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New income tax '£1bn adrift' – as Greens rain on the SNP's parade



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Published Date:
14 March 2008
ALEX SALMOND'S controversial local income tax plans suffered a double blow last night, as the figures underpinning the scheme started to unravel and Green MSPs warned they could not see any way in which they could give their support to the move.
When John Swinney, the finance secretary, unveiled the plans this week, he faced criticism from opposition politicians and business people who warned there was a funding gap of up to £700 million.

But it now appears the "blackhole" could be
as much as £1 billion or more – money which the taxpayer will have to find if the scheme gets the go-ahead.

Official figures published yesterday showed that in 2010-11, a local income tax of 3p in the pound would be expected to raise £1.5 billion – almost £1 billion less than the £2.473 billion due to be raised by the council tax that year.

When he published his plans, Mr Swinney accepted there would be a gap between what was raised through council tax and what will be raised by the local income tax, but insisted the shortfall would only be £280 million – which he claimed would come from the Scottish Government.

At present, another £400 million a year comes in the form of council tax benefit from the Treasury. Mr Swinney is adamant the Scottish Government will get this back from the UK government, but yesterday Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, ruled that out too.

That makes a gap of £680 million, but according to the figures released by the Scottish Parliament yesterday, the real gap could be £1 billion.

Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, yesterday warned the only way the Scottish Government could make its new tax work would be to raise the rate to 5p in the pound, which would hit hundreds of thousands of working families.

She added: "Families can't afford it, businesses don't want it and local government doesn't like it – and the rich won't pay it."

Mr Salmond said that a local income tax would be welcomed by single pensioners, pensioner couples, couples with or with- out children and one-parent families.

As a minority administration, the SNP government will need the support of Holyrood's two Green Party MSPs to get its local income tax passed.

But last night, one of them, Patrick Harvie, said his party was fundamentally opposed to the plan as it was unfair, and the Greens wanted to retain at least a form of property tax.

He said: "I do not see any scope for us coming on board. Certainly, there has not been an approach from the SNP."

He said the absence of a tax on unearned income would exempt some very rich people and encourage other wealthy individuals to find ways of living off their unearned income, just to avoid paying the tax.

Mr Harvie added: "I do not see a way of resolving that fundamental problem."

FIRST MINISTER'S QUESTIONS … BUT NO ANSWERS

ALEX Salmond suffered probably his most difficult outing at First Minister's Questions yesterday, when he was put under intense pressure over the Scottish Government's local income tax plans.

The First Minister was challenged by both Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, and Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Tory leader, over the controversial plans, announced earlier this week and which would replace the council tax with a 3p-in-the-pound rise in income tax.

Mr Salmond was asked to produce figures to back up his claims that the new tax would not leave a massive financial black hole in the country's budget, but he could not produce the figures.

Instead, he insisted that the move would be championed by pensioners and the low paid, and would be a much fairer system than the council tax.

Ms Alexander said: "This time last year, in the SNP's scramble for votes, they were willing to answer all of these basic questions – but none of these numbers appeared in this week's document.

"Will the First Minister agree he is duty bound to publish the basic numbers then let the people of Scotland decide?" Mr Salmond replied: "What Wendy Alexander describes as a black hole is a £281 million tax cut for working families across Scotland. That represents less than 1 per cent of Scottish Government expenditure."

Miss Goldie said that, under the government proposals, those whose income came from bank interest and shares would pay nothing, as the charge only applies to earned income. The First Minister told that her economic experts believed any attempt to tax dividend income would cost more than it yielded.

Lies, damned lies and statistics – who's right?

ANALYSIS


WHEN any proposal to change a major tax comes along, each side likes to use statistics to back up its arguments, writes Hamish Macdonell.

In the case of the local income tax, both its supporters and detractors have been insisting that the statistics support their case. So who is right?

The Scottish Government claims that 67 per cent of Scots would be better off under the income tax plan and only 18 per cent would be worse off (with 15 per cent seeing no change).

Ministers also claim that they would only have to find £280 million from their budget to cover the shortfall between the money raised by council tax and that raised by a 3p-in-the-pound local income tax.

They accept that their sums include £400 million in council tax benefit which they believe will be returned by the UK Treasury and that without that there would be a £680 million deficit to make up.

Labour and the Tories dispute the Scottish Government's figures. But it is difficult, and probably impossible, for them to challenge the Scottish Government's assertion that 67 per cent would be better off, because to do that they would need access to more accurate data, and it is impossible to get.

