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Pope forgives Lennon for saying Beatles were bigger than Jesus

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Published Date: 24 November 2008
IT WAS a little longer than Yesterday, but 42 years after John Lennon outraged Christians by claiming that The Beatles were more popular than Jesus, the Pope has generously decided to forgive him.
While the musician, who was murdered in 1980, imagined a world without a Heaven, wherever Lennon is now he can take comfort in the fact that the Vatican does not view him as an atheistic vandal but as a mere "show-off".

The L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican's official newspaper, this weekend published a long editorial to mark the 40th anniversary of the release of The Beatles' "White Album" in which the publication praised Lennon and the Fab Four and took a more understanding view of his controversial utterance.

In 1966, Lennon said in an interview: "Christianity will go. We're more popular than Jesus now. I don't know which will go first, rock 'n' roll or Christianity. Jesus was all right, but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It's them twisting it that ruins it for me."

In Saturday's edition of L'Osservatore Romano, the paper dismissed the Beatle's comments as a youthful joke: "The remark by John Lennon, which triggered deep indignation mainly in the United States, after many years sounds only like a 'boast' by a young working-class Englishman faced with unexpected success, after growing up in the legend of Elvis and rock and roll."

The paper went on to praise the band stating: "The talent of Lennon and the other Beatles gave us some of the best pages in modern pop music." It argued that only "snobs" would dismiss the band's songs, which had shown "an extraordinary resistance to the effects of time, providing inspiration for several generations of pop musicians".

Back in the 60s, Lennon's comments proved more problematic, particularly in America, where five months later a teen magazine called Datebook reprinted them on their front cover. In the deeply religious American south and midwest, conservative groups organised public burnings of Beatles albums, radio stations banned their songs and some promoters cancelled concerts. The Klu Klux Klan even issued a death threat against the Beatle.

Lennon was forced to apologise at a press conference in Chicago.

He said: "I was not saying whatever they're saying I was saying. I'm sorry I said it really. I never meant it to be a lousy anti-religious thing. I apologise if that will make you happy. I still do not know quite what I've done. I've tried to tell you what I did do, but if you want me to apologise, if that will make you happy, then OK, I'm sorry."

The article in L'Osservatore Romano is an attempt by the Vatican to address the wider world. In the past the paper only ran stories chronicling the Pope's daily events as well as extracts from his speeches. However, it now runs articles on entertainment and world affairs.

In the same edition the paper printed a headline: "Twilight of the gods" in which it regretted the disappearance of the 1950s when stars were mysterious, and complained about the current cult of the celebrity.

Lennon later wrote that he was grateful for the furore as it led to the end of his touring days. He wrote: "If I hadn't said that The Beatles were 'bigger than Jesus' and upset the very Christian Klu Klux Klan, well, Lord, I might still be up there with all the other performing fleas! God bless America. Thank you, Jesus."


FACT BOX

JOHN LENNON is not alone in the musical world when it comes to having a run-in with organised religion. Madonna has had a turbulent relationship with the Catholic Church, not helped by her using the name of the mother of Jesus Christ as her stage name. In her video for Like A Prayer, she was seduced by a black Christ, while her current world tour has her 'crucified' on a diamante-studded cross, wearing a crown of thorns.

Marilyn Manson released an album called Antichrist Superstar, and in 2004 organised an exhibition of his art including Trismegistus, a large, three-headed Christ. When he appeared in Italy, he was arrested for indecency.

Sinead O'Connor once tore a photograph of Pope John Paul II into pieces. Five years later, she asked him to forgive her for the "ridiculous act".

The full article contains 727 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

I-Mac,

24/11/2008 00:19:15
"Madonna has had a turbulent relationship with the Catholic Church, not helped by her using the name of the mother of Jesus Christ as her stage name."

Madonna is her real first name.

As for the RC Church, for such a huge and powerful organisation isn't it a bit uptight and insecure about trivia?
2

Gina Gibson,

Wales 24/11/2008 00:45:36
I am sure if John Lennon were still alive he would have told the pope where to shove his forgiveness!
3

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

24/11/2008 00:50:15
Who cares!

Lennon and the Beatles were bigger than Jesus. More people believe in them than believe in the stupid pope and his unforgiving two faced excuse for religion. How can a so called church with so much wealth stand by and watch the starvation and suffering that goes on in this world? If it truly represented this thing called Jesus then it would be a poor church without the trappings of power quietly living with the teachings of its fictitious god and helping those less fortunate!
4

,

24/11/2008 01:06:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

jerrymanders,

24/11/2008 01:11:49
Yeh, yeh, yeh.
6

JaE_in_Oz,

24/11/2008 02:03:21
It is definitely time to forgive the pope for the intemperate and ill informed remarks of his predecessor. Lennon was right.
7

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 24/11/2008 03:15:45
Just because the Pope will forgive John Lennon does not mean we have to forgive Brown for "The End of Boom and Bust"

Dear Prudence, what have you done
Dear Prudence, been lying to long
The markets down, the pounds is too
It's beautiful and so are you
Dear Prudence where has all the money gone

Dear Prudence open up your eyes
Dear Prudence debts to the skies
The money's gone, the birds will sing
That you're the cause of everything
Dear Prudence won't you open up your eyes?

Look around round round
Look around round round
Look around round round

Dear Prudence let me see you smile
Dear Prudence like a crocodile
The clouds will be full of rain
Led by a man without a brain
Dear Prudence won't you let me see you smile?

Dear Prudence, won't you set a date
Dear Prudence, for a new mandate
The polls are up, the torie's screwed
It's beautiful and so are you
Dear Prudence or are you to afraid
8

Charlie Ferrier,

Hamilton 24/11/2008 03:34:56
What a cheek. Who does this pope think he is - The beatles were better known than Jesus at the time John Lenon made the statement - since when is it blasphemous to state a simple fact which does not in any way deride the religion.

When is this pope going to admit his complicity in covering up the child molesters in the church - when is he going to ask for forgiveness in his part.

When is he going to ask for forgiveness for how the catholic church in part condoned the holocaust.

Jesus was a jew - what this church subborned in his name against his kinsmen was unforgiveable - i would think they would be eternally condemmed from entering into heaven.

On a lighter note - the beatles are probably still better known than Jesus throughout the world
9

Another Saturday Night,

24/11/2008 04:16:52
Is this anything to do with the fact that Vactican has been negotiating with Michael Jackson to buy the Beatles' music rights...

