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SNP pledge to use new powers to ban airguns

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Published Date: 15 June 2009
SCOTTISH ministers vowed yesterday to introduce an outright ban on airguns and tighten the drink-drive limit if, as expected, new law and order powers are transferred to Holyrood in the wake of the Calman Commission report.
Sir Kenneth Calman will unveil the recommendations from his commission into devolution today. He is expected to call for the Scottish Parliament to be given control over policy areas including airgun licensing and drink-drive and speed limits in a wide-ranging report which is also likely to recommend further tax-raising powers for Holyrood.

Yesterday Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill said if these changes were made, he would move quickly to introduce a complete ban on air weapons and to reduce the drink-drive limit.

SNP ministers have argued for a ban on airguns since the death of Glasgow toddler Andrew Morton in 2005. The two-year-old died after being struck on the head by a pellet fired from an air rifle in Easterhouse.

Ministers have made repeated attempts to get Westminster to ban airguns throughout the UK, or to allow the Scottish Government to legislate for Scotland on the issue.

Firearms policy is reserved to Westminster, but it is understood the Calman Commission is to recommend that part of this area – ie, the policy on air guns – be devolved.

Asked whether he would use the powers to ban air weapons, Mr MacAskill replied: "Oh absolutely. It is a real scourge in our communities."

He added: "We don't care who takes action, as long as action is taken. London did not want to take action so we will take the powers and take action."

Traffic laws, such as those governing drink-drive limits and speed limits, are reserved to Westminster to ensure a uniform law across the UK, but it is understood the Commission will call for this to be devolved.

The SNP has made it clear for the last three years that it wants to reduce the current drink-drive limit from 80mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood to 50mg, making it almost impossible for drivers to drink anything before getting behind the wheel.

The Justice Secretary said he would move to reduce the drink-drive limit if the issue was devolved, despite such a move creating a different regime on each side of the Border.

"We welcome these powers. It is a step in progress and we will certainly use them because it is about making Scotland safer," Mr MacAskill said.

The SNP Government does not have any current plans to change the speed limits in Scotland but this would also be possible if the Calman Commission recommendations are accepted by the UK government.

The most ground-breaking constitutional recommendations from the Commission will be on finance and, as The Scotsman revealed last week, Sir Kenneth and his team are expected to call for a radical redrawing of tax powers, with Scotland to get control over the setting and spending of half of income tax revenues raised here.

Holyrood is also likely to get control over stamp duty – potentially allowing the Scottish Government to reduce the rate to stimulate the housing market – as well as over aggregates tax and landfill tax.

However, Mike Russell, the minister for the constitution, yesterday warned that getting some new financial powers but not others could leave Scotland worse off.

He said the best option was allowing Scotland to raise and spend all of its own money.

"That is the best and simplest solution, anything else risks being a messy fudge. We must not have a system imposed by Westminster which could leave Scotland worse off than at present. That is why independence and equality represent the best future for Scotland."

But former Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander hailed the long-awaited Calman report as the end to Scotland's "pocket-money parliament".

Ms Alexander, who was instrumental in launching the commission two years ago, described the package of measures due to be unveiled by Sir Kenneth Calman today as "very radical".

She said: "For the first time, it will give real financial accountability to the Scottish Parliament; we will end the lazy politics whereby the discussion in the Scottish Parliament becomes simply the Westminster blame-game.

"We have at the moment what David Steel called something of 'a pocket-money parliament'."

"The grant comes from London; the only thing we decide at the moment is that we have some influence over council tax and some influence over non-domestic rates."

She added: "We don't have to make any decisions about our spending and that is simply wrong."

Ms Alexander also said she did not believe the Calman Commission recommendations would need a referendum to enshrine them into law because the Scottish people had already voted in favour of tax-raising powers for the parliament and this was just an extension of that.

And she stressed that although Westminster is not bound to implement the recommendations, she did not expect strong opposition from London.

The question of whether the Calman Commission recommendations will be passed into law depends on the UK government.

The Liberal Democrats are firmly in favour of moves to make the Scottish Parliament more financially independent, but while the Conservative and Labour parties both backed the creation of the Commission, they will be more nervous in case any changes push Scotland closer to independence.

Gordon Brown is thought to have seized on the issue of constitutional change to deflect attention from the expenses scandal, and the timing of the Calman report is likely to find favour with London ministers, who want to be seen to be doing something on this issue.

Downing Street yesterday declined to comment in advance on the report.

However, Downing Street sources have indicated that Mr Brown is ready to endorse the report, at least in principle.

Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Tory leader, is due to meet David Cameron in London tomorrow to discuss the Calman Commission's report.

Both appreciate that it may be up to an incoming Conservative government to decide whether the Calman proposals are introduced and they want to examine the proposals in detail before deciding their party's formal position on them.

Both Labour and Conservative party leaders are expected to give cautious support to the Calman recommendations today before studying the proposals more closely.

But if both parties back the bulk of the recommended changes, it will pave the way for the biggest constitutional shake-up of the UK since devolution.



WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED

PROPOSAL: Income tax allocation.

WHAT IS IT?: Giving the Scottish Parliament power to vary all rates of income tax by 10p in the pound, up from 3p on the basic rate at present.

HOW WILL THE SNP REACT?: With scepticism. Ministers are wary of any change which gives some power to the Scottish Government, but not all. They also fear that any positive impact of changes made will result in cuts to Scotland's block grant.

PROPOSAL: Devolving other tax revenues.

WHAT IS IT?: This would involve giving the Scottish Parliament control over stamp duty, aggregates and landfill taxes.

HOW WILL THE SNP REACT?: Positively. Ministers could lower stamp duty to stimulate the housing market or change landfill and aggregates taxes to favour the environment.

PROPOSAL: Borrowing.

WHAT IS IT?: This would give Scottish ministers the ability to borrow substantial sums of money to finance big infrastructure projects.

HOW WOULD THE SNP REACT?: The Scottish Government has already called for this power to help fund the new Forth bridge so would support this change.

Ministers would know, though, that borrowing requires the Scottish Government to be able to prove it could pay the money back – and that means having the ability to raise taxes.



Radical changes may hit Conservative hurdle

What will the Calman Commission recommend on financial powers for the Scottish Parliament?

Sir Kenneth Calman is expected to announce that the Scottish Parliament is to get a mix of new assigned and transferred tax powers.

This is likely to mean complete control over £10 billion in income tax and another £1 billion in other taxes, like stamp duty.

Ministers are also likely to get new borrowing powers, allowing them