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Published Date: 23 May 2009
ELEVENTH-hour talks aimed at avoiding a cataclysmic split in the Church of Scotland were taking place last night, as the Kirk sought to find a compromise over the appointment of openly gay ministers.
With hours to go before a debate that could define the future of the Kirk, senior clergy were working behind the scenes to avoid a damaging schism between hardliners and liberals.

A decision on the appointment of openly homosexual Scott Rennie as minister of Queen's Cross Church in Aberdeen will be taken at the General Assembly, the Kirk's supreme body, this evening.

But The Scotsman has learned that motions – called overtures – are being drawn up that propose delaying a final decision on the Kirk's overall position on gay ministers for two years.

"People are scrambling to find some middle road on this," one member said.

Many believe such a deferral is necessary to avoid the biggest split in the Church since the Disruption of 1843, which led to the formation of the Free Church of Scotland. The sensitivity of the issue was clear last night, after the Kirk confirmed it would not be broadcasting the Rennie hearing on its website, even though all other debates have been available to the public. A spokesman said the reason was that the assembly would be acting as a court.

The Rev Ruairidh MacRae, of the pro-gay evangelical group Courage Scotland, said the move was disappointing and contrary to the Kirk's efforts to be open and transparent.

The General Assembly will meet from 6:30pm to hear a complaint against Mr Rennie's appointment.

It will also hear a motion from the Presbytery of Lochcarron-Skye to prevent the Kirk from appointing or ordaining any more openly gay ministers.

The debate and hearing, expected to continue into the early hours of tomorrow, will be the culmination of a tumultuous period in the Church's history.

Since the beginning of the year, when 12 evangelical members of the Presbytery of Aberdeen complained about the appointment of Mr Rennie, the controversy has grown. An online petition against the appointment has received more than 12,000 signatures.

However, as the court hearing approached, one Kirk source close to the evangelical wing said members were desperate to find a way to avoid a split.

"We need to limit the damage," he said. "But I think that if there was any attempt to place pressure on evangelical members to accept this by those in authority, there would be a danger it would blow up in their face.

"The Kirk is just not used to this amount of attention. You can see that they are looking for a measured debate."

One motion put forward by the Rev Dr John McPake, of East Kilbride, proposes that a commission be set up to carry out a study on the issues surrounding homosexual clergy, which would not report back for two years. It would also place a moratorium on "all courts, councils and committees of the Church" making any comments on the issue until the report is produced, effectively gagging them.

Evangelicals have voiced disquiet at such a motion and the suggestion that they would be barred from preaching about it in church.

But the evangelical source said: "There are ways in which it could be massaged and changed to make it work. John McPake is quite confident. He thinks he's going to be the knight on the white horse by pushing this on for two years."

However, a liberal member of the clergy said there was already another counter-motion on the cards. "There was a form of words being put together that takes a different slant on the existing counter-motion," he said. "So the McPake motion will not be the only thing on offer.

"There will undoubtedly be moves to amend the wording of both of them. It's all about trying to give some people more options and to give the General Assembly some space to think about this. It's only natural we try to find the best way through – it's what people want."

But a senior Kirk member said while a further report might be a "legitimate and proper" way of dealing with the issue, it was unlikely members of Lochcarron-Skye presbytery would be satisfied unless they received a proper answer to their motion.

Though the evangelical wing has played down the likelihood of any immediate physical split from the Kirk, it has been acknowledged that the gay issue could speed up the drift of members from the Church.


The full article contains 760 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 May 2009 12:56 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Church of Scotland
 
1

Observer,,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 00:14:19
The Kirk has faced cataclysmic decisions before - like the ordination of women - and survived. At the end of the day the congregation at Queens Cross want this Minister - he isn't being imposed on them. I could understand this furore if an openly gay Minister was being imposed on a congregation that didn't want him - but that isn't the case.

Sooner or later the Kirk - and others - are going to have to catch up with the reality that the rest of us have. It is no longer a sin to be gay. It is no longer a crime. It is no longer something to be ashamed of. It's normal.
2

Observer,,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 00:18:17
2 Most anti-gay Christians cite Leviticus as justification for their views (there is NOTHING in the Gospels to say that Christ had any view on homosexuality at all). Leviticus also tells us it is OK to stone children to death. I don't think every passage of the Bible is meant to be taken literally.
3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 00:23:33


Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 00:25:16


1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.


5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 00:36:18


John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.


6

BIG EYE,

Paisley 23/05/2009 00:42:22
The bottom line is simply this.

The Presbyterian Church was a creation of a desire that local, ordinary people could follow their personal faith with decisions made on a local basis by local folk. It was this strength that created the Church of Scotland.

I am not comfortable with their decision but the congregation of this church has made the democratic decision to call this minister to this charge and it should be respected.

This does not mean it is right but it is a fundamental tenet of this faith that local decisions matter.

That is what having no "bosses" in the Church means.

It is also a fundamental reason why the Church has many adherents today, particularly including people like me who have despaired about many of the positions the church has adopted in the last twenty years in order to appear "politically correct".

I have lost a lot of respect for the Church of Scotland for their actions in the last two decades and as previously mentioned I would have not voted in favour of this particular minister HOWEVER it is the right of this congregation to pick their own minister and in my view that is paramount in this debate.
7

Fifi la Bonbon,

23/05/2009 00:46:24
What would Jesus do?
8

Fifi la Bonbon,

23/05/2009 00:47:09
And what would the Pope do?
9

BIG EYE,

Paisley 23/05/2009 01:59:54
Sorry to disappoint you Fifi but I find it highly unlikely he would have been in favour of the Union and might well have compared Westmidden with the moneylenders!
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 02:08:43

re: comments @#3/4/5, and there may be more! :)

You may think me very religious, maybe I am, Maybe it is further from the truth, I really do not know, I do not go to the Church on Sundays, but I will quote happily, walk into a Church-of-Scotland, or a Catholic-Church, to pay my respects, it maybe for my self, or at a visitors request, it is being understanding both to others, and self at times.

What strikes me as in the "Gay" Issue, this is not one of understanding!, as in the love for one another.

It is being throat as an 'Lust' Issue, which to me it clearly is not!

Any "Gays", I have come across have high respect for their partner, and one of Love.

re:, The Bible tells us to Love!

(just my view on Issue)

11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 02:17:44

re: #10, use of word "throat"

? stick in one’s throat to be hard to accept, his arrogance really sticks in my throat,
Old English throtu
12

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 23/05/2009 02:38:21
This minister has been properly called by the congregation of Queens Cross. There are many procedures involved in calling a minister and I am sure all the procedures have been properlly followed. i also understand he is already in a charge elsewahere. if he is properly a minister there the congregation is entitled to have him as their minister. he is not breaking the law. The Presbytery of Aberdeen should proceed with his indusction. It any member of the congregation do not want him there are plenty other churches in Aberdeen they can shift their lines to. If there are those in the Church of Scotland unhappy let them join some intolerant denomination. I am sure the Wee Frees will welcome them with open arms.
13

The Creature from the Black Lagoon,

23/05/2009 05:47:57
It is good to see that Wardog still has a chance of being a man of the cloth.
14

Alastair M,

Amsterdam 23/05/2009 06:13:43
Kicking this decision back into the long grass for 2 years would be the worst thing the Kirk could do. They've been sitting on the fence for quite long enough, and it's time they came down on one side or the other.

As was mentioned earlier, it is the right of local churches to appoint their ministers. The folk on Skye have no business interfering in something happening in Aberdeen.

If there's a split, then there's a split. If the price of unity is injustice, then it's not worth paying.
15

Phil C,

23/05/2009 06:24:13
Like Andy Warhol, I just wish that everyone would like everyone else.....or at least try to!

I'd love all churches to split, then reunite as one if they still feel the need for group conscience cleansing!
16

The Scot,

Singapore 23/05/2009 06:44:13
Homosexuality is clearly not normal. It is the result of a deficiency in the genes of individuals involved and, as with any other illness, a cure should be sought.

Notwithstanding that, for as long as a man or a woman preaches the love of God, he or she should not be prevented from holding the post of Church of Scotland Minister merely because of this illness. He or she should nevertheless not be allowed to use that position to promote homosexuality. Our Children should grow up knowing the difference between right and wrong; normal and abnormal; and certainly should not be educated to believe that homosexuality is normal.
17

jj veritas,

23/05/2009 07:10:46
The hard line politically correct lobby would insist that blind people be proportionally represented as bus drivers, and homosexuals as both Christian church ministers and Muslim Imams.

Why just choose the easy targets first? Get better leaders who would fight equally hard for the tough targets. Help the blind and the Muslims too.
18

RDavis,

Vienna 23/05/2009 07:14:54
I thought Singaporean society were enlightened? How stupid of me to think so, as long as bigoted & ignorant Scots are allowed to travel abroad, stupid and ignorant views such as those of #16 will always exist.
19

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 23/05/2009 07:27:12
#18
There is nothing wrong with the views of #16
The church has a simple answer - Don't appoint a homosexual, poofery is a sin according to the church and is certainly not normal.
20

Robert Bonaly,

East Lothian 23/05/2009 07:30:01
#18 - well said #16 as I am sick and tired of the gay lobby always seeming to be so right about everything you can mention. Bottom line is if we all end up gay, mankind will eventually no longer exist and of course God would want that wouldn't he !?!?!?!? If the church does allow this situation then we have no hope quite frankly and I will be resigning and removing my financial support immediately. A stand has to be taken and folk like #18 need to go some place else and become righteous and pieous with their own kind,as I am sick and tired of them. I am a decent human being, in spite of what #18 will no doubt think, but enough is enough and I hate being told I am not because I hold my own personal views on this issue. So #18 you see it is not just Scots who travel abroad who are an issue, so please refrain from thinking so you complete clown
21

Ham Mei Si,

Hong Kong 23/05/2009 07:53:26
It is all down to the mystery of the unknown! Well lets face it!...The Minister- Teacher- Court Judge- Policeman- Scoutmaster ..et al... They are all normal, male & female, and since I was a little boy I have listened to them all with respect and good manners because I trust them!
Suddenly they are all homosexual! So what am I expected to think now?
I am not homosexual. I have no interest in homosexuality. And I do not particularly want to associate with homosexuals, since we have nothing in common! I do not hate homosexual men nor women! But I wonder where the homosexuals minds are heading! Nearly all heterosexual people say that homosexuals are not normal! But now they hold positions in society (As Above)....Now what? Homosexuals are the new leaders of the Country! They now say what is right & what is wrong!
Thankfully I was brought up in Aberdeen in an age when everybody was normal! What about you!
22

Cnoc,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 07:57:02

Today I will be praying for Christ's Church in Scotland today. I pray that those who love the Lord Jesus, and the cause of reformed religion, will speak with truth, love and compassion. Sometimes in Church life there comes a time to separate, so it was with Peter and Paul, with Wesley and Whitefield, and perhaps now is the time for the same with the divisions in the Church of Scotland. The promise, of course, is that the Lord promises to blesss those faithful to him with his presence, his power and his promise. Be strong, and courageous.

