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Cameron promises political revolution

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Published Date: 26 May 2009
DAVID Cameron is set to promise a radical reform of the political system to restore public faith in Britain's democracy in the wake of the controversy over MPs' expenses, it emerged last night.
The Conservative leader is due to pledge to rebalance relations between parliament and the executive, scaling back the powers of the Prime Minister and government and giving MPs enhanced influence over legislation.

He will embrace reforms including limiting the use of the Royal prerogative, considering the introduction of fixed-term parliaments and giving MPs powers to choose the chairs and members of the influential Commons select committees which scrutinise the work of government departments.

In a newspaper article, Mr Cameron outlined the proposals he will unveil in a speech in Milton Keynes today.

He said: "I believe the central objective of the new politics we need should be a massive, sweeping, radical redistribution of power.

"From the state to citizens; from the government to parliament; from Whitehall to communities. From the EU to Britain; from judges to the people; from bureaucracy to democracy.

"Through decentralisation, transparency and accountability we must take power away from the political elite and hand it to the man and woman in the street."

Mr Cameron's intervention follows a series of proposals for constitutional reform from Labour ministers.

Health Secretary Alan Johnson yesterday called for a referendum on voting reform for Westminster elections, while Energy Secretary Ed Miliband proposed ending old-fashioned parliamentary procedures such as MPs addressing each other as the right honourable or honourable member. But Mr Cameron dismissed any suggestion of ditching the first-past-the-post voting system in favour of proportional representation, as Mr Johnson suggested.

"Proportional representation takes power away from the man and woman in the street and hands it to the political elites," the Tory leader said.

"Instead of voters choosing their government on the basis of the manifestos put before them in an election, party managers would choose a government on the basis of secret backroom deals. How is that going to deliver the transparency and trust we need?"

Mr Cameron cautioned that "tinkering" with the constitution would not resolve the tensions exposed by the recent revelations over MPs' expenses. "Much of the recent excited talk of 'revolution' is overblown," he said. "We need to keep a cool head and a sense of proportion. We mustn't let ourselves believe that a bit of technocratic tinkering here, a bit of constitutional consultation there, will do the trick."

He called for a "change of attitude" among politicians, which would see power passed down to neighbourhoods and local councils.

Beneath the anger over the expenses scandal was a deeper discontent in British society over a feeling of powerlessness and an "increasingly Orwellian surveillance state" symbolised by the government's ID card scheme, he said.

Mr Cameron added: "The anger, the suspicion and the cynicism – yes with politics and politicians, but with so much else besides – are the result of people's slow but sure realisation that they have very little control over the world around them, and over much that determines whether or not they'll live happy and fulfilling lives."

Setting out proposals for reform in today's speech, Mr Cameron is expected to say he would open up the legislative process by sending out text alerts on the progress of bills through parliament and by posting proceedings on YouTube.

And he said he would end the "pliant" role of parliament by cutting back on whipping during the committee stage of a bill's passage on to the statute book, when small panels of MPs go through the legislation line by line seeking to improve it and iron out flaws.

"There should be much less whipping during the committee stages of a bill," he said. "That's when you really need proper, impartial, effective scrutiny – not partisan point-scoring and posturing."

Mr Cameron is today expected to say he would strengthen local government by allowing councils to reverse unpopular decisions from the centre, like closing post offices or railway stations, by giving them the power to raise money to keep them open.

Last night, Tory sources indicated this would not automatically mean powers for the Scottish Parliament.

The Tory leader is also due to indicate his readiness to go further than Prime Minister Gordon Brown in curbing the use of the Royal prerogative, which gives the executive the power to take acts such as declaring war without consulting parliament. And he is expected to say he will "look seriously" at proposals to introduce fixed-term parliaments.

"We need to look seriously at the immense power prime ministers wield through their ability to call an election whenever they want," he said. "If we want parliament to be a real engine of accountability, we need to show it's not just the creature of the executive."


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1

Iainbroch,

26/05/2009 00:20:33
Is that a Thatcherite promise on constitutional change? Say something before the election and backtack on it after the election?

Leopards and spots come to mind.
2

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 26/05/2009 00:36:50
Looks like this newspaper is jumping horses in mid-stream. There seems to be a distinct pro-Tory bias in it's stories.

Well, with Labour looking like they won't be a power again for 20-years, the only alternative they have is to support the Tories against the SNP - hoping against hope that people will switch from Labour to Tory instead of voting for the SNP.
3

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 26/05/2009 00:43:13
Expect Maggie Brown to come out with his own counter proposals later today.