Officials at the Scottish Government came up with that percentage by taking UK government estimates of what Scots earned and comparing it with what they paid under the council tax system.

Officials used a database of 4,500 families to get their figures. Anybody trying to get more accurate figures would have to find a database of real families with their income levels and their council tax liabilities, and that is very hard to do. It has been easier for the opposition to challenge the Scottish Government's financial assumptions, though. Labour asked the Scottish Parliament's information centre to forecast council tax and local income tax receipts for the next few years.

The results showed a gap of about £1 billion between the expected revenue from council tax in 2010-11 and the expected revenue from local income tax.

This has allowed Labour and the Tories to undermine the Scottish Government's case on the general figures, even if they have not been able to do the same when it comes to the number of winners and losers.



The full article contains 1166 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

,

14/03/2008 00:26:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

J J MAROONER,

14/03/2008 00:30:29
1#

This was once moderately amusing at best, it is now becoming tedious, give it a rest now. Please.
3

subrosa,

14/03/2008 01:01:49
# 1 Just go to bed.
4

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 14/03/2008 01:04:27
The article asks:

"Lies, damned lies and statistics – who's right?"

Well, Alex is an Economist;
Wendy is a Management Consultant;
Anabel is a Solicitor;
+ Nicol is a Solicitor.

I know who I'd believe in an economic arguement.
5

Samcafe,

Glasgow 14/03/2008 05:34:32
No matter who you believe it does point our rather starkly the current taxation burden being met by householders in Scotland to provide services for all.
6

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 14/03/2008 06:26:16
The Greens and me both prefer Land Value Tax to Local Income Tax. LVT is fair, inescapable and easy to collect: the opposite of LIT. Income tax penalises hard work. LIT makes no sense.
7

Rickie,

Reality 14/03/2008 07:03:04
Wendy does like to use her argument time to good use doesn't she "and the rich won't pay it". Just like Wendy? Is this a personal statement that she would stand against it as if it were a poll tax demand and risk jail (again - although the same excuse would probably just get recycled).

That should secure a few more fish suppers for the poor down on her luck lass after all those other perks have been found out that she can't use anymore.

Is it just me or do these paid to help ministers spend all their time not-helping?
Isn't that then gross misconduct on their job spec?
Grounds for dismissal surely.
They are not paid to bitch about someone else having a good idea but to aid and assist it in happening to best effect and reward to the people they are 'supposed' to represent.

Any employment lawyer out there that could clarify the facts of a 'job' as an MSP/MP, etc. and it's base responsibilities?
8

donald,

glasgow 14/03/2008 07:38:48
Greens turning Boon?
9

conservative,

Fife 14/03/2008 07:57:24
I see there aren't so many comments today from the SNP activists. Maybe the facts are slowly sinking home? The simple truth is that council tax raises very much more than the so-called 3p tax AND ALSO the bulk of the 3p tax would be paid by ordinary working folk. A time bomb waiting to explode under the next administration (which of course won't be the SNP).

You couldn't make it up.
10

Unimpressed one,

14/03/2008 08:09:36
"But last night, one of them, Patrick Harvie, said his party was fundamentally opposed to the plan as it was unfair, and the Greens wanted to retain at least a form of property tax."

The greens have presumably seen that this change would be to the advantage of the majority of the population so will in principle, oppose it.
11

Road to the isles,

14/03/2008 08:13:02
Why should property owners pay for services provided to all? Everyone should pay according to their means and an income tax of some sort would asddress that. I'm fed up with all you numpties who think otherwise - PAY YOUR SHARE!
12

Gdgy,

dundy 14/03/2008 08:21:12
To the SNPites it would seem that Everyone is out of step (or can't count like)apart from oor wee Johnie!

Even the greens, whose command of economics is partial at best, have seeen the glaring hole in the SNP "budget" - somethign that JS has pointed out himself!!!!

It is all unravelling now...so much for building trust, delivering for Scotland....
13

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 08:25:28
We have seen Gordon Prudence Brown's national borrowing requirements vanish like snow off a dyke so why should we believe anything that comes from the Labour (or other opposition) party. Let's give the SNP a chance to show if their calculations are any better, after all they are economists not lawyers and consultants.
14

Jock 107,

14/03/2008 08:25:30
#8 The problem with a valuation tax is that it doesn't relate to wealth or income.

