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European human rights laws may be torn up under Tory government

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Published Date: 16 May 2009
THE Conservative Party has set up a commission to investigate whether the European Convention of Human Rights can be scrapped and replaced with a British alternative.
Paul McBride QC and former lord advocate Peter Fraser are part of a team set up by Tory leader David Cameron to consider the change.

The group has been tasked with creating a British Bill of Rights to apply in the English and Scottish legal syst
ems and replace current legislation.

It follows concerns that the European Convention is having a different impact to the one intended when it was incorporated into UK law in 1999.

Mr McBride and Lord Fraser addressed the Scottish Tories' spring conference in Perth yesterday, and gave contrasting views of what might happen under a Cameron government.

Mr McBride was applauded when he declared the Human Rights Act was "discredited" and he raised concerns the act was helping criminals, not victims.

And he said it was a disgrace that people who committed serious crimes, such as attacking somebody with a knife, causing their permanent disfigurement, might be out on the streets after only four months of a four-year sentence.

Later, the man expected to be rewarded for switching his support from Labour to the Tories with a key role in any new administration, told The Scotsman he was confident that the commission could come up with an alternative that would fit Britain's needs.

"There are problems with what we have at the moment," said Mr McBride. "It is a one-size-fits-all for Europe, not one which takes into consideration Britain's history and needs."

But the attack on the Human Rights Act by Mr McBride and others at the conference met with Lord Fraser's disapproval at a fringe meeting. "I was disappointed to hear people say we need to get rid of it – and the language that was used. It is absolutely necessary," he said.

He thought it would be almost impossible to have a British Bill of Rights, because of the different legal systems in England and Scotland. "For example, in England there is an automatic right to jury trial but not in Scotland," he said. "The problem is that a British Bill of Rights would have to be too long and complicated to be practical."

He expected that the review's conclusion would be that the European Convention should stay.

But Gordon Downie, a constitutional expert from Edinburgh law firm Shepherd and Wedderburn, disagreed.

He said that it would be possible to have a simple document that talked of general rights in "high law" rather than specifics.

"It is likely that it would be applied differently in England and Scotland," he said. "It is possible they may come up with a regional version for England. However, Westminster can do this because human rights legislation is reserved, even though some of its applications are devolved.

"It does not have to be too specific, these documents never are. They need to be simple."

But he warned, as with the current act, it might be applied by judges with unintended consequences and "there may be questions about the standing of such a document in law".

Campaigning father of knife attack victim backs tougher jail terms

A MAN who has led a campaign to stop the scourge of knife crime in Scotland yesterday came out in support of Conservative proposal for tougher prison sentences.

John Muir, from Greenock, who launched the campaign after his son Damian was murdered in 2007, told the Tories he was "delighted" with their plan to introduce minimum two-year sentences for those carrying knives.

He believes his son would not have died if tougher sentences had been in place for knife crime. The man who killed his son was out on bail waiting to be tried for another crime involving a knife.

Mr Muir demanded other parties get behind the Tory plan and, in an impassioned speech to the Scottish Conservative conference in Perth, shouted: "Mr MacAskill are you listening?"

He said he had been angered by the SNP's reluctance to introduce mandatory prison sentences and the refusal of justice secretary Kenny MacAskill to attend a knife conference in Holyrood.

Labour has also put forward proposals that would mean mandatory prison sentences for those caught carrying a knife.





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1

,

16/05/2009 00:14:18
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2

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 00:19:11

You can not just 'tear-up' the European human rights laws, if one does so, I will take them to the, European Court of Human Rights!

3

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 00:29:13
We don't have a written constitution in either country, so how can you just magic up a ''British'' bill of rights? I don't want to have a set of vaguely specified rights bestowed upon me by the likes of Paul McBride. I agree with Lord Fraser that at the moment The European Convention is necessary - for all it's faults. The time to review it's application is when we are independent and can write our own bill of rights. However, I cannot imagine it will be incompatible with the European one. We are, after all, Europeans.
4

danbob,

16/05/2009 00:48:12
Pure electioneering. There is no British bill of rights to fall back on.
5

ultravires,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 00:51:43
yep and another reason not to vote Tory !

Who believes expenses fiddlers anyway ?
They'll be tearing up the media next so they can go back to claiming for moss removal and sunbeds.
6

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 16/05/2009 00:59:41
Is this the true reason that McBride skipped the Labour Party - or rather publicly said that he had, even although he wasn't a member. Nothing like publicity to increase your profile, and of course join the perty that's going to give you a nice job.
7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 01:09:45

"raised concerns the act was helping criminals, not victims"

Who's "concerns"?, certainly not all of the ones we have read about, to get Final Justice!, maybe we are no-longer, going to be allowed this necessity, it is not a privilege'!
The Tory's are coming across as quite 'Mad', and I will not be voting for them!

8

ultravires,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 01:14:47
7

Rumour has it he was going to switch to anyone who offered him a job - I guess the Tories were the only ones who were desperate enough to take him on after Labour & others cold shouldered him.
9

,

16/05/2009 01:21:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
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10

Brianwci,

16/05/2009 02:00:28
#1 Vital Spark. Spot on VS. For years I've marvelled at how the Brit Nats can argue against being in Europe on the one hand yet slam us down for using the same arguments to get out of the British Union.

Stronger together weaker apart my wee botty.

