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Salmond tax plan in tatters



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Published Date: 02 March 2008
THE SNP's flagship plan to scrap council tax has been wrecked by the UK Government after ministers categorically ruled out helping to fund the radical reform.
UK Work and Pensions Secretary James Purnell infuriated Nationalists by declaring there would be no financial assistance for the policy from south of the border, and accused First Minister Alex Salmond of wanting English taxpayers to "subsidise" his
government.

Salmond came to power last year pledging to replace council tax with what he described as "fairer" local income tax (LIT), with all earners being charged 3p in the pound.

The SNP can only fund the changes if the current £400m-a-year council tax rebate from Westminster continues. Salmond predicted during last year's election campaign that UK ministers would not want to "sabotage" the reform and would continue to pay up.

But Purnell last night effectively killed off the plan. In an exclusive interview with Scotland on Sunday, he said: "They are basically asking us to subsidise them for having a different system. That would seem to me to be pretty hard to justify."

Purnell said the SNP could not claim the local income tax was fair and, at the same time, ask for a UK benefit to help off-set its costs. He said: "If they are promoting a system which is income related and based on the ability to pay then there is no need for a benefit on top of that. They can't have it both ways. They are trying to have their cake and eat it.

"If someone's council tax is £200, council tax benefit will take, say, £100 off that... but the SNP is saying that they now want another £100 on top of that as well. They are saying they want to spend the money anyhow. That is what they are asking for – to give us extra money because of a system that is different to the rest of the country. If there is no council tax then there is no council tax benefit."

Purnell's comments are a major blow to the Government, whose pledge to 'axe the council tax' was one of the major policies in last year's election campaign. The Nationalists claim the tax would leave thousands more Scots better off. People without an income – such as pensioners – would pay no tax at all. The SNP claimed only the wealthiest 10% of the country would have to pay more, and then only face a 1% increase.

However, a 3p rate would leave councils nearly £1bn short of the sums they currently take from council tax. The SNP claimed it could plug this gap by £450m efficiency savings, and from the £400m Westminster rebate.

Former ITN chairman Sir Peter Burt, who chaired a committee of investigation into local taxation, estimated that without the extra sums, the tax would need to be fixed at 6.5p in the pound to maintain local government revenues.

One senior insider in the UK Government said: "We'll say to them (the SNP], 'You have come up with this policy so you have got to sort it out'. It isn't our job to do that. They say they are the Government. They shouldn't be acting like big babies."

The source added: "If your core argument is that this tax will be based on the ability to pay and that it is a fairer tax, then why do you need this money?

"This isn't our problem. It isn't our policy. If you can't make it come out at a level which is acceptable to voters, then maybe it's a problem with your policy."

A spokesman for Finance Secretary John Swinney said: "Hopefully, once Mr Purnell has had the opportunity to read our consultation document on local income tax very shortly, he will understand the issues."

He added: "The council tax benefit is Scotland's money, plain and simple. It is part and parcel of the system of locally raised tax to help fund local government services."

Salmond gained support from the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Nicol Stephen yesterday. In a speech to his party conference in Aviemore, Stephen said he wanted to work with Salmond to bring about the reform. Addressing the First Minister, he said: "If you are serious about a local income tax, work with us, bring together now, in good faith, those in Scotland who want to see the council tax scrapped and replaced by a local income tax."

However, the Confederation of British Industry in Scotland last night reiterated its opposition to the plans.

Director Iain McMillan said: "Firstly, we believe a tax on property is a legitimate one. Secondly, we are concerned about the bureaucracy that would arise with having to amend the PAYE system."





The full article contains 790 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

AJ Fife,

02/03/2008 00:12:53
Yawn....more contrived nonsense from the Scotsman/SoS!

2

ratzo,

02/03/2008 00:15:25
Jeezo...STILL flogging this old story?

This one was doing the rounds a million years ago when they were saying that an SNP victory at Holyrood would cost every one in Scotland £5000 each.

Hmm...that reminds me...Northern Rock...how much is that costing us again...?
3

Brian S,

London 02/03/2008 00:19:48
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I didn't get past the first paragraph - off to read the Herald.
4

Alan B,

02/03/2008 00:25:10
How immature are the labour party trying to be.

"Purnell said - They are basically asking us to subsidise them for having a different system. That would seem to me to be pretty hard to justify."
That is clearly a lie. The snp are simply asking that the same money available for the council tax is available for a local income tax.

