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Swinney tax plan's missing £700m



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Published Date:
12 March 2008
JOHN Swinney, the finance secretary, took the biggest gamble of his political career yesterday – staking the SNP government's fate on a new tax that will hit middle- to high-income earners across Scotland.
Unveiling his plans to replace the council tax with a local income tax (LIT) – to come in just before the next election – Mr Swinney insisted he was not targeting hard-working families.

But the plan immediately ran into opposition from an unlikely alliance of Labour, the Tories, the business community and some unions, as the new tax already has a potential black hole of more than £710 million.

Mr Swinney admitted LIT would not raise as much as the council tax, leaving a shortfall of £280 million a year that the Scottish Government would have to find.

Yesterday, he could not say where that would come from, and conceded that he was relying on getting back £400 million a year from the UK government in council tax benefit – a move Westminster has rejected already – to make his sums add up.

In addition, it will cost at least £30 million a year to collect the tax, and that is if Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs can be persuaded to change its stance of collecting only national taxes.

Mr Swinney said the new tax of 3p in the pound on all earnings above £5,435 would be fairer than the council tax as it would be based on ability to pay.

He said many more Scots, including pensioners and the low-paid, would be better off with LIT and that only the highest earners would pay more.

"The vast majority will be better off and the local income tax will benefit most those earning the least," he said.

The finance secretary claimed that 80 per cent of Scots would either be better off or see no change in their bills, with only 18 per cent worse off. He added: "These proposals represent a reduction in the tax burden on Scotland. That will be welcomed across Scotland and is a key part of our plans to create a wealthier and fairer nation."

The Scottish Government published projections forecasting that only households with earnings of more than £70,000 a year would be worse off.

However, independent research by the accountancy firm PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) for The Scotsman revealed last night that there would be many more losers under LIT than the Scottish Government has predicted, and that hundreds of thousands of middle-income earners in all parts of Scotland would be worse off.

PwC broke down the wage levels by individual council tax bands – something Scottish Government projections failed to do – to give a more detailed picture of the winners and losers.

It found that single people in average Band D homes earning more than £35,000 would have to pay more, and that those in more expensive Band G homes would pay more if they earned above £53,000.

It also worked out that couples in Band D homes would start to pay more once their combined income hit £49,000, while couples in the more expensive Band G homes would pay more if their combined income totalled £75,000 or more.

Iain McMillan, director of the Scottish CBI, warned Mr Swinney and Alex Salmond, the First Minister, that their plans would "torpedo" attempts to create an enterprise economy in Scotland.

"Higher levels of income tax in Scotland will send the wrong message to people in England and overseas about Scotland's tax regime, because Scotland's effective basic and higher rates of tax will be the highest in the UK," he said.

Warning of the potentially disastrous effects on the SNP at the next election, Mr McMillan added: "They should be mindful that those who gain will have short memories – those who lose will have long memories, and there will be many of them."

Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, described the LIT plan as a "gift to the super rich", because it did not tax unearned income.

She said: "It will make Scots workers the highest taxed in the UK. This 'Scottish jobs tax' will hit the pay packets of every hard-working Scot.

It will also inflate house prices and make it even harder for first-time buyers to get on the property ladder."

And Derek Brownlee, the Scottish Tories' finance spokesman, added: "The really damaging thing is the signal this sends out that we would be the highest-taxed part of the UK.

"That would be disastrous in terms of attracting workers and trying to get Scots to return, particularly when we compete internationally and with the rest of the UK."

"This would be really bad for the financial services industry in Edinburgh, and we don't want to be putting obstacles in its way."

Matt Smith, the Scottish secretary of the trade union Unison, said ministers would either have to set the new tax at 6.5p in the pound, not 3p, to generate the same amount of money as the council tax, or they would have to be prepared for cuts in services.

He said: "The introduction of a further tax on wages will either make many families worse off, or lead to cuts in public services. The government can't have it both ways."

Professor James Mitchell, of the politics department at Strathclyde University, said he found the SNP's move towards LIT perplexing because the Scottish Government had previously done so well in targeting "middle Scotland".

He added: "There will be a section of middle-class Scotland which will lose out and, given that the SNP managed to appeal to people across all classes at the election, they are in danger of alienating a significant body of people at the next election.

"While these people are not likely to be Labour voters, there is every reason to believe they may go back to a revived Conservative Party."

SWINNEY UNABLE TO GLOSS OVER THE CRACKS WITH A LOW-KEY LAUNCH OF POLICY THAT LOOKS SET TO FAIL

WHEN John Swinney handed out copies of his consultation paper on local income tax yesterday, something wasn't quite right.

The 50-page document was stapled together on one corner, there was no glossy cover, no colourful folder – nothing, in fact, to suggest this was a key policy announcement by the Scottish Government.

It was almost as if the finance secretary didn't really believe the policy would ever get approved and was merely going through the motions, politically, of launching an initiative which he knew was destined to fail.

After all, it is now clear that there are so many holes in this policy package that it is the political equivalent of a mosquito net.

The first big one is financial – the quite startling black hole of £700 million – £400 million of which the UK government will not return in council tax benefit and £280 million in the shortfall from existing council tax payments, as well as collection costs.

