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Tory plan to send jobless youths to boot camp



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Published Date: 27 May 2008
UNEMPLOYED youths face being sent to "boot camp" under plans to be set out by the Tories today.
In a glimpse of the hard-line approach a Tory government would take to benefit claimants, the party is to unveil plans to send under-21s who have been unemployed for three months on intensive work-related activity.

If they remain out of work for a year, they will then be required to sign up for a 12-month community work programme or face losing their benefits.

The proposals, to be outlined in a speech by Chris Grayling, the party's shadow work and pensions secretary, are the latest idea within its "work for welfare" programme.

Since the end of last year, the party has been launching policies under the themes of opportunity, responsibility and security.

To date, there have been plans to raise school performance and provide 222,000 new school places, to ensure every benefit claimant capable of working is made to do so – or to prepare for work – and for tougher prison sentences to tackle reoffending.

Mr Grayling wants to end the "street corner benefit culture" and the ability of young adults to sign on and off the dole to avoid having to qualify for the government's New Deal employment programmes.

He said: "On a typical working day, you can see young people hanging around in town centres in almost every part of this country."

The move suggests that Labour and the Tories will be competing to be seen as the toughest on welfare scroungers. The government has launched public consultation on plans to prevent people being "trapped on benefits for life".

This is expected to lead to draft new laws being published in the autumn and will introduce tougher checks on claiming incapacity benefit. The aim is to take one million people off the incapacity register by 2015.

Mr Grayling said there was a need to take some young adults with a chequered background "by the scruff of the neck" and direct them into work. He said: "This approach is designed to recognise that while young people may not always get the job they want immediately, they are better off in a job and looking to move on, than languishing outside the workplace."

James Purnell, the Work and Pensions Secretary, said the Tory plans would be a "waste of public cash" as most young people found a job within six months.

According to government figures, 85 per cent of benefit claims from unemployed adults aged 18-24 stopped within six months. Last month, there were 210,700 claiming for up to six months, 30,700 claiming for six to 12 months and only 6,000 after 12 months.

FACT BOX

THE Conservatives published a policy paper in January setting out the principles behind their aim of ending the "culture of dependency" and getting more people off benefits and into work. According to Tory figures, nearly 4.8 million people in Britain claim benefits – 837,000 on jobseekers' allowance, 2.6 million on incapacity benefit and 1.3 million on income support. The Tories propose a "REAL" solution: Respect for those who cannot work, Employment for those who can, Assessments for those claiming benefits and Limits on the length of time benefits are paid. They claim youth unemployment is higher than in 1997, while 80 per cent of new jobs have gone to foreign workers.

The full article contains 574 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 26 May 2008 9:56 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Conservative Party
 
1

Jimmy the Pie,

27/05/2008 00:18:09
What next - bringing back hanging? public floggings??
transportation to the colonies???

Oh we're the last colony.
2

The Answer,

Glasgow 27/05/2008 00:22:02
This clearly racist, a far higher proportion on white scots are living off benefits and will feel the brunt of this disgusting ploy.

Since the landslide victory over the snp, another 10,000 males have become unemployed in scotland, yet a massive 253,000 males in england have become employed over the same period of time.
3

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 00:39:35
Answer you are quite right. You certainly prove the case for independance and for Scots to control the wealth of our Nation for the benefit of the Scottish People, especially all those who have been left to rot in deprived conditions. Lets start by giving England the flick and then send every unionist down to England where their heart belongs.

And here was me thinking for a moment you are a Unionist English Patriot who betrays Scotland and its people. Sorry I must have you mixed up as a New Labour Supporter who likes a sniff of English erkies.
4

The Answer,

Glasgow 27/05/2008 01:01:58
#3
Just by blaming westminister wont solve scotslands problems. The union is dead, your going to have to stand on your own two feet sooner than you realize.
5

Allan(handofgod137),

27/05/2008 01:05:22
About time!
6

Conan the Librarian™,

27/05/2008 01:15:17
2
The Answer
Er...Landslide victory over the "snp"?
Have you looked at the question?
7

Conan the Librarian™,

27/05/2008 01:19:55
3
Sorry I didn't look down after "The Final Solution" posted, it's a troll, see response 4.
8

,

27/05/2008 01:54:59
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9

indune1,

Canada 27/05/2008 02:28:52

Now, now, calm down everyone. Upon calm reflection, this "Arbeit Macht Frei" policy does make sense and has historical precedent.

Anybody seen Adolph,Heinrich or Herman?
10

Navvy,

27/05/2008 02:37:17
A sound policy.

Independant people and an independent country go hand in hand.

The welfare state must be for those who can not and NOT for those who don't feel like it
11

Grant,

27/05/2008 02:41:29
#2 And yet England and Wales have higher unemployment!!!!

