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Published Date: 22 January 2008
GLOBAL stock markets continued plummeting for a second day today, amid fears that a possible US recession will cause a worldwide economic slowdown.
The stock market went into meltdown yesterday as £84 billion was wiped off City of London shares – the biggest fall since the financial crisis precipitated by the 9/11 terrorist attack on New York.

At the end of a day of frantic trading, the UK FT
SE 100 index dropped 5.5 per cent to 5,578.2, amid fears of a recession.

That pattern was repeated around the world as other markets went into freefall. The CAC-40 in France plunged even further, dropping 6.8 per cent to 4,744.15, while Germany's blue-chip DAX 30 slumped 7.2 per cent to 6,790.19.

This morning, Japan's Nikkei 225 index, the benchmark for Asia's biggest bourse, skidded 4.4% in morning trading to 12,738.31 points, after dropping 3.9% yesterday. Hong Kong's Hang Seng index was down 7.2% after plunging 5.5% the day before.

The dramatic declines in Asia and Europe were expected to spread to Wall Street, where stock index futures were already down sharply hours before the trading day began.

Finance ministers and stock-market traders will today watch anxiously for Wall Street's reaction to yesterday's global shares crash.

The stock-market plunge came on the day that Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, unveiled the UK government's proposals to rescue the Northern Rock bank.

Mr Darling's plan to underwrite the mortgage lender with Treasury bonds was forced on the government by the continued crisis from the subprime mortgages fallout.

Today, attention will turn to Wall Street – closed yesterday for the Martin Luther King holiday – with investors looking nervously to see whether the dramatic falls continue in the US.

Last night, the indications from the sale of "stock futures" – a reflection of what shares will be worth over the next few weeks and months – suggested that Wall Street will follow the worldwide fall. If US stocks open today at the levels the futures prices were indicating last night, it would push the market dangerously close to a "bear market", a 20 per cent drop from its peak in October.

That in turn could have the effect of leading to further selling of shares in other stock markets across the world, increasing the likelihood of a full-blown recession engulfing the world.

In a day of stock market turbulence, Scotland's leading financial institutions were unable to avoid the fallout from the crash, with Royal Bank of Scotland shares falling by more than 8 per cent to 342p.

The drop means that the value of the shares in RBS, a global player in banking, has fallen by more than 50 per cent from their high of just six months ago.

HBOS dropped by just over 4 per cent to 610p, while Standard Life fell by just under 4 per cent to 203p.

Last night, one leading analyst warned that the consequences of the falls yesterday could hit the world economy. David Cohen, director of Asian economic forecasting at Action Economics in Singapore, said: "People are certainly nervous about a potential recession in the US spilling over to the rest of the world."

A measure of that concern came from the reaction in Europe. Pedro Solbes, the Spanish economy minister, said: "We are worried in the sense that we have to follow every hour."

Yesterday, Joaquin Almunia, the EU's economic and monetary affairs commissioner, sought to calm fears of recession, saying that the market upheaval was "logical".

Mr Almunia said he hoped a £70 billion tax-relief plan proposed last week by President George Bush would counter a possible recession in the US. He added: "It seems that markets are considering the possibility of a more pronounced slowdown, even a recession, in the US, so it is a logical reaction.

"But I hope they will also pay attention to real information about the economy – in particular in Europe – and they will become more quiet."

Francis Lun, of Fulbright Securities in Hong Kong, said: "It's another horrible day."

He said the markets had continued to fall because of "disappointment" at the measures proposed by President Bush.

The markets felt that it was, "too little, too late and investors feel it won't help the economy recover", he added.

Paul J Nolte, director of investments at Hinsdale Associates in the US, added to the gloom.

He said: "We're going for some tough slugging here. The breadth and the depth of subprime and housing market and its impact on the economy has everybody concerned. Most of the indications are we are in a recession."

President Bush hopes that his package of temporary tax cuts and other measures will boost spending in America.

The president appealed to Congress for the plans to be implemented quickly to "keep our economy growing and create jobs".

Mr Darling and Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, will be watching developments in the US with trepidation.

A recession in the US could have a serious knock-on effect on the UK economy.



The full article contains 858 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 January 2008 9:51 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Economic indicators
 
1

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 22/01/2008 00:50:30
Excellent news, will bring the market into some sembalnce of sanity, I think the US market was closed today with a holiday.

Means tomorrow the US market will follow. after all it was their sub prime markets that started this mess..