If I have a house worth 100k, and a mortgage of £70k, I don't think I necessarily can afford the same tax as someone with a £100k house, and *no* mortgage.
15

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 14/03/2008 08:28:43
A BILLION pounds! I'll say it again a Billion pounds. Where on earth did Hamish come up with this lovely neat round number, I didn't think the Scotsman staff had so many fingers and toes.
16

Xena - Warrior Princess,

14/03/2008 08:35:31
I never thought I would see the day that I would agree with a Tory, but Annabelle had it spot on. The dustman would pay but the duke will not! That is what is unfair about this tax.
17

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News 14/03/2008 08:48:48
Put the matter of arithmetic aside and focus on fiscal competence, integrity, and comittment to a manifesto.

Looks like the SNP have no real opposition. Yes, there will be one or two hiccups, but I know who I trust to run a country and an economy.



Yours etc




Angus Whitton
18

John south of Soutra,

14/03/2008 09:09:12
Wendy is a management consultant, the other 2 are lawyers, says it all pretty much doesn't it, none of them have actually worked in the real world yet we have allowed them to run country no wonder we are in such a mess
19

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 14/03/2008 09:18:17
Property taxes are paid by all (adults) who live in properties. The landlords/owners make sure of that as they are the ones actually taxed, and pass these on in higher rents, etc.

Income tax taxes hardwork and is easily evaded. Land taxes don't/can't be.
20

Nikostratos,

14/03/2008 09:20:20
Well these local income tax plans are looking increasingly less likely to be going anywhere this side of an election............As ever the devil is in the detail..........

Alex Salmond seemed to me to be a man of promise. I now see he is a man of promises.
21

cabrach loon,

inverness 14/03/2008 09:28:10
logic says that all the omissions, irregularities etc. will be sorted out in due corse to create a fair equitable system. Obviously non residents must pay something though not the same as someone resident full time etc. At least it seems a decent try to create a system that will not drive widows to relocate etc. A system based on property values cannot be fair! Actually poll tax was more fair than the present system and at least was based on a head count of earners. This effort seems best but needs debugging.
22

DAVID,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 09:37:02
To all those starry eyed dreamers who have Alex Salmond on a pedestal just because he was economist at RBS back in the 80s or whatever.

Remember that he worked for RBS before it became the major global company it is now i.e. when it was still a wee parochial bank with a boring retail base like the Clydesdale is now. It's not that impressive really, and there are many better economic and financial brains around.

23

Richard Lionheart,

14/03/2008 09:40:03
When will the Labour party get over the fact that they are no longer the Government Party in Scotland?

This continual tinkering with Scottish Finances by Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling, is denying the people of Scotland their right to self determination under the terms of devolved Government.

It is quite clear that when Labour devolved power to Holyrood they never ever thought the day would come when they were not in power.

In effect they are saying you can have devolved Government in Scotland as long as it’s a Labour administration. If we are not in power we will do everything we can from Westminster to screw it up.

They should either give the SNP led administration full support or get ready for a pasting at the next Westminster elections. Brown’s dictatorship must be ended.
24

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 09:41:02
The only people warning about a shortfall are the opposition and its supporters and the only papers printing this p*sh are those supporting the union.
And again looks whos publishing the story Hamish the red himself the well known objective fairminded its no true I am in Labours pocket political hack.
Believe this sh*te at yer peril and if this spin gets out of control and we do end up losing this policy then its back to massive tax hikes wie the council tax.
Talk about cutting our noses off to spite our faces how very unionist.
25

frank mcbride,

lusitania 14/03/2008 09:46:35
I find it strange that all the nay sayers to LIT are using arguments for the ending of IT, as a system of raising Public Finance.
I have to agree with them but, whilst we have a plural tax system, based on "allowances", which is patently open to abuse, we must make the best job we can until it is replaced.

The SNP is taking a first step in this by replacing a tax, CT, which is based on a "NOTIONAL" ability to pay, and replacing it with a system based on ACTUAL ability to pay. Of course there will be cheats; the current UK tax system is set up in such a way as to allow this and, unfortunately the SG has no power to change this.

Those against LIT fall into 3 catagories:

1. The greedy.
2. NuLab/Tory politicians who have had, over the past 90yrs, the opportunity to implement a fair and transparent tax system, but have not, and now realise that they are going to be found out.
3. People who genuinely want a fairer more transparent system but, don't quite realise the constraints on doing this under the UK system.