Question is, why is England so desperate to keep us in their union? Nothing to do with them embarking on yet another hugely expensive, London centric event and needing our Oil revenues to pay for it I suppose????

Crossrail....£16 Billion pounds worth of railways including another enormously expensive underground rail link.

The more we hear of the next Tory Government plans for Scotland the better. Should focus voter attention wonderfully as they pile into the Referendum polling booths.
11

Hugo of Garven,

16/05/2009 02:33:55
#1 The Vital Spark
This is completely different!

You obviously do not understand the big picture!

In this case Londonopolis is the smaller partner.

Everyone is out of step except our Cecil.

Of course the Brit Nats are not being hypocritical. Shame on you for suggesting such a thing.
12

2Right,

On Location 16/05/2009 02:48:09
McBride has conned the Tories, he was never a member of Labour.

We cannot use our European Human Rights in Scots courts anyway so why have them ?
13

2Right,

On Location 16/05/2009 02:49:57
I hear a FOI on his legal aid bills is looming.

Can they still demand money while legal aid is paid ?
14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 02:52:05

I have studied the Laws of the "European human rights"
My wife works in childcare, and this subject was set for exam level, on more than one occasion, Yes! even our Children are covered in the,...
..."European Courts of Human Rights"

This covers the less advantaged Children, and the Children with disability's,

It is of 'REDICULOUIS-NONSENSE'!, a Tory Government, would try to 'Shred-Up' the system in Place, that Protects All!


15

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 02:54:47


They must be 'Smoking', something I do not Know about!


16

The Vital Spark,

16/05/2009 03:01:17
12 Hugo of Garven

You are indeed correct shame on me for thinking such thing :) However I wonder if the average Brit Nat
can see any hypocrisy in the following. Here is
a statement of the main purpose of the UKIP :

"The UK Independence Party is committed to withdrawing Britain from the European Union. As the debate on the Lisbon Treaty has now made clear, the EU agenda is complete political union, with all the main functions of national government taken over by the bureaucratic institutions of Brussels. UKIP believes that this is not only bad for Britain's economy and prosperity, but it is an alien system of government that will ultimately prove to be totally unacceptable to the British people."

Now let's look at this from a Scottish perspective

"The Scottish Independence Party is committed to withdrawing Scotland from the British Union. As the debate on the Act of Union has now made clear, the British agenda is complete political union, with all the main functions of national government taken over by the bureaucratic institutions of London. SNP believes that this is not only bad for Scotland's economy and prosperity, but it is an alien system of government that will ultimately prove to be totally unacceptable to the Scottish people."

I wonder if the common or garden Brit Nat can see
any similarities here ?
17

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 03:02:45



A Highly Respected and Honoured System of Law, in Place, that Works!

Has one totally 'Of-Their-Head' to want to replace it?

(NO Disrespect but,..'Really!)



18

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 03:36:53


A Highly Respected and Honoured System of Law, in Place, that Works!

Has one gone, totally 'Of-Their-Head' to want to replace it?

(NO Disrespect but,..'Really!)


19

Murray in Canada,

Salt Spring Island 16/05/2009 03:42:40
All right, but what about the anomalies and ridiculous [not to say tragic] results of applying EU law and rights wholesale, meaning unsuitable sentences and such ridiculous outcomes as paying jailbirds damages for having the effrontery to ask them to swill out, or whatever you call it. The legislation needs to be revisited, to say the least; and it is to be hoped that the SNP pay attention.
20

W Smith,

Middle East 16/05/2009 03:53:22
The Tories have got it right on this.

The human rights lawyers were conspicious by their absence when it comes to the Gurkhas (as was the SNP) but they come out of the wood work when its muslims chanting anti-British slogans and calling our soldiers terrorists.

Two Tottenham supporters have just been fined for calling Sol Campbell names while the muslims who demonstrated with placards that read "Behead Those Who Insult Islam" didn't get charged.

Time to rip up the human rights laws that exist only to protect criminals, anarchists and terrorists.

Of course the left wing extremists from the 79 Group who are now running Scotland now don't agree.

That is to be expected.
21

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 16/05/2009 06:14:42
The schizophrenic policy of those who wish to leave one union to consolidate with an even larger and less representative one is incomprehensible.
22

,

16/05/2009 06:14:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
23

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 16/05/2009 07:15:20
"The SNP's policy that last I looked (sic) was independence within the EU, no-one has said anything about leaving it."
See what I mean!
24

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 07:42:45
20 That anomoly (slopping out) has been amended, and didn't need to arise in the first place. It's not reason to throw away the rights guaranteed us by the European convention over a load of Daily Mail stories which are mainly nonsense and only people like W Smith the resident swivel eyed right wing extremist believe anyway.

24 The unions are not the same Mercutio. They are entirely different and so is our participation in them.
25

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/05/2009 07:56:25
Paul McBride epitomises all that is wrong with the "British" Political System.

An unrepentant sponger who has always made his living on the perifery of politics, has suddenly "seen the light" as his political masters fortunes flounder.

Make no mistake, he is no Saul on the road to Damascus, just a Labour rat fleeing a sinking ship.

Is this really the kind of person we want put in charge of drawing up Human Rights legislation?

Many criticize the fact that EU legislation has any role to play in the UK, but there is much less of this in Scotland than there is in England,but they should remember that the venality of our political classes has only come to light because Parliament was forced by EU legislation to be more transparent.

