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Brian Monteith: Early independence referendum would get my vote



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Published Date: 04 April 2008
LET'S have that referendum – now! It is time. The indecision, the equivocation and prevarication, it all has to end. Just last weekend Scotland's richest individual said he would welcome a vote on Scotland's future within the United Kingdom so that we might know the direction the country is headed, and he's not the first to say this.
Tom Hunter, the self-made billionaire, said we would be better deciding what we wanted now than having a long-drawn out breakdown with all the uncertainty that would accompany such indecision.

In business, as in most other spheres of life, uncerta
inty is worse than dealing with a known or predictable difficulty.

The idea that Scotland cannot stand on its own two feet economically is, of course, laughable. The question is not if we could do it but what would it be like if we did – and that's where the problems start. Many of the people that point to successful small independent countries also happen to support economic or social policies that have manifestly failed in countries across the world.

Scotland's attitude – or at least the attitude of many commentators and politicians who claim to speak for the people – towards individual wealth and the making of money has the potential to be a serious obstacle.

While Thatcherism brought modernisation, individual liberation and economic progress in Scotland, we have never recognised the good it did us. Instead we have created a whole mythology built on the painful social price that had to be paid – a price, I may add, that was made expensive by the cumulative mistakes of premiers from Macmillan through to Callaghan.

Just how is an independent Scotland to prosper if it is not to be a highly attractive place for people to make money – and to spend it at their leisure?

A couple of weeks back I wrote about how Alistair Darling's new £30,000 poll tax on all British residents with non-domestic earnings would hurt Edinburgh as well as the City of London. It didn't take long before the evidence backed me up.

This week Carol Colburn Hogel, a huge benefactor to the Edinburgh International Festival through the charitable trust called the Dunard Fund, announced she was leaving our city to relocate back in North America. She complained not just about the principle of the Non-Dom Poll Tax but about the attitude of Scots that would be happy to see the back of her and her altruistic donations.

Such critics do exist – I know because they often populate the comment section at the end of my articles on the Evening News website!

Alex Salmond says he wants a referendum – but not just yet. He wants time to show that nationalists are not "swivel-eyed anti-English bigots" like those the Scotland Secretary said populate Salmond's Great Conversation website. Surely if independence is a good thing we should not wait any longer for it?

So let's have a vote about Scotland's future.

If it's to be in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland then let's commit to that and tell our politicians to stop pontificating about which constitutional set-up we should have.

If it's to be an independent Scotland then fine, but let's hear what it will be like – rather than pretend it can be a socialist nirvana, an Albania with (depleting) oil for the MacComrades, or a tax haven, a wet and windy Dubai for the MacThatchers.

It can't be both and this dithering is hurting us.

Football's own goal
FULL marks to Spartans AFC for pointing out the blindingly obvious – that Scottish football is in an utter mess.

Why should Spartans not be able to become a new franchise in Scottish football? The answer is because we have a restrictive practice that prevents the pyramid system, whereby clubs play their way up the leagues, and stops clubs bidding for a place in the system. Instead, we have a group of clubs – especially in the lower leagues – that have used their positions to block and barter before voting for new entrants into their exclusive club.

But like it or not, football is a business and without paying customers – as is the case at Gretna – clubs will ultimately fail and should be replaced by those that can attract the crowds.

Cuba's new revolution
QUIETLY but gradually, Cuba is changing. If you buy a Cuban cigar as an ardent supporter of its outdated and almost unique form of socialism you are probably unaware that the monopoly export company Habanos SA is fifty per cent owned by Britain's Imperial Tobacco. Now a new public private partnership is being set up to provide mobile telephones for Cubans – a highly profitable opportunity given that Cuba has the lowest ownership of cell phones in Latin America. Coming soon is a plan to allow ordinary Cubans to stay in tourist hotels. Maybe they'll let them leave the country next?





The full article contains 827 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 04 April 2008 4:45 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Brian Monteith
 
1

Wardog,

Buckie 04/04/2008 10:43:32

The Gradualist Agenda has got the Unionists rattled. and on the run

They are terrified of a period of reasoned comparison of the merits of independence and all now calling for snap elections to try and 'shoot the nationalist fox'

What a joke.

The Unionists would have us decide the future of this nation on a 4 week programme of electioneering rather than gathering evidence on the perceived benefits and drawbacks...... the best bit though is that the Liberals have managed to coerse Labour into the commission for greater powers...... wait and see the flares go up when it becomes obvious that brown is tampering with the process......

Three Option Referendum in 2011

1. Status Quo
2. Greater Powers defined by Liberals
3. Independence defined by SNP

Labour & the Tories completely marginalised

Bring it on.




2

Wardog,

Buckie 04/04/2008 10:44:51


All done under STV........

Arguing that systems such as STV should be rejected because not everyone understands voting in any way other than placing one X next to one candidate seems a bit mean towards the electorate. Instructions on ballot papers are easy to follow. If you’re told to place a ‘1’ by your favourite candidate, a ‘2’ by your second-favourite and so on, it’s pretty clear what to do.