Then there is the lack of aid from Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, the opposition of a majority of MSPs and huge questions over the collection of the tax.

Mr Swinney had to introduce this policy because it was in his party's election manifesto and it was in the manifesto because SNP activists voted for it. It may be "fairer" for many voters, but it will damage Scotland's economy, and Mr Swinney knows that.

There is a feeling at Holyrood that the Scottish Government is waiting for this one to fail so everybody else, particularly the UK government, can be blamed. That way, Mr Swinney can keep the party on side, blame the UK government and protect the economy – not that he would ever admit it, of course.

Q & A: TAXING QUESTIONS

Q: What does the SNP mean by a local income tax?

A: A direct replacement for the council tax. Every earner who currently pays income tax would have to pay an extra tax on their earnings. It would be set centrally at 3p on the basic and higher rates of income tax.

Q: How would it be collected?

A: The Scottish Government hopes Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs will collect the tax and hand it over. HMRC has yet to be consulted and has shown no enthusiasm to get involved. If HMRC does not collect the money, the Scottish Government would have to set up a Scottish Collection Agency either as a public body or by inviting private companies to tender for the work. Alternatively, councils could be asked to do the collecting themselves.

Q: How much will this cost?

A: Ministers claim collection costs of £30 million a year if done by HMRC. That would rise significantly if done by a new agency. There are no estimates of that cost.

Q: How much will the income tax raise?

A: The SNP believes the local income tax will raise £1.7 billion, £280 million less than is raised by the council tax at the moment. That gap will have to be filled by the Scottish Government.

Q: Will it be shared out equally among councils?

A: Ministers have not decided whether the money should go to each local authority on the basis of what is raised in each area or divided more equitably among councils or even allocated on the basis of deprivation or need.

Q: Who would have to pay?

A: Anybody who is classed as a "Scottish taxpayer". Broadly, this is someone who lives in the UK for income tax purposes and Scotland is the part of the UK with which they have the closest connection during the year. In practice, it will probably mean people whose main home is in Scotland.

Q: What about companies based in England with employees in Scotland?

A: This is a potential problem as these firms might not co-operate with the new tax in the way Scottish companies will have to. But John Swinney, the finance secretary, said he hoped HMRC would help identify all Scottish taxpayers working for English companies and have their tax adjusted accordingly.

Q: What about unearned income?

A: The local income tax would only affect earned income. People who live off their investments will not be liable to pay the income tax.

Q: Could the 3p rate vary?

A: Yes. One of the options is for councils to be given the ability to set their own rates. This is what the Lib Dems want and the SNP might have to concede this to get the support it needs to get the policy through parliament. Householders in different parts of the country could pay different rates. Although the SNP wants to introduce a 3p flat rate across the country, there is nothing to stop future governments raising this. The 3p rate is not capped, unlike the so-called Tartan Tax, which is capped at 3p in the pound by the Scotland Act.

Q: When will it be introduced?

A: Scottish ministers believe it will be before the elections in 2011. However, this depends on the support of other parties to get it through Holyrood quickly, and the co-operation of Westminster and Whitehall, neither of which appears likely. Experts have warned it could take six years, or more.

Q: What about the money Scottish councils get at present in council tax benefit?

A: A big problem. At the moment, the Treasury provides £400 million in funding to Scottish councils in the form of council tax benefit, covering the costs of those who cannot afford council tax. The Treasury has said it will stop paying this if the Scottish Government scraps council tax. Scottish ministers believe the UK government has a duty to pay this money but, if it loses the £400 million, it will find it hard to balance the books. All calculations have been done on the basis of continuing to receive the £400 million.

Q: What about people with second homes?

A: Ministers intend to tax people with their first and second homes in Scotland in the same way they are taxed now, with full council tax on one and a discounted, up to 90 per cent, rate on the other. Under the new plans, householders would be liable to local income tax for their first home and would be charged a fee for their second home; the rate for this has not been set yet.

People with second homes outwith Scotland, say in England, would be able to choose which home they want classed as their main home. The rich would probably choose English homes for a main residence to avoid paying the local income tax in Scotland.

Winners and losers in local tax plans

Rhona Irving

CRUNCHING the numbers, it would appear most people in Scotland would be better off paying 3p extra in income tax rather than council tax.

However, there are some questions worth asking.

The obvious winners from local income tax would be pensioners. Under the current council tax system, it is often retired people who are affected most as they have low incomes, but are sometimes in large family homes in high council tax bands.

A local income tax system appears to balance this as the 3p provision cannot be used on savings and investments, so pensioners who have invested wisely will come out on top.

The higher earners will be the losers and, within that group, a potentially difficult issue would be people with second homes south of the Border.

A local income tax would be decided for most people according to their principal residence, and the simplest way to decide that would be on the address registered with the employer for tax and National Insurance.

There are a number of high-earners who spend a significant part of their week working in England and come home to Scotland at weekends. There are also people who work in Scotland and spend weekends in England. Many of these people own or rent a property in each place.

There could be a choice for them, depending on interpretation of the legislation, between stating that their main home is in England or Scotland.