There really does look like there is no end to the depth the labour party will sink. I say this as someone who is not particulary supportive of a local income tax, but supports the right of the scottish party of government to choose the appropriate form of local taxation.

Labour position is - the scottish parliament can choose whatever council taxation method it wants, but if it chooses one we do not want and do not give england we will withdraw money available to england.

The only was out this mess is FISCAL AUTONOMY. This means that this blatent blackmail will not be allowed to continue.
5

Why Are 400,000 Leaving The UK Each Year ?,

02/03/2008 00:27:21
One thing is for sure, the SNP are setting the agenda in a way LibLabs couldn't manage.

Personally I don't agree that this policy is any good, but the SNP have been showing imagination and initiative in other more pragmatic areas.

Better than that Alex Salmond is head and shoulders above poor wee Jack or Lame Duck LibDem Leader Nicol Stephen.
6

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 00:31:27
I am no fan of the SNP, but I do hope they can get this policy through as (in my opinion) it would be a fairer system.
7

Alan B,

02/03/2008 00:32:57
Scotsman get ur act together. There are reasons for and against a local income tax or the council tax but that is not the issue here. The issue is the appalling behaviour of the labour party. No-one can justify withholding money from scotland made available to england just because the scottish government chooses a differnt form of council tax.

As such ur headline is a disgrace.

The headline should have been something like "Spiteful Labour robs scotland of democratic right to choose local income tax"
8

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 00:35:14
It was obvious before the election that the current £400m-a-year council tax rebate would be dis-continued if we scrapped council tax.

The SNP always refuted that point which was a bit disingenuous of them.

Anyway, its now time for them to see what they can do to keep their manifesto pledge without the subsidy. I am sure it must be possible.
9

,

02/03/2008 00:36:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

Richardinho,

02/03/2008 00:40:10
"Purnell said - They are basically asking us to subsidise them for having a different system. That would seem to me to be pretty hard to justify."

Well not that hard really. It's called the devolution act and your party introduced it in 1997.
11

karinxx,

02/03/2008 00:41:07
Its time we the public killed off this paper who is up for it?
12

Rio Tinto,

02/03/2008 00:42:46
Edition 1: The Scotsman Total UK England, Wales & NI Scotland ROI Other Countries
Edition 1 - Average Net Circulation: 55,766 55,759 1,282 54,477 7
Average Circulation - Full Rate 51,663 1,233 50,430
Average Circulation - Lesser Rate 39 39
Average Circulation - Pre-Paid Non Postal Subscription 1,257 1,257
Average Circulation - Corporate Subscription Sales
Average Circulation - Multiple Copy 2,800 49 2,751

#9 weh.Less than 1% of Scotland read this rag so i would not worry about the contents contained in it.
13

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 00:45:06
Karinxx what a joke you are.

If you hate the paper so much, how come you are never off its website?
14

Aýrshire Scot™,

02/03/2008 00:47:16
#9 Weh .......well I recokon it is a Scottish Newspaper don't you?

What is your thinking here?

Is it because it tells the truth about the SNP then it can't be Scottish??

You need to cut back on your medication.
15

Rio Tinto,

02/03/2008 00:49:01
#11

Only 54,000 people read this rag and that equates to the population of Greenock.
Even the amount of correspondence from the online users has tumbled due to the lack of proper and balanced reporting.
16

Melly,

Cuckfield 02/03/2008 00:53:35
Just been on the Herald and there is no mention of this story. This has to be something contrived by a disenchanted apprentice at the Scotsman.Maybe I`m in dreamland.
17

Rio Tinto,

02/03/2008 00:54:00
Neil launched his bid to lift The Scotsman's flagging circulation in May last year. After an overhaul of the paper that saw the launch of a tabloid features and arts section and a period of rapid-fire turnover of journalists at all levels, he slashed the cover price from 42p to 20p in a bid to get the new-look product in front of new readers.

At the time, Neil was fabled for his "morale boosting" power- point presentations delivered from a podium in the new Scotsman building's atrium. There was a short-term uplift, with sales briefly soaring above 100,000, an achievement Neil prematurely trumpeted at a reception in the Dorchester Hotel, London.

Look at it now, 7 years later and it has halved.
18

Rio Tinto,

02/03/2008 00:58:32
The Scotsman, owned by the Barclay brothers, has begun to feel the effects of the bloody circulation battle in Scotland.