Scotland male unemployment rate: 5.3%

England male unemployment rate: 5.5%

Wales male unemployment rate: 5.8%

English and Welsh workers are more workshy than Scots workers too!!!!

Scotland Total Employment Rate: 76.5%

England Total Employment Rate: 75.1% (!!!!)

Wales Total Employment Rate: 71.8% (!!!!)

English and Welsh workers are more economically inactive as well!!!

Scotland Economic Activity Rate: 80.3%

England Economic Activity Rate: 79.4%

Wales Economic Activity Rate: 76.0%

No need to dispute the figures they are all here (in Table 18):

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/lmsuk0508.pdf



Scotland Total Employment Rate
12

indune1,

Canada 27/05/2008 02:50:51

Those stats are so close they are meaningless in terms of your argument.

Gee, England's Economic Activity Rate is .9% below Scotland's. Crikie, now there is an earth-mover!!

Give us all a break and don't insult our collective intelligence even though you are seemingly determined to do so to yours - in public.
13

brian mcc,

the arctic 27/05/2008 03:01:10
They are all good ideas so far.
Flog them, hand them a bandage
Crate them together and ship them to a colony.


What colony might that be?
14

indune1,

Canada 27/05/2008 04:12:14


Falklands.
15

,

27/05/2008 05:19:51
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16

,

27/05/2008 05:22:32
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17

missing home,

la verne 27/05/2008 06:02:53
I actually think taking,not all young, unemployed people, but troublemakers, off the streets and putting them in a boot camp might be a good thing. First time they might have a disciplined lifestyle and responsibilities, not too mention physical fitness training and a TI much tougher and with no time for their 'attitude'.
18

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 27/05/2008 06:07:35
It is a pleasant surprise to see that, for once, the nationalists are not expressing right wing views. Well done.
19

Ubi,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 06:43:55
Why should we see it as desirable to annually dole out billions of pounds of tax payers money to able to bodied young men to do nothing? That is no investment in the country's future. Getting them to focus on working for their keep is a better idea.
20

FedUpTaxPayer,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 07:36:24
Something has to be done. Half a million Poles come to the UK and get jobs, yet we still have people claiming unemployment benefit for a significant period of time. This suggests to me that perhaps not all them are really trying to find work (though of course, some will be). A solution that allows people to get benefit, while insisting they really try to get work, seems not such a bad idea.

Whether its this or something else I'm not too bothered, but a system granting benefits with no real requirement to try to work doesn't seem much of an incentive and I don't think works. A change is needed.
21

missing home,

la verne 27/05/2008 07:38:10
After reading the comments so far, I had to reread the article. Now maybe I'm not getting the whole story as I only get the online version, but seriously, folk, what is so wrong with this? Don't want to work? let your parents pick up the tab, break the law? pay serious consequences, gaol time, fines and if you can't pay the fine, community service or more prison...no, I'm not a Tory. My oldest son learned the hard way through speeding, parking and dui tickets that it's just not worth it and to fly straight. Though he never got into serious trouble, his 'nobody can tell me what to do' attitude was his problem.
'E got better' (Monty Python - Holy Grail), thank God!
22

eric,

27/05/2008 07:53:38
ok now we have sorted that out .what are they going to do with 11/13yr old yoths stabbing folks murder etc etc etc.may i suggest send them on holidays,
23

missing home,

la verne 27/05/2008 07:54:20
After reading the comments so far, I had to reread the article. Now maybe I'm not getting the whole story as I only get the online version, but seriously, folk, what is so wrong with this? Don't want to work? let your parents pick up the tab, break the law? pay serious consequences, gaol time, fines and if you can't pay the fine, community service or more prison...no, I'm not a Tory. My oldest son learned the hard way through speeding, parking and dui tickets that it's just not worth it and to fly straight. Though he never got into serious trouble, his 'nobody can tell me what to do' attitude was his problem.
'E got better' (Monty Python - Holy Grail), thank God!
24

mr angry,

ayrshire 27/05/2008 07:57:41
Its an excellent idea, nobody deserves anything for free. Get them out their beds and if they do not like it they can look for a real job or accept the consequences. Why should we pay lazy gits money to lie in their bed while we have foreign people flooding in to do the jobs these people are not interested in. No work no dole, there is plenty needing done in this country, at worst they can pick up the empty cans and McDonalds wrappers they dropped the night before.
SNP should adopt this as policy immediately.
25

Green booger,

27/05/2008 08:10:16
They should be sent to military camps where they would undergo basic training, including shooting and 30 yomps with 100 lb rucksacks.
26

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 27/05/2008 08:17:16
Once again, I seem to have stumbled accidentally into the Daily Mail website, inhabited by idiots who clearly don't have the first idea of the reality of life for benefit claimants in this country. It makes me ashamed to be Scottish, which used to mean coming from a more caring country that still believed in social justice rather than the cold, selfish, Thatcherite place where I currently live.