Sola Scriptura.
23

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 08:10:08
Anyone asked Scott? What is this... The Inquisition? Your church is Dead. May your god have mercy on its soul.
24

Pocket Dictionary,

23/05/2009 08:11:08
*
Most contributors are referring to Leviticus and the contradiction of condemning Gays and wearing clothes of mixed fibres. I'm surprised no one has brought in Romans 1:27 as the New Testament proof text for condemning Gays.

Be aware if you do, because in 1:29, it also condemns the greedy, the hateful, the gossipers, the deceivers, general trouble makers etc.

In a nutshell, no one is fit to be a minister, Gay or otherwise, traditionalist or conservative. Did Jesus not say, get your own house in order before you poke your nose into someone else's?

And remember when you are pointing the finger at someone else, there's another four pointing back at you.
*
25

W Smith,

Middle East 23/05/2009 08:17:05
Much to do about nothing.

Hetrosexual church goers will vote with their feet at the end of the day despite The Scotsman deleting comments that don't fit with their pro-gay ideology.

The C of S has been in decline for decades now, not because of fundamentlism but all sorts of liberal and so-called radical teaching.

They invite you to church on Sunday so they can teach you how not to believe.

We can stay in bed on a Sunday and not believe - thanks anyway!

The 'sell-home-made-cakes-on-a-Sunday-after-service' in the vestry to save Africa and give ourselves some street credibility approach was a complete and absolute failure and this pro-gay stand will not stop the Church of Scotland going into a tail spin.

Good riddance.
26

Brideun,

Culloden 23/05/2009 08:24:44
I note that if anyone disagrees with a far left view he/she is labeled as hard right. The homosexual lobby has for years been promoting the acceptance of their way of life, firstly by changing the term sodomist to gay, next to increasingly with the use of the media to show an abnormal way of life as normal.
I do however realise that homosexuals are what they are, but I cannot accept the flaunting behaviour infiltrating all levels of society. The majority of people view 'gay' behaviour with distaste but there are limits.
27

chooseyethisday,

Australia 23/05/2009 08:29:36
Uniting church Australia is in the midst of the same argument. They, however, are lobbying for practicing gays,lesbians,transexuals,transgenders, and bisexuals all to be accepted as ministers and leaders in the church.
28

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 08:31:27
#22 Cnoc

I think you're in for a bit of a shock matey, if you think you're going to be admitted to God's house with a heart as obviously twisted as your's. I'm agnostic, but I've read enough about a man who may have existed, Jesus Christ, to know that, if he did, he would not have supported the views of so many on here. Who next to be expelled from the Church of Scotland because they weren't born 'normal', as Nature intended? The blind? The deaf? Those with Down's Syndrome? Dwarves? Shocking hypocrisy from so many. Why not just admit it, you don't like gay people.
29

Jmhzx,

brighton 23/05/2009 08:31:53
But what about the children?

Please! Won't somebody think about the children?
30

Boy Wonder,

23/05/2009 08:36:36
Passages of the Bible, like most ancient writings, were formed from ideas prevalent when tribes were growing into nations and the Elders demanded more children for their new armies and societies. Anything that was different to that, ran counter to their wishes and so non-productive homosexual people became anathema to them.
That's the origins. No-one would see it as Nature's answer to over-population for a long time. Some still don't.
Man is a pansexual creature! You can't deny that!
It is only opinion that makes it a wrong or even criminal behaviour.
God, being a man-made entity, will reflect only what its priests want it to seem to say.

A lot of fuss over nothing ... but if it happens ... I'm happy to see religion disappear off the face of the Earth.
31

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 08:40:19
Thank you #29. Voice of reason. I have to say I've never seen such a collection of vile, ill-informed homophobic outbursts! Its about time churches took a stand against these militant religionists.
32

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 08:42:53
#30

I presume you mean the children of Church of Scotland will now be vulnerable to the evil propaganda of preditory pooves? Aye, right. Like the children of Ireland and elsewhere across the World were safe in the hands of the oh so heterosexual men AND WOMEN of the Roman Catholic Church? A person is a good influence on children depending on what they good they do in the world, not what they get up to in the sack.
33

Garry Otton,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 08:42:58
#30 What about the children? What do you want them to do, love... Lock up the priests?
34

Ulster Protestant,

23/05/2009 08:47:06
The fact is that the Church of Scotland has long departed from the Biblical Truth in Doctrine and practice decades ago. Toleration of sodomites is the latest in a long list of departures from Biblical Truth. Man may have views on matters, but "What sayeth the Scriptures?" What does God say on the matter? The very fact that the term "gay" is used, is downright shocking. THat is a euphamism that Sodomites have hijacked, and should never be attributed to creatures of reprobate mind.
35

scorchio,

West of the PEcos 23/05/2009 08:48:10
It's pretty clear to me, that the Church of Scotland's dillemma is a socil one and not a religious one.
Through out the bible it is made perfectly clear that sexual activity is to be kept within the bounds of marriage.
Marriage being the union between two people of opposite gender.
This nonsense about stoning children and etc. is used by those who do not recognise the refining change from the Law of Moses, to the Higher Law, which Christ instituted.
To the woman taken in adultery, and about to be stoned, he taught the principle of forgiveness...but made it clear she was to sin no more.
I have spoken to a few ministers in the Kirk who don't believe in the miracles, the ressurection, or the virgin birth.
I wonder how they can have an opinion on this?
A man who turned his back on a wife and child to become sexualy active with a man or a woman, out of wedlock, seems to me, to be an unlikely example of the person Christ would want to represent his purposes.
36

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 08:56:57
#35 Ulster Protestant

I take it you never, ever, do any work on a Sunday? I take it you follow your beloved Scriptures to the absolute letter? Because, if you do, you'll be doiong some things that are considered very odd in this day and age. I really don't mind if you say you don't like gay people. Some of the gay lifestyle I think is quite distasteful myself, but like everyone else, gay people lead all sorts of different lifestyles. It's the absolute hypocrisy of people like you that is quite stunning. If you don't like gay people per se, have the guts to say it. Don't jusitify your bigotry behind the teachings of a book I bet you don't really follow.
37

Garry Otton,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 08:58:37
#35; 36 et al. Had Scott not been faced with the frank hypocrisy of Pik n Mix religious militants, perhaps he wouldn't have married in the first place. Jesus hung around with men, never married (in fact said it wasn't for everybody) and the gospels refer some 8 times to the disciple he loved: John. What makes you so sure he was straight... Your own bigotry perhaps?
38

Media at One,

23/05/2009 09:00:35
The problem with religion is that none of the believers know what to believe. Their god has deserted them, apparently he runs the show but never pops down to offer them guidance on issues they find impossible to agree upon. In the end they fight like children about issues they know little about, they ruin lives, they sentence homosexuals and then they begin their marketing and PR excercises to win some clients.
Churches, whether Protestant, Catholic, Jewish or Islamic are an absolute disgrace - the day they are banned will be the day the human race moves towards a sense of peace, freedom, love and harmony.
39

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 09:02:01
#36 Scorchio

Let's just hope the good Lord doesn't take it upon Himself to clear the pews of the Kirk of those who are indulging or have indulged in out of wedlock sex or adultery. They'll be even emptier than they are now.
40

,

23/05/2009 09:11:08
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41

Geoff,

sa 23/05/2009 09:14:02
The finger is a bit of a giveaway.
42

,

23/05/2009 09:19:22
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43

Media at One,

23/05/2009 09:23:50
Exiled Scot
Homosexuality is ABSOLUTELY normal - how can you say it isnt?
44

Ulster Protestant,

23/05/2009 09:24:34
*37 - two points.

Firstly, Sunday as you call it, or the Christian Sabbath is still kept by those that profess the true Christian religion. Interesting to note that the COS sell cakes after the service. The example of Jesus when he saw the money changers comes to mind.

I dont hate homosexuals. However, I loathe their practice, but they are in great need of repentance.

Lets stop judging by your standards. What sayeth the Scripture?
45

Media at One,

23/05/2009 09:26:32
Exiled

It is normal to the homosexual and therefore cannot be described as abnormal.
I have gay friends and all of them are normal -
46

,

23/05/2009 09:28:56
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47

,

23/05/2009 09:30:25
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48

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 09:34:15
#43 Exiled Scotsman

I think you're mistaking natural for normal. You can't argue that homosexuality isn't natural, it happens whether a person wants it or not. But it's not normal. Normal is the ability of a human being to be able to survive, to protect him/herself and to procreate. Clearly to be born with a huge barrier to the ability to procreate, i.e fancying the same gender, is like being born without the ability to see, hear or walk. It's natural but not the normality that Nature intended. If you see what I mean. Doesn't have any bearing on how good a person they are and doesn't mean they shoudn't be treated the same as anyone else.
49

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 09:34:54
#45 Star prize for this contribution!
Sodomy. For the benefit of #35 had laws introduced to combat it in the 1100s by the Council of London. More to stop men poking sheep than other men, all of which didn't appear to see it as much of a problem prior to this edict. Today, sodomy is the preserve of mostly straight men and religious militants like #35, the latter who've taken it upon themselves to assume all gay men do it. The majority of men who purely identify as gay do not. Taking it up the jacksee is not my most preferred method although I still say I'm a 'bottom'. Gay sex is way more diverse than some of these posters would have us believe. And as for all the straights who've tried a tighter hole (their missus if not some m/f online quickie)... I don't think the Kirk can afford to clear its pews (or pulpits) of you. That's my Thought For The Day!
50

,

23/05/2009 09:35:33
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51

Media at One,

23/05/2009 09:39:13
Draco -
But in 40 years when sex is no longer required and cloning is the normal way to create life - what then? Will being gay be normal then? After all, they will be able to look after themselves, they will be able to create life and thus by your arguement must be normal.
So where does that leave us? I mean after all, what is normal?
52

Fred Leeson,

edinburgh 23/05/2009 09:45:14
I don't understand why people believe in sky fairies. And why they get taken seriously.
But if the church does believe that God made us all then surely he made people gay, bi sexual, murderers, black, white , yellow. paedo priests etc.
And so they shouldn't complain about what God has made.
53

,

23/05/2009 09:45:22
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54

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 09:46:09
#49 But it's not normal. Normal is the ability of a human being to be able to survive, to protect him/herself and to procreate.

And bisexuality? There are huge numbers of gay guys too who have kids! Most animals have sexual experiences involving the same sex. Normal. No animal apart from a minority of militant humans pulls some recently mis-translated fairy story and builds
a life round it.
55

Scottish Canadian,

ottawa canada 23/05/2009 09:46:15
Have you lot not learned anything from 300 years of religious intolerance? I grew up in the Presbyterian Church and even obtained a position of authority within it. I learned that this religion is the most arrogant, intolerant group to ever associate with a god.
The arguments above clearly indicate the depth to which hatred is ingrained in a "religious" practitioner.
My advice is to get out of this church before it's too late. Learn to tolerate others who are different from you. And read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.
Love others as yourself. I think some famous person said that...
56

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 09:51:37
Woops. I mean #43 gets the Star Prize for best contribution.
57

Darien,

Panama 23/05/2009 09:52:08
#20 Robert:"Bottom line is if we all end up gay, mankind will eventually no longer exist "

Absolutely spot on. Homosexuality is a pointless lustfull indulgence practiced by the confused (as explained by Gary #50). Some folks here confuse (Christian) love and sex; Christian love does not depend on sex. Love in the way Christ meant it has very little to do with sex. Homosexuality is unnatural, immoral, anti-Christ, and unproductive.

