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From MoD to Help the Aged, critics lay into Salmond's income tax plan

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Published Date: 25 November 2008
ALEX Salmond's plans for a local income tax suffered a fresh blow yesterday when it emerged that a number of new organisations were opposed to the idea.
The First Minister has made the abolition of council tax and its replacement with a local income tax (LIT) a flagship policy for the SNP government.

But the plans have come in for intense criticism from business leaders, opposition politicians and
trade unions, with warnings the tax would deter business and lead to cuts in local services.

Yesterday, the Scottish Government published the results of an official consultation process, which showed that a number of new organisations, including the Ministry of Defence and Help the Aged, have now raised serious concerns about the tax.

Defence officials warned LIT would mean a massive escalation in costs for a range of different ranks, while Help the Aged said there was a real risk services for the elderly would be cut to pay for the new tax.

A total of 86 organisations responded to the consultation. Seventy of them simply studied the merits or drawbacks of each form of taxation, with some raising new criticisms that had not been made public before.

Only 16 gave direct responses to the new tax. Of these, ten favoured LIT and five supported the council tax.

John Swinney, the finance secretary, focused on 430 responses from individual members of the public who contributed to the consultation, a majority of whom backed LIT, rather than the organisations.

He said 55 per cent of those individuals thought LIT was the fairest form of tax. "The council tax has to go. The Scottish Parliament agrees and now this is welcome evidence that Scots up and down the country agree," he said.

Opposition parties, however, concentrated on the more critical responses from organisations. These included:

• Citizens Advice Scotland, which said some on low incomes would be worse off under LIT because they would not qualify for the same amount they received now in council tax benefit.

• The Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountability, which said LIT would have to be set at 4.5p in the pound, not 3p as the SNP wants, to maintain funding and service levels.

• CBI Scotland, which said there was not a "serious" assessment of the estimated costs to business of implementing the LIT.

• The Ministry of Defence said: "Privates in single living accommodation would see their charges rise from £33 a year to £600 under LIT, an increase of over 1,700 per cent. Experienced personnel would be hit hard, too. An army warrant officer could see their charge rise from £84 a year to £1,570 in LIT, an increase of over 1,700."

The Tories' Derek Brownlee said LIT was the SNP's "very own tartan tax bombshell", adding: "The more detail on local income tax people see, the less they like it. Real questions have been raised by groups across Scotland that we need answers to."

Labour's Andy Kerr said: "The SNP's new tax is an attack on jobs, which will drive high-earners out of Scotland and ensure we are unable to attract corporate headquarters."

The Liberal Democrats said the consultation process was flawed because it offered only the option of a nationally-set tax, rather than leaving it to councils to decide the rate. Jeremy Purvis, for the Lib Dems, said: "A local income tax that is genuinely local would be fairer."


BACKGROUND

MINISTERS were accused of deliberately burying "bad news" when they published the details of the local income tax consultation yesterday.

With politicians' eyes on the Chancellor's Pre-Budget Report, there were claims by opposition parties that the SNP government had deliberately put out the consultation on the same day to avoid forensic media scrutiny.

Andy Kerr, Labour's finance spokesman, said: "It just shows how much the SNP have to hide from their discredited policy to release the consultation in such a manner. (It] shows their lack of confidence in their own policy."

Derek Brownlee, for the Conservatives, said: "It's not clear if Alex Salmond thinks that today is a good day to 'bury bad news' or if he feels the need to compete with Gordon Brown with his very own tax con."



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1

Rufus T. Firefly,

24/11/2008 22:32:09
Some more comment on LIT

"LIT will make Scotland the highest-taxed part of the UK and this might encourage businesses to leave."
- INSTITUTE OF DIRECTORS

"Scottish firms would be placed at a competitive disadvantage to companies in other parts of the UK because LIT additions to wage packets would be passed on to customers."
- SCOTTISH CHAMBERS OF COMMERCE

"Investors and businesses who are thinking of coming to Scotland will be scared away because of the extra income tax."
- CBI SCOTLAND

"LIT would bring unwelcome extra bureaucracy and cost to businesses because of all the extra paperwork created in sorting out employees' income tax. Lib Dem proposals for different rates for different areas would make it even worse."
- THE FEDERATION OF SMALL BUSINESSES
2

,

25/11/2008 00:13:27
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3

,

25/11/2008 00:15:47
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4

Rufus T. Firefly,

25/11/2008 00:20:58
2 The McKellarator,25/11/2008 00:13:27
#1 Hi Andy, long time no see.

Hi Andy? Whats that all about?

Commiserations on only getting the second post.

First post grabs all the attention.
5

,

25/11/2008 00:22:31
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6

,

25/11/2008 00:23:46
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7

Conan the Librarian™,

25/11/2008 00:24:48
2
Ahoy there and, indeed, hoos poos.

Thanks for not using capitals, I have a headache.

Well I will in the morning when I read this again.


8

Conan the Librarian™,

25/11/2008 00:26:39
4
Only about...well...until now.
9

subrosa,

25/11/2008 00:27:02
'while Help the Aged said there was a real risk services for the elderly would be cut to pay for the new tax.'

What proof did they offer or is this just scaremongering. I suspect the latter.

10

The Strategist,

25/11/2008 00:28:21
I wonder if the Scotsman has a specialist team whose entire role in life is chasing around the country looking for people that don't like the idea of local income tax?
11

druidh,

edinburgh 25/11/2008 00:29:21
"Only 16 gave direct responses to the new tax. Of these, ten favoured LIT and five supported the council tax."