To those who wish to score points on prisoners being paid to "slop out", maybe in a country as rich as the UK which can afford to keep its Politicians in such glamorous style,(glittery seats and in some cases 2) we can also keep our prisons to standards that include a toilet rather than an old rusty bucket.You don't have to pay them money, just meet minimum standards that the rest of the civilized world does.

Personally I would rather see Scotland keep the EU Human Rights legislation and get rid of that really corrupt layer of Government, the UK.

26

Media at One,

16/05/2009 08:43:05
The Human Rights bill has been one of the most dangerous political introdutions of all time. So much so that a murderer could rape, torture, rape again, torture, put a victim through the most appalling and utterly dreadful pain, rape them again, slit their throats and then murder another two people in the same night, and when arrested and convicted, will receive protection from the government, be permitted to watch satellite television because his human rights demand it, be allowed visitation rights because his human rights demand it, be allowed the luxury of a warm shower and three quality meals a day because his human rights demand it - So perhaps a new bill that says; once you murder and rape, you lose your human rights and fall under the banner of "convict rights" and those rights will NOT be as five star luxurious as they have in the past.
27

Auld-Yin,

16/05/2009 08:53:09
Why is it that victims seem to have no 'Human Rights' yet those that do the crime are protected to the hilt?

Human rights are just that - a right, but we have got the balance totally wrong in this country. Time to make crime pay in the punishment sense, not monetary and comfort sense.

Still it will be virtually impossible to change while Mrs Blair and her group of colleagues are reaping such huge amounts from protecting the guilty.
28

Selgovae,

16/05/2009 09:09:29
#21 " while the muslims who demonstrated with placards that read "Behead Those Who Insult Islam" didn't get charged"

Wrong. Mizanur Rahmanwas charged and found guilty of stirring up racial hatred. (He was the guy carrying the placard at the Danish Embassy.) But I get the feeling you'd prefer he hadn't been charged so you can froth some more.
29

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/05/2009 09:23:48
#27 Media At One

So in South Africa having access to a toilet is "five star luxurious".

I will remember that if I come for the world cup.

#28 Auld-Yin

"Time to make crime pay ", it certainly does in Westminster.
30

Galalean,

Mission 16/05/2009 09:25:52
#16 Linkskaill
They must be "smoking" something I do not know about.
Reading his comments regularly, I thought there was nothing that HE did not know about. I presume HE must be a lawyer?
31

Media at One,

16/05/2009 09:28:57
Selgovae -
I think the problem with the muslim issue is this; Muslim's can demonstrate in EUROPEAN nations and display visual reading "behead those who insult Islam"
This is because the inventive, innovative and mature people of Europe are able to show restraint when insulted.
In Islam, if a Westerner displays a placard suggesting that we should behead anyone who insults christianity or the west, they would be stoned to death - the freedoms that Muslim people enjoy in the West are not as readily available to westerners in Islam. It is issues such as these that frustrate the hell out of people. If Islam is so intollerant of the West and its way of life then perhaps all the Muslims should be sent home until they learn to respect the western nations they live in - just a thought use it dont use it
32

FTH22inarow,

16/05/2009 09:30:52
Its back to serfdom for the us then, a Leopard never changes its spots. Tories still the party of the few.
33

Media at One,

16/05/2009 09:36:24
Kampung Highlander

When speaking about killers and violent rapists it is important to keep the debate serious enough to find a solution for the victim. The ease with which you try and avoid the serisousness of this issue is typical of the sort of sub standard thinking so much of Britain suffers from.

Killers and rapists reside in prisons that dont only offer them clean and pristine toilets and showers, but also satellite television, libraries, pool halls, snooker tables, the chance to study anything they wish, computer classes and a host of other top class facilities. The man in the street who loses a loved one to these horrific crimes must contribute through his tax to maintain the lifestyle of the convict, because the human rights bill says that the killer is as important as the victim.
You can again chose to make this about me, you can make jokes about whatever you want, or you can take the issue seriously and offer us a solution
34

Serbo,

cresentonthesaltiresoon 16/05/2009 09:42:08
Taxpayers being forced to pay banks toxic borrowing is a form if financial slavery which is illegal under article 8 of the human rights act,who says slavery was
abolished in the uk.
35

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/05/2009 09:51:01
Yes we could certainly learn from South Africa where the punishment for rapists is to serve a Five Year sentence as President.

But in all seriousness, do you not think that people who are imprisoned, for whatever crime because we currently do to have a system that makes the accommodation more austere for more serious offences, should at the very least have access to a toilet?

Because that is what "Slopping Out" means, now if you think sh!tting in a bucket should be part of the punishment just say so.

Sure you could make prisons more austere, no telly, no pool tables, no classes, no rehabilitation.