58

Black Five,

edinburgh 23/05/2009 09:54:42
What a load of tosh.The church should be more concerned about it`s dwindling congregations than over this.They should welcome all and sundry ,as there " chief " would.The church now is a dying breed and be lucky they`ve actually got a few gays.The days of religion is surely dying off as people come to realise it is all one big con.
59

,

23/05/2009 09:55:48
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60

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 09:57:53
#52 Media

You're doing ma heid!! And displaying the arrogance that has got Humankind to where it is, on the verge of self destruction by thinking it's cleverer than nature. No, strip away the science and humans are really no different from what we've evolved from and from the other animals and plants we share the planet with. If we ever have to go back to the absolute basics, if we can't provide food and water for ourselves, run faster from or beat our predators and beget little humans we're toast. That's the bottom line and the default of 'normal'. Possibly as 'God' intended, LOL.
61

,

23/05/2009 10:00:36
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62

,

23/05/2009 10:02:27
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63

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 10:09:41
#62 Exiled Scotsman

The trouble is, too many good people end up not breeding and the world is filled with the unfortunate children of those that Nature should really have prevented from doing so.
64

McGinty,

Glasgow & Aberdeen 23/05/2009 10:11:43
The Westminster Confession Of Faith, of which this is part is still held to by the Kirk, albeit loosely, as a guide to interpreting and understanding the Bible. It's a shame it hasn't been updated recently as it might have shed some light on this whole thing.

Of Marriage and Divorce

I. Marriage is to be between one man and one woman: neither is it lawful for any man to have more than one wife, nor for any woman to have more than one husband, at the same time.

II. Marriage was ordained for the mutual help of husband and wife, for the increase of mankind with a legitimate issue, and of the Church with an holy seed; and for preventing of uncleanness.

III. It is lawful for all sorts of people to marry, who are able with judgment to give their consent. Yet it is the duty of Christians to marry only in the Lord. And therefore such as profess the true reformed religion should not marry with infidels, papists, or other idolaters: neither should such as are godly be unequally yoked, by marrying with such as are notoriously wicked in their life, or maintain damnable heresies.

IV. Marriage ought not to be within the degrees of consanguinity or affinity forbidden by the Word. Nor can such incestuous marriages ever be made lawful by any law of man or consent of parties, so as those persons may live together as man and wife. The man may not marry any of his wife's kindred, nearer in blood then he may of his own: nor the woman of her husband's kindred, nearer in blood than of her own

V. Adultery or fornication committed after a contract, being detected before marriage, gives just occasion to the innocent party to dissolve that contract. In the case of adultery after marriage, it is lawful for the innocent party to sue out a divorce and, after the divorce, to marry another, as if the offending party were dead.

VI. Although the corruption of man be such as is apt to study arguments unduly to put asunder those whom God has joined together in marriage: yet, nothi
65

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23/05/2009 10:13:13
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66

McGinty,

Glasgow & Aberdeen 23/05/2009 10:15:08
nothing but adultery, or such wilful desertion as can no way be remedied by the Church, or civil magistrate, is cause sufficient of dissolving the bond of marriage: wherein, a public and orderly course of proceeding is to be observed; and the persons concerned in it not left to their own wills, and discretion, in their own case.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/
67

Darien,

Panama 23/05/2009 10:20:07
#62 Exiled Scotsman:

You appear to be saying that homosexuality is both natural and moral? I think you would struggle to find substantive evidence for either argument.

You don't care that homosexuality is anti-Christ. Then why bother about a debate between Christians?

You also don't care that homosexuality is unproductive yet, if we all became homosexual that would ultimately mean the end of the human race. On the positive side, at least that would mean there would be no more homosexuals, ultimately. Which does rather confirm that the continued existence of homosexuals is in fact dependent on the rest of us using our reproductive features in the way intended. Homosexuals are therefore selfish, as well as immoral, unproductive and anti-Christ.

There is a wee bit of Satan in many of us, but perhaps more so in the case of homosexuals - even so-called Christian homosexuals.
68

Stan Butler,

23/05/2009 10:27:05


I assume that Scott Rennie, and those who appointed him, will have known what effect his appointment would have on the Church of Scotland ie either a schism or wholesale resignations.

You have to wonder how they balanced their concern for the over all good of their Church with their own particular individual wants.
69

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 23/05/2009 10:27:29
This is not about whether a minister is a gay or not. It is about the right of a congregation to call a minister of its choosing, a right which our forefathers struggled in the 19th century to achieve.

The great Disruption of 1843 split the church on this point. It is ironic that it should now threaten to split once again on the ground that a congregation should no longer be free to call its own minister and that one presbytery should seek to overturn the actions of another.
70

Number 6,

Germany 23/05/2009 10:29:07
Surely all Churches must look to the future for survival. Yes, the decision to appoint a homosexual clergyman will cause concern to some, but surely not all parishoners.

Inviting homosexuals into the church could eventually raise congregations, and secure the future to.

Some homosexuals are obviously religious, but simply don't feel welcome in their God's various houses.
71

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 10:32:40
#68 Darien

It'd be such a delicious irony if one of your children or grandchildren were to come to you and say 'Dad/mum, I've something to tell you...' You might have that horrible, blck veil lifted from your eyes. And then again, you're probably the sort of virtuous 'Christian' who would cast out their own demon seed. You're all so nasty, Christ, if, as you clearly hope he's with you, will truly be sad.
72

Fifi la Bonbon,

23/05/2009 10:39:04
#58 - "Homosexuality is unnatural, immoral, anti-Christ, and unproductive." Did Jesus say that?

I looked but I honestly couldn't find any record of him saying any of that.

I did find some mention of divine disapproval in the Torah, at Leviticus. It has a lot of other things to say. Among those - well you're all such bible scholars that you already know what it says.

Men are supposed to get their willies snipped - I hope someone will be checking at the door of the General Assembly - perhaps some volunteers could stood by with a stanley knife and cotton wool to do the needful for any backsliders. Don't look at me - it's in the Bible - word of God.

The stewards runnning the General Assembly will need to check there are no menstruating women about. They are unclean and sinful, anthing that they touch is unclean, and anyone who touches anything that they touch is unclean. To comply with Leviticus, you need to stay completely away from them.

And under no circumstances will any decent Christian eat black pudding.

73

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 10:39:32
The Christian Bible states in the first letter to the Corinthians, chapter 16, verses 18 to 20:

'Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honour God with your body.'

This applies to all sexuality heterosexual or homosexual and is based on the predicate that a Holy God is not conditioned by human sociology.

Survival, (if that's what's at stake), is best served by adhering to the LORD not by our own constructs. Be generous and tolerant and, yes, love one another but also love the LORD your God. Otherwise have the courage to confess that the 'God' you serve is not the LORD God referred to in the Bible but some near-imitation.
74

Stan Butler,

23/05/2009 10:39:45


Is there a Darwinian/evolutionary explanation or rationale for homosexuality?

75

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 23/05/2009 10:44:35
It's illegal to discriminate on grounds of sexual orientation so this should be a no brainer however No gay is getting into heaven and probably no christian either. Your all doomed. Doomed I say!!!
76

Number 6,

Germany 23/05/2009 10:47:55
Is there any major World religion, that accepts homosexuality?
77

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23/05/2009 10:49:04
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Number 6,

Germany 23/05/2009 10:49:21
What is heaven exactly ?

Where is it ?

What happens there ?

Is it worth it ?
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23/05/2009 10:54:26
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80

johnwg,

London 23/05/2009 10:56:44
Jesus view of sex is that "a man shall leave his parents and be united with his wife and the two shall become one flesh" Sex within marriage is the Jesus/Bible requirement.Matt 19: 5-6. That first turns up in Genesis 2:24 - it is a thread through scripture with numerous references. Nothing else will do!
81

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23/05/2009 10:57:07
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82

Number 6,

Germany 23/05/2009 11:05:48
82 Cheeky.
83

Geoff,

sa 23/05/2009 11:10:24
Homosexuality is a product of the genetic lottery which makes some of us Hetero,gives some red hair and makes others gay for example. What would Jesus have thought? I think he would have included gays along with little children,the lame, the poor and other groups and minorities deserving of the same love and compassion as every body else.
And I emphasise-no patronising-just equal treatment or additional'love' as and when appropriate.
84

Scottish Canadian,

ottawa canada 23/05/2009 11:12:44
#75-In Darwinian evolution, any new trait, behaviour, etc must impart a survival advantage to the species or at the very least not be disadvantageous to it. In the case of homosexuality, EXILED SCOTSMAN touches on some of the possible explanations for its presence in the community. Assistance at child-rearing, population control, maintenance of the male:female sex ratio are all as good an explanation as any. Trying to find a "reason" for homosexuality is like trying to find a reason for blue eyes.

85

Geoff,

sa 23/05/2009 11:13:08
81 johnwg-with respect John with respect"noothing else will do" if you are an absolute believer of what is written in the Bible. For the rest of us, allow us our own belief systems.
86

Observer,,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 11:17:33
75 Why would you need to have a ''rationale'' for being gay ? It's not a decision you make. It's how you were born. There have been records of homosexuality made ever since we began recording history - it is part of the human condition. In that sense it is normal - it is a constant, a feature of any society to be found all over the world. There is no society in which homosexuals do not exist. The variations in society depend on whether homosexuals (being a minority group) are accorded respect and equality with their heterosexual counterparts.

87

Geoff,

sa 23/05/2009 11:19:57
85 Scottish Canadian-inasmuch as evolution designs the vast majority to reproduce as its primary function then one could call homosexuality an abberation. But even if it is an 'abberation' there is zero justification for discriminating against homosexuals. It is not a disease that your children can catch. It would appear that sterility is on the rise as well-maybe also natures response to runaway population growth or again maybe just another genetic accident. Those christians on this forum who advocate the punishing of homosexuality are mindful of Hitlers fascists who it would appear wanted to make the whole world blond and blue eyed!!(wonder how Hitler himself got round that one?)
88

Stan Butler,

23/05/2009 11:20:42
#80 Exiled Scotsman


Not a particularly convincing expanation/rationale.