The newspaper, engaged in a fierce fight for readers with the Herald, has been ordered by executives to cut editorial budgets by around 10%. The number of pages is also expected to be reduced, chiefly in the business and tabloid sections. The newspaper, which is run for the brothers' Press Holdings by Andrew Neil, has also frozen recruitment.

Similar cuts will be imposed on Scotland on Sunday.

A spokesman refused to discuss the retrenchment. He said: "Certain budget refinements have been made to ensure the continued competitiveness of the newspaper in what is generally regarded as one of the toughest markets in the world. But this does not involve job losses."

The newspaper is also considering recalling its Washington correspondent, Robert Tait, as it struggles to take £1m out of the editorial budget.

The Scotsman has gone through a turbulent period in the past 15 months or so, with a large number of staff defections, a relaunch, and three editors, the latest, Rebecca Hardy, arriving in June last year.

19

Rio Tinto,

02/03/2008 01:00:27
As you see from the post above, the paper has been in decline even when Manic Neil was scribbling gibberish.
20

An Beal Bacht,

02/03/2008 01:09:32
Rio - Good posts bro:

If they really wanted to increase circulation all they need to do is report honestly and be supportive of Scottish aspirations. Since they steadfastly refuse to do that one must assume that they have another agenda - one that supersedes financial success. Perhaps the new chairman of the Scottish branch of the Conservative and Unionist Party could explain it to us?
21

Soosider,

Glasgow 02/03/2008 01:19:30
Let me get my head round this, the UK government gives grant for Council Tax rebates, but does not feel inclined to offer similiar support for scheme that would replace it? Why not? I thnk most folk would see this as punitive action and would be inclined to take umbridge with it.
Seems like another win - win situation for the SNP
22

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 02/03/2008 01:25:01

The council tax is not a fair tax

Taxes are a burden for us all where we have to pay our fair share to keep the country running

However the coucil tax is a punitive tax and instead of putting the burden on middle income people should be spread across society
23

,

02/03/2008 01:27:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

Soosider,

Glasgow 02/03/2008 01:27:41
I think Eddie is going for a record 4 anti SNP articles in the one edition. You would not have an agenda would you?
25

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 01:28:28
The Herald is going upwards, even though it has a go at the SNP Scottish Government. The reason for this is obviously the balance of its opinion. It does not condemn or avoid the Scottish Peoples right to Independance, and it has some first class reporters who tackle the issues that matter here in Scotland.
26

,

02/03/2008 01:38:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 02/03/2008 01:49:21
Aye, no sources from the SNP in this story. Haw haw material...
28

DouglasT,

02/03/2008 01:50:53
No mention in SoS of the renfrewshire referendum on EU - is the result inconvenient for the SoS ??
29

William of Liberton,

EDINBURGH 02/03/2008 02:00:27
This story, along with the refusal to discuss firearms control, just reinforces the need for complete independence from England, if we are to run our own affairs, (including foreign policy) in the way we want. Roll on independence!
30

Colkitto,

River Clyde 02/03/2008 02:27:08
Almost every story from the Scotland on Sunday is an negative SNP story. This is getting tedious and sickening. Democracy eh ?

31

indune1,

02/03/2008 02:34:21
11 - karin - you sultry wench. Where have you been?

No more piano missions for you. It's Dunnie.
32

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 02:48:53
Labour might be able to find some dodgy excuse to reduce the SNP budget by a further 450M but if they do it will be because they are scared the SNP were about to create a popular fair system of local taxation rather than the council tax which is as bad nowadays as the poll tax.

Labour lost the election. If they attack the Scottish budget they are effectively attacking the people of Scotland and their right to choose another party.

The key point here is the sovereignty of the Scottish people. This was a concept Labour paid lip service to in the past through the Claim of Right but which they appear to have rejected now in favour of the idea that the UK parliament is actually sovereign.

If this becomes clearer to the Scottish electorate (and their rejection of a democratic referendum on independence with their now anti Scottish chums the Liberal Democrats is a pretty big clue) their vote will go the way of the Tories and deservedly so.

