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Scottish airgun ban blocked by Whitehall



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Published Date:
23 December 2007
PLANS to take control of firearms law and impose an airgun ban north of the border have been blocked by UK ministers, Scotland on Sunday can reveal.
Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, in a letter leaked to Scotland on Sunday, has told SNP ministers she will not hand over gun laws, slapping down the change as "confusing and potentially damaging".

Last night, the decision caused a huge cross-border row, with the SNP accusing the Labour-led UK Government of ignoring serious crime in Scotland and "frustrating" further moves towards devolution. Police and anti-gun campaigners also condemned Smith's refusal to hand over firearms law.

Scotland on Sunday revealed in July that the UK justice secretary Jack Straw had met First Minister Alex Salmond to discuss the issue. Straw is said to have agreed to "give careful consideration" to Scotland-only reform.

Although the SNP has never categorically stated it will ban airguns, it believes decisive action is needed north of the border to address high levels of gun crime. Three Scots have been killed and 1,154 injured over the past eight years by airgun pellets.

The airgun killing of two-year-old Andrew Morton, from Easterhouse, Glasgow, in 2005 resulted in the boy's father handing over a petition signed by 11,000 people to MSPs backing an outright ban on the sale and use of almost all airguns.

SNP ministers have been discussing devolving all firearms laws permanently to Edinburgh but have also said they would settle for a one-off deal in which Westminster would allow Holyrood to legislate just on air weapons.

But in her letter to Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill, Smith states: "I do not believe it would be sensible to devolve responsibility in the way you suggest."

She adds: "I think it would be confusing and potentially damaging to create a situation in which the entire body of firearms law in Scotland could ultimately differ markedly from that in England and Wales.

"There is no impediment to cross-border movement and it would be very difficult to enforce separate regimes and to prevent organised criminals from exploiting any differences."

UK ministers are believed to fear that if Scotland went ahead with a ban, it would create a black market in which gangs in Scotland would begin a trade in gun sales.

Senior police chiefs are also worried a total ban could be unworkable, as an estimated 500,000 airguns are already in circulation in Scotland.

MacAskill last night lashed out at the Labour-controlled Scotland Office, run by Scottish Secretary Des Browne, for the breakdown in the talks.

"I am extremely disappointed that the Westminster Government has not recognised that Scotland needs responsibility for firearms legislation to deal with this extremely serious problem in Scotland, particularly air weapon crime," he said.

He added: "There is no doubt that when I met Jack Straw in July he was very sympathetic to the issue, as indeed he was on the important point that any prisoner transfer agreement with Libya must abide by the wishes of the Scottish Government.

"However, I detect the dead hand of the Scotland Office behind this. With the Scotland Office dogmatically against any further form of devolution – they have even talked about clawing powers back – not only are they ignoring the serious problem of air weapon crime in Scotland, they are leaving the Labour Party's commitment to further devolution threadbare and confused."

Joe Grant, of the Scottish Police Federation, hit out at the Home Secretary, saying: "It has been shown that there is a need for a ban on air weapons in Scotland. Whether it is achieved through devolving powers or through UK legislation, the pressure for that ban should continue."

Ann Pearston, who led the Snowdrop campaign to ban handguns after the Dunblane massacre, condemned Smith's move.

She said: "There is no reason why we cannot have a different law in Scotland. Children's lives are at risk. They have a different law in Northern Ireland on this issue and we have lots of different laws in Scotland.

"We have our own different education system and I don't see why we cannot protect our children from this menace. I have yet to hear a decent argument why we need airguns, and there are many arguments why we should ban them."

But Robert Sheddon, the manager of the Cluny Clays shooting range, said: "Banning airguns would solve absolutely nothing. Do you think the people who use air weapons irresponsibly are suddenly going to walk into a police station and hand them in? It is so easy for people to buy guns out there; the police know where they all are. If you banned sales, it would do nothing to that whatsoever."

The full article contains 793 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 December 2007 7:53 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Airguns
 
1

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 23/12/2007 00:02:48
Labour in Scotland must have a death wish. Whatever is good for Scotland, the so-called Scotland Office is opposed.

The recent polls have put the SNP ahead for both Holyrood and Westminster. Actions such as this will only add to the SNP lead.

MacAskill should introduce a resolution in the Parliament supporting this move to ban airguns in Scotland and demanding that Westminster give the power to Scotland. I would be most interested to see how Labour, and the LibDems and Conservatives, vote on this matter.

A vote against would confirm that they have no intention to expand devolution and that their constitutional convention is just a wheeze.
2

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 23/12/2007 00:04:57
The Sunday Herald is reporting that the Electoral Commission is refusing to release data regarding the investigation into Wendy Alexander and her gang because a release might interfere with their right to a fair trial. It also confirms that the Commission has had discussions with police bodies on this matter.

I can hardly wait for the new year.
3

beckypumps1,

Fife 23/12/2007 00:11:25
This is all wrong ,are we in Scotland not entitled to ban air guns if we wish. I am all for a ban im sure in years to come we will reap rewards.But I do feel sorry for the upstanding members of gun clubs.
4

ptdoug,

ek 23/12/2007 00:41:19
Westminster picking yet another fight with Salmond and our SNP Government.
5

Calgacus,

Aberdeen 23/12/2007 01:08:35
"There is no impediment to cross-border movement and it would be very difficult to enforce separate regimes and to prevent organised criminals from exploiting any differences."