As for the incidence of homosexuality in animals, are you referring to homosexual acts by animals that are just as likely to engage in procreational sex, or animals that are exclusively homosexual?
89

jdships,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 11:22:36
The practising of religion is dwindling as people come to realise it is all one big con.
What is the problem re a persons sexuality as long as it doesn't harm other people ?
The " holier than you " attitude has no place in midern society.
It is quite amusing listening to Clerics crticising MP's and talking about democracy.
When was there ever democracy in any relgion ?
90

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 11:24:29
#74 Imitation? I don't know what paperback re-hash you're reading but as you don't read ancient Hebrew or Greek, what do you know? Honestly, it's like argueing with jehovahs witnesses on the doorstep with this bunch of dinosaurs! Research has shown their brains to be wired in a certain way, so I suppose there'll be no changing them. And a recent Pew study shows fundies to more likely support torture of war on terror victims in Guantanamo. And readers of the daily mail too, no doubt.
91

Stan Butler,

23/05/2009 11:25:37
#87 Observer

It's Darwinism/evolutionary theory that requires an explanation for homosexuality, not homosexuals.
92

Observer,,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 11:33:16
92 The necessity to find an ''explanation'' for homosexuality to ''fit in'' with Darwinism is based on the (erroneous) belief that gays can't have children. That's rubbish, gays can and have had children since the dawn of time. The parental instinct does not actually depend on what you do in the sack. Mind you that is a fairly scary thought for traditionalists.
93

The Ayrshire Bard,

23/05/2009 11:39:10
#59 is absolutely correct about dwindling numbers. The C of S has lost new members through the demise of church affiliated youth movements such as the BB and Guides. By far the greatest percentage of today's congregations are now elderly and their numbers diminish annually. Churches have been closing down for several years and it is difficult to see a happy outcome irrespective of the sexual tendency of its ministers.
94

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 11:45:10
There can be absolutely no doubting the contribution of homosexual people to culture and humanity and I fully support a society that protects homosexual people from hatred, bigotry and attack.

However, the Gospel message addresses our common humanity (where we all die and tolerate each others' way of dying) and offers us a new common humanity (where we are resurrected from the dead to new life) on a 'take it or leave it' basis and, yes, sins are forgiven but there is the expectation of a change, or cessation, of behaviour patterns.

The dilemma for any church is how to relate, or hold in tension, the requirements and constraints of decent law-abiding public life to the requirements of holy living as set out in the Bible while at the same time not peddling a spiritual message not upheld by the Gospel itself.
The issue is not about homosexuality per se but whether a practising homosexual can (a) be fully obedient to Christ or (b) accede to a role of authority within the church. There are similar, but not identical, issues regarding heterosexual activity too.

The Christian faith is not Gnosticism and its aim is not self-realisation. Some people muddy the waters over which parts of the Bible to adhere to - food laws, circumcision but the Bible, and Biblical interpretation, is clear on these issues.

Firstly, all of the Bible must be cross-interpreted within itself as it will give the circumstances to which certain injunctions apply. (e.g. circumcision is not an issue for non-Jewish believers in Jesus ... which covers most of the Church of Scotland.)
Secondly, in terms of Biblical interpretation, a negation cannot be argued from a silence. If the Lord God does not qualify, refine, adapt or repeal a principle then it stands 'as is'.

The real question is "What is the LORD God saying to the homosexual community and, further to that, to homosexual believers?"
However, as I see it, the choice is the same as to a lot of heterosexuals, therefore regardless of
95

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 11:49:22
Hi Garry (Otton)

"I don't know what paperback re-hash you're reading but as you don't read ancient Hebrew or Greek, what do you know?"

Well, I do have some (little) ability in the languages you refer to. What specific texts are you referring to?


96

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 11:51:47
... oops too verbose in my penultimate post.

... therefore, regardless of orientation, the choice remains (and this is a description not an ultimatum): Will you abandon some of your current behaviour for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven and for your life in the world to come?
97

Stan Butler,

23/05/2009 11:53:35
#93 Observer,

You are presenting your opinions as facts.
98

BobD,

Backo'Beyond 23/05/2009 11:57:26
You can "prove" anything you want to about what the Bible supposedly teaches. The very first book tells us that God made man "in his own image" and goes on to say he also made them male and female.

That could literally mean separate or combined sexes, but God must have been both male and female if this statement is true.

But who witnessed it?
99

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 12:07:12
'You can "prove" anything you want to about what the Bible supposedly teaches'

Couldn't agree more - which is why there must be the litmus of coherency across all Scripture rather than particular arguments from particular passages.

Even then, there is still the debate over determining whether it was God who said things. So, either it's true and it is God's word or it a closed-loop, self-justifying text.

I wonder how we solve that one? The (Christian) Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit as being the one who unpacks the truth about God to anyone who is open to Him.
Bottom line seems to be God hates sin yet loves the sinner and, in that entanglement, God seeks to save and the redeem the person. Whether He succeeds does seem to depend on our compliance - like He's not going to force us into Heaven if we really don't want to go there.
100

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 12:10:54
OK Garry, don't know if the scotsman will allow Greek font but here goes ...


? ??? ??date ?t? t? s?µa ?µ?? ?a?? t?? e? ?µ?? a???? p?e?µat?? est?? ?? e?ete ap? ?e?? ?a? ??? este ea?t??
101

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 12:11:22
It didn't !!!
102

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 12:11:46
Let's nail one myth to the post: The bible's not clear about anything, let alone gays or gay sex! No wonder academics like the late John Boswell get up so many militant's noses for questioning some re-hashed, re-written, re-translated bit of nonsense. Some people like the same sex. Get over it. Some gays like sex with women. That's cool with me. (But bring your hubby).
103

Sedov,

23/05/2009 12:16:59
The three pillars of the capitalist establishment in the UK, the Church, the Monarchy and Parliament are falling apart at the seams.

The Royal family is a complete laughing stock around the world, telling us to be frugal whils they spend millions on castles, palaces and royal junkets abroad. The yound princes etc are out of touch with reality and live in fantasy world.


The Roman Catholic Church is riddled with scandal, abuse and corruption and the Church of Scotland cannot make up its mind if it really wants to treat all men as equal - what hypocrites!

MP's have their hand in the till and cannot be trusted because on a day to day basis they are not accountable to the people they serve so they they abuse the expenses system that we pay for.

Capitilism is not working around the world and is in terminal decline.

Forward to Socialism! Workers of the World Unite!
104

Garry Otton,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 12:19:36
Hello Dave. I don't know if The Scotsman let's you see my árse, but here goes: (.)
105

Garry Otton,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 12:20:22
It didn't. Or if it did, it was nothing like what it really looks like. That's text for you.
106

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23/05/2009 12:23:20
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23/05/2009 12:26:04
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108

Utar Refson,

23/05/2009 12:31:54
Oh dear. It looks like the amateur Biblical scholars are out again showing how ignorant they are. Three things, which will probably be flatly ignored:

1) Jesus claimed he was God, so he is claiming he is the God who laid down the laws on sexuality in the Old Testament. Every time Jesus said "I am..." in the Gospels it's a pun - I am translates into "YHWH" or Yahweh in Hebrew

2) Christians don't need to rely on Leviticus since it was for Jews and Israel. The Apostles of the NT are very clear on the rejection of all sex outside of non-heterosexual marriage

3) There are at least three words that translate into "Love" in Greek, the language of the NT. Only one, "Eros" is sexual. Jesus used "Phileos" and "Agape" in the gospels: fraternal and selfless love. Not sexual love, so they do not endorse any or all sexual expression.

Carry on.
109

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 12:39:57
#109 Utar

I thought Jesus would have spoken Hebrew or Amaraic not Greek? It's silly for any Christian to believe that the New Testaments as written in English are the ACTUAL words of Christ. The spirit of what he may have said may be there but surely the actual words are like Chinese whispers, filtered by time through various translations and by the personal prejudices of the individuals concerned.
110

JT,

23/05/2009 12:40:44
Surely the only question for any congregation is the minister any good for our parish irrespective of sexuality? Its time the church moves with the times and recognises the diversity of their communities.
111

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

23/05/2009 12:46:23
#24: There's certainly not enough debate time given over to the issue of wearing mixed fibres.
112

McGinty,

Glasgow & Aberdeen 23/05/2009 12:46:31
#104. I recently had a discussion with two Glasgow postgrad Marxist students saying that I agreed with much of socialism, especially the British variety. I owned up to being religious and from then on the shutters went up. 'You can't be religious and a socialist. Socialism is a rationalistic, scientific activity that presupposes that God doesn't exist. In Russia the church was an agent of a corrupt greedy establishment, hence its suppression etc.' But I don't see why if you're someone who believes in God, but also accepts that there can be truth in the arts, literature and science etc. that shouldn't prevent you from signing up to important socialist doctrines. Bit of a side issue but as with so many issues, there often seems to be a point at which mental block occurs and no compromise can be found. Let's hope something can be done here that enables ongoing discourse and does justice to all parties.
113

westview,

outside the kirk 23/05/2009 12:55:51
The objectionable bit about gay preachers is the preaching.Its not the sexuality of a person that matters so much as teaching that invisible friends are watching you and can send you to non existent heaven or hell.
114

Utar Refson,

23/05/2009 13:03:45
#110 - Some good points Draco.

Yes, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek were used in first century Palestine - there's even archaeological evidence showing Greek being used in street signage in Jerusalem. Some Aramaic persists in the NT such as Mark 5:41, where Jesus uses the phrase "Talitha Kumi", "little girl, get up". Greek was (and is) a superior language to Hebrew due to its precision in grammar and meaning, whereas Hebrew was largely a consonant-only text placing more of a burden on the interpreter resulting in many Rabbinic schools of thought along differing interpretation lines.

There is a wealth of textual artefacts for the books of the OT and NT, so much so that they are confident that 99.9% of the NT has been accurately and wholly preserved, with the remaining disputed portions of minor importance to doctrine and theology.

If you do want a good Biblical translation into English, I was recommended to use the New American Standard Bible by a Greek and Hebrew scholar.
115

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 13:20:42
A Friend of Fernando Poo, " There's certainly not enough debate time given over to the issue of wearing mixed fibres."

sure, but that's just an injunction rather than saying it's a behaviour that God abhors, unlike

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
116

Observer,,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 13:24:20
115 ''99.9% of the NT has been accurately and wholly preserved''

That seems to fly in the face of all the evidence on the subject. How did you reach this conclusion ?

116 What about lesbians then ? What does the Bible say about them ?
117

Serbo,

23/05/2009 13:26:06
observer

But i say unto you,That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgement,than for thee.
Matthew11v24

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life
was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation of Christ 20v15

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath
raised him from the dead,thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10v9

118

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 13:26:09
Garry, wouldn't it have been wittier to use a colon?

You talk about nailing myths but spin cack:
Romans 1:25-27 (New International Version)
"They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

Yeah - really unclear
119

Observer,,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 13:34:03
118 What does the Bible say about heterosexuals that practise ''sodomy'' ? Are they going to be cast into the Lake of Fire too ?