So the headline should have been - 2:1 Majority in Favour of LIT???
12

Rufus T. Firefly,

25/11/2008 00:32:58
7 Conan the Librarian™,

SORRY TO HEAR ABOUT THE HEADACHE.
13

Rufus T. Firefly,

25/11/2008 00:35:35
Anyway gotta dash, I have to be up at 6-30 in the morning to start posting and annoy Aberdeenshire Scot (Ayrshire Scot, Kyle the Carrot, We are Responsible for ourselves, Pee Stan Pyjama Pants Man, Weirdo, McKellerator, etc all the same person)
14

Conan the Librarian™,

25/11/2008 00:41:16
12
THANKS, IT'S NOT TOMORROW YET!
15

Conan the Librarian™,

25/11/2008 00:42:46
13
Weirdo...?
16

Millerman1,

25/11/2008 00:42:46
The snp are really finished, a shower of left wing idiots who would ruin this part of the UK.

See the snp activists change usernames but still spew from the activists handbook(it was being given away with a free Koran at the snp conference this year) try in vain to float the sinking ship.lol.

I predicted when this LIT idea first came to light it would put this part of the UK in the highest tax list of the world.

Scunnert- BIG SMILE

Yet another reason why Union is best.
17

Millerman1,

25/11/2008 00:45:20
13#

Smashing stuff kep up the good work.
18

Conan the Librarian™,

25/11/2008 00:51:04
16
lol."Kep" drinking the cider Millerman1.
19

Millerman1,

25/11/2008 01:03:36
18#

You really are hard up, seems the snp are accepting that it`s all over, not even the protest voters want you it seems.lol.

Unlike alot of the loonies from the snp i do not issue another post because i have spelt a word wrong by mistake.

Sorry you could not understand such a simply statement, that`s an snp education for you.lol.

Oh- as you are so worried about such things you might like to know that it is ILLEGAL to use a trademark as you do not have the right, anyway no one in their right mind would want to fake the village idiot as you get called on the Herald.lol and LOL.
20

Millerman1,

25/11/2008 01:04:29
18#

I see Rufus runs rings around you.lol.
21

Conan the Librarian™,

25/11/2008 01:14:45
19
Sorry Millarman1, I took you for another unionist personae.lol.

22

Millerman1,

25/11/2008 01:22:04
21#

Union is best and i think deep down you understand that, you know it makes sense!

GOTCHA!

23

Conan the Librarian™,

25/11/2008 01:25:04
22
Indeed, and Good Morning to you.

Seeing lights?
24

karin.m,

25/11/2008 01:27:22
labour put britain in one trillion of debt

ONE TRILLION.............
25

karin.m,

25/11/2008 01:28:04
conan ello.


hoos poos.
26

Conan the Librarian™,

25/11/2008 01:29:13
25
Hoos poos too.
27

Millerman1,

25/11/2008 01:31:54
23#

Yes-The same ones as you the blue lights of Danger.lol

GOTCHA!
28

Millerman1,

25/11/2008 01:33:12
Hoos poos yooos toooss snp looooosssss.
29

Millerman1,

25/11/2008 01:34:35
Did anyone hear Scunnert on the radio?

Take the floor with Robbie Shepherd.
30

Conan the Librarian™,

25/11/2008 01:40:10
27
Yes-The same ones as you-the blue, blue, lights...of Danger!

Without the lol.

Would have been better.
31

,

25/11/2008 01:42:00
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32

Pilrig.,

Livingston 25/11/2008 05:48:04
16 - Ah yes, we need an economic genius like G. Broon to protect us from the coming recession.
33

drunken proffet,

Tassy 25/11/2008 06:01:56
If you discount the opposition, the trade unions and the people who have the wealth or several wage earners in their house, it is not too difficult to find folk who disagree with this move. Why trade unions, well the thought of a council relying on income to dictate employment levels it would bring the public sector in line with the private sector and encourage them to live within their income. The last thing a trade unionist needs is a limit on their demands.
34

John S,

25/11/2008 07:09:54
Scottish Government "We will publish a Bill to abolish council tax in this Parliamentary year".Nov 24 2008
Wendy Alexander said if the SNP don't get the local income tax bill through parliament she will put a vote of no confidence in the government so they will have to go to the people.Mar 29, 2008
Now the opposition will have the chance to defeat the Scottish Government on the LIT bill and call an election, it will be either be shut up time or defeat the Scottish Government time then election time.
35

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 25/11/2008 07:54:34
GB007 @5

Well written post at 4? It's copied and pasted. any idiot can do that.....

Now if rufass was to have an original thought, then he may (or may not) be congratulated on a well wirtten post.

To date, I have seen no evidence of that occurnace ever happening.
36

Billiam Wallace,

#22 25/11/2008 07:56:06
Millerman. Are you drunk on Miller Lite beer? Do elucidate as to the vast benefits that belonging to the union is conferring upon Scotland. I can't think of any and everytime unionists such as you are asked for details they go off on a rant against the SNP and Alex Salmond without ever addressing the question. Do tell us why the union is best. 5 million Scots would be interested to know I am sure.
37

,

25/11/2008 08:18:01
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38

,

25/11/2008 08:19:13
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39

Marian,

25/11/2008 08:23:21
The deceit in the local income tax versus council tax argument rests solely with those who seek to perpetuate a regressive council tax that hits the poorest and most vulnerable hardest.

Fact is that the Local Council acts as an agent of central government for most services; education, social work, police, building control, etc with a little latitude for local views. Only planning, rubbish collection, street lighting, sports facilities and arts provision are wholly within its remit; and even then "guidance" is provided by the central authority.

Roughly 80% of local councils' budgets come from central (Holyrood ) government with but 20% from the dreaded council tax.