It is to the SNPs credit that they are willing to take flack on this issue as it is self-evidently an attempt to introduce some equity into a thouroughly debased system.
26

John H,

edinburgh 14/03/2008 09:48:46
Please can anyone tell us when this expenses culture started, under whose authority and who is claiming what? The populace have the right to know this information and subsequently the right to pass judgement on this collection of work shy imposters.
Honesty, integrity they woudn't know or comprehend the meaning.
Not bad rewards for beating their gums about all sorts of situations. How come no party ever commented on this scandal?
More than likely they are all at it.
Shame on you all.
27

frank mcbride,

lusitania 14/03/2008 09:51:55
#24, David.

Perhaps you should check your facts on when RBS started its rise.

AS was so respected, in his job, that RBS kept his post open for him when he was first elect as an MP.
28

conservative,

Fife 14/03/2008 09:53:52
#27 but Frank it's not based on the ABILITY to pay it's based on income alone. If your income is all needed to pay for your committments then there'sd no ability to pay. It's no better than a valuation tax.

Also the issue is more than that - it's whether 3p is enough. It clearly isn't.
29

frank mcbride,

lusitania 14/03/2008 09:58:05
I can't seem to find anything in the Scotsman about the potential £8bn "black hole" in the UK Budget.

Is this deliberate or just poor reseach by Scotsman journalists.

Will Ms Alexander now be castigating Mr. Darling?
30

Jock 107,

14/03/2008 09:58:05
#26 Cyberwit

We have a slight problem. The Scottish Government can't borrow, so we've got to balance the books, so a gap has to be avoided. The topic is just at initial discussion stage, so there's plenty of time to get it right.

Woof
31

Jock 107,

14/03/2008 10:02:56
#29 Frank

So he's now an MP, an MSP, a Minister with a big f@ck off pension entitlement is his job still open?
32

frank mcbride,

lusitania 14/03/2008 10:08:21
#30, Conservative.

Did you actually read my comment, in respect of the taxation system overall?

Until we have a taxation system that does not permit "allowances" then, one based on earning is the fairest we will get.

An example, I believe, of a fair, transparent system: e.g. 20% sales tax (for individuals) + 1% turnover tax for business: no other taxes. The actual percentages would have to be worked out but, that is a minor matter.
33

frank mcbride,

lusitania 14/03/2008 10:10:17
#33, Jock107.

Thanks for you enlightening input.
34

,

14/03/2008 10:11:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

 Ayrshire Scot™,

14/03/2008 10:20:49
35. Indeed. Jock107's contribution seems to a good representation of well balanced, considered unionist posting.
36

PaulW,

Borders 14/03/2008 10:28:12
Jings. How low will the Scotsman stoop in its anti-SNP bias? Are you prepared to lead with the drivel produced by Labour yet again (in the same way as with the Trump article). How in heck can they project forward income tax receipts from Scotland when NOBODY actually knows how much income tax is raised in Scotland, not even the ONS, apparently? See GERS - it is based upon an estimate and is suspiciously low in truth! How, too are they/ the Scottish parliament resrearchers projecting forward a massive increase in council tax for the next few years and based upon what assumptions? Have you no gumption to check? I suspect a bad case of comedy economics by labour here.

Unbelievable. Why are you so indifferent to the fact sand to your sales figures? Are you being bakrolled now as a propoganda sheet for the pan-Unionist alliance?

There is nothing like a £1 billion gap in funding and this Scotsman "journalist" knows it - I am more inclined to believe Swinney and Salmond who have proved to be right so far than the C**p from Hamish McDonut and Wendy the Hungry Catapillar. Hamish MacDonnell, you should be utterly ashamed of the standard of your journalism.
37

Doh,

14/03/2008 10:28:52


Dear Hamish is comparing oranges and eggs.

He is comparing the new figures or Council Tax revenue with out-of-date figures for income tax revenue.

Income tax revenue will rise year also.