If you can list five things in order of preference, you can understand your role in an STV election. To suggest otherwise is like suggesting that if you don’t understand the intricate workings of an internal combustion engine, you are incapable of making a car move.

What voters in STV elections do know is that casting a vote for their preferred candidate and/or party broadly helps determine final representation.

In some ways, voting in an STV election is actually simpler than voting with the old ‘firstpast-the-post’ system. In an STV election, you rank your choices, safe in the knowledge that you won’t be accidentally helping one of the candidates you really dislike. In a ‘first-pastthe- post’ election, you cannot guarantee this, which is why so many people vote ‘tactically’, i.e. not for their favourite candidate, but for the one with the best chance of keeping out a candidate they dislike. No need for such ‘tactics’ with STV.

If you can list five things in order of preference, you can understand your role in an STV election
3

Wardog,

Buckie 04/04/2008 10:46:12

More benefits of STV

STV gives voters more choice than any other system. This in turn puts most power in the hands of the voters, rather than the party heads, who under other systems can more easily determine who is elected, meaning that under STV MPs' responsibilities lie more with the electorate than those above them in their party.

Fewer votes are 'wasted' (i.e. cast for losing candidates or unnecessarily cast for the winner) under STV. This means that most voters can identity a representative that they personally helped to elect. Such a link in turn increases a representative's accountability.

It is also worth noting that when viewed as a group, politicians are largely disliked and distrusted, but when taken individually are fairly well thought of. Increasing the personal attachment between a politician and the people can thus help engender a more harmonious relationship between the voters and their representatives.

With STV and multi-member constituencies, parties have a powerful electoral incentive to present a balanced team of candidates in order to maximise the number of higher preferences that would go to their sponsored candidates. This helps the advancement of women and ethnic-minority candidates, who are often overlooked in favour of a 'safer' looking candidate.

STV offers voters a choice of representatives to approach with their concerns post-election, rather than just the one, who may not be at all sympathetic to a voter's views, or may even be the cause of the concern.

Parliament is more likely to be both reflective of a nation's views and more responsive to them. Parties are broad coalitions, and can be markedly split on certain key issues, such as war. With only one party person per constituency to choose, the representatives elected may well not reflect the views of their electorate.

Many voters in the UK general election of 2005 were faced with a dilemma, as they wanted to support a certain party, but did not want to suppor
4

Wardog,

Buckie 04/04/2008 10:46:36
continued....

Many voters in the UK general election of 2005 were faced with a dilemma, as they wanted to support a certain party, but did not want to support the war in Iraq. STV would have helped them express these views much more clearly.

Under STV, as opposed to hybrid systems such as AMS, all MPs are elected on the same basis, thus lessening the chances of there being animosity between them.

There are no safe seats under STV, meaning candidates cannot be complacent and parties must campaign everywhere, and not just in marginal seats.

When voters have the ability to rank candidates, the most disliked candidate cannot win, as they are no good at picking up second-, third- and lower-preference votes.

By encouraging candidates to seek first-, as well as lower-preference votes, the efficacy of negative campaigning is greatly diminished.

There is no need for tactical voting.

There is a more sophisticated link between a constituency and its representative. Not only is there more incentive to campaign and work on a more personal and local level, but also, the constituencies are likely to be more sensible reflections of where community feeling lies. For example, there is more of an attachment to the City of Leeds or the City of Manchester, than there is to, say, Leeds North East or Manchester Withington, whose boundaries have a habit of changing fairly regularly anyway.

MPs have a habit of not liking STV on the grounds that it makes them have to pay too much attention to their constituencies. Irish politicians have twice tried to scrap STV for this reason, but both times they were defeated in the referendum.
5

Caligula,

04/04/2008 10:57:28
Monteith writes: “While Thatcherism brought modernisation, individual liberation and economic progress in Scotland, we have never recognised the good it did us.”

If there’s one thing that really makes my blood boil, it’s Tory Traitors of the Michael Forsyth/Alan Cochrane school who are look warm in their condemnation of the complete folly that is nationalism because they think Scotland can be turned into some kind of right wing monetarist economic model. They envisage a low tax, enterprise orientated economy and can’t wait for Scotland to be freed from Labour domination. I also happen to know from perusing threads on this very newspaper that quite a few members of the SNP are of the same persuasion.

Well, I have news for all you Tory Turncoats/Tartan Tories within the SNP: the people of Scotland are wise to you and know where you can stick your attempt to reimpose Thatcherism on Scotland by the back door! You Nats may gather votes in your north east heartland as fast as the Tories gather votes in Surrey, but there’s no way you’re ever going to break out of this ghetto. Your win in the parliament was as a result of mid term Labour unpopularity and you’re independence agenda will be laughed out if it ever reaches a ballot paper: end of!
6

Hearts Daft,

Tynecastle 04/04/2008 11:10:21
While Thatcherism brought modernisation, individual liberation and economic progress in Scotland, we have never recognised the good it did us.