The Pope presonally prefers Velvet Undground, but was advised against making too much of the fact before Christmas
10

Here's to the haters,

Australia 24/11/2008 05:17:25
Hmm, where do I start?
#10 - Benedict is an ex-Nazi? Sure about that? Was he ever a Nazi?
It's a rhetorical question - the answer's "No". So you're indulging in a wee bit of slander there aren't you? Nice.
The Pope can take any critique you might have of him - I'd say though, like any of us, he'd like the critique to actually be factual rather than made-up.

11

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 05:20:39
#8 - good questions. As far as admitting complicity - again, to what exactly are you referring? Or are you just throwing mud and seeing if it'll stick? I'm not denying the shameful scandal of child abuse perpetrated by some mebers of the Catholic Church, but I am saying that comments like yours achieve... pretty much nothing. As far as comments about the sex abuse scandal go, perhaps you remember the Pope's words on his recent trip to the States? It's a start, huh? (Google it if you haven't read them.)
12

Another Saturday Night,

24/11/2008 05:21:02
#11

This is a John Lennon thread.
13

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 05:26:33
again- #8 "When is he going to ask for forgiveness for how the catholic church in part condoned the holocaust."

What exactly do you mean? "...the catholic church in part condoned the holocaust." Evaluating what the Church (and the US govt, the British govt, the French, Australian... etc) did or did not do during the Holocaust is a hugely complex task - far more complex than your simplistic comment here suggests. Could the Church have done more? Undoubtedly - the Church is not perfect - it's made up of imperfect people like you and I who sometimes (often?) aren't as courageous, loving or decisive as they could be. You know, of course, that Pope Pius XII (elected Pope in 1939) directly saved many Jews - by making out false baptismal certificates, by giving money, by arranging passage. You did know that of course, or have you only read dodgey anti-catholic websites that set out to slander, not tell truth?
14

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 05:28:48
Well, it would seem it was a "let's all slag off the pope" thread more than a "lennon" thread, wouldn't it?
15

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

24/11/2008 05:30:26
#11 & 12

My heart goes out to you. I feel so sorry that you feels it is right to defend greed and corruptness. There is no excuse for the Catholic Church and its papacy to live in splendour and richness with so much poverty. The Catholic Church shows its hypocracy for all things related to Jesus and God and the teachings of the Bible, whilst it holds onto its amassed fortune.

No "Here's to the haters".....you can not defend the indefensible!
16

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

24/11/2008 05:37:58
The Pope as far as I am concerned is a useless old man that needs to die to find out the awful truth!

What is the truth?

Well you die, that it! Nothing else... you simply die and turn to dust, nothing remains, you don't go anywhere else, you don't end up in some fanabidossi place in the sky living in eternal happiness.

You die....full stop, end of story, bi bi, tatta eternal darkkness ....not that you would know cos youd be deid!
17

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 05:41:00
#4 -
"It's harder for us to forgive the catholic church for centuries of physical and mental abuse of children."

Say what?

"For living in luxury while their flock starve to death."
Easy to say, sounds good and gutsy, but what exactly does it mean? Who's living in luxury? Who's starving?
Would that be the priests getting shot in Russia, or beaten to death in India? Would that be my parish priests, living in a house so cold they have to wear wooly hats and jackets inside in winter? And where do you live? I'm betting you have more money than you need, more food than you can eat right now - how many of "the starving flock" are you feeding?

"For condeming millions to a fiery horrible death in hell for being unbelievers."
Hmm - could you give me a reference for where the Church teaches this? You can't? Oh. Oh well.

"For being given a hearing in the highest courts/ governments in the land when their beliefs have no more truth than santa claus."

Perhaps it's because for 2000 years some of the best minds the human race has produced have wrestled with what it is to be human, what it is to seek truth, what it is to love and to be true, good and beautiful. What the Church believes didn't fall out of thin air. It's been debated and chewed over and refined and distilled over two millenia, and it makes sense. That's why, and rightly so, the Catholic Church is given a hearing in "the highest courts in the land."
18

Another Saturday Night,

24/11/2008 05:41:15
The church is too modern for me these days
19

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 05:49:00
#16 -

"My heart goes out to you."
Yep, OK. Save it.
" I feel so sorry that you feels it is right to defend greed and corruptness."
Nope - I'm not defending greed and corruptness. I'm trying to get to the guts of these accusations, and suggest that they are not much more than the same tired old regurgitations that pop up wherever the Catholic Church is mentioned.
What greed? What corruptnesss? It's easy to use these words - to what, *exactly* are you referring?

"There is no excuse for the Catholic Church and its papacy to live in splendour and richness with so much poverty."
Again - exactly what do you mean? I'm guessing you're talking about St Peter's etc. Do you have any idea how much it costs to run, preserve, insure and maintain those buildings and the art contained within? The Vatican ain't turning a profit!
When Pope John Paul II died he left behind an estate consisting of ... what? He was Pope, so he must have had cars, gold, houses, money, treasures...? Nope - he left behind some paperwork and the clothes he died in. Yep, a greedy and corrupt old man for sure.

"The Catholic Church shows its hypocracy for all things related to Jesus and God and the teachings of the Bible, whilst it holds onto its amassed fortune."

A wealth of artwork and treasures for sure - held (and restored, maintained, insured, preserved at great expense) for the world; for the good of humanity. If the Vatican didn't look after all that loot, where do you think it woyuld be? In the hands of private collecters, never to see the light of day again. Again, the Vatican isn't making money of it, believe me. Think about it!

"No "Here's to the haters".....you can not defend the indefensible!"

I'm not trying to defend the indefensible. That would be stupid.
20

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 05:55:33
"The Pope as far as I am concerned is a useless old man that needs to die to find out the awful truth!"

Nice. Real kind. And it's Catholics that are the nasty ones, huh?
Benedict is in fact recognised (yes, by people who aren't Catholic too) as a man with a towering intellect and a deep wisdom - among other things. Hmm, sure, useless if you believe that the only things that matter are the things that can make you money - infinitely useful in a pope, however.

"What is the truth?
Well you die, that it! Nothing else... you simply die and turn to dust, nothing remains, you don't go anywhere else, you don't end up in some fanabidossi place in the sky living in eternal happiness.

You die....full stop, end of story, bi bi, tatta eternal darkkness ....not that you would know cos youd be deid!"

I went to an atheist wedding the other day - there was no reception/after-party... everyone just kinda... ceased to be there. (Apologies to tfd.)

