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Council tax freeze will throw devolution of power into reverse



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Published Date: 07 March 2008
By BILL JAMIESON
What seems a welcome move will soon rebound on us all – not least the SNP administration
WE HAVE now arrived at what the administration hopes will be one of its less contentious, purely procedural changes. I refer, of course, to the Local Council Abolition (Scotland) Bill.

No need for a referendum – it's purely a tidying up exercise....



The full article contains 903 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 07 March 2008 12:10 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Council tax , Bill Jamieson
 
1

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 07/03/2008 04:34:49
I don't know which is more irrelevant, a Labour mouthpiece like Arthur Midwinter, or a Labour-friendly mouthpiece like Bill Jamieson.
2

morris,

edinburgh 07/03/2008 07:34:25
1 (of course)

I agree. Ive read this.Ive been politically active all my life and worked in Local Government,and other Public Services and was a life long activist and Trade Union in NALGO and UNISON and Ive read the article and I am none the wiser for doing so,and quite honestly, what he is wittering on about escapes me, and also (I suspect) him!
3

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/03/2008 07:47:08
So does this mean that the old council tax now becomes the English national council tax? or am I detecting just a hint of unionist bile in this report and from a paper with so many journalists short listed for journalism accolades.

Can somebody explain to me why is it that if the council tax is the answer to local taxation then why does it have to be increaced way above inflation every year? and why are local services still being cut and why are we still expected to pay our water bills on top?

And if we were independent then we wouldnie have to worry about such meaningless drivel such as "devolution of power into reverse"
4

scottish person,

paisley 07/03/2008 08:22:08
More unionist drivel from the hootsmon.
If you lived in Paisley under a labour council for fifty years you wouldnt trust them with 10p never mind thousands of pounds.
5

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/03/2008 08:26:39
#2 I think it's pretty well understandable. It's what a lot of people have been saying for ages. "Local income tax" is a rate of tax set locally. The SNP's proposal is for a rate of tax set nationally to fund local work. It entirely removes fiscal accountability from local authorities.

And his point about the concordat which undertakes to settle all disagreements outside the public domain is extremely important too. Do you seriously support this, as someone who has apparently been a lifelong union activist? Deals done behind closed doors on issues of democratic importance? Tell me you have no qualms about that, honestly. I suspect your support is based on the party that made the plans, not the plans themselves.
6

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 07/03/2008 08:31:38
Bill Jamieson is hardly an expert?

Since 1997, Jamieson has forecast that Brown's economic policies would never work and, parroting Tory views, repeatedly downgraded Gordon Brown's annual growth rates, only to be proved wrong, time after time?
7

Duncan in Edinburgh,

07/03/2008 08:32:57
#3 The council tax remains a locally set and locally accountable tax. It isn't hard to see the difference between that and the SNP's plan to add 3 per cent to income tax for everyone and then make up the shortfall from the block grant. The SNP intends to remove fiscal accountability from local authorities. Do you seriously not see a problem with that?

Council tax is imperfect, no doubt. It is a non-progressive tax. But council tax benefit offers a means-tested rebate which effectively turns it into a more progressive tax. And council tax ensures that the wealthy non-employed still pay their way.

If the SNP were proposing a local income tax with the rate set locally which would cover the same proportion of spending as the council tax does, and if they came up with a method to ensure that the wealthy non-employed would still contribute, then I think most people would welcome it.

But what they are proposing is a central tax, able to collect far less income and needing propped up by the block grant, largely because a lot of wealthy people will no longer need to pay.

There are structural problems to address here, and Bill Jamieson is right to address them.
8

David MacVicar,

web 07/03/2008 09:02:43
I doubt the 'P' is reqlly for 'Premium Content' lore like p!sh ;)

It is hqrdly surprising a Scotsman hack has come out with this opinion piece since it coincides with Michael Johnston, MD of Scotmans publication is quoted on the herald pleading with councilors not to cut his ad. revenue.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2100406.0.Councils_urged_to_stay_united_on_tax_future.php

Oh dear, the gravy train about to leave Scotsman central! Better get Midwinter to analyse the impact for them.