Aye right. Thatcher destroyed the industrial base of Scotland and rode roughshod over the democratic wishes of the Scottish people. That's why Brian, the Tories are now a fringe party in this country. New Labour are now heading in the same direction i.e. oblivion.
The only chance the centre right will ever have of making an impact in Scotland is if we can achieve independence. Otherwise the culture will always be the politics of dependency and grievance.
7

Hearts Daft,

Tynecastle 04/04/2008 11:16:56
5 Caligula wrote: Well, I have news for all you Tory Turncoats/Tartan Tories within the SNP: the people of Scotland are wise to you and know where you can stick your attempt to reimpose Thatcherism on Scotland by the back door!

Well this is all too clever for me. It was the SNP government, elected in May, that finally ended private sector involvement in the Scottish health service, after Scottish Labour put it there under Jack McConnell. This minority SNP administration has also abolished prescription charges, saved local A&E units, backdated the NHS pay award, abolished student fees, cut class sizes, begun a pilot for free school meals, given equal rights to the children of asylum seekers, rejected nuclear power, doubled the international aid budget, ended ring-fencing of council spending and condemned the Iraq war. This "right-wing" party seems to have done more to further social democratic values in 10 months than Labour managed in 10 years.

8

Caligula,

04/04/2008 11:17:09
#4 Wardog: you are completely clueless if you imagine that Scotland’s constitutional future could ever credibly be decided by STV. The system may be quite acceptable for elections to national parliaments, but when it comes to a major constitutional question, the preference system is completely inappropriate. For the Nats’ separation agenda to have any legitimacy, there will have to be three separate votes decisively in its favour on a straight yes or no basis. Forget the option of putting extra powers to the vote as part of a multi option poll: this is pretty well non controversial and a complete red herring.
9

Caligula,

04/04/2008 11:27:23
#7 Hearts Daft: prescription charges were already means tested, so this is a right wing bribe to those who can well afford to pay. As for abolishing student fees, this is a complete waste of resources which could more usefully be targeted towards improving the funding of the universities themselves. When I was at university, the vast majority had parents who were more than capable of paying the fees, and there was help for those whose parents’ income fell below a certain level: another bribe to the SNP’s core voters then! As for cutting class sizes, this is again the wrong priority: many teachers say that cutting the size of classes just isn’t all that helpful. As for the anti nuclear and anti Iraq war stances: just don’t get me started! The Tartan Tories are a complete waste of space: end of!
10

Hearts Daft,

Tynecastle 04/04/2008 11:41:03
*9 Caligula wrote - As for the anti nuclear and anti Iraq war stances: just don’t get me started!

Not good enough Caligula. New Labour are the party that supported a leadership that lied to the British people in order to wage an illegal war (the UN declared the war illegal)which has cost hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. As far as I'm concerned the Labour Party has blood on its hands. So don't preach about political principles.

Also who was it that admired Mgt Thatcher, Tony Blair & Gordon Brown. Who invited Mgt Thatcher to Downing St for tea and biscuits; Tony Blair & Gordon Brown. You are obviously a wee pretendie socialist who if you really believed in socialism would join the SPS or Solidarity. In short the views that you are preaching here are hypocritical Scottish Labour Pary hype designed to try and shore up the core vote which is disintegrating in front of your eyes.
11

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 04/04/2008 11:49:39
SNP snouts remain on the trough only until a referendum puts them out. That's the real reason for this delay: fear and greed. This Mugabe-like delaying tactic says a lot about Alex Two Pays real agenda.
12

Jackie Priest,

04/04/2008 11:56:12
For once I agree with a Scotsman article. Wonders never cease.

I agree entirely that the people of Scotland have to face up to the question and choose one way or another. This of course is what the SNP are attempting to do through the national conversation. And the unionist parties, to their detriment and to the detriment of Scotland, have deliberately muddied the waters with their review of devolution thing which refuses to engage the quesiton of independence v the union.

At the same time, it is entirely fair that the SNP get the chance/time to prove themselves in government and to show, as they are showing now, that they have politicians who govern better than Labour in Scotland.

So, a referendum towards the end of the SNP's current period in office makes sense if only to give people in Scotland a flavour of what a pro-independence agenda can do for Scotland and a little taste of what independence would be like.

This, surely, would go some way to answering Brian Montieth's very good question of "what would it be like if we did" become independent.

In fact, it would be nice if the media in Scotland actually pursued this question (without biases) in order to clarify the issue in ways that allow people people to weigh up the options fairly.

13

subrosa,

04/04/2008 11:57:03
# 9 states : prescription charges were already means tested, so this is a right wing bribe to those who can well afford to pay.

Nothing to do with bribes. Only approximately 10% of prescriptions are paid for and, in order to ensure the chronically and terminally ill had free prescriptions, making all prescriptions free was better financially.