So the "gap" will narrow again.
38

PaulW,

Borders 14/03/2008 10:29:38
that should be "caterpillar" of course.....my English teacher would be spinning in her grave
39

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 10:37:21
Nobody but nobody who critisises the LIT proposals has produced a shred of evidence to support the spin of a shortfall. To do that they would have to prove that the council tax got the balance right between the amount collected and the spending commitments and how is that possible with a tax system with a major flaw in its inability to change with the fluctuations of the housing market?? the council tax was never able to collect the correct amounts due and therefore was unable to calculate the correct amounts due back in benefits and rebates so how can it be used to calculate what the correct level of tax is needed to balance the books?????
And yet again I will make this point ALL councils will max out on any amount of money given to them and demand more as will every other institute and until this problem is solved then it wont matter how much tax is collected because it will never be enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
40

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 10:40:41
32 Mancub.

See post 41 and explain how its even possible to try and balance the books and hurry before yer ma gets back.
41

Jock 107,

14/03/2008 10:52:56
#42 Spidernut

Budget. How much is to be spent = required revenue. Make allowance for differences in collection costs and timing of collection. Set tax rate accordingly. Bring in the money.

Woof
42

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 11:01:12
43 Childs toy

Lovely theory now how does it actually work in practice??? ie how do you calculate the allowance for differences in collection costs and timing of collection?? wont they regularly change??
How did the council tax fit in with this theory then??
43

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 11:19:00
Economics is not my area of expertise but I find it hard to imagine that the SNP, which up to now has been delivering what can only be described as 'Intelligent Government', would make such a horrendous mistake as to produce an unworkable policy.

If this does turn out to be the case the sooner our Government says so the better and begins to salvage any lost credibility by making the Council Tax fairer (if that's possible).

But at this stage I am more than willing to let the Cabinet in Holyrood decide in the light of more up to date figures, whether the policy is still workable or not.

The hugely pro Independence Margo MacDonald said last night that she didn't think John Swinney's heart was in this policy and the respected Green don't back it either but the Lib Dems do.

Come judgment day I've no doubt Prime Minister Salmond, Chancellor Swinney et al will make the right decision.
44

subrosa,

14/03/2008 11:29:17
I can't wait for LIT to get going as I'll benefit. Anything's better than what we have at the moment and it's time we took individual responsibility for local taxes.

Why should a person's home be the criteria for a local tax? We all use roads, pavements, street lightening, waste services etc. Libraries, schools and lots of other necessary services also have to be paid for somehow.
45

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 11:34:51
45

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and that was the same for the council tax and the poll tax before it. All major changes in tax regimes come with an unknown factor the problem is the unionists are trying to fill in the unknown factor with their b*llhshit.
The LIT by all calculations is a fairer and more palatable tax than the council tax and if its scuppered because of party politcal shenanagans then the vast majority of people in this country will pay the price in scandalous council tax hikes year after year. It would be extremly difficult to modify the council tax in such a way as to allow it to collect the correct amounts because of the fluctuations in the housing markets. The whole tax would have to be set up in a state of constant flux and reveiwed at least annually.
LIT by its very nature can never be the disaster the poll tax was nor the council tax is.
46

Jock 107,

14/03/2008 11:36:30
44 Cypernit

I don't usually indulge your question marks, but See http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesArticle/Choosing-a-Budget-Method.id-595.html
and adapt accordingly

On a semi-serious note, Margo has it right.
47

Highland Mighty,

14/03/2008 11:38:24
41. The whole point of local taxation and accountability under the CT was to be able to monitor council expenditure and compare with neighbouring councils to rank council efficiency. If people see taxes climbing faster than the next town without a corresponding improvement in public services, then they vote the governing party out at the next election.

With the SNP wanting to centralise it, that local accountability goes out of the window.
48

It's me!,

14/03/2008 11:43:22
Greens answer this. How is it unfair for more people to pay less than a few people to pay more irrespective of income or ability to pay?

The tories don't want LIT because they have worked out that they will have to pay a bit more and Labour don't want it because their crowd will have to pay something for the services they get for nothing now. The greedy and the parsites. And the greens have found something that makes them think they are politically important.
49

PaulW,

Borders 14/03/2008 11:52:59
I presume Cuncil tax is horrendously expensive to collect. Does anyone know how much would be saved by LIT in terms of use of PAYE? I know there is an issue over that, but let's assume that HMR&C do administer it for the sake of understanding what collection costs could be saved.
Given how much CT revenue is lost through non-payment, especially in Glasgow, and the cost of administering CT benefit must be huge too, I' will bet that LIT will be far more cost effective to collect than is the CT - could save £ millions in admin costs.
50

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 11:57:22
48 Pre-teen

And you feel the need to prove yer a troll again why exactly??
51

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 11:59:37
49

That may have been the case if local accountablity actually existed. But when local spending goes out of control as it seems to do on a regular basis then I dont see any evidence of local accountablity or responsiblity do you??
52

Jock 107,

14/03/2008 12:01:05
#52 Cympercutn

What's a troll?

