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Published Date: 27 June 2009
COPENHAGEN is not a big city. Fewer than two million people live there. But, in December this year it will become the most important place on Earth. The reason is climate change, writes Joan Ruddock.
Last week, the government published predictions of our future climate by the Met Office. For the first time their data is detailed enough to show us what the 2080s could be like in Scotland. The temperature on the hottest day of the year could rise
between 1.5 and 5.6C above averages in the late 20th century, whereas rainfall in the summer could decrease by up to 9 per cent.

Living conditions for our grandchildren could be unbearable, with flooding, heatwaves and droughts.

That's if we do nothing, if we keep going about our lives wasting energy and pumping heat-trapping gases into the air.

This is where Copenhagen comes in. At the beginning of December, the UK will take its seat alongside the other 191 members of the United Nations to find a solution.

With less than six months to go, the UK government is today publishing The Road to Copenhagen. It sets out why we think an ambitious global deal is both necessary and achievable, what it might look like and why it's important for every UK citizen.

This is make or break and the UK is pushing for the most ambitious deal possible. The science tells us that if we can reduce carbon dioxide emissions and limit global temperature rise to no more than 2C, we can avoid the worst impacts.

So with no time to lose, let's look to Copenhagen: not just the capital of Denmark, but the focus of the planet: where the future of Scotland and the rest of the UK could be secured.

• Joan Ruddock is the climate change minister.





The full article contains 317 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 27 June 2009 12:30 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Climate change
 
1

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/06/2009 00:30:06
If the small dog didn't excrete it would burst.

First it was global cooling,

Then global warming

And now it's climate change.

AMAZING...............all in the space of the last 30/40yrs,

What happened over the last 30/40millon years............yes, you got it.............global cooling.....global warming.........climate change.
2

murren59,

Isle of Arran 27/06/2009 00:47:58
When big business, and big religion, and big government, get behind a global programme to initiate population control, I might take these warnings seriously.
Until that happens, all else that we do, is like urinating into the wind.
In the meantime, excuse me while I yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn at this article.
3

Edward,

27/06/2009 01:16:35
'Joan Ruddock is the climate change minister' Not for much longer hopefully!
Labour are a shower of sleazy con merchants, who are no longer trusted
This shower of dog poo needs to be kicked out!
4

redcliffe62,

27/06/2009 01:22:53
scotland seems just as cold in summer and winter as it always was. if an island in woop woop with a few locals has an issue from sinking a few inches then that is not enough to chnage the world's economy in my view.
scotland needs to be 2 or 3 degrees warmer, so bring it on.
it might be nice to dip my toe in the firth of forth without ice forming around it.
as for brown borrowing another 60 billion to do this, the man should be certified. statrt by taking 30k from every mp from this year's allowance to help climate change funding and see if that changes their view on it.
5

Statsman,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 02:09:50
What about that other future dystopia - a police state run from Brussels by bankers under the guise of the EU?

Nope. Just stick to the version where everyone has to pay more green taxes to the very government and EU forcing that dystopia upon us to pay for its assembly.
6

Conan the Librarian™,

27/06/2009 02:28:04
"The temperature on the hottest day of the year could rise beetween 1.5 and 5.6C above averages in the late 20th century, whereas rainfall in the summer could decrease by up to 9 per cent."

Oh the horror.
7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 02:43:24

The Answer to all this is quite frankly,,

"WE_MUST_HAVE_SCAREMONGERING'S"!!!!

It is what keeps the World going, like the aliens coming to Kill us all, the Year 2000 Worlds End!, Blah, Blah, Bi-Blah, Bi-Blah!
All Stupid Nonsense, to Scare Us, To Keep Us, Under Control!
Soo,..'Stick-It-Up-Your-Jacksey'
(as it were)

8

John M,

Melbourne, Australia 27/06/2009 06:53:30
Why on Earth should we believe the utter tosh these spin merchants emit? The Met Office keeps saying that it needs bigger computers so that its projections will be more accurate, which means the Met Office is admitting the predictions are rubbish at the moment.

The climate models can handle clouds, major oscillations (e.g. El Nino-Southern Oscillation, North Atlantic Oscillation etc), can't accurately predict wind speed and direction or if High and Low pressure cells will stop moving and cause sustained cold or hot conditions.

Have you ever seen an independent analysis of the accuracy of the retro-predicted 1900 to 2000 period? If not, why would anyone take these predictions (which amount to begging for research funding) seriously?
9

Ed's everywhere,

Planet Earth 27/06/2009 07:11:51
You can choose. The climatologists have facts. The geographers know. You feel the way you like. You make your own environment. You pay more for the gas you consume and ecologically just so. The planet is changing and you are part of the 'developed world' and therefore you have responsibility to set a better example than the 'developing world', that is not to say we should accept pollutant Asian economic overdrive. Besides, the Iranians might just let a big buster off on the yankee troops in Iraq. If so, global change will really hit home. CLIMATE CHANGE is real, whether you feel it or not. I observed flowers in Edinburgh growing in January when they would usually flower in March or April! This is yet another sign of climate change. All the species on the surface of the planet are effected. If we are so insensitive not to realise it is in our own actions we make change then TESCO are happy to give you more plastic stuff, anytime. Buy rubbish, pollute the planet. It doesn't take much effort to REDUCE waste consumption, REUSE as much of the useless stuff we're given and RECYCLE all of the METAL (your car manufacturers are using recycled aluminium in Europe), PLASTIC, PAPER and GLASS from your own doorstep as we pick it up! Get real and just go along with the services provided your city councils!
10

Ed's everywhere,

Planet 27/06/2009 07:14:33
Melbourne is not as backward as John represents it.
11