Fixed-term parliaments - you mean like Holyrood? They are following Scotland in so many things now, we aught to change of Westminster name to Holyrood South.
4

Sgian Achlais,

26/05/2009 00:54:30
2For Scotlands Future, Vote for the SNP 26/05/2009 00:36:50
Looks like this newspaper is jumping horses in mid-stream. There seems to be a distinct pro-Tory bias in it's stories.

=================
They tried for a few months to plod on but it seems they have eventually embraced the reality of labour being a disgrace.

The paper is still far to wrapped in the union flag to be truly representative of the population but at least they have slowed down the labour press releases.
5

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 26/05/2009 01:04:43
Not much Cameron is right about, but PR is one of them.

"Mr Cameron is today expected to say he would strengthen local government by allowing councils to reverse unpopular decisions from the centre, like closing post offices or railway stations, by giving them the power to raise money to keep them open"

So just threaten to close all the post offices and railway stations and pass the burden of national services like post and rail over to local councils - or devolved governments - to support it by raising their own money???

Call me silly, but I thought the purpose of taxes were to provide services.
6

Iainbroch,

26/05/2009 01:19:42
re5

Where did you get such a strange notion that tax was to provide for services? Hvae you been at the wacky backy?

As far as I can see there has been no relationship between taxes and services provided for several decades! Well look add your direct and indirect taxes and have gone up whilst the service levels have shrunk in the last 30 years? In otherwords we have been getting less and less in return for our taxes!
7

Neil Waugh,

Old Stathcona 26/05/2009 01:37:50
First order of business, of course, is to sack half his caucus who have been outed for being on the expenses fiddle.
The English guy with the Scots name (and anti-Scots attitude) is not exactly a colossus of credibility.
Then again, come the referendum none of this will matter.
Little England and their little parliament can do whatever they want to. Just like Zimbabwe and North Korea.
It won't be any of Scotland's concern.
8

Ewan Randall,

26/05/2009 01:45:22
Is it not interesting to hear those who have no choice on the matter making out they are the instigators of reform.
9

Gorach,

Oban 26/05/2009 01:51:25
Aye, a political revolution is coming indeed
10

Castaway™ ,

26/05/2009 02:26:08
David Cameron is against proportional representation does this mean he is also against the present form of PR elections for the Scottish Parliament so will he now propose first past the post elections to the SP ?
11

Ewan Randall,

26/05/2009 02:27:06
(#4) – (Sgian Achlais) – Have you ever heard of a national newspaper which is truly representative of the population?

Can you name it?
12

Jim Baxter RIP,

Sai Kung, Hong Kong 26/05/2009 02:57:37
Blair and his felons made similar promises about changing parliament including the Lords but did not have enough time as it was easier to declare war and kill innocents overeas. SNP is the only answer to Scotlands problems not an English Party of left or right.
13

Clartmonkey,

I'm all in a spin... 26/05/2009 03:00:16
"Health Secretary Alan Johnson yesterday called for a referendum on voting reform for Westminster elections..."

Don't these NuLiar Ministers ever talk to one another? I distinctly remember being told by David Milliband that we weren't going to have a referendum on the European constitution because "Referendums are the refuge of despots and dictators..."

Mind you that was after the Liar-party had proposed one in their 2005 manifesto. I guess it's just really hard to know where you are with this Liar-party and what they believe in.
14

!Ya basta!,

26/05/2009 06:13:44
I hate the tories as much as the next person but I wish folk would get a grip here and see this opportunity for what it is.

It is incredible to hear Tories speak of political reform of this nature and on the surface their rhetoric is spot on. We do need some pretty major changes, and that's just to catch up with other countries and 20th century ideas let alone 21st century ideas.

So people need to get behind a movement for genuine change because it's not even a once in a lifetime opportunity, more like a once in a century (or even more) opportunity.

The more people that start supporting this and pushing for some real change, the better the final outcome will be. This could be a turing point of historical importance.

But Cameron, new Labour and even the SNP can't be trusted with this, they will all seek to feather their own nests in the end and thta of big business, but if a vigorous force for change led by ideas of ordinary folk can be created, who knows what it will lead to.

The death of the Party system, would be a real achievement to start with.

As many folk here have said, maybe it is time. but let's think beyond our normal boundaries here, this is about more than indpependence it is about how we really run things.
15

FTH22inarow,

26/05/2009 07:29:26
Aye right, the tories change anything, they are all bought and paid for by the kind of scheisters that caused the depression
16

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 26/05/2009 07:30:32
Oh my god, I am shocked. Ewan Randall actually making a statement at #11. Must be a typo.
17

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 26/05/2009 07:33:50
Even if all Mr. Camerons proposed reforms where some day in the distant future ever enacted they would still only be half way to meeting the progressive standards of Holyrood.