Amongst the problems with the Council Tax are: (i) too many houses in the same band within any Council make it effectively a poll tax where everyone pays the same (ii) The relief to people on low incomes is far too low and (iii) Councils cannot vary non-domestic rates - another nationalised local tax - so that any changes in expenditure are borne disproportionately by the Council Tax payers.

So as "he/she who pays the piper calls the tune", we should be looking at the whole idea of Council Tax with a view to removing it completely!

Surely it is much fairer to have Tax for local services determined by income and not by the notional value of a house? The Scottish National Party are proposing quite simply that the present Council tax based upon property “value” will be abolished and in its place there would be a local income tax for local authority services which would amount to adding a uniform nationwide rate of 3p on to the 20p basic rate of income tax.

This would ensure for the first time that citizens would pay according to their income rather than paying based upon what kind of house they have and where they happen to live as is the case under the present Council Tax.

Council tax is especially unfair on pensioners because council tax as a share of the basic state pension is
40

Marian,

25/11/2008 08:23:46
continued........

Council tax is especially unfair on pensioners because council tax as a share of the basic state pension is continually rising. The poorest 20 per cent of pensioners pay nearly six times more in council tax than the richest 20 per cent of non-pensioners as a proportion of their income.

Under local income tax, most pensioners would be better off. Pensioners who don't pay any income tax, won't pay any local income tax either.

Not only would this proposed system based upon PAYE be fairer it would be far simpler and much less costly to collect than the existing bureaucratic nightmare that is required for the collection and administration of the Council Tax.

I would also point out that Sir Michael Lyon in his recent report to the Government on the Council Tax in England, said that future governments should consider introducing more radical reforms such as a local income tax as a fairer method of raising taxes for local services. The former Mayor of London Ken Livingstone has gone on record as stating he’d like to abolish the council tax and replace it with a local income tax, suggesting that with a 2p increase in the basic rate of income tax the Government could afford to get rid of the Council Tax on London.

According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies on average in Scotland a single person earning £33,270 and below in a Band D property and families living in a Band F property with an income of £64,440 and below will be better off under the Scottish National Party local income tax proposals.

You can check how the Scottish National Party proposed uniform local income tax of 3p on to the 20p basic rate of income tax would affect your personal circumstances by choosing an example via the following link http://paddington.snp.org/jthomas/savings.php

Cathy Jamieson in her infamous Newsnight Scotland interview claimed that Band A pensioner households will benefit by saving £180 per annum on their Council Tax under New Labour's pr
41

Marian,

25/11/2008 08:24:06
continued.......

Cathy Jamieson in her infamous Newsnight Scotland interview claimed that Band A pensioner households will benefit by saving £180 per annum on their Council Tax under New Labour's proposal to tinker with the existing Council Tax but under the Scottish National Party's local Income Tax for example a pensioner household on a joint income of £9050.60 will pay absolutely NO local income tax whatsoever!

Also New Labour's claim is based on their patently absurd assumption that everyone on low incomes lives in Band A households! In fact the New Labour proposal does nothing for the large number of people on low income who have the misfortune to pay a Council tax which is based upon the higher Bands! Also some Districts in Scotland have very few Band H households e.g Orkney where it is said there are only two. By far the greatest number and the highest proportion of the whole of Band H households are located in either Edinburgh or Glasgow so this must mean that New Labour are proposing to substantially increase the Band H tax on these households in Edinburgh and Glasgow not only to reduce the Council Tax for the lower proportion of Band A houses in Edinburgh and Glasgow but also more sinisterly in order to cross-subsidise the Council tax Band A households in the Districts elsewhere in Scotland that have few Band H households!
42

Queen D,

Glasgow 25/11/2008 08:42:09
I do get tired of the media pressing home lies . spin and drivel.
Anyone seen the Daily Record headline this morning?
Total lies! But being a Labour supporting paper it continues on its merry way lying and delivering misinformation to the feeble minded.
Does that remind me of any other newspaper?
You may say so , I could'nt possibly comment.
43

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 25/11/2008 08:49:48
Funny how the MoD are laying into Salmond since they won't be getting two new carriers that were to be built in the Clyde since all the money has dried up due to mismanagement by Liebour.
44

oder,

Scotland 25/11/2008 09:42:00
39 Marian,

well done ! a clear and constructive view makes a difference from the usual drivel of the anti SNP supporters!
45

,

25/11/2008 09:49:18
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46

John S,

25/11/2008 10:02:07
What it could cost you-Herald -Mar 14 2007
SNP plans extra 3p on basic rate to replace council tax
The Nationalists claimed that independent analysis of their proposals by the Institute for Fiscal Studies showed that almost nine out of 10 Scots would pay less tax under the proposals, and insisted that this made the weakening of local democracy a price worth paying.
What it could cost you
Pensioner households paying no income tax would pay no local income tax, saving all of current council tax bill. Other examples, based on Glasgow council tax, are:
# Single person earning £15,000 paying £607 for band A house - £299 (£308 less)
# Single person earning £24,755 paying £910 for band D house - £592 (£318 less)
# Single person earning £35,360 paying £910 for band D house - £910 (same)
# Family with single income of £10,700 paying £943 on band B house - £170 (£773 less)
# Family with two incomes of £19,166 and £24,800 (a nurse and a police officer) paying £1213 on band D house - £1017 (£196 less)
# Family with two incomes of £44,480 and £24,800 (primary headteacher and office administrator) paying £1752 on band F house - £1752 (same)
# Family with two incomes of £60,277 and £80,000 (MP and company executive) paying £2426 for band H house - £3906 (£1480 more)
http://tinyurl.com/6qsaot
Local Income Tax calculator from Living in Glasgow website.
http://tinyurl.com/5b6cpd
47

,

25/11/2008 10:07:25
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48

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 25/11/2008 10:09:35
There is too much "old labour" in the SNP. That is why we are seeing all these "tax and spend" proposals.