So I take it you think we have no social responsibility towards our chronically and terminally ill then? If they can pay they should pay that's your idea? I don't want to live in a country like that.
14

qohldr,

04/04/2008 12:08:12
It has been interesting to note that on these treads the nationalists have insisted that the unionists are undemocratic scared by not backing a referendum.
The article about Tom Farmer calling for a referendum sooner rather than later was fully backed by them.
Unionist have continually rebuffed this argument with the believe that only the MSP's have the power to vote on whether a referendum should be held and since the majority do not back one then it should not happen.
Those MSP's who are nationalists said they would back a referendum and those who are unionists said they would not and a referendum will not be held until the majority back one.
Both sides of the argument have a good point and I would say both sides are also correct in what they say.
There seems to be a growing number of those non MSP's that support the union now saying lets have a referendum and lets have it now rather than later, backing Tom Farmers call.
It is going to be interesting to read on here just how both camps will respond.
Will unionists still insist on waiting for the majority of MSP's to be nationalist and decide or will they back a referendum ASAP.
Will nationalists continue to call for one now or will they want to delay it until 2011 as Mr Salmond has suggested.

15

John S,

04/04/2008 12:22:02
Why should there be any Scottish independence referendum before the next UK GE to be held before 3 June 2010 ? It could be better to wait and see how the SNP performs and who forms the next UK Government.

An alternative but on the same lines as STV is the electorate votes for only one choice and if no one choice has 50.01% in the first round there is a runoff between the top two.


16

pehman,

sussex 04/04/2008 12:27:35
Well it sure seems like Brian Moneith and caligula have opted to join the National conversation and are openly saying so, Just as Tom Hunter is.
17

walter,

04/04/2008 12:33:12
#10
New Labour are the party that supported a leadership that lied to the British people in order to wage an illegal war (the UN declared the war illegal)
Did they? when exactly did the UN declare the war illegal.

#13
Only approximately 10% of prescriptions are paid for and, in order to ensure the chronically and terminally ill had free prescriptions,
Pity they did not do as they said they would in their manifesto.
An SNP government will immediately abolish
prescription charges for people with chronic health conditions, people with cancer, and people
in full time education or training.
Has it been abolished 11 months down the line? No.
18

Caligula,

04/04/2008 12:39:27
#16 pehman: the “national conversation” is a complete laughing stock outside SNP circles. All anyone knows is that it consists of some website for SNP supporters to post their usual negativity and bile and bleat on about the McCrone Report (the Nats' answer to the Davinci Code!) It is a political fudge designed to convince the rank and file that the party hasn’t forgotten about its supposed raison d’etre and I ask you to withdraw your allegation that I give it any credence whatsoever.
19

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 04/04/2008 12:47:18
Caligula, your sign-off 'end of' is a turn-off

If you have reasoned debate people listen, if you have arrogance people turn away. I believe more people are listening to the nationalists because reasoning is used rather than knee-jerk reactions like yours. To repeat endlessly 'Tartan Tories' is similarly non-plussing as everyone knows it is simply an emotive moniker and nothing else. I do wish opponents of the SNP would make up their minds - one minute they are called rampant socialists, the next mini-Thatcherites.

Total lack of reasoning, and every evidence of lashing out wildly.
20

pehman,

sussex 04/04/2008 12:49:58
Caligula, 1st your the one on here spouting "bile"

2nd your on here talking about the type of Scotland you want to see -- just as people all over the Country are in their workplace at home down the pub your taking part in the National conversation.

Your moniker raises questions to your state of mind if you think your have nothing to do with it
21

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

04/04/2008 12:51:16
Brilliant piece of Devils Advocate Brian

:)

Of course you know fine well that there wont be a vote unless SNP swoop the scottish seats at the next General Election.

Which wont happen.


I'm an Onionist.
22

walter,

04/04/2008 12:51:46
What rubbish, any question on independence is exactly that a question on whether Scotland should remain in the framework of the UK or separate from the UK and become independent.
All this asking 3,4 or 5 questions or having an STV voting system is just an attempt by political parties to try swing the results in their favour.
23

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

04/04/2008 12:53:50
I'm a bit worried as I agree with everything Brian has to say today.
24

Hearts Daft,

04/04/2008 12:58:24
17 Walter - Shortly before the outbreak of hostilities, UN Secretary General stated that the use of force without Council endorsement would "not be in conformity with the Charter" and many legal experts now describe the US-UK attack as an act of aggression, violating international law.

Also as for prescription charges are you seriously claiming that chronically ill people never pay for them? If so you are mistaken my friend. Prescription charges are a tax on the sick and thank God we live in a country wherer they will soon be a thing of the past.
25

Jackie Priest,

04/04/2008 12:58:43
#18
"the “national conversation” is a complete laughing stock outside SNP circles. "

And yet there are a few unionists who appear on the Scotsman forum day in day out to participate in this conversation which is a "laughing stock outside SNP cricles" and who don't seem to be laughing at all but seem to be conversing (albeit badly and with little courtesy and very little intellectual muscle) to other people about the independence issue.

You're engaging in this conversation yourself, just like I am, and I'm not within SNP circles but an independent thinker who supports independence for a variety of reasons which do not require an undying loyalty or adherence to the SNP or any other party.

You also obviously understand very little about publicity and the ways in which political parties can operate in order to convey they ideas they're meant to represent.