Also the unions (at last) might doubt the wisdom of funding a Labour dictatorship controlled by London over the wishes of their own folk and might choose to vote their Scottish branches into independence as a prelude to supporting the SNP and Scottish independence.
33

Castaway,

02/03/2008 03:06:50
An interview earlier this week on Radio Scotland between BBC's Colin Mackay and Lord George Foulkes:-
GF: "The SNP are on a very dangerous tack at the moment. What they are doing is trying to build up a situation in Scotland where the services are manifestly better than south of the Border in a number of areas."
CM: "Is that a bad thing?"
GF: "No. But they are doing it deliberately"
34

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 02/03/2008 03:24:55
Castaway,
That shows exactly who Scotand's enemy is. This is unionist la la land!
35

Navvy,

02/03/2008 03:47:27
riotinto wrtes rubbish

Selling papers is only part of the story
Few posters will have bought a paper

Karenxxrated should confine herself to the daily record
36

Willie Macleod,

Wick 02/03/2008 03:54:58
'34 I am a Scot Who is an enemy I see no enemy I see people living on an island without borders.
37

,

02/03/2008 03:56:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 04:14:31
#37 ah, rational debate. I am very interested in Mr Foulke's remarks however. Even the SofS theirselves are saying that Labour can't get away with this so your ranting isn't winning any arguments.

Nice to see you're frustrated though, I wonder why Labour can't get anyone to support their position online? Maybe it's because most normal folk find running down their own country extremely unattractive.
39

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 04:15:25
#37 You're not David Cairns are you?
40

,

02/03/2008 04:22:52
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41

,

02/03/2008 04:25:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
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42

,

02/03/2008 04:25:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
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43

,

02/03/2008 04:26:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
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44

,

02/03/2008 04:27:15
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45

Willie Macleod,

Wick 02/03/2008 04:27:49
#38 What you get online are those who play the fool those who play with words, and those who play the devils advocate and others some decent some abusive and vile.
46

,

02/03/2008 04:35:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
47

Willie Macleod,

Wick 02/03/2008 04:42:29
46 I reject Nationalism be it British or Scottish.
48

mesmiths,

fife 02/03/2008 06:07:27
This is not a proper newspaper!
49

Why Are 400,000 Leaving The UK Each Year ?,

02/03/2008 06:28:05
Not that anyone seems to have noticed, but Nicol Stephen just announced he is joining up with the SNP on this policy.

Forgive me if my arithmetic is wrong, but doesn't that mean with SNP 47 votes and LibDem 16 votes, this plan has a very good chance of becoming law in Scotland/

Cue one rather fiesty fight between the Scottish Government and the Westminster Government.

Also, with all due respect to the Scotsman, a little forward thinking on this piece of reporting might have highlighted some alternate end games producing a more likely article than running with the: Salmond LIT Plan In Tatters :@)
50

Forward not Back,

02/03/2008 06:31:42
Quite simply, council tax or local income tax, why has no one commented on the stupidity of a system that charges individuals a certain amount and then gives them the money to pay it.

Negative income tax rates are the way to tackle poverty efficiently and remove an army of pen pushers at the same time. Why does no one consider this?
51

John Blackley,

Winter Garden, FL 02/03/2008 06:35:49
Ah, the usual reasoned debate I expect to find on the comments page of the Scotsman.

It's the paper's fault! It's the Labour Party's fault! It's the (insert yor usual stalking horse here)'s fault!

Let's play "what if" for a moment. What if the British government's serious and refuses to fund Mr. Salmdond's plan?
52

Argyll on line,

Argyll 02/03/2008 06:37:33
Where is Faither Cairns in all this? His anti- Scottish gub is uncharteistically shut for the moment. Time to actually seize the oil revenues surely.
53

donald,

glasgow 02/03/2008 06:50:17
The only way to reject British Nationalism is to vote for Independence and learn the difference between oppressive and progressive nationalism.
54

Phil-Atelist,

Livingston A roundabout way to get anywhere 02/03/2008 07:34:12
Thankfully I do not have to pay to read this drivel
55

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 07:37:57
Easy to find the £400 Million shortfall.

Trams spend - around £500M
Trams already spent - around £100M
Scrap them, pay some penalties - leaves around £400Million.

Job done - back to bed!!!
56

donald,

glasgow 02/03/2008 07:43:21
Video available for this article What now for the Prince who wants to be a soldier?

Dress up as an Admiral.
57

steve 1511,

aberdeen 02/03/2008 07:45:31
james purnell this man is a proven liar who falsified photos,a true labour politician
58

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News 02/03/2008 07:47:05
You are all being a little harsh about those in power in Westminster, the money is better needed to buy extra shredders for all the MP's and pay for taxis for wive's shopping trips. Obviously, when it can be well spent for the benefit of such as those, there is no need to squander it on 'common' people.

