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Soldiers do have human rights in war zones, judge tells ministers



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Published Date: 12 April 2008
THE Ministry of Defence could face a flood of damages claims from families of soldiers killed in action following a legal ruling that sending troops into battle with defective equipment may breach their human rights.
In a test case over the death of Scottish Territorial Army soldier Private Jason Smith, who suffered heatstroke in temperatures of at least 50C in Iraq, Mr Justice Collins said human-rights laws could apply to troops serving abroad.

He also ruled the families of those killed in conflict should get legal aid and access to military documents. Des Browne, the Defence Secretary, said the government would appeal the court's decision.

Pte Smith's mother, Catherine Smith, from Hawick, welcomed the ruling. "I am delighted with the judgment. It is obvious soldiers should be treated with the same respect and the same rights as everyone else," she said.

"We are asking them to fight for this country and it is shameful that the Defence Secretary thinks that their human rights should be removed in the process."

The MoD had argued that it was "impossible to afford to soldiers who were on active service outside their bases the benefits of the Human Rights Act".

Mr Justice Collins said it had to be recognised that the lives of members of the armed forces "cannot receive absolute protection". But he also added: "The soldier does not lose all protection simply because he is in hostile territory carrying out dangerous operations. Thus, for example, to send a soldier out on patrol or, indeed, into battle with defective equipment could constitute a breach of Article 2 (right to life] under the European Convention on Human Rights."

British servicemen and women were entitled to some measure of legal protection "wherever they may be".

The judge also rejected Mr Browne's bid to ban coroners from using phrases such as "serious failure" – implying criticism of the Ministry of Defence and its agents – in verdicts on soldiers who had died in active service.

Clarification of the law came as the judge laid down guidelines for the future conduct of inquests.

The request for guidelines came in the case of Pte Smith. The 32-year-old was serving with the Territorial Army in Maysan province, Iraq, when, on 13 August, 2003, he collapsed and died in a corridor.

The judge did not specifically address the question whether families will be able to sue for compensation if human rights are breached, or whether Crown immunity will block claims.

The MoD said it did not consider that the judgment reflected legal precedents on the application of Article 1 and Article 2 of the convention.

But John Cooper, a barrister representing two of the ten families involved in the ongoing inquest into an RAF Hercules shot down in Iraq, said the ruling will "quite obviously" increase the chances of relatives suing for damages.

Mr Cooper said the judgment "clarifies beyond all doubt that the government is responsible under human-rights law for soldiers operating in theatres outside of the state jurisdiction.

"This is important not only in terms of the range of inquests which can now occur, but also as to the potential liability of the government for compensation for breaches of Article 2."

The father of a paratrooper killed in a firefight in Afghanistan, amid a lack of night-vision goggles, said he believed the ruling would aid his own legal battle with the MoD.

Anthony Philippson first threatened to sue the MoD last month, demanding that it accept liability for the death of his son, Captain James Philippson, in Helmand Province in 2006.

Mr Browne refused to comment on the judgment, but told The Scotsman he was "very proud of the advances we have made in terms of equipment and equipping our soldiers".

Ruling caps bad week in courts for Brown

THE historic ruling yesterday on the human rights of military personnel caps a dreadful week for Gordon Brown and his government in the courts.

In just four days, the UK government has lost four high-profile cases.

On Tuesday, High Court judge Sir George Newman found that new government rules making it harder for skilled immigrants to remain in Britain were illegal.

The following day, Islamic preacher Abu Qatada, dubbed "Osama bin Laden's right-hand man in Europe", won an appeal against deportation to Jordan as some evidence against him was the result of torture.

On Thursday, the High Court ruled it was illegal for the government to stop a Serious Fraud Office investigation into BAE's £43 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia because of Saudi threats over ending their co-operation in the war against terror.

A spokesman for the SNP said the rulings showed it was better for powers on defence and human rights to be transferred to Holyrood.

He added: "The irony is that in areas of policy currently reserved to Westminster, Labour's entire case in Scotland is 'London knows best'. The reality is Brown's government is making a hash of things."