Good grief! Does Jacqui Smith actually think that "organised criminals" use airguns?
6

Jingling Geordie,

Sunshine on Leith 23/12/2007 01:21:52
Excuse me but have I missed something here? Banning air-guns would be "Confusing and potentially damaging"
To whom may I ask?
Is Jacqui Smith some sort of half-wit?
It is little wonder Labour are trailing in the polls with this calibre of Home Secretary in post.
We do not yet have the the gun or knife culture they have in England, London in particular but we are getting there.
Holyrood should just crack on, call her bluff, let's see what Westminster will do about it, one thing's for sure, the nation, for once, would unanimously unite behind Holyrood.
7

Wisnaeme,

23/12/2007 01:45:27
Well, if there were any substance to the rumours from Labour in Scotland and perhaps from 'allied others' of a differing political persuasion, that more powers to the Scottish parliament from Westminster would be considered then this pronouncement from the control freaks kills those rumours stone dead. Home Secretary, Jacquie Smith no doubt stung by recent differences of opinion between parliaments which did not reflect well on herself or Labour ( police pay award ) does not wish to devolve more possibilities for 'differences' which could quite possible be detrimental to Labour's control of affairs, Scottish for the use of.
Promises to consider more devolved powers to the Scottish parliament in the hope of not only buying time but also buying people is merely delaying the inevitable. That she cites 'differences' is very telling. Perhaps she has had recent experiences of how embarrassing to Labour and herself they have become. Never the less, her pronouncement against 'differences' yet again casts the lies and spin of Labour's 'more powers' into the arena for another round of wee, uppity Scottish parliament picking fights with that mother of parliaments again. Aye, every day that passes brings another Scottish enlightenment of the Labour creatures love of control freakery and their fear of losing control to others who put Scotland's interests above all else.
8

Ian MacBeth,

23/12/2007 02:02:19
Is it an airgun ban, or is it that anyone now wanting to have an airgun would need to get a gun licence?
9

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 23/12/2007 03:04:00
Clear proof that there is no substitution for Full Independance from the other member of the supposed United Kingdom. Smith is the one who planned to shaft the poor English Police Service on advice from her Spin Doctors Department in a secret memo. Now she dares compare removing Airguns with the criminal fraternity using them to commit crimes like armed robbery.

Its Time for the vegatables to be cleared out ASAP. No wonder they keep stuffing up and cant do anything in the interest of the people of the three countries.
10

Heilan laddie,

Perth, WA 23/12/2007 03:10:05
Dont you think that banning air guns is an insult to the average Scottish persons intelligence? Come on get a grip people, banning air guns is not the answer here, the answer lies in Law and Order. Tougher sentencing, instead of giving half baked sentences of probation or community services lets start making long jail terms with no prospect of probation or parole, thats where the answer lies. You ban the air gun you have not solved any problems, the neds will still be on the streets and will only think of something else.
11

Guga II,

Rockall 23/12/2007 03:15:34
Let's all pretend we are members of the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party, and have a kneejerk reaction and ban everything.

What a load of garbage. There is already sufficient legislation to control the misuse of airguns, without resorting to numpty tactics and banning them. The fact that little neds and thugs cause havoc on our streets has nothing to do with the availability of airguns, or of knives. That is due to the lack of any form of actual punishment for them if they do anything wrong.

#4 Do you seriously believe that by banning airguns, the little neds you mentioned are going to stop using and abusing them? Look what happened after handguns were banned. Gun crime, particularly in England increased dramatically. The criminals didn't hand their guns in, they just kept buying more. The legal and innocent users were the ones punished by having their guns nd their hobby taken from them.

#7 The organised crime mentioned is in the context of airguns being banned in Scotland and criminals importing them from England and selling them here. A bit like the ludicrous handgun ban; criminals import them from France and sell them here.

If we are going to start banning things on the basis of how many people are killed by a particular item, when are we going to ban cars, followed by trains, then planes, then horses and so on ad infinitem, ad nauseum.

Get a grip people. Insist that existing laws are properly enforced, with suitable and genuine punishment for those breaking the law, and the problem is solved.
12

,

23/12/2007 04:56:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

Paul Voltaire,

23/12/2007 06:34:30
What is the confusion here?
I would find it hard to believe there is much cross-border traffic with airguns.
Just ban them UK-wide and sack all the airport workers as well for good measure.
14

Bobh,

st augustine, USA 23/12/2007 06:41:04
William Wallace is spinning in his grave!
Why don't you ban teeth? Sometimes you make me ashamed of my heritage.
Buaidh No Bas
15

Geoff,

SA 23/12/2007 06:45:47
Another example of Labours unbelievable propensity for shooting themselves(with pellet guns in this instance) in the foot! Have to agree with 1 -A Proud Doonhamer-Labour clearly have a death wish UK wide and Alex Salmond doesnt need to do much but just keep his nose clean-Labour will give him all the ammo he needs. As a Unionist I despair.
16

Geoff,

SA 23/12/2007 06:51:39
To continue , can the Labour people involved not see that its not evenreally all that much about pellet guns, but the perception that Whitehall bureaucrats are interfering in the domestic affairs of Scotland! That would even p**s me off if I was resident in Scotland! Labour urgently need to put a "THINK BEFORE YOU ACT/SPEAK" policy in place to avoid more damage!
17

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 23/12/2007 08:02:17
Under a Federal Briton this matter would certainly be best devolved. In fact the opposite should occur. The Federal States should have all the powers and only then devolve those essential to the Federal Government to that Government. There are plenty of successful models around the world to give the idea.

Under Calamity Brown Westminster and Wallies have more in common than just alliteration.
18

Hmm ...,

23/12/2007 08:32:10
... I am interested to see that no one has yet taken issue with Jacqui's attitude. She doesn't say that on balance she does not support the suggestion but that "I do not believe it would be SENSIBLE (my upper case) to devolve responsibility in the way you suggest."
In short - silly idea. How patronising is that? And from someone called "Jacqui" - someone who can't even spell her own name correctly!