Ed's everywhere,

earth 27/06/2009 07:22:01
Follow world news "conan". There are more natural disasters than ever before, whether its flooding, spring USA tornadoes, northeast Australian cyclones in February, New Orleans, etc. The signs are apparent although that is a weak Scotsman article. Just follow the BBC or CNN or any network TV. If it isn't democracy in the muslim world it's natural disasters or the death of some unimportant singer/dancer. The planet is effected by YOU and your neighbourhoods'/communities' RESPONSIBILITIES to take more care with what you consume and therefore with the pollution you produce. Most of Europe takes resonsibility with this. Where are you?
12

John Cameron,

St Andrews 27/06/2009 08:25:28
After a fearsomely cold winter, June brought heavy snowfall across large parts of western Canada and the northern states of the American Midwest. North Dakota had its first June snow for 60 years. As a result, in northern America summer planting of corn and soybeans is been way behind schedule, with the prospect of reduced yields and lower quality. Grain stocks are expected to fall to a 30-year low. In China, the world's largest wheat grower, they have been battling atrocious conditions to bring in the harvest. In South America, cold weather has caused the greatest decline in stocks for 50 years. A similar situation exists in much of Europe and food shortages may well again provoke riots from West Africa to Egypt and Yemen. The downturn in world temperatures has brought more cold and snow in the last few years than we have known for decades. It is now more than 200 years since the great astronomer William Herschel observed a correlation between wheat prices and sunspots. When the latter were few in number, he noted that the climate turned colder and drier, so that crop yields fell and wheat prices rose. In the past two years, sunspot activity has dropped to its lowest point for a century. Yet our politicians are so fixated on the idea that CO2 is causing global warming that most of them refuse to recognise that the problem is not that the world is warming but cooling. Another contributory factor to the world's food shortage is the millions of acres of farmland now being switched from food crops to biofuels, again to stop the world warming. Clearly the eco-fascists would rather millions of people starved than admit the possibility that the Global Warming Hysteria may be wrong.
13

nabodican,

Newton Stewart 27/06/2009 08:34:53
Eds everywhere has clearly followed the Al Gore doctrine hook, line and sinker.
If he were to look back over history at the freak weather incidents, he would see that there has always been gales, flooding etc.
Cleaning up our act with recycling, using less plastic etc is good thing and nothing to do with global warming.
14

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 08:42:58
Good news:

'Barack Obama's US climate change bill passes key Congress vote'
15

drunken proffet,

Tassy 27/06/2009 09:15:34
Look on the bright side, the world will survive. In fact with the more vigorous activity produced by global warming it could actually improve. So you guys with paws, flippers, tentacles and all those marvellous appendages you enjoy, raise them if you agree with global warming. You may not have the vote, but I am sure that someone will notice.
16

Media at One,

27/06/2009 09:18:34
When all the climate change campaigners wake up from their indoctrinated and hypnotic global warming stupor, we may begin to move toward a more realistic and mature approach to what is properly known as "Inherent Atmospheric Variation"
The Earth without people will continue to experience vast amounts of Atmospheric metamorphosis and there is not a thing we can do about it.
The climate change campaigners are merely fighting nature .
17

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 09:23:58
8. John M:

So how do you explain this (on 31 January this year):

'Wildfires destroyed more than 20 homes while hundreds of thousands of others lost power as a record-breaking heat wave that began claiming lives maintained its oppressive grip on southern Australia on Saturday.

About six people died from heat stress in Melbourne, Australia's second largest city, over three days before the temperature mellowed to 31 degrees Celsius (88 Fahrenheit) on Saturday, Victoria state Police deputy commissioner Kieran Walshe said.

Melbourne on Friday recorded its third consecutive day of temperatures above 109 degrees Fahrenheit (43 Celsius) for the first time since record-keeping began in 1855.'
18

preddo53,

Leeds 27/06/2009 09:32:54
Only the braindead believe in man made climate change, and lets be honest, you have to be braindead to think that the human race can actually change anything. One volcano can emit more c**p in a week than man can in fifty years. We've had climate change for melenia, it's natural. It's a good con though, you have to admit whoever thought it up must be quite bright, spread a rumour and watch the money roll in, wish I'd thought of it.
19

Mcsnagpile,

27/06/2009 09:37:50

How to cure global warming, ---what a joke.

UK population and industry is insignificant compared with the rest of the globe,
60 Millions compared with world population of 6.7 Billions. In terms of oil consumption we are way down the international list. The biggest user of hydrocarbons by a mile, in the world is still the USA. I can name and blame many major fossil fuel consumers and producers who do not care and never will care about pollution or global warming. Emerging economies will continue to massively expand with increased consumption. As long as fossil fuels are profitable it will be burned by somebody.
Carbon capture in global terms is just dumb. A few windmills here and there in global terms is just dumb. For China and other Far East countries to swap from coal to something like Nuclear is dumbo thinking.
The USA ‘s comparatively tiny population of 300 Millions cannot hog the World resources for ever.

These global meetings are just gravy trains.

Kick out foreign control of our news media.
20

Unimpressed one,

27/06/2009 09:45:25
FFS, nobody mention falling temperatures or we'll generate a seanie tsunmani on this board. Oops, too late!
21

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/06/2009 09:59:07
#9, Ed.

Have you ever given any consideration to the "costs" of recycling?

Why do we recycle glass bottles, at exorbitant cost, rather than simply wash them and re-use them?

Are we to subject ourselves to the C'nut-like arrogance of humanity or, will we learn to live, and cope with the natural cycles of our magnificent planet?
22

Unimpressed one,

27/06/2009 10:00:51
#11, You sound like a dyed-in-the-wool, fully signed up eco-bam.
23

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/06/2009 10:22:39
This is utter p1$h.