I do feel sorry for anyone due to retire next week, pension funds doon the river
2

Kipling,

22/01/2008 00:58:37
So much for my £1 share in the building society. It might now just buy me a Mars bar.
3

Kipling,

22/01/2008 01:00:47
On the other hand, a bar on Mars might be worth several billion in 20 years.
4

Karl Gauss,

USA 22/01/2008 01:29:43
You know, when you look at matters like this, you wonder why our politicians waste time with questions such as "Did Clinton insult Dr, Martin Luther King by giving credit to President Johnson for the 1964 Civil Rights Act?"
This is SERIOUS. The end of the US in wotld affairs could be in sight. The end of the US could be in sight.
Things may not be as bad for you. I expect a few years of hard times in Europe and Asia is inevitable if the US economy fails, but I believe you'll recover from it and replace the large demand for products and services that came out of the US. The falling European and Asian markets may simply be in anticipation of the hit you will likely take if the US economy sinks beneath the waves.
Mine may well be the last great American generation- -the last to have a good standard of living and national security.
5

Karl Gauss,

USA 22/01/2008 01:34:49
Ah, yes. Forgot this:

CONTRACT LAST NET CHGE
S&P 500 MAR08 1262.00 A -6330
E-MINI MAR08 1262.25 -6300
E-MINI JUN08 1267.25 A -6275
NSDQ100 MAR08 1771.75 B -7775
E-NASDAQ MAR08 1771.25 -7825
E-ND CMP MAR08 2367.00 P ----
BIOTECH MAR08 838.30 P ----
NIKKEI MAR08 12650.0 -910
NK YEN MAR08 12630.0 -900
RUSSELL MAR08 645.45 A -2905
E-RUSSEL MAR08 645.50 -2900
E-MIDCAP MAR08 725.90 B -3070
http://www.cme.com/trading/dta/del/globex.html

They tend to be a reasonably good predictor of how the US markets will open if positive or negative enough and can predict the close if positive or negative enough. I've never seen them so negative.
6

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 22/01/2008 02:00:16
My boss is expecting US gov intervension over night, or if nothing done a loss of 10 % MINIMUM on US stocks, I think he may be right
7

W Smith,

Middle East 22/01/2008 03:27:53
The USA's national debt is around 1.6% of its GDP.

UK's national debt is around 3% of our GDP.

So much for 'prudent' Gordon Brown.

He inherited a national surplus from the Tories in 1997 and turned into a national debt - now the chickens are coming home to roost.

Not fair to blame our Gordon for economic turmoil around the world but he is responsible for preparing, or not preparing, the nation for periods like this.

He's spent over £4 trillion over 10 years as Chancellor, including £300 billion on quangos in the last two years, and managed to do this under the radar.

Those nations smart enough to have sovereign investment funds, like oil scarce Singapore, can now move in to the UK and US and buy up large slices of blue chip companies at bargain basement prices.


Well done Gordon - the History graduate!
8

Julian.,

edinburgh 22/01/2008 04:06:02
W Smith # 7

Nice try but the national debt under Gordon Brown from 1997 to now has fallen from 43% to 37% of GDP whreas the national debt under George Bush has risen from 60% to 65% of GDP.

There's not much point in taking a snapshot of 1 year and you'll have a hard job discrediting one of our most successful chancellors ever (and that's coming from an anti-labour person).
9

Tatties ower the side,

Johannesburg 22/01/2008 05:02:56
#8 Julian Those numbers are scary!!!!
10

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 22/01/2008 05:07:44
I was searching for the figures Julian thanks for putting them out there
11

Julian.,

edinburgh 22/01/2008 05:19:04
Thanks guys, and here are the sources if you're interested.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=206

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

Interestingly, for all you Republicans out there, the US national debt compared to GDP went down from 1945 to 1980 then sharply up under Bush/Reagan, down again under Clinton and up again under George W.
12

Oor_Wullie,

ma_Nostradamus_bucket 22/01/2008 07:27:05
..aye, thayll be blood pourin doon the quadruple monitors of the city traders soon - ahv just flung myself oot the windae in sympathy, just as well ah live on the ground floor like. The squirrel that seved as a soft-landing will recover shortly, unlike the markets - wir aw doomed, DOOMED, ah tellyer..

Panic, Sell, Sell and Panic again while yi still can, invest it aw in Lightbulbs, its the future growth market fir oor dark post-capatalist times..
13

Unimpressed one,

22/01/2008 08:12:57
#4, Serious yes, but not fatal. Remember the dire predictions of the state of the world after the Asian crisis a few years ago. Seems to have corrected itself in the right direction as Asian growth now unstoppable.
14

ddmc,

22/01/2008 08:48:55
Ross Fyffe, the PPT have been active recently, this is why there has been some capital injections from foriegn banks into citibank & the likes, the Fed's print presses are running at full capacity.
15

Boy Wonder,

22/01/2008 09:19:19
#15. Rules ... may I also suggest you do not keep your gold in a bank. Look at Northern Rock for an example of banks!
16

W Smith,

Middle East 22/01/2008 09:26:21
#7 Julian

"And it should be noted that, unlike the British government, the US is at least in healthy fiscal condition and can afford a little bit of fiscal easing.

The federal deficit is only a little more than 1% of GDP in the USA, well below the 3% figure in the UK".

Gerard Baker, The Times, January 2008.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/columnists/article3228105.ece

I stand corrected.

Not 3% "of" GDP, as stated in my comment #7, but 3% more than GDP.

Unfortunately, my mistake doesn't let Mr Brown's admirers off the hook.

Britain has just gone through the most prosperous period in its history with an economic boom that started under the Tories and our Gordon has failed to save a friggin penny.