And from someone who is clearing serious criminals out of prisons early yet wants to fill them with drivers who use mobile phones!

And she was appointed by our Great Leader Gordon Brown, that great team builder, statesman and pension cheat. And thoroughly Good Guy - at least, so he says!
19

DaveK,

Edinburgh 23/12/2007 08:37:11
A ban on air guns as a Scottish only policy would be highly problematic to say the least. The free movement of people and post would leave it Unenforceable. Likewise, this would greatly penalise those individuals who represent their regions and Scotland in shooting, and how would you allow the Games in Glasgow to host a sport essentially banned in the host nation! This is not about guns, hell the booze alone up here kills far more people, domestic abuse, MRS bloody A in hospital. No, this is a fight about Sovereignty and one that has been picked solely for political gain, a case of air pistols at dawn between Belittling Westminster and Belligerent Holyrood.
20

Born to roughneck,

just away oot to buy the Sunday Herald - its an ho 23/12/2007 08:45:23
It just keeps on getting better.
Roll on election day!!!
21

Dr Katharine Morrison,

Mauchline 23/12/2007 09:11:23
Airguns are lethal weapons which also ruin lives by the injuries they cause to humans and domestic pets. If they are banned any person found with one or who has used one is not entitled to say they were actually shooting crows etc and the toddler, man, woman, child, dog, cat got in the way. This opens up the possibility of more effective prosecution and sentencing. I was shot in the back in a public park with an airgun by teenage boys who presumably thought this was a great lark. In some areas people won't let their cats out of the house because they are used for target practice by neds. Whose freedom is limited by NOT banning air guns? It is ours. Of course Jacqui Smith could always do the decent thing and ban them in England and Wales too.
22

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 23/12/2007 09:12:17
"UK ministers are believed to fear that if Scotland went ahead with a ban, it would create a black market in which gangs in Scotland would begin a trade in gun sales."
So all firearms in the Scotland are at the moment legally owned ?
23

McMillar,

Fife 23/12/2007 09:33:37
Remarkable decision for a proposal that would only improve things and reduce anti social behaviour etc…. I’m sure this will roll into the New Year and looks like a no brainer on the face of it. These things shouldn’t even be questioned and I would expect all party endorsements.
24

Bob Christie,

Fiefdom of Broon 23/12/2007 09:33:40
Smith is not prepared to allow this legislation as it is incompatible with New Labour's encouragement of a trigger happy police state.
25

Heilan laddie,

Perth, WA 23/12/2007 09:46:47
#23 Dr Katharine Morrison- Do you really think banning air guns will make way for more effective prosecution? Of course it wont, if they cant make a decent effort at prosecuting someone now what makes you think a ban will change that? The fact is there is gross incompetence in the legal system and the Police force as well as of course the main people in government. I think there is more important things the government should be worried about than silly air guns, Law and Order for one, then education and health care.
26

Boy Wonder,

23/12/2007 09:53:12
Air-rifles/guns have been a problem since Charles Linskaill was a lad many moons ago. I have no problem with people owning them as long as they are in a gun club and the weapons are kept there when not in use under strict security. Otherwise, no-one should have them at home.

And when criminal use is made of these weapons, they should be confiscated and melted down and the perps put away for a very long time.

Let's make the law meaningful!!



27

iceworm,

Anchorage 23/12/2007 09:55:51
Hellan Laddie has it right - punish the neds not the responsible citizens. Uh... there are responsible citizens in Scotland, aren't there?

Same problem here. Punish the honest by taking away some freedom that the dishonest ignore.
28

South Ayrshire Sanny Hossack,

23/12/2007 09:59:40
Another leaked letter from the SNP! Last week Kenny the in-justice minister leeked the letter about how the transport police were protecting us better than his Scottish Bobbys that certainly backfired on him, so he thinks lets have another go just to make people think i'm not a divvy, today another letter leaked he may well get a bit of simpathy with this one but when you take a step back and think about it, it isn't really workable.
If Kenny in-justice minister leaks any more letters people will stop writting to him (or is that what he wants another headline "no-one from the UK Gov. writes to me") He leeks so much I am starting to believe he is a Welsh Nationalist!!
29

Boggle fey the Bog,

23/12/2007 10:01:46
Just a thought, if the Scottish Parliament can ban Smoking, on 'Public Health' grounds, why not 'Air Guns' on the same 'Public Health' platform?

An Act, Public Health Act (Scotland)2008

Art 1. It will be an offense to carry, use, be in possession of, sell, redistribute or otherwise proliferate the use of air, gas and liquid powered firearms or any machine capable of being used, converted or otherwise modified to be used as such, anywhere within the realm of Scotland, other than at specially designated and properly supervised and licensed sites, under the jurisdiction of the Courts of Law of the Kingdom of Scotland.

Art. 2 Failure to comply with Article 1, will in the first instance, on proof of guilt, subject the offender to a sentence of no more than five years detention within a secure unit of the SPS, said offender may also be fined up to a maximum of £20,000, and no less than a fine of £500 payable within seven days of conviction and/or detention for 28 days, within a secure unit of the SPS.

Art. 3 All sentences in Article 2 are to be applied to first convictions, subsequent convictions, will lead to the Maximum penalty being administered for each and every charge that is found proven, such sentences to run consecutively, to a maximum of 35 years with no time off for good behavior.

Art. 4 This Act is designed to protect the health of the public of the Kingdom of Scotland by, reducing the exposure by them to these injury and death causing machines, that serve no real purpose, other than to massage the child like egos, of some of the lesser well adjusted mortals within our society.

Aw well, it's only a thought ;-))
30

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

Edinburgh 23/12/2007 10:03:12
To all of those unhappy this latest example of Westminster attempting to engender disputes with what they regard as the “Scottish Executive”, remember one thing, you have the remedy in your own hands.