We have one parliament that already works, we don't need Westminster.
18

,

26/05/2009 07:49:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
19

Doh,

26/05/2009 08:04:43


Have you been fooled again?

This is not the first time that a "rebranded" party has talked aboutr reform.

Remember New LAbour, read some of the guff Tony said back before he dirtied on Paddy Ashdown and then kicked the Jenkins Report into the long grass.

This is just more spin.

If people want real change, fixed term parliaments, less MPs elected by PR and less Prime Ministerial patronage they should vote Liberal Democrat.

20

The Tin Man,

26/05/2009 08:33:48
#21 Kampung

"We have one parliament that already works, we don't need Westminster."

Strangely, this is not the opinion of Holyrood, who have delegated more Scottish legislation to Westminster than they have put through Edinburgh, in the last couple of years.
21

mr broon,

Edinburgh 26/05/2009 08:38:13
The last time a Tory politician promised a political revolution she laid waste to our society!
22

The Tin Man,

26/05/2009 08:44:35
#28 indyinc

The SNP's website appears to have been purged of the 'constitution for Scotland', unless you can provide a link? There is a lot of stuff about the EU constitution, which, as a new member state, we would become automatic signatories too (along with automatically having to accept the Euro).
23

Prudence,

26/05/2009 09:03:56
From the Jenkins report
Fairness and the Role of Parties

“Fairness to voters is the first essential. A primary duty of an electoral system is to represent the wishes of the electorate as effectively as possible. The major 'fairness' count against First Past the Post is that it distorts the desires of the voters.
Parties should, like the electoral system, be servants rather than masters”


The root cause of our now discredited British democracy , the first past the post system , cannot be ignored. No point in being repairers of the damage. PR is the healthier option, otherwise it would not have been introduced into the devolved electoral systems in Scotland , Wales and Northern Ireland.


24

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/05/2009 09:24:32
#34 Tin Man,

When the last round of countries joined the EU they only got into the Euro if they met the financial conditions.

"Before a state can join the eurozone, it must spend two years in the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM II)."

The mess Comrade Broon has made of things would make it difficult for either Scotland or the UK to join!
25

Ewan Randall,

26/05/2009 09:32:08
(#20) – (KampungHighlander) – Has anyone seen my missing question mark I left off of my question posted at #11?
26

The Tin Man,

26/05/2009 09:50:02
#36 Jimmy

Indeed. Joining the Euro nowadays also means we all loose about 22% of our savings, compared to a year ago.
27

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 26/05/2009 09:57:08
MR CAMERON,YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME AND OURS BY TRYING TO WOO SCOTS VOTERS.

LONDON IS DOOMED,BY SELF INFLICTED GREED AND SPIVS.

SCOTLAND CAN LIVE AND BREATH AGAIN WITHOUT YOU.

THE SCOTS HAVE HAD ENOUGH,YOUT TIMES UP.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
28

Brodric,

26/05/2009 09:57:49
"Through decentralisation, transparency and accountability we must take power away from the political elite and hand it to the man and woman in the street."

How frightening! Who is the man in the street? Weren't all these politicians once men in the street (and women)?

What we need is less of the bull poo and a real engagement with what the man in the street REALLY WANTS. Not the crumbs of power that the Tory party thinks the man in the street should have or will want.

Yawn.
29

Alan B,

26/05/2009 10:04:05
#Tin Man

"Joining the Euro nowadays also means we all loose about 22% of our savings, compared to a year ago."

Bit of a confused argument. Are you really saying that if we had been in the euro before browns economic disasters had struck then we would not have lost 22% of our savings when the pound crashed against the euro.

30

Ewan Randall,

26/05/2009 10:17:20
(#42) – (Alan B) – Are you wishing now that you had read your post again before you posted it?

Is it not the case that if we had changed our currency to the euro there wouldn’t have been a pound to crash?
31

The Tin Man,

26/05/2009 10:18:20
#42 AlanB

I am highlighting the issues involved in having a choice over entry to the eurozone, and having entry to the eurozone forced upon us, when the EU sees fit, without any choice.

You can also say that Scottish exports to the eu would become 22% more expensive, compared to a year ago.
32

Ewan Randall,

26/05/2009 10:26:45
(#40) – (ecosseman) – Are you seriously suggesting that London is finished?

Hasn’t London been doomed before a number of times?