120

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 13:34:15
And for the record, there are many verses which shpw God's disapproval of heterosexual sin too.
121

MNS,

Scotland 23/05/2009 13:34:16
In my 'limited' experience, I was given the opinion that 'gay' people are not completely 'trusting' of 'staight' people and that the actively 'gay' community have their 'own standards' for morals. I am not 'gay' or 'anti-gay'. There is a difference. I am not religious but I would be uneasy about my child being given 'spiritual guidance' from a gay minister.
122

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 13:35:03
typo: 'show' not 'shpw'
123

MNS,

Scotland 23/05/2009 13:38:57
Last message. 'Staight' should have been 'Straight'
In my 'limited' experience, I was given the opinion that 'gay' people are not completely 'trusting' of 'straight' people and that the actively 'gay' community have their 'own standards' for morals. I am not 'gay' or 'anti-gay'. There is a difference. I am not religious but I would be uneasy about my child being given 'spiritual guidance' from a gay minister
124

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 13:40:07
120. I believe that also to be the case.

Main point: We always have the freedom to choose, that is, to continue in anything we do that is wrong or to to seek God's redemption.
Obviously, there is sin outwith homosexuality but nearly all human beings are moral agents. Some choose to reject the Gospel - that's their choice.
125

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 13:49:18
Garry: "Some people like the same sex. Get over it."

Sure, there's nothing to 'get over' ... societally!
However, this is/was meant to be a debate about the permission, or not, of practising in the Church of Scotland - which has Scripture as its authority.
It's not your problem unless you're a gay believer. It is, however, our (Christians) problem as we seek to understand what God is saying to gay believers and then to the gay community at large.
126

Observer,,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 13:54:37
126 So you think your interpretation of the gospels (which actually don't record Jesus as saying anything whatsoever about homosexuality) is sufficient authority for you and others like you to interfere in the calling of a Minister by a congregation who want him ?
127

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 13:57:22
#Dave. Clear? His daughters make Lot drunk, have sex and become pregnant by him. I don't know what your Imaginary Friend was on when She wrote all this, but if that's what they're discussing today in the wee pretendy court, then its a good job we aren't all going to see what's coming out of their colons, isn't it? If that story was about gay sex and not hospitality as scholars say, I would've turned Lot into a pillar of salt.
128

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 14:01:42
126 see earlier post
"Secondly, in terms of Biblical interpretation, a negation cannot be argued from a silence. If the Lord God does not qualify, refine, adapt or repeal a principle then it stands 'as is'."

All callings are tested in the Christian faith.

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
129

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 14:05:25
Garry,

Like I said, it's not your issue since it's not your faith community.

As for your Lot account - well you have your version of what you deem to be justice but I think the sin was the daughters' not Lot's.

"Imaginary Friend"? ... OK, I think time will tell.
130

J F M ,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 14:07:31
Strikes me there is no such thing as "normal" in our society any more, here we have a minister who actually MAKES people WANT to go to Church CHOSEN by the people of that Church and he's being told we'll have to vote on your appointment at "The General Assembly."
The Bible also tells husbands to "Chastise their wives" does that mean wife beaters can become ministers?
131

Russell M,

Stirling 23/05/2009 14:10:35
Human beings and their societies have historically pursued all manner of coping strategies to deal with the stress of living. The choices are usually dictated by their respective societies. Many find the mainstream offerings sufficient, while others look for specials of the day or offerings from other places and times. Some societies pride themselves in being tolerant and allow individuals wide latitude in behaviour, while others employ sever sanctions against deviants from the defined path. If a society values rationality and/or individuality then each behaviour ought to be judged on its own merits as to whether it poses a threat to individuals or the society at-large and deal with it as they see fit. If a society is purely an emotional construct with no intellectual component then each of its members exits at the emotional whim of their fellow members.

The members of the Church of Scotland, the Nation of Scotland and Britain need to decide what type of society they inherited and whether it is worth preserving, improving or scrapping. And if adult members of said groups and regions find these decisions too difficult. I'm sure there's a dictator somewhere who needs bodies to feed his megalomania.
132

FTH22inarow,

23/05/2009 14:14:56
Religion the root of all evil!
133

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 14:17:57
131J F M ,
"The Bible also tells husbands to "Chastise their wives" does that mean wife beaters can become ministers?'

No, it just means that people think that beating and chastening are synonymous.
134

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 14:20:09
J F M , Glasgow 23/05/2009 14:07:31
Strikes me there is no such thing as "normal" in our society any more, here we have a minister who actually MAKES people WANT to go to Church CHOSEN by the people of that Church and he's being told we'll have to vote on your appointment at "The General Assembly."

... but he is not ordained just to be a convenor of an assembly of people - a bingo hall operator can do that. His vocation is concomitant with upholding a faith not just the application of skills or technique.
135

Observer,,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 14:24:37
135 and you think that the faith he upholds is the faith that YOU believe in, not his, or indeed that of the congregation of Queens Cross.
136

danbob,

23/05/2009 14:36:51
109# It's you that talks rubbish. Show me one single scripture where Jesus claims to be God and I will show you 10 that dispute it.
Also YHWH when translated from Hebrew to the most likely english translation means Jehovah.
137

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 14:42:28
136:
I don't think I'm being that particular. I believe I'm advocating what the Church of Scotland, according to its creeds and doctrines, claims to uphold.

Yes, we each have variant 'faiths' within a larger 'Faith' but it remains coherent through principled adherence to Biblical truths and guidance by the Holy Spirit (not by man/woman). I think what I've said is orthodox rather than being too nuanced.

Sure, the congregation can uphold whatever they want but if it contravenes Christian teaching then they are in error. That is what the debate is about (I hope).
However, if they do uphold a false teaching then they will promote schism. This applies to any side in the debate.

I think the debate is a lot harder for those who believe than for those who don't.
138

danbob,

23/05/2009 14:45:06
Why do people claim religion causes wars. Religion brings people together and has prevented far more wars than it ever caused. Today the Arab world gangs up on Isreal. However if it wasn't for their islamic bonds they would be fighting each other. Take the most secular arab leader from the modern age Sadam Hussain. He caused a 8 year war with Iraq and invaded Kuwait. It was only when the Americans faced up to him that he wanted to join the religious bonds on offer from his neighbours. Thankfully they didn't buy it.
139

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 14:47:35
137.

109 is wrong to use the word 'translates' in its most exact meaning, but the use of the "I am" by Jesus would have certainly resonated with the YWHWH revelation and would have signified that to the listeners at the time.

"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)

Show me your ten passages that dispute it
140

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 14:51:48
137
Got another ten ready?

Matthew 26:63-64 (New International Version)

63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[a] the Son of God."

64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
141

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 14:52:34
140 typo
YWHWH revelation shd. be YHWH revelation
142

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 14:53:24
#Dave. Your 'faith' is more about your own personal need for certainty and clear directions in your life than anything else. Totalitarianism has always found a friend in the likes of people like you. Interpretations that spare gays only challenges your blinkered, narrow views of what this book of fiction must say to You. The version according to Dave. It is not going to give itself up as a cover for your bigotry that easily, my friend! The interpretation of Sodom and Gomorrah by scholars has NOT achieved any decisive conclusion that interprets the destruction of a city of gays, never more than a minority in any society.
143

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 14:53:43
137
That's 30 you'll have to find now

John 5:17-18 (New International Version)

17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
144

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 14:55:19
137
Jesus affirms Peter's revelation ... does that count? 40??

Matthew 16:15-17 (New International Version)

15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[a] the Son of the living God."

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
145

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 15:02:30
Garry

That's a cruel and unfair judgement you're making on me there.

" Your 'faith' is more about your own personal need for certainty and clear directions in your life than anything else."
Alternatively, you could have asked me how I arrived at what I believe. Your summative judgement is more akin to the fascists you claim to despise.

"It is not going to give itself up as a cover for your bigotry that easily, my friend!"
I think I've heard more anti-Christian bigotry from you than I've posted.

I think I've been very careful to indicate that sexual sin is not simply the province of the homosexual community. I've also, I believe, been careful to indicate that the debate has been about the appointment of practising gay clergy not the salvation of gay people.

If you do want to debate this properly and you are "my friend", then I suggest me meet up and talk.
146

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 15:14:45
146
typo 'we' not 'me'
147

Angels message ,

kilwinning 23/05/2009 15:17:18
The word of God clearly states that Homosexuality is a Sin just as murder is sin and stealing is sin. We as God's people must hate the sin and not the sinner. Who are we as human beings to decide what is sin and what is not. We can clearly see that this nation is in moral decline because we are making up our own minds as to what is right and what is wrong. Jesus says he came to set the captives free. Homosexual people have been taken captive to the wiles of satan giving into thier sexual desires. Jesus says that he can set them free from this burden if they repent and turn to him for help. The bible says that when you become a born again christian you become a new creature born of God. That the old is gone and the new is born. This means that as a new creation the old sinful desires will disappear. If people do continue to deliberately sin then it's doubtfull that they are a child of God. The bible is clear that many false doctrines and teachings of the bible will rise and even false christians just as Judus betrayed Jesus so will many false teachers and prophets rise in the last days. I'm saying to many christians rise up speak out the truth for the lord says those who hold on till the end shall be saved but we must speak the truth. How will you know if a christian is real? by the way they live thier lives. Jesus says you shall know them by thier fruit.Watch out christians for your are decieved into thinking that we live by what the politicians say about politcal correctness etc. We are to live by what God says in his word. I know many people who have been delivered and set free from sickness disease, alcoholism, and homosexuality by Jesus. He is real and he is coming for his true church. The clearly states that if his people repent then he will heal thier land.
148

Fifi la Bonbon,

23/05/2009 15:19:31
#109 - I'm glad you've nailed "the amateur Biblical scholars" - religion is too important to be left to amateurs, which is why we have bishops, priests, and ministers, and all the other professionals to explain things that we poor ignorant savages can't understand.

Jesus didn't say you couldn't have gay ministers. We have the bishops, priests, and ministers, and all the other professionals to do that for us. And just as well, or the Church of Scotland's congregations would be free to let anyone they wanted to be their ministers. And that's not what the people who set up the church wanted, is it?

Oh, wait a minute!
149

Fifi la Bonbon,

23/05/2009 15:28:17
#148 - I think it ill behoves anyone from Kilwinnng to lecure us in all one paragraph without even a single break about anything.

But let's try and read what you are trying to say.

You begin by saying "The word of God clearly states that ..." Where? It's not clear, it's not in the ten commandments, so where?

Then you say "Who are we as human beings to decide what is sin and what is not." Well whatever it is, it isn't clear. But then you use that word "clearly" again, as if wishing made it true.

And then you just chunter on, making it clear that you are a better person than the rest of us and spouting on and on and on the same old rubbish. What you mean is "I'm right, you're all wrong, it clearly says so in the Bible" and really just telling lies about all the people you know "set free" from sickness and probably boils and ague, never mind fancying people.

150

BOTOB,

23/05/2009 15:30:26
Surely fornication is sinful?
151

FTH22inarow,

Edinburgh, Scotland 23/05/2009 15:34:16
Who wrote the Bible and the Koran anyway? They're just ficticious stories folks, not to be taken so seriously.
152

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 15:36:49
149

Obviously I may have misread the tenor of your piece given that e-mails are atonal and people rarely use adverbs to qualify how they are saying something, but if I have read it right then I read it as being too cynical. I think there should be a healthy skepticism but not to support a blanket accusation.