However, a spokesman for the UK government said that the significance of the rulings was being overblown.

Coroner not afraid to ask hard questions in pursuit of justice

ANDREW Walker, Oxfordshire's assistant deputy coroner, is a thorn in the side of the government but a hero to many military families.

Mr Walker has unflinchingly exposed the Ministry of Defence's shortcomings in his pursuit of justice for families of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

He is acknowledged by service families as one of the few officials to take their grievances seriously, willing to question the government line if it will lead him to the truth.

He is responsible for the inquests as the bodies of servicemen who die overseas are returned to RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire.

He attacked US authorities over the death of Matty Hill in a friendly-fire incident in Iraq in 2003. And

in his verdict on the death of Captain James Philippson in Afghanistan, he placed the blame squarely on the MoD.



The full article contains 1007 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 April 2008 8:52 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: British armed forces
 
1

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/04/2008 00:07:02
When I was in the army the equipment was more important than we were - and we were made aware of that. Changed days it appears.
2

Colin R,

BEarsden 12/04/2008 00:40:45
JOck the trouble is Des Brown is a lawyer ( and a poor one at that ), a liar ( Cockpit video, sailors stories, forces pay/ housing/hospital care - he has apologised to the house of commons for his lies several times) is finacially driven

He doesn't give too hoots about Matty Hull or Sergeant Roberts- he cares about the snivelling serpent typist awarded £414000 compensation not the limbless soldier who got £16000.

There is a promotion freeze in the NAvy and RRAF just now but not among sniveling serpents who keep messing up procurement and logistics.

Labour under Brown are using the MOD budget to bribe civil servants to vote labour-disgraceful

Des Browne makes Ruth Kelly and DOuglas ALexander look effective

3

indune1,

Canada 12/04/2008 02:00:29

If you did military service then you must have been the ubiquitous "barrack-room lawyer".

You don't have the first f**king clue of what it is to be in uniform and serve by the code that binds all - regardless of rank.

"Thank God for an unelected, (almost) impartial judiciary." That's just the point, the judiciary are appointed - not elected.


From the article: "Thus, for example, to send a soldier out on patrol or, indeed, into battle with defective equipment could constitute a breach of Article 2 (right to life] under the European Convention on Human Rights."

Oh great, now we have the brigades of Euro-lawyers salivating.

Sure, soldiers go into battle with defective equipment - sometimes simply because the equipment is tested for the first time in combat situations and is found wanting.

Regardless, soldiers also understand that in any given situation, they will do the best with what they have; follow orders; strive to achieve to their objective, but above all, always check the 6 of their chum and expect them to do the same.

Pianist- continue to tickle your ivories. You know not of what you speak.








4

indune1,

Canada 12/04/2008 02:01:34

Posting 5 in response to #3.
5

Colin R,

Bearsden 12/04/2008 02:28:37
rather than appeal Des Browne ( a Solicitor )should concentrate his deprtments efforts and money on getting helicopters, close air support, armour and ECM devices, foam tanks to theatre

But he won't just as he, Reid and that ned Ingram repeatedly failed to do= cost lives
6

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 12/04/2008 06:46:23
Question: will this legalism make beating our enemies harder or easier?

A: harder and ever more expensive.

Fighting for one's country is, by definition, dangerous. Warriors know this and fight; wimps don't and go to court.

By all means treat loyal soldiers well and fairly, but let's not lose our wars because we want to win our legal battles.
7

Mashimaro,

China 12/04/2008 06:58:31
You have no idea how funny this is to other people
8

Conan the Librarian™,

12/04/2008 07:34:07
9
Other people?

There are military situations where"human rights" do not matter a damn.
Caring for your wounded should matter a damn...
9

danielrober,

12/04/2008 08:00:31
If a serving member of the armed forces is injured or killed by faulty equipment then the maufacturing company needs to be sued. If an equipment supplier or storer, has provided substandard arms then chanrges of 'Man Slaughter' should be applied.