Oh yes, the romantic dream of independence looks really good if you picture a Highland scene in the evening with the sun setting across the glen and a lone piper playing an lament.

However, the reality will be nothing like that. For those of you who are old enough, you will remember the dark days of labour in the 1970s. Scotland in the early part of the 21st century will not be a whole lot different---mark my words.
49

It's me!,

25/11/2008 10:11:24
Of course the better off, such as company directors, will complain about paying more local tax. They want the less well off to subsidise their lifestyle. They believe they deserve it but basically they are just greedy.
50

John H,

edinburgh 25/11/2008 10:16:58
The big problem with LIT is how do they calculate earnings. Many sections of society have it within their grasp to avoid paying tax on earnings simply because they do not declare them. Any person running a cash business without the need to give a receipt is in a privileged position indeed and more than likely at the fiddle.
51

Matt there,

Somewhere 25/11/2008 10:28:46
"The snp are really finished, a shower of left wing idiots who would ruin this part of the UK."

Yes, Millerman. And we know THAT is the job of Labour. No, in fairness it is their job to ruin all parts of the UK.
52

noswod,

Honestas 25/11/2008 10:32:08
Olde Slamond oor elite RBS trained economist must be on the same whiskey as Margaret Thatcher its called "Kentucky Brainrot ego's lose elections" What madness to be launched just in time for the next election and with a £500m reduction in the Barnett formula give away to Scotland its guaranteed to lose the SNP the next election. Scottish electors do not like poll taxes, elite educated economists and scientists like them because they have lost it.
53

Walter Ego,

Durness 25/11/2008 10:36:50
Alex?john, the game's up. What about the Council Tax freeze?
54

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 25/11/2008 10:38:47
19 Sam the racist troll speaks dismissively of an ''snp education''. Clearly you did not benefit from any education at all Sammy, it's never too late. Why don't you look up the Langside College Sammy ? That's near enough to where you live, yes ?
55

New Town Resident,

25/11/2008 10:41:17
Could someone who understands the LIT proposals answer a few genuine questions for me please?

1. How do people who live and work outside Scotland pay the tax on say a second home in Scotland - or does the second home in Scotland come for free now?

2. What about people who earn a sizeable wad outside Scotland, but whose principal residence is in Scotland. If they are registered as earning the money in England for example do they pay LIT on their English earnings as well as their Scottish earnings? e.g. Mr. Salmond's Westminster earnings, which presumably come through an English tax office?

3. What about small Scottish companies who mainly trade in England? Can they move their notional headquarters/place of employment to an English address and pay their staff via an English tax office to the notional UK company address/local bank for onward transfer?
56

Boswall,

25/11/2008 10:52:24
1 of the critical flaws of the LIT is the ease of avoiding paying what some might consider to be the full amount.

It's far easier to recategorise income (than property) and as such not be liable to pay tax on it.

Taking my own example, my current band G payments would fall from £1800 to £450 based on a taxable income of £15K.

And that's my point - when people who would actually pay LESS are saying it's a daft idea you'd think the SNP might start to take notice.
57

person who's right,

Edinburgh 25/11/2008 10:52:39
Does nobody else see the irony of Andy Kerr (Labour) saying:

“The SNP's new tax is an attack on jobs, which will drive high-earners out of Scotland and ensure we are unable to attract corporate headquarters."

Perhaps the most certain way of making sure we don’t have any jobs or corporate headquarters, Andy, is for the UK Labour Government to bulldoze our biggest companies into being taken over by ones based in London..!

What a hypocrite.
58

Dav,

Edinburgh 25/11/2008 10:58:35
# 39, 40 and 41 Marian – Sanity at last!

Administratively speaking, your suggestions are pure gold. The inevitable burdensome bureaucracy involved with a LIT would be needless. Indeed the term LIT would need to go. Local government funding would be paid directly from the tax payer. Business tax would be another issue.

It must be a nationally set tax (incorporated into income tax) and collected by HMRC.

The SNP should be prodding the UK government to adopt this system nationally. The benefits to Scotland, should independence ever draw near, are immense. A tried and tested, working model already in place. All the Scottish government would need to do is assimilate the process into their new revenue collection system.
59

Alan B,

25/11/2008 11:28:41
Labour run MOD come out against LIT no surprise there. The reasoning against LIT is plainly stupid. I do not support LIT but find the ridiculous opposition based on incredibly stupid reasons, find me arguing more against the complaints about it than the tax itself.

Also given that labour are going to increase income tax to 45% for the top bracket how is that in any way compatible with labour complaints that moving top rate tax to 43% by including a 3% LIT would cause business to reject scotland.

Labour are so stupid they cannot even put a coherent argument together. Having said that they might not be stupid and might just be relying on the stupidity of the much of the electrate.

60

Alan B,

25/11/2008 11:33:33
#New Town Resident

1) 2nd homes would not be liable for LIT but some existing form of property tax. Primary residence would be worked out in a similar way as at present.

2)No, you would pay LIT on your primary residence. If you lived in england you would pay council tax or what ever system they have.

3)LIT is a tax on the individual and his/her place of residence. Where a business is located is irrelevent.
61

Alan B,

25/11/2008 11:37:02
#Boswall

If you take that argument to its logical conclusion then you would argue for replacing income tax with a property tax.
62

shivago8,

livingston 25/11/2008 12:01:57
Alot of guff from the people who are worried and will have to pay more.