You seem pretty sure of what happens at death, and after. I guess you've thought about it, gone as far as reason will take you, and then taken a leap of faith.
I've kind of done the same, following the reasoning of the great Christian thinkers - then, after the leap of faith, kept thinking.
21

Another Saturday Night,

24/11/2008 05:56:54
I prefer the old hymns.

Some of the newer ones fail in realting to real human emotions.

22

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 05:58:24
#8 "On a lighter note - the beatles are probably still better known than Jesus throughout the world"

On a lighter note - that would be interesting to survey, wouldn't it?
23

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 06:05:00
#22 - While I share your like of old hymns, I'm not sure that "relating to real human emotions" is the aim of a hymn. I would think the aim of a hymn is to talk to God or about him - and in that it'll relate to what is real and human.
24

Another Saturday Night,

24/11/2008 06:05:32
John Lennon fell in love with music when signing in the Boy's Brigade band.

Try to telling that to some of the "reformers"

25

Amani_Bunduki,

Canberra 24/11/2008 06:07:38
The Pope really wants to pull his head in. He is an anachronism. The power of the Catholic church resides largely in it's ability to shape people's narrow interpretations of the four gospels it acknowledges as Truth. There were more than forty gospels.

Christians are so defensive. If they were really 100% secure in their Faith they would not be or feel threatened by anything anyone said. The Beatles probably were more popular than Jesus at that time.
26

Another Saturday Night,

24/11/2008 06:08:31
A wee John Lennon joke.

When playing the cards the other day, one of the "characters round the table" said, you must be lucky in love then".

"Aye, like Dennis Thatcher and John Lennon"
27

kpm,

unsworth 24/11/2008 06:27:39
Plenty of Bigots seem to be crawling out of the woodwork today.
28

Guga II,

Rockall 24/11/2008 06:29:12
#11.

Get your facts right mate. He was a Nazi. He was in the Hitler Youth, then later he was in the Wermacht. Later on he was a deserter from the army. So, he was a Nazi, then a coward.
29

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 06:30:21
#28 What's your defintion of "bigot"?
30

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 06:31:51

#29 And your spurces would be...? Or did you read that on wikipedia?

Oh so easy to call someone names, and you seem to do it with such relish - and *I'm* the bigot?
31

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 06:33:16
"sources" I mean - not spurces, nor spruces for that matter. Sources! What have you read that leads you to conclude that Ratzinger ever subscribed to Nazism?
32

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 06:42:23
#26 "The Pope really wants to pull his head in."

Well, he never wanyted to be Pope. He was looking forward to a nice quiet and well-deserved retirement when he was elected "Servant of the Servants of God" in early 2005. He's recently declined a trip to Mexico, much to the disappointment of Mexican Catholics. I'm sure he often wants to be able to just "pull his head in." But more than that he wants to talk about how God is love (which was the title of his first encycical as Pope - read it)
"He is an anachronism. The power of the Catholic church resides largely in it's ability to shape people's narrow interpretations of the four gospels it acknowledges as Truth. There were more than forty gospels."
I don't really understand what you're saying here - you might have to re-state it for me.
"There were more than thirty gospels" - probably more in fact. But the Church went through a process of deciding what was scripture and what wasn't, eventually choosing the four we know, use, love and live today.
The Church doesn't have any power at all to make people believe what it does about the Gospel - is that what you're saying? The Church proposes, it doesn't impose.
It certainly cant force anyone to believe.

"Christians are so defensive. If they were really 100% secure in their Faith they would not be or feel threatened by anything anyone said. The Beatles probably were more popular than Jesus at that time."

Yep, good point - I've always felt that Lennon's comment was mere showboating. If you've seen live footage of it, you can't help but think otherwise. He has this glint in his eye - he knows he's strirring sh*t and he's loving it. I've certainly never felt threatened by it. It's either true or it isn't (or was or wasn't if you like) and so doesn't hold any threat.
33

Slack-jawed in disbelief,

Philadelphia 24/11/2008 06:43:00
#28 & 30 et seq.,

Bigots indeed. I wish that I could say that the article and thread of commentary were not predictable. However, given what I've learned from my experience with the Scotsman online, it isn't (and my pen-name is quickly becoming an misnomer). The article is a bit silly (which the Vatican paper's attempt to be "hip" probably invites), and dripping with unfortunate sarcasm, but much of the commentary is simply full of the hate and intolerance with which it criticises the other side. Another case of what I call left-wing "projection." The land of my forefathers is in sad shape, if this is any indication. Not only has it lost its faith, but it is well on its way to losing its reason -- if it hasn't done so already.
34

Angleland Isover,

24/11/2008 06:43:43
The pope has and his ilk have had over 2000 years to make the world a better place. if you weigh up the bad against the good then its plain to see they have squandered their right to be listened to. 42 years to forgive someone who never harmed a soul and a free house swap for child abusers, very christian and typical of the catholic church.
35

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 06:52:42
#35 - as far as "weighing up the bad against the good" goes - I think your scales are faulty.

I think you need to go back to your history books.
36

Jonboy,

24/11/2008 06:59:11
Jesus?

Who he?
37

Angleland Isover,

24/11/2008 07:07:25
When the catholic church had the power of life or death that is what kept the people faithful. Nowadays all they have left going for them is inbred guilt. What percentage of catholics or protestants stop going to church as soon as their parents are no longer able to force them?.
38

kpm,

unsworth 24/11/2008 07:07:56
30 a Pejorative term.
39

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 07:08:08
#34 -
" (which the Vatican paper's attempt to be "hip" probably invites)"
I don't really think it's a matter of the paper trying to be 'hip' - Catholics are interested in art, and art in the 21st century includes, of course, pop music. (And THE modern art form, cinema - and the Vatican put out a "45 films of note" list in 1995 to mark the centenary of film. The US Bishops have film reviews on their website too. Not trying to be hip, just to speak truth.)
And things like this are always written up as "The Pope says" (remember "Pope issues new deadly sins"? Nope, wasn't the Pope, it was a priest somewhere else in the Vatican) when, although the paper is indeed "the official Vatican newspaper" the article most probably wasn't written by Benedict (I'm assuming - like everyone here, I haven't read the original article) but by one of the paper's journos - or editor, or whatever. But it's not the official, wax-sealed decree promulgated from the Pope's desk that the Scotsman makes it out to be.

