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Pram-pushing mums need bus perspective

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Published Date: 29 July 2008
IF there are two groups who shouldn't really be made to battle publicly for resources, it's mothers with young children and wheelchair users. I would not wish to be a member of either group when it comes to getting around. Edinburgh can be a cruel, cobbled place for people on non-motorised wheels. In picking sides you are bound to come across as someone who likes to torture kittens. After all, who would deny either poor wee mummies or disabled people anything?
Lothian Buses has succeeded in setting the two groups against each other by enforcing the allocation of the wheelchair space on their buses – to wheelchairs. And while one can sympathise with mothers who wish to take younger children on buses, with p
rams, their position is in no way comparable to those who use wheelchairs.

While no friend of bureaucracy, it seems clear that Lothian Buses decision is driven by legislation. They don't have a choice. The somewhat more nuanced position of First In Scotland East is largely the same; offering to accommodate prams where possible.

If something is indeed "The Law" then no amount of holding up your baby for the camera is going to change this. More importantly, if you don't like it, you know where the ballot box is. My suspicion is any such campaign would peter out as soon as the campaigners' children no longer needed prams or buggies.

One can't help but criticise the ridiculous notion that one should be able to take a full-size pram on a bus. As if buggies weren't big enough on their own – which particular battlefield exercise are some of those cross-country wheels meant to be for? – how could anyone think that taking a four-wheel, non-collapsible vehicle on to public transport is an OK thing to do? It's bad enough trying to get past someone in an overly-puffy anorak.

To would-be bus prammers and those who dress like Michelin men, please remember this is PUBLIC transport – ie a degree of social consideration on everyone's part is necessary for it to work. No-one should be getting on a bus with a full-on pram even if the bus is towing a luxury trailer exclusively for wheelchair users.

Even if this wasn't a matter of law, there is a simple difference between pram-users and wheelchair-users; pram-users have all chosen to be in the situation they are in. Wheelchair users have not.

Of course, the best solution would be one that did not involve legislation, but was based instead on respect for others and recognition of relative status. There would be no problem if society worked in a way such that mums with prams – an entirely non-disabled pairing – could be relied on to voluntarily get off the bus when a wheelchair user needed to get on.

In such a way I would imagine that 90 per cent of bus journeys would hold no problem for either pram or wheelchair. It would also help communicate to their children the importance of good manners, or are such mothers so conceited that they believe their predicament is equal to those who have been put in a wheelchair through no fault of their own?

New mums wondering how celebrities manage to get their flat tummies back so soon after giving birth might consider that the pavement offers more solutions than the bus in that department.

Ground the idiots
DID you read about those two idiots who tried to open the plane door on the way back from the sunny Greek island of Kos? Had these two been trying to open it in the name of al-Qaida then we would already be suffering the consequences in terms of heightened security, but as it was only apparently drink-fuelled stupidity then its a case of As You Were.

Yet it shouldn't be for those two buffoons. Such people should not be allowed to travel outside the UK, full stop. Endangering a flight should result in mandatory loss of passport privileges – and confiscation of their duty-free.

A bronze medal for IQ
CONGRATULATIONS to Scottish Athletics for drawing up a usage guide for athletes training with iPods.

It's nice to confirm that our athletes are so dumb they haven't even got basic common sense. Do they not know that being unaware of what's going on in an area where javelins might be flying around isn't a great idea?

Maybe Scottish Athletics could paint arrows on the track next, so our runners know which way to go.





The full article contains 765 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 29 July 2008 9:20 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Brian Hennigan
 
1

Gastric Antral Vascular Ectasia,

29/07/2008 12:32:25
"While no friend of bureaucracy, it seems clear that Lothian Buses decision is driven by legislation."

Brian, can you say "misplaced participle"?
2

Linmal,

Livingston 29/07/2008 12:34:20
Completely agree with you on the pram -v- wheelchair "debate". When I had my children I had a pram and a pushchair. The latter was collapsible and I took that when I wanted to use the bus. When I was going on shorter journeys ie local shops, I used the pram.

I also agree that people tend nowadays to only think of number 1. I never had any problems travelling when pregnant, there was always someone who would offer his or her seat. Could the problem today be one of attitude? I never thought of this privilege as being my right, is this where today's mums and mums to be are going wrong? I think this could well be the case. Think about it - a little bit of common courtesy can go an awful long way.
3

Beergut,

Embra 29/07/2008 12:36:11
What about those nice supermarket spaces close to the entrance while elderly shoppers have to hirple across from the far end of the car park?
4

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 29/07/2008 12:56:44

Other things they're goung to ban on the bus:

"Geek Pie" haircuts.