IT IS TIME to implement Scottish solutions to Scottish problems, and this can be achieved by removing by the unnecessary layer of government represented by Westminster.
31

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 23/12/2007 10:03:30
Guga II,Rockall#
Friend, it would appear that you are the only one on this forum to have some commonsense in this mater.
Prohibition in any form or context does not stop any thing.
The results of the banning of hand guns is a factual pointer the Home office figures are quite explicit; these figures do not include the police shootings or illegal discharges by the police.
The law has enough powers at present to remove all firearms and air weapons are firearms. Should the Police manage to reorganize and get more than 7% out on the beat at any one time, and the public are to blame they are the ones who do not phone “CRIME STOPPERS” never mind the media stirring the pot for their own ends.
32

Ninian Reid,

Edinburgh 23/12/2007 10:04:27
APB to Scotland's police forces: ban all non-justifiably-held air weapons. NOW.Slugs belong to the garden - not the garage or the airing cupboard.When it comes to responsible Government , Holyrood is (actively) streets ahead of Westminster.Jacqui Smith is a lightweight and a dud. Ask any police officer in the rest of these islands.
33

Steve,

Bo'ness 23/12/2007 10:12:40
Responsible people would be quite happy so see a ban on airguns if it saved lives and stopped these horrific injuries. WHY do people need airguns anyway? I'm sure Scotland's wildlife wont miss them for starters..

Licenced airguns used in organised clubs I dont have a problem with. But they are lethal weapons and should be banned.
34

nell from falkirk,

23/12/2007 10:37:28
3 people KILLED, including a toddler, 1,154 people injured.
What more is needed to bring about a ban on airguns, which have NO legitimate use.
I fail to see the logic in these bizarre arguments that illegalising them won't reduce the numbers in circulation. If owning, selling, trading, possessing, using or redistributing airguns is a crime, and every airgun confiscated is destroyed then of course the numbers in circulation must drop.

And I agree with the others who have said that a ban MUST go together with enforcement, much much heavier sentences, and sentences which are actually enforced - whatever it takes to wipe out this pestilence should be done.

Wee Alex, tell Westminster and Jacqui Misspelled to go to the Devil!
35

Mapper,

Edinburghshire 23/12/2007 10:43:26
I never thought I'd find my self agreeing with Guga II, but this is a typical emotive issue where people get wound up that a "ban" can actually prevent something. This is flawed on so many levels - not least that with a reported 500,000 already in circulation it would be impossible to confiscate them all, especially from those who mis-use them in the first place. There are already laws to "prevent" the criminal atttacks - adding more laws doesn't make them more effective.
As the EU removes border controls, do the SNP plan to introduce them with full searches of everyone & thing crossing the border?
36

Mapper,

Edinburgh 23/12/2007 10:45:25
And we better ban anything that could be used as a weapon - banning golf clubs would solve another problem or two....
37

Publius,

London 23/12/2007 10:51:40
Ann Pearston and other anti-gun campaigners are indirectly responsible for a wave of gun killings throughout the UK. Making ownership of handguns illegal has put them in the hands of criminals and juveniles. Banning airguns will have the same effect.
38

Arrow,

edinburgh 23/12/2007 10:59:39
there should also be a UK ban on the ownership of sharp sticks.
i see from the Sunday Times that Brown is in his Furherbunker aka No 10 and no speaking to Eck. clearly this is the fault to the SNP government trying to communicate rather than in the good old days when the traffic was one way i.e. Westminster to the Scottish assembly giving instrauctions. it is evident that is D Cameron gets into No 10 or cuts the NLP's majority by a significant amount those Lab MPs from Scotland will have more significance generating more tension between Westminster and Edinburgh by the UK Government needing them to push through legislation. roll on the elections
39

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 11:00:20
#40, Publius

I'm not sure I understand the logic of your argument. I wonder if you'd also support the sale of hunting knives, swords and crossbows with a licence. At present, one can buy these in Glasgow for under £30. Young men are the largest group buying these and I'm sure it's not for sport.
40

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 23/12/2007 11:02:22
#37 Nell. I use mine to shoot rabbits eating my veggies. That seems legitimate to me. The effective and affordable alternatives are?

#40 Publius. 'has put them into the hands of criminals, etc' ? So, in the USA where guns ARE legal juveniles and criminals DON'T have them? Weird logic. I'm glad you aren't in charge of legislation.
41

Montague Q X Burton,

23/12/2007 11:03:34
I'm not for banning airguns. A licensing system would be more effective. An application for a license giving the applicant an opportunity to explain why you need an air rifle or pistol and how you can justify it's use in an urban environment should be enough to deter the neds from getting their mitts on them.

Incidentally, the shot baby story. Wasn't the killer shooting at the babes mother...his drug dealer who had stiffed him recently?
42

Publius,

London 23/12/2007 11:25:35
#42 Gregor Addison. I've no problem with requiring a licence for the purchase and possession of any weapon -hunting knife, sword crossbow or whatever. I do have a problem with banning them and sending them underground.

#43 Rulesbutnotrulers. My point is that gun crime in the UK has risen sharply since guns were banned. (The US experience is so different from ours that it has little to teach us. Incidentally, the US has far fewer housebreakings and burglaries. If you break into a private house in the US, you are quite likely to be shot out! And I am not saying that one should shoot burglars!)
43

corporates,

Morecambe 23/12/2007 11:27:26
I agree with Heillen Laddie that it is an insult to peoples intelligence to ban them.

Also with Montague Q X Burton, banning should not be the focus here, it is the people who hold them that need the looking at.

If airguns were banned then it would be neds making their own bow and arrows, then what happens? Ban posession of materials such as wood?