The temperature trend over the last 10 years is down.

In any case, why is it that the warmists always predict doom and gloom. Is there nothing good that would come out of a warmer climate. It just doesn't pass the sniff test.
24

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/06/2009 10:23:11
Oh my god, we have a "Climate Change Minister" !!!!!!
25

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/06/2009 10:28:38
11 ed

"There are more natural disasters than ever before"

Yes ed. Now can we have some evidence to support your (ridiculous) claim?
26

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/06/2009 10:31:34
13 nabodican

Absolutely.

For ed to prove his case, he would need to provide evidence that natural disasters are on the increase (they aren't) and that the increase was as a result of global warming (it isn't).
27

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/06/2009 10:33:41
17 fred

Explain what?
28

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 27/06/2009 10:39:14
12 John Cameron

What's the matter John, can you not think of anything to say for yourself so you plagiarise Christopher Booker from the telegraph?

As for "After a fearsomely cold winter", if you had bothered to look up the figures yourself, rather than just copy the nonsense that Booker comes out with, you would have found that the global average temperatures for Dec + Jan + Feb for the last winter were the ninth warmest on record and warmer than any recorded winter since before 1998.

29

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 27/06/2009 10:44:46
#23 connaughtboy claimed, "The temperature trend over the last 10 years is down."

You never bother with the facts, do you connaughtboy? In fact all four global temperature series for the last ten years (120 months) show an upward trend. The figures are here:

UAH (satellite) +0.097/decade
RSS (satellite) +0.070/decade
HADCRU (surface) +0.056/decade
GISS (surface) +0.152/decade

and you can check the data yourself here:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/data/uah/last:120/trend/plot/rss/last:120/trend/plot/uah/last:120/plot/rss/last:120/plot/hadcrut3gl/last:120/plot/hadcrut3gl/last:120/trend/plot/gistemp/last:120/plot/gistemp/last:120/trend


30

frank mcbride,

lusitania 27/06/2009 11:11:22
#28/9, Slioch.

How do these changes compare with the climate change periods recorded from Ice-core samples?

How do they compare with tree ring records?

Even the "famous Gore hockey stick" shows that major climate change has been catastrophic AND very rapid; the next change will be no different.

You would rather believe in the C'nut-like arrogance of humanity than the known climate history of our magnificent planet.

I fully support cleaner, renewable energy and technology, not because of climate change which we cannot change, but because it is safer and less dangerous to life and limb, in the here and now.
31

Diego Plasma Residue,

USA 27/06/2009 11:17:54
The fact that most of the digital sensors used were placed on top of commercial flat roofs covered in black tar paper and the ground level sensors were chained to fire hydrants just curb level next to black asphalt pavement , torqued the results up and the little mentioned fact that all the super deluxe computing powered models used flawed info... Garbge In Garbage OUT. The models mostly , as far as I have read, left out the sun spot solar max & solar minimum. The use of garbage cargo cult science to crank out some huge bad news laws throw in bio-fuels scamming to under write agri-business. The history of the modern world , what civilaztion that burns up its own food supply and dismantles its own industrial infrastructure will not survive long. The marmosets and merkats , maybie they will do a better job of things when it's their turn: D.
32

Fairfax,

27/06/2009 11:44:37
Conan (6): "The temperature on the hottest day of the year could rise between 1.5 and 5.6C above averages in the late 20th century, whereas rainfall in the summer could decrease by up to 9 per cent."

It's truly frightening: Scotland's climate would then be similar to the living hell of the Loire Valley, or even (shudder!) Bordeaux. England's climate might resemble the terrible waste that is Italy. . .

Alternatively, these naive mathematical extrapolations might simply be incorrect.
33

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 27/06/2009 12:28:23
"Climate Change Minister". A major presupposition in this title that Climate Change in the sense it's used to be something bad actually exists. Climate change is a natural phenomenon and man-made CO2 is making absolutely no difference. I would subscribe rather more to the gargantuan natural forces of sunspots, ocean currents and sea evaporation. We should be very very sceptical when Labour PM and now Joan Ruddock appear from the woodwork to be fully sign-up member of the eco-bampot movement.

Well of course Broon isn't really - he hardly knows which way's up - but he does know a brief good headline when he sees one and a tax opportunity. Plus some God forsaken son of the manse nonsense about saving all the babies in Africa or some other twaddle. Meanwhile he advocates spending (without reference to the taxpayer) £60bn of our Earth pounds on this abject nonsense to "save the poor countries" - well wouldn't that make you retch when in fact all he's about to do is chuck loads of money at nutty despots who are only too glad to keep their peoples in poverty so they can line their own pockets with our cash (which we don't have by the way).
34

Geomac 1,

Scotland 27/06/2009 13:13:52
Not April 1 is it? This has to be a joke, surely??
We in Scotland also have a Climate Change Minister ("Father Jack" Stevenson) - aren't we lucky?
#11 - don't you think that the reason for your claim that there are more natural disasters around the world could be because such events are being covered more and more by the media - I would maintain that there have been just as many in the past but they have not received such coverage. Do you have any scientific proof that such disasters are increasing??
35

Geomac 1,

Scotland 27/06/2009 13:15:43
A further thought!
Climate Change Minister - the very name implies success in such a role - the climate has changed over millenia and will continue to change. Or are these ministers going to change the change in climate??
36

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 13:40:09
What happened to the "hole" in the Ozone layer?