Swamptrash

The Clifton Suspension Bridge

Bernie Clifton

Bernie Winters and Schnorbitz
5

CarolineB,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 13:23:18
1. Who said we are in battle of resources? As quoted in yesterdays article I am happy to vacate the space should a wheelchair user board.

2. What law are you referring to? I believe this is a misinterpretation of current legislation – have you read the wording? The principle being applied is that buggies can be used because in theory they can be folded – hence putting the baby or child or your knee. My point is my baby cannot sit unaided – cannot even support its own head. This means that I would have to hold the baby – what would happen should the bus stop suddenly? Well I could be propelled forward and injure my baby. You would do it in a car – why is it Ok on a bus?


3. The rule is being applied differently with First and Lothian – Lothian do not allow prams full stop – “First” accommodate prams when possible. I am only asking to be accommodated where possible.

4. I love the argument that Mums should walk everywhere! I do walk quite a lot with my baby. In theory I could walk everywhere if the weather was always OK and I didn’t need or want to go any more than a mile or so from my home!


5. Finally I am sure that hardly any celeb Mums would need to rely on public transport. I am sure that most of them drive or perhaps they are even driven . . .
6

Linmal,

Livingston 29/07/2008 13:57:27
#5 No-one is suggesting that you walk when the weather is bad, just take a more sensible form of transport for your baby, ie a pushchair that folds down and don't take offence if you can't get on the bus if some other mother has already decided to do the same as you. If people used fold down pushcairs more mothers and babies could get on the bus. Common sense really!

As for wheelchair users, not many actually do use the buses but I am sure that most passengers would be considerate towards them if they did.
7

mumtobrats,

29/07/2008 14:04:50
Linmal

"New mums wondering how celebrities manage to get their flat tummies back so soon after giving birth might consider that the pavement offers more solutions than the bus in that department" - this is where it was suggested that people should walk if the weather is bad, let's be honest, more often than not, the weather will be bad in Scotland!

I'm not sure how many times it has to be pointed out to you that a newborn baby CANNOT go in a fold down buggy unless it is fully relinced, this is something that Lothian Buses will no longer allow.

Common sense really!
8

James (1),

29/07/2008 14:13:55
#1 can you look in the mirror and say " I am a tube! I have just made a fool of myself on an open forum."
9

James (1),

29/07/2008 14:20:08
#5 Why did you buy a pram if you are not prepared to walk with it? Status symbol? Ms Jones has one so I need one?

One more example of mothers inflicting their needs onto the general public. "Move aside I have a child!" types.
Some unfortunate person cannot get out of a wheelchair and these women have the brass neck to compare their plight with being disabled.
10

mumtobrats,

29/07/2008 14:24:30
no 9 - I think your being a bit hysterical.

Caroline B does not have a pram, she has a foldable travel system.

Parents are TOLD to buy lie flat prams for newborn babies. Incase you were not aware, babies cannot sit up in buggies.

I'm more than prepared to walk with my pram, just not from Musselburgh to Edinburgh. And I fail to see why my three year old should have to to be faced with a walk like that on a daily basis because he has a younger sibling.
11

florence f,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 14:29:31
" a newborn baby CANNOT go in a fold down buggy unless it is fully relinced, this is something that Lothian Buses will no longer allow."

My children are 21, 19 and 17, and when they were small I'd use the pram locally and a folding buggy on the buses. The difference was that when I got on the bus I collapsed the buggy to umbrella-size and held the baby on my lap. This was a buggy that could be wheeled along completely reclined and safe for a small baby; it was easy to click upright at the bus-stop. There was no question of taking uncollapsed buggies on the bus then as they were all double-deckers with the high step, so the question just didn't arise. Not good for wheelchair users, admittedly. This business of it not being safe to hold a baby on your knee - how many instances have there been of babies getting hurt this way? And surely if you're that worried all it takes is to carry a sling with you and put the baby in it while you're on the bus? Parents have managed with this sort of thing for a very long time. Buses with access for uncollapsed buggies, let alone prams, are a very recent innovation and I don't recall being confined to the area I could walk to when my children were small. Compromise, ladies.
12

CarolineB,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 14:33:39
James - perhaps it would help if you actaully read the comments then think about what is actually being said before responding.
13

mumtobrats,

29/07/2008 14:39:07
no. 11

What may have happened 15+ years ago is quite irrelevant, if you would cast your mind back you would also remember that wheelchair access was also not given, because that's what used to happen does that make it acceptable? NO.