What about the people who are being robbed today and have been for years over this damned wrong,unfair and flawed TAX.

Two disabled pensioners in a wee bungalow paying £210 A MONTH.Please will someone get real and stop this highway robbery
63

,

25/11/2008 12:04:23
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64

New Town Resident,

25/11/2008 12:16:01
~61. Tks very much for the answer Alan B.

This does seem to suggest to me therefore that all HMCR offices in England will need to both check for a Scottish residential addresses, and ask all taxpayers to declare the address given is the principal place of residence? Otherwise those Scottish residents in the PAYE system via an English tax office could use another address in England (in my case for example I was thinking of using that of my daughter, who happens to live in a house I own in England where I stay when working down south).

Is a principal residence declaration already in tax legislative force for all UK residents, or will it need new Westminster legislation do you think?

I agree with your point about how fatuous Labour are in arguing disincentives.

65

Doh,

25/11/2008 12:16:42


Most of the objections seem to be basd on Labour's refusal to reform the Council Tax Benefit scheme to accomodate the introduction of LIT.

This is what Labour spin doctors would call joined-up government.

66

Shredder,

25/11/2008 12:18:01
I found it ominous that Derek Brownlee himself has labelled poll tax 2 as the Nationalists' "very own tartan tax bombshell". Wakey wakey, all you Nats out there: listen to the experience of the last party which tried to abolish the traditional UK property based system of local taxation.

Any system which is not property based necessarily has more in common with the infamous Tory poll tax than anything else. Tick! Tock!
67

Alastair the First,

25/11/2008 12:41:35
67: Rubbish. The poll tax was a lump sum, the same amount paid by all. It was however actually fairer than the current council tax where only homeowners pay. LIT is even fairer as it takes into account ability to pay in a way that council tax does not.

To compare LIT to the poll tax displays amazing ignorance.
68

brownlie,

25/11/2008 12:45:06
67 Shredder

Any system which is not property based has more in common with the infamous Tory poll tax than anything else.

Good statement - it's just a pity that it's nonsense.

The council tax system, apart from not being based on ability to pay, is seriously flawed.

It is estimated that in 2007 the amount of council tax not paid came to around £760,000,000 in the UK. The Treasury have since claimed that local income tax would be too difficult to collect!

Is that logical?

It is estimated that, of that total, £25,000,000 was not paid in Glasgow.

Yet we have the leader of Glasgow Council has since been on TV saying that a local income tax would be too difficult to collect!

Is that logical?
69

Alan B,

25/11/2008 12:47:23
#New Town Resident

"Is a principal residence declaration already in tax legislative force for all UK residents, or will it need new Westminster legislation do you think?"

If you think about council tax at the moment we have primary addresses. So if you own a second home you pay a reduced charge, although that is up to individual councils. For many second homes I think it is about 50% discount. So while that is obviously not a tax on income the principle suggests that we do have rules and legislation round primary places of residence for tax purposes.

Furthermore when the parliament was set up it was set up with 3% income tax changing powers on the standard rate. Income tax like that would be based on primary residency (i would imagine). As such i would imagine that that laws in place that would apply in a similar fashion to LIT.

I do not agree with LIT as I think it is wrong to overload one tax and we need a widely based tax system in which a property tax is one component. I also think it is important that councils can vary their own rates.

As LIT is residency based for the current proposals i do not think there are many complications. However complications could arise if they bend to pressure to not only include lit on salaried type income. If they were to include dividends and business taxation then it would get alot more complicated and more avoidance strategies would come into play.

Take a small business that registers itself in england. The owner takes money in dividends and not salary. Currently he would avoid lit on that income. If they include it then i would assess that by registering the business in england the owner would be paying corporation/dividend tax in england and therefore could avoid lit.
70

Boswall,

25/11/2008 13:12:39
#62 Alan B

Not when you're talking in the context of a local tax as I believe the debate is about.
71

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

25/11/2008 13:16:22
My initial problem with the proposals was that it was not actually a LOCAL Income Tax. Fortunately it now seems that there is going to be a sunset clause that at least puts a timescale on making sure that happens.

Most other objections relate to technical issues with the tax - it is impotant that the Scottish Government listens to these genunie concerns and takes action to ensure that these problems do not occur.

What they do not want to do is be like the Labour Party. Labour need to take their heads out of the sand. If they genuinely support a property tax (and I have no problems with that) then they really need to tell us what it is instead of giving us all this airy-fairy guff.
72

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

25/11/2008 13:21:15
One thing should be clear - retention of Council Tax in its prsent form is not an option.

It at the very least needs reforming if not replaced.

Certainly an argument could be made to bring in more directed assistance for groups such as pensioners who have been worst affected by Council Tax. A case could also be made for more frequent, independent revaluations. It would be far better than the nonsense of basing bands on notional 1991 values.

Personally though I would rather have a complete rethink over local taxation and there are definitely more radical alternatives out there such a local sales tax, a local income tax or even a local wealth tax.

Whatever system is put in place must, in my opinion, strengthen not lessen the accountability role of local taxation. However it is because the financial and functional relationship between central, Scottish and local government is so intertwined that accountability is a real problem.

In truth, since and before devolution, Scottish and central government has habitually managed its own expenditure by forcing local government to take on Scottish and central government responsibilities. Consequently, many Scottish Councils have had to raise Council tax year after year to cope with these increased financial pressures.

It is this deep-seated dilemma that must be dealt with if any logical system for local government finances is to be created. The functions and finances of local government must be divorced from those of the Scottish and central Governments.