"and dripping with unfortunate sarcasm, but much of the commentary is simply full of the hate and intolerance with which it criticises the other side. Another case of what I call left-wing "projection." The land of my forefathers is in sad shape, if this is any indication. Not only has it lost its faith, but it is well on its way to losing its reason -- if it hasn't done so already."

But it's always put forward as so reasonable and rational. I've just finished reading some of the "new Atheists" - Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris - and they are trumpeted as the epitome of reason and rationalism when in fact they are pabulum for the unthinming masses.
40

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 07:14:53
#35 yada yada 'inbred guilt'. It's a cliche, perpetuated by Hollywood. No Catholics I know fit the stereotype of the fearful, handwringing sap that you seem to refer to. They're either Catholic or they're not - I mean they live it or they reject it, and if they reject it there's not a lot of guilt. 21st Century man doesn't, I think, feel guilt anything like people did fifty years ago. So "guilt keeps them there" jusyt doesn't wash. I feel guilt when I've done something shameful, and it's a good emotion - it pushes me to attempt to fix up what I've screwed up or restore the relationship I've broken or whatever, and then I get over it and get on with life. With a then-happier life, because I've frecognised a wrong and gone about righting it. Guilt? It's not a bad thing.

"When the catholic church had the power of life or death that is what kept the people faithful. Nowadays all they have left going for them is inbred guilt. What percentage of catholics or protestants stop going to church as soon as their parents are no longer able to force them?."
Well, I dont know - you brought it up - you tell me. What is the percentage?

My point is - so what? Isn't that a good thing? People making their own decisions? The Catholic Church is all for that - it's the only way personal decisions can be made - funny, that.
41

Slack-jawed in disbelief,

Philadelphia 24/11/2008 07:15:16
40 - good points all.
42

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 07:15:52
#41 :)
So, Lennon, yeah, OK... well, Lennon. Yep.
43

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 07:19:16
As far as the original article goes - the issue for the 19th is online - so I'm guessing Saturday's one will be up in a day or two. Or people could get themselves down to their local Catholic bookstore and pick up a paper copy. Maybe. Do they have Catholic bookstores in Scotland? I don't know.
44

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 07:20:38
#46 - no, I thought you were joking, and I made a joke back - or tried.
45

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 07:24:47
#45 - yep, good point. The distinction between libel and slander I mean, not the accusation that the young Benedict was a Nazi. No-one has yet given any sources besides their own say so - "but it's true" - that that was the case. It's merely tired old libellous mud-slinging. Perhaps we could call it Dawkinsian rhetoric - a lurid story jazzed up and trotted out for the people to lap up.
46

Slack-jawed in disbelief,

Philadelphia 24/11/2008 07:25:20
#45 - As a solicitor, I can say that "defamation" or "calumny" would cover the Nazi accusation either way. We should indeed "go there," since even the left-wing media don't agree with your "facts." If anything is "Nazi," it's the penchant for some to repeat lies, like this one about the Pope's background, often enough that they're taken for truth (to paraphrase Herr Goebels).
47

albanman,

24/11/2008 07:25:38
The heading is totally misleading as the article says nothing about the Pope forgiving Lennon. For those of you with long enough memories, the Catholic Church said nothing when Lennon made his statement about Christ - and it certainly did not condemn the Beatle. As the Scotsman article says, it was the Southern USA fundamentalists (mostly BaptistProtestants) who reacted against the Beatles. It's time for the anti-Catholic brigade to get off their high horses.
48

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 07:26:00
And so they do. He was a Nazi! Ooh! I knew it! Those horrible Catholics and their Nazi pope!
49

,

24/11/2008 07:26:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
50

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 07:29:55
#50 - yep. No attempt to enagage with the man or what he believes, thinks, feels or represents; little attempt to *think* about what he stands for: calumny will do, it seems.
51

Mcsnagpile,

24/11/2008 07:30:51


The Pope will be happy he got a mention and plenty of blogs.

Most people can trace there religious affiliation back to the dictates of the local laird in fact they might even find a genetic line as some local lairds took first conjugal rights as well. There are very few people in the world who acquired their religion by direct conversion.

If there were a God he would be conversing on direct line and not through the mumbo jumbo merchants and certainly not through the local thugs.
52

Slack-jawed in disbelief,

Philadelphia 24/11/2008 07:32:55
#53

Indeed. However, since he has yet to rise from the dead (unless he's on tour with Elvis), let's see if anyone remembers him in 2000 years, unlike that "other guy" whose Church has been getting bashed.
53

Louis Catorze,

24/11/2008 07:35:17
"Here's to the haters"......2 hours you've been on here. You do realise that some people are just winding you up now?

Mind you, it seems eaily done.
54

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 07:35:21
#55 I'm not sure that proves anything.
And what about the people who did "acquire their religion by direct coversion"? Does that prove or dis-prove anything?

(My conversion was pretty indirect - all over the place in fact (and it seems to me it wasn't "acquired" but gifted) - what about me?)
55

Slack-jawed in disbelief,

Wallingford 24/11/2008 07:36:53
#55

From which Laird, then, did you acquire your peculiar views? I credit you for being consistent with your beliefs: you eliminate the middle-man when it comes to mumbo-jumbo.
56

eric,

24/11/2008 07:38:18
The catholic church Incorp,silly little man.punk went the full hog with t shirts jesus is a stiff and Blondies Debbie harry wore top saying jesus looks like me.not to forget sinead o conner,who tore up photo of pope in usa on live tv saying fight the real enemy.she was talking about her own abuse at the hands of the faith within her own family.
57

Here's to the haters,

24/11/2008 07:43:41
#57 ""Here's to the haters"......2 hours you've been on here."

What, are you trying to embarrass me or something? What a no-life nerd, two hours trying to defend his Church, hee hee.
Two hours well spent I reckon - even if just to enjoy winding down from work. Saw a link to this site on facebook etc etc and here I am. Disappointed in the level of thought from erstwhile opponents of the Church - but then that often happens. As much wooly thinking among atheist Scotsman-readers as there is among Christians, it seems.

"You do realise that some people are just winding you up now?
Mind you, it seems eaily done."

I can generally see when people are winding me up (I think!)- doesn't bother me. Same old, same old.
58

Louis Catorze,

24/11/2008 07:52:51
"..atheist Scotsman-readers.." #57?

So, everyone that doesn't agree with your somewhat quaint ideas on life after death (and indeed life before death) is an aetheist.

They sound more like free thinkers too me.
59

Heather B,

Anstruther 24/11/2008 08:19:37
He also sang "God is a concept by which we measure our pain" and "I don't believe in Bible" - I'm sure in another couple of decades we'll have a patronising wee press release out about that too.