But first you need to decide what you want to accomplish, revenge or protecting society.
36

Selgovae,

16/05/2009 09:55:54
#34 "but also satellite television, libraries, pool halls, snooker tables, the chance to study anything they wish, computer classes and a host of other top class facilities"

Honest question. Does the ECHR really guarantee these things as rights?
37

Media at One,

16/05/2009 10:06:37
You keep referring to South Africa and their newest leader, but I suspect that such comparisons are futile, African leaders are not as competent or able as their European counterparts and cannot be judged as such. What happens in Africa is African and it cannot be summed by you and I -
But in terms of first world prisons I agree that convicts should be offered a private place to go to the toilet and a warm enough bed - but thereafter, I would make it tough - not for vengeance, but as punishment for their attrocious actions - A glass of water and some fruit for breakfast or dry bread - a small lunch and perhaps a more substantial dinner. No visitation rights, no luxuries, no newspapers, no tv, nothing of the sort. It needs to be tough and sentencing needs to match the crime!
I accept it is a tough one, but in recent times convicts have enjoyed far too much of a free ride on the back of a society forced into respecting their "rights"
38

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 16/05/2009 10:09:19
A number of comments above illustrate the widespread lack of knowledge, and indeed confusion, that prevails on the subject of "Europe". The European "political architecture" consists mainly of five major organisations, of which the 27-member European Union is the smallest. The senior organisation is the Strasbourg-based Council of Europe, representing 800 million Europeans in 47 member states, including Russia. It is the Council of Europe, and NOT the EU, that operates the European Court of Human Rights. The European Convention on Human Rights was promulgated by the CoE and NOT the EU.

The European Union does not represent the whole of Europe, despite its hijacking of the expression "European" on every occasion, and its persistent attempts to achieve a monopoly by taking over the functions of the other organisations. The EU is not a member of the Council of Europe and has not signed the Human Rights Convention. If it ever did apply for membership it would be rejected out of hand, because its institutions come nowhere near meeting the standards of pluralist democracy that the Council demands. It was the Council of Europe, and NOT the EU, that forced the Blair government to restore the Scottish Parliament and set up the Welsh Assembly (see www.realmofscotland.com/paper).

The "other" European parliaments, those of the Council of Europe and the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), consist of delegated members of national parliaments, with none of the current ballyhoo over the election to the EU's so-called "European" Parliament. The CoE's European Convention on Human Rights therefore possesses a higher standard of legitimacy than if it had emerged from the European Union with its highly defective democratic structures. The Convention may have its weaknesses through having to cater for the situations in 47 states, but we would all be in peril if we were ever to throw it away.
39

Stan Butler,

16/05/2009 10:12:14


Utterly shameless self promotion by MacBride. He's hawking himself about like a worn out old slapper.

What a sad contrast to Lord Mackay of Clashfern. The story goes that when he was appointed Lord Advocate by Thatcher in 1979 he was congratulated by a colleague who expressed some surprise saying 'I didn't know you were a Tory' to which Mackay replied 'Who said I am?'

40

Media at One,

16/05/2009 10:13:19
#37 Selgovae

Probably not, but when the prisoners want something it has become normal for them to speak about their human rights - Once they do that there is this knee jerk reaction from society to satisfy their needs.
That can no longer be permitted - I dont know what the outcome was, but remember the Dalkeith killer? The young lad that murdered his girl friend in the woods? He was looking for damages because the prison system was interfering with his human rights - apparently the problem was that he was not being given the chance to spend more time with his new girl friend - It is time to treat violent offenders with the contempt they deserve.
41

Russell M,

Stirling 16/05/2009 10:15:53
The European Convention on Human Rights is not grievously flawed in principle. It is in its implementation where things start to go awry. With a focus on preserving existing authority structures instead of on maximising individual liberty, errors of judgement become compounded. Given the horrendous cost paid by the European people to defend their institutions in the Twentieth Century it is not surprising.

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." Or in the modern vernacular, better the devil you know (than the devil you don't).

A wise man once said the price of liberty is constant vigilance against corrupt bureaucracy and a constant willingness to fight injustice no matter the cost. Have we reached the point where the average Britain is no longer willing to pay the price? Will those in authority continue to push the price of civil liberties upward in the hope that we the people will prove morally bankrupt?

Projection is a type of defence mechanism. In projection, a person (or institution) experiences an emotion or thought that they aren't able to cope with. So, instead, they perceive the thought or feeling as if it had come from someone else. One example of this mechanism is the person who is angry at a friend, but does not feel comfortable with feelings of anger in himself. He may instead deny these feelings and imagine that his friend is the angry one.
42

Phil o Brian,

16/05/2009 10:20:06
Surely your human rights need to be "earned" ie you have to be seen to be part of society and "contribute" to the general benefit of the people. If not, how do we live together?
If you step out side and disregard other peoples human rights, have you not put yourself outwith the human rights?
Huma rights legislation is required to keep the man in the street safe/fairly treated by Govt etc. It should not be a "crooks" charter.
Its a little sad that this forum only sees it in as independance issue.
43

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 10:21:21
So, they're allowed to tear up human rights laws but tell us not to "tear up" britain?

Someone in the tory party should sit down and start thinking what they are saying!
I bet they are annoyed that the "british jobs for british workers" was already used by Broon and other dodgy individuals.

Saor Alba
44

Nikostratos,,

16/05/2009 10:21:55
The problem with the Conservatives talking about Human Rights is their definition of 'Human' only encompasses white middle class and English.

45

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 10:22:19

Maybe they want torture us if we vote SNP!



Saor Alba
46

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

16/05/2009 10:24:46
# 43

Let me see, as I understand, you are saying, if the torys want to tear up our human "rights" then they loose theirs instead!

Think about it!

Saor Alba
47

James (1),

16/05/2009 10:35:56
The Human Rights Act or Charter for the Protection of Criminals needs to be done away with.