The national conversation has raised the profile of the debate beyond the website they've provided for it. You are proof of this. The fact you refer to the national conversation is proof of this. Every knows by now what it is and what it's a bout. The independence issue is in our media every day and talked about in pubs constantly and everywhere else, and part of the reason this has happened is because the SNP packaged the whole thing and "marketted" it in the form of a "national conversation".

The astuteness of their approach is impressive, and very modern, and it has been immensely successful whether someone like you is laughing at it or not.

I don't hear anyone else laughing, so you're on your own, sad boy.


26

Jackie Priest,

04/04/2008 13:00:44
#21

It's not brilliant. It's totally see-through.

But it's useful nevertheless, and I appreciate that.
27

Alan B,

04/04/2008 13:08:12
#22 Walter

STV for a referendum was first raised by the lib dems during the election last yr. The snp's first choice is to have a simple question. However the unionist parties are trying to block letting the people decide in such a way.

Labour and the tories having rejected more powers less that a yr ago, having lost the election are now seemingly wanting more powers. However labour are badly split on the issue. The last 3 labour scottish leaders all wanted more power for the sp.

The question is waht is the way forward. With the unionist having their commision we need to see what they bring forward so that the options are available for the people to choose from.

Bizzarely the unionist parties seemed to rule out a referendum on their own consistutional changes. Undemocratic if they try to remove powers granted via a referendum. We also have to see if they can actually agree. The lib dems are the only party that has been consistent.

Add into the mix that brown will probably lose the next election, then the tories will make changes to the constitutional arrangements anyway. Stopping scottish mps voting on english matters. The correct thing to do but if the evidence given to their review is anything go by will be made alot easier with fiscal autonomy.

Labour will alos be in a mess of having said that the tories are being anti scottish by wanting this policy but then will have to campaign for scotland to remain in the union while it has stated the new government is anti scottish.

While i agree with u stv is not idea, how do u put 3 options to the people.

Personally i would like us to adopt dev max asap. And then we can have referendum if the snp win the next election.

28

Alan B,

04/04/2008 13:09:36
#Caligula what planet are u on. Vote unionism vote economic failure, vote poverty.
29

walter,

04/04/2008 13:15:25
#24
Hearts Daft
You stated the UN had declared the war illegal, the UN or any other body that has the authority to declare the war illegal has done so.
It does not matter what individuals or groups say, the war on Iraq has never been officially declared illegal.

I am not claiming that chronically ill people do not pay prescription charges they definitely do pay them.
It is unfortunate for them that they pay them and will continue to pay them until these charges are phased out when they were promised that these charges would be immediately abolished if the SNP became the government.

30

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 04/04/2008 13:15:49
Lets have one now, a simple question.

Do you agree that Scotland should seperate itself from the rest of the United Kingdom and become an Independent country?

Yes or No.

Simple to the point and gets the job done.

31

Alan B,

04/04/2008 13:21:03
#30 if as opinion polls suggest, substantially more powers for the sp is the majority option, are u just saying that should be ignored
32

John S,

04/04/2008 13:25:57
#27 Alan B - How do you put 3 options to the people maybe with a runoff between the top two as I mentioned in my post #15 unless one choice receive 50.01% of the vote in the first round ?
The problem with substantially more powers for the SP is unless they are defined they could mean anything and not precise enough for a referendum unless there is another referendum to confirm these substantially more powers.
33

Merouane,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 13:33:14
#33. They 'devolution max' choice would have to be well defined prior to any referendum. People would know what they're voting for.

I think it's a bit cheeky of Brian to accuse the SNP of running away from a referendum. If there was a majority in Parliament for a referendum he might have a point, but he knows fine well that the Unionists in Parliament would vote against it at the moment. I also expect them to do so in 2010.

Brian: "If it's to be an independent Scotland then fine, but let's hear what it will be like".

I'm sorry Brian, but what a ridiculous argument. What will the UK be like if we stay in it? Who knows? Post independence we'll have regular elections and the people of Scotland will decide what an independence Scotland will be like. That will be open to change based on the shifting desire of the electorate. That's the whole point. Within the Union, the say of the Scottish electorate in what sort of country Scotland is, is marginalised.
34

walter,

04/04/2008 13:34:50
#27 Alan B
To me the way for the referendum is simple.
You don't give 3 or more choices you ask 2 questions.
These questions could be answered by holding two referendums but they could also be answered by asking both in one.
Question 1 is straight forward, remain in the UK or become independent.
Question 2 would be a different matter as the choices of devolved power would be asked in this question, more power the status quo or less power for the SP.
Question 2 would only come into effect if the results of question 1 was to remain in the union.
It would become null and void if the results of question 1 were for independence.
If that was the case then I would expect all MSPs as well as all Scottish MPs to participate at some level in negotiations for the process to follow.
35

Wardog,

Buckie 04/04/2008 13:36:07
8 Caligula, 04/04/2008 11:17:09

Are you afraid of democracy Caligula? ;)

The middle option of more powers really scares you doesn't it..... F I S C A L - I N D E P E N D E N C E

Your rattled pal, you just can't accept that the vast majority of people want to see more powers at the parliament....