One could argue that the problem is not Council Tax per se but much more fundamental and deep-rooted problems. If LIT is introduced then it must also be done in such a way that these issues are addressed as well.
73

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/11/2008 13:21:24
This article is simply a rehash of a previous one. Nothing new, move along !
74

Alan B,

25/11/2008 13:21:35
#72 Boswall

If you are talking about a property tax being better in principle than income tax then the logical conclusion is that you would be arguing that a property tax should replace income tax in general.

It does not make sense to argue that a property tax is better than an income tax in principle and not draw the conclusion that it should be extend to income tax in general.

The real argument for a property tax is that it is one tax in a basket of taxation and it will give a wider tax system and not overload one single tax. Income tax may be better than a property tax and vat etc but if we load the whole thing onto income tax we would have labours income tax rate of 83% as per the 70s and look at the economic disaster that was.
75

,

25/11/2008 13:26:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
76

Shaken,

25/11/2008 13:41:38
The article does exactly as intended, spin the truth:

O"nly 16 gave direct responses to the new tax. Of these, ten favoured LIT and five supported the council tax."

To give Rufus and his union dinosaurs (who clearly can't evaluate a simple article) the opinion that the SNP's LIT proposal has been badly received.

Riddle me this Rufus the simple minded how is the Labour 10p tax rate a fair system and the evil LIT not?

Answer - you cannot think for yourself. But I think this is bourne out in every post you make

I do not know of one single tax measure that has been introduced in te UK in the past 300 years that has had everyone's backing from the off. Unless of course you slip it in under the radar as Labour did.

77

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 25/11/2008 14:01:09
LIT is a fairer system of taxation and i'm confident it will be put in place. The other parties should come forward with a better alternative, in other words put up or shut up. Have to laugh at the Scotsman printing anything Andy Kerr say's. The guy gives the immpression of a used car salesman
78

Shredder,

25/11/2008 14:04:12
#70: why can't you Nationalists heed the warning of the CBI in Scotland that the imposition of a 3p (this is being extremely optimistic!) additional income tax would add to the administrative burden on companies and put many off relocating to Scotland, especially if their employees could get lower income tax rates in England.

You Tartan Tories are all in favour of a business friendly separatist Scotland, after all!
79

lulach mac gille coemgain,

25/11/2008 14:16:09
‘number of new organisations were opposed to the idea’

er . . . MoD and Help the Aged new ?
80

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 25/11/2008 14:19:45
80 Shredder

What makes you think it is just Nationalists in favour of LIT. The public is overwhelmingly in favour doesn't mean their all Nationalists
81

,

25/11/2008 14:20:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
82

brownlie,

25/11/2008 14:25:39
80 Shredder

Is it really necessary to be a nationalist or "Tartan Tories" to point out the unfairness of a council tax system which increases year on year irrespective of the ability to pay?

Surely the sum of £760 million lost in council taxes in one year could pay for the administration of the local income tax.

Did Labour's claim of £5000 extra taxes per head, if the SNP came into power,put individuals off voting for the SNP and how many indidivuals left Scotland because of this claim?
83

Miss H,

25/11/2008 14:36:32
If I had a hot meal for every time a Scotsman article started along the lines of 'The SNP's plans for a local income tax suffered a fresh blow yesterday when ...' I would be. Well I would be dead actually like that bloke in Monty Python who exploded after one last paper thin mint.

This story is as paper thin as that mint.
84

Miss H,

25/11/2008 14:48:50
56

1. Second homes will be taxed in the form of business rates.

2. You will pay LIT on your taxable income wherever it is earned.

3. Why would they want to do that?
85

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 25/11/2008 14:50:58
It should be obvious to all by now that given the continuing mess that unionist partys are making of the British economy, (history has shown that it doesn't really matter who is in power at Westminster), that they or their supporters should be the last ones to try and lecture anyone on economics.

Especially given how appallingly bad and hypocritical yesterdays report was for Scotland.
86

Miss H,

25/11/2008 14:51:25
57 On the other hand more people pay income tax than pay council tax. Both in terms of numbers and in terms of compliance.

Or to put it another way - fewer people are liable to pay council tax than are liable to pay income tax.
More people evade council tax than evade income tax.


87

Alan B,

25/11/2008 14:56:28
#Miss H

"You will pay LIT on your taxable income wherever it is earned."

Disagree.

You will pay LIT on total taxable income (ie salaried) based on where you live.

Say person A lives in Newcastle and Person B lives in Edinburgh. However person A works in Edinburgh and B in Newcastle. Person A would pay council tax in Newcastle and B in Edinburgh. With the LIT proposals as proposed person B would pay LIT in Edinburgh for his earning which happen to be derived from his job in Newcastle.

Primary residence is the defining factor and lit will be levied on all salaried income. ie income from other sources is not included in the current proposals.
88

Alan B,

25/11/2008 14:59:43
#80 Shredder

I do not favour lit but arguments like that are completely bogus if not down right ridiculous.
89

Miss H,

25/11/2008 15:00:17
65 I would guess that you probably could give yout daughter's address if you wanted to make that your principle place of residence.

But if you in fact intend to remain as a resident of the New Town you would be breaking the law by pretending you lived somewhere else. You would have to weigh the risks of saving money against the risk of getting caught and being taken to court to pay everything that you owed plus whatever fine is imposed on you.

Councils do this to people who evade council tax all the time - I don't see why they would be any more leniant towards people who tried to evade paying LIT.
90

Shredder,

25/11/2008 15:00:41
#86 Brownlie: how is CT unfair? What's unfair is the Nationalists' determination to narrow the tax base in Scotland so that only those who work will bear the burden. It's a basic principle of taxation that a fair and equitable system should have as many collection mechanisms as possible. You might as well say that VAT's unfair, for crying out loud!