The Bible makes it clear that congregations need supervisors and that certain believers have certain ministerial gifts, but the one thing that any leader must not do is teach what is contrary to the revealed will of God.
It's not a question of interpretation being 'left to savages' since we (nearly) all have access to the same Bible in our native tongue. It is to do with whether the interpretation is coherent within the corpus of Scripture or whether an argument or teaching becomes specious in its decontextualisation - this applies to all sides of any Christian debate.
God's nature includes Holiness and Love working together. The Holiness does not work against the Love and the Love does not work against the Holiness.

A lot of the non-Christian critics on this site are right, there IS always the possibility of homophobia or homonegativity just as there is (equally) the possibility of veiled hatred of Christians.

The debate is NOT, however, whether gay people can be saved or not. The matter concerns active homosexual practice.

In the Gene Robinson case in ECUSA, had he been a Bishop who had left his wife and children to strike up a relationship with another woman he would not have held on to his post. Why was he afforded that luxury simply because he had outed himself?

The nub is that the Church has to decide whether ACTIVE homosexuality is compatible with Biblical/Christ's teaching then, if it does tolerate the praxis, whether that extends into leadership roles.
153

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 15:37:22
Not unfair at all. There have been more than a few studies of links between militant religionists and totalitarianism. The old 'I'm not homophobic, but...' argument has never really washed with me, either.

These posts don't give me any opportunity to look closer at the sort of upbringing that leads people like you to find solace in rigid, oppressive interpretations of ancient scripts. You could do with a week in an alternative gay community. It would do you a lot of good. (I can feel a Channel 4 doc coming on...)

And spare me that old chestnut about bigotry towards religionists. I have many friends who are. Decent people. Gay and straight; celebate and horny (the priest tongue wrestling me over the back seat of an Amsterdam porn cinema springs to mind... Now he COULD have turned me the Other Way). Anyway, none of them think they know all the answers like you seem to. So maybe you lot DO need a special club. There you go... You could call it Lot's Church! And read from Dave's Version!
154

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 15:39:04
# AngelsMessage. NURSE!!!
155

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 15:41:37
151
Biblically, Fornication is voluntary sexual intercourse between a man and woman who are not married to each other. Adultery is one type of fornication.

Yes it is sinful. Not many Christians believe that it's not.
Sins are forgiveable and sometimes it's an arduous journey working through it.

Whether leadership of a congregation would be returned to someone who sinned in that way is debatable. If they continued to sin in that way they would probably be asked to sort themselves out before coming back - not as condemnation but as a way of bringing the person to their senses.
156

,

23/05/2009 15:44:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
157

greenhill,

23/05/2009 15:49:01
The Bible is clear on homosexuality. In the Old Testament God commits genocide on gays and his stance is ratified in the New Testament.

Anti gay Christians are theologically correct. They have actually read the text and understand it.

I suggest those "Christians" who disagree should get a grip and walk away from their manifestly ridiculous belief system which includes the following absurd claims:

Christ was born of a virgin: Aye right Ha! Ha! Ha!

He brought the stinking corpse of Lazarus back to life:
You idiots actually believe that: Ho! Ho! Ho!

He came back to life after being crucified and later ascended bodily into heaven. He! He! He!

He will return and raise every human who has ever lived and pass judgement. Most will be sent to the lake of fire and only a few will get to the "kingdom":

The fact is if you believe in this sort of nonsense you will understand that gays do not get into heaven because the creator of the universe is really concerned about what people do when they are naked and he sees everything.

Let's face it Christians are a bunch of abject looney’s .
158

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 15:50:25
Dave. Your stunted, narrow and inexperienced interpretation of sex mirrors that of the way you interpret the bible. Despite it being utter fiction, it is disturbing that you blame Lot's daughter's for becoming pregnant by him than blaming Lot. I expect you feel quite at home in these mysogynistic cults. Whilst travelling in Nepal it was refreshing to see sexuality treated in a religion as a creative force than something wicked and to be used for power and control.
159

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 15:52:49
Garry, you're doing the very thing you claim to despise

"Not unfair at all. There have been more than a few studies of links between militant religionists and totalitarianism. "

I'm sure there have been, but you have chosen to make a personal judgement on me. I have not on you. I have kept to presenting pertinent bits of the Bible when people have said things like "it doesn't say..." etc.
Therefore ... unfair.

I think it's more than possible to be passionate about the Bible without being totalitarian, however there are absolute aspects to God's nature that are not negotiable. Yes, they can be counter-argued, disputed, however ... God is Holy.

As for 'Lot's church' ... thanks for the consideration but I think I'm more in step with Abraham than Lot.

Dave's Version ... good one :-) ... again, no thanks, it would probably be lacking in a few areas but at least it might have more to it than the UGV (Unsubstantiated Garry Version) ... ;-P

So I guess you're not for meeting up then?

160

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 16:00:20
Come out from behind your frock. Who are you? Unless there is a chance it will help me stop SNP and Labour awarding funds to divisive sectarian or so-called 'faith' schools; stop clerics stealing £40m of taxpayers money from NHS hospitals; stop £10m going into the BBC's laughably called 'Religion & Ethics Dept' and stop it interrupting the morning news with the proselytising 'Thought for the friggin' Day'? No.
161

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 16:01:18
"sexuality treated in a religion as a creative force"

As in the Creation narrative in Genesis?

"Your stunted, narrow and inexperienced interpretation of sex "
You know absolutely nothing about my experience of sex - you're really going for the accusations now - why?

" I expect you feel quite at home in these mysogynistic cults"
It appears that you might be betraying your own narrow views there

"Despite it being utter fiction"
Yes, Garry, is it now you who knows everything? Come on, sauce for the goose et al. :-) Why is your meta-narrative superior?

Keep well :-)

162

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 16:05:42
Greenhill
"Let's face it Christians are a bunch of abject looney’s"

love it, but I think St Paul got there before you ...

and 'if' is such an amazing word ...

1 Corinthians 15:12-20

Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
163

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 16:12:23
Genesis creation is a fairy story. I'm talking about beautiful depictions of érotic art.

I making judgements about your séxuality for you to challenge them. You're not.

Mysogynistic? Me? How so?

You are entitled to believe what you like, however daft. But if I was to say, you and your wife were not entitled to have séx, it was a 'sin', you'd quite rightly be offended. Well I'm offended: By you.
164

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 16:13:24
"Well I'm offended: By you."

Sorry
165

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 16:17:23
Apology accepted :-) We really aren't that bad y'know. Naughty maybe. But not bad.
166

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 23/05/2009 16:19:12
Both Old and New Testaments are full of some extraordinarily beautiful, moving passages, and much that is historically true. On the other hand they also contain much that is utter nonsense, and if we has insisted on taking it all seriously we would still be living in the Dark Ages today. In short: You can pretty well find whatever you damn well please in the Bible, and you can pretty well interpret it as you damn well please, so it is useless on such questions as that of gay priests in the 21st century.

The answer: If you have faith that there is a God, and you accept that that faith in fact stems from your God, then your faith in the person who leads your congregation surely has a similar origin. If the majority of people in a congregation have faith in their priest, then that must be by God's grace. If they do not, then a new priest must be found for that congregation. In short: let each congregation decide whether it will accept a new priest, whether gay or not, whether conservative or liberal in scriptural interpretation, whether modern or old-fashioned. If the Church of Scotland is there to serve its flock, then let it abide by their faith.
167

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 16:32:30
#167. No! Absolutely not. If there is just one wee gay lad in congregation, bullied to go along by religionist parents, grouping together in support of a homophobic priest it is unacceptable. (I'm chatting online to a lad who was once in that situation right now. He thankfully managed to see the light and extract himself from that nonsense).
168

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 16:33:58
Garry,

I am sorry for offending you, that was not my aim and thank you for accepting my apology.
However, at the rsik of violating the detente, if the offence is inherenly in the Gospel (and it's really there and not just in the manners of the adherents) ... then there's not a lot I can do about that.

There I go, mentioning 'lot' again :-)

... and please take this in good spirit ... but have you ever looked up the root meaning of the word 'bad'?

Now, don't 'lose it' with me please if my humour's not to your liking.

I hope we spar again (in a friendly way).

Keep Well
169

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 16:36:03
typo

risk not rsik
170

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 16:42:12
Caora Dubh

A gracious and generous solution and one which may carry the day.
Sadly, I cannot agree with the conclusion of the following sentence: "If the majority of people in a congregation have faith in their priest, then that must be by God's grace."

In good conscience I don't believe that it "must be".

Oh dear ... now for the onslaught.
171

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 16:43:39
169 typo

inherently not inherenly


(Hey, I now all these typos are obvious to most people but I just want to pre-empt any sniping)
172

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 23/05/2009 16:44:40
The Romans, the world's first capitalist society, were meticulous record keepers, whose only interests were collecting taxes and putting down any hint of rebellion. Nowhere in their records is there any mention of Jesus. There didn't have to be - the Jewish Sanhedrin had the power of life and death over anyone charged with being a heretic and the Romans left them alone as long as the taxes kept coming in. The only logical conclusion is that Jesus never existed and the new testament is so riddled with errors that it can be dismissed as pure fantasy. Matthew IvI makes that clear, where Jesus is said to be the son of Joseph but also the son of God. The whole story was cobbled together by the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD to clean up the biblical errors, a task at which they failed.
As for the Church of Scotland, its sickening participation the Highland Clearances stands as a memorial to all those who died or were deported.
Those interested in the incidence of gay ministers might care to research the number of arrests made of consenting ministers in the Princess Street public toilets during the General Assembly.
173

Western Gael,

23/05/2009 16:45:02
Consider these two words that have different definitions. Natural – etymologically, “occuring in nature.” Normal – mathematically,“the most likely outcome.” Homosexuality by those narrow definitions is natural, but it is not normal. That being said, the Episcopal church in the United States is riven over the question of ordaining gay Priests, some parishes accepting the natural, others demanding the normal. In fact, our daughter’s priest and rector are both gay. Given the more permissive, accepting, and less demanding nature of the current times, it is not unreasonable that the Church of Scotland must now deal with this issue, as have most other churches of the Christian confession. However, doing so will be far more challenging than squaring the circle.
174

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 16:51:16
One wants the majority of its congregation homophobic, whether they are or not. The other accepts the majority if they are homophobic. I say NO to homophobia! NO in all its vile, twisted, hydra-headed forms. Accept the gentler interpretations of the bible or the secular rule of law. Challenge the nasty roots of fascism and say: NEVER AGAIN!!
175

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 16:51:32
Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim

erm ... Josephus?
176

Stan Butler,

23/05/2009 17:06:56
#175 Garry Otton,


Is everyone who disagrees with your ideology a fascist?
177

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 17:18:06
Any gay believers in Jesus care to give their take on the debate?
178

Mèths,

23/05/2009 17:18:38
177 Stan

Oh THERE you are you odious little man! You got the wrong guy on yesterdays' thread about m*** labour. OK?
179

Stan Butler,

23/05/2009 17:23:19
=179 Mèths


In which case I apologise for the misattribution, even though it was framed as a question.