36

Alfred E. Neuman,

04/04/2008 13:44:17
Blah blah blah, Oil, blah blah blah, scared, blah blah blah, 1707, blah blah blah, democractic rights, blah blah blah, parliamentry process is rubbish, blah blah blah, traitor, blah blah blah, the people's imagined will, blah blah blah.

Blah blah blah, McConnell, blah blah blah, butcher's apron, blah blah blah optimism, blah blah blah, Sweden, blah blah blah Norway, blah blah blah.
37

Jackie Priest,

04/04/2008 13:57:04
#30

But your wording is wrong. It should read:

Do you agree that Scotland should become an Independent country?

That's even straighter to the point, so I expect you'll agree it's better.



38

Alan B,

04/04/2008 13:58:07
#33 John S "How do you put 3 options to the people maybe with a runoff between the top two as I mentioned in my post #15 unless one choice receive 50.01% of the vote in the first round ?"

i understand where u are coming from i, i was challenging poster #30 that seemed to ignore the more power option that seems currently to be the most popular.

The 2 problems i could see with ur type of referendum are:
1) 2 separate referendum could lead to a low turnout the 2nd time round.
2)if say the result was
37% independence
30% more powers
33% status quo
for the first round. The more power option would drop out. the 30% would then have to choose between 2 options remaining options. if they switch to the status quo in the 2nd vote then the status quo wins. However if people had a simple choice between the status quo and more powers the result would have been 77% for more powers.
39

Alan B,

04/04/2008 14:08:17
#35 Walter

Ur solution of 2 questions (in either one or 2 referendum) is a not a bad one.

My own choice would be quite close to that. I would go for the more power option first. That can be either be via a referendum or a direct transfer of powers if the unionist parties come to some argeement. I can see the democratic point of view of having a referendum and the legitimacy it therefore offers. However i do not think it will be radical and propose fiscal autonomy. so u may end up with a referendum about stuff that is important but not particulary definitive.

The 2nd referendum could be held in the second parliament if the snp are again the largest party.
40

John S,

04/04/2008 14:14:45
#40 Alan B - Sorry I butted in between you and #30.
41

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

04/04/2008 14:15:20
I think JOhnston press long ago cottoned onto the fact that articles containing the word "independence" will get a bit hit factor. Not sure if they are as cynical as I , but hey they're journalists.
42

Alan B,

04/04/2008 14:22:17
#42 John S

Do u think there could be a problem with the type of referendum u proposed based on:

if say the result was
37% independence
30% more powers
33% status quo
for the first round. The more power option would drop out. the 30% would then have to choose between 2 options remaining options. if they switch to the status quo in the 2nd vote then the status quo wins. However if people had a simple choice between the status quo and more powers the result would have been 77% for more powers.

Or is it just the best option with none perfect.

43

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

04/04/2008 14:25:03
44. Civil war is ultimately the easiest and fairest way.
44

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 14:38:53
There will be a referendum on Independence when the Government has had ample time to persuade the majority of the benefits of Independence and not before. 2010 should suffice.
45

Alan B,

04/04/2008 14:44:52
#45 nah. salmond and brown in a sumo ring.
46

Alan B,

04/04/2008 14:46:45
Doubt it will happen in 2010 that is when brown will have a general election. They will wait until he has been gubbed.
47

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/04/2008 14:46:54
#11 Rules

Have you any idea how foolish you sound?
48

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/04/2008 14:55:54
#30 It may seem like a simple question, but it would need to be worded in a far less biased way than you are proposing. The question has to be neutral that's why the polling organisations specialise in doing this properly.
49

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 04/04/2008 14:58:37
#37 Alfred

Thanks for your valuable contribution to the debate.
50

Merouane,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 15:08:10
#38. I kind of know what you mean, but I don't think it's something to really get bogged down in. At the end of the day, the SNP have a policy of increasing economic growth while adhering to a general background of social fairness, but overall, they are about providing stability and competent government, because they know that's what a lot of people will need in order to make the jump towards supporting independence.

The same will continue in the first few terms of an independent Parliament. We're not going to see radical change overnight. We will have plenty time for a new political structure to appear before we can decide through elections (elections that are not warped by a significant % of the electorate voting on basis of a desire for constitutional change).

As I said before, we don't really choose our political path now, because we are such a minority within the UK. Devolution has resolved that to an extent, but not enough IMO. And even now, we I feel slightly disenfranchised because I vote in no small way for independence rather than based on my political ideology (I am not a nationalist per se). Independence will resolve these issues to a great extent.
51

kimba,

04/04/2008 15:37:28
For all you nats I have a tip for tomorrows Grand National,it's the aptly named IDLE TALK!
52

Merouane,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 15:48:45
#54. And how about Slim Pickings for the Unionists :-)
53

kimba,

04/04/2008 15:58:25
55. Cool,as the national pin sticker guide says "ignore at your peril"
54

Jock 107,

04/04/2008 16:10:37
48 Alan B
Nah. Wendy and Rosanna in a mud pit.
Phwoarr
55

Merouane,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 16:18:27
#56. Indeed. Although there are some who I am sure can be ignored without any peril!
56

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 16:30:34
Independence is normality. If the unionist commission comes up with no significant new powers the SNP will be justified in calling a straightforward independence versus status quo vote.