Oh, and of course the PM Gordon Brown needs to keep his war chest topped up.......

and the Chancellor needs a bit for Northern Crock....




Yours etc

Angus Whitton
59

Concerned local,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 07:49:40
Another Sunday, another NuLiebour Propaganda Machine AKA Scotland (sic) on Sunday AKA Pravda and another anti-SNP story. Quelle surprise!!!!

And doesn't council tax benefit go to support the poor and needy, like the families of vulnerable-two-year-olds, vulnerable-two-year-olds, vulnerable-two-year-olds. Where's whining Wendy when you need her to champion the cause of the vulnerable? Oh, aye too busy taking orders from Westminster to care!

So the Westminster view is - you can have devolution, but you can only do what we tell you. And the NuLiebour and LibDumb response to this is what? After all, they campaigned around Scotland saying the 'powers' from the devolution 'settlement' would kill the SNP stone dead. The only non-liar in this imperialist, unionist con trick was, ironically, Tony Blair when he said the powers of the Scottish Parliament would be the same as an English parish council. And for eight years, the coalition partners duly obliged!!!!
60

William of Liberton,

EDINBURGH 02/03/2008 07:54:09
18 Rio Tinto,02/03/2008 00:58:32
The Scotsman, owned by the Barclay brothers, has begun to feel the effects of the bloody circulation battle in Scotland.

All you say is correct but you are a bit out of date. The Scotsman etc has long since been taken over by the Johnson Press which originated in Falkirk, and claims to be Scottish. Yet the first thing they did was to appoint a provincial Englishman to edit the Scotsman! If the English ever engage in a military occupation of Scotland we will have no shortage of Quislings to collaborate with them.
61

FM in Dundee,

02/03/2008 07:56:04
Should the headline not be

"Westminster sparks fresh row with Scottish Government"
62

Phil C,

02/03/2008 07:58:45
The following ‘stories’ printed today are given an anti SNP twist by the SoS. They are ALL By Eddie Barnes, Political Editor & Labour Bottom Wiper! It’s really not very clever!

1. “THE SNP's flagship plan to scrap council tax has been wrecked by the UK Government after ministers categorically ruled out helping to fund the radical reform.”

2. “THE flagship policy of free personal care for the elderly will be drastically cut because of a cash crisis in town halls across Scotland, leaked council documents have revealed.”

3. “ALEX Salmond is facing a second parliamentary inquiry into claims SNP ministers have interfered in Scotland's planning rules.”

4. “THEIR campaign to clear cheap drink from Scotland's supermarket shelves has displayed all the fervour of a group of American Prohibitionists. But SNP ministers were facing embarrassment last night after it emerged that online shoppers can buy cut-price alcohol from adverts on their own website.”

………Time for a holiday Mr (or is it Ms?) Barnes! A very long one. Have a rest, ponder, unwind, relax. Iron out the bitterness. Get real. Have a swim to clean up your Brown nose. Come back when you have a more open mind, capable of delivering fair reporting, or else go and work for Labour Weakly (pun intended!).
63

Ian C,

People's Democratic Republic of Fife (Home of the 02/03/2008 08:05:24
It is about time ALL Scots realised that Labour's game is to try to totally destroy anything sensible the Scottish Government proposes whether by witholding cash or any other means.

I met "The Broon" twice in the 90s. I think Putin must be his hero these days. As for Wooden Top Wendy.....she is a joke and broke the law !

It is time the Scots moved to indepedence; at least then Broon's Fife (would he move house to England ?) may move from the worst roads in the UK and provide decent funding care for OAPs which does not involved long term bed blocking (14 OAPs in all so far in my father's ward at the Queen Margaret Hospital) et al.

Frankly, the term "Fly Fifer" (sleakit Fifer) suits the Broon down to the deck.

64

Phil C,

02/03/2008 08:19:57
Further to #62....

Found another Barnes' nugget. The hatchet is sharp today!

5. "AN SNP minister was at the centre of a political storm last night after she claimed that her party "never said" it would write off student debt during last year's victorious election campaign."
65

Joe,

Berwick 02/03/2008 08:20:29
Why should English taxpayers subsidise Salmond's minority government? They are seething already at having to subsidise
Salmond's other giveaways. Salmond is a Cuckoo in the UK nest.
66

It's me!,

02/03/2008 08:28:21
If a local income tax doesn't cost central government one additional penny there can be only one reason for this story. Labour is running scared. With whinging, whining Wendy as their representative in Scotland they have big problems. Gordon Brown and others need to take a look at themselves and remember that they were elected to represent their constituents and not impose their political prejudices upon us.