17

Isonomia,

Lenzie 22/01/2008 09:27:48
It's not this recession I'm worried about but the next. The relentless optimism of traders will bring this recession to a halt and then they'll all expect the good times to return. But with energy availability on the downturn, I can't see how we can sustain the current level of economic output, and so we are bound to see another recession a few years after this, and then the markets will be gloomy!
18

Liz,

Edinburgh 22/01/2008 09:35:46
#8
Sorry I almost feel of my chair laughing....

"one of our most successful chancellors ever "

How long will this description of one of the most money grabbing, profligate chancellors we have ever had last?

Even if you ignore the mess with our National debt, the personal debt level in the Country is a disgrace. Much of it comes from a chancellor who seems to have built his sucess by inflating our housing market beyond all sensible measures (where were the regulations in borrowing which might have avoided the Norther Rock debacle) and which is looking more crumbly by the day.

And an independent Bank of England?! - with inflation going through the roof (but being masked by a corrupted measure of its calculation) in independent BoE would be raising interest rates to curb inflation and before the £ is seriously compromised and we end up in a bigger pile of poo than we are already in. But if interest rates are raised Gordon's "miracle economy" will evaporate as quickly as the house prices drop.
19

Sydney,

Edinburgh 22/01/2008 09:36:11
It'll be interesting to see the impact on Gen Y ubber confidence having never seen, lived or had to work through a recession.
I don't thik they know the meaning of unemployment or redundancies..
20

Isonomia,

Lenzie 22/01/2008 09:49:55
>>"Even if you ignore the mess with our National debt, the personal debt level in the Country is a disgrace. Much of it comes from a chancellor who seems to have built his sucess by inflating our housing market beyond all sensible measures"

Liz, spot on. House prices have been artificially inflated by manipulation of the market. Firstly by massively increasing the demand through uncontrolled immigration, and secondly by massively restricting new build by draconian planning laws.

Then Gordon oversaw the freeing up of personal debt seeing this as a way of getting the merit for a massive economic boom, without anyone being able to say it only was the normal fake economics of prosperity built on government borrowing.

Instead of fake economy built on £1trillion of government borrowing the only miracle Gordon managed was to get the gullible public to do nulabour's borrowing for them!
21

Why can't I use my usual name?,

Glasgow 22/01/2008 09:56:20
Who's been better, #21? Brown is far from perfect but 10 years continuous growth is better than just about any other OECD nation.
22

Liz,

Edinburgh 22/01/2008 10:01:02
#24
It all depends on the growth really doesnt it? Read the comment by #23 growth based on debt is not 'really' growth at all as it has to be paid back some day and that day is rapidly approaching.
23

Gothic Rose,

22/01/2008 10:20:47
Think I might, give this weeks lottery a try.:)
24

Mike S,

22/01/2008 10:31:02
Governments go on about the personal debt of individuals and the resultant debt crisis. What about the debt of the USA and UK to pay for a war few people want. If the USA wants oil it justs prints dollars, as well as invading the source of some of the oil and threatening others like Iran Russia Venezuela etc.
25

Isonomia,

Lenzie 22/01/2008 10:36:34
#25, what I forgot to say, is that whereas virtually unrestricted immigration pushes up house prices during economic boom (and provides plenty of nulabour voters).

Who do you think will be first to up sticks and head home with their well-earned cash when a recession strikes? I have some good friends from Hungary, if our economy does well they will stay and share the prosperity, but if the economy goes into recession, they'll go home where their money can buy much more and let us deal with the recession!

Only up side, is there might be some jobs for plumbers and fruit pickers for unemployed bankers!

26

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/01/2008 11:08:00
#19 You really don't know what you're on about do you? I hope you're not making any life-changing decisions on the basis of these views.
27

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 22/01/2008 11:24:25
#21

Liz, I have to disagree with you
Gordon Brown, although he has made some errors with his borrowing amongst other things, he has guided Britain to around 40 quarters of consecutive economic growth. I'm no Labour man but the UK stands as the only country in the world to have enjoyed this level of growth, even through the uncertainties of the dot-com crash, 9/11 etc
28

seanie,

22/01/2008 11:30:19
#19
"Not 3% "of" GDP, as stated in my comment #7, but 3% more than GDP."

What are you drivelling on about?
29

nolimits,

Where the hell am I? 22/01/2008 12:35:19
Theres an old N.American Indian saying, "If you step in enough sh*t, you've eventually got to smell it and wipe it off". Bailing out banks with public funds won't work. Increasing immigration to artificially keep housing and living prices high won't work. Its time to get back to a stable economy based on 'Real Value'. The Industrial Revolution for the western world has come to full term, and is on the downward slope to oblivion. All the social experimenting in the world is not going to fix this mess.
30

Arfur,

22/01/2008 12:40:03
#21 Liz - every time i see your name i just know that i am about read utter trip.

I am not a Labour man but Gordon Brown oversaw 10 years of consecutive economic growth. With global markets crashing faster than a whippet with a bum full of dynamite, do you know where Britain would be without that at this time? We would be on the brink of a recession along side the US.