Has it got better yet?
37

dhu loch,

inveraray 27/06/2009 13:47:51
Climate's doing fine deniers holding yet another meeting?How come rational human beings like folk commenting here can hold an enviromentaly friendly discussion without travelling round the planet?
38

Fitba Krazy,

27/06/2009 14:13:28
The fact that climate change would exist anyway gives the charlatans and opportunists a solid base on which to develop yet another rip-off industry who will be charging fees for all sorts of natural stuff and to channel people into being forced to buy the products of the biggest polluters of the planet.

Wheelie bins are made of the worst polluter of recent years and poly bags, that ubiquitous throwaway that has multiplied out of control and is poisoning the seas along with other kerrapp like nuclear waste.

Are they going to stop the big companies making superfluous rubbish like armaments that also pollute the planet big time as well as causing other severe damage, or are they simply going to hassle and fine the public for trivial petty nonsense that is in a completely different league to the carver-uppers of Planet Earth?

You know the sort of thing, like telling people to switch off unused lights while massive neon signs advertise the wares of the plastic merchants in many varieties.

Fighting wars under false pretences to plunder finite resources and burn them up, whilst using up the aforementioned finite resources to fight the war with.

The hypocrisy and contrariness is typically completely illogical.

39

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 14:23:28
Ed's everywhere,earth 27/06/2009 07:22:01

"There are more natural disasters than ever before"

Years ago most large offices had their very own doom and gloom merchant, who would spout the very same thing.

The said nutter was always a religious fanatic and held the above expression as proof of the second coming.

Is there a link I wonder?

40

Martyk,

27/06/2009 15:12:08
Global warming or Climate change or whatever its called this week may well be happening. I dont know. Is it caused by human activity and fixable by human effort? I dont know that either but I am sick to death of tree-huggers telling me cow farts are dooming the planet and its my fault because I like beef. I THINK ( not know) that the world has gone through many thousands of these cycles and my instinct tells me it has a lot more to do with what the Suns mood is than our puny efforts. Coupled with natural events on Earth. I finally rejected the tree-hugger view on global whatever a few years ago when Mount Pinatubo erupted. It poured more "greenhouse gases" into the atmosphere in one day than the USA economy does in two years. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Hippy.
41

Martyk,

27/06/2009 15:17:36
And what happened to the Ozone layer which was disappearing fast and we were all going to fry and die? Oh the humanity! Never hear of it these days. Lot of folk making a nice living by frightening the plebs and thats it. Nae doot aboot it.
42

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 15:32:06
41. The ozone hole is gradually shrinking since CFCs were banned.

39. The insurance industry confirms that the number of climate related disasters is rising and that they are tending to be more extreme.
43

El Franko,

27/06/2009 15:50:31
Joan Ruddock has already demonstrated her loose attachment to her 'deeply held beliefs; when she made the transition from CND ban-the-bomb radical to docile government jobsworth. Now she has as readily taken, and will no doubt as readily drop, the climate change alarmism as a focus for her vanity.

Shame, deep shame, on her and all like her.

As more and more people wise-up to the alarmist fiasco, people like her will switch sides as elegantly as they can. I do not look forward to having her on my side, but I have no doubt that that day will come.
44

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 16:01:22
43. Franko, are you one of the fossil fuel lobbyists?:

'America's oil, gas and coal industry has increased its lobbying budget by 50%, with key players spending $44.5m in the first three months of this year in an intense effort to cut off support for Barack Obama's plan to build a clean energy economy.'

"These guys are spending a billion dollars this year convincing Americans that they are clean, green, cuddly and warm," said Bob Perkowitz, founder of the eco- America PR firm. Perkowitz is to brief the White House yesterday on a new environmental messaging strategy. "The enviros are getting their message out, but they are being outspent by 10 to one." he said.On advertising, the ratio is about three to one. The oil and coal industry spent $76.1m on ads from 1 January to 27 April, according to CMAG data seen by the Guardian. Environmental groups, led by Al Gore's Alliance for Climate Protection, the Environmental Defence Fund and the Sierra Club, spent $28.6m on ads in the same period, Tracey said.'
45

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 16:06:19
fred bloggs,Edinburgh 27/06/2009 15:32:06

"The ozone hole is gradually shrinking since CFCs were banned."

Perhaps you could explain how the ozone hole appeared over the south pole.

I have often wondered how these "CFCs" created a "hole" above the most unpopulated place on this planet.

Why not above New York or London or Johannesburg or any other large city?

46

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 16:18:17
fred bloggs,Edinburgh 27/06/2009 15:32:06

"The insurance industry confirms that the number of climate related disasters is rising and that they are tending to be more extreme."

Reference please.
47

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 16:27:57
fred bloggs,Edinburgh 27/06/2009 15:32:06

"The ozone hole is gradually shrinking since CFCs were banned."

I do not understand this.

Let's see,... "CFCs" were banned and the "hole" started shrinking....... now carbon dioxide is creating a problem.

If the whole planet stopped producing carbon dioxide will there be something after that (which we should worry about)?


48

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 27/06/2009 16:29:04
I'm all for living a cleaner, tidier life and do not a problem with recycling and energy efficiency per se.

But I would like to know why we should all have to pay for cavity wall insulation when all new houses are built with cavity walls. Hmmmm?

As for this "Climate Change", is there no politician out there prepared to do a Canute (or however you want to spell it) and try to tell everyone that you cannot stop it? Broon is certainly an anagram of Cnùt but he just seems to want to cash in on the fear which has been artificially generated about it.

They've tried this fearmongering by way of Ozone Layer, Global Warming and now Climate Change.