A governments first duty is to defend this country from incursion and not to attack others in the middle east. Bring back the troops. We won the war but lost the peace because American politicians believed in the Rambo films and thought the Arabs etc would just roll over. £450 million is chickenfeed in comparison with the cost of the war. Get real. We are not longer a world power. Start looking after your constituents, not yourselves!
67

walter,

02/03/2008 08:28:41
An individual will produce evidence that they are on a low income, the council can then work out how much of a reduction on the council tax they are entitled to, the council then claim this difference back from the government.
This money is not Scotlands money as the SNP are trying to claim, it is paid to whichever council the individual lives in.
If a person claiming CT benefits moves from Edinburgh to Leeds then Edinburgh does not continue to get the money Leeds will start to get it as that is where the person lives.
Although not in these words this article is pointing this inconvenient truth out that is why it is being attacked by the minority that support the SNP and their independence agenda.
This minority do not like the truth and will verbally abuse any one of the majority who has the audacity to point the truth out.
68

Melly,

Sussex 02/03/2008 08:30:24
#34
Ah Wullie, there`s none so blind as those that cannot see !
69

Carlung,

Haddington 02/03/2008 08:33:35
Joe, Berwick 02/03/2008 08:20:29
Why should English taxpayers subsidise Salmond's minority government? They are seething already at having to subsidise
Salmond's other giveaways. Salmond is a Cuckoo in the UK nest.

Right enough! It's time Scotland got to keep it's own revenues (including oil & whisky) and like Norway become independent and, free from strutting around the world making illegal wars, become wealthy.

England would wither like a grape on the vine. Bring it on - the sooner the better.

PS Come and collect your Trident.
70

It's me!,

02/03/2008 08:40:29
#66. Joe, Berwick. Don't fall for it. Scotland is not getting more than England. All that has happened is that the Scots have elected politicians who are spending their budget much more wisely than those south of the border. It is up to you in England to elect politicians south of the border who will do likewise. It's in your hands! Don't let Westminster policitians cause a division between us to allow them to rule over us rather than for us. Ask your politicians why they are not spending prudently!
71

Phil C,

02/03/2008 08:43:48
Joe #66 Put pressure on the authorities to regain Berwick's place in Scotland. A big majority of your fellow citizens want to do that too!

Scotland's oil has been heavily subsidising England for years, and continues to do so. A bit more gratitude would be nice.
72

thinking,

Scotland 02/03/2008 08:43:52
How can you rebate something that doesn't exist?
If council tax ceases to be then you can't rebate it.
73

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 08:44:48
The vast majority of experts have condemned the proposals for local income tax to replace the Council Tax, and we should listen to them.
74

Linda,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 08:52:26
AT a time when record oil revenues (over $100 a barrel)are flowing from North Sea and adding an extra £3 billion to Westminster Treasury last year it is Westminster who are being childish.

It also proves Labour do not believe in further devolution and independence is now the only solution for a progressive and fairer Scotland.
75

NBJT,

North Berwick 02/03/2008 08:53:34
It's Sunday morning and I am going to simplify things.

INDEPENDENCE now!!!!

Please ignore the rubish that the English controlled press write!

76

Scudder,

Glasgow 02/03/2008 08:54:05
Oh dear, the Micky Mouse paper does it yet again ,..,
Did Eddie Barnes, your anti SNP Liebour editor say this headline would be ok ? Time he was fired !
You're newspaper is a disgrace to its name ,.,.just as yon extinct wee labour party is a disgrace to politics ,.,.
It's OUR money and they simply cannot keep it ,,,
all Alex needs is a good lawyer on the case.
Roll on bloody Independence.
77

Phil C,

02/03/2008 08:54:27
It would be profoundly dishonest if an equivalent amount to Scotland's current share of Council Tax Benefit was not paid in Scotland. Labour's filthy track record has surely not sunk this low.
78

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 08:54:28
Joe Berwick

I can only assume that you are new to this debate and have not quite picked up on the issues.

Where did you get the idea that Scotland is somehow subsidised by England?

This argument has long since been discredited and is now rarely used by even the most cringing of unionists.