If it is three options the voting system has to be able to cope with that and STV is the only sensible way to do it.

The SNP have consistently called for a referendum. Now people like Monteith want one just because they think their position might win which tells us why the leaderships of the unionist parties are agin it, they know they might lose!

Recent polls have absurdly underestimated support for independence. Any actual poll will be a re-run of the election with the SNP's positive case against the usual scaremongering from the unionists about how disaster will be round the corner without the indulgence of the beloved English tax payers who are stealing our oil money but are still nonetheless (really, yes really! if you believe the English tabloid press that is) treating us like kings.

This didn't work at the last election and won't work now. Independence is coming. Scots should rule Scotland and no unionist will ever devise a good reason why we shouldn't.
57

kimba,

04/04/2008 16:44:51
58. That was nearly funny,but not quite!
58

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 16:47:09
Caligula has listened to the great Wendy who told him the SNP are Tartan Tories so of course it must be true. Getting rid of tuition fees to make education more affordable isn't left wing, it's right wing!

Putting a charge on education was incredibly socialist. Don't understand it? Don't worry neither does he.

Also he apparently hates "Tory Traitors of the Michael Forsyth/Alan Cochrane school who are look warm in their condemnation of the complete folly that is nationalism", actually both Forsyth and Cochrane are rabid unionists. (Which makes me think this is a wind up.)

If you are worried that the Scottish people might vote for a right of centre Government after independence Caligula then you are not a democrat.

The Scottish people must decide their future destiny. The SNP are a left wing social democratic party and Labour are no longer socialists. Wendy can waffle any old cr*p she likes but it won't change that simple fact.

Who supports Trident? Who supports ID cards? Who supports an imperialist attitude to world affairs?

Who supports a local income tax which would reduce the tax burden for the low paid?

I suggest a future independent Scotland will be a lot more left wing than any future UK Labour or Tory Government. However, at the end of the day it's up to us, just as it should be.
59

Caligula,

04/04/2008 16:56:40
#61 Joe M: if you Nats refuse to means test then you’re benefiting those who can well afford to pay (ie your core vote). This goes for tuition fees as much as for prescription charges and it’s just sad if that’s your idea of being left wing. Forsyth once said that, if it came right down to it, he’d prefer independence to devolution (this was when the Tories were still in power). It’s also well known that there’s a right wing faction who want to use an independent Scotland as a testing ground. The anti Trident policy is one of the last vestiges of left wing policy the SNP have left and is quite frankly downright ridiculous, as is the anti nuclear stance. The low paid don’t exactly live in huge mansions which attract high council tax, so I don’t know how you’ve convinced yourself that LIT will help them.
60

Miss Jean Brodie,

04/04/2008 17:25:07
There is something odd and mentally unhealthy in anyone who does not wish to give a partner or neighbour the opportunity nor freedom to decide how they wish to live and govern their own life.

If someone asked me if Scotland should become independent I would vote yes - and I do not subscribe to any of the majority vote political parties.
61

westview,

under the sun 04/04/2008 17:48:17
If there are any socialists in the Scottish branch of the Labour party ,you know that your only hope of keeping the even a wee red flag flying here ,is to break away from the right wing policies of the Labour party in England. It is far right south of the border because the English have a huge right wing core vote. Go for Independence for Scots Labour so that you can hold on to your principals and avoid the self confessed expenses fiddlers that are imposed on you to keep control in Westminster hands.
62

me150,

04/04/2008 18:25:52
Yes why not allow a party to rule exclusively after it was voted in as a minority government only because of the Iraq war objection vote.
63

Andrew Allan,

04/04/2008 18:32:05
If early mean that a referendum and vote would be concluded just prior to the next Scottish election for places at Holyrood, then I think this is the most sensible way to go forward.
64

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 04/04/2008 18:34:41
NEWS JUST IN....
TONY BLAIR CLAIMED ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTEEN QUID FOR TV LICENSE
GORDON BROWN CLAIMED TWO THOUSAND FOR A CLEANER
JOHN PRESCOT CLAIMED FOUR GRAND FOR FOOD
SNOUTS IN TROUGH ANYBODY?
65

Andrew Allan,

04/04/2008 18:42:45
You would of thought with all that money for a cleaner Mr Brown would have been able to clean off that yellow streak.
66

walter,

04/04/2008 19:24:07
Salmond has claimed £130,364.33 in expenses alone as a MP, nearly £14000 of that is for a flat he has used 6 times in the last 11 months, he would have been cheaper staying at one of the top London hotels.
It will be interesting to find out just how much he has claimed for expenses altogether , MSP, FM and MP.
People may wish to decry politicians of other parties for their expenses but Salmond is no different.
67

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 04/04/2008 19:46:46
Independence for Scotland is neither wanted or likely . But were it to occur do you seriously believe , no seriously believe , seriously , that a Scots Pariament would make one iota of difference for the better for Scotland ?
68