The mess of Personal Debt? We are in the same mess that we were in 20/30/40 years ago. And before you come back with a figure increase of X million in the last 10 years, here is a wee tip for you...

take personal debt levels year on year yeh
take mortage values year on year ok
take average personal incomes year on year yeh
graph the lot and guess what you get????

may godness a miracle.....3 lines with a relatively similar gradient.
31

Jay Kay,

burntisland 22/01/2008 12:51:55
I hear they are to put the severn crossing on suicide watch in case any investment bankers fancy a plummet from its walkways>
32

Silence of the Yams,

22/01/2008 13:38:06
I wonder how much Romanaov's UKios Bankas shares have been hit? His banks share price was already on the slide before this (down 50% in past six months) Hence the administration rumours.
33

Sedov,

Scotland 22/01/2008 13:45:51
Not the end, unfortunately, of the free market system which is not free at all but cost us plenty ( nothern rock for example) The US will bail us out as usual but if the trend continues, as I hope it does, then revolution bekons and a better world for all, not just a few. By the way all you nationalists out there - how will your utopia of an independent Scotland tackle the global economy? Or are your examples of Ireland, Demnark, Ukraine etc immune from a world slump?
34

The Strategist,

22/01/2008 13:47:16
The US must be frightened stiff of a recession. The Fed has just reduced their interest rate to 3.5%.. That's 3/4 of a point!!

Hope the BoE doesn't follow suite otherwise house prices and household debt will take off again and those worthless Private Equity companies will be back in business.
35

sisyphus,

Edinburgh 22/01/2008 13:47:51
Alternatively you could put all your spare cash on Town & Gown in the 3.30 at Southwell today !
36

Liz,

Edinburgh 22/01/2008 13:54:51
#35
"do you know where Britain would be without that at this time? We would be on the brink of a recession along side the US."

I think you need to re-phrase that.... "We ARE on the brink of a recession along side the US"

A recession is simply negative economic growth so past performance does not make an economy immune to one in the future, we will still follow the US into one this time. Financially this country is worse off than the US and you can draw as many graphs as you want.

Don't not belive me? Go and read up on some economics. In fact I seriouly suggest you take a closer look at the debt figures for the country - especially creditcard, personal loans and mortgages. Inflation is heading upwards and despite us having interest rates are are below the long term average people are struggling to pay back mortgages http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/money/property_and_mortgages/article3225140.ece
It is the property market that started all this mess in the US and we are in a very similar situation.
37

Mike S,

22/01/2008 14:08:13
Pity about the modern air conditioned buildings as the speculators can't climb out onto the window ledges and do the decent thing.
38

Isonomia,

Lenzie 22/01/2008 14:27:30
#46 I can't believe you said that - think of the health and safety impact if it started raining speculators!

Think about what you are saying!
39

Isonomia,

Lenzie 22/01/2008 14:34:50
US markets have now opened. Looks like the weather forecast is rain!
40

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/01/2008 14:36:14
Hmm, the FTSE hasn't even gone below 5,500 yet. This isn't much of a historical slump. Looks just like a necessary adjustment.
41

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA..captured from Mexico 1845 22/01/2008 14:38:46
42
The Strategist,
22/01/2008
---------------------------------

When we the USA get the economic sniffles the rest of u bunch world wide, get the flue. And in the case of a province like Scotland pneumonia .

Our capitalist system is a gambling system, based on supply and demand and GREED.

The supply portion is finite and will end unless we dramatically slow population growth and ban the American life style with its throw away mentality.

The demand portion coupled with GREED is not finite unless people leave the planet or die off.

The receipt for capitalism is flawed, and eventually collapse .

In less than 1000+ years after our species the human are no longer on the earth , (are gone). Nature will return with a vengeance, obliterating all traces on our cultures.

Everything we do and build to day, will corrode to dust particles and fall to the earth.

So DON'T Panic Dudes . If the next ice age don't get us, a plague or nuke war, or asteroid will do the trick.

Question. Why is your Fort Road Bridge falling down ...CORROSION.

IF maintenance were stopped on the Golden Gate Bridge it too would fall down.

Every thing we build now will corrode in time without the constant job of maintenance.

Have a happy Haggis Day.

GC

42

Arfur,

22/01/2008 14:43:40
#37 Bob10 - you could look at it that way but you would obviously take equity of the value of the house.
What I was trying to show is that debt is increasing at the same levels as personal incomes and assets.
43

Isonomia,

Lenzie 22/01/2008 14:44:34
The Roman empire collapsed when the elite started spending all the money on entertainment for the masses, and nothing on finding new sources of production as the once fertile land became barren.

#50, this is not the end of an empire, we don't have an elite wasting money on useless games, or fighting wars for their own ego, and we aren't running out of fossil fuels because daily we are told "if we do nothing" we will all burn in the fiery furnace of global warming.

This is not the end of Western civilisation.