In terms of the Council tax benefit debate, none is this money is new.

Westminster currently returns to Scotland some £400 million of our own money, by way of a central subsidy of local government expenditure.

The SNP, (and seemingly the Lib Dems), are merely requesting that this return of funds continues as before.

If Westminster do decide to reduce the allocation of Scottish generated funds back to Scotland as a result of a difference of opinion upon how Local Government is financed, then those parties advocating such a reduction will surely pay a heavy price via the ballot box.

Who is likely to be seen as the champions of the people of Scotland?

Those who for reasons of spite and hubris would deny Scotland access to even more of our own funds, or those who would grasp the thistle of the wise allocation Scottish generated taxation?
79

It's me!,

02/03/2008 08:57:29
#75 & 77. Let's have another wee piece of legislation that says the equivalent rebate will be given in the event of the abolition of council tax in Scotland. Job done! Oh! You would rather find reasons for not doing positive things and remain negative. Listen! We are not longer prepared to be treated like a colony by Westminster politicians who think London is the centre of the universe. We are big boys now and can look after ourselves just like nations of similar size like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Ireland and others outside Europe. It's time England stood on its own feet too.
80

Carlung,

02/03/2008 08:59:35
Q. Who writes these anti-Scottish articles for 'England on Sunday'?
A. Probably they issue from the Labour speech writers in Transport House.
Q. Why do the editors go along with this blatant bias?
A. They are in the pay of their English owners.
Q. How do we remedy this state of affairs?
A. Stop buying the rag.
Q. Surely we can do more than that?
A. Yes, keep voting SNP, particularly in Gordon Brown's constituency.
81

The Ninja,

Bonnie Scotland 02/03/2008 09:01:50
"if there is no council tax in Scotland there will be no council tax benefit.”

Fair enough comment, so is this:
If there is no oil in England....

;-)
82

happy english,

London 02/03/2008 09:02:56
#83 The trouble is your not big boys you do not even have your own finacial markets, that is all in London.
83

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02/03/2008 09:07:10
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84

shivago8,

livingston 02/03/2008 09:11:50
The sooner we go it on our own,the better,the poll tax,water rates are flawed,unfair and rotten.
Water rates----2 people living in a house pay double what 4 people do,you dont need to be a brain surgeon to see something is wrong here,LUDICROUS.
85

Linda,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 09:13:33
Brain damaged 88,

Did your hear what George Foulkes said last week?
“The SNP are on a very dangerous tack at the moment. What they are doing is trying to build up a situation in Scotland where the services are manifestly better than south of the border in a number of areas."

BBCs Colin MacKay intervened to say: "Is that a bad thing?"

Lord George said: "No, but they are doing it deliberately…"
86

Linda,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 09:17:06
Is six anti SNP stories a record for SoS?

Latest opinion polls and local government election results still put SNP well ahead of Labour with Tories and Lib Dems trailing.

Just consider the alternatives.
87

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 02/03/2008 09:22:37
Y A W N.

An English churnalist, (who's more than welcome to work, rest and play in Scotland) writing in a wholly owned English paper, with a pro-England bias that is only 'The Scotsman' in name.

Perhaps some independent minded entrepreneur can create a newspaper based in London, staff it with Scottish journos, promote a heavily pro-independence bias in all its reporting and call it 'The Englishman'.

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02/03/2008 09:26:50
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89

Cheryl here,

Scotland 02/03/2008 09:27:57
Well, at least Nicol Stephen of the Lib Dems now wants to work with the SNP to scrap council tax according to news last night.

As far as Westminster saying English taxpayers subsidise Scotland...they must have forgotten where North Sea oil is coming from. Let's see the money go directly to Scotland rather than divert it through London and see who's supporting who.
90

brownlie,

glasgow 02/03/2008 09:28:57
52 John Blackley

OK Lets play "what if"
"You say what if the British Government is serious and refuses to fund Salmond's plans"
The money is not the British Government's to refuse. It is a rebate that should be given back to Scotland from our money in order to off-set the cost of the council tax - no matter how the tax is administered.
In your "what if" scenario if our money is not given back by the British Government the "poll tax" demonstations would pale into insignificance. The Scottish Government would have to resign and an election would inevitably have to follow. Is that what the Labour party really want at this time - I think not because the consequences for them would be catastrophic.
91

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 09:29:03
#87 AM2

You appear to be ummm spitting against the wind.