Another complication will be the perception of international business looking to invest in Scotland. A regular question asked of tax advisers is whether Scotland has a different tax rate to the rest of the UK and, so far, the answer has been "no". An increase of 3p in the pound could be a disincentive, and it is a complex message to say we have higher income tax but no council tax.

There are several areas which would need to be ironed out through the consultation process. This is not to say a local income tax would not work, or that most people would not be better off, but it is not as simple to set up as it first appears.

• Rhona Irving is head of tax at PricewaterhouseCoopers Scotland.

The full article contains 2486 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

DER FUHRER,

12/03/2008 00:07:45
Swinney was lost for words on Newsnight Scotland last night thats for sure.

Gordon Brewer asked him time and time again how much someone that lived on investment income would pay under the new scheme.

Swinney could only say it depends on the circumstances.

So Brewer asked him how much somebody on £100K of investment income would pay under the scheme, and Swinney still could not answer him.

Mr Swinney is one of the brightest politicians we have too.

Swinney was not honest enough to admit that such a person would pay nothing which is a bit worrying.
2

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 12/03/2008 00:17:01
Well, he can't really revel in taxing the rich more can he?

So, if you take the top 5% richest of the population, they'll pay around 10 times more under LIT, as a agroup, than they would under the Council Tax.

Excellent news from the SNP!

Now, the real question is will London try to withhold money that legally belongs to Scotland out of spite?
3

DER FUHRER,

12/03/2008 00:19:40
#2........... I hope Swinney is successful in bringing in the new tax. He still has a few hurdles to jump though.

It looks like London definitely will be holding onto the £400 million. That is no surprise though, that was always going to be the case.
4

DER FUHRER,

12/03/2008 00:20:55
#3 Gordon Brewer is certainly the best interviewer we have. He made mincemeat of Swinney tonight.
5

britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 00:24:50
gordon brewers partisan attack , is typical b b c , can i get you a comfy cushion , wendy ? vs get lost specky , your nat sums are a joke . we wont get anything but anti s n p propaganda . gordon brown has demanded that unflinching position from the corporation and the latest lickspittle gave a lecture almost immediately to parrot the same pro british nationalist anti scottish nationalist as his benefactor expects
6

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 12/03/2008 00:27:49
Ah, he was going for cheap headlines. Not a bad question but Swinney can hardly revel in taxing the rich more can he? He's the finance minister for the whole country. It was a bit unfair.

Will he be so tenacious in asking Wendy if she'll be demanding Scotland's 450M. Or will she be avoiding Newsnight on the subject?

So, Will Wendy be demanding Scotland's money?
7

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 12/03/2008 00:29:25
AM2, how many local income taxes could Northern Rock pay for?
8

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 12/03/2008 00:30:16
What about the low take-up of council tax benefit among the poor because of its complexity?
9

,

12/03/2008 00:34:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

The Strategist,

12/03/2008 00:34:52
The Herald says the hole is only £500!

#1 You must have been watching a different channel. Swinney answered the question about three times. Brewer just wasn't listening. Maybe he didn't want to.

11

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 00:40:48
AM2
Good Evening to you.
But saying a that a policy is unworkable, which is not even in place yet, is jumping the gun a wee bit though?

Oh and the sky hasn't fallen down yet either;-)
12

Jwil,

12/03/2008 00:45:32
Another appalling performance from the would-be Jeremy Paxman look-alike Gordon Brewer tonight on TV when interviewing John Swinney. He was like a dog with a bone on only one particular questioned which was answered by several times by Swinney, viz. the non-contributions paid by people living on investment income.

Brewer wouldn't let Swinney answer questions, interrupting him continuously. We could have heard a lot more from Swinney if Brewer had let him answer the questions and accepted what he was saying. Instead we got a dismal interview which achieved very little for either participant or more importantly for the viewers.

Where does the BBC get these people?
13

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 00:45:45
18
Is it weary?
14

subrosa,

12/03/2008 00:48:00
About Newsnight. When the libdems/labour were in power and John Swinney was leader of the SNP he was usually the opposition spokesman against major policies such as this. Yet we've only had Ms Alexander twice on Newsnight since last May. Twice to defend herself, nothing to do with policies. The opposition stick up a stand-in every time.
15

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 00:50:50
21
Do you mean "heavy".

Tsk. You with your encyclopedic knowledge.An that.
16

gorgie resident,

12/03/2008 00:51:27
as I read this everyone in work will pay 3p in the pound from there earnings surly that means if both parents and say 2 children in the same household are in work and pay income tax they are all going to have to pay dosn't seem fair to me LOOKS LIKE THE POLL TAX IS BACK
17

,

12/03/2008 00:56:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

,

12/03/2008 00:59:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
19

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 00:59:55
24
Of course AM2. I forgot about other policies which governments tried to implement.Like council tax...
Just how wise was Thatchers government in that case?

Sorry, I'm just assuming you were/are a thatcherite.
20

Rubbersbutnotrulers,

12/03/2008 01:09:53
Is this the way to Amarillo?

http://www.break.com/index/kosovo.html
21

Rubbersbutnotrulers,

12/03/2008 01:14:50
31

Cudnae gie a hoot whit ye rote at 1:09 niver mind last august, pal.
22

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 01:19:13
AM2
What is this executive you speak of?