44

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 22/01/2008 14:46:35
#41 dont know where you get the idea that nationalist Scots foresee some sort of utopia. We just want a chance to self determine like most other Independant countries. If we fall flat on our face then so be it but at least we will have the pride and passion to pick ourselves up as a nation and reuild our very own and very scottish economy...
45

Duncan in Edinburgh,

22/01/2008 14:57:09
#53 You sum up one of the most disturbing elements of the nationalist support - pride and passion over reality. How will pride and passion give people jobs, healthcare, education? How will the knowledge of this notional independence (as if any country can exist independently of others in the global economy) help to put food on our tables? Can we live on pride?

Bring on the glorious failure, you seem to be saying. Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. The old lie.
46

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 22/01/2008 15:19:16
#54 Pride Passion and Reality can live happily side by side. Scotland is globally recognised and renowned for it's ability to create, produce, innovate and invent. Pride and passion give people the drive to implement these qualities. Your message is one of negativity and fear. I have no fear that an Independant Scotland would succeed far beyond the expectations of the Naysayers like yourself. I feel sorry for you...
47

Arfur,

22/01/2008 15:34:07
#56 Bob10 - i am not talking about taking equity out of my house to re-finance future mortgage payments.

If i buy a flat for £50,000 and in two years time it is valued at £70,000 then yes I still have a debt of £50,000 (or just under it (which is included in the personal debt levels)) but i also have £20,000 worth of assits (at this time). Of course the house price can go down to £60,000 next month meaning i only have an assit of £10,000. I can buy and sell at any time if not locked in for 1 or 2 years (just like shares).

A bank for instance regards all our overdrafts as an asset even though that is money that we potentialy wont pay back.

If you look at the rate of assitable equity we have year on year it grows at round about the same rate as debt levels.

What i am trying to say is yes we have twice as much debt as ten years ago but we also get payed twice as much and our houses/flats are (currently) giving us twice as much equity than ten years ago. Hence we are not worse off than ten years ago and not better off than ten years ago.

More folk these days do have savings accounts, shares, pensions ect however.
48

Arfur,

22/01/2008 15:36:03
for some reason i have typed assit instaed of asset over and over again.
49

Sedov,

Scotland 22/01/2008 15:54:29
#53 Bana Heid You and I both want a better society. You believe that it can be done through bourgeois nationalism which is so called independence within the present system. The present system is controlled by global capital thus real indepedence is utopian in its concept. Self determination can only be successful by a qualitive change in our lives which cannot be acheived, in my opinion, within the present system. What you seem to be saying is that it is better to have misery with an independent label than misery without the independent label. I want self determination that can make a real difference and that means a fundemental change in society. Cheers.
50

zigzag,

Tecumseh Canada 22/01/2008 16:13:40
Maybe now other countries should realize that it is time they stopped hitching tjhier star to the US economy. That is what you get for hoping for a free ride. The EU needs to get smart and realize that the Europen Market and Euro should rplace the Dow and the greenback.

A Bush in charge means market crash...remember the 80s?
They know how to rape the wealth, but cant produce greenback babies. Another way to pay for the war in IRAQ...level the playing field with a worldwide recession. Will China reasses its currency to bring it in line with the rest of the world....dream on. Not now dude.
51

Liz,

Edinburgh 22/01/2008 16:22:06
#60
So who told you that wages and houseprices have both risen at the same rate for the past 10 years?

Everything I have read suggests that average house prices are now anything from 8-10 times the average earnings. This is not healthy by any measure.
52

rancid brown,

Fife 22/01/2008 16:36:32
Hold on to your hairpiece. We're about to enter the mother of all recessions.

Alex Jones and his expert guests have been warning us for a long time.

infowars.com
53

TheSmith,

stock exchange 22/01/2008 16:48:05
Some of these comments are just as bad as the scaremongering press articles...doom, doom, death, doom...bet the posters jittering about personal debt will watch the drama unfold on their plasma tellies.
54

An English Voice™,

22/01/2008 16:53:57
56. I don't think you understand what 'sub-prime' means.

It is nothing to do with refinancing or remortgaging your house.

The US sub-prime market involved giving mortages to high-risk housebuyers. These mortgages were initially at below market or 'sub-prime' (prime = base rate) interest rates but that discount lapsed after a few years, rising above market rates.

The problem is that this scheme has now backfired as vast numbers (x00,000s) are now defaulting. Tie in a collapsing house market in the US and you have banks losing billions on defaulted loans and negative equity assets.

International banks around the world provided the funding for the mortgages through hedge funds etc. and have now been caught up in the crunch.

End result is that banks are pouring money into their US operations to balance their books. US and international banks have also cut right back on lending (especially to other banks - Northern Rock for one) and restricted withdrawals (Scottish Widows, Standrad Life etc.), stifling investment available elsewhere. Even to savers and companies with no link to the sub-prime crisis.

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_lending

The US is almost certainly heading for recession as domestic spending drops right off, which will cause problems for the UK and the rest of Europe as it is a major market for our goods.

'Mother of all recessions' however? No. There will be a downturn and, at worst, we may see a brief recession but it will be nothing compared to what will happen in the US.
55

Arfur,

22/01/2008 17:11:06
#71 An English Voice - exactly right. Their target consumer was low paid, no asset customers. They thought that if they spread the risk over enough banks then the risk would be worth the reward. They however based their default rates on slightly above average fail rates. As you say thousands defaulted and fan was properly hit.