Isn’t the Norwegian sovereign fund investing in property there?

Shouldn’t somebody like you warn them their possible investment could be at risk?
33

Alfie the OK,

Emasculated England. 26/05/2009 10:55:14
Radical reform? Political revolution? What a joke.

What Cameron means is a continuation of his policy of trying to luvee up to the Scots and to double his seats in Scotland to 2 - and of ignoring the fact that STILL the only country in all of Europe without a national goverment is England.

Radical reform can only mean giving the English national democratic representation (an English parliament) and some say in their own budgets..... hey, 'Call me Dave', I think it's called 'democracy'...

Now, that's what I call radical.
34

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/05/2009 10:57:05
#45 Ewan,

I thought Comrade Murphy and his cohorts had declared Norway a bankrupt state like Iceland & Ireland???
35

Brodric,

26/05/2009 11:30:03
No 18 - The death of the party system? Eh?!

Whatever makes you think that Cameron is interested in the death of the party system?

The opposite is true and this is why the parties are not working together to solve the credit crisis - and we are being distracted by what is happening with the expenses scandal. How convenient for the banks and financial institutions.

Though the expenses scandal is obviously important, it is not so important as the overall problems facing the country. And until all politicians start working together, as in a war type situation, then all we have is the self interest of each party in governing the country. And what has that got to do with giving power to the man on the street? No power at all.
36

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 26/05/2009 11:34:51
45#

YES LONDON IS DOOMED,IT HAS BEEN A BUBBLE WAITING TO BURST FOR MANY MANY YEARS.

LONDON HAS BEEN OUT OF CONTROL FOR FAR TOO LONG,NOW IT TIME FOR CHANGE.

IN TODAYS WORLD,PEOPLE NEED THE COMFORT OF TRUST AND HONESTY BUT SADLY LONDON HAS LOST ANY RESPECT IT MAY HAVE HAD IN THE PAST.

SCOTLAND WILL MOVE FORWARD WITHOUT LONDON HOLDING HER BACK.

LONDON MAYBE GOOD FOR THOSE LIVING THERE BUT THE COUNTRY HAS BEEN SICKENED BY THE SPIVS AND CROOKS.

DO YOU SUPPORT THE SPIVS?

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
37

Number 6,

Germany 26/05/2009 12:10:33
I hope you all have strong stomachs, because there will be plenty more of this nauseous behavior coming from the panicking unionista cabal.

Labour will also soon be putting their "serious" face on as they try and con us into believing they are ashamed, embarressed, or, this is the best one... CARE.

They dont. They are all pathalogical liars, who would have their parents murdered on expenses if they thought it would keep them in power.
38

Aber-Scot,

26/05/2009 12:16:02
Cameron asks for more power to the politicians!!
These same politicians that embody trust and command public confidence...
Lay of the weed Davey!!
39

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 26/05/2009 12:21:18
My moniker on here I think is sufficient to say where my loyalties and vote lie.

However I do believe David Cameron has a thread of an idea here.
He will of course try as you would expect and try to frame things so as to suit his own party.

The good thing that has come out of this expenses ,and financial crash is that everyone now knows massive changes in our governance in political and financial matters need massive change.

The reason that every country of the EMpire left London Rule was their confidence in their own ability to find their own level and place in tthe world.

No country that ever left "British Rule" has ever asked to return to "Mother England".

The reasons that the SNP , and Plaid came into being was that long ,long before this crisis lit up all minds they saw Westminster in all its filth and corruption as not up to the best interests of their respective countries.

If and it is a big if , the UK is to survive it needs massive overhaul ,from a Victorian , Londoncentric ,dictatorship to a modern nationwide democracy.

In recent times Eddie George as Governor of the BOE was once quoted as saying job losses in the North of England was a price worth paying for stabiliuty in the London based economy.

That might have been the case if you were part of that London economy ,not quite so if you were a factory worker in Leeds.

IMHO we need to do the following , a written constitution , a Bill of Rights , a fully PR elected second chamber, a "commons" with probably around half the members there presently.

Simple fact USA with approx 350 million pop. has 515 Senators and Congressmen and women.

In Westminster we have over 1200 MPs and Lords.

On top of that we have MSps , Assembely Members in N Ire ,and Wales .
Councillors , parish councillors ,quangos.

We are the most over governed country in the world with the exception of Red China.

Should the Britsh public not get changes and by that I mean radical changes ,then it truly
40

Tartan Viking,

26/05/2009 12:23:21
#51, My thoughts exactly.

It's not more power they need - it's less. Joe Public needs more power.