My area (In England) has almost zero incidents per annum with air propelled guns, but there are plenty with stones through windows, vandalism and home made slingshot guns.

It is not the weapons used that's the issue really, it is the people, the parents and guardians of young people too who need looking at with a view to addressing their attitudes to change behaviour.
44

Captain Fantastic,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 11:42:59
Absolutely right, Guga II. Banning creates more problems than it solves. Sounds good, but achieves little. Afterall, if banning hanguns was such a great succes, why are som nay people getinng killed by them?
45

Captain Fantastic,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 11:44:39
Let's see, causes of death in Scotland
Vehicular: 308 (2004)
Alcohol related: 2372 (2005)
Drug related: 421 (2006)
Cancer related: 15,084 (2006)
Death by airgun: 1 (2006/2007)

All above from the General Register of Scotland published statistics. Figures show that death (very rare) and injury by airguns have declined dramatically in the last 20 years, from a peak of 386 in 1991 (0 deaths)to 142 in 2006/2007 (1 death). There have been 5 deaths in total since 1989. All of which shows that there are very few crimes involving airguns in comparison to the numbers in circulation (estimated at least 500,000 + in Scotland). By contrast, statistics on the other major causes of death in Scotland indicate that efforts would be better spent on trying to resolve these than trying to make political capital out of a non-issue. There are more than enough laws on firerarms (1968 Act + numerous amendments), including the new Violent Crime Reduction Act which came into force in October and which bans the mail order sale of airguns and makes all transactions (at the initial point of sale anyway) face-to-face. In any event, only low-powered airguns can be bought without a licence (less than 12ft/lbs), airguns more powerful than that require a Firearm Certificate. We do not need bans - they are completely and utterly useless. They are simply a 'be seen to be doing something' by incompetent politicians without an ounce of imagination.
46

Captain Fantastic,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 11:55:03
#47 - see my comment above. The power increase in airguns is irrelevant (not that it has actually happened). No airgun can be bought legally over the counter unless it has a power of less than 12ft/lbs or the prospective purchaser has been granted a Firearm Certificate by the Chief Constable of his/her local police force with an authority to aquire an air weapon more powerful than 12ft/lbs. This means the purchaser has too have good reason to have one, be of good character and be able to store the weapon securely (as for any real firearm). This has been the law for forty years. Please try and get your facts right (sorry antis don't need facts, only emotional blackmail).
47

Pa broon,

23/12/2007 11:56:02
Banning air rifles will make as much difference as banning hand guns years ago, None! Those that are illegal will remain in use and in circulation and nothing will be done about them. Make the sentencing fit the bill. People should be accountable for their actions. At the moment the sentencing in this country is soft with little or no real consequence.The only people who suffer are those who abide by the law.
48

 Ayrshire Scot™,

23/12/2007 11:57:57
Irrespective on your position on banning or licensing air guns, does this show Labour's embrace of further powers for devolution?
49

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

Edinburgh 23/12/2007 12:19:14
I question the motives of those who desire the right to carry guns.

If there is a valid reason for the possession of these things, then let those desirous of dong so, show that they are capable and responsible individuals with no underlying psychopathic tendencies of enjoying power without responsibilities.

Subject the possession of these weapons to a strict licensing system, with an assumption of disapproval, unless the applicant can show just cause why this should not be the case.

Neds in tower blocks need not apply.
50

Evan Owen,

Dyffryn Ardudwy 23/12/2007 12:38:07
Good grief, what's the point of 'devolution'?

So we now have proof that all these 'assemblies' and 'executives' are yet another farcical 'New' Labour waste of money.

Stop the bus, I want to get off.
51

Geoff,

sa 23/12/2007 12:46:57
21 Dave K-good point-I had not thought of that.

However,Whithall/Westminster need to consider what they do/say when dealing with Holyrood so as to avoid giving ammo to the SNP in their fight to destroy the Union. The Airgun issue is merely a sideshow here to this big Unionist-Nationalist spectacular. What IS needed is a radical overhaul of the whole UK constitutional structure to repair the damage done by Labours half baked, ill thought out devolution plan.
Also come to think of it,if an Independent Scotland did ban airguns and the remainder of the UK did not then your point of how to control the situation would still apply as we would presumably still all be members of the EU with borders much as they are now!
52

corporates,

Morecambe 23/12/2007 12:49:16
Has anyone who has commented here actually tried to purchase an airgun?

It is almost impossible where i live in England, there was two shops selling them and one has closed down due to lack of sales, that should say something, and the other shop sells very highly priced items and will give anyone the 3rd degree when even looking at one.

Try to find them online in the uk and it is difficult except from certain shops.

I owned an air rifle as a child when i lived in Wemyss Bay as my neighbour also had one and we used it for shooting targets in our large back gardens, and never took them onto the streets nor any other area, despite the temptation to go rabbit shooting.

As i said before it is the people that have them that cause problems by using irresponsibly, just the same as a drinker who drinks irresponsibly, alcohol is ok in small measure and moderation, but when you go to excess that's the problem, it is all about behaviour.
53

barbour,

Perthshire 23/12/2007 12:58:33
There is allready laws re the carrying and use of airguns ie,they must be covered (IN A SLIP)in a public place,must not be discharged within 10m of a public path/road etc.Why not just implement the present laws with vigour.The banning of handguns after the Dunblane incident had no effect on crime figures re gun crimeThis sounds like another whinge from the SNP numpties looking to raise the anti-whitehall temperature.The law is there,use it
54

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

23/12/2007 13:49:57
#57

There we have it in a nutshell. This balloon “barbour” is unable to differentiate between Whitehall and Westminster, surely this should be reason alone for chasing this crowd of imbeciles and comic singers?