And why do you hate them so much?

(Is it money?)Do you think they will steal it all?
23

,

12/03/2008 01:20:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 01:22:37
lickspittle in the sense of being the subservient creature of the current administration , as in, completely dependent to the powers that rule us ,for his lucrative position , and its continuance . i suppose that was the sense in which i used the word . as for where you should go . i wonder what hen broon would advise??
25

Conan the Librarian™,

12/03/2008 01:22:58
35
Ye ken how tae get fouk oan yer side Scott webb, Eh?
26

Ginster's Pastie,

Grangemouth 12/03/2008 01:26:18
Look closer at it chaps:

As 25 has already commented, a family with several income earners will be paying £££££.

A family of dole bludgers will pay £00000.

Welcome to even more social crutches for the 20% of Glasgow on long term benefits and no need to get the fingers out.

Poll Tax mark 2.
27

Alan Reid,

Aberdeen 12/03/2008 01:36:30
#1, "So Brewer asked him how much somebody on £100K of investment income would pay under the scheme, and Swinney still could not answer him"
How many people do you know that are on this income?
28

Ginster's Pastie,

Grangemouth 12/03/2008 01:41:06
#40 - approximately 1% of the population, who have around 10% of the income/wealth.

Which won't be taxable.
29

thewitness,

12/03/2008 01:57:18
#38 Ginster's Pastie, Grangemouth

The only relevant economic and political question now is this.
1. The Bank Of England stays?
2. The Bank Of England goes?

Maybe, the so called scroungers you refer to can be compensated for the Central Bank THEFT of purchasing power and for the inflation rate lies.

By my calculations the average giro should be around £400 per week (very conservative) had we stayed on a sound money footing for the last 50 years instead of allowing the BOE to debase the money/purchasing power.

You said..."20% of Glasgow on long term benefits and no need to get the fingers out."

I disagree, economic freedom means the right not to work if a person so chooses. The people who need to get their fingers out are the central banks.

I would break the fingers by returning control of money and credit supply to an independant Scottish (and English) government.

When are the SNP going to make clear their position on "the money" in a free Scotland? The silence is very telling!



30

britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 02:15:26
what their 10% is totally beyond tax ? or just for the 3% that the government is to levy for local services ? i dont feel great that " 1% " of people wont pay because it gives people like you a chance to deny fair taxation to the, by your arithmetic, 99% that remain , i suspect if it was even fiscally neutral a way WOULD be found to collect it. i find it significant you would prefer a costly bureaucracy if it would satisfy an agenda determined solely by politics
31

britsout,

camelon 12/03/2008 02:15:38
what their 10% is totally beyond tax ? or just for the 3% that the government is to levy for local services ? i dont feel great that " 1% " of people wont pay because it gives people like you a chance to deny fair taxation to the, by your arithmetic, 99% that remain , i suspect if it was even fiscally neutral a way WOULD be found to collect it. i find it significant you would prefer a costly bureaucracy if it would satisfy an agenda determined solely by politics
32

Brendan the Scozzie,

The most overgoverned nation on the planet 12/03/2008 02:44:23
The equation is dead simple:

More Government = More Taxes

You should have thought about that before you voted in all these 'wannabees' for politicians.

The losers are all the Scots people paying their hard earned to keep those oxygen thiefs living in their Holyrood Palace.

Local councils, SMP's Euro MP's and London MP's - how many people does it take to represent you and empty the bins?

What a joke.
33

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 12/03/2008 04:05:55
Any taxation scheme will have winners and losers. The council tax (son of rates) is unfair.

Scotland needs less government, a centrally levied income tax is, despit it's faults, the best and certainly most efficient taxation form.

Kind of explains Labour's resistance though dosen't it? - anti efficiency, anti progress and shamefully anti the democratic whishes of the people of Scotland.


34

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 12/03/2008 04:07:58
#45 Brendan

LIT will mean less government, period.

It's the labour party who resist efficient governance.
35

Mallory,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 04:27:07
#45's got it - More Government = More Taxes

Why do we need so many well paid people to 'govern us'? Getting rid of a layer of 'local government' and increasing the public sector retirement age to 65 would save a fair amount. Setting annual targets to reduce expenditure would be another..
36

terry osser,

morden 12/03/2008 05:40:28
its a tax on earned income not on investment income. soon it will be financially not worth working
37

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/03/2008 06:19:10
Mr Swinney is no fool, he realises this is seriously flawed as a workable policy. It's becoming obvious that this LIT scheme was never meant to be actually put into practice, just another stick to beat the Labour/LibDem executive with. I suspect the more balanced of the SNP policy makers intended to have it removed before they took over in 2011 but to their horror they actually won last year - that wasn't in their plans. Now they're stuck with a manifesto of uncosted and unworkable dogma and bravado as a programme of government. No wonder they jettisoned as much of the truly barking stuff as early as they could. They are left with LIT, very popular undoubtedly but as the weeks and months go on it will become increasing obvious that the sums don't add up. A huge cut in tax where almost everybody benefits but no services are cut or jobs lost? When something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.
Watch out for the SNP's exit strategy - blaming England.
38

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 12/03/2008 06:35:40
If this tax goes through the SNP are likely to lose every last vote of the offshore industry in one suicidal blow.