The title gives a false impression of what it actually does.
If the Tories get rid of it then they have my vote.
48

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 16/05/2009 10:37:25
#40 Stan Butler: My opinion exactly of McBride. I also agree about Lord Mackay of Clashfern, the most admirable individual in politics I have ever encountered. I still remember my conversation with him on the occasion of the 1993 European Summit (CoE, not EU), when he was there representing the Queen. That was the occasion when the Council of Europe started the process that led to the restoration of the Scottish Parliament. If Scotland becomes an independent kingdom within the Commonwealth, Lord Mackay would be my first choice as Governor-General.

49

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 16/05/2009 11:30:15
#38 Media At One

I generally agree that Prison should not be a holiday camp but I do disagree with some of the measures you advocate.

No Visitation - By denying the prisoner access to visitors you will deny them the ability to maintain to some degree the family relationships that the prisoner will need when they get released to try and reintegrate themselves into the community.

No Classes - Many people in prison have not completed school and this makes them more likely to fall into a life crime. I think if educating them increases there chance of becoming gainfully employed tax paying citizens then it should be available.

No TV or Pool - Everyone who has had children knows that the TV is the great Babysitter. I think that Prison Officers would object if this way of killing time was lost because the prisoners might use the time to create mischief. Idle hands are the devils plaything.

Perhaps a more constructive solution would be to require that all prisoners devote themselves for 8 hours a day to some sort of useful function like learning a trade, getting educational qualifications as well 2 hours of attending rehabilitation sessions, 2 hours of PT with the balance given over for domestic chores. This would however cost more to supervise than we currently spend, hence the prison services use of TV's and pool tables to keep them busy.
50

James (1),

16/05/2009 11:42:57
#50 Prisons should be tough places. Edinburgh Prison has a big drug problem.
If we cannot control it in a supposed controlled environment then why expect to do so out in the free world?
Visitation should be through glass screens and telephone. That way no contraband can be passed.
Books available but no TV.
With regard to those that wreck prisons they would get real hard time.
But hey, we live in the PC tree hugging world of everyone is a victim and needs our love and understanding.
Forget that they will be pickpocketing you as you give them a hug.
51

hoblar,

16/05/2009 12:13:58
The tories will tear up the right of Scotland to vote for non unionist parties more like.

Human rights?

The useless tories will mess around with Europe as they tend to do, but the implication that tearing up human rights would sound better if the hootsman didn't support id cards and suspect detention that come courtesy of right wing new labour.

The tories and new labour will shaft anybody, that is because they are the exact same party, so don't encourage them....don't vote for unionist parties.
52

steve52,

Kinfauns 16/05/2009 12:37:56
How many of you have taken the UK governemnt to the ECHR? At a rough guess I would say none. Well I have and had to do so on my own with no legal qualifications. I could not afford a MacBride to act for me and was forced to do so as Lord Fraser headed the cover up. I won my case and was granted £100 in compensation and £3000 in expenses. The UK spent around 2 million of YOUR pounds defnedning what it knew to be a lie, a lie which came from civil servants.

The ECHR is a great leveller and to rip it up would serve only the Governemnt and not its citizens.

It is far from being a charter for criminals as some on her say, showing their ignorance. It is there for ALL citizens and cannot choose between one or the other. As it happens the UK has the worse record and has spent more on fines than any other European country over cases raised by prisoners for denial of basic rights. These include not being assaulted by warders or thugs in uniform, interferrance with mail especially mail to the police complaining of assaults....everyone has the ight to make a complaint to the police in confidence but warders read complaints made about them and have time to work out a story.

Dont knock the ECHR as one day you may just have need of it.

I read that a lot of people posting on here have been to prison. James(1) and media one are two fine examples. I mean how else would they not know exactly what goes on in our prisons? Perhaps the belive all they read in the Sun.

It costs £900 to keep someone in prison. It costs apporx. 60 pence per day to feed them. Where does the rest of your Money go to? The say crime does not pay, aye right its a nice little earner for loads of people. One example....warders in Peterhead prison in 1986 were taking home after tax and rent £400 + per week Soldiers, nurses, policmen firemen etc were earninghalf that. Warders were sleeping in the prison and getting paid for it...working 24 hours per day. Hey that lot could show MP's how to fiddle money
53

Ewan Randall,

16/05/2009 12:41:45
(#52) – (hoblar) – What is it about the Tories which makes you believe they will tear up the right of Scotland to vote for non unionist parties?

What makes you think a tailor made bill of rights would be to our detriment?
54

steve52,

Kinfauns 16/05/2009 12:46:38
2) Two warders were actually found guilty of living off immoral earnings as their wives were entertaining sailors down the docks, for a price of course.

TV sets were given to prisoners, which they have to pay for using, as a way of keeping them out of the way. Warders have an even cushier life now than they did years ago. Many prisoner do not see or speak with a warder for weeks on end.
As Malcome Rifkind stated, prisons are a place of confinement only. It was he and the Tory party that drastically cut education, training, cleaning materialsand yes even soap to save money. Oh and New Labour continued these cuts.

The next time you hear a plitician talk about rehabillitation you can take it that you have listened to a liar. There is no such thing in our prisons.

James(1) The amount of drugs coming into our prisons would not be stopped by closing open visits. There are only small amounts that come in this way. The onl way to stop large amounts, and there are large amounts, from getting in to a prison would be to have no warders working in prisons. I men when a prisoner if found with a bottle of vodka in his cell or a TV set or even a mobile phone do you honestly beievehe smuggled that through the visit room stuffed up his ar*e. Get real will you.
55

Ewan Randall,

16/05/2009 13:15:47
(#50) – (KampungHighlander) – What is it about those who break laws you believe should automatically have the right to visitation?