Woof
53

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 12:01:15
51

Very possible but like I said the proof of the pudding is in the eating I think this tax proposal has enough merits to allow it for at least a trial period without it being condemned out of hand for party political gain.
54

Miss H,

14/03/2008 12:36:38
I would be interested in seeing how they predict the expected revenue from council tax. Is it on the basis of the nunber of people they expect to pay it? Or is it on the basis of the amount they expect it to rise by? Because if they are going on past statistics - i.e. the 60% increase in council tax under Labour and the Lib Dems - then I think that is a bit daft. To be fair to Labour and the Lib Dems I think even they realise that constant above inflation increases is just not on.

Or if they think that more people will actually be paying it what is that based on - the additional immigration? If that was the case surely a LIT would yield more from new workers.
55

Miss H,

14/03/2008 12:43:18
8 land value tax to me has exactly the same flaws as council tax. You can have 8 households all in the same close paying the same council tax yet in totally different financial circumstances. It would be the same in any street. But under a land value tax would it not be the same as council tax - if the properties were in the same council tax band they would be in the same land value tax band.

It may be that land value tax makes some sense in a rural setting - that is where most support seems to come from. But most of us do not live in rural areas, we live in urban areas. Any national system must surely be based on how the majority of people live, not the minority.
56

Miss H,

14/03/2008 12:57:01
11 Conservative

The question is what do you mean by ordinary working folk?

The median wage for a person working full time in Scotland is just under 20 grand. So that person would pay about £437 in council tax. If their partner was also an ordinary person working full time they would pay the same. So between them they would pay £874.

There is not a single council in Scotland where the average council tax bill is less than £1,100. In many places it is considerably higher than that. So the ordinary couple living in an average house will save at least £300 possibly a lot more.

You could come back and say ah but what about the couple earning £80,000 living in a Band A house. Well there may be such a couple (though I doubt it) but you are talking about the ordinary average person so that is what I have looked at.
57

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 14/03/2008 13:12:35
Land value tax is, in effect, paid by every adult. Mainly it is paid by business, though, and is instead of income tax. It is also levied on empty homes, building plots and all spaces whether developed or not. This ensures that owners do develop and don't hold land idle for speculative purposes as suoermarkets and builders do.

It is easy and cheap to collect, and overseas offshore owners cannot avoid it; whereas income tax costs about 10% of what it raises, and is avoided by fat cats.

Bear in mind that the value of property stems from the community it sits in. High values in Princes Steet, low values in a coal bing.
58

Busymale,

14/03/2008 13:31:50
Great news, the Labour party are winning the argument to keep taxing pensioners on incomes their not receiving and billing families with 5 wage earners collectively the same amount.

Doesn't it just make you feel great to be a member of the party who look after the needy!
59

ptdoug,

14/03/2008 13:36:13


Regarding Unionist economic claims....Remember this scarestory....

"An SNP victory will cost every man, woman, and child in Scotland £5000.00 per year"

nuff said,
60

ptdoug,

14/03/2008 13:41:04
Or this one....

"If the SNP win, Scotlands economy will mirror that of Albania"
61

ptdoug,

14/03/2008 13:42:06
Or this one....

" ...the sky will fall on us"
62

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 13:42:46
59

"You could come back and say ah but what about the couple earning £80,000 living in a Band A house. Well there may be such a couple (though I doubt it) but you are talking about the ordinary average person so that is what I have looked at."

Just to add to that and say that somebody in this position will have undoubtably paid off their mortgage and will therefore have little necessary financial outgoings apart from taxes and insurance policies so I dont think the change over will do them any noticable harm at all. They will be more affected by the UK governments hike on petrol spirits and tobacco than by an introduction of an LIT.
63

ptdoug,

14/03/2008 13:43:39
Hands up those that trust the idiots that claimed such things....
64

ptdoug,

14/03/2008 13:43:55
nuff said.
65

jdships,

14/03/2008 13:56:46
13 Road to the isles,

"Why should property owners pay for services provided to all? Everyone should pay according to their means and an income tax of some sort would asddress that."

Personally I can't think of an argument against that !