I dont care what we call this new tax, it is far from perfect or fair, though its an end to the current disgraceful Labour Council tax leviathan. Any grievances about this new tax need to measured against Labours proposed new bands and re banding exercise that would certainly have meant further unfair increases.
9

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/03/2008 09:24:18
7

No Duncan it will be 3% onto Income Tax for those who fall within the criteria not for those who dont.
In England this year alone it will be 4% god knows what it will be next year or the year after but it will be above the rate of inflation whatever that is and that you can bank on.
And since when have local authorities displayed any "fiscal accountablity"?? how long have they had control over local taxation and what has been the most obvious result of this control??
Increased taxation coupled with cuts in services perhaps?? is that what you refer to as fiscal responsiblity??
You honestly dont give a t*ss about the issues at all as long as it gives you a chance to take a poke at the SNP.
10

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/03/2008 09:27:48
7

"But council tax benefit offers a means-tested rebate which effectively turns it into a more progressive tax."

That will be the benefit entitlement that the UK Government is presently threatening to withhold for political purposes even though the money doesnt actually belong to them. Aye very progressive.
Do you support this measure being taken by the UK government by the way??
11

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/03/2008 09:32:53
7

"But what they are proposing is a central tax, able to collect far less income and needing propped up by the block grant,"

Would that block grant be the same block grant we pay for with our taxes, our inward investment and North sea oil revenues???
If we were independent then the block grant wouldnt exist we would be able to pay for any perceived shortfall by our ability to spend our own national income on ourselves instead of having to give it all up to a foreign power.
Or are you going to tell us we are a nation of subsidy junkies again???

12

Gothic Rose,

07/03/2008 10:00:28
Does this mean local sevices will deteriorate,or improve, or stay the same, or disappear all together?
13

Linda,

Edinburgh 07/03/2008 10:35:36
Dubcan 7,

No tax system is perfect.
Perhaps you and Bleak Midwinter will be worse off but a "hard working couple" earning £20,000 each will be much better off unless they live in Band A house.
14

Highland Mighty,

07/03/2008 10:35:54
7. How is Council Tax 'non-progressive'?

There are eight bands compared to only three income tax bands.

What the system does need is more bands. Band H of '£212,000 and above' covers a lot of houses from modest family homes to the largest estates and there should be extra bands for the very rich.
15

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 07/03/2008 10:37:12
Council tax capping got abolished in 1997 when the daft, incompetant labour party got into power. What happened? It more than doubled in 10 years.

Any attempt to bring it back under control is a step in the right direction.
16

Highland Mighty,

07/03/2008 10:38:19
11. There you go with that childish 'foreign power' rubbish again.

Begone tedious nationalist.
17

Queen D,

Glagsow 07/03/2008 10:43:59
If I hear anymore of Prof Midwinter trundled out as an economic expert I will scream ,and you will ALL hear me!
18

Queen D,

Glasgow 07/03/2008 10:46:41
I hear that the Scotsman might lose a large part of its advertising revenue, and that some journalists might lose their jobs.
Shame!
How are the circulation figures???
19

Gothic Rose,

07/03/2008 11:04:28
Does this mean that services are measured, by how much you pay in council tax.?
20

glassbenmhor,

07/03/2008 11:05:45
I've never herd such crap in all my life ,listen Billy boy if your going to spin for Labour at least get a topic that can be spun realistically and for that old dunce Midwinter,I just can't wait of Independence,for then your prof. will truly know what 'Midwinter' is all about,but then again its always good to have a laugh.
Yes indeed,how are those circulation figures doing Mr.Editor???
21

glassbenmhor,

07/03/2008 11:19:32
This argument will however be very interesting in a couple of years when the English and Welsh Governments start to go in their own directions,in many ways the minute the day of deliverance arrives I will start feeling kind of sorry for a great deal of rural areas down south.
Because as a of us know even the Unionists shocking that it will be to them,England will be heading to the third world within a decade,don't even bother denying it,the figures are all there.The equation is one that does not smile upon 58-72 million people and next to no oil,no manufacturing base,post IT bubble,no way out of a bullied existence within Europe,vast infrastructure investment requirement ,no,no,I'm sorry but the future of England is frightening.
22