Climate change is intangible and really represents the desperation behind the thinking. Geez, do these people really enjoy having us afraid of the dark as they tax us?
49

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 16:32:29
fred bloggs,Edinburgh 27/06/2009 15:32:06

"The ozone hole is gradually shrinking since CFCs were banned"

Why is it shrinking?

Magic?

I really would like to know.

50

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 16:40:53
fred bloggs,Edinburgh 27/06/2009 16:01:22

"Franko, are you one of the fossil fuel lobbyists?:"

If we eliminate Carbon Dioxide, will all the trees die?
51

seanie,

27/06/2009 16:47:50
Nobody's trying to eliminate Carbon Dioxide.

You might find the issue less confusing if you try paying attention.
52

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 16:54:56
seanie,27/06/2009 16:47:50

"Nobody's trying to eliminate Carbon Dioxide."

What are they trying to eliminate then?

I am confused.
53

seanie,

27/06/2009 16:57:36
I know you are.

54

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 16:59:41
seanie,27/06/2009 16:47:50

"Nobody's trying to eliminate Carbon Dioxide."

Should we be eliminating just "some" Carbon Dioxide?


55

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 17:00:43
seanie,27/06/2009 16:47:50

"Nobody's trying to eliminate Carbon Dioxide."

Someone is!!!
56

seanie,

27/06/2009 17:02:26
No. There's no eliminating involved.

There's just trying to reduce the amount of carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere through the use of fossil fuels, in order to limit the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, in order to limit the increase in average global temperature we're already committed to.
57

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 17:06:24
seanie,27/06/2009 16:47:50

"There's no eliminating involved."

Perhaps you can explain how Carbon Dioxide affects the atmosphere if Carbon Dioxide is heavier than air.


58

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 17:09:05
seanie,27/06/2009 17:02:26

"No. There's no eliminating involved."

What is the relationship between the "hole" in the ozone layer and Carbon Dioxide?

59

seanie,

27/06/2009 17:10:26
Carbon Dioxide is a component of air. One that is well mixed throughout the atmosphere. Weight is of little relevance.
60

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 17:13:48
seanie,27/06/2009 17:10:26

"Carbon Dioxide is a component of air. One that is well mixed throughout the atmosphere. Weight is of little relevance."

How do Carbon Dioxide fire extinguishers work if weight is of little relevance?
61

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 17:19:28
Lets get back to:-

"The ozone hole is gradually shrinking since CFCs were banned"

Why is it shrinking?

Magic?

62

seanie,

27/06/2009 17:22:33
You think Carbon Dioxide fire extinguishers work because of the weight of Carbon Dioxide?

Heh, heh, heh...

I don't think any attempts to enlighten you will bear much fruit.
63

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 17:23:08
seanie,!!

"The ozone hole is gradually shrinking since CFCs were banned."

Perhaps you could explain how the ozone hole appeared over the south pole.

I have often wondered how these "CFCs" created a "hole" above the most unpopulated place on this planet.

Why not above New York or London or Johannesburg or any other large city?

64

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 17:24:05
45.Jock:

'the overall cause of ozone depletion is the presence of chlorine-containing source gases (primarily CFCs and related halocarbons). In the presence of UV light, these gases dissociate, releasing chlorine atoms, which then go on to catalyze ozone destruction. The Cl-catalyzed ozone depletion can take place in the gas phase, but it is dramatically enhanced in the presence of polar stratospheric clouds (PSCs).[16]

These polar stratospheric clouds form during winter, in the extreme cold. Polar winters are dark, consisting of 3 months without solar radiation.

Wikipedia
65

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 17:24:57
46. Jock:

'Insurers Claim Global Warming Makes Some Regions Too Hot to Handle'

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=insurers-claim-global-warming-makes-some-uninsurable
66

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 17:26:07
47. Jock:

The ozone hole has nothing to do with carbon dioxide and climate change.
67

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 17:26:17
seanie,27/06/2009 17:22:33

"You think Carbon Dioxide fire extinguishers work because of the weight of Carbon Dioxide?"

No! Carbon Dioxide starves fire of oxygen.
68

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 17:27:26
49. Jock:

It's complicated, you need to read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion#The_ozone_hole_and_its_causes
69

seanie,

27/06/2009 17:29:52
"No! Carbon Dioxide starves fire of oxygen."

Well done.

And the weight of Carbon Dioxide is relevant how exactly?
70

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 17:30:23
fred bloggs,Edinburgh 27/06/2009 17:26:07
47. Jock:

"The ozone hole has nothing to do with carbon dioxide and climate change."

What was this hole all about then?
71

Geomac 1,

Scotland 27/06/2009 17:33:55
#48 Jock

there are politicians starting to speak out against AGW/CC
try web site

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597505076157449.html
72

Jo'Burg Jock,

27/06/2009 17:34:18
seanie,27/06/2009 17:29:52

"And the weight of Carbon Dioxide is relevant how exactly?"

Try using your head, but not on the fire.

73

seanie,

27/06/2009 17:35:08
No. I'd rather you explain it.

It'll be funnier that way.
74

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 17:42:41
More on insurance claims and climate change from swiss-re.com:

Selected conclusions
Increasing catastrophe losses

The property insurance loss burden has been rising mainly due to:

* rising values owing to general economic growth
* increasing value concentrations in coastal regions and other particularly exposed areas
* increasing insurance penetration
* increasing vulnerability of the insured goods, and
* climate change (anthropogenic as well as due to natural variability)

http://www.swissre.com/pws/about%20us/knowledge_expertise/top%20topics/understand%20the%20risk.html?contentIDR=fc245e0045617460bd8fff2ee2bd2155&useDefaultText=0&useDefaultDesc=0

75

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 17:44:32
70. Jock: see 68.
76

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 18:04:37
fred bloggs,Edinburgh 27/06/2009 17:42:41

The graph on your reference (Annual average wind loss for US mainland residential and commercial exposure (modeled)) shows fluctuations over 100 years. I note that the rise after 2000 is less than the peaks achieved in the 1930's.