Do you think classes in prison should be restricted to those of maths, English and some sort of human development?

Do you not think the radio is good enough to take the place of the TV and pool?
56

nova albion,

16/05/2009 13:40:23
At long last,we may get rid of the stupid human rights,that protects the criminal and leaves the law abiding citizen to go hang!
57

nova albion,

16/05/2009 13:42:46
52. Just had a thought! why don't you take your bigoted attitude and shove it up your ar-e.
58

Media at One,

16/05/2009 14:01:49
There is a prison in the states that consists of army tents - Prisoners are awoken at 05h30 and put through their paces for an hour, they need to keep their tents and their possessions clean and tidy and failure to do so results in solitary confinement - They get water and dry bread for breakfast, a small lunch and a cooked dinner and they work the land all day digging holes, building and carting things around.
When asked if this wasnt a bit harsh, the warden said "if it is good enough for our soldiers you better believe its good enough for these sons of beeatches?
59

nova albion,

16/05/2009 14:06:35
59. Well said.
60

Nikostratos,,

16/05/2009 14:10:39
#59

Reminds me of my childhood..........happy days
61

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 14:17:21
Err Human Rights are not just applicable to prisoners you know, they are applicable to all of us. So for the sake of being able to have a go at some of the most unfortunate people in the country, you would sign away your rights to a muppet like Paul McBride so you can make crims shlt in a bucket.

You Daily Mail types really do lower the tone you know.
62

Media at One,

16/05/2009 14:20:45
observer - we are not having a go at the most unfortunate (the victims) we are having a go at the scum in prison
63

ultravires,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 14:26:08
If the Tories get back into government, one of their items on the to-do list is to strip away powers from Holyrood, not extend them - and this example of ripping up ECHR is just the first of what will be just another Government intent on keeping control at Westminster.

The best thing the British electorate could do is not to give any main party an outright victory - the Tories with a huge majority would be just as destructive as Labour have been with theirs, and the Tories before them in the late 80's -90's.

Oh, and on McBride, there's a lot more to come out about him yet .. Sunday Tabloids seem to be doing some good digging ..
64

nova albion,

16/05/2009 14:27:47
62. Guess you are one of the "do gooders" that make decent law abiding people want to punch your lights out! we won't because we abide by the law,
65

nova albion,

16/05/2009 14:30:05
64. With the greatest respect the people of Scotland will have fuke all to do with it! England will put Cameron into power.
66

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/05/2009 14:34:42
65 I guess you are one of the morons that thinks that Victorian penal policy works ? Look around you dimwit, it doesn't.

But that is not the point of what I said. I was talking about people who haven't been incarcerated. Or does that not apply to you and your family/friends ?
67

James (1),

16/05/2009 14:42:00
The Human Rights Act is one of the most abused pieces of legislation there is. It is used by those who deserve all they get. So what if they have to slop out! Why should I care one iota for some scumbag that is doing time? Why should I not get to treat him/her with exactly the same respect and care that they showed to their victim? Why should they not get locked up for life if life is the sentence they are given?

#53 There are many cases that are found in favour by the Human Rights Act that should never have been.
I don't know your case so can't comment on whether it falls into that category.
The lofty sum of £100 plus expenses indicates you had been really slighted! Thankfully you did not use the public purse to try to make a case for yourself. However there are those who would and do.
Your purile attempt at undermining what was said about prisons shows you have no legal qualifications.
Do you think an Advocate needs to commit a murder to understand what murder is? Would you need to put your hand into a flame before you knew it was going to burn you?
Prisons are rife with illegal stuff and the reason that is because we cannot treat prisoners like prisoners and that is due to the Human Rights Act.
Too right we should be able to read their mail and we should be allowed to monitor their phone calls.
They are prisoners, nothing more nor less. As soon as they got banged up they were no longer members of the public and should lose all privileges.
Seem a bit harsh? Good!
68

nova albion,

16/05/2009 14:43:22
67. Tell you what,you go and play the "Human rights card" but the next time a suicide bomber decides to blow up Glasgow airport,you can be the one to stand on your pedistal and plead his innocence!
69

James (1),

16/05/2009 14:44:59
#62 That is the problem. They should NOT be available to prisoners only members of the public.
These low life have nothing better to do than challenge authority and at our expense so I say "duck" them. (real word sounds like duck)
70

Media at One,

16/05/2009 14:47:55
Observer -
Innocent victims are being slaughtered by savage criminals and it is societies responsibility to ensure that the animals serve hard time.
Nobody here is suggesting that prisoners should be chained up, but violent convicts must serve real hard time -
It is not societies job to TRY and rehabilitate criminals, it is our job to jail them for life when they commit violent crime.
71

nova albion,

16/05/2009 15:10:36
Observer seems to have lost his tongue!
72

ultravires,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 15:24:10
The only people who have twisted the Human Rights act are lawyers - who use it to make money. Get it ? Money.

Slopping out ? Thats fine sir, we will take your case on and get you some comp.

Hospital gives you 30 times normal radiation dose - Forget it, we are insured by the same insurers so go drop dead and don't bother claiming legal aid - it all goes to McBride & co.

If you all want to blame someone for abusing ECHR, then blame the people who use it (lawyers) to make money, not the people who try to use it as it was originally intended.