In the real world, I've never been able to understand how it can be said that CT isn't based on the ability to pay: how many company directors live in ex council semis so as to benefit from a band B banding?

I agree that not many individuals left Scotland because of the threat that poll tax 2 may actually one day see the light of the day, but I would again quote CBI Scotland:: "Evidence from abroad has found that relatively high personal income tax levels act as a restraint on business start ups, as well as on investment and hiring of staff undertaken by micro businesses."
91

Miss H,

25/11/2008 15:05:19
91 That is what I meant. If you live in Scotland but work some of the time in England you still pay LIT in Scotland even though some of your money may have been earned in England. It doesn't matter where you work, it matters where you live.
92

Alan B,

25/11/2008 15:10:41
#Miss H

1)What would be your primary address if you worked in london 3 days a week and in scotland 2 days + weekends.

2)ditto but 5 days a week in london but coming back to scotland for the weekend.

93

Alan B,

25/11/2008 15:15:24
Having said that i think you would currently pay double the council tax, pay in london fully and in scotland fully.
94

brownlie,

25/11/2008 16:09:02
94 Shredder

If you want me to say it then I will. Vat is an unfair tax. What would have make economic sense would have been for the chancellor to take some of the vat from fuel and keep the vat on luxury items.
95

the.ally ,

max. 25/11/2008 16:14:30
My-oh-my, lions, tigers, and bears!

I do apologise if I'm repreating someone else's post content; I couldnae be bothered to read through all the New Labour political activist rot.

New Labour have ordered their lackies to pitch-in with trying to talk-down SNP's plan for LIT. Let's look at the facts. The MOD, 9pointless really commenting about this one); 'Help the Aged' is, of-course, a westminster government run and funded agency, so to merit their funding they have to do the bidding of the westminster government. Another dirty-tricks campaign from New Labour. The honest truth is, LIT would benefit old age pensioners. Put the facts to the seniors in our society and let them tell you their answer, I bet they'll say LIT everytime. Besides, didn't old Walter get arrested by the attack-dogs police at the New Labour conventio for speaking his mind! Don't believe what you read from the New Labour controlled press; it's all a load of dirty-tricks contrived shoite!
96

,

25/11/2008 16:53:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
97

New Town Resident,

25/11/2008 17:10:32
#88 Miss H. Q3. A. To try and protect dividend income from my company being caught by tax.

#93. Miss H. I was just looking at possible legal ways of avoiding (rather than evading) the tax, mainly for purely selfish purposes! Presumably there is a legal definition of "principal place of residence" for internal UK tax purposes? Alan B thought the way second homes were currently defined would do it, but I'm not so sure.

#96. Alan B. Like Messrs. Darling or Brown for example? Over to you Miss H ?

98

Scunnert,

25/11/2008 17:11:43
"Yesterday, the Scottish Government published the results of an official consultation process, which showed that a number of new organisations, including the Ministry of Deviance and Hell's Angels, have now raised serious concerns about the tax."

Yawn
99

Scunnert,

25/11/2008 17:12:54
Help the Aged:

"The Scottish team keeps abreast of changes by monitoring the Scottish Executive; sitting on appropriate committees at a national level; and conducting lobbying activities."

Says it all really!
100

Scunnert,

25/11/2008 17:17:26
This lot are a bit like the "Scottish" Labour Party:

Help the Aged
Information Resources Team
207-221 Pentonville Road
London N1 9UZ
Tel: 020 7278 1114
101

New Town Resident,

25/11/2008 17:22:31
just to clarify my post 102, my thinking was that the HMRC would have to redesign the tax form (for those who fill it in as opposed to automatic PAYE coding) for all UK citizens to confirm or deny whether their principal residence is in Scotland. At the moment I think you can ask for the tax form to be sent anywhere you like in the UK, its not necessarily home address based. So what of course if they already have the powers and there are clear legal rules on principal residence.
102

Publius,

London 25/11/2008 18:19:07
LIT is dead. Swinney should give it a decent funeral instead of dragging the corpse here, there and everywhere.
103

brownlie,

25/11/2008 18:23:29
107 Publius

No, it is not dead. You remind me very much of Gordon Brown arranging Thatcher's funeral when the old trout is very much alive, if slightly pickled.
104

,

25/11/2008 18:28:26
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105

Churchill W.,

25/11/2008 19:24:10
Shaken # 78

Did Labour have radar 300 years ago?
106

Churchill W.,

25/11/2008 19:29:10
It has probably escaped the notice of the SNP support here, but, the MOD is quite a big organisation and very conservative when it makes statements.
Unlike the SNP, which is is very Conservative and determined to transfer the tax burden in Scotland from the rich to the poor.
107

Churchill W.,

25/11/2008 19:34:07
Miss H # 93

Who is going to decide where someone lives for LIT purposes, the SNP tax muggers? No court in the land will sanction that, except under political duress from the SNP.
108

Alan B,

25/11/2008 19:35:18
#New Town Resident

"To try and protect dividend income from my company being caught by tax."

Dividend income is not currently going to be taxable via lit unless the snp change their proposals. As such take as much in dividends and not salary and you will avoid lit.

Also even if they do change and propose to hit dividend/corporation tax of small business then if the business registered in England then i think you would be able to avoid lit as corporation tax is due where company is registered and it is not really dividends but the avoidance of double taxation.

I think it is the complications of dividend/corporation tax that they propose to avoid making lit liable for this type of income.

re.. working 3 days a week in england and 2 in scotland. Was actually thinking of myself a couple of years ago.