55

Ninian Reid,

Edinburgh 23/12/2007 14:13:30
Barbour(#57),apologies for being a tad offensive , but you're an anorak and a jackass.Sorry ,I just couldn't resist the garment pun. No, the SNP Goverment is wonderfully in tune with Scottish public opnion.
56

Griffe,

23/12/2007 14:25:55
Smith should impose a UK ban
57

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 23/12/2007 14:27:40
After reading some comments here, I am beginning to wonder if we are descending into the United States mentality on gun ownership.

Suggesting that as more people are killed by cars as a justification to allow airguns or real guns is absurd. Using that logic we should allow anyone who wishes to own firearms. That policy has certianly not worked in the USA which has the highest gun crime in the world.

Anything that makes it harder to own or possess firearms, including air guns, makes our country safer.

Airguns, firearms, knife culture and the ned culture are greater threats to public safety than terrorism.

Ban the possession of all offensive weapons (airguns, firearms, certain knives) and make it an additional offense to use any of these in a criminal act. If you use a weapon in a crime, your potential penalty is doubled or tripled with no potential for early release or any other penalty than imprisonment.

58

Russell M,

Stirling 23/12/2007 14:37:23
Y'all don't get it do ya? Why are Freedom and Democracy such foreign concepts in 21st Century Britain?

Let's revise: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..."

Democracy is the freedom to choose by whom we are governed and it is, in part, what so many Scots have fought and died for over the centuries. Why do "unionists" ignore their sacrifice? Can self-interest ever be enlightened?

Liberty is the freedom to decide everyday whether to continue being a productive and responsible member of society or become a cowardly nihilistic scum-bag anti-social criminal. Not according to the prohibitionist numpties, they see an advantage in a society where everything, imaginably unsafe, is banned. And ASBOs are the ultimate in criminal control. Human Rights -- absolutely, Human Responsibilities -- an essential ingredient.

If the New Labour / Social-Democrats want to destroy Britain, I think they've found a winning combination. Acton, Niemöller, and Orwell have tried to warn us, but we will not listen.
59

Reckless,

Fife 23/12/2007 14:40:09
"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country." --Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44


From Wikipeda:

"The basic tenets of the Bill of Rights 1689 are:
freedom [for Protestants] to have arms for defence, as allowed by law "

"PLANNED series of shooting massacre/atrocities in America that are designed to rile up the American public to a fevered pitch of hysteria and consequently create a mass DEMAND for the banning of all firearms in this country"

http://educate-yourself.org/nwo/nwoguncontrolindex.shtml
60

Russell M,

Stirling 23/12/2007 15:09:20
#61 a proud doonhamer,

"There are three types of lies - lies, damn lies, and statistics." - Variously attributed to Benjamin Disraeli, Alfred Marshall, Mark Twain and many other dead people.

The gun crime, of which you speak, is primarily among the criminal class themselves. Natural selection in full operation. When gun crime does spill over into civil society it is inevitably in a "gun free zone" such as a school, university, church, or shopping mall. Whose policies seem patterned after the "successful" British model where "...firearms are not considered to be an acceptable means of protection..." Source: Metropolitan Police Service who shoot down unarmed innocent civilians with apparent immunity from prosecution.

You think unilateral disarmament equals safety and is worth sacrificing our liberty and human rights. Check the facts here: http://russcelt.eu/guns1986.htm. Then let's put it to a vote. All those in favour of trading their civil liberties and human rights for safety, raise your hands.
61

john z,

edinburgh 23/12/2007 15:32:28
Hard to believe. London Labour, and the criminally corrupt bendy wendy just seem to make one mistake after another. The SNP government are riding high, because at last the people of Scotland can see what a shower of corrupt, inept london-led morons were previously in power.

I too look forward to the dawn raids on the home of bendy wendy, the corrupt labour leader in Scotland. Wendy if you read this, the christmas break is a good time to resign with lessened damage to your party, as everyone is distracted. Do the right thing.
62

AM..2,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 15:34:31
How bad can this? Yet more populist posturing by Salmond. The citizens of this Great British nation must be allowed the right and dignity to bear arms, not have it all stripped away.
It was weapons that forged these islands, men on magnificent white stallions, soldiers up to their knees in blood, drums thundering, flutes chanting,smoke fire rape and pillage, that is what put the Great in Britain. We ruled the seas around the globe the sun never set on our colonies the map was nearly all red bits of it still are nurse we stand before our union flag god save the king err queen rule brittania britannia waves the rules nurse nurse nurse.........make me sleep pleeeeeease
63

AM..2,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 15:37:04
THIS IS A NATIONAL OUTRAGE WHY IS THIS ALLOWED IN THE SUNDAY HERALD.

Salmond’s bold new era of progressive nationalism
By Iain Macwhirter
Comment | Read Comments (99)
LOOKING BACK on 2007, it seems amazing that no-one seriously expected the SNP to win the May Scottish elections." Or so I wrote in this column 12 months ago in a piece imagining how Scotland would look in a year's time. Truth is, I genuinely didn't believe that the SNP would win Holyrood, even as I was forecasting it. The thinking among the Scottish political classes was that, whatever the polls said, the voters would turn back to Labour on the election eve. Many did, of course, but not enough. And the history of Scotland, and the UK, has been rewritten as a result.

May 3, 2007, was an extraordinary night, and no-one who cares about Scottish politics will ever forget it. As Labour and the Nationalists fought it out, hour by hour, seat by seat, the election nearly descended into chaos. Ballot boxes got washed away in the isles, computers went awry and in Edinburgh a man with a golf club attacked a number of ballot boxes. Then there was the "re-engineered" ballot paper, which bamboozled more than 140,000 voters.