Do you recall the name of the cyber gnat poster who referred to 'mongo Labour supporters'?
180

nova albion,

23/05/2009 18:01:59
IT'S ABOUT TIME! problems happen when they are asked to cover it up.
181

Mèths,

23/05/2009 18:19:56
Stan

It was probably one of "The Banned Ones". Can't remember.

(I now withdraw the "odious" remark)

ps to 181

HI KIMBA!!
182

Canada,

Canada 23/05/2009 18:36:10
Maybe this time I can escape the censorship of a pro gay newspaper.

The kingdom of God is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship, benign and benovelent. God states clearly that homosexual relationships are an abomination in His eyes.

The only qualification for memebership of a Christian church is to be a professed sinner, whatever that sin maybe: homosexual relationships, adultery, drunkedness. All sinners are welcome, sin is all inclusive.

When Jesus forgives the woman caught in adultery: He admonishes her, "Go and sin no more."

Mr Rennie, "Go and sin no more."
183

greenhill,

23/05/2009 18:44:12
RE Canada,Canada 23/05/2009 18:36:10

I say you are a true Christian. However I do not agree with you. I reject Christianity

Christians who oppose you are theologically wrong.


184

English Voice,

23/05/2009 18:46:06
183. Oh Canada!

Great post.

I belive the bible also states:

- wearing clothes made from more than one fabric is a sin punishable by death
- working on the sabbath is a sin, punishable by death
- looking at and feeling sexual attraction for a woman is the same as committing the sin of adultery with her
- when offering animal sacrifices to God, it is a sin not to add salt to them when burning them

Canada, be gone and sin no more!
185

Mèths,

23/05/2009 18:55:14
185

You missed out "flipping" 2nd homes.
186

English Voice,

23/05/2009 18:58:32
186. Meths

flipping second homes and havings one's moat cleaned, claiming expenses for non existant mortgages and buying floating homes for one's ducks are not sins. They are within the rules. And we in New Labour are all about being within the rules!
187

Thistledhu,

23/05/2009 19:14:13
I AM not that botherd what the church of Scotland does or does not do.

Though i do admit it is intresting that the church of Scotland is yet again split on interpritation of the bible strange how history repeats itself.

The assembly in its self rightouseness has missed a simple point. That they or any other organisation can not ban a person from a post/job on the basis of their sexuality they would be commiting an offence to do so!!!
188

,

23/05/2009 19:15:55
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189

,

23/05/2009 19:28:28
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190

Thistledhu,

23/05/2009 19:28:34
Well one thing i have learnt a lot more about the bible includeing the reality that if you put two 'Christians' in a room with a bible they with their pre loaded prejudice are in fact looking at two diffrent books and all the implications that go with it.
191

,

23/05/2009 19:29:53
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192

Ted Voth Jr,

Mad Town Wes' Consin 23/05/2009 19:31:30
What's this? A passel of Scots talkin about 'releegion?' Unheard of! May God help us!

I've got a bunch of opinions on this, but my sept of the McClintocks don't live there any more. Suffice it to say…

Psalm 133:1 A Song of degrees of David.
Behold, how good and how pleasant
for brethren to dwell together in unity!
2 Like the precious ointment upon the head,
that ran down upon the beard,
Aaron’s beard:
that went down to the skirts
of his garments;
3 As the dew of Hermon,
that descended upon the mountains of Zion:
for there the LORD commanded the blessing, life for evermore.

I'll pray for the sisters and the brothers.
193

English Voice,

23/05/2009 19:41:15
HUNDREDS of pupils were subjected to a series of depraved attacks on their basic common sense over a 40 year period, the Irish government has confirmed.

A devastating report into the Catholic education system has revealed endemic insane voodoo delivered via stories about pregnant virgins, fish-based magic and inflammable bushes with deep, booming American accents.

The report states: "Typically the children would be woken up at 7am by one of the teachers screaming about how fossils were nothing more than Satan's place mats.

"By 5pm, the children had been through repeated, sordid levels of utter horsepoop.

"Some were so scarred by their experience that they grew up to watch all those programmes about haunted houses on Living TV and say things like, 'you can't prove there aren't ghosts'."

The report also revealed how the maltreatment of logic reached the highest echelons of the Church, with the Pope himself teaching children they would roast in the 'Bad Fire' if they touched themselves in the 'whoor-equipment'.
194

Mèths,

23/05/2009 19:42:20
I do believe our kimba is having a breakdown.
195

English Voice,

23/05/2009 19:45:23
195. I thought someone was exhuming a mass fish grave, but now, having read your post, i see the source of the pungent pong - Kimbaya my Lard, Kimbaya!
196

Superhaggis,

Houston 23/05/2009 19:48:19
I would like to say a few things:

First of all gaybashing is wrong and Homosexuals deserve as much love as anyone else. That being said it should be pointed out that the bible says in many places in both the old and new testaments that homosexaulity is wrong. The word of God says unrepentant homosexuals will burn in hell

Saying homosexuality is wrong or speaking against such lifestyles is NOT Gay bashing. Gay Bashing is calling Gays names or being cruel and such conduct will land a person in hell right next to the homosexuals.

It is essential that all Christians walk in TRUTH AND LOVE. However, too many people are only seeing/using one side of an equation that needs two sides. Many speak out against a perverted lifestyle but are hardly loving about it. On the other hand, many respond to anti homosexual beliefs claiming that being against homosexuals is "unloving" They feel(correctly) that love is the correct thing but they miss the Mark when that love does not include telling the truth entirely.

The bible is clear in many places that homosexuality is "unnatural" and the destiny of such is also shown in scripture(true many people unrepentant of many things but do numbers make something morally correct) when the bible states something clearly then humanity is not at liberty to change divine decrees to satisfy convenient beliefs

The bible is unfallible and the word of God. While some things are literally true in some ages all of the bible is true on some level.The scriptures are consistantly frank about homosexuality though. When Jesus dealt with sexual sin true he did not condemn BUT he also said "Go and SIN NO MORE

Calling gays "sick" is wrong because of the connotations of the term. If Gays are "sick" then sick people need tender loving care to get well. NOT stones thrown.

Jesus Christ is Lord in Scotland and as the grandson of a presbyterian minister I find it disturbing that the Scottish Church would even think of bowing to secular pressu
197

Thistledhu,

23/05/2009 19:51:02
#197 you mean commit a criminal act and discriminate against a person due to his/her sexuality
198

English Voice,

23/05/2009 19:53:24
198. But he does it lovingly.
199

Thistledhu,

23/05/2009 19:54:56
199 of course lots of love in Barrlinie
200

Dougie Welsh,

Halifax 23/05/2009 19:57:46
It is time that the people who are usually found inside churches understood that ALL organised religious factions are political constructs whose sole original purpose was to obtain power over others for the founders.

No Bible in the world, regardless of language in which it is written, contains the actual words of Christ. Dictaphones had not been invented.

Churches are social constructs, as well as political ones, because most folk running churches wish to promote certain social ideals. That's perfectly fine by me.

I have a son who is gay. He's a fine lad, bright and curious and gentle, considerate of others, accepting of the limitations of others. An example some hetero's here should follow.

We are told that Christ's main message was that we should all love (agape or phileos, doesn't really matter) one another. When are all you gay-bashers on a rant going to start following what you have been told to do?

201

Thistledhu,

23/05/2009 20:13:56
Lets face facts the bible is a compendium of essay's booklets and books based on third/fourth hand knowledge.

then copied by hand.

translated from hebrew to greek to Latin.

Scope for mistakes and rounding off, of phrases certainly!!

Scope for Mistake's being made in translation ? oh yes!!!

So with this in mind is it a good idea to use verse from the bible to guide how you treat people

Simple Answer NO!!!
202

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 20:17:26
"So with this in mind is it a good idea to use verse from the bible to guide how you treat people?"

Maybe, but it's a good place to start trying to understand what God's view on the matter is.

Always scope for mistakes which is why there has to be intra-Scriptural coherency. as far as ancient documents go the Bible is very, very accurate. Dead Sea Scrolls upheld the integrity of the scribal tradition.
203

Thistledhu,

23/05/2009 20:22:44
Problem is Dave god dident create the bible A Roman Emperor did.
204

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 20:24:50
We are told that Christ's main message was that we should all love ...

Agreed, that we love God with all our heart mind soul and strength and love our neighbour as ourself.

What happens when these two aspects of love collide?

Yes, you keep loving and you don't adulterate the truth. If there's no faith in God then in some ways it's a bit easier because certain tensions are removed. Love the sinner (oneself included) and hate the sin (oneself included) ... just don't pretend that sin is right.

However, there is sufficient injunction in the Bible to say that a practising homosexual should not be the leader of a congregation - that is why there is this debate at the GA in the first place. If it wasn't there there would be no problem.

"If you believe what you like in the Gospel, and reject what you don't like, it is not the Gospel you believe, but yourself."--St. Augustine of Hippo
205

Thistledhu,

23/05/2009 20:29:45
Dave you missed a very powerful quote that in reality will end this matter

The Equel Opportunities Act.
206

Sedov,

23/05/2009 20:34:47
#113 Mcginty

I was religious and beleived totally in god up until my mid twenties when I begun to study Marx and become involved in left wing politics which encouraged reading and stugying the events of history and socio logy. For a time I thought I was a marxist who still beleived in god. gradually as I learned more, the religous beliefs in me withered away and now I am proud to say that I regard myself as an atheist and better of for being so in every way. I look back at the time when i did believe in god and I wonder how I was so stupid.

However, if anyone can prove to me that there is a god then I will throw away the theories of Darwin, Marx, and all those billiant people who exposed the biggest drawback to human progress -religion.

Thus Marxism, which is based on the materialist conception of man and the universe, cannot by its nature accommodate god.

207

Stan Butler,

23/05/2009 20:35:34
188 Thistledhu


'The assembly in its self rightouseness has missed a simple point. That they or any other organisation can not ban a person from a post/job on the basis of their sexuality they would be commiting an offence to do so!!!'



You're wrong.

208

Thistledhu,

23/05/2009 20:39:10
208 Explain
209

Thistledhu,

23/05/2009 20:40:40
sedov Marxism!!! dear oh dear
210

Norrie G,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 20:56:29
#113 "the theories of Darwin..."

Glad to see someone has conceded that Darwin, the new god of atheists and GLBT population, is just a theoritician.

And how does the fact that gay people hate religion reconcile with their activism to have a say in the running of the Church? Is it a case of divide and conquer?
211

bcc820,

USA 23/05/2009 21:05:06
>> (There is NOTHING in the Gospels to say that Christ had any view on homosexuality at all.) << >> An oft parroted comment, but untrue. In Matthew 19:4-6, Jesus said:

“Haven't you read that at the beginning the Creator made them *male* and *female*? For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one. Therefore, what God has joined together let not man separate."