The way I see it is that we need to decide nationally if local services should be financed according to availability and usage or should they come out of taxes.
If they are to come out of taxes this should be done for the whole country and this will avoid dummy spitting by Westminster.
39

Dave Scott,

Alban 12/03/2008 07:04:36
12 thewitness: Zionist conspiracy huh? Adolf and the Czars must be cheering you on from the dark side. A cheap antisemitic soundbite that reveals exactly what kind of nationalism you have. Have you no sense of history, conscience or truth?
40

Alec M,

Falkirk 12/03/2008 07:39:56
#52 - By even alluding to the posting by this lunatic racist you give 'it', however minimally, a recognition which 'it' does not deserve. ('It' refers to the poster, not its comment.)
41

DonaldK,

Brussels 12/03/2008 07:48:13
To all those getting irate about this new tax being implemented - calm down, it won't be. The Hootsmon has called it absolutely correctly on this occasion - the SNP are waiting for this policy to be rejected by a combination of Holyrood opposition/ HMRC and UK government, and then blame them all for the failure. I'm sure they realise the electoral damage they would be doing themselves if this progressed into actual legislation.
42

Gdgy,

dnudy 12/03/2008 07:52:55
Swinney can't count, can't barely speak on occasions and the SNPites think the exposure of his problems on Newsnight was down to partial interviewing by a pro-Labour interviwer...You could not make it up!

Lets get real and cut the paranoia - the SNP are screwing up and unravelling before our eyes...I guess its time for wee Lec to raise some issues, grab some headlines about.....what Scotland's entry for eurovision would be!!!!
43

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 12/03/2008 07:53:03
You'd think a party desperate for power and the chance to prove itself worthy of leading an independent nation would have some seriously sensible economic proposals.

Taxing hard work/earned income is just the wrong way to encourage investment/innovation in Scotland, so why is this route being followed? SNP is busy killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. It must be run by unionists!
44

David MacVicar,

web 12/03/2008 07:53:20
The gap in funding is worrying but the agents of doom such as AM2 grossly overdstate their case.

EG. from AM2 "killing the idea that the plan could cut taxes." WRONG, the ideas is to redistribute the tax burden more fairly overall than the council tax. It does do that as the institute for fiscal studies has shown.
I think the IFS holds more weight than Britsman or AM2s half truths.

The civil servants produce an estimate of 1.7 Billion raised, that is the only cerditiabmle figure we can take any assumptions from.

The 400Million as part of the block grant, was our money, is our money; and will remain our money. Arguing otherwise without changing the Scotland act is promoting theft. UK will not get to hold onto the 400M for long and just adds weight to total fiscal autonomy for Scotland to put a halt to the revenue rape from Westminster.

Another half truth - costr of new centralised system estimate = 30 Million. How much does the current collection system cost and how much can be saved? Estmimatres please Britsman. Water bills still have to be sent but no more council band admin and billing.

I am glad Swinney was grilled. The SNP have many questions to answer and this tax is far from ideal.

Everyone should remember that we need to compare the SNP proposals to the alternative proposed from Labour:
a) No council tax freeze
b) New banding, needing a rebanding exercise (costing more public admin moneys) and meaning (obviously)an increase in most peoples council tax.
45

GLW,

Tiblisi & Falkirk 12/03/2008 07:56:32
A system raises less money and cost more to administer???
46

brownlie,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 07:57:01
Oh dear Hamish, what a balance article you present. Would the "unlikely" alliance be between two unionist parties who have had years to propose a better alternative - what a surprise. You also mention some unions but could only quote one member of Unison - I am a member of Unison and she certainly did not speak on my behalf or any of my colleagues. Was it just co-incidence that the "independent" opinion was from Price Waterhouse Cooper who have been given millions of pounds of Westminster Government money to advise on projects such as PFI resulting in frequent expensive failures.
47

David MacVicar,

National non allegiance to britain day 12/03/2008 08:04:10
Any shortfall obviously means people are paying less overall and extra cash needs to be found - some can come from the block grant - like the cash found from the council tax freeze. Surely, having a shortfall is far, far superior to a tax increase!!

The difference here is that we have a CAN DO government, far from ideal but a vast improvement.
The BritNats arguments are all based on Can't do, not allowed to do etc

I am sure the 3% figure came originally from the +- 3% tax raising powers. If the SNP had proposed eg. 3.5% the Britnats would be shouting "Britain says Scotland does not have this power, you are not allowed"...various stomach churning stuff.

Well we now have taken 'allowed'. Can do, will do, our money, our country, our government. Get used to it.
48

It's me!,

12/03/2008 08:06:42
All parties know that council tax is unfair because it targets only those who are vulnerable to legal action if it is unpaid. Many high earners pay nothing at all for local services while low earners and pensioners with modest incomes subsidise them. A much better idea is for it to be replaced and collected alongside vat UK wide.