We live in a modern high techology age were a degree of assurance can be povided for equipment. Many poduction companies go after military contracts for the money, but also for the credibility. They should not be blinded by the cash. These are the toughest working conditions in the world, demanding equally tough standards.

Government needs to back up the armed forces with solid quality control and legal support. But it also needs to be aware that the Army, Royal Navy and Royal Air Force are the equipment and conditions experts here, not Lawyers.
10

big big fun,

12/04/2008 08:04:14
to think no the right equipment against these nasty nasty tribesmen in sandals .
11

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 12/04/2008 08:12:40
I recommend setting up a specialist unit of human rights and compensation lawyers which will accompany our troops right to the front line in Afghanistan, working on a no win-no fee basis. They can try out the equipment for themselves under fire. Step forward creatures like Gareth Pierce, Aamer Anwer, Tony Kelly and Michael Mansfield. I suspect we might have a wee wait.
12

Fenland Farmer,

Cromwell's England 12/04/2008 08:43:03
In an interview yesterday, the part time Defence Secretary Browne stated that the equpment problems existed 24 months ago but today our armed forces are amongst the best equipped in the world. ER?
Just remind me WHO was responsible for our people two years ago and is this part timer actually saying that we fought Blair's war in Iraq with inferior equipment?
On 1 May we vote in England for our local Councils. Show time! Make room in Scotland to receive Brown & Browne back home full time in the next 24 months.

As for Blair, well he looks set to become the First President of Europe with his own "White House" & Euro Air Force One.What a thought!
13

JimC,

Kilmarnock 12/04/2008 08:48:53
A spokesman for the SNP said the rulings showed it was better for powers on defence and human rights to be transferred to Holyrood.

I notice not one comment on this sentence from the article. What fool of a spokesman said this, if this really the comment from an official spokesman from the SNP? If it is then I can only say it is either a tongue in cheek comment designed to hit back at Des Browne or they have completely lost their marbles.
14

whitegold,

Shire 12/04/2008 09:00:41
Why does anyone vote Labour? Words fail me. I've seen some lies and sleaze from Labour before but even this leaves me stunned.

Labour want to be free to provide sub-standard or insufficient equipment to troops. Then when pressed on this Des Browne has claimed there is no problem with equipment (which is a lie).

But if British forces are 'the best equipped in the world' as Labour claim, why are they so adamant that they shouldn't be accountable for providing dud equipment?

Not only are Labour barefaced liars over this, but they refuse to accept simple responsibility. If you deliberately fail to supply reasonable equipment to say construction workers you would be guilty.

Perhaps the expenses Labour have gluttoned themselves on could be spent on troops equipment.

Sorry but anyone who votes Labour is a brainless & brianwashed drone. Labour is more of a cult than a political party; a cult that brainwashes its pathetic believers that it holds values that it clearly does not.

I've often wondered why people are dumb enough to believe and follow weird cults that are obviously ripping people off or sexually exploiting them - yet despite the objective evidence they are mindless devotees who refuse to accept the facts.

Well apparently this malady is quite widespread. Any Labour voter is the same mindless devotee who fanatically believes despite the facts.
15

subrosa,

12/04/2008 09:03:16
I've campaigned for the military to be given the protection of the Human Rights Act for a long while now. At last a judge not in the pocket of Westminister.

Why should a soldier get no protection from their country when abroad and a British diplomat get every protection going?

Drug pushing illegal immigrants to this country get better protection from us than our troops.

I don't care what it costs, Westminster must pay.
16

Guga II,

Rockall 12/04/2008 09:07:01
A Solomon come to judgement.

It's about time the war criminal Broon, and his war criminal cabinet were taken to task for sending soldiers to fight with poor, shoddy, sub-standard equipment, shortages of equipment etc. They should also be taken to task for the sub-standard medical care received by the forces, and the sub-standard housing they have for them at home.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of the illegal war in Iraq, the forces have to go where they are sent. It is obviously not too much to ask that when they are sent, they have decent equipment. Obviously equipment gets lost and damaged in the field, but that is totally different from being given sub-standard or insufficient equipment to start with.