The fact is that it is not safe in any way shape or form to carry a baby on your knee, the safest place for them to be is secured in a pram.

I see no compromise in what you are suggesting, the compromise is to fold our buggy or move our pram should the space be needed for a wheelchair, which every mother here is prepared to do.
14

florence f,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 14:59:25
12 - Oh, of course. The only way to do things is as they have been done for the last 6 months. The way things were done in the past is always, always wrong, no matter how many children survived their incredibly stupid and negligent parents back then. Silly me. How could I not understand that if you're over 35 you know nothing about anything?
15

mumtobrats,

29/07/2008 15:02:12
no. 14.

Why be so sensitive? Are you saying it's safe to carry a newborn baby on your lap on a vehicle with no seatbelts? Can you show me some evidence please?
16

florence f,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 15:05:31
"The fact is that it is not safe in any way shape or form to carry a baby on your knee, the safest place for them to be is secured in a pram."

And what happens to that pram if the bus crashes? Is it secured in any way to the body of the vehicle? Back in the mists of the past, ooh, about 30 years ago, many people sincerely believed that seatbelts were unsafe because it was supposed to be a good thing to be 'thrown clear' in the event of a car crash. Naturally they were wrong, but wouldn't that be exactly what would happen to a pram? The fact is there is no way to make life 100% safe. It's always a case of balancing what's possible against what's desirable, and sometimes, as in the case of city buses, which, let's be honest, are a pretty slow and safe form of transport compared with cars, it may not be possible for the absolute safest option to be provided for everyone, 100% of the time, as well as allowing the maximum access to the maximum number of people and without anyone being disadvantaged.
17

florence f,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 15:06:38
A vehicle with no seatbelts is a slightly different matter from a city bus. Nobody would carry a baby on their knee in a car that way nowadays, and as a matter of fact nobody did that 25 years ago either. Sitting in a seat in a city bus is not the same thing.
18

mumtobrats,

29/07/2008 15:12:20
no. 16. If people believed 30 years ago that it was safer to not have seatbelts, then yes they were wrong.

There is no way to make anything 100% safe but surely increased odds make it safer than before? If a crash should happen, it IS better that a baby is secured in a buggy or pram, otherwise you have a small missile on your hands.

No one is disadvantaged if a pram or buggy is on a bus, as long as they make way for a wheelchair, which most people do.

I'm sorry but your argument is totally non-sensical.

I also have to point out that 25 years ago (even less) babies most certainly were carried on laps in cars.
19

MummyWease,

29/07/2008 15:25:59
Yeah these fold up umbrella buggies which became a fad in the 1970's are probably what caused all my current back problems hence why I bought a proper carrycot pram to try and ensure my children don't end up suffering the way I do. Most of these buggies aren't recommended until babies are 6 months old either, so what should the mums of babies under 6 months do? Oh yeah use their so called 4x4's and clog up an already stressful city's traffic. Oh to be in the old days!
20

Linmal,

Livingston 29/07/2008 16:13:51
To all of you - you choose to have children - as I did. So why do you expect to have preferential treatment? I sat with my baby on my knee on the bus and a toddler at my side they grew up fine and I now have three grandchildren. My children were none the worse for this treatment. Its the same old story these days, trying to wrap kids up in cotton wool. We all just had to manage as best we could, it wasn't always easy but that was life and there is nothing perfect in this life, lets face it. Buses are, on the whole, an extremely safe form of transport with few accidents, particularly on city buses as they tend not to go too fast anyway.

What I was promoting was consideration for others and common sense. I don't think it would harm a child unduly to be held in its mother's arms for a ten minute bus journey (maybe longer but not much). Apart from anything else its not just the pram its the luggage that seems to accompany it - enought to kit out a small army that is a lot of the problem - and travelling at peak times doesn't make a lot of sense as the bus is full of passengers wanting to get home and not wanting to be encumbered by trying to climb over prams and their accessories.
21

mumtobrats,

29/07/2008 16:19:50
Who is asking for preferential treatment? We are asking for the same treatment everyone else gets, for our children to be allowed to travel safely.