And we need to boot out all these old codgers lying sleeping in the House of Lords, who only move when someone prods them to tell them the bar has opened.
41

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 26/05/2009 12:27:51
cont'd.
is time for the nuclear option in political terms.
An Independent Scotland , Wales ,and possibly a reunified Ireland.

Then we can put in place the correct form of governance political and financial that suits our specific needs.
We need to scrutinise Cameron's plans minutely .
We must not accept weasel words and actions that are implemented to strengthen the Tory Party only.

Holyrood was not given to Scotland as a fairer way of democracy .
It was for Labour to solidify its grip in London and Westminter.

We as ordinary subjects of the crown need to become citizens and stand up for our rights.
Westminster needs to reform or disband
42

Jimmy Le Pie,

26/05/2009 12:40:09
When I hear clowns like Cameron and that odious creature, Alan Johnstone start spouting about reforming parliament, the stitch up on our referendum in '79 with the 40% rule springs to mind.

As both Tory and New Labour Sleaze have both said, "we'll do anything to hang onto the union"
43

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 26/05/2009 12:40:54
Just a thought.

When Labour took power with Blair we had NU-Labour

Do we now have NU-Tories??

We know just how successful NU-Labour were at stuffing the taxpayer and filling their own pockets. Does anyone believe NU-Tories will be any different??
44

Grahamski,

Falkirk 26/05/2009 13:04:57
How good was Mr Cameron on Andrew Marr's tv programme on Sunday? What a performance, I couldn't help thinking that whoever is advising him has a Phd in Tony Blair - it was all clean cut looks, earnest family man simpering and empty rhetoric dressed up to sound revolutionary and profound.
Of course, it's not. The only thing that could be heard was the sound of cynical political opportunism - the real problem in British politics.
If you are looking for a radical change in the system then the last people to deliver it is the tory party.
The change they will bring about will be slashing public spending in the UK resulting in jobs and services being obliterated and making us pariahs in the EU with their intention to cosy up to a bunch of neo-nazi headbangers and misguided Czechs.
45

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

26/05/2009 13:13:10
Two things that would help fix things:

1. Buy a hotel and tell the MP's that they can stay in it for free when they're in London, but if they stay elsewhere, it's on their dime.

2. Make it illegal to suborn an MP by discussing Parliamentary business with them other than in Parliament or their Constituency offices where notes are taken. Make it an offence on the level of witness-tampering to try to affect an MP's vote in any other way.
46

Grahamski,

Falkirk 26/05/2009 13:15:46
58
Too right.
Whenever you hear a tory expound the virtues of freedom they mean the freedom to exploit.
47

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 26/05/2009 13:33:55
60 Grahamski
Agreed you cannot trust the Tories ,but no doubt you still trust Gordon Brown and his cohorts.

So please ,unless you are ready to join with others to embrace true reform do not insult us with just attacking the cynical Tories.
Westminter and its archaic practises and form of government is all of our problem
48

W Smith,

Middle East 26/05/2009 13:36:30
Usual psycho twaddle from the SNP supporters.

Any party that tolerates Bill Wilson (communist), John Wilson (tropical fish man), Sandra White (Butchers Apron wifie), Hanif (its like clay pigeon shooting - honest), Osama Saeed, and genius Kenny MacAskill has a cheek criticising David Cameron.

Ignor-Hamishes who live in a glass Brigadoon with legoland foundations powered by windmills shouldn't throw stones.
49

Grahamski,

Falkirk 26/05/2009 13:40:37
61
Incoherent and biiter. Are the two related by any chance?
50

Prudence,

26/05/2009 13:57:02
Hard to forget that it was Jack Cunningham the 40 year old Labour MP for Whitehaven that scuppered the referendum in 1979. He's now aptly named Baron Cunningham of Felling. Interesting that the Conservatives prefer the First Past The Post System. The Jenkins report considers it to be

"a recipe for the 'blame the other side for everything' confrontational style of politics, which has done much to reduce respect for the functioning of the House of Commons and for politicians generally"
51

Mèths,

26/05/2009 13:59:45
WH Smith #62

Yes indeed as you say - the SNP is a broad church.
52

David Ban,

04620 Vera 26/05/2009 14:09:03
So much has changed and the main parties have not taken notice. The labour party is an anachronism with its origins in writing the wrongs of a vast impoverished working class which existed in the 1930's.The conservatives are a class orientated bunch of unscrupulous business people maintaining an empire which has long ceased to exist.

There is no purpose to them- we need a new democracy based on the development of our cultures,wealth and contribution to the world communities in a non exploitive way.