Would Broon or Browne (the part-time wallah) send their children to fight in Iraq? No, just like Bliar, they wouldn't risk their families in an illegal war. If it wasn't an illegal war, and their children were forced to go, you can be certain that they would make sure their children had only the very bst of equipment.

#9 Mushy Marrow (The Rabid Rabbit). We know what your gangster government thinks. They send heavily armed troops in to slaughter innocent civilians. As that former head thug used to say, "power comes from the barrel of a gun". Away and read up on genocide, a***hole.
17

Alfred E. Neuman,

12/04/2008 09:24:32
I'm glad to hear not giving a soldier a Kevlar vest is going to be made very expensive.

There are too many Lawyers and Union apes in this country getting very rich for subverting common sense.

Giving a Soldier the equipment he needs shouldn't have to be legislated for? It should be automatic.

Labour are a disgrace.
18

tommy,

belfast uk 12/04/2008 09:30:36
Obviously the front benches should be made to serve 6 months on the front lines then you would see improvements
19

Unimpressed one,

12/04/2008 09:40:56
I think talk of soldiers human rights is a bit pathetic when after all they are destroying the human lives of the 'enemy' without a thought. Still it shows PC our world has become.
20

Bob Christie,

12/04/2008 09:51:16
#17 Well said

Of course the Liebour Party should never have committed these troops to their illegal wars in the first place.
21

Tim C,

Somewhere in England 12/04/2008 10:06:34
16 Whitegold makes a point; socialism and islam have a lot in common, which might be why the British government are so half hearted in their struggle against the Islamists. And faint hearts never won.
The British Prime Minister has a bomb proof vehicle, but a lot of soldiers do not have that luxury. And Desmond Henry B is also Secretary of State for Scotland, so that is a double insult; make an official post 'part time' and then appoint a numbskull.
22

Nellie,

Liverpool 12/04/2008 10:16:36
#4 Quite right!
I've raised the same question as you. If the Government refused to tell the Scotsman why information was being withheld, I'm sure we'd all hear about it from the Scotsman's Editor! Yet we get no explanation when the Scotsman decides to withhold information from us. It would be so easy ... e.g
Reason: Profound language
Reason: Potentially slanderous
Reason: Off topic
But all we get is ... nothing!
23

hibbydoug,

edinburgh 12/04/2008 10:25:39
So now we have the left wing judges running our army?, utter garbage -how can you ever be totally protected against anything?.If this becomes law can i bring a lawsuit against the MOD for the loss of a relative in WW2..they never had proper air cover at Singapore ...so am i due millions ? of course not, if you join the forces you take the risks that go with it.
Maybe when i am not properly protected by our armed forces because of this rulling i could bring a lawssuit against the gudge?.
24

Jimmy the Pie,

12/04/2008 10:37:55
If any of the politicians families served in the front line I would have more respect for them - Leo Blair springing immediately to mind.
25

Nellie,

Liverpool 12/04/2008 10:42:14
#5 Oh, right. So, you'd be prepared to have a firefight in the desert with the enemy with green "camouflage" clothes so you are an easy target because the MOD/Army didn't give you the correct desert gear? You'd be happy to do the same without a flak jacket because the jackets were sitting in a warehouse instead of where they should have been, protecting you? You'd be content to go into a night fight without night goggles? You'd be happy to know you can be out-gunned by a bunch of Taliban because the MOD/Army had not equipped you with arms that are standard issue? You'd be happy to be flown in a a fleet of Hercules that has a well-known design flaw that could have been fixed for much less than the cost of one Trident missile? Of course you would and your family would be happy, nay joyous, when you died for your Country unnecessarily for want of any of these things. Why, such a death would make you a hero and bring great happiness for your family which they would not have had if you'd returned home alive.
26