It wasn't until 5.32pm the next day that Scotland's new political landscape finally emerged. For the first time in 80 years the SNP had actually won an election - at least, that was what most of us thought. But within the hour, the Labour first minister, Jack McConnell, announced that, no, this was a "magnificent result for Labour", and that it was going to be business as usual.

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With hindsight, this looks like the most monumental arrogance, and Labour have been punished for it, but at the time it didn't seem so daft. After all, the SNP had only returned 47 seats out of 129. Labour had 46, the Tories 17, Liberal Democrats 16, the Greens 2 and Independent 1. If the Tories had abstained, Labour and the LibDems could have formed another government. In fact, look
64

AM..2,

Spluttering with rage in Glasgow. 23/12/2007 15:38:19
With hindsight, this looks like the most monumental arrogance, and Labour have been punished for it, but at the time it didn't seem so daft. After all, the SNP had only returned 47 seats out of 129. Labour had 46, the Tories 17, Liberal Democrats 16, the Greens 2 and Independent 1. If the Tories had abstained, Labour and the LibDems could have formed another government. In fact, looking back on the past nine months, the remarkable thing is that the SNP are in government at all, let alone driving events so confidently.

When the LibDems rejected coalition talks, most of us thought that the SNP would be blown away by what Labour MSPs were calling a "pan-unionist grand coalition". The numbers just didn't add up. How would the SNP get any legislation with only a third of the MSPs and no partnership agreement? But, paradoxically, it was rejection by the Liberal Democrats that made the success of this first nationalist administration possible.

It was Alex Salmond's political genius to recognise the opportunity presented by minority government and to build a moral case for it in a series of speeches that will go down in history as definitive statements of the new politics of devolutionary consensus. The first minister-elect insisted that the "founding fathers" of Scottish devolution, the Scottish Constitutional Convention, had argued for minority government in the Scottish Parliament as a matter of choice. He would oblige. Salmond promised to govern, not in party interest, but "wholly and exclusively in the national interest" and to "appeal for support policy by policy in the parliament".

65

AM..2,

aaargh 23/12/2007 15:39:11
In the end, for all the talk of appealing, Alex did pretty much as he pleased in the next 100 days, using his executive powers to drive through an astonishing range of initiatives and reforms with no particular consensus sought. Saving hospital A&E departments, abolishing prescription charges, bridge tolls and student fees, freezing council tax, cutting business rates, axing government departments and quangos such as Scottish Enterprise, rejecting nuclear power, opposing Trident, replacing PFI and ending private involvement in the NHS. It was impossible to keep up.

In the process, Salmond has created a new form of progressive nationalism, unlike anything seen in Europe in the past three decades. The image of nationalism as a backward and narrow-minded political force, preoccupied with ethnicity and hostile to foreigners, has finally been dispelled. The SNP has made a reverse takeover of the Scottish social democratic consensus that Labour has presided over for the past half-century.

Instead of the SNP being blown away by the unionist majority, Labour were almost blown away by the sheer verve of Salmond's hyperactive administration. Labour end this annus horribilis in a terrible state, with a leadership crisis and a donations scandal. The new Labour leader, Wendy Alexander, has failed to offer any intellectual challenge to Alex Salmond's populist nationalism, and the party organisation is disintegrating.

Labour have feigned opposition to SNP initiatives on issues such as bridge tolls, prescription charges, graduate endowment, and then ended up supporting them. In fact, it is hard to find much that the nationalists have done in the past nine months that Labour really oppose as a matter of principle. They even support Donald Trump's blessed golf course. The truth is that the SNP were doing a lot of things that Labour MSPs would have liked to do, but couldn't because of the London connection.

Despite being only one seat behind the SNP, Labour have yet to mou
66

AM..2,

eeek 23/12/2007 15:40:13
Despite being only one seat behind the SNP, Labour have yet to mount any coherent opposition in Holyrood, and have ceded the initiative on many key issues - such as police numbers, trams, class sizes - to the Tories and the Liberal Democrats. Even on the constitution, the Labour Party has now joined with the SNP and the Liberal Democrats and - incredibly - the Tories to campaign via a constitutional convention for more powers for Holyrood.

For the first time, all the parties in the Scottish parliament are committed to further constitutional change, including taxation. Nothing could better demonstrate just how much things have changed in Scotland in the past year than the fact that there is now no-one arguing for the constitutional status quo.

And who could possibly have forecast, 12 months ago, that nationalists would not only be in power in Scotland, but also in Northern Ireland and in Wales. Progressive nationalism is now the most potent political force in Britain.

Alex Salmond may have been radical in office, but in one sense he has been profoundly conservative. He has become a Privy Councillor and insisted that Queen Elizabeth II will remain head of state of an independent Scotland. The SNP are now talking about the "social union" with England remaining, even when Scotland wins political independence. This is a recognition, I believe, that the UK still has a future, and that the SNP has come to terms with the modern world. Whether the modern world has come to terms with Alex Salmond remains to be seen.

67

AM..2,

On my way to Engerland with bloody stumps for fing 23/12/2007 15:42:48
aargh


eeek


help


bloody nats gerof me aaaaaargh
68

Conan the Librarian™,

23/12/2007 15:49:53
AM..2

HeHe.
69

Steve,

Bo'ness 23/12/2007 16:09:25
Superb!
Back to the debate.
We have some cretins here saying no to banning airguns "what next, ban knives, golfclubs, blah blah.. bans dont work!!" I really need to question your motivation for saying this. Is it because the SNP want a ban by any chance?