Anyway, how come the Vatican are forgiving him - are they the sole traders in dealing with Jesus? I'm sure there's other religions out there with an interest.
60

Stephen101,

Not a top priority 24/11/2008 08:19:58
Would the Pope not be better employed apologising for the fascist Popes over the years who supported the Nazis and the pogrom of the Jews?

Saying nice things about John Lennon does NOT make you a nice man.
61

Mcsnagpile,

24/11/2008 08:21:16
At the end of the day, all middle men want is their 10 percent.
62

The Glasgow Ranger,

Edinburgh. 24/11/2008 08:26:27
John will be able to rest in peace now.
63

The Glasgow Ranger,

Edinburgh 24/11/2008 08:27:54
#64 - excellent point.

And for all those cases of alleged sex abuse within the Church?
64

Angleland Isover,

24/11/2008 08:34:45
42 years in limbo,. thank god for christian forgiveness.
65

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/11/2008 08:37:28
#31, etc

You should read "The God Delusion" (Richard Dawkins). It contains many horrific accounts of child abuse at the hands of the Catholic church. He glosses over the obvious stuff and talks a lot more about the mental abuse that's been carried out for centuries, right up to the modern day.
66

Proximaking,

Aberdeen 24/11/2008 08:42:23
It never fails to amaze me that we live in a world of invisible conceptual friends in heaven that every right thinking person derides as utter tossh but those same people don't deride the electric field, the spin field and the magnetic field, imaginary concepts all and without which we could do nothing or see nothing. No matter how powerful your microscope or whatever its type you will never use it to see these fields only their effects and couldn't that also be said for the top concept of God? I remember reading once in relation to getting children to behave a bit better that a father's sacred duty was to teach without being seen to teach (otherwise you cow them with your intellect, you knock them back) and to lead without being seen to lead (otherwise they feel they have no freedom and they go the wrong way, but who would knowingly let his kids walk over a cliff just because they were thick?) now if you believe in such things wouldn't it be pretty normal that the top concept would do the same with us? Too many people see "real" things as real but they are no more real than any other concept as everything you do and see depends ultimately on what "You" are made of and unless you haven't discovered it yet "You" are not a lump of brain "You" are what you think, ...... you are conceptual so how can the world .... and it's creator, be otherwise? A games disk shows 3-D pictures on a screen but the game is stored in zero dimensional code with no beginning and no end once you are in the game. All of modern Physics and philosophy of mind papers points to us living in a shared conceptual reality and only a fool would slag off the top concept in such a reality, ..... even parents run out of patience sometimes. lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
67

Proximaking,

Aberdeen 24/11/2008 08:50:44
And of course child abuse is wrong and God wouldn't allow it if he/she/it existed but you forget isn't the priest also a child to God? We see things from a very low perspective and if we stay in this low perspective how can we rise above it? Easy to say if you have never been abused no doubt. If both abused and abuser could return to the scene of the crime maybe something could be salvaged but if you don't believe in a conceptualk reality that would be impossible.
68

Angleland Isover,

24/11/2008 08:54:52
#70 Pointing out the failings of the catholic church or organised religion in general doesn't necessary mean you don't believe in the concept of god.
69

ChinaBear,

Hong Kong 24/11/2008 09:08:23
Great thread, great stuff!!!

For my money, most people have had enough of the Pope and the church he represents. Throughout history and right up to the present day, we've seen his institution make terrible mistakes that have cost millions of lives and many more millions of people their well being. I'm not aware of any balancing benefits, just the con of forgiveness and a better life wrapped up in a mixture of religious threats.

Why do we have to keep on forgiving these terrible pariahs of our society? Why can't we stop turning blind eye after blind eye to the present incumbents of the church, only to be forced to forgive them later after they've lived their easy life at other peoples expense?

Wind up the whole institution now and distribute the massive wealth to those who've been forced to live the con for generations.

As for Lennon, he'd lose no sleep on the subject, that's for sure.
70

57vintage,

Keith 24/11/2008 09:41:07
OK, so the Vatican likes The White Album, but I want to know the contents of their ideal 15 track CD-R of post-Beatles' solo stuff.

I'm working on mine and a tribute band to perform it live. I wonder if there's any chance of a gig at the Vatican?
71

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/11/2008 09:43:08
#70

The thing about "the electric field, the spin field and the magnetic field" is that they can be demonstrated experimentally, and their behaviours can be studied and predicted. None of those things is true of God.
72

TREV,

Poland 24/11/2008 10:00:18
Personally I found Johnny Boy a little bit patronising, asking me if I could "imagine no possession, I wonder if you can" whilst prancing around in his fur coat, in his big mansion in the video.

"Imagine no great big white rolls royce, I wonder if HE can"
73

Guga II,

Rockall 24/11/2008 10:15:40
#31.

Try the BBC web site.
74

Black Five,

edinburgh 24/11/2008 10:31:21
Can`t see any comments for the Pope.A religion that is well out of step and based on fear.Lennon was right ,he needs no forgiveness.
75

Nellie,

Liverpool 24/11/2008 10:34:07
#29 Guga II

He would have been CONSCRIPTED into the Wehrmacht ("defence force"), the German armed services. He didn't make a choice. People could say, "Thanks but I think I'd rather not fight, not if they wanted to stay alive, and most young men would have done." That would not even mean he was a member of the Nazi Party, just another grunt in the German Army, Navy or Luftwaffe. He MIGHT have been a member of the SS because the SS was an army; but it was largely independent from the larger body of the Wehrmacht, and there is no suggestion that he was in the SS anyway.