Your "wikipedia" reference does not answer my question:-

"I have often wondered how these "CFCs" created a "hole" above the most unpopulated place on this planet.

Why not above New York or London or Johannesburg or any other large city?"

77

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 18:20:39
76. Jock:

The weather mixes and distributes the CFCs around the world, they don't stay fixed over their point of emission. As explained in the wiki extract the chemistry and climate over antarctica create the hole.
78

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 18:20:44
65 fred bloggs,Edinburgh 27/06/2009 17:24:57
Jock:

"Insurers Claim Global Warming Makes Some Regions Too Hot to Handle"

This reference of yours contains no insurance company references in itself - something like a "Daily Record" type of journalism, or even the "Scotsman". "A Source said so on and so forth".

Nothing tangible!
79

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 18:26:44
76. Jock:

As for the hurricanes, their numbers are low and therefore statistically the fluctuation in their occurrence is high. However, they do seem to be gaining in intensity. Also, the level of claims depend on where the hurricanes hit as well as their numbers.

Catastrophe claims from all causes are however rising inexoribly as the planet warms.
80

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 18:30:19
74. Jock:

My link at 74 is to one of the world's biggest insurers and they are clearly making a particular study of the effect of climate change on claims.
81

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 18:31:56
My 80 refers to your 78.
82

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 18:37:59
fred bloggs,Edinburgh 27/06/2009 18:20:39

"The weather mixes and distributes the CFCs around the world, they don't stay fixed over their point of emission."

That is not what your reference says. It mentions "the polar vortex traps and chills air"

But let's get back to the ozone layer.

42 "The ozone hole is gradually shrinking since CFCs were banned."

Where is this ozone coming from?

83

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 18:46:52
fred bloggs,Edinburgh 27/06/2009 18:26:44

"As for the hurricanes, their numbers are low"

in relation to what?

"However, they do seem to be gaining in intensity"

"SEEM TO BE"? Well are they or aren't they?

"the level of claims depend on where the hurricanes hit as well as their numbers."

Yea like the value of the property depending on "where the hurricanes hit".

Hardly scientific, is it.

And as for quoting from the insurance industry, well, I leave that to your own judgement.

84

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 19:00:23
'The unusually active hurricane seasons of 2004 and 2005 have spurred considerable research into the question of whether more intense tropical cyclones are correlated with natural cycles, global warming, or some other cause. The new study indicates that natural cycles are probably not the entire cause because the increase has happened across the last century rather than oscillating in tandem with a natural cycle.'

nasa
85

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 19:01:25
'About twice as many Atlantic hurricanes form each year on average than a century ago, according to a new statistical analysis of hurricanes and tropical storms in the north Atlantic. The study concludes that warmer sea surface temperatures (SSTs) and altered wind patterns associated with global climate change are fueling much of the increase.'

nasa
86

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 19:05:15
Jock:

You don't like that I use the insurance industry to obtain figures on weather-related damage claims.

Should I be using the fossil fuel industry?
87

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 19:08:56
Jock:

You ridicule that I point out that the damage caused and therefore claims amount depends on where a hurricane strikes.

Try saying that to the residents and former residents of New Orleans.
88

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 19:11:53
85 fred bloggs,Edinburgh 27/06/2009 19:01:25

"About twice as many Atlantic hurricanes form each year on average than a century ago"

From your post at 79

"As for the hurricanes, their numbers are low"

Now which is it?

For Pete's sake let's get back to the subject.

Let me start :- Man Made Global Warming Is Nonsense!!

89

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 19:14:07
Jock:

'"As for the hurricanes, their numbers are low"

in relation to what?


"In Hartford, Hereford and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen"

- My Fair Lady
90

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 27/06/2009 19:14:34
Thank you and good night.
91

Geomac 1,

Kinross 27/06/2009 19:17:18
#80 Fred

Of course insurance companies would
"My link at 74 is to one of the world's biggest insurers and they are clearly making a particular study of the effect of climate change on claims." It's in their financial interest - as an excuse to increase premiums!!
92

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 19:21:04
fred bloggs,Edinburgh 27/06/2009 19:08:56

"Try saying that to the residents and former residents of New Orleans."

Freddy, It was not my intention to ridicule.
I was heart sick at the plight of those poor people in New Orleans, but wasn't their tragedies heightened by the poor design of the levy system?

93

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 27/06/2009 19:23:36
fred bloggs,Edinburgh 27/06/2009 19:14:07

"In Hartford, Hereford and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen"

Nice One.

All the Best.

94

eyeswider,

27/06/2009 19:24:40
fred is off to dream up 10 impossible things before breakfast.

Like "CO2 lasts in the atmosphere for 100s of years"

and

"The CO2 levels will drop during this depression."

I have taken liberties with the actual quotes but I couldn't be bothered dredging up any more of the sedimentary rocks the green monsters call brains.

95

Conan the Librarian™,

27/06/2009 20:52:38
32
Hi Fairfax.
I've got a south facing slope of a garden...
96

Jim P,

27/06/2009 21:20:12

" Living conditions for our grandchildren could be unbearable, with flooding, heatwaves and droughts. "

Scare yer sons, scare yer dochters!
97

Fitba Krazy,

27/06/2009 22:19:50
Aye, ye could always head to Greenland for the grape-picking season, right enough, and go for a wee sail in the warm breeze across to Canada to visit the abundant orange groves and banana plantations as a last resort.
98

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 27/06/2009 22:22:51
71, Geomac 1. thank you.