It will cost nothing extra to collect because HMRC will just process a payment;

If you have the money to spend you will pay be it the purchase of a Porsche or a Rangers football top irrespective of income through employment, bank interest, dividends etc;

The money will be allocated to the area in which it is collected, easy enough in these days of postcodes;

If I make a purchase in Lerwick or Truro I will be paying for some small way to the cost of services in these areas and

Costs saved by no longer needing council collection agencies duplicated all over the UK.

All it takes is politicians with some guts to do it. At least the SNP is trying to take a fairer approach to local finance.
49

Sile,

Planet Earth 12/03/2008 08:10:11
Just remember that when your POLL TAX mark2 is worked out and implemented, the Govt in Westminster are your Brethren so when they don't supply the shortfall, blame them and not the English, They are prone to handcuffing pensioners and putting them in prison down here for not paying council tax..
50

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:10:14
As nobody seems to have pointed out, any capital gains over the current threshold (which is probably around £8000) would be liable to pay a large amount in Capital Gains Tax.

This is another reason why Scotland needs full fiscal autonomy, because anybody earning gains from investments in Scotland, pays Capital Gains Tax to Westminster.

Just think about all the other tax we Scots pay to Westminster:

Income Tax, National Insurance, VAT, Stamp Duty, Capital Gains Tax, Inheritance Tax.

You name it, Westminster collects it.

How can they possibly argue that it is too complicated to collect a Local Income Tax, when they already have a massively complex tax system which taxes when we get our wages, and then taxes us again when we spend it.

John Swinney couldn't possibly have answered a hypothetical question without knowing all the details. Anyway, under full fiscal autonomy, Scotland would collect all Scottish taxes, including Capital Gains Tax, which would remedy the example given.
51

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:15:16
And don't forget all the other taxes:

BBC licence fee, road tax, fuel duty, lottery, etc.

They take a massive amount of cash from Scotland, and that's even before oil is considered, and then give us back some pocket money, if we are good.
52

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:16:58
Oh, and the oil windfall tax.

And the tax on all of us Scots for Westminster having to support an English bank.
53

donald,

glasgow 12/03/2008 08:21:55
Hamish's brain missing.
54

Xena - Warrior Princess,

12/03/2008 08:24:45
It's the Poll Tax by another name. I agree with what has been said earlier - the SNP are just waiting for the Holyrood opposition to vote against this. So would I be just as well stopping work? By the time you add on Water rates I am not any better off plus the fact that they can put the tax up at any time to make up for a shortfall.
55

mr angry,

ayrshire 12/03/2008 08:31:32
Whilst supporting the SNP, I hope this one fails, it is very flawed and will end up with a minority being fleeced to keep the wasters and spongers in money. This country needs to realise that people who work hard and make money should be applauded and not robbed, the lazy good for nothing spongers should be publicly embarassed. How is it possible for us to have any unemployed when foreigners can flood in and get jobs. Get the money from forcing the wasters to take jobs and use the tax they pay to improve life for everybody. Maximum payout on dole should be less than minimum wage , no free houses etc , and get your lazy erse out to work within 6 months or it is stopped.
Scotland will never flourish whilst we have so many lazy good for nothing spongers bleeding the hard workers dry.
56

danielrober,

12/03/2008 08:34:28
Before i moved down to London (for work) and before Browns new tax system i was in a supporter of the LIT concept. But after a few years here i can see so much income that is not based or 'derived' through income taxable methods. Bounties, Bounese, Gifts, Wins, 'oh that was Lucky' and of course 'DISCOUNTS', all these avoid income tax. Not to mention all the None-Doms, many who now have govenment jobs.

Why not simply have two new council tax bands a higher and lower catergory? May be combined with a more understanding collection system.
57

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 08:41:59
I support independence and the SNP but am not in favour of local income tax. My main reason for this is that it means the end of property tax. The old system of rates and the current Council tax system, at least to some extent, tax people on the value of their property. In a period when we have seen house prices increase hugely this seems no bad thing.

The only value I can see in an LIT for the SNP is that it forces the Treasury to identify clearly everyone whose tax should "belong" to Scotland. If Scotland is to be independent at some point in the future then this separating out of Scottish taxpayers from other UK taxpayers is clearly an important step and LIT provides the possibility of establishing that now and helps clear the way for future independence. This I suspect is one of the key drivers - albeit not openly spoken of - for an LIT.
58

Linda,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:46:44
Do the sums (Note pensoiners have higher personal allowance)

Edinburgh Council Tax

Band A £779 Salary per person
£10,000 £ 137
Band B £ 909 £15,000 £ 278
Band C £1039 £20,000 £ 437
Band D £1169 £25,000 £ 587
Band E £1428 £30,000 £ 737
Band F £1688 £35,000 £ 966 (at Higher Tax Rate)
Band G £1948 (or £886 if at 20%) Band H £2338
59