66

Chris Fyfe,

14/03/2008 14:04:08
This local income tax will be leakier than the Titanic.

Q1. Many of us work for firms based in England and get paid through their payroll. What is going to stop us giving an English address in order to avoid it?

Q2. How are we going to make firms in the rest of the UK change their payroll packages to recalculate the income tax for employees living in Scotland?

Q3. There is no mention of the impact of these tax changes. They are very easy to predict:

- house prices will go up (meaning that we end up paying the same costs in order to make dead people richer)
- People and firms are less likely to relocate to Scotland
- People will avoid the tax by lying about where they live or how much they earn

67

It's me!,

14/03/2008 14:26:58
#56. As I understand it the Scottish government has authority to vary income tax by 3p either way. If the Inland Revenue is saying it cannot do it I have to ask why not. Are they unprepared and if so why? This has been on the cards since the Scottish Government was reformed. Are they not prepared to do it because they see it as a local tax. If this is the case it is probably because of political pressure from the Paymaster General and others at the Treasury. Anything to undermine the Scottish Government because abolition of council tax in Scotland will cause unrest in the rest of the UK and they will have to follow suit. They know council tax is unfair and unjust but they haven't the balls to do anything about it.
68

It's me!,

14/03/2008 14:34:58
Tag it onto vat. It will cost nothing extra to collect and no one will notice. Everyone will pay according to what they spend whether the income be from employment, self employment, dividend income, bank interest etc etc. Each according to their means. Allocate according to the local postcode in which it was collected. Make up any differences from central taxation as happens now. No more local collections duplication all over the UK.
69

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 14:48:04
69

Aye I can see how much thought and effort went into that post.

Q1 Because you will end up getting an English council tax bill instead. A higher tax bill!!!!!

Q2 You wont have to, the firms will do it themselves in the same way they set up their present systems.

Q3 Those in favour are telling you the impact will be better than the present impact of the council tax those who are not in favour will tell you the obvious lie that it wont. Either way there has been mention of an impact but only those in favour have managed to produce figures to back up their claims.

As for the rest I await with baited breath for the evidence.

Its commenting on the sheer idiocy of posts like these that gives me the unfair reputation for being obnoxious. Why should a post like this not be treated with the total distain it deserves????
70

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 14:50:18
69 And further

"- People will avoid the tax by lying about where they live or how much they earn"

Let me put this in capitals so it stands out.

"PEOPLE WILL AVOID THE TAX BY LYING ABOUT WHERE THEY LIVE OR HOW MUCH THEY EARN"

And these people dont do that now?????
71

Miss H,

14/03/2008 15:15:14
69 Give an English address you become resident in England so you pay English council tax and get English services. Your choice but if you have kids I hope you have saved up for their tuition fees.
72

,

14/03/2008 16:05:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
73

Highland Mighty,

14/03/2008 16:14:45
70. It's not the UK income tax being altered. It's a whole new tax and even the SNP say so.
74

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 16:17:43
76

Every tax ever introduced used to be a whole new tax whats yer point apart fae trolling of course?
75

Jock 107,

14/03/2008 16:40:23
#71 yourself

Tories tagged poll tax onto VAT, when Heseltine abolished it. VAT was 15%, raised to 17.5% to allow for the transition to council tax. It never got reduced back, not even when nLabour got in.
76

Highland Mighty,

14/03/2008 17:02:20
77. Are you going for a record on 'most consecutive idiotic posts'? I would have thought 322 in a row would have been enough.
77

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 17:11:26
79

And that from a prat who has to post with several different monikers in order to try and hide how long he actually trolls on these threads posting p*sh after p*sh after p*sh on any and all subjects.
You sad little no life troll.
78

Nikostratos,

14/03/2008 17:34:22
#73
LET ME PUT IT IN CAPITALS SO IT STANDS OUT

UNDER THE L.I.T IT WILL BE EVEN EASIER AND MANY MORE PEOPLE WILL AVOID THE TAX BY LYING ABOUT WHERE THEY LIVE OR HOW MUCH THEY EARN"

EXCEPT THOSE ON P.A.Y.E WHO NO DOUBT WILL PICK UP THE FINAL BILL
79

Richardinho,

14/03/2008 17:47:25
Just a point-if this tax will raise less money-does that not make it a tax cut?
80

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 17:59:34
81

And yet another moniker from HM.