As for not travelling at peak times, what should working mothers do? Give up work to avoid bus travel? I think not.
22

James (1),

29/07/2008 16:53:18
#5+12 I have read the comments, some of which are pure fiction. For example a wheelchair user getting on a bus that you are already on and you are going to vacate the area? Oh really. Yes if it were an empty bus perhaps but where are you going to magic your buggy away if the bus is busy? Response- “ Well I would have go off (yeah right!)
Real response:- “Where am I meant to go? Everyone cram up and make room for my buggy please. I have a baby you know?”
Stop kidding yourself. Regarding walking, yes you could walk but you want to take your buggy so life is easier FOR YOU! Why not just stop taking a buggy on the bus? Get daddy to look after baby? No, it would be better for all mothers if we just drive past the disabled. This article is not about YOU it is about people like you who are not willing to accommodate disabled and see it as doing them a favour.
That is why you need to be TOLD what to do.
23

florence f,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 19:13:11
18 - funnily enough, what time and experience of life teaches you is that children are a lot more resilient than you think when they are new babies, that there is more than one way of doing things and that, thankfully, it all lasts a very short time, in the great scheme of things, in any case. Since I don't see too many young adults who have been harmed by whatever design of pram or buggy their parents chose for them back then, and I very rarely hear of city buses crashing and certainly not of babies, or anyone else, for that matter, as projectiles because the city doesn't see fit to provide seatbelts for anyone on their buses, I conclude it's really not a matter of safety, but of doing as you would be done by. If mothers of babies are really and truly willing to get off the bus to accommodate wheelchair users, then there isn't a problem. But all I can say is that it would take a saintlier person than I am to believe that would be the case every time the situation arose, and I wouldn't like to be the bus driver who would have to tell people to get off, given how some people behave in public.
24

sick of edinburgh,

30/07/2008 07:34:02
#19 MummyWease made my day. I laughed so hard I hurt my back
25

sick of edinburgh,

30/07/2008 08:53:43
Consumer choice and having the chav attitude of who has the best pram. These new parents should go complain to the manufacturers of their state of the art prams and ask them to design an extremely expensive pram that will collapse to travel with ease on a Lothian Bus, oh and a safety harness for bus travel which will stop their child being injured in the common occurrance of bus crashes, which also allows them to lie flat in case they get back trouble. It is still possible to buy collapsable prams that are suitable for babies from birth and it is also still possible to buy baby slings. If parents decide to buy non collapsing prams then they cannot expect to board public transport with ease. Lothian buses should not have given this relatively new option to take non collapsing prams onto buses in the first place, they would have saved themselves a headache.
26

Linmal,

Livingston 30/07/2008 10:05:31
#21 Working mothers should consider others as others should consider them. Fold your buggy up and give room to others. I didn't go to work full time until my children were at school and therefore had no need to drag them on and off buses twice a day. I do appreciate that this isn't always possible nowadays but if you do use the bus you should treat others as you would like to be treated and cause as little disruption as possible. I presume that you do behave in this way. Many people, however, do not and the last thing people want on their journey home is a lot of screaming kids wreaking havoc on the bus. So many people do not seem able to control their children nowadays and don't think I am some old fogey, my grandchildren are school age but my daughter does keep them under control in public.
27

Speedy Gonzales,

Edinburgh 30/07/2008 12:13:42
#26 seen and not heard eh?
Sounds to me that if you applied your wishes to all bus users, you might be the only one on that bus.
No smelly auld folk reeking of pi$h due to incontinence(that applies to change of life wummin' too if they don't use they femi-pad thingys)
No teens with their lug holes hard wired to their p-pods.
No drunks and no football fans after matches, no-one else wants to hear about the questionable parentage of the man in black?!?
Nobody that comes on reekin' o' fags, after smoking half a pack end to end before the bus came(god only knows when they might get their next cig after boarding this non-smoking vessel that contains so many loons, ma nerves are pure janglin' at the thought!)
etc, etc,
Seriously though,
I could have sworn the scottish exec are running tv and radio ads cautioning the public not to judge on age, wonder when that message will sink in!
28

Linmal,

Livingston 31/07/2008 13:48:52
#27

I'm not judging anyone on age or anything else, merely advocating that if you treat people in a considerate way, ie as you yourself would like to be treated, then the chances are you will be treated the same. Unfortunately it seems we live in a very selfish society (Margaret Thatcher said there was no such thing as society but I never agreed with her on that one or much else really). CONSIDERATION FOR OTHERS - we were taught that at school but I think this one has slipped through the net nowadays. I went to Broughton (when it was in McDonald Road and a Senior Secondary School). The Lady Adviser, Miss Todd, always drummed it into us that whether in or out of uniform, you must show respect for others and when in uniform it was inexcusable as it gave the school a bad name. This should be carried on right through life but sadly, it isn't and I am ashamed to say some of the worst culprits are over 50!

 

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