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/03/2008 11:57:12
HM

I agree council tax is progressive in fact it is rampantly progressive in its inflation busting increases. Irrespective of which band yer in this year the hike in England will be 4% and it wont matter if you can afford it or not but in Scotland it is frozen now who,s better off? ya wee troll.

19

No but it bloody well should be why else do you pay it?
Dont you actually know what your supposed to be paying specific taxes for? If service are cut then there is no legitimate reason to increase local taxation none at all so why are we???????? ask yer piece of sh*t MP.

HM

Foreign power rubbish? how so?? Isnt Westminster sitting in a Foreign capital relative to the nation of Scotland???
23

Grant,

Edinburgh 07/03/2008 12:05:41
I would have thought that the removal of ring fencing - allowing local authorities to spend their accruing resources without diktat from the central Scottish Government - is actually the opposite - of "centralising local councils". If anything it does the reverse - it empowers them. Now the whole ring fencing issue has come to the fore, it makes one wonder that before this new concordat was in place, how free were our councils in the first place to spend their money?

The problem is, that for councils, most forms of local taxation, whether it be the poll tax, or council tax or a local income tax raise a comparatively low proportion of their revenue - the majority of it being made up by central government grants. The raising of local revenue is actually a largely academic exercise.

The removal of stalinist Labour control over local government expenditure is a bigger issue. It's not so much a question of a LIT being a "central tax", but more, local government expenditure being ring fenced and resembling an addition to central government expenditure, that was significantly detrimental to our local councils.
24

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/03/2008 12:12:31
12

the level of services is dependent on the quality of the councillors we elect and their ability to work with the funding they have. As councillors are generally politicians and not accountants, financial advisors, bankers, or any other kind of fiscal professional then the chances are they will be incompetant when it comes to controlling their funding and budgets but nobody seems to give a sh*t. Government whether it is national or local is one big gravy train and it only attracts those self serving individuals who cant wait to get their noses in the trough hence we pay though the nose in taxation without benefit and get fed lie after lie after lie which many seem to accept at face value.
Anything else I can help you understand??
25

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/03/2008 12:16:21
23

There is another factor you have to remember and that is each councillor is a party political animal and follows his parties dictates first and foremost.
These councillors will define their local policies based on party political dogma and not what is good for the local infrustructure otherwise they wont be councillors for long.
26

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/03/2008 12:22:02
14 HM

£212000 is the price of a 2 bed flat in Edinburgh with less than 100m2 space numnuts. First time buyers are struggling to find anything under 150,000.
27

A McBay,

07/03/2008 13:44:23
26#

I think you'll find 'numnuts' should be spelled with a 'b', as in 'numbnuts'........

The Scotsman property section yesterday was extolling the PARC Criagmillar redevelopment, where first time buyers are apparently lining up to buy homes starting at £127k.

Whichever way you finance loal services, it always seems to look like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. The council tax feeze is welcome, but it is a valid point to question the outcome of this further down the line - reduced services or above-inflation increases in future years?

We can give up income from tolls on bridges, and give up income from increases in council tax. But can we also continue to offer free social care for a rapadily growing ageing population, with the costs of that care just getting bigger and bigger? What's the SNP view on means-testing, I wonder?