Your mob have lost the debate on the principle of the income based LIT as opposed to a notional property tax in the form of the current Council Tax.

With the support of the Lib Dems, Greens and Margo MacD, the SNP Government can muster sufficient support to (yet again) carry the day in any debate on this subject in the Scottish Parliament.

The real question at issue here is “Will Westminster attempt to thwart the will of the Scottish people by reducing the repatriation of Scottish generated funds previously directed towards the funding of Local Government?”

If the answer is “Yes”, then this can only lead to a further boost to the already existing groundswell of support for the concept of independence.
92

Nikostratos,

02/03/2008 09:32:48
#92 Linda,

"Is six anti SNP stories a record for SoS?"

Linda there is so much material to choose from these days.........snp honeymoon coming to an end...........promises to keep.........promises to pay for........Reality banging on the door....Oh dear
93

,

02/03/2008 09:35:47
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02/03/2008 09:37:04
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95

Phil C,

02/03/2008 09:42:16
I take it the photo accompanying the headline is James 'no friends' Purnell, that obsequious little oink who pastes himself into photographs!

His Work and Pensions Department have already robbed this country blind through stealth taxation. Now he wants to deprive Scotland of her democratic rights and our money!

We need to wipe that smug look off his face.
96

Philip Watson,

02/03/2008 09:43:53
Independence is the only way to go...
97

Pilrig.,

Livingston 02/03/2008 09:44:01
Eddie's been doin his tour of the Labour drinkin dens
98

It's me!,

02/03/2008 09:45:02
#87 AM2. Westminster politicians are interfering in the wishes of the Scottish people who have elected MSP's to represent them. Your 'natives should do as they are told' attitude comes from an time when when blacks and people with slanty eyes should remember who the masters are. We have, thankfully, come a long way from these days. Your attitude is one in which you believe Sweden, Denmark and Norway should have remained one country. Surprise, they are all capable nations on their own.
99

Gordon, Canonmills,

Edinburgh 02/03/2008 09:48:02
“Salmond tax plan in tatters”

“SNP faces probe over Aviemore planning row”

“Salmond tax plan in tatters”

Today’s “Scotland” section contains three negative headlines concerning the SNP, none of which leads to a story of any substance, and all written by Eddie Barnes, “Political Editor”.

I bought the Scotsman for many years and the SoS from its inception. It always called itself “Scotland’s newspaper”, and I hoped that this would one day be true.

I have now given up that hope. The style has degenerated continually and is now hard to distinguish from the red-top tabloids. The editorial line which, if never pro-independence, did at one time make an effort to be objective, has evolved into cheap anti-SNP pamphleteering.

The demise of this newspaper has been really sad to witness.
100

JimC,

Kilmarnock 02/03/2008 09:48:43
So its the same tactic as Attendance allowance is it. Scots put into the tax system yet as soon as we differ from the rest of the UK our money somehow is unavailable. Does it matter what system is in use, what name we give it? There will always be those who are entitled to benefit yet Nu-Labour seem to be trying to mislead people by saying no council tax then no council tax benefit. Yet if its based on a local tax and ability to pay then the rebate claimed would be smaller for many. As for PAYE, as Brown last time round changed the tax system with his stealth tax (remember that 10p) then businesses simply had their wages software updated to take account. The same will happen again as its part of their licence agreement to get updates as the system changes. Who wrote this story, your bias is blatantly showing.
101

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02/03/2008 09:48:48
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02/03/2008 09:50:28
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103

Fabius Maximus,

02/03/2008 09:53:36
I don't get it. Council tax benefit is paid to individuals, and by them to councils. If the council tax is an income tax now, surely if you don't pay one - ie, don't earn enough - you won't pay the other? So the money to fund those who don't earn enough to pay income tax to contribute to the cost of their councils will have to come from those of us who do? And if the UK government no longer has to make a block grant to Scottish councils, the income tax paid by people resident in Scotland should be adjusted accordingly.
In that way, the Scottish Government would not need UK subsidy. The subsidy woulld come exclusively from Scots tax payers. Or would that just demonstrate to every Scots tax payer that the UK subsidy works in our favour?
I don't know, I ask in the spirit of earnest inquiry.
104

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/03/2008 09:53:51
#77, AM2.

Here we go again!

Yet again, your own logic let's you down. After making it crystal clear, that LPT would attract CT rebate, you then say, in #77, that CT and CT rebates are