Most of these people are trapped by an insane Catch-22 system that doesn't pay enough benefits to survive on (it is openly admitted by the government that Housing Benefit, for example, fails to meet the actual housing costs of over 80% of claimants, which is why they're fiddling with it by introducing the new Local Housing Allowance), yet PENALISES them when they find work.

The tax credit system which was supposed to fix this is a hideous mess of terrifying bureaucracy, with a commonplace tendency to overpay, then suddenly demand the return of thousands of pounds from people who are already in debt just trying to survive. Huge swathes of the unemployed or low-paid aren't eligible for tax credits anyway, because of senseless arbitrary rules about eligibility. (Forget it if you're childless, for a start.)

Once you fall into poverty, the government savagely closes off all routes of escape. The greatest obscenity of our society is the "£5 rule", whereby if you're unemployed and find some work, but not enough to cover all your living expenses, all of your earnings except for £5 are taken out of your benefits, leaving you typically WORSE off (since most people incur expenses from work, such as getting a bus there and back, which costs at least £5 a week). It's not that people don't want to work - but faced with working 40 hours a week for a non-survivable income, or staying at home and at least starving to death in relative comfort, what would YOU choose?

27

tommy,

27/05/2008 08:23:59
quote "intensive work-related activity." Unquote

Just wait until you see the claims for injury due to sleep deprivation,inadequate training,loss of self esteem,mental shock and the infringement of their human rights

28

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 27/05/2008 08:27:03
(cont'd)

The truly sick thing, of course, is that the solution to this problem is SO easy and SO simple and SO obvious, and involves neither the savage persecution of the already-miserable, nor a single penny of extra expense to the taxpayer.

All that's needed is to establish, when someone signs on and is supplying all their financial circumstances anyway, what that person needs as a reasonable survival income (ie covering ALL the rent and bills and food, but no fags or Sky TV), and then to allow them to earn money up to that level (or slightly above) without snatching it back out of their benefits. In such a way you create a genuine incentive to work, and working breeds more work, getting people out of the habit of dependency.

It's not a perfect solution - people who genuinely can't find work would still struggle to survive - but the solutions we really need (rent controls, wage settlements that keep pace with the real cost of living and so on) are politically unviable due to people like the idiots inhabiting much of this thread.

It would, however, be a huge and practical improvement for a good 80% of the people currently caught in the poverty trap, and certainly a lot better than turning the poor into unpaid slaves of the Mail-reading community. It'd save money on the unimaginable current bureaucracy of the Department for Work and Pensions, make people want to work by actually making it worth their while, generate economic benefit (jobs are being done, wages earned, tax paid, money spent in the economy) and avoid the ghettoisation of the poor and attendant social unrest all these vicious authoritarian policies will cause.

Do we really want to go back to the Thatcher years? Or do we want a fairer, happier, society where everyone who can do so makes a real contribution? If it's the latter, stop demanding that the poor be hanged and flogged and actually try helping them instead.
29

Boy Wonder,

27/05/2008 08:27:37
The Tories have always advocated extreme solutions.

Be warned about this lot. They have not really changed. They never will.
30

Graeme Thomson,

Glasgow 27/05/2008 08:42:51
There are more than four million people unemployed in the UK. Labour switched a vast number from signing on the dole and put them on Incapacity Benefit. This masked the true numbers. I reckon the true unemployment rate in the UK is more than 10 per cent. People on Incapacity Benefit in particular have no incentive to uproot to the big cities to take a crappy job on minimum wage while foreign migrants who do not receive benefits do.

This all reminds me of Norman Tebitt's "get on your bike" mantra but the reality is there are not four million unfilled vacancies out there in the job market – even at £5 an hour.

The people at the bottom of the heap in our society are easy scapegoats - they are "lazy benefit scroungers" etc. Yes, they get a free ride but it is not exactly a trip in a Ferrari – more like an uncomfortable journey on an overcrowded bus with no final destination and no hope of getting off. Not exactly the life of Riley.
31

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 27/05/2008 08:45:06
#30 Labour have been in power for a decade and have been no better, creating the Hellish system we have today. The two parties differ from each other only in the WAYS they want to persecute the poor, the aim is the same because that's how Middle England sees the unemployed and low-paid - as lazy subhuman scum who don't deserve to be able to survive - and current UK politics is based entirely around pandering to that Middle England minority.