53

Grahamski,

Falkirk 26/05/2009 14:11:15
66
I think you may have lost your way, sir - first left then second on your right for The Independent forums and their asinine hand-wringing....
54

Grahamski,

Falkirk 26/05/2009 14:28:30
69
Fancing forming a Disgusted of Scotia party?
The truly nauseating spectacle has been the faked contrition and the shameless opportunism on show here from everybody.
I can't have been alone at guffawing at the sight of that sanctimonious jackass Mr Clegg struggling to explain why the LibDems weren't paying stolen money back...they acted within the rules, apparently - jawdropping satire except it wasn't meant to be comedy...
55

Yeti,

26/05/2009 14:36:43
What happened to the SEP? Is it still on the go?
56

Geoff,

sa 26/05/2009 14:41:59
69 Conan-Ho Conan. i can understand your feelings. Everybody feels let down by the politicians. If they tighten the rules, the sad reality is that we will not get politicians who are more honest but politicians who will be more scared/have less opportunity to be dishonest. All the Parties have bad eggs but there are good men across the board as well including in the SNP! You should focus on what you believe in-an independent Scotland. I shall remain a Unionist and the best of the bad lot at present for me, look to be the Tories led by the likeable Anglo-Scot toff,David cameron! :)
57

Geoff,

sa 26/05/2009 14:47:46
57 grahamski-your post made me smile but perhaps a little harsh on Cameron. What else to do but try to present a clean face? Perhaps we expect too much of our politicians. We all have a bent side to our personalities and hey some of my best Marxist friends are happy to line up at the trough! I do agree that the whole system needs a radical overhaul though.
58

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 26/05/2009 14:53:20
Geoff

Are you a Briton in South africa (ex pat)or South African? Or something else altogether?
59

The Tin Man,

26/05/2009 14:57:22
Grahamski, et al.

Vote Jury Team.

http://www.juryteam.org/
60

Ewan Randall,

26/05/2009 14:59:36
(#47) – (Jimmy Le Pie) – Have you got a link for me to show what Murphy said?
61

Geoff,

sa 26/05/2009 15:01:04
74 Dave from Barra-why do you ask dave(says he naively)?
62

Geoff,

sa 26/05/2009 15:10:41
Off for a wee paddle in the great grey green greasy umgeni. Catch u later.
63

Ewan Randall,

26/05/2009 15:12:22
(#49) – (ecosseman) – Though it might be possible to convince some people very easily that London might be doomed, what indications from elsewhere have you got which might suggest you are close to being right?

As you are so fond of facts not propaganda, won’t you find it very easy to show me the facts of what you have been saying rather than any propaganda?
64

pwd,

Borders 26/05/2009 15:55:45
# 4

"The paper is still far to wrapped in the union flag to be truly representative of the population ... "

Which population is that - the 17% of the electorate which voted SNP in 2007 or the 83% which did not?
65

pwd,

Borders 26/05/2009 15:59:56
# 26

"An Independent Scotland can then only be run by the People for the People....

Thats the authority we Scots had before the betrayal in 1707..."

What a load of tosh!
66

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 26/05/2009 16:11:05
May I remind posters to this forum of the comment of Roman lawyer, scholar, orator and statesman, Marcus Tullius Cicero, born 106 BC, died 43 BC. said:

"Politicians are not born, they are excreted."

In fact it is may be that Cicero was quoting the Greek, Zeno of Ilea but whoever said it first, the reality is that this judgement has withstood the test of the millenia, as witness the United Kingdom's current crop of grubby, grabby, self-serving politicians.
67

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 26/05/2009 16:18:04
#80 Are you saying that 83% of scots support the union?

Ha Ha Ha - good one!
68

pwd,

Hawick 26/05/2009 16:28:12
#83

You might say that - I'm saying that 83% didn't support the SNP and independence.
69

DD ex-SNP voter,

edinburgh 26/05/2009 16:29:13
There needs to be big changes in the UK. I am disgusted with labours authoritarian policies and contempt for freedom.
70

Marga,

Edinburgh 26/05/2009 16:31:34
It gets worse, really. One unelected head boy, nominal head of the government, is being told what to do by another unelected head boy, not even in the government yet, and in media statements not in the House.