hibbydoug,

edinburgh 12/04/2008 10:44:54
Yup
27

bluehead,

edinburgh 12/04/2008 11:09:59
about time to!we should send these bampot politicians
to fight these crazy wars they get people into.
you would think they would be to busy counting their huge wages,their huge expenses,and their huge pensions
to worry about other people's problems
all you need to be succsessful as a politician is a twelve inch think brass neck!!!!
28

shivago8,

livingston 12/04/2008 11:17:36
Here comes the famous cliche.
The MOD do not make comments on the defence.
Dessie boy it looks like this time you have got no options
It will cost the taxpayer but at least you will not be able to throw the lambs to the slaughter like you have done.
The whole of the new new new new labour party should sit back and say,"I played a part in these young sodjers spilling their blood"
Lord have mercy on you
29

Toast,

12/04/2008 11:23:12
Any employee should be provided with the tools to do their job properly and safely,any employer fail to comply should be liable,Des Brown personally should be held responcible,a few months in jail and a huge fine might wipe the smile of his smug face.
30

Iain fae Elgin,

12/04/2008 11:37:56
#18...

Exactly.

I find it disgraceful that the MOD allows, for example, RAF personel to fly in Nimrod aircraft that are known to have a fatal flaw in them, that could be fixed if the money was spent.

It's a sad way to go, but if it takes a few high profile losses in the courts for the government to pull its finger out then so be it.
31

Bob Christie,

12/04/2008 11:39:55
#25
Come back when you have found the plot!
32

Boggle fey the Bog,

12/04/2008 11:41:50
25 hibbydoug,edinburgh 12/04/2008 10:25:39
"So now we have the left wing judges running our army?, utter garbage -how can you ever be totally protected against anything?.If this becomes law can i bring a lawsuit against the MOD for the loss of a relative in WW2..they never had proper air cover at Singapore ...so am i due millions ? of course not, if you join the forces you take the risks that go with it.
Maybe when i am not properly protected by our armed forces because of this ruling i could bring a laws suit against the grudge?."

If the court has ruled in it's favour it is LAW!!!!

It has always been a covenant between Government and the armed forces, that the government would provide the proper equipment for the armed forces to carry-out the tasks asked of them, unfortunately in the last 40 years successive governments in the UK have reneged on this covenant, from the Falklands to Bosnia, from Iraq to Afghanistan the story has been the same.

Thank providence for the sense and impartiality of the Judges in this case.

Let's all just hope that the rule of law will be adhered to!!!

Unfortunately this criminal government has demonstrated on many occasions that it is not minded to obey the law of the land.

As for your comments on Singapore, I am sorry that you lost relatives there, I to have lost friends and relatives to enemy action, but it has absolutely no relevance to the current judgement.
33

Mcsnagpile,

12/04/2008 11:42:31
Mugabe seems to be causing a lot of news space recently. A little country in the middle of an African continent soaked in corruption, genocide, disease and pandemonium. At least he did not send his troops to invade Iraq. Why not demand every one else in Africa to have democracy-Starting from the Med and working downwards.
The Dalai Lama is getting a lot of news, because as an unelected head of a religious sect he somehow has political importance??

A million+ miscellaneous Iraqis dead maimed forgotten.
One thing I can say about the old Iraqi WRITTEN constitution it was a lot better than we have; the right to free medicine for all; the right of free education for all.

Volunteer UK troops can always vote with their feet.

Most Moslems are just people trying to survive, make a living, and do what every one else is trying to do this crazy world. They do not need loud-mouthed nutty Imams to boss them around, or hot-headed so-called fundamentalists, or idiot brained politicians.

It is about time the head bangers that keep the potboiling got put into their own pots.
34

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

12/04/2008 11:46:57
As far as I am concerned soldiers should expect to have access to fully working equipment either arms or protective clothing etc if required. If they are asked to for example visit the area of a chemical gas attack without breathing gear or to use weapons they know will not work then they have a right to expect something to be done about it, or to say no. Hence the MOD or suppliers should be held to account in these cases. However this does not mean they can suddenly start saying "no sorry don't want to do that". Hence the law will have to be very finely balanced, otherwise our armies will only be staffed during peacetime... which really defeats the point of an army.
35

Paddi,

12/04/2008 11:52:02
#16 Why do people vote Labour?