The previous poster's invocation of the Nazis wasn't as inappropriate as such things usually are, because it's a genuine parallel in attitudes - the poor or weak are seen as parasites on the healthy body of society, "life unworthy of life". We know where this attitude ends up leading, but follow it anyway in case the alternative is 1p on income tax.
32

,

27/05/2008 08:45:57
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33

ddmc,

27/05/2008 08:51:34
no one should be allowed to claim unemployment benefit for more than 3 years tops.

as for Purcell's comment about 'only 6000' claiming after 12 months, this is because the rest of them have been to the doctor to get sick benefits, plus all the jakies are classed as 'to sick to work'.

#11 what you fail to mention about the scottish workforce is that nearly half work for either local authority, scottish govt or a related quango, this is not a healthy state of affairs for any nation.
34

thinking,

Scotland 27/05/2008 08:58:31
Where a person lives does not matter. If they are able to work but do not then they are a drain on the finances of those who do work. There is no such thing as Government money to pay the work shy. It is all taxpayers' money.
Sadly, there are a lot of second and third generation families who have never worked and look on it as a right that the taxpayer should support them.
35

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 27/05/2008 09:03:33
#34 and #35

...and after a brief interlude of decency, we're back with the ill-informed nasty cretin audience. Hello!
36

Bigwull,

edinburgh 27/05/2008 09:34:38
Ah the return of workhouses, a good way for the tories to undermine the minimum wage, its true a Leopard can't change its spots, disgraceful still the nasty party
37 £100 per day I very much doubt it maybe per week, I think the Tax avoidance brigade should be screened as well as the benefit claiments, also why is it when you earn more than £770 per week you only pay 1% national insurance on the earnings above that, surely you should pay your fair share?
37

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 27/05/2008 09:57:50
#37 "Once a doctor felt there were healthy enough to work and would not provide them with the necessary sick note, they were straight in the Job Centre looking for work."

As opposed to doing what? Dying in a gutter?
38

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 27/05/2008 09:58:14
Great idea. Easy to see that the softies would like to feather-bed the idle as usual missing completely the point that it is you and I dear taxpayers who are funding this "lifestyle". And while we're at it, the incapacity fraud needs to be clamped down on hard so that the shiftless are forced to go and get a job. Amazing how resourceful people can be when they realise that there is no parachute for them unless they make some effort. This is not a proposal for concentration camps by Nazis as a lot of posters seem to identify the Tories with. It's just common sense. People who are truly deserving of our resources such as the old and infirm should have these channeled to them. The alternative is that PC brigade would like to starve the deserving in favour of the idle. Now how's that for morality?
39

Nikostratos,

27/05/2008 10:08:06
Why not bring back the 'Stocks' one in every town and we could throw rotten veggies at em on a Saturday morning great day out for all the family.

cor look at im dad he aint gorra job....splat!


Ah! the good old torys completely fecking nuts
40

Nikostratos,

27/05/2008 10:16:23
left right left right left right.....stick your chest out boy...dont you wanna get a job.....and now you are gonna have proper hair cut short back sides for you me lad..make your mother proud.......

#42

"People who are truly People who are truly deserving of our resources of our resources"


What the "deserving poor" is this for real.


Oh I know what i done i went and changed date for what Scotsman to read and picked one from 25 years ago by mistake.
41

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/05/2008 10:19:04
Call me cynical, if you will.

We haven't seen anything yet. Neither the Tories nor NuLab has the bottle, yet, to introduce full-blooded Conscription. However, BOTH their "welfare to Work" policies are the vanguard for this.

It has nothing to do with encouraging people into work, but has everything to do with creating a climate in which the Armed Services are built up again, to the levels of the Imperial past.

The real con of this deception is, a Conscript Army is paid "The Queen's Shilling", not the going rate for the job.

"Arbeit macht Frei!!!". Remember the '30s
42

Nikostratos,

27/05/2008 10:25:53
Right then lads today we are having a lecture from an ex S.A.S officer on how to surround and then infiltrate a place of employment. In order to take a secure position with a full pension.