The reason that it is hitting us so hard is because banks (for liquidaty reasons) buy shares/borrow etc from other banks to move cash around (reason that Northern Rock went pear shaped is because all banks then wanted to keep hold of their liquid assets and they require to move more than avg cash through their business as they deal heavily in mortgages).

#65 Bob10 - of course it can go down (i even said that in my comment) but how many people do you know who is in negative equity at this time?

68 Liz - the two economists that i had a meeting with three weeks ago.

as for your second point??? do you own a house that is 10 times your salary? i was talking equity levels not who can afford a house or not.
56

Isonomia,

Lenzie 22/01/2008 17:11:58
What I can't understand is why an interest rate cut and tax rate refunds isn't seen as yet another problem for the US. Afterall, if the US government are giving back money, where are they going to get their money for spending on the US economy from? From Borrowing - I doubt it because they've just dropped the rate they pay for money they borrow.

So, it looks like the US are going to go for a massive tightening of spending, and I thought the economic wisdom was that government's could spend their way out of a recession, so, perhaps they can save their way into one?
57

westview,

On the slippy slope to a better future. 22/01/2008 17:14:41
Thank godot that we in this rich wee country have the life boat of indepedence on which to reach a better future. All we have to do is stear away from the sinking Titanic of the UK before it drags us down. Having freedom to manuever in turbulent times is one of the main advantages of going for independence from the Empire of England. this country is not over populated and can feed its steady 5 million of a population. England is too overcrowded and has 55 million mouths to feed.
58

An English Voice™,

22/01/2008 17:29:35
74. You're absolutely right. Scotland has no financial industry so will be unaffected by all this.

Oh, except:
The financial industry accounts for £7 billion (7%) of Scotland's GDP.
Seven of the top 20 companies in Scotland are in financial services.
Over 108,000 people directly employed in the industry and over 100,000 more employed in support services.

In the UK as a whole, even though London is the world's financial capital, finance is still only 2% of the UK's entire GDP.

I suspect Scotland is about to see a very large chunk of the 'union dividend'.
59

An English Voice™,

22/01/2008 17:50:12
77. They were high-risk borrowers who initially borrowed on the back of rapidly dropping interest rates (6% in 2001 dropping to 1.5% in 2003).

However, they couldn't keep up repayments once their mortgage interest rates went above base/prime...and then kept on rising as US interest rates also started to rise from 2004 onwards (rising back above 5% within 2 years - rollercoaster stuff!)

Then add in the falling property prices creating negative equity for people already struggling with repayments and you have what is being called a 'meltdown'.

I have no idea what effect it will have on the UK housing market although the expected interest rate cuts will cushion the blow.
60

Sambo,

The deep south 22/01/2008 18:00:53
Of course when the US sneezes the rest of the world catches cold. We are 30% of global GDP. Right now is a great time to get into the market. Remember, buy low sell high.
61

lynitic,

U S A 22/01/2008 18:03:13
There is a lot of talk about the state of the economy in the U S, but it's what people are doing that matters. the buying of gold and precious metals is on the rise. Personally you can't eat metal. The investment in land is priced so outrageously that the common folk can't afford it and are letting the banks reposses their homes. My family invested in a bit of land years ago and have built it up to sustain life in time of need. I've been called various names and have learned to ignore idiots.
There is a great deal of goat breeding going on in Ohio for meat goats (boar-breed). The nubian is the chioce for milk. Right now the rush to sell people freese dried food that will last for 20 years is the biggest hidden advertizement. The End Is Near. I like goats milk and meat.I raise my own goats, chickens, rabbits, and I have a horse or two. The problem with this is people are trying to charge $6.00 for one bail of hay. Now I have to clear more of my land to grow hay for the animals. I have been talking to more and more fatalists lately and they feel there is no end in sight. The anialation of the usless masses will soon begin and only those who are prepared will survive.
So much on survival. I would think that the American people would bring their money home and reignite the manufacturing industry. I couldn't believe it when FORD moved their tractor production unit to VIETNAM. Now, I won't buy Ford products. Our money is becomming worthless and everything is going to plastic, this is why everybody is buying gold and jewels. It looks like the old barter system is looking better every day.
Remember to look up RON PAUL for the next president of America, Obama is scared of him.
62

Sambo,

The deep south 22/01/2008 18:20:15
I don't believe house prices will fall in Scotland. They may remain steady for a year or so. My rational is that there is almost no new construction and where are the people of Eastern Europe going to find a place to live?
63

Scotch man,

Other 22/01/2008 18:42:25
The Merkmal of the recession seems still to have people who do not yet notice that it is in the
United States.

The United States is exactly Theme Park of people who succeed.

In the meaning, it is Disneyland.

However, I do not buy Disney.

I am interested in whether the United States is being interested in the problem in the United States.
64

An Beal Bacht,

22/01/2008 19:26:41
34 - Nolinits says:

"Increasing immigration to artificially keep housing and living prices high won't work."

But that is probably what they will do! Import demand to offset the slump.