Besides, I think you judge too fast. Whether one chose or not to be a member of a particular group during the pre-war and during really was often a matter of life or death. As an example, I know of a man who was forcible conscripted into the Soviet Army. He didn't have a choice. He was captured by the Germans and, as you may know, Russian soldiers only had a small chance of surviving German POW camps. (I read somewhere thaty something like 75% of all Russian soldiers captured died in the POW camps because they were largely without shelter, had poor food and in sub-zero temperatures. (And of those who survived a great many were shot by the Soviet Amy when they were "liberated" or handed over by the Allies because Stalin had said anyone who hadn't fought to the death was a traitor!) This man was ill. So, he was dying in the POW camp. However, he was offered the chance to live if he agreed to join a Russian unit of the German Army. Hmmmm ... die or live ... difficult choice for a young man ... NOT! So, he didn't voluntarily join the German Army, just trying to stay alive. His Army unit was subsequently made a part of the Waffen SS. But he didn't *join* the SS! He had no choice in the matter. That is a taste of the choices, if you can call them that, which people had during that time.
76

Nellie,

Liverpool 24/11/2008 10:46:18
Not sure why John Lennon is considered to be such a saint. While preaching love, he was not above treating people with contempt, he behaved like one who was self-obsessed, he could show little consideration for the feelings of some people, knowing he would cause offence, and some of this remarks about Brian Epstein might easily be construed as homophobic.
77

Few Against Many,

24/11/2008 10:46:53
How dull, When I read the headline I thought it was the pope forgiving Neil Lennon for one of his misdemeanours.
78

Nellie,

Liverpool 24/11/2008 10:50:47
#73 ChinaBear

Yes, I am sure you are right that Lennon would not have lost sleep over this issue but that is because he didn't seem to care about anyone else's thoughts, beliefs or feelings other than his own. Perhaps I misjudged him but my impression has always been that he wasn't a nice person, and certainly not deserving of having an airport named after him!
79

MT,

24/11/2008 10:51:09
Just for all your information, The pope was an anti aircrafr gunner in the German army in WWII. You know, shooting down our airmen when they were trying to drop bombs on Germany. I think he qualifies as a nazi.
80

57vintage,

Keith 24/11/2008 10:54:18
#80

There is no doubt that he could be an a$shole, but which of us have never been?

Wasn't a lot of his early solo work hairshirt harrowing as he worked out his demons? Didn't he, in his later solo work continually express regret for his as$holery towards Cynthia, Yoko and others?

81

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 24/11/2008 10:58:20
Lennon used to talk a hell of a lot of sense. His comment was an accurate observation---there WERE more people at that time who were into the Beatles than attended church regularly.
82

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 24/11/2008 11:06:09
80 Who's treating Lennon like a Saint ? He was anything but. I don't know why the Church think Lennon fans would give two hoots what they think, i don't.
83

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/11/2008 11:06:25
#83

Is it possible that you are equating all German military personnel with Nazis? If so, that is incorrect. If he was indeed an anti-aircraft gunner, then he sounds more like a young man trying to defend his home and country to me. What young man wouldn't do that? Unless, of course, he was a member of the Nazi party. I neither know nor care about the pope, and am not defending him in the slightest - I just don't like seeing sweeping and inaccurate generalisations.
84

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 24/11/2008 11:08:05
82 Who cares if he was a nice person, he was a great musician and writer.
85

Boab,

Glasgow 24/11/2008 11:48:18
By my calculations, the Vatican will forgive Marduk for their song 'Christraping Black Metal' around 2042.
86

Boab,

Glasgow 24/11/2008 11:51:24
Although come to think of it, it's on an album called 'Panzer Division Marduk' ...
87

Osama Bin Liner,

edinburgh 24/11/2008 12:05:30
Bloke in dress forgives dead bloke for humourous remark over fictitious character.
88

Rabhairt,

Cannons Creek AUSTRALIA 24/11/2008 12:11:37
WELL THANK YOU VERY MUCH MR POPE NOW I WON'T HAVE TO BURN ALL OF YOUR RECORDS, THOSE IDIOTIC AMERICAN GOD BOTHERERS WHO CARRIED ON AT THE TIME GAVE ME ONE OF THE BIGGEST LAUGHS OF MY LIFE; JOHN WAS A GREAT MAN, MUSICIAN AND I MISS HIM STILL, I HOPE HIS MURDERER NEVER LEAVES PRISON BECAUSE HE IS NOT WORTH THE SAME TREATMENT HE GAVE JOHN. BIG RABBIE.
89

Abel Magwitch,

24/11/2008 12:33:58
Times are tough. Over in the USA the TV evangelists are chortling with glee and telling their viewers that the world as we know it is about to end and the Second Coming is imminent. If they are right, we'll soon see for ourselves whether Jesus is more popular than the Beatles.

Maybe the Pope could give us the latest update on the Second Coming? Those American telepreachers seem pretty sure of themselves.
90

Dancer,

Edinburgh 24/11/2008 12:38:13
Here's to the haters
Is the Pope your pal?
91

Few Against Many,

24/11/2008 12:39:27
92, I think that you will find that there was a guy called Jesus who ran about the middle east. Whether he was the son of god or just a social reformer is another issue but he certainly wasn’t fictitious .
92

Osama Bin Liner,

edinburgh 24/11/2008 12:39:41
#94. That's interesting about the TVE's. Presumably they are telling their flocks to stop sending money as it won't be any use any more.
93

Ken Mare,

Edinburgh 24/11/2008 12:40:36
Ah....nothing like a story about the pope to bring all the catholic bashers out.

what an open-minded, progressive nation we are - is it any wonder so few people treat scotland seriously?

surely bigotry must die out sometime....?
94

Calum Crubag,

Alba 24/11/2008 12:46:33
Sign petition to get BBC Alba on Freeview! Why should BBC money only help Sky viewers. BBC Alba apart from offering a Gaelic service, is first to show SPL games and also broadcasts live rugby and shinty.

http://epetitions.scottish.parliament.uk/view_petition.asp?PetitionID=289
95

Dr Egg,

Vaticorn 24/11/2008 12:48:14
And forgive The Pope...
96

57vintage,

Keith 24/11/2008 12:50:21
#98

I am not a Catholic basher, although I would admit to having bashed the bishop in my youth.

I'm enjoying the comments both for and against organised religion though. Mostly against, I have to admit, for I'm very much an atheist since being hounded to Sunday School and Bible Class by my late mother until I told her 'no more'.

Can I ask why it's OK for one's political beliefs to be the subject of satire, ridicule and general comment but religious faith is generally held as taboo?
97

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 24/11/2008 12:58:20
Did BenedictXVI ACTUALLY say this?

From my readings of other news sources - notably The Times and BBC News - it would seems there is a new editor at "L'Ossevatore Romano" who wants to update, modernise, and make that Romish rag more "topical"

This new editor wants to inflict an entertainment section on this Vatican mouthpiece and UNLESS this is an ACTUAL editorial vetted by the Pope one can only place any criticism at the feet of the editor.

As for the other article quoted on "The Twilight of the Gods" doesn't this have unpleasant connotations with Richard Wagner's opera "Gotterdammerung"?

I wonder how long this editor will last?