Jesus took the Pharisees all the way back to Genesis 1:27 and 2:24 and affirmed God’s original intent for marriage - "male and female." Jesus affirmed ONLY Biblical marriage of one man and one woman.
212

bcc820,

USA 23/05/2009 21:14:52
There is no seeking of "middle ground," as the story alludes too. The Kirk either stands for the Truth of God as given in His Word -- or the "truth" of Man influenced by all the emotions and passions of his yet unglorified body. It must be one or the other. It cannot seek to combine both and remain the Kirk of God.
213

Stan Butler,

23/05/2009 21:22:51
#209 Thistledhu


In short Churches are exempt from the legislation.
214

Thistledhu,

23/05/2009 21:23:41
Literal intepritation of the bible is folly.

Lets face facts the bible is a compendium of essay's booklets and books based on third/fourth hand knowledge.

then copied by hand.

translated from hebrew to greek to Latin.

Scope for mistakes and rounding off, of phrases certainly!!

Scope for Mistake's being made in translation ? oh yes!!!

So with this in mind is it a good idea to use verse from the bible to guide how you treat people

Simple Answer NO!!!
215

westview,

In the right. 23/05/2009 21:27:22
The biggest problem for Christians must be the command---"Thou shalt not kill". Yet they have, all through the last few thousand years and right up to the present day. Battle hymns, war winning prayers, military ministers, etc. How can they live with that contradiction in their organisation? Brainwashed from birth to preach one thing and do another probably.
216

The Bish,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 21:28:03
Hommosexuality is immoral, perverse, and as the Bible states, "an abomination in the sight of God".
217

Thistledhu,

23/05/2009 21:30:30
214 churches are only exempt from certain sections of variouse Equal Rights acts Not employment law
218

Thistledhu,

23/05/2009 21:33:12
216 the core reality of christian churches is that christians do not and should not act in a christian way
219

Thistledhu,

23/05/2009 21:37:13
217 and the bible was wrote by whom
220

Stan Butler,

23/05/2009 21:38:52
# 207Sedov

Deary me. A little learning is indeed a dangerous thing.

The notion that there is some conflict between Darwinism and orthodox Christianity has always puzzled me.

There was an interesting programme on BBC2 a short time ago called did Darwin Kill God which dealt with the subject. It's available on youtube and is well worth a watch.

It was written and presented by an academic theologian Conor Cunningham. Curiously, in view of your lumping together of Darwin and Marx as two people whose views are incompatible with Marx, he was greatly influencedearly in his academic career by one of his tutors David Mclellan who is both a Catholic and a Marxist. I assume you have heard of him.

Now it may be that you know more about, and have a better grasp of, Marxism than David Mclellan, but I doubt it.
221

Stan Butler,

23/05/2009 22:13:17


'two people whose views are incompatible with Marx'


that should read 'two people whose views are incompatible with Christianity'.
222

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 23/05/2009 22:55:31
Thistledhu

Equal Opportunities Act:

The issue is role and vocation not skills. I fear that you will be right which means the Christian Church will be legally obliged to something unChristian. Perhaps we will see Christian civil disobedience.

Trouble is, that it will be portrayed as homophobia or homonegativity when it is a wider issue than that.
223

Phil1,

Edinburgh 23/05/2009 23:06:48
If you belong to a club then you have to obey the club rules. If the vote goes against practicing gay minis
ters then that is OK because the members decide.

God might have a view on it but this year it will be for members to decide and most of the contributors here are not members - so have an opinion by all means but who cares what you think - you are not part of the club.
224

FerryPort,

23/05/2009 23:14:47
Oh hello everyone

God doesn't exist
Gays do

God bless the gays

And apparently the church is not a club
It is apparently inclusive not exclusive
225

FerryPort,

23/05/2009 23:20:34
one last comment from me in this chapter

Thatcher is a christian (nearly said critin)

god help her ('n he'll need it) come the day

226

Observer,,

Glasgow 23/05/2009 23:22:21
Mr Rennie has won. The move to block him has been rejected - well done those who voted in favour of the 21st Century.
227

FerryPort,

23/05/2009 23:22:35
"creton" sorry
228

Garry Otton,

ScottishMediaMonitor.com 23/05/2009 23:31:37
The militants have lost.
229

Stan Butler,

23/05/2009 23:32:07
218 Thistledhu


I think the relevant regulations are contained in The Employment Equality (Sexual Orientation) Regulations 2003.

Reg 7 lists states that the general prohibition against discrimination on the grounds of sexuality doesn't apply where

'(a) the employment is for purposes of an organised religion;

(b) the employer applies a requirement related to sexual orientation -

(i) so as to comply with the doctrines of the religion, or

(ii) because of the nature of the employment and the context in which it is carried out, so as to avoid conflicting with the strongly held religious convictions of a significant number of the religion's followers; and

(c) either -

(i) the person to whom that requirement is applied does not meet it, or

(ii) the employer is not satisfied, and in all the circumstances it is reasonable for him not to be satisfied, that that person meets it.'



So far as I can see the Church of Scotland is exempt from the legislation.







230

FerryPort,

23/05/2009 23:37:07
Okay this the very last from me on this

BBC reported

But earlier, the Rev Ewen Gilchrist, caretaker minister at Queen's Cross, said there should be more acceptance.

"Sexuality is something that the church doesn't have a good track record about", he said.

"We constantly lock it up and frown about it. Here's an opportunity to welcome it, to acknowledge the diversity of human sexuality and to bring that richness into our life and worship."

Well said and from a man of the frock.

But I really hate religion. x
231

Rolland,

23/05/2009 23:39:35
Jeez folks, let the sausage jockey's be.

If the brown nation like that type of Love let them be.
232

Utar Refson,

23/05/2009 23:43:05
#117 - Observer, since you haven't presented the contrary evidence I can't reply to it directly. Regarding the figure, it is cited in Josh McDowell's "New Evidence That Demands a Verdict". There are in excess of 50,000 manuscripts and manuscript fragments extant from the New Testament, making it one of the best attested texts in antiquity. Leviticus remains as history but not binding law, removing the need for Christians to follow the dietary, ritual purity and other civil laws in those texts.

On a general note, Christians do not need to refer to the OT for sexual morality authority, the Apostolic letters, such as the letter to the Roman Christians, state the expected sexual behaviour for Christians. Leviticus, like other parts of the OT are part of a covenant agreement with Israel that was fulfilled and set aside through Christ's death and resurrection.
233

Utar Refson,

23/05/2009 23:51:34
#173 - Michael, I'm afraid you're entirely wrong. We have original texts from the New Testament that date to the first century making them contemporary to the events they record. Even the most dissenting dates place the texts in the early 2nd century, a full 200 years before the council of Nicea. All these texts were in wide circulation throughout the Middle East, Europe and Asia Minor.

Those who deny Jesus existence are dubbed "Jesus Mythicists" and are treated by mainstream historians with the same contempt as fringe figures like conspiracy theorists.
234

awantapassport,

verysunnysoothcoast 24/05/2009 00:07:23
what's the big problem? If the man believes the same as his followers, they believe in him... who cares what he does in bed! It's an irrelevance.
235

awantapassport,

heaven 24/05/2009 00:08:07
fur goodness sake!
236

awantapassport,

24/05/2009 00:14:53
#234 jesus said 'contempt is in the eye of the beholder'... or was it 'remove the contempt from your own eye...' (he could have said skelf!! moron!!!
237

Scottish Canadian,

ottawa canada 24/05/2009 02:37:21
#88-Evolution does not design anything. It is undirected and responsive to changes in the environment. And reproductive advantage is but one reason for individuals to evolve. I'm fairly confident that humans did not evolve an opposable thumb to provide an advantage in courtship behaviour.
238

The Scot,

Singapore 24/05/2009 06:14:19
Exiled Scotsman (All of your comments)
Why are you so interested in the position of the Church of Scotland when in the first place, you don't even believe in God. The problem here is that the gay lobbyists like you are determined to highjack issues and jump on the gay bandwagon whatever it is, as a means of promoting homosexuality.
239

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 24/05/2009 10:09:45
A good day for contemporary social justice and a bad day for holy living/Biblical observance.

Well, the C of S has made its bed ... Still, the Anglicans have been in this position for some time now. (carte blanche for innuendos there!)

I (really) wonder whether vox dei or vox pop carried the verdict ... no, they're not the same! Perhaps there's going to be another Reformation since the present verdict must surely be counted as an indulgence.
240

Dave Scott,

Broughty Ferry 24/05/2009 10:19:25
Perhaps the Anglicans are in a different position ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/24/church-of-england-incitement-hatred
241

Scottish Canadian,

ottawa canada 24/05/2009 10:47:04
THE SCOT: The church is self-serving and interested only in its own preservation. It has always trod upon the freedom of enlightened people and will continue to do so. If there are people like "Exiled Scotsman" who fight against this oppression, then gay or not I'm with them.
The sooner we jettison this idea of god and salvation the better off we all will be.
242

Andrieu,

UK 24/05/2009 15:57:19
Can I just stop everyone for a moment, and take issue with this phrase 'promoting homosexuality':

There's nothing to promote. It's not an object, or something on a sale. It neither needs promotion nor admonishing - it simply is. A comparison would be saying "Promoting freckles" ; absurdo ad infinitum.

Perhaps I'm being naive on the matter, but I really don't see the issue. At all...
243

Grace Overlaw,

Aberdeen 25/05/2009 10:07:27
It's time for Grace in the Church. He who is without sin cast the first stone.
The congregation picked Scott for his excellent pastoral care skills - a dying art within the church. The very reason the church is declining - you get more care in the pub, sadly.
244

Ewan Oosami,

25/05/2009 13:16:49
The people who speak up for the poofters are most likely to be shirt-lifters themselves. It's a perverted lifestyle - nothing less
245

CANUCK,

25/05/2009 21:04:21
Many are quoting sections from the Old Teatment and its laws for application to society. Christ relieved us from the Law by giving us the New Commandment of Love and the New testement tells us how to Love, but Christ did draw a line when it came to sexual immorality.
For many of us "buggery and sodomey" amd all that goes with it falls under sexual immorality. When we read in the New Testement how a Leaders,Ministers,Elders or Priests are chosen for those positions in the Church and the qualifications needed, sexual morality, is a requirement. For those of us who follow this course in the church Homosexuals and Lesbians fail to fit into this chosen group,it is just a fact. The Church allows all to follow the faith and all to become menbers of the church and partake in eucharist but that does not mean everyone has a right to be chosen. It is not a question of Human or Indivitual rights it is just how our Faith,the Christian faith as per the New testement sets things out,there should be no arguement that is how it is. If it means a new and seperate church has to be set up then, let is be so, but outside the present Church/Kirk and its doctrin, it has to remain as it is,although many reforms are over due.
246

bcc820,

USA 26/05/2009 21:45:05
I just read an article that stated (by installing a homosexual as a minister): "At last, the church of Scotland has become a modern church for the 21st. Century." And that is true -- however -- in doing so, the former "church" of Scotland has ceased to be "the Church of God" and is now simply a "church of the culture."

 

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