28

Rampant Warrior,

07/03/2008 13:46:49
As some posters have pointed out Labour led Councils have increased Council Tax way beyond the rate of inflation. This doesn’t work. With the local income tax scenario, spending accountability will be removed from local district councils, ensuring that vital & necessary work is prioritised accordingly. Needless losses to the public purse, for example, the Edinburgh Trams Project. The referendum on Edinburgh City road pricing & money spent on unnecessary work carried out on Edinburgh roads relating to the afore-mentioned (the outcome was known prior to any referendum) & the run-away train, the Scottish Parliament - would cease. The non-employed wealthy should be means tested for their contribution to society as is everybody else. Income taxation is the most promising method so far as it’s metered on people’s ability to pay!
29

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/03/2008 14:49:52
27

Well woopeefendoo! and how many flats are on sale relative to first time buyers looking do you think???

"but it is a valid point to question the outcome of this further down the line - reduced services or above-inflation increases in future years?"

Agreed but the problem doesnt lie with the amount collected in taxes but how those taxes are managed.
Incompetance, Party politics, and corruption are the problems not the quantity of funding. There is enough money floating around now to pay for everything and then some but it will be mismanaged and incompetantly distributed as usual and therefore to cover up the shortfall created by the incompetance and corruption we will end up paying more.
We are living in a banana republic.
Wakey wakey!!
Doesnt anybody else actually realise this yet???


30

Highland Mighty,

07/03/2008 15:56:28
Foulkes Off the CyberNat, your continued insults towards any and all of a non-nationalist persuasion are petty and pointless.

Do you really think anyone takes your endless, banal, childish and ignorant anti-UK rants seriously?
31

Highland Mighty,

07/03/2008 15:59:23
26. There is a world outside Edinburgh you know, numBnuts.
32

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 07/03/2008 17:40:22
30 HM or whoever?

Most of the time I am just posting to the same troll whos under a different guise as well you know.
You cyber parasites dont deserve courtesy I save that for people who are really interested in the topics and express honest heart felt views and opinions irrespective of what side of the fence they are on.
Unfortunatly these threads are infected by grubby sh*t stirring little trolls like you who couldnt care less about the topic or about disgusing it in any meaningful way hence the deserved abuse.
I am not the only one who has commented on yer banal posts.
33

bill-alba,

Fife 07/03/2008 19:24:19
Local democracy??? I live in a small town that had its own council and looked after the needs of said town this local accountable council was abolished and all services moved to Fife council...we now have no secordary school, no police station, no youth hostel, If I paid rent I would have to go about 6 miles to cupar where there is a council office that you can pay rent/rates. It will make absolutely no difference to most of us if all county councils were abolished.
34

morris,

edinburgh 07/03/2008 21:57:53
5

The answer to your question is that councils remain accountable to their electorate and I see the overall benefit to the majority of a tax based upon ability to pay as being all that I require to benefit the majority especially the lower earners,and those who do not benefit can well afford it. The Liberals argument about a tax which is locally variable does indeed make that council more accountable,and my immediate thought is do we apply a tax on the basis of where you live,because we deduct it at source ie from where you work.Many people will live in council areas other than where they work and this complicates this unnecessarily in my opinion.I dare say IR could cope with this, but I view it as being unnecessary.The desirability I would have thought was its simplicity,and the Liberals are as usual trying desperately to be relevant when its clear they are just complicating what need not be.
I have other things to do now but I will respond in due course if I can .
35

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/03/2008 00:21:09
#34 If central grant funding is such a good idea for councils, why have the SNP spent the last year moaning about the exact same system pertaining for the Scottish Parliament?

And the SNP's own figures from before the election showed a significant number of well-off people who don't pay income tax who would be the biggest beneficiaries of all in their LIT scheme, since they would stop paying local tax altogether.

I've no doubt that a progressive local tax could work, but in my view it has to be locally variable to encourage fiscal responsibility in local government, and it has to be extended to include income tax non-payers who are well off.
36

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 09/03/2008 08:35:40
35

Why should a NATION be forced to live off a grant when the grant is a fraction of its own national income???


Do you honestly no see the difference?? or are you just pretending to no see the difference??
It is hard to tell with you trolls sometimes.

 

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