Using only a banana,torch, copy of the daily mail and piece of string

43

Toast,

27/05/2008 10:28:05
Why stop at under 21's,why shouldn't everybody who is capable do some sort of work in exchange for their benefit,even if it is just cutting an elderly couples grass.
44

JayJay,

Right here 27/05/2008 10:30:32
Rev Campbell
I am with you up to a point. We have a bizarre benefits and tax credit system that appears to exist to feather bed a giant number of public sector workers to do absolutely nothing meaningful. How can it be sensible to imagine a system whereby you work, get taxed, then fill out a vast, confusing form to get tax back in a "credit"? To think Broon is proud of this system! Similarly we appear to have a government that creates a tax system that favours single parents then bemoans the breakdown of the family! I wish you couldn't make such stuff up but they did!
Where I differ from you is in one respect. Many young people (and I used to man recruitment stalls for a big company) have a ludicrous notion of their "get out of bed money". We would see teenager after teenager reel off figures like £25k as a starting salary commesurate with their negligible skills and zero track record. The said teenager would "pwah" in disgust at the sort of money on offer for a decent apprenticeship. Seems to me that yet another triumph the government and our celeb fascinated culture has created is a generation of kids who do not feel any particular need to work hard and progress up the ladder.
A complex issue for sure, but a good start would be to make it worth people's while to work. Is that such a tricky concept for the twits that run the country?
45

Nikostratos,

27/05/2008 10:50:29
Right then lads today is your passing out parade at 'Boot Camp'and each one of you will be presented with a nice new shiny Bike with a bell to tinkle.

Because as Norman Tebbit once said

"I grew up in the '30s with an unemployed father. He didn't riot. He got on his bike and looked for work, and he kept looking 'til he found it."

And if you keep that to the forefront of your mind lads then you will also one day find that job.
46

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 11:02:28
The reaction of many of the posts has been rather strange. Somebody has used the phrase the phrase "boot camp" and now so many are ridiculing the proposal with military metaphors. Whose is the phrase boot camp? The policy mentions "work-related activity".

If young people are claiming benefits what is wrong with getting them to do some work rather than hanging around dong nothing?
47

hibbyspurs,

27/05/2008 11:08:37
Ahhhh good too see all the LAbour "luvvies" have jumped on this and are screaming "tory facists"....

Come into the real world and look at who your so called "middle England minority" actually consists of. Far from being just middle England there are millions of people in Englsn, Wales & yes Scotland who work hard for a reasonable wage but find themselves hopelessly taxed on it to support millions of other benifit claimints. Of course there are many many people out of work who would love to work to provide a better life for their families but you can not deny that there is also a culture of people who are quite happy to live rent free in a council house, get child benifit, incapcity benifit, carers allowance and on and on and on, these are the people honest hard working peole are sick of draining money off the state which then has to be put back by the working tax payer.

Why are we sick of it?
ohhh lets have a look....... Fuel at record highs through taxation, the removal of the 10p tax band which really hurts the lowest paid, food prices rising, mortage costs rising, energy bills soaring, new car tax levys again which will hurt the lower/ medium paid....

So why are we sick of supporting these people? We put in but get f&&k all back apart from kid on tax benifits and bluster off our government.... We want our tax money to pay for our public services, we want a bit of relief in times such as this from our tax burden so we can pay OUR OWN bills, we get nothing....

Why are we mad? Why do we want people like this to pay their way? Are you mad?

LABOUR ISNT WORKING....

But of course I'm a facist for daring to speak up for the silent majority!!
48

Nikostratos,

27/05/2008 11:10:22
You know what make me laugh ole Alex and the snp Drones actually believe if a Conservative Government is elected at Westminster. Many Scots will so appalled with their right wing uncaring policies. They will flood over to the Independence movement... and what make laugh even longer and louder is with an attitude and beliefs shown in proposals such as this.............Alex's is going to proved right
49

happy english,

London 27/05/2008 11:11:01
If they do that will mean Glasgow will be empty, and if David Cameron has his way most of Scotland as well.
50

Care Bear,

27/05/2008 11:19:22
I skim read the headline. Thought it said tories to send jobies to boot camp.

Same thing really.
51

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 11:23:03
"the party is to unveil plans to send under-21s who have been unemployed for three months on intensive work-related activity."

IE, NOT boot camp.

For those who do not know, a boot camp is a slang term for military new entry, basic training establishments in the United States.

In effect, what the Tories are aiming to do is to pick up the pieces from the labour policy of trying to send everyone to university where they gain degrees that are not worth the paper they are written on---at the same time NOT learning how to do anything in particular in life.

"Intensive work-related activity" would in all likelihood include such activities as joinery, plumbing and brick-laying. In other words it will encompass the skills that most of the kids SHOULD have been learning rather than wasting their time for the first few years of their working life.
52

,

27/05/2008 11:23:31
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53

Graeme Thomson,

27/05/2008 11:29:06
Now Now No.60 are you not perhaps mixing these people up with the Jews.

Nice to see Nazism is alive and kicking.

Oh, and bye the way, it is "Their parents, not There parents" – you should really think about getting an education or you may find yourself classified as a member of the underclass and shipped off to the boot camp.
54

Care Bear,

27/05/2008 11:32:33
63

I don't get a penny from the state so I will return nothing to the state.

Other than eye-watering indirect taxes, and direct taxes on the money I earn to pay my indirect taxes.