Easy really; bribes, promises & fear.

Bribed into voting by giving them useless and unnecessary jobs working either for central or local government. Bribed by being second/third generation on handouts with no questions asked, with the state and us taxpayers picking up the bill for keeping them whilst they go about their business on the black economy. The promise that things will get better, no other party helps them. the promise that they’ll be able to be socially mobile (a contradiction, someone always has to be at the top, middle and bottom). The promise that after 11 years its only them who after unprecedented tax take can sort out crime, education and health…..all three are getting worse and we’re still waiting
Lastly fear, if you don't vote Labour, the SNP or Tories will get in, then you can forget about your useless jobs and you can forget about the easy handouts.

These are the reasons , thankfully the people of Scotland have been given a palatable alternative, expect a landslide SNP victory next time around.
36

M.T.,

12/04/2008 12:18:11
# 17 subrosa,12/04/2008 09:03:16

"I've campaigned for the military to be given the protection of the Human Rights Act for a long while now"

You should not have had to. No one should have to fight the government for this basic requirement.

Politicians need our respect. It cannot be given to them whilst situations like this exist.
37

Biker,

Ayr 12/04/2008 13:10:31
Sadly this situation has existed long before Labour got to power. Over decade the militery have had to put up with less and less finance, more mergers (for Fiscal reasons) and poor relationships with government. Ships are made of substandard material, rifles that jam in the desert of poor weather ect.
The government owes a duty of care to those whom it sends into battle, and clearly this has not been happening. The reports of militery personnel buying boots and clothing at Millets and Blacks are legion. I disagree over the validity of the Iraq fiasco, but we should be taking better care of troops engaged, and indeed injured as a result.
Mashimaro, you are a five star chromium plated idiot,.
38

Bouncing Boy,

12/04/2008 13:19:53
Public opinion and common decency had no effect on Browne in relation to providing proper equipment. This judge used the one thing that will make him do something about it rather than just spouting his lies.

The government will finally provide troops with equipment they deserve.

No doubt in many years Labour will claim that it was their government that introduced new measures to ensure troops get proper, working equipment.
39

Paul Carline,

Scotland 12/04/2008 13:26:54
Who is looking after the human rights of the populations of Afghanistan and Iraq (reliably estimated dead and injured directly or indirectly as a result of the invasions and occupations now around 3 million)?

Both these wars are violations of international law i.e. war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide.

We should be more concerned about ministers and military commanders sending soldiers into illegal wars than about whether the soldiers have the right equipment. They shouldn't be there in the first place.
40

bill-alba,

Fife 12/04/2008 13:32:00
#39 Have to agree with you..
Ships that went to the Falklands were 25 ft shorter and had less armanents than the equivalent ones that were sold to Argentina and all to save a few quid. (and of course the ladders that were made of aluminium - which the mod were well aware of prior to the falklands that they melted).
41

MichScot,

USA 12/04/2008 13:39:31
Haven't read the article. Some rights for soldiers are very important, but I fear that we as free people will eventually have so many rights that others will come in and take them all away (by claiming THEIR human rights) because we will have lost discernment.
42

Anthony,

Glasgow 12/04/2008 13:46:32
(8) Do you drive? If so, do you accept that everytime you take to the highway there is an element of risk? If so, does that justify the garage who serviced your car and did your MOT, leaving the wheel bolts loose, and failing to check the brake fluid?

It's exactly the same principle here. Just because soldiers embrace risk in their duties, is not excuse for being reckless with their saftety. The judges were absolutely right, and I salute them. Thank goodness for our independent judiciary - it must be defended come what may.
43

Tris,

12/04/2008 14:54:23
#8.
"A: harder and ever more expensive."


So, if we can't afford to do it properly, perhaps we shouldn't do it at all. After all, exactly what good has it done? What have all these people died for? So that Haliburton can get rich?