Now prove it.
81

Andrew Allan,

14/03/2008 18:11:38
#81.,Nikostratos.
Nikostratos consider this, you live in Scotland in a council area, and you either qualify for benefit or you don't. If you done you are receiving either a large enough wage, or are receiving an income which could be claimed to be a wage of sorts, from investments etc..., and like the none doms it is possible to work out a reasonable sum of taxation as local income tax. As for people hiding what they have, these people will still have to prove what is paying their very large bills etc..., but people will always try to hide some of what they have, however illegal it maybe.
82

Long time reader, first time poster,

edinburgh 14/03/2008 20:50:50
If this could work it would be great. Council tax can be burdensome on some if they live in big houses and have low wages/incomes - I'm thinking particularly of old age pensioners. But this LIT proposal is barking. Work harder, get taxed more - and potentially (and I think probably) more than council tax. There are a couple of big issues, the primary one being the £1bn hole in the figures - council tax rebate won't come to Scotland bcs we won't have council tax so how can we have a rebate to help the govt. finances out for when poor people can't pay. No matter what Salmond says he ain't going to get it. Next the collection of this damn thing - Salmond reckons HMRC are going to collect it for him, he'll pay them back. Oh sweet irony - a separatist relying on the UK govt to collect a tax bcs is would be too expensive for him to set up an agency to do it himself. Admit it the wheels are starting to come off. In any case, HMRC has no power to levy a local tax, only national taxes, so they couldn't do it for him. As to this cr*p about 'scottish govt. elected so Westminster should bend over backwards to help them out' - all I can say is grow up. I mean they're elected to govern, to make decisions, not moan and whine whenever they can't get their own way. Last moan of the night - I've never seen a more cobbled together piece of sh*te than this consultation paper, full of assertions, unsupported rhetoric and virtually no figures, no analysis of the impact on scottish businesses who will have to help administer this. Enough.
83

democracy,

Scottish Borders 14/03/2008 22:08:24
Oh dear, oh dear, how dare the Nationalist minority Government presume to believe they can run Scotland, when it is as plain as the nose on your face that only New Labour, or any of the other Unionist parties know best and it is their god given right to do so.
So the evil Nazi Nationalists should hand over power to the Scottish New Labour party, leader of the Unionist regime in Scotland, and rule that the Scottish people no longer have a right to vote and that the Kilt and whisky and haggis and heather and thistles and deep fried mars bars are forever banished from this northern region of England and all Scots must swear allegiance to the English queen and to Westminster and all Scots will be placed on minimum wages and ALL Scottish revenues to pour into London for eternity!!
84

frank mcbride,

lusitania 14/03/2008 22:28:21
#85, LTR.

You are, really, an intelligent person.

Why should the SG expect Westminster to pay LA taxation support? Why should Westminster permit HMCR to collect legitimate taxes? Why would the Westminster Chancellor allow such sensible practices when there is a potential "black hole" of £8bn in the UK Budget? Unthinkable!!!!

BTW, why should your cobbler have to deal with excrement? Have you no shame?
85

fritigern,

Inverness 14/03/2008 22:47:17
As a pensioner I now pay about 15% of my income in Council Tax. A few miles away lives one of the richest people in the country who can only be paying a samll fraction of 1% in Council tax, how is that fair? Personally I would welcome the complete abolition of Local Government and the services provided by it at present administered nationally and paid for nationally, with a legal requirement of all citizens to receive the same level of basic services. Think of the saving in not having to pay allowances to local councillors, though why they need allowances considering the enormous amount they receive in backhanders from despoilers, sorry developers, I do not know.
86

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/03/2008 10:12:34
85

"Work harder, get taxed more - and potentially (and I think probably) more than council tax."

Do the sums for yourself or phone a friend and ask them to do the sums for you if your as stupid as you look in print you will be pleasently surprised.
87

Highland Mighty,

15/03/2008 12:24:10
87. Why should the HMRC administer the SNP's new tax? HMRC is a UK-funded agency and has no role in collecting local taxes which are solely the responsibility of local authorities.

Why is the SNP demanding to keep all Council Tax benefits when they are scrapping Council Tax? These UK benefits were to pay the tax for the poorest and as these people will not be paying LIT either, they won't need benefits, will they.

The SNP can't get their figures to add up and are astonishingly expecting the rest of the UK to fill the gap!

Why not have 4p or 5p income tax rise instead of just 3p so council tax is covered entirely??

 

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