Why must I be a fascist? We spend four times the amount we do on military on wellfare. It is a demonstrable and proven fact that benefit fraud has soared under new Labour.

Please justify to me why sctounging street criminals and their toothless morbidly obese and stupid parents need bottles of whisky from the public purse?
55

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 11:33:54
52/54/57 Methalions
The problem we seem to face here is the typical one of using a convenient sound-bite to ridicule or oppose a policy rather than opposing it through suitable debate and argument. It appears that the Tories are proposing a type of "work for welfare" programme and that they believe young, unemployed people on benefits should do some "work related activity" rather then hang around or lie in bed. They presumably feel that this would be better for the country and better for the young people as it gets them into the routine and self-discipline of getting up and going to work and thus helps them to cope if and when they do get a job.

Work for welfare schemes are used in many countries and if presented in the manner I have described many may well think it s a good idea. However sections of the media and opponents, rather than disussing the issue on its merits or lack of them, merely invent a sound-bite to ridicule the policy and portray it as something that was never intended. The phrase "boot camp" is introduced to give the impression of a military type regime operating thus implying that the Tories are surrendering to the hang em, flog em brigade.

Unfortunately this is what tends to pass for political debate at present.
56

Care Bear,

27/05/2008 11:34:00
What we need is food stamps like in the USA.

Food, shelter, healthcare, clothing, education.

Everything else must be earned in these scumbags lives, maybe if we are feeling generous we can treat them like the middleclass children and loan them the money they need with a duty to pay it back when they are earning more than 15k.
57

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27/05/2008 11:34:55
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58

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27/05/2008 11:42:26
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27/05/2008 11:42:54
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60

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 27/05/2008 12:02:41
#62 My point is, if someone gets kicked off Incapacity Benefit, rightly OR wrongly, what the heck ELSE would you expect them to do other than look for work (even if they weren't really capable of doing any)? So them turning up at the Job Centre quite obviously doesn't prove, as you seem to believe it does, that they were malingering, just that they have no choice unless they want to die on the street.

Are some people abusing the benefits system? Of course they are. Some people always will. But what ignorant, nasty Mail-reader types don't grasp (because they don't have the first idea of the reality of what they're talking about) is that life on benefits in the UK today is an absolute misery that nobody in their right mind would seek to prolong if they had any alternative. The current system does NOT provide that alternative - indeed, it absolutely discourages the unemployed from finding work by punishing them when they do.
61

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 27/05/2008 12:04:47
#64 "It is a demonstrable and proven fact that benefit fraud has soared under new Labour."

Because benefits have fallen in real terms to such pitiful levels that it's simply not possible to stay alive on them for a great many people. Not that you care - you're such an unpleasant piece of work that you probably wish the poor dead anyway.
62

,

27/05/2008 12:08:37
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63

kimba,

27/05/2008 12:09:29
excellent idea,or even a year in the armed forces.
64

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 12:10:17
An excellent idea, this is an odd feeling for me: Rational suggestions from Westminster, could it be?
This is exactly the sort of idea that has been needed, if they're going to sit at home damn it, make them work, even meaningless tasks like cracking rocks.
The policy should be designed to target those living deep in the housing schemes!
Bravo Tories, your election success is inevitable.
65

Graeme Thomson,

27/05/2008 12:12:30
No 60. Please take a look at the language of hate that you use and let me replace a few words and take you back to Germany in the 1930s.

"These lazy Jews disgust me. Their parents were scrounging scumbags and the only education they gave their offspring was how to screw the German people."

"These Jews are thieving stupid criminal turds and my only gripe is that we live in an age where we have to pretend it's not their own doing, that they aren't lazy scrounging street princes who think that the German people are duty bound to feed and cloth them."

You really would have made Hitler blush.

Your hatred is really unsettling. You need to take a good look at yourself.
66

Graeme Thomson,

27/05/2008 12:13:53
If the boot camps in the East don't work then we always have the final solution
67

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27/05/2008 12:17:57
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68

scunnin,

Germany 27/05/2008 12:21:39
Introduce what they have in Germany, you get 60% of your last wage for the 1st year, then after that get very little, but you only get unemployment money if you have worked 3 out of 5 years in the EU. For those complaining about the Poles going to UK then also receiving unemployment money. I live in Germany and at times had to request unemployment money for a few months.

Of course I worked in the country 1st so I earned the chance to receive unemployment money. The boot camps are a good idea, or why not re-introduce work experience back into schools because I know when i left University it took me 4-5 years to get into the field I wanted to get into or introduce a process where companies get juniors for a year or two or an apprenticeship again. The apprenticeship worked before, why not now?
69

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 12:21:39
#75
You are the perfect example of a liberal imbecile...
70

Graeme Thomson,

27/05/2008 12:25:36
No77.