Of course fighting is dangerous, so is being a policeman or a fireman, and no one is FORCED to do it, but that doesn't mean that we can say, "sorry, can't afford the proper equipment, can't afford to treat you like human beings, can't be a##ed to work out stratagies properly.... but we'll gag the Coroner's Court so that no-one ever gets to find out about it."

This from a pathetic prime minister who lectured us only a few weeks ago about showing respect to the troops.

Brown genuinely makes me want to vomit, the most unseccessful prime minister we ever had. And Browne.... can't put here what I think about him.

Let's just say he should lose his seat at the next election. His constituents deserve a human being as an MP.

44

Tris,

Dundee 12/04/2008 14:57:58

typo... successful.

#44

Yes, in times of corrupt government, an independent judiciary is a blessing.

45

Davie08,

Edinburgh 12/04/2008 15:21:28
Des Browne, the words 'shabby' and 'ridiculous' come to mind. So do several other ones.
46

Proximaking,

Dundee 12/04/2008 18:18:05
Very good note form Paddi at #37. The only problem is the SNP are unlikely to be any better given their head. There'd be more money for troops and equipment if council joiners in Dundee for example were actually expected to be working for all of the hours they were paid for. Most start at 8am and are gone by 1pm, in the social work department one of the "high heid yins" works in the morning and "attends meetings" every afternoon, her husband who also works there works his day the "other way round" but in reality the "meetings" are actually code for watching their kids. This is known about and tolerated. In Aberdeen council employees are paid "double time" for having "relations" with the council leaders, is it any wonder they are in debt but note they are not stopping paying council employees they are just closing the facilities to the public. So we get none of the benefits of these taxes but all of the dis-benefits. And what does the SNP say about all of this? Nothing, they don't want to upset the trades unions who see nothing wrong in a bit of "payback" by diddling rich council taxpayers out of their money in fact Salmond offers to help Aberdeen. How? By allowing them to pay "triple time" for fleecing the taxpayers? Everything is computerised, why can't I decide where my tax money is spent? I don't think any would be spent on council facilities or tvs, music systems etc etc in jails for those who simply aren't mug enough to get out of bed every morning and do something called work. All of the tax would be spent on people willing to work. Shannon's mother was given £21k every year, that's £30k before tax, to drag her kids up, why are we the taxpayers paying single mothers who on every scale of measurement fail their kids massively compared to two parent families or one parent familes where the father has the kids? It couldn't be good old fashioned sexism could it? Soldiers being shot at the front should make us consider everything leading up to it and all of it shou
47

Proximaking,

Dundee 12/04/2008 18:19:18
It couldn't be good old fashioned sexism could it? Soldiers being shot at the front should make us consider everything leading up to it and all of it should be up for changing and we should start by allowing those who payto decide where their tax monies go. lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
48

Biker,

Ayr 12/04/2008 18:30:10
Paul Carline. You do indeed have a point my friend. Bith the fiascos currently involved areileagal and against world opinion. But as the thread is about soldiers dieing due to ministerial neglect perhaps the matter of Afganistan and Iraq could be held until the subject is raised. Although I agree wholeheartedly
49

John Blackley,

Florida 12/04/2008 20:05:34
Where can I read the details of the judge's decision? (as they're pretty skimpy here).

I understand that the judge has said that sending a soldier on patrol with "defective equipment" may constitute a breach of his human rights. What I foresee from this is a veritable banquet for the lawyers and not much for the soldiers and their families.

What, for example, constitutes 'defective'? Something that is completely non-functional (like a gun without a firing pin) or something that does not function well?

Who decides that a piece of equipment is 'defective' and when must that decision be recorded to constitute a breach of the soldier's human rights?

What if the soldier is issued a Browning rifle in perfect condition and told to go on patrol? Does that constitute a breach of his human rights?

Manna from heaven for lawyers indeed. I wonder if insurgents will be mindful of our soldiers' human rights the next time they have on in their sights?
50

indune1,

Canada 12/04/2008 20:05:42

24 - Nellie - I think you meant profane language. However, the Hootsman's moderator(s) could well be biased against the expression of profound thoughts. Surely, you don't speak from personal experience?