Paul Spencer,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 08:49:03
#50 and #70 Couldnt agree more, this sounds a total nightmare, both in terms of implementation with too many cooks stirring the pot, not to mention the fact that there could be a "brain drain", tho that is more likely to happen amongst middle income earners - teachers, middle management, social workers and police etc,who are hardest hit, the very glue that gives our creaking economy viability. If the SNP had some sense it would stop banging on about oil, and develop a fiscal model that gives us a genuine advantage against our competitors, it is the only way that "indi-sceptics" might come round to a view that going alone is viable, otherwise the "tartan jihad" will sound as ridiculous as those in the Middle East. As somebody who voted yes yes, I feel that if we want independence, then lets go for it, but be warned its not going to be nice, services will be cut etc, and if we fail it is only ourselves we have to blame, I'd rather take that chance than this continual bleating about the English.
60

Sgurr,

12/03/2008 08:51:39
Just as people in the North of England have been moving house to villages over the border for the better services, I expect we will see some very wealthy scots become "non-dom" (to coin a wrong phrase), in the sense that they will live in places like the NE and commute...or they will own 2 houses and be registered elsewhere.

Personally, I know that my household will be stuffed by this tax as we probably creep into the top 10%. I'm not expecially happy about it...but then, all systems hurt some disproportionately. I hope this doesn't hurt Edinburgh's financial services sector. "Move to Edinburgh - get taxed more than you do in London" is not a great slogan.
61

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:53:10
and the headline has got it wrong, don't you think!!!

Should be something like:

"Westminster Threatens to Withold £400 Million of Scots Money if we Want to Scrap the Tax System that they Introduced".

Westminster won't have a snowballs chance in h*ll of holding onto that money, but they will try everything in the book of tricks to delay paying it. IT IS OUR MONEY. If they don't like it, they can lump it, and we go our own way, and take ALL our money back, thank you very much.

Will bendy wendy, nicol sleazin, and boldy goldie press Westminster for our £400 million, or will they support the Westminster cause before the Scottish cause, and help Westminster withold it???
Can wait to see what a total hash they make of it. This will backfire on them BIGTIME!!!
62

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 08:57:48
Lets remember the poll tax:

There were four of us living in a Band D house, mum, dad, me and my brother, and we were paying over £2000 in council tax.

Meanwhile Lord so and so living down the road and living with his wife in his big castle was paying less than half that.

So it's a bit rich of the unionists talking about what's fair and what's unfair.

Get real.
63

Radical Mac,

The Kingdom of Fife 12/03/2008 08:59:31
A local income tax is the only way forward. It would be harder to dodge than rates, poll tax and the community charge (son of rates). I earn in the higher tax bracket on occasion and would be delighted with the tax. Why should the poor pay the same as the rich this tax is fair. I would encourage the Lib Dems to support the SNP rather than argue over detail. It is after all their policy too. Not too many exemptions though I remember people with artistic earnings of millions flocking to Eire in the past because they were exempt.
64

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 09:00:44
And yes, it totally ignored ability to pay.
65

Sgurr,

12/03/2008 09:03:00
#80 - the very rich will always find ways around taxation. Those "in the middle" will lose out. I work hard for my money, which is already subject to income tax. Why can't I live in a small house and pay less tax if I want to? To be honest, this might force my retirement.
66

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 09:03:15
#79 - HughB - that doesn't sound like a good argument to support LIT as that it is exactly the kind of scenario FunkyDunky (#78) seems to be thinking about but under LIT. House prices being what they are, many children are living longer at home with their parents. Thes plans by the SNP are about taxing their income but paying no attention to the value of the property they live in.
67

Linda,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 09:03:22
HughB

To pay £2000 under 3P in £ LIT you would need a combined income of £89,000. So why should you pay the same as a one household neigbour on average earnings.

Scotsman of course does not give examples of the vast majority of winners under LIT.
68

AntiPCman,

12/03/2008 09:05:31
Re 50
I think you have hit the nail on the head. I have a lot of time for Mr. Swinney but he is treading water or is it more like treacle with this policy. It is not thought through because it was always going to be a headline grabber not a serious piece of fiscal sense.
It is a shame because the Nats are thinking out of the box even though they do not know what to do about a great deal of governance - it does show that the standard of senior civil servants is poor - in their advice and experience. Bring back some old heads!
69

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 09:08:26
#84 Linda - Why should we ignore the value of the property someone owns when considering how much tax they should pay on their wealth?
70

,

12/03/2008 09:08:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
71

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 09:09:09
#84 Linda,

We paid over £2000 in poll tax, even though we only had one house between 4.

Exactly. LIT is the answer.
72

Miss H,

12/03/2008 09:10:35
It's interesting the perception that a single person earning more than £35,000 or a couple bringing in £53,000 are middle earners.

The median salary in Scotland is £19,282.


73

Linda,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 09:14:50
#86 Mike,

Value of property is taxed through capital gains or inheritance tax.
It is not a measure of current wealth (ie 100% mortgage).
Scottish government should have independence or full fiscal automny then we would get a coherant taxation policy.
74

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 12/03/2008 09:17:03
#6 britsout
"Gordon Brewer's partisan attack"
I watched the interview last night and Swinney looked like a rabbit trapped in the headlights. Brewer asked him a perfectly reasonable question: what about someone who has a £500k house and £100k a year from investment income. How much LIT would he pay? The answer of course is ZERO! So the super rich would pay no tax but a retired person witha taxable pension of £12,000 would pay 25p in the pound. There's fairness for you!