109

Alan B,

25/11/2008 19:36:06
#Churchill W

It would be the same a council tax presently.
110

Churchill W.,

25/11/2008 19:37:32
the.ally # 100

Couldn't be bothered to read your's either...
111

Churchill W.,

25/11/2008 19:41:57
brownlie # 108

You can be the second pallbearer at Thatcher's funeral if you are so disposed. There's only two handles on a dustbin!
Incidentally, in the case of Margaret Thatcher, what is the test for life?
112

Churchill W.,

25/11/2008 19:43:09
Alan B, # 144

Who says?
113

Alan B,

25/11/2008 19:53:45
#Churchill W

Why would it not be.

You are registered at an address you pay council tax. You are registered at that address you pay LIT. Not difficult.

If you own or rent a home in scotland you will pay council tax and hence LIT. Second homes will still pay a property tax as at the moment.

There will only be any issues round people that live between 2 homes say scotland and london. I think they just pay double council tax at the moment.


114

Churchill W.,

25/11/2008 20:02:03
Alan B # 118

That's what I thought, so, who will decide where your principal residence is, the SNP LIT tax muggers?

Anybody seen Alec Salmond's sickline? I suspect he has a large touch of the CKs problem and I don't mean Calvin Klein!
115

AJM,

25/11/2008 20:05:55
#116 Churchill I take it you attempt at humour about a "test for life" is restricted to Margaret Thatcher because of her past political career not because she is an old woman with dementia. Least I hope so. Although I hated her policies, all that she did and worked with she is now being taken from her memory, like Harold Wilson I believe, it must be very hard to live with.
116

AJM,

25/11/2008 20:13:22
I am generally in favour of a local income tax. However this is still a National Income Tax as I understand, as a NIT is better than a LIT any day. However the rich will be able to get round this as easy as pie, surely by one residence being in the name of someone who is not liable for tax, elderly parent, student or even surely buy the house by a company and say it is for company use not just one person. So do not own a home in Scotland do not pay any tax.
117

Churchill W.,

25/11/2008 20:20:48
AJM # 120

You have a very strange sense of humour.
118

Churchill W.,

25/11/2008 20:29:52
AJM # 121

Do you think that your template for avoiding Salmond's LIT raid on the purses of the poor is unknown to the rich? Of course they know how to make their excess profits in Scotland and avoid paying Salmond's taxes.

Salmond's taxes are not designed to impact on his rich pals. They are designed to hit the poor in their purse. The poor cannot avoid Salmond's tax raid, they cannot switch their "official residence" to suit their taxation liabilities. Salmond's LIT tax is a raid on the purses of the poor, many of whom are on UK Government benefits anyway. Salmond is a cynical tax thief.
119

AJM,

25/11/2008 20:32:33
#122 That is actually true, but I did not think it was apparent in the post, ah well.
120

Churchill W.,

25/11/2008 20:54:13
Jill and David # 127

You are able to post now because the High Court orders against your internet postings have expired. The fact that you received the longest impositions ever in a Scottish court are not a badge of honour, but, a badge of dishonour. That you have learned nothing since your impositions and lengthy jail sentences is testament to your dedication to your particularly pernicious perversions. The law of Scotland will ensure that you will be back behind bars, soon, where you both belong.
Alternatively, a relative of one of your victims will decide that the law is too ponderous to deal with individuals of your nature and decide on a more direct method.
121

Scunnert,

25/11/2008 21:09:28
Churchill - is that your blog or character assassination?
122

Scunnert,

25/11/2008 21:12:51
Jill and David, Leadhills

"High Court orders against your internet postings have expired."

What's that about?
123

Scunnert,

25/11/2008 21:52:41
133 Jill and David, Leadhills

How do you know this is the man?
124

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 25/11/2008 21:57:12
Got it in one #11 Druidh

"Only 16 gave direct responses to the new tax. Of these, ten favoured LIT and five supported the council tax."

So the headline should have been - 2:1 Majority in Favour of LIT???

But we couldn't have that, it would appear to favour the SNP Government.

125

Scunnert,

25/11/2008 22:03:41
136 Jill and David, Leadhills

Is he really that fat?
126

,

25/11/2008 22:07:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
127

Scunnert,

25/11/2008 22:08:05
Churchill - where are you??? Time to come clean there laddie.
128

Scunnert,

25/11/2008 22:11:48
138 Jwil

It's there way of muddying the waters - queering the pitch - spitting in our soup. People reading the print edition don't get to read these comments so their spin goes unchallenged. It really is offensive.
129

Scunnert,

25/11/2008 22:14:20
140 Jill and David, Leadhills 25/11/2008 22:08:14

"...he is about 24st and he also works part time in the local oxfam store."

Is this a wind up??? Twenty four stone and works at OXFAM - LoL.
130

Scunnert,

25/11/2008 22:15:20
141 Scunnert, 25/11/2008 22:11:48

Their !!!
131

Scunnert,

25/11/2008 22:27:33
144 Jill and David, Leadhills

I'm not laughing - it's a serious allegation, but will give the poster Churchill W. the opportunity to respond before condemning him on your say so.

Did check the site out - disgusting individual - but seems like a bit of a spoof - something thrown together as a joke.

I don't know the truth of what you say but would be mad as hell if some creep touched up my kid.
132

Bzzzz,

Edinburgh 25/11/2008 23:39:45
What a load of ridiculous unionist biased rubbish, read the title and then work out how many of the "new organisations" were actually were against it?
133

Scunnert,

26/11/2008 00:00:56
146 Jill and David, Leadhills 25/11/2008 22:35:49

'...why is this fat man not coming out to defend himself? questions questions but no fat man to answer them."

This is a good point.

 

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