Interesting link.
99

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 27/06/2009 22:25:06
CO2 levels will drop very shortly. Hold your breath, folks.
100

seanie,

27/06/2009 23:22:37
I'm still waiting to hear how the weight of Carbon Dioxide makes fire extinguishers work.

I could do with a good laugh.
101

dhu loch,

Inveraray 27/06/2009 23:51:54
Ozone is formed when ultra violet light turns stable Oxygen(O2) into unstable Ozone(O3).The reason it happens at the poles is because its dark in the winter.
102

Incandescent,

28/06/2009 04:33:18
Slioch and Seanie

Shut up. Both of you. This board is for people to discuss issues, not for employees of the eco-industry to paste endless "facts".
103

Jo'Burg Jock,

Soth Africa 28/06/2009 06:21:37
seanie,27/06/2009 17:10:26

"Carbon Dioxide is a component of air. One that is well mixed throughout the atmosphere. Weight is of little relevance."

"WEIGHT IS OF LITTLE RELEVANCE"

You gave everyone a laugh with that!

"seanie's world" where gravity doesn't exist.

104

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 28/06/2009 06:46:24
seanie,27/06/2009 23:22:37

"I'm still waiting to hear how the weight of Carbon Dioxide makes fire extinguishers work."

Try this

http://www.lenntech.com/carbon-dioxide.htm

It states:-

"Carbon dioxide can blanket a fire, because of its heaviness. It prevents oxygen from getting to the fire and as a result, the burning material is deprived of the oxygen it needs to continue burning."

Please try and understand that gravity was discovered some time ago.
105

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 08:08:30
Satellite measurements confirm that CO2 is well mixed throughout the atmosphere.

The average CO2 molecule does spend only a few years in the atmosphere, giving that 2-3 year residence time you cite. But effective residence time is much longer because of the equlibrium (or near equlibrium) between surface ocean and atmosphere and biosphere and atmosphere. The residence time of a CO2 molecule in the surface ocean is nearly as short as in the atmosphere, so many of the molecules that go in come right back out! So the effectie residence time of the combined system is what is important, and that is more onthe order of hundreds of years — or indeed, thousands, if we are talking about the residence time inthe combined surface ocean/atmophere/biosphere, vs. the deep ocean.–eric]

- realclimate
106

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 08:18:30
105 cont:

Although the residence time for a single CO2 molecule may be only a few years, what is important is that even if man stopped all emissions it would take hundreds of years for the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere would to return to pre-industrial levels.
107

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 28/06/2009 09:11:34
From:-

The National Center for Public Policy Research
501 Capitol Court, N.E.
Washington, D.C. 20002

The full report is found at:-

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA334.html

"Carbon dioxide is good for the environment."

"Indeed, far from being a poisonous gas that will wreak havoc on the planet's ecosystem, carbon dioxide is arguably the Earth's best friend in that trees, wheat, peanuts, flowers, cotton and numerous other plants significantly benefit from increased levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide."

"Another benefit of enhanced atmospheric carbon dioxide is that it helps the tropical rainforests. Scientists from Venezuela and the United Kingdom grew several species of tropical trees and other plants in greenhouse conditions at carbon dioxide concentrations double the current level. The plants responded favorably, showing an increase in photosynthetic activity. The scientists concluded that, "In a future atmosphere with a higher carbon dioxide concentration, these species should be able to show a higher productivity than today.""

This makes sense (remember photosynthesis from school).

The Guff that you are quoting is alarmist nonsense.

108

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 28/06/2009 09:23:27
From The National Center for Public Policy Research:-

"Another benefit of enhanced atmospheric carbon dioxide is that it helps the tropical rainforests."

This sentence alone kills off the alarmists' claim to be concerned about the planet.

The sentence MAKES SENSE.

The notion that too much carbon dioxide is bad contradicts the whole eco alarmists' case.



109

seanie,

28/06/2009 09:55:13
If Carbon Dioxide is so heavy, why bother putting it into extinguishers.

Surely they could just leave it in a bucket in the corner of the room.

heh, heh, heh....
110

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 10:00:59
Ha! Joburg Jock shows his true colours with a quote from a notorious US right wing 'think tank' that takes money from the oil industry to disseminated lies and propaganda about climate change and utter nonsense on CO2.

No point engaging in dialog with a petrol head zealot.
111

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 10:13:29
'Symptoms of high or prolonged exposure to carbon dioxide include headache, increased heart rate, dizziness, fatigue, rapid breathing, visual and hearing dysfunctions. Exposure to higher levels may cause unconsciousness or death within minutes of exposure.'

112

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 28/06/2009 10:19:49
59 seanie,

"WEIGHT IS OF LITTLE RELEVANCE"

Seanie has declared a new maxim on the laws of physics and suggests "just leave it in a bucket in the corner of the room".

Seanie, the very fact that you support this "man made global warming" nonsense is enough to drive any sane individual into the opposite camp.

113

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 28/06/2009 10:25:33
111 fred bloggs,Edinburgh 28/06/2009 10:13:29

"Symptoms of high or prolonged exposure to carbon dioxide"


That's OK Freddie boy. Keep this up. We'll all be hiding in bunkers next.

You are just proving yourself as an excellent top rate ALARMIST.

114

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 10:52:10
112.

If the 'weight' (i.e. density) of CO2 is of relevance how come we all don't suffocate while trying to walk around in the ground level layer unable to reach the higher layer of life-supporting O2?