How can we let these people stitch up the country's electoral system for the next x years for their own political ends? Is any parliament going to get a vote on this? Is there going to be a referendum? Or is it the self-appointed elite once again deciding for themselves?
It would be nice if they got the message some time soon ...
71

The west awake,

Argyll 26/05/2009 16:34:12
"Health Secretary Alan Johnson yesterday called for a referendum on voting reform for Westminster elections"

I smell the deal concocted by auld Ming and Broon a while ago. The LDs covertly support Labour in Westminster and Holyrood in return for Labour supporting PR in a Westminster where the Tories have become the biggest party.

Of course this only works if the LDs and Labour can outvote the Tories, - big if, and it entails the LDs shafting Scotland/the SNP to pursue the "big prize", but then thats an old story.

I support PR for Westminster because it would release the LDs from their Labour shackles and maybe then they would consider what is best for Scotland (for a change).

72

Willie Mor,

North Britain ( Scotus Colony) 26/05/2009 16:44:25
Cameron and the Tories will be a disaster for Scotland.

As Prime Minister he will act like a colonial governor as the way of his predecesor Mrs Thtacher.

Indeed, one has only to look at recent pronouncements on the troubled province of Northern Ireland whereby Cameron has declared that unless the Sinn fein MP's swear an allegience to the Queen then he will cancel all their expenses when he is elected Prime Minister.

Consensual politics or looking for a fight with the colonials? I know what I think and so do most Scots.
73

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 26/05/2009 17:01:17
I believe NU-Cameron is right in rejecting PR.

With National PR you vote for a party and not for an individual. That is a recipe for a disaster. That's what the West of Scotland has been doing for the last 50 years at least - regardless of what idiot is put up as a candidate.

I want to vote for a representative who will represent me - and I want to know who that person is. I don't want to be told be some unelected party official who it will be.

The PR in Holyrood has got it right. It is PR PER CONSTITUENCY.

I think, as usual, Westminster will follow Holyrood's lead - AGAIN!!!
74

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 26/05/2009 17:06:36
One of the things I don't like about the Holyrood system is that if a list candidate drops out, they are replaced by another list candidate without a vote, and this will be a list candidate from another constituency.

There should be a by-election, even a list/PR election.
75

Grahamski,

Falkirk 26/05/2009 17:23:06
89
The Holyrood version of PR allows the situation where MSPs can stand as constituency and list MSPs simulatnaeously. We have the absolutely outargeous case for example, of Linda Fabiani, who stood for election and was rejected in the constituency election and the SNP party machine over-ruled the electorate and snuck her in on the lists. We also have the ludicrous situation where the party with the majority of list MSPs have an unfair advantage because the list MSPs can concentrate on political campaigning while their constituency colleagues get bogged down with the not insubstantial matter of constituency business. Democracy? Hardly.
I firmly believe in a first past the post election where the electorate selects one person to represent them. There should be no lists controlled by the parties. Every representative of the people should be directly elected by the people.
76

Prudence,

26/05/2009 17:26:33
The 1998 Report of the Independent Commission on the Voting System in Britain states

"What we are asked to do is to recommend the best alternative system which will then be put to the British electorate in a referendum."

Is it illegal to tell porkies, I wonder, especially as it was presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for the Home Department by Command of Her Majesty?
77

Grahamski,

Falkirk 26/05/2009 17:31:15
88

"Cameron has declared that unless the Sinn fein MP's swear an allegience to the Queen then he will cancel all their expenses"

That would be great, if it was true.....
78

Nevsky;,

Moscow 26/05/2009 18:25:27
91 Grahamski*

The flaw is the first-past-the-post system is that people generally tend to vote for political parties (quaint as your view is that they vote for individuals) this constitutes only a minority of the electorate.

You either believe (as you do) that each vote that is cast is wasted unless it is for the first-past-the-post constituency candidate which is domocracy of a sort but in the modern age (catch up now) not really representative of the views of the elctorate....

We have the situation where the Labour Pary was elected on 20% (or whatever it was) of the vote...are you suggesting that this is more democratic than that actual division of the electorate's wishes?

The 'system' is outdated, archaic and non-representative..designed for gentleman MPs from a time gone bye...like everything in the British system!
79

Campaign Lawer,

Elgin 26/05/2009 18:28:48
The major party's have no choice but to politically reform, Gordon Browns ignorance of this fact will only see his demise sooner rather than later.
Government's need the people and not the other way round.
Ignorance will bring:- "Come the revolution"
80

Iainbroch,

26/05/2009 19:18:51
Political Revolution? – Hardly!

I don’t see him proposing to scrap the Monarchy! I don’t see him proposing to scrap the House o Lairdees! I don’t see him proposing any kind of PR! I don’t hear him saying anything about devolving more powers and responsibilities to Holyrood, Cardiff or Stormont or the English Regions! I don’t see him saying anything about taking back powers etc from the undemocratic EU! The immediate arrest and prosecution of all lobbyists! Now all of these things would be something of a Revolution don’t you think?