Anyone think the Tories will come up with something better than ECHR ? You must be on something if you do .. it will be back to the good olde days of expenses and titles for party supporters and the people can go to hell.

66 nova albion

ok then, it has to be independence and Cameron can go milk the English instead of us.
73

nova albion,

16/05/2009 15:31:00
73. A thug breaks into your house,threats your wife and kids if you lay a finger on the baastard you are the one to get done.
74

ultravires,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 15:50:21
74

Only because politicians refuse to reform the law - they'd rather spend time milking their expenses from the taxpayer.

or

If you manage to get McBride to represent you - he can do a good job of claiming the intruder fell over the cat, and on legal aid too. Oh wait a minute though - he'd rather represent the intruder (as he usually does) and get more legal aid .. I forgot.

So, do you think the Tories will give the UK a better bill of rights than ECHR ?

Will McBride & Lord Fraser sit down, write a bill which says rights for some, not for others ?
75

nova albion,

16/05/2009 15:53:07
75. It can't be any worse.
76

ultravires,

Edinburgh 16/05/2009 16:15:38
76

It did - the Poll Tax - tested on Scotland by the Tories, and if you take a look at the current Scottish Tory front bench team, most (or all) of those actually supported it when they were in the party at the time.

What next are the Tories going to test on Scotland ? Is this venture by 'Team Powderpuff' going to test out a third rate bill of rights on us ? No thanks.
77

nova albion,

16/05/2009 16:27:02
77. Oh dear, maybe you'll get some of the medicine England has had to stomach over the last 12 years.
78

nova albion,

16/05/2009 17:56:06
79. You said it mate!
79

barbour,

Sandbanks 16/05/2009 18:12:20
One of the threads that continualy run throgh these posts is "The reluctance of the English to set Scotland free"
Nothing could be further from the truth,only the Scottish labour MPs want to retain the union in its present form,and only for the parliamentry votes it gives them.
Given the choice or a referendum in England,the latest polls indicate that the English people would dump Scotland tomorrow,and good riddance is the comment often added.
The tories recognise that there is no,or very little chance of gaining any parliamentry seats north of the border in the next general election,which they will
most probably win are quite willing to accede to both English and Scottish will and let Scotland go its own way.
80

nova albion,

16/05/2009 18:35:27
81. People in England are sick to the back teeth of scotland getting free prescriptions,free elderly care,free tuition fees, and to cap it all even their students that study at a English uni get it free,despite any English student studying in Scotland having to pay.
81

nova albion,

16/05/2009 18:49:15
The UNITED KINGDOM lol,Scotland has, and is still seeing to the demise of said country.
82

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

London 16/05/2009 18:57:14
There are more Scots in London than in Glasgow. Scots keep on saying oil and while I was working in Aberdeen,
I knew that Scots had very little to do with getting oil out, but they blame that they were not in control of energy dept then and hence... any excuse will do. Rotund Salamander could not even swing Trumps golf paradise smoothly. All talk and no action. Mean while our 007 Connery is in sunny place tens and thouands of place away from Scotland, roars for scottish independence. Before that he was in sunny Spain anywhere but Scotland. Our friends over there say that come putting X on ballot paper Scots go for the union as they know England will pay for their public services. Rotund Salamader has not convinced his compatriots yet that they should crown him as the kind of Scotland...and he will never. I bet that come 2023 Scots will be howling for independence contended with bloated public service.
If today referendum is held in England to get rid of Scotland, the wasteful Scottish MPs and their brethern Martin, Brown and Darling.. I have no doubt about the result.
83

nova albion,

16/05/2009 18:58:58
Good luck to the UKs entry in the Eurovision tonight,if the minority of scots get their way this could be one of the last entries.
84

nova albion,

16/05/2009 19:02:43
84. 99.9% at least.
85

barbour,

Sandbanks 16/05/2009 19:05:49
#82
The English are sick to the back teeth all right,but sick of paying for all the "freebee's that the scots get,as well as bailing out your failed banks and paying vast sums to your failed bankers.
86

nova albion,

16/05/2009 19:08:42
87. It's time for a English parliament,and for England to start looking after her own.
87

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

London 16/05/2009 19:19:29
One principal in a Scottish front-ranked university said confidently and confidentially that as long as the treasurer called England exist he can keep on acting as a crybaby saying that his university is lagging behind English top universities in research and get his funds from the treasurer. About the inequity of English students paying their due fees and their Scottish class mates in their universities( scottish students are in record numbers in English universities) not paying a penny, this principal shrugged his shoulders. hence I am very confident that rotund Salamnder will lose any referendum for Scottish independence and as I said Scots cry and howl having rejected the referendum for independence. We all know that this is a ploy to milk more money.
88

,

16/05/2009 19:30:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
89

barbour,

Sandbanks 16/05/2009 19:34:35
#88
Maybe under the Tories.
#89
"Scots cry and howl" surely not,unheard of,the English have stolen all their oil,kept them under the Westminster heel,the list of whinges is almost endless.
90

nova albion,

west midlands 16/05/2009 19:41:05
And the biggest whiner is salmond.
91

nova albion,

16/05/2009 19:48:45
We have had 12 years of scottish labour,it's about time we give the English tories a chance.
92