Swinney refused to answer a perfectly valid question at least 6 times and revealed himself as a loathesome, slimy politician - incapable of telling the truth even when it was plain for all to see.

This is nothing to do with being partisan - it is everything to do with Brewer putting these lying politicians to the test - whether Labour, SNP, Fibdem or Conservative. They and all their pals are swimming in a trough of taxpayers money - along with all their 'payroll voters' in the herds of useless quangos that now govern us - including over 120 managers in the NHS in Scotland who now earn more than £100k a year. There is no hope of reform through the existing parties- they are all utterly corrupt; the last bastion is a free press that can ask hard questions. The other last hope is that people like you do not give unswerving loyalty to your own party politicians. If they are dissembling idiots - as Swinney was last night - call them to account. This tax plan is a non-starter as others have pointed out. Watch the Salmond's exit strategy: "It wasnae us - it was them nasty English people wot did it!"
75

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 09:18:00
The SNP argue that they are not constrained by the 3% tax varying powers when setting a local tax.

The SNP further claim that the £400m of Council Tax benefit payable under the old system should be transferable to the new system.

I can't say I agree with either of these assertions, but let us for argument's sake assume they are correct.

Why, then, have the SNP set the LIT rate at 3%? We know from their own figures that a 3% rate doesn't generate anything like as much as the current Council Tax rates, and that's not counting the £70 million diverted from central funds to enable the freeze this year. The true shortfall is about £300m a year.

So why not set LIT at a rate which would make it equivalent to Council Tax? Why instead introduce it alongside a massive tax cut?

The only reason I can come up with is that without the tax cut, LIT would be a huge vote loser, as the number of people whose taxes would go up would rocket, and the amount that would be lost from non-taxpayers would become politically unpalatable.

Surely this means that this blanket form of LIT is unworkable in the long term?
76

Paddi,

12/03/2008 09:18:00
What a truly embarrassing performance by Swinney last night.
77

Mike Partick,

12/03/2008 09:19:48
#90 Linda -

You forgot to mention the Council Tax, which, at least partly, is a form of property tax.

Given how much property has gone up in value in recent years and that this has greatly benefitted particular sections of the population more than others, I think we should be considering increasing property taxes rather than getting rid of them.
78

Nikostratos,

12/03/2008 09:20:34
#89 Miss H

I thought it was around £25,000. And anyway what about the self employed how will they pay this tax weekly monthly,yearly.

Let alone how self employed people with small business are able to avoid declaring their real income.. Unlike the employed person on P.A.Y.E.

Most self employed people i know are income rich but tax poor.......
79

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 12/03/2008 09:23:09
Swinney could have been better prepared for Brewer's question, but while I am all for making the rich pay their way the example of a person on 100k investment income must be few and far between as as many have said those that are in that position are probably all avoiding normal income tax etc. ITV had a programme on earlier in the evening and only one banker (forget his name) came forward to admit he was only paying around 10% tax and that while he would be willing to go to 13 or 14% or so but 18% would really hurt. Why doesn't Brewer get these guys into the studio and give them a hard time.
80

Rob,

Moray 12/03/2008 09:25:30
Actually, I found this all a bit of a relief. This is so clearly the work of an incompetent that no-one is going to take it seriously. Swinney is totally clueless and should never be allowed to hold an office like this.

The plan to buy the SNP votes with Westminster money won't work: the real government isn't going to help them implement this, nor is it going to stump up the cash for the deficit it creates. The Liberal support for this shows how cretinous that party really is.

What it has done is guarantee the continuation of Council Tax for at least another 5 years whilst some new fangled socialist alternative is dreamed up. Don't hold your breath but hang on for some breath-taking rises in Council Tax coming quite soon to a county near you.
81

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/03/2008 09:28:58
#96 There are tens of thousands of people who avoid income tax in Edinburgh alone. As a company director I have the opportunity to do so - I could pay myself in dividends, or, as many people do, simply make my major expenses into company expenses - my mortgage paid as office rental, my car paid as a company vehicle, and so on. I choose not to do this because, as it happens, I believe in the taxation system, and don't believe in cheating it. But many people consider such a set up as a standard perk of company ownership.
82

Queen D,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 09:31:45
I must have been watching a different Newsnight last night.
All I saw was an interviewer who would not let Mr Swinney answer the question. I thought him thoroughly rude and badgering.
Bear in mind that the very wealthy do pay tax on their investments and there are very few of them !
I think a local income tax makes sense , in fact I believe that the Tories were split between that and the poll tax. They opted for the poll tax and gave themselves a major problem in collecting it.
83

Queen D,

Glasgow 12/03/2008 09:34:27
BTW, the Herald says 500 million, this paper 700 million and Newsnight 400 million.
I don't suppose anyone knows the true figure??
84

Fairfax,

12/03/2008 09:35:13
Miss H (89): "It's interesting the perception that a single person earning more than Â