So what exactly is revolutionary about Cameron’s utterances? Oh I get it – it is just more disingenuous Brit Unionist dissembling and more waffle from the Hootsman.

Now as for those other Revolutionary ideas I might have? – What about bringing back the Maiden for trough swillers like Darling and co or even just making sure that there is no immunity from criminal prosecutions for those trough swillers. Or even more novel one law for all – no exemptions! Better yet – allowing Juries to set the appropriate sentences for the trough swillers. Sentence to be carried immediately the Jury fixes the punishment – no appeals allowed!

Nothing that Cameron, Calamity Clegg or that Lieboar leadership pretender is proposing will end Corruption, Sleaze and Fraud etc at Wastetmidden! Lets face it we have a govt at Westmidden that is a cabal of war criminals and they are still on the loose!

Show them the Black Flag!

81

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26/05/2009 19:19:04
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82

,

26/05/2009 19:22:22
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83

Alan B,

26/05/2009 19:48:37
#Nevsky

i agree having constituency mp is over rated as few will vote on that basis.

for me it would be the leader of the party and the ideology and policies of the party that are important.

to an extent now a days with people so mobile who knows who your constituency mp until you start to get older and settle down.

i was not really against first past the post but seeing pr in action in the sp you can see some of the advantages

1)first past the post enforces a 2 party system. pr allows parties to rise and fall (created and die) much easier.
2)in westminster we see labour having more seats in england despite losing the popular vote.

constituency mps would work better if mps were not under the whip and were much more independent in their outlook eg like the US.

84

Alan B,

26/05/2009 20:04:46
in general if we are looking to reform the system i think we have to be more fundamental and as what we want from government and why they should exist in the first place.

we tend to assume that we need party political politics with something similar to what we have without considering the alternatives.


there are 2 things i would like considered
1)referendum questions probably attached to elections so that the poeple can decide on issues directly. could include stuff like smoking bans, id cards etc.
2)have functional presidents. ie let the people directly decide on who runs health eg health minister. who is in charge of law and order etc. this could be better than voting for parties that they do everything when you may like some and not other bits of their policies. it encouraging voting for the least worst option.


85

MT,

26/05/2009 20:35:10
#23 you are absolutely right. Politicians have no real power. Money does. They are mere puppets for multi trillionaire bankers, the military industrial complex and the crime families who rule this world, The rothschilds, rockafellers, the winsors and many others.
86

GOODBYE LONDON LABOUR,

Aberdeen 26/05/2009 21:26:08
Only a fool would believe Cameron's weasel words. Like London Labour, the English Tories are only interested in destroying Scotland.
Remember how London Labour's Quisling Feeble Fifty could do nothing to stop Thatcher's scorched earth policy in Scotland?
LABOUR IN SCOTLAND CANNOT STOP THE ENGLISH TORIES!

VOTE SNP VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE
87

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 26/05/2009 21:29:15
Ladies and Gentlemen BOYS and GIRLS, are you sitting comfortably. Do you remember 1979, if you do raise your hand, GOOD THEN YOU ARE IN AN EXCELLENT POSITION TO VOTE AT THE NEXT GENERAL ELECTION. The only way SCOTLAND can move forward is to VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE. We have been LIED to by EVERY UNIONIST PARTY before and cameron is no different than the other thatcherits in the past. Liebor are FINISHED in england and in SCOTLAND.The only way forward is to vote for YOUR COUNTRY SCOTLAND SNP.
88

Rothiemurchus 55,

USA 27/05/2009 05:53:53
Scotland Forever!!!! It has done my heart good to read some of these posts over the last 2 weeks, and realize that Scotland may at long last really achieve independence....I look forward to going to Bannockburn for the 700th anniversary and celebrating in the land of my ancestors in 2014...Vote for Scotland!!!
89

Auld Reeky,

27/05/2009 09:58:34
Cameron sounds more and more like Kinnock each time he opens his mouth, he will say anything to get elected, and hopefully like Kinnock will not, lets have a hung Parliament and then see what happens, they will certainly have to try harder than they did before and be more accountable before any party is given a majority in their own right. Time for the Revolution.
90

Number 6,

Germany 27/05/2009 10:24:03
Can someone please remind him that apart from the current LABOUR party, his rabble are greediest, sleaziest bunch of corrupt wretches ever to pollute
British politics.

Go away Cameron. Your making us all sick.

 

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