I never thought that I would be defending the Bishop of Rome but in this case I think he has been given a raw deal in this instance.
98

Few Against Many,

Drinking Super T under the George the VI 24/11/2008 13:01:55
It's only Catholics and Muslims that take things so seriously. I would quite happily tell a Jew a joke about a rabbi but never a Muslim joke about an Imam or a Catholic a joke about the pope. No doubt some hyper sensitive soul will have this post modded (or at least attempt to) because they have taken offense to me expressing my honest and harmless opinion.
99

AJ Fife,

24/11/2008 13:03:01
It's good to know the current Pope is groovy and knows where it's at man.

I'm sure I read his favourite band was Sparks. I think he had a soft spot for the keyboard player; he was probably reminded of an old friend!
100

,

24/11/2008 13:10:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
101

Few Against Many,

24/11/2008 13:15:07
105 I wonder, that's my favorate DVD as well.
102

Nellie,

Liverpool 24/11/2008 13:32:55
#83 MT

Sorry, but that is utter rubbish. Being an anti-aircraft gunner doesn't make the guy a Nazi, not even an EX-Nazi! Indeed, it might make him a defended against "terrorism" because cannot remove from your equation that almost all the airmen of Bomber Command who took part in air raids ordered by Air Officer Commanding Arthur “Bomber” Harris. Harris (also known as “Butcher” Harris by airmen in the RAF, was comfortable with the ethics of Prof Frederick Linden’s idea of attacking major German industrial cities with the intention of deliberately dropping lots of small explosives and incendiaries to create firestorms, to destroy high density areas of homes and houses (not factories) as was possible, by using explosive bombs and incendiaries. Yes, high density areas of population, of homes, not factories. So, their ultimate target was civilians. Civilians. Non-combatants, and they weren't just "collatoral damage". They were the intended targets. So, what shall we call them? Terrorists - because that it what terrorists like Al Qaida do? Shall we call them "War criminals" because that is what we called German SS Officers when they massacred civilians for helping THEIR enemies?
By the way, readers from the USA - you might note that the USAF took part in that bombing campaign, too. You may also like to note that the people killed were destroyed by explosions, fire, and by being crushed or buried alive when buildings fell on them - much like the casualties of 9/11, except a many thousands more died in Germany.)

So, does the saying "pot calling the kettle black" sound familiar?

I am not saying these things were not justified in war, and I am not saying they were: My point is that such issues deserve a balanced, fair analysis, not unreasoned, ill-balanced, cheap shots.
103

Nellie,

Liverpool 24/11/2008 13:39:08
#85 Fair points all - I agree. But did he, does he still, deserve the worship afforded him by fans (who seem more like "disciples") any more than the rest of us? Indeed, should we name an international airport after you, or me? Indeed, whether you are a Christian or not (and I am not!) Lennon's words of wisdom are but a shadow of those purported to have come from Jesus. (Before any Jesus-denyers jump in, even if they didn't come from Jesus, the wisdom came from someone, and that someone wasn't John Lennon!)
104

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/11/2008 13:58:13
#98 A bigot, says the dictionary, is one who is "intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion". This seems to describe pretty much all religions, and the more devout of religious people of any kind.
105

Nellie,

Liverpool 24/11/2008 14:21:22
#89 Observer. 1

I do hate the over use of superlatives as this devalues them. Let me put it this way:

Mozart was a great musician and Hemmingway was a great writer, and there have been many lyricists that were much more clever at their crafty than Lennon. When it came to prose, Lennon couldn't hold a candle to Carla Lane (of Liverpool). Ditto Beryl Bainbridge, an excellent writer nominated several times for the Booker literary prize, ditto Lynda La Plante, ditty Wil#y Russell. James Audubon of Liverpool was a great artist, perhaps the greatest painter of birds there has ever been, against whom Lennon stood not even as a faint shadow. Brian Patten, Roger McGough and Ian Hendri were much better at crafting poetry than Lennon. Daniel Craig (James Bond) from Liverpool is both a World famous and better actor ... I could go on.

Lennon was just a *very good* (I prefer just *good*) musician and writer - he was not *great*. And as an actor .... he was p### poor. As a painter he was no better than the average art school student.

Outside of the arts there are many others much greater, and certainly more deservingly, than Lennon to have an airport named after them! William Gladstone, Lord Peter Goldsmith, Sir Simon Rattle, Joseph Williamson... Indeed, I bet at least half of Liverpool would feel their airport should have been named after Bill Shankly before John Lennon!
106

Nellie,

Liverpool 24/11/2008 14:26:03
#109 Interesting, that definition of a bigot. Wouldn't it apply equally to the more vociferous atheist?
107

Few Against Many,

24/11/2008 14:33:35
110, that’s all wonderful but what makes an artist a ‘great’ artist in my opinion is the impact that his work has on people and society. After all I am sure that more people have mused over JL lyrics than anything Lynda La Plant has ever done or any of the other irrelevant also rants on your list of great Liverpudlians.
108

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/11/2008 14:54:56
#109 Most atheists, I tend to find, are by their very nature more open-minded and free thinking than most religious people. After all, they have no written guide to tell them who is right (themselves, and those like them) and who is wrong (everybody else).
109

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/11/2008 14:55:41
Oops - #113 is meant for #111.
110

Lianachan,

Highlands 24/11/2008 15:00:18
#110, #112, etc..

All art is subjective, isn't it? One persons masterpiece is another's pointless cacophony. I've always thought that was sort of the whole point.
111

Boab,

Glasgow 24/11/2008 15:17:46
Jesus is all-forgiving, which is why he took Lennon when he did, thus sparing the human race the inevitable Beatles reunion album and tour in the mid-1980s, with Yoko and Linda on backing vocals.

#112 Few Against Many: I disagree with this. I think Suicidal Tendencies are better than the Beatles and don't really care if they have an impact on the general riff-raff.

Incidentally, they sang: "I shot Lennon, I shot the Pope / I shot the devil, now you ain't got no hope ..."
112

Few Against Many,

24/11/2008 15:32:16
Boab, one mans trash is another mans treasure mate. I have never heard of suacidal tendencies but they sound like they could be upbeat, happy pop?
113

Boab,

Glasgow 24/11/2008 16:06:54
#118 Few ... Download the song 'Institutionalized', I guarantee it'll put a smile on your face.

Agree with your point about JL's influential lyrics. Funny how he influenced everything, even Suicidal Tendencies!
114

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 24/11/2008 16:24:25
110 That's your personal opinion.