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

London 16/05/2009 19:54:05
@ 93 I agree. These nationalist politicians are scared to go it alone given the expanded EU with poor East European countries joining in the EU and Scotland taking its turn if and when becomes independent, and one of my friends a staunch nationalist supporter in Lothian says that the trick is to keep a poll lead for independence to scare the Englanders, which tells a lot about rotund salamander's existence in an unreal world. Salamander was saying a lot about Scotland like Irish republic in EU, the Celtic tiger which is now eating grass as the money it milked from EU is now diverted elsewhere.
I think England should give a referendum to English to get rid of Scotland and having won should watch how Salamder would react. he would be on the next plane to see his mentor 007 Connery in Bahamas for a " shaken but not stirred" drink chat about this thunderbolt.
93

Media at One,

16/05/2009 19:58:01
Funny how certain nations becme stereotyped -
Scotland is known for being a small dog nation of barkers..
If the topic was football, tennis, television, actors, singers, computers, movies, books - no matter what it is, somewhere some Scot will turn into a debate about independence.
94

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 16/05/2009 20:12:50
A bill of human rights is ultimately a dreadful waste of time and money, because the laws have to be tested by cases anyway. We have already set up our laws through such cases, so to repeat the whole saga is ridiculous. For example: "All people have the right to life." We would then have to test this human right in precedent cases for euthanasia, self defence, abortion, capital punishment etc. Invariably such cases would define limitations to the human right that would render it meaningless - it's the judgements in law courts that are meaningful and have real power. Bills of human rights all over the world are useless and extremely expensive sops to left wing constituencies uptight about human rights, people who do not understand how the law works, apparently just like Mr David Cameron. (Some appalling regimes have impressive bills of human rights.)
95

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

London 16/05/2009 20:27:23
@97 I disagree with you. Cameron is not inventing this himself. You seem to think naively that he does not consult his legal expert colleagues. Law court judgments
for example after incorporation of European rights laws have favoured for example the perpetrators and not victims. Many of my legal friends say what he says makes sense.
96

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 16/05/2009 20:46:13
I think this sounds quite a sensible move by the Torie. If I were English I might even consider voting conservative based on this well visioned proposal. Fortunately I'm Scottish and will be voting for the SNP and Independance. Phew!!!
97

nova albion,

16/05/2009 21:08:07
95. You hit the nail on the head,salmondella would be out of scotland like sh-t off a shovel!
98

nova albion,

16/05/2009 21:11:19
99.Seemingly you drew the short straw.
99

FerryPort,

16/05/2009 23:06:25
Oh that is hilarious

European human rights laws may be torn up under Tory government

Now let me read that again
100

Tris,

16/05/2009 23:26:01
Ha HA HA.

British Bill of Rights.

You have none unless you are

a. a member of the royal family
b. a member of the house of lords
c. an mp
d. a banker or other rich person who can provide money for us to waste.

Nah, the European ones may have many faults (remember the Brits helped to write them after the war) but they are better than what we would get from the likes of Cameron and his crew.

101

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

17/05/2009 12:12:55
#74
I think your getting things mixed up. That is not european law. That's UK law!
But the tories live with this uneducated lot who think europe is the blame for everything!
You guys are an easy target for the pied piper.
102

The Creature from the Back Lagoon,

17/05/2009 12:16:54
#87
Just because these banks are in Scotland doesn't mean they are scottish.
Every time I tried to send money abroad it went from Manchester. Now Manchester does not belong to Scotland what I found out.
A Haggis doon in England isn't english either or is it!
103

Rene Moya,

London, UK 20/05/2009 13:41:39
Richard: 'Well that's another reason to ditch this perfidious Union.'

The European Convention on Human Rights IS NOT A EUROPEAN UNION INSTRUMENT. The EU has NOTHING to do with the ECHR, which is a Convention adopted by the 47 member states of the Council of Europe and is pretty much solely concerned with human rights issues.

This is a monumental error--a huge step backward for Britain, and for its neighbours around it. These politicians ignore one of the basic premises behind the adoption of the ECHR to begin with: that is, to cement human rights and democracy where it didn't exist before, or at the very least consolidate it where it was weak. 'Leading by example' was one of the reasons Britain and other stable European states adopted this thing to begin with. And it is almost universally praised the world over by legal experts as the most successful international human rights mechanism anywhere.

These yahoos are picking at the odd decision here and there in an effort to apply a generalisation that is far from true: that the ECHR supposedly doesn't work. That is far from the case; if it wasn't for the ECHR Britain would have continued conducting torture on the sly; if it wasn't for the ECHR Britain would have ignored complaints from its own citizens, many of whom had no remedies left open to them at the UK level because the courts were too meek to contest 'parliamentary sovereignty'. And if it wasn't for the ECHR many more individuals elsewhere in Europe would have had to give up their quest for justice in the teeth of authoritarian regimes.

This is may very well be a back-door exit strategy from the EU. The adoption of the ECHR (again, not an EU document) is a condition for initial European Union membership. What signal would this send to Britain's allies? That Britain wants to retreat from the world, and from two of the basic pillars that are a hallmark of its duties in the world? Has Britain so lost the plot that it's willing to go down this destructi
104

Gafferz,

Glasgow 22/05/2009 11:45:58
Ask yourselves this what has the "humans rights" act done to help the lives of ordinary British people? NOTHING! it has only helped to have CRIMINALS, RAPISTS, MURDERERS have their sentences CUT to ridiculously low levels. It has also allowed criminals to get "PAID" for being in jail. Ask yourselves this do we really want legislation in place that seems to only help the worst in our society at the expense of the decent?

 

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