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 04/04/2008 20:08:31
JOE M .59 . I suspect a referendum on Scottish independence would be meaningless . I further suspect only a clear SNP victory at a general election would be the minimum required for Westminster to consider the issue . Amongst other of your bold assertions was that independence is coming . The evidence thus far suggests otherwise .
69

AndrewS,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 20:14:41
Scotland controlling itself it the most desireable situation. That way we can avoid the stupid decisions of English based Westminster. We can also decide for ourselves if we really want to deal with a arrogant,bully such as Trump who is trying to corrupt our system by trying to pass of a housing development as a tourist attraction.
70

pehman,

sussex 04/04/2008 20:23:21
Vuerzburg,

Are you seriously no really seriously saying England should not have a parliment also ?

I can't think of any country in the world even n korea that doesn't have a parliment, except England
71

dodderer,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 20:29:36
#70 YES it would
72

dodderer,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 20:31:59
England does already have a parliament. 90% of all business carried out in Westminster is on behalf of England.
73

Wuerzburg,

Germany 04/04/2008 20:47:49
ANDREW S 72. Desired by whom ? Presumably you´d miss out on sensible decisions . PEHMAN 73 . No I don´t think England should have its own parliament . I think a British parliament is sufficient . I cannot understand why a pragmatic people like the Scots would vote for another bunch of self serving politician when they voted , just , for a Scots parliament . DODDERER 75 . Not through my choice it don´t no how .
74

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 04/04/2008 20:49:19
DODDERER 74 . How?
75

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 04/04/2008 21:35:46
11 Rules

Labour are much more like Mugabe than any other party:

1. In power for too long
2. Much alleged corruption
3. In denial about losing power
76

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 04/04/2008 21:52:59
5, 8, 9 Caligula

Reading your posts is like watching an extra-depressing episode of Eastenders.

Your arguments are shallow, negative, and lacking consistency. Except for the fact that you don't agree with anything at all.

I mean: "When I was at university, the vast majority had parents who were more than capable of paying the fees.."

Was that Oxbridge?

And: "As for cutting class sizes, this is again the wrong priority: many teachers say that cutting the size of classes just isn’t all that helpful."

Spoken to any teachers running composite classes lately?

And: "You Nats may gather votes in your north east heartland as fast as the Tories gather votes in Surrey, but there’s no way you’re ever going to break out of this ghetto."

Inaccurate facts about the North East, and what's this about a 'ghetto'? This suggests a downtrodden part of the main conurbation (England) where there's no hope for any of us. Are you happy with your lot? 'Cos I'm not.

Bring on a referendum, now or in the future. "END OF".






77

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 04/04/2008 22:03:39
ANDREW BOD 79 . Why aren´t you happy with your lot ? I know Aberdeenshire fairly well and think of it as a wonderful place . I´m surprised to see it described as the heartland of nationalism because in my frequent visits I´ve found little but friendliness , helpfulness and sober conversation , markedly different from the inane bile often found on these pages .
78

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 04/04/2008 22:29:03
Try to imagine a country consisting of the following states:

California (pop. 37 million)
Iowa (pop. 3 million)
West Virginia (pop. 2 million)
Rhode Island (pop 1 million)

Now let's make the country's capital Los Angeles, and put both houses of reps in Los Angeles. Let's also put the government and the civil service in LA.

Now let's also have a parliament with limited powers, in Iowa, just for Iowa. Let's also have even more limited Assemblies in West Virginia and Rhode Island. But let's not put a parliament in California for California. And let's get all of the other wee states to vote on issues that affect California as well as issues which are reserved for the whole country in the country's/California's parliament. By the way, Iowa and Rhode Island can also have it's own separate legal and educational system. And the states can be split up to compete in certain world sporting events but not others.

Let's also propose regional assemblies or elected mayors in San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego to balance the powers 'handed out' to the wee states, and by the way, all of this needs to have the Royal approval of the Queen of the country because it's a constitutional monarchy.

WHAT A CONSTITUTIONAL MESS. THIS IS OUR UNION OF THE UK. LET'S START SORTING THIS MESS OUT PREFERABLY THROUGH INDEPENDENCE, BUT AT THE VERY LEAST THROUGH A FEDERAL SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT.
79

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 04/04/2008 22:35:43
Wuerzburg, Germany.

It has a strong nationalist base, but is certainly not the 'heartland of nationalism'. And that is precisely the point I was making.

I am a bit troubled by the implication you make that friendliness and the desire to be independently governed cannot go hand in hand. You seem to have formed an inaccurate stereotype.
80

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 04/04/2008 23:14:10
ANDREW BOD 82 . You are certainly being economical when you refer to my comment vis friendliness . If your read my piece to its conclusion you might see that in comparing my experiences in Aberdeenshire with many of those contributions on these pages I am able to conclude that there is little enthusiasm for separation . My piece did not suggest the incompatability of friendliness and independence . But you have not explained your unhappiness with your lot .
81

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 05/04/2008 09:18:50
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