27 - Nellie (again)- So many questions! Aren't you the inquisitive one?

You missed my point.

Soldiers often live and die defending an ignoble cause (some say illegal). They are sometimes asked to do so with inadequate and inferior equipment. At the end of the day, all they have is a common bond and trust.

Any person who joins the military expecting perfection is a fool and a dangerous one at that.

Question is: why do UK voters keep on electing such liars, cheats and incompetents who determine military matters? I have not witnessed any demonstrations and mass marches on Westminster demanding larger armed forces and the budgets to support them. So why the latent concern?

Oh by the way, to paraphrase Patton: dying for one's country is flat out stupid. Making your opponent die for his is the smart move ( In truth, this profound statement was made in more profane language!. :)
51

indune1,

Canada 12/04/2008 20:09:45

51 - Johnny - Stand by for incoming from Nellie the Scouser for your sentiments mirror mine in posting #5.

However, what will Nellie do if her verbal mortar round proves to be a dud? I know, she'll phone her lawyer!
52

Graeme,

Now Hong kong 12/04/2008 21:04:52
Gaga,

You are a disgrace. More should pick up on it. You made all your money from, as you call it the butcher’s apron. Shame on you and the Scottish people whom you embarrass.
53

westview,

wondering why. 12/04/2008 21:10:25
Why are the jobs of Minister of Defence and Secretary of State for Scotland done (messed up), by the same man? Out of the hundreds of Labour MPs,our taxes pay for, is their no one competent enough to do either one of these important jobs ,so one man has to do both? Our brave forces personnel deserve better than someones part time attention. At least if local control of the Scottish defence forces were returned to Scotland, we would have no need for a Westminster puppet, doing two jobs, as Secretary of State. Why ,when Queen Lizzy 2, is in charge of UK armed forces and the head of State ,does she not pay for their needed equipment? Roll on a fully European defence force payed for in Euro's to defend Europe's borders.
54

indune1,

Canada 12/04/2008 21:19:59
55 - Westview - "Roll on a fully European defence force payed for in Euro's to defend Europe's borders".

GTF! Just like the United Nations? Who will command or direct such a formidable force? Define European and where do Europe's borders start and end?
55

shivago8,

livingston 13/04/2008 09:45:12
Putting on a uniform does not exclude them from there human rights.
Future governments will think long and hard before they commit our armed forces to any other conflicts.
Mind you our senior army commanders should take stick as well,they knew that the troops were not ready for war and they should have told our snouts in the trough politits that,but then again,would they not lose out on their enhancements and pensions,greed overtakes deaths because of ill equipped sodjers
56

tomfrom66,

Thornton Cleveleys 13/04/2008 17:56:20
I wonder how many of the bloggers on here have actually followed some of the stunts that the useless MoD have been involved in, most especially the Nimrod explosion which killed 14 airmen:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/7063747.stm

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2216540,00.html
57

indune1,

Canada 14/04/2008 00:41:29

What's your point?
58

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 14/04/2008 03:49:10
This ruling means that politicians must ask "are the troops properly equiped' BEFORE they send troops off to wage war in foriegn battle fields. This is different to the situation where a foriegn force attacks troops on home soil. However a government that is not prepared for such an attack will not warm the government benches for long.
59

westview,

Europe 14/04/2008 16:52:57
*56*. The borders of the European Union would be a good start. Possible expansion to include Israel and the former USSR ,if they agree? Perhaps North Americans ,like yourself would be uncomfortable with such a large rival power block?
60

indune1,

Canada 14/04/2008 22:49:55
Wromgview - nah, we had you b**stards over here for centuries f**king things up.

By the way, I am not a North Smerican. I am a Canadian
61

indune1,

Canada 14/04/2008 22:52:30
61 - When you include Israel you are really are losing the plot in defining Euorpean.

Same with the expansion in NATO's membership nowadays. Getting more dysfunctional with every passing day.

 

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