I meant writer in that he was a bloke wot wrote songs, quite good ones.



115

57vintage,

Keith 24/11/2008 16:26:17
#110

I'll bet none of those mentioned can play that tricky triple rhythm guitar part on All My Loving like Lennon could. I know semi-pro musicians of some standing who have almost put spinal vertebrae out in the attempt.

And could Daniel Craig have carried off that magnificent "you don't look like him at all" dialogue with Eleanor Bron in A Hard Day's Night any better than Lennon? I doubt it.

Lane and Bainbridge would probably have struggled with the evocative early Beatles' cross harp on I Should Have Known Better too.

Horses for courses.
116

MICHAEL J. SCHMITZ,

318 CENTRAL AVE. SOUTH BEND , WA. 24/11/2008 19:12:34
THE POPE SHOULD'NT SAY ANYTHING AFTER CHANGING HIS NAME 3 OR 4 TIMES TO HIDE FROM INVESTIGATORS FOR SHOOTING DOWN B-17'S DURING WORLD WAR 2. ACCORDING TO NEWS INVESTIGATION ONE MONTH AFTER HE WAS CHOSEN. ANYWAY JESUS WAS ONLY A STORY. IT ORIGINATED IN ENGLAND, BY THE HAND OF A ENGLISHMUN. HE WROTE A BOOK PUT 2 SOLID PIECES ON EACH SIDE. THE STORY WAS TO STOP THE BLOODSHED IN ENGLAND. EACH WHO READ IT, WROTE THEIR OWN VERSION IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY, BUT MADE EACH A SAINT=FALSELY.
117

Aiken Head,

Dumbarton 24/11/2008 19:19:01
96 Few Against Many

There is so much convincing evidence that JC is a fictional character that it is hardly worth seeking evidence that he is not. However, many have embarked upon this futile exercise and come up with the square root of you know what.

If you are aware of anything that suggests he may have been real please share it with us. The Josephus forgery, the best effort the Christians have ever come up with, is now recognised as, by its very nature, evidence against the historicity of Jesus.
118

Kitti Kat,

Newtown Square 24/11/2008 21:39:37
Only GOD has the right to "forgive" anyone for anything. NOT the pope. He is NOT God!!
119

radge dug,

24/11/2008 21:56:54
#125- aye right. There IS no god. And i can forgive anyone i need to. Simple and realistic. NO need for mumbo-jumbo.
120

radge dug,

24/11/2008 21:57:21
Aye, sign the BBC Alba petition!
121

Nellie,

Liverpool 24/11/2008 22:03:37
#112 Few Against Many. "what makes an artist a ‘great’ artist in my opinion is the impact that his work has on people and society." But over what period? Vincent Van Gogh is considered to be a great artist, but his work had zilch impact during his lifetime. So, using your definition, was he not great but became great AFTER he died? It matters not - in 100 years time, most certainly the names of Audubon, Rattle and Gladstone will be etched into the history books of art, music and politics. But John Lennon ... John who? He'll have been forgotten save for the curious name on the airport frontage. And in 1,000 years, the bets are on no one will have heard of him, but Jesus ... well, he's been remembered for 2,000 years, so what's another 1,000?
122

Nellie,

Liverpool 24/11/2008 22:07:18
#115 Yes, quite right. Thank you for reminding me! As if I needed it, when there is Mr Satchi collecting Tracy Emin's .... and that (awful IMHO) Angel of the North ...
123

C. Haynes,

Boise 24/11/2008 22:36:26
Today driving home "imagine" came on the radio. I turned it up...............I'm not the only one........
124

Conan the Librarian™,

24/11/2008 23:04:04
130
It's easy if you try...
125

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 24/11/2008 23:11:18
I opine that many poster are enshrined in their heady and STONED days of the 1960s.

Perhaps if one goes back to the original headline it is a matter of possible misquotation by a NEW editor or an editor without experience dealing with the "Curia"

For those unfamiliar with the last word, go to the Vatican website and ALL will be revealed.
126

Francis F,

Isle of Man 25/11/2008 06:14:04
This headline that the "Pope forgives Lennon. . . " is completely misleading. It seeks to give the impression that the Catholic Church has held a grudge for 40 years again a man who is now dead and who has already faced his judgment before almighty God. The actual article praises the Beatles and sees Lennon's comments as somewhat boastful that is all. These are not the words of the Pope but of an editor of a newspaper of the Vatican. He does not mention the word forgiveness; for as Catholics all know, this is freely available in life through confession and in death, through God's mercy.

The extreme reaction of burning records 40 years ago came mainly from USA Protestant Bible belt; the Vatican has hardly ever said anything about Lennon's comments, in its usual moderate way.
127

Here's to the haters,

25/11/2008 06:18:42
#109 You said: "#98 A bigot, says the dictionary, is one who is "intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion". This seems to describe pretty much all religions, and the more devout of religious people of any kind."

While many individual Catholics and other Christians may be, yes, "intolerant," here's just one example of what the Church teaches about other creeds and beliefs, an example of its lack of bigotry:

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day"
from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, pgrph 841.

So to answer your question, no, the word 'bigotry' doesn't "describe pretty much all religions, and the more devout of religious people of any kind."
128

Here's to the haters,

25/11/2008 06:22:07
#117 that's some hard-hitting, incisive research right there.

You're kidding, right? That's meant to be serious research? Do you really believe whatever you read on on-line news sites?

129

Here's to the haters,

25/11/2008 06:29:39
#113 "Most atheists, I tend to find, are by their very nature more open-minded and free thinking than most religious people."

Yep, and many are like this poster (or, seeingas all I know about this poster is this comment, like what this poster seems to believe):

#101 "Mostly against, I have to admit, for I'm very much an atheist since being hounded to Sunday School and Bible Class by my late mother until I told her 'no more'."

who come to atheism as an emotional/psychological reaction *against* Christianity, not as a reasoned choice *for* something.

130

Here's to the haters,

25/11/2008 06:33:15
#69 "You should read "The God Delusion" (Richard Dawkins). It contains many horrific accounts of child abuse at the hands of the Catholic church."

I have read it - see #40.

Have you read "The Dawkins Delusion" by Alastair McGrath? He points out some of Dawkins' many instances of lazy, sloppy, malicious argument.

I read it and thought, "Seriously? A couple of hundred years of free-thinking atheism and this is the best you can come up with? Intelligent atheists deserve better than Dawkins' pi$$-poor "arguments".

 

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This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.