By your rhetoric, lets just start selling heroin, prostitutes, explosives and machine guns in Tesco. "Bans dont work!" after all.
Idoits.
70

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

The real world 23/12/2007 16:21:40
gon yersel AM..2, :)
71

Captain Fantastic,

Glasgow 23/12/2007 17:56:12
#73. Thus speaks the voice of ignorance. Not an unusual attribute in Scotland.
72

just chat,

london 23/12/2007 18:39:36
13# so in your opinion the scotish people should NOT be allowed to ban airgun because they are allowed in England? what is the point then scotland having its own parliament if they can't even ban airguns?

they are doing a better job as far as education is conerned, using a gun ANY gun is NOT a sport no more than gambling is, (irrispective what interested parties call them) cars are used for tranport of people n goods for commerce, so are planes n boats n trains GUNS are NOT, their primary purpose is to kill n disable man n beast,

also this is a matter of princible what right has westminster to tell scotland they are NOT allowed to ban airguns on their streets? we know how "safe" our streets are now, after all is their country n they may well want to run it different maybe they do NOT want to end up with a crime rate like ours,

we are well aware of all the do goodies that always stand up for rapist even child molesters and talk about their human rights but i NEVER head anyone talk about the murdered or abused child or the child's parent about their human rights,

or their suffering ban guns n ban knives and forget about their human "rights" they curry guns n knives to rob murder n rape so you think they have human rights go live among them is your right! BUT what gives you the right to tell the scots they are NOT allowed to take stepps to protect themselfs?

because england does NOT? i wish England would do the same too fat chance of that happening untill maybe one day the rich n powerful become the victims too for now they live in their country estate with comfort

ask a family man in a tower block in Hackney what he things of guns n knives they are human too
73

just chat,

london 23/12/2007 18:56:07
so in your opinion the scots are ignorant?

maybe you never read the story of a little boy that was shot "for target practice" by 2 young thugs with an airgun n lost an eye, maybe in your opinon we should use taxpayer's many n send them on a "character" building somewhere nice like the caribbean,

after all they wont be comiting any more crimes while on holiday at our expense, trouble is it character building only works while is "progress"

the reason some of the character building boys after their "programmed finished 2 days later they raped a young girl on her way home,

chop their balls off n see if they do it again never mind character building, and they are NOT boys to be treated as minors n get away with it so was their victim i forgot she has no muman rights only the rapist have and soon we be greatful for not been robed if we venture outside our homes after dark
you want that society go to america
74

Chikderic,

Inverness 23/12/2007 19:05:57
It is not the legality or otherwise of guns which is the cause of crime, but the prevailing culture. Some of the countries which have the lowest crime rates e.g. Switzerland, parts of New England, have almost univeral gun ownership. Except for some large cities, most of the USA has lower crime rates than the UK, particularly burglary, since householders are allowed to own and use guns against burglars.

Recently, in a referendum in Sao Paulo, Brazil, the people rejected a ban on guns because they knew that this would only be enforced against the law-abiding leaving the criminals as the only ones with guns. This is precisely the situation here. The gun laws are rarely enforced against the criminal classes and even if they are the punishment is minimal.

If you really want to ban something to reduce crime then ban Alcohol.
75

John Blackley,

Austin, TX 23/12/2007 19:22:23
So I thought I'd look in on the Scotsman - as I usually do - and scan to find the piece that produced the biggest crop. Crop, that is, of the predictable, irrational, kaleyard, knee-jerk "it's all a Labour conspiracy" drivel from the Scotsman's Snipper readers. First piece I read, I hit paydirt!

So folks, let's say the pretendy parliament is allowed by the big, bad British parliament to pass a law that bans airguns. What happens then? I imagine the half-million airguns currently estimated to be in circulation in Scotland will magically disappear. I imagine that no-one - absolutely no-one - will work out that, just a few miles to the south, they can go and buy airguns to their hearts' content (and pass through absolutely no controls on their way back home). Of course, as the pretendy parliament says so, everyone will happily comply with the law and the 'problem' with airguns will go away. Just like everyone happily complies with all the other laws now.

If the quality and content of the comment on this piece is indicative of the mind of the voter in Scotland then heaven help you. If this comments page is representative then thought appears to be a rare commodity indeed in my native land.
76

Jade,

A Scottish Island 23/12/2007 19:23:38
I utterly deplore vacarious and viscious airgun crimes.

But I would ask all of you to rationalise that what might work for you in cities is going to cause untold misery and potential deaths in the countryside. Maybe you don't experience your pets or livestock being savaged by mink or rats?

My airgun is being used, not only by myself but others, for one sole purpose - the disposal of legally trapped vermin and mink. No doubt, some may think it irrevelant or (the sadder ones), funny, that an entire hen house of free range chickens can be wiped out by one mink in one night. At least I and my friends can dispose of the vermin humanely and quickly, without poisons (which damage preying animals and birds).

I have said to my local senior police officer that I am happy to be licensed to have an air rifle. I am not, however, going to allow myself or anyone else who uses such a weapon with common sense and for good purpose be bullied by city dwellers who have no knowledge or caring about those who have to maintain the countryside because of the failure of themselves and their fellows to control their own. Nor, because of sheer weight of numbers, do you have the right to tell rural dwellers what to do. Westminster has dictated in the past to Scotland - what we are now getting is the Central Belt ruling the rest of Scotland! A poor exchange!
77

US Cavalry,

Poquoson 23/12/2007 19:56:30
.
78

Her Majesty, Queen Sandra,

23/12/2007 20:47:13
Instead of a ban, why not just tighten regulations on the purchase and ownership of such guns, and make people more accountable for their actions?

Many responsible people own guns for sport and also for self protection.

Just came back from Food Lion, needed a couple of last minute things for Christmas. Again, there was the Horrendicoot accompanied by morons making sport of following me around. Personally, I would not lower myself to do that to any other human being.

I am starting to wonder if the Horrendicoot actually works for some of my distant relatives, or why they allow this to cont