Folks her are talking about equity as the difference between
value of their property and what is left owing on their mortgage. How about negative equity? That's when no one can afford to buy your property so the value falls below what you're paying for it.
65

Karl Gauss,

USA 22/01/2008 20:34:20
Ross Fyfe- -GOOD CALL! Your boss got it right- -3/4 point cut. Also on 10% drop, I think. I had orders in (which didn't get filled) which assumed a 1000 point drop in the Dow.

W Smith- -Re UK national debt: Should a lot of this be due to Blair? He was PM a lot longer than Brown.

2006-01-01 13194.7 million US$
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/GDPA?cid=106

Current Debt Held by the Public Intragovernmental Holdings Total Public Debt Outstanding
01/17/2008 5,095,854,801,083.35 4,091,729,665,006.36 9,187,584,466,089.71
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

US federal debt in 2006 appears to be about 9.1/13.1 = 69.5% of GDP. SCARY! That's $30,000 US$ for every man, woman, and child here. And getting worse.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/MICH?cid=98
US consumer inflation expectations appear totally unrealistic to me. I expect much higher because of the plunging $, resulting higher import prices. And what doesn't rely on imports here?

UK GDP appears to be 2.1 or 2.4 trillion US$.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/uk.html#Econ
(I'mhaving trouble getting numbers here. Any help will be appreciated.)
That same source claims your public debt is 43% of your GDP- -well below some of the previous claims.

HEY! I bought a slug of pounds as protection against that plunging US$! Get to it! Bail me out! :-)

I've been over to England and Scotland numerous times in the last few years. Love both areas. Love Edinburgh. Great castle and great people. Is a little chilly and humid, though. OTOH, if you like the wather, you'll love the food. :-)


66

Sambo,

The Deep South 22/01/2008 20:39:06
Today the Fed cut the interest rate 3/4 percent. I notice that the Bank of England has kept it's rate at the same. The reason is, the UK is facing strong inflation, check the consumer spending in December, people can't afford to buy.
Any cut by the Bank of England in the near future will drive the UK into a deep recession.
67

Sambo,

The deep south 22/01/2008 20:50:37
#86
Hey Karl,
Hold on to your British pounds but if the Bank of England should cut their rate get rid of them. I suggest you buy the Canadian Loon.
68

Karl Gauss,

USA 22/01/2008 20:59:43
BOB10- -you got a lot of it. The rest was a little help from our gov't. :-) This is like having a drunken sailor help you sober up. :-)
The other part was the our Federal Reserve Bank (our cental bank, roughly our Bank of England) lowered Federal Funds (the rate it will lend to commercial banks)to 1% to hold off the recession that would have (and should have) resulted from the dot-com-internet-telecom crash stretching roughly from 1998 to 2001 (depending on what index and which stocks you look at). In doing so, they created a situation where the banks were essentially paying Americans to borrow. The lenders pointed out that US real estate had a LONG uptrend and that was bound to continue, right? That would make the loan almost free for them. That money went right into the American real estate market, pushing prices up. They also competed with each other to get borrowers. The loans they gave were repackaged as CDSs. CMOs, and CDSs.
http://accruedint.blogspot.com/
These, by ignoring the fact that they were using the wrong probability distribution, were given AAA credit ratings (usually) and sold far and wide - including to British and European banks and brokers. You see the results. Far more of the borrowers defaulted (which the correct probability distribution said would happen) than was expected and those AAA financial derivatives were junk. You got dragged into this mess.
69

Karl Gauss,

22/01/2008 21:08:56
Sambo- -I've seen reports the loon is overvalued. I'll be in Canada in a couple months and may be able to judge better. The other problem Canada has is they are our largest trading partner and we theirs. If we get sick, they get sick.

Sorry about that, Canada, You've been a great neighbor. You deserve better.
70

Sambo,

The Deep South 22/01/2008 21:28:51
Karl, Canada is a good bet though, their oil reserves alone will make their currency strong. Although I don't believe in their labour style government.
71

Sambo,

The Deep South 22/01/2008 21:30:44
The drop in the US stock market is false, watch for large company earnings to come out.
72

Karl Gauss,

USA 22/01/2008 23:38:22
Sambo- -The Canadian oil reserves are largely in the form or oil sands. We have oil sands too. It takes a lot of processing and energy to get the oil out. Extracting that oil can only be done economically if the price of oil is high; this is why you've only recently seen much mention of those sands. They were discovered long ago. probably originally by Sir Alexander Mackenzie in 1788. They were largely ignored for a century, then attempts were made to extract oil which failed economically. Until the 1940s, they were used as a source of bitumen (basically asphalt). Oil extraction was tried again, failed again, and the Alberta provincial gov't took over the operation. It gave up a few years later. Several private enterprises successively took over the attempt and finally turned a profit as the price of oil rose in the 1980s. The 10990s. with low oil prices, were losers, then the operation became profitable in the late 1990s and 2000s again.
http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/charts/Oil/Inflation_Adj_Oil_Prices_Chart.htm
Canada is the largest petroleum exporter to the US currently (ahead of Saudi Arabia). (And I'd much rather see Americans make Canadians rich than Saudis!)