"I majored in history so I know these things"

You are clearly from North America. I studied at University in the States and the education system is pretty poor. Majoring in History at an American University is no great claim to fame and certainly does not make you any sort of expert. In fact your statement "I majored in history so I know these things." shows you up to be an intellectual pygmy. Anyone who studies anything knows that the more you know the more you realise there is to know not that they "know it all".

Oh, and I am not a liberal - I am a socialist. Perhaps you should have majored in politics and you would then be able to differentiate between the major political theologies that predominate in Western Europe.


71

scunnin,

Germany 27/05/2008 12:26:09
its impressive you have to say Stu how it went from boot camps to Hitler with one swift thought. Very incoherent but very uhm no just incoherent!!
72

Graeme Thomson,

27/05/2008 12:29:08
No 79.

Again I am not a liberal so am not a perfect example of a liberal imbecile.

You too should try reading about the rudiments of political philosophy.

As for being an imbecile in general – I think not. And name calling may go down well in the playground but this site is mainly used by adults.

73

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 12:30:10
#81
Well, you know these liberals: Any kind of policy that has a remote chance of working must be linked to Nazism as quickly as possible in order to pour scorn upon it.
Unfortunately, individuals with Graeme's bizzare outlook on the world are those that predominate our Parliaments....
74

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 12:32:59
#82
Well Graeme, to quote Wendy: "Bring it on"!

Tell me, why are you against this policy, and reasons please not vague comparisons with left wing dictatoriships....
75

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27/05/2008 12:38:25
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76

Sioux Man Chu,

27/05/2008 13:00:39
Rev. Campbell - you are so far up your own pious, self righteous 'what would Jesus do' backside you're unreal. I would be quite happy to see the fit, healthy, unemployed in question put on a treadmill for 7 and 1/2 hours a day in order to feed the national grid.
77

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27/05/2008 13:12:13
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78

Mercian,

UK 27/05/2008 13:17:37
#88

"As to the arguments that there is no jobs for them to do, stop all immigration and that includes the EU..."

Yes, then we would have British jobs for British workers, but no sane politician would say this - Oh, hang on, didn't our great leader mutter something similar...
79

Royalty,

Zandvoort 27/05/2008 13:34:02
While this is obviously a great idea & long overdue,
there are many parent who should also be sent to boot camp.

A short sharp shock would do them no harm.

The sooner this is implemented the better.
80

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

27/05/2008 13:35:37
The danger with this kind of policy is that it tars all claimants as being wastrels and scroungers. It is a policy deliberately intended to exploit the worst in individuals. it is an appeal tio the worst side of human nature.
81

,

27/05/2008 13:39:18
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82

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 27/05/2008 13:46:35
I thought that times they were achanging but the right wing nationalist views have returned. Shameful.
83

roughrider,

Glasgow 27/05/2008 13:49:26
94 The Federalist.
Well said, these erses want total control over people by bullying and dependency hand outs .If the gvmt were serious it would help businesses by lowering taxes and giving incentives to business willing to expand and progress.Instead they tax the sh*t out of them.
In deprived areas created under labour over the last 50 years people are trapped.No amount of gvmt bullying
will create any jobs in these areas. So the plan by the tories is fcked.
84

Paula,

27/05/2008 13:58:41
Everyone is always so eager to stick the boot into single mums on benefits but not young people who have just left school. Interesting insight into society.

I don't see what is wrong with this.

I know for fact there are a lot of parents who encourage their children to remain on benefits just like they have. These children are allowed to bunk off school, they are not given any hope or any desire to want something different, to actually do something with their lives. They are raised by people who don't want to learn and don't want them to learn either.

This could offer them a way out and could show them that they are capable of doing a job they want. Out of the control of their parents.
85

BrianHill,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 14:02:20
Delighted to see the 'vote winning' spirit of Maggie Thacher is alive and well among todays more 'enlightened' Tories.

Keep it up chaps, just another nail in the Unionist coffin.
86

roughrider,

27/05/2008 14:09:07
98 Paula, you state. "I know for fact there are a lot of parents who encourage their children to remain on benefits just like they have. These children are allowed to bunk off school,".
Since when did children at school get benefits, fact they dont.
YOUR ABOVE STATMENT MAKES A MOCKERY OF YOUR WEE RANT.
87

Royalty,

Zandvoort 27/05/2008 14:15:40
Labour "tough on crime - tough on the causes of crime".

It would be so easy to laugh at Labours rediculous statement.

Given the number of young people being murdered across the UK this is a deadly serious issue.

At least the Conservative Party are taking a stance.