(I know the answer but Joburg Jock doesn't)
115

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 28/06/2009 11:04:57
114

Oh go on, tell us all what you learned on "Yahoo".

116

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 11:09:16
107. 'Carbon dioxide is good for the environment'

Well, yes and no. It does of course play a crucial role in photosynthesis and at increased levels can enhance plant growth. Unfortunately the role that CO2 plays in the natural greenhouse effect - keeping the temperature of the atmosphere at a nice 14C - begins to cause havoc when human activities increase the concentration and enhance the greenhouse effect. The resulting changes in climate are beginning to have deleterious effects on both plant and animal life.
117

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 11:16:18
115. The CO2 is mixed because it is heated by absorbing infrared radiated upwards from the earth's surface. This heat is passed on to surrounding molecules of O2 and N2 reducing the density of the air and causing convection. That convection is at the heart of weather systems causing low pressure areas and winds which further help to mix and distribute all the molecules (good and bad) in the atmosphere.
118

Richard Lionheart,

28/06/2009 11:25:47
3 months ago the met office predicted the hottest summer of the Century!

Heat wave I believe.

Shame they forgot to predict the hot rain!

Should we rely on their predictions for 2080? We can’t even rely on their predictions for 20.10
119

Richard Lionheart,

28/06/2009 11:30:02
Al Gore will be raking it in.

Makoff and his pals will be wishing they had backed this "horse".
120

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 28/06/2009 11:55:09
Post 11

"There are more natural disasters than ever before"

Various groups looking for something to somehow "prove" their (usually bizarre) ideology have been spouting this line since the beginning of time.

In the past it was religious nutters.

Their claims have now been taken up by the modern "Alarmist".

I remember the "tongue in cheek" explanation of:-

"Aye, it's they Russians and their satellites that's causing this, Ahm tellin ye."

No matter where you go in history, it has always been the perception that the weather pattern "is not what it was".

Of course it is not what it used to be. That is just the nature of the beast.

What I find incredible, is the way massive quantities of money are being spent proving that "The sky is falling".

How many times have you heard the ludicrous phrase "As sea levels continue to rise".

Why haven't all those little (Low lying) islands in the Indian Ocean or even the Pacific NOT started to disappear?

It is because the sea is not rising, and that's all there is to it.

I wish the Russians would start launching satellites again. That was more plausible.

121

Martyk,

28/06/2009 12:09:10
Ozone is produced in the atmosphere by lightning strikes , of which there are hundreds worldwide per second , converting oxygen to ozone. I know this because in my job we manufacture ozone to use as a de-stenching agent for gas cylinders. We pass pure oxygen through an electric current. Never heard of the ultra violet thing but I am not a scientist just a techie.
122

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 28/06/2009 12:22:13
Martyk,28/06/2009 12:09:10

Marty, perhaps you could explain to seanie at 109, why you don't keep gases in buckets.

On second thought, don't bother - he might hurt himself with all that thinking.

123

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 12:55:21
120: 'The sea is not rising' Really?

Well get this:

Anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases continue unabated.

The atmospheric concentrations of the longlived greenhouse gases continue to rise.

The latter enhance the natural greenhouse effect.

Hence global temperatures are continuing to rise.

As a consequence sea temperatures are rising.

Water expands when heated.

Therefore sea levels are rising.

Glaciers are melting

Ice caps are shrinking.

Melted ice from glaciers and ice caps on land goes into the sea.

The sea rises even more.

As ice melts the surface darkens and absorbs even more radiation - a feedback that accelerates the warming.

It's not that difficult to understand is it?

124

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 28/06/2009 13:13:06
fred bloggs,Edinburgh 28/06/2009 12:55:21


Wow! sounded very scientific,

looks so rational when you put it like that, but it still amounts to a pile of bull'.

125

dhu loch,

inveraray 28/06/2009 13:28:06
121
Ozone is a health problem in the printing and coating industry where Inks and coatings are cured under Ultra Violet lamps.The resultig ozone is produced as in the atmosphere by Oxygen(O2) being temperarily broken down to Ozone(O3),it is this unstable and reactive stage that is a threat to human health.Extraction units are fitted to the printing or coating machines to protect the operators.
126

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 13:35:43
124. Why is it 'a pile of bull'.

Either the science is right or not. If it is not you need to explain why.

Or maybe you don't understand the science?

It is common for people to rubbish things they don't understand. Is this you?

Please reply, I'm worried about your state of mind.
127

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 28/06/2009 13:52:42
126 fred bloggs,Edinburgh 28/06/2009 13:35:43

The first four lines are conjecture.

Thus:-

"Anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases continue unabated.

The atmospheric concentrations of the longlived greenhouse gases continue to rise.

The latter enhance the natural greenhouse effect.

Hence global temperatures are continuing to rise."

If the premises are unsound then the conclusions are unsound and thus are suspect.

Therefore there is no science involved.

I said that it sounded very scientific, I didn't say it was scientific.

The rise in global temperatures may be due to the sun's activity, which has been talked about in many other circles.

Therefore your 4th line is particularly suspect.

128

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 28/06/2009 14:22:57
127.

No the first two are observations i.e. hard incontrovertible data, the next two are accepted science to all but the denialists of which you are, sadly, one.

End of transmission, over and out...
129

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 28/06/2009 14:32:41
fred bloggs,Edinburgh 28/06/2009 14:22:57

Oh Well!

I'm off to light the braai (barbecue). I want to feed the trees with some lovely CO2.

Freddy boy! would you recommend logs or charcoal?

All The Best

130

seanie,

28/06/2009 16:22:56
The reason we don't keep CO2 in buckets is the same reason gravity is of little relevance when discussing CO2 in the atmosphere.


 

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