But what happens to those exports if the US economy tanks (which the US gov't, in its mormal bumbling way, is trying to prevent)?

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html
73

Karl Gauss,

USA 22/01/2008 23:43:41
#73, Isonomia- -Yeah, I don't get it either. It seems to me that the "cure" is going to make the disease worse.
74

Scotch man,

Other 23/01/2008 04:32:55
I fear the stick. Moreover, the self-insistence cannot be occasionally done
according to the environmental status.

However, I think retreats of the business of this world in a foreign policy and a
domestic policy of the United States.

Kennedy is Catholicism (conservatism and Democratic Party).
Therefore, the black, the Japanese, and the Asian were despised, and it
spoke very highly of Catholicism.
In general, the United States dislikes Marxism.
It was thought by the United States that socialism was not achieved.

A present US economy social structure was made from T and Roosevelt's (Republican Party) current policies. (The club diplomatic {..saying.. threaten in case of not being ..Ki.. (military power)} and ..foreign policy.. laissez-faire domestically. )Military power though it is a pro-Japanese sect.
This respect and the business suppress the big success. It was effective in the policy after F, Roosevelt (Fought against Japan), and Taft back. This policy was not limited in eight personal years (T and Roosevelt). (Continue .)
75

Scotch man,

Other 23/01/2008 04:43:12
Meaning of distinguished services Progresshibizm of from Harvard
University and T and the 26th generation Roosevelt (1901-1909)
(reformation principle and reform principle);

(1)Foundation of Department of Commerce

The Ministry of Public Management, Home Affairs, Posts and Telecommunications had a superintendency by using the antitrust law after T and Roosevelt assumed the position of the president in 1901. Industrial Policy Bureau was set up, and it began to tally statistics.

(2)Destruction of trust (trust holdings) (It is called the trust banishment).

The oil company was brought together in one though there was 44 standard
oil.
Additionally, it is easy to do the money profit to sugar and the cigarette
(Progressivism the United States).

(3)Railway reform.1870-80(It is said it is the worst in the reform).

The fare was improved, and it became an age when president authority intervened
it.

(4)Food and medicine

Critic U.Sinclair publishes the novel "Jungle" in 1906. The inspection law that manages Beef is enacted.
It ate good meat together with the exercise of the citizens, it was assumed that it was necessary to become healthy, and the strong opposition of the enterprise succeeded in stop, too.

(5)Labor movement (strike)

It is American though there is no class where the hierarchy exists. Everyone has racially assumed the position from the community structure such as WASP of New England of the manager.

(6)Resource protection policy

Cut neither country construction, country protection or 1897 nor the indiscriminate
deforestation prohibition forest without permission. (forest method)

The above-mentioned 4 and 6 are still called a big problem in general.

(Continue. )
76

Scotch man,

Other 23/01/2008 04:47:18
Because Samunar (sociologist, economics person, and liberal) was great, the subject was put on I Yale in the name of social science. Samunar explained liberalism indefinitely.
It is said that protestantism's teaching, the liberalism of Samunar, and the remark theory were correct. Samunar set up the psychology sociology in the Chicago university and Columbia University in 1890's.
The research of Samunar is the people style theory that is not the nation (Folk-ways).
Because it was said, "The United States develops with the development of sociology in the United States".

It basic makes it , for instance, the survival of the fittest however of can the business as liked. That is, the person who adjusts to the industry will survive (Even the corruption :).
To develop industry, Yale Uni gave suitable land for industrial development however based on Sorshaldarbinizm attacking the person now.
To begin with, it is a spencer that influenced Samunar.
Because it explained liberalism that suits colonialism.
(Continue. )
77

Scotch man,

Other 23/01/2008 04:52:15
The U.S. west war in 1898. Result of victory isolationism getting rid of. It makes it to anti-American cutting of the west person and the edge of Filipino.
It informs the world of the name as imperialism. A big restraint and pressure will ..(.. be applied to Asia, Puerto Rico, and Hawaii. Worldwide powers. US citizen supports the war by Justice. Roosevelt hesitated to boycott the Japanese, put out the immigrant exclusion method in 1924, and the large war of Japanese vs United States broke out. Roosevelt is known because it failed in the tariff reform.

It has put it around from the White House according to timing best as an American presidential election becomes a good excuse, and it seems to have caused the recession. (To support the country-making at the business center. )
78

Scotch man,

23/01/2008 04:55:12
"The U.S. west war in 1898"

Correction;

"The U.S Spanish war in 1898"
79

Scotch man,

Other 23/01/2008 04:56:32
Is the United States tenable still?
80

Scotch man,

Other 23/01/2008 05:09:55
With this, the unit is not recognized still.
81

Annlass,

Toronto, ON 23/01/2008 10:05:13
The US lowered interest rates by three quarters of a point today. Canada lowered interest rates by one quarter.
Ray of sunshine for Canadian investers as yesterdays loss was all recovered today. Pray that it will continue tomorrow. The Canadian dollar is still strong and I am learning to speak Mandarin.

 

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