It might not go far enough for some of us but its a start.
88

Paula,

27/05/2008 14:45:40
101 did I say the children were at school you numpty? The "bunk off school" was an example of bad parenting that would lead to the child leaving school having had a poor education and no idea of routine. At which point the child would then go on benefits.

But don't let facts stop you having a wee turn if it makes you feel a bit better about yourself.
89

ddmc,

27/05/2008 14:49:08
#78 i agree if you don't pay in , dont expect to pay out much.

#36 Rev, join the real world, sickness benefit claiments has risen dramatically, GP's are happy to sign anything to get you out the consultation room, I know several people who get sickness benefit for imaginary issues that dont stop them working on the side.

Around 50% of scotlands workforce is employed directly or indirectly by the state.

So which part of my post is ill-informed ? but as i'm not needy or poor I'm a nasty cretin, well I'm glad i dont have to rely on christians like yourself.
90

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 14:51:53
I've got a better idea. Send all tories to re-education camps to let them see the error of their greedy, selfish, arrogant, ways.
91

hibbyspurs,

27/05/2008 15:47:04
#100

How apt that you chose to use lines from a film about drug addicts who live off the state, rob, beg & do all sorts of other anti social things to make a comment in a story about getting people off of benifits...

How even more apt that you choose this way to promote the SNP....
92

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 27/05/2008 15:52:30
#104 "join the real world, sickness benefit claiments has risen dramatically... I know several people who get sickness benefit for imaginary issues that dont stop them working on the side."

Yes, I'm well aware of that, you numpty. The REASON is that the government have actively pursued policies by which claimants are effectively forced onto Incapacity Benefit as the only way they can survive.

The reason for this is that - in a rich, bitter irony - when you're on Incapacity Benefit you're ALLOWED to work. You can LEGALLY earn up to around £300 or so (£73 or £83 a week, I forget which) while still claiming IB, compared to the miserly £20 you're allowed to earn while getting Job Seeker's Allowance.

Yes, you heard that right - if benefits don't cover your living expenses and you want to work to earn some money to make up the difference, the only way to do it legally is to be diagnosed as TOO SICK TO WORK. If you're fit to work, you're not allowed to. If you're too ill, then it's fine. Sound sane? Then you're probably a New Labour minister.

This is why understanding, caring doctors often sign people off - the impossibility of trying to survive as a JSA claimant is such that it genuinely causes them severe stress. The doctor isn't lying, or being fooled, he's recognising a genuinely life-threatening situation, namely not being able to afford to eat.

The government created this "loophole" so that people would go onto IB and keep the headline unemployment figures low (along with the great New Deal swindle, which is designed for the same purpose with regard to the long-term figures). Why else do you think they don't close it?

For the love of Christ, do some research before you shoot your ignorant mouths off next time.
93

Calum Crubag,

27/05/2008 15:54:19
Great, now, get some real jobs for the Royal family. And, regarding benefit money, how about cutting allowances to MPs?
94

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 27/05/2008 15:59:21
For Rev S Campbell and Graeme Thomson. I wonder how many of the champions of the poor have ever been really poor or lived in a slum council estate. I did for most of my childhood and I learned many valuable lessons as well as how to spot a sponger. I regularly notice how many champions of the poor are good people with very little experience of the circumstances they debate. They refuse to acknowledge how many spongers we actually have in Scotland. Not everyone is needlessly poor.

On my estate I had some hard workers, tradesmen, shop workers but I also had junkies, dealers, muggers, house breakers, and a whole host of other jakies who felt so smart that they did not have to work while they played the system claiming for everything.

I totally support the idea of providing for those who fall on hard times. I do not agree with providing for those who rest for 40 years then go into a nursing homes.

We have alot of tasks that require to be done in the community that the council organise. We should provide all young fit men and women these tasks to be done. There is nothing like excercise to remove depression and sadness. Get them out in the fresh air, sweeping the streets, picking up litter, painting walls, communal gardening. Much in the same way as community service but more positive.

At least then they are giving something back and getting into a work routine. If they were tired they would not be up all night robbing and getting wasted.

Then the people unable to work would move onto a long term solution while those who required to work could be conditioned at the very least to getting up in the morning, doing work, having breaks, having lunch, going home like the rest of us.

If they do not want to contribute to society why should society contribute to them.

A much better motivator for them to find a decent job if they are already doing the work for less. Rather than the option of sitting at friends house, drunk, smoking dope playing PS3. Idle mi
95

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 27/05/2008 16:12:27
#109 To answer your questions, yes, I've done both of those things. I had a period on benefits not so long ago, and I lived on a poor council estate for many years. But this debate isn't about facts, it's about ideology.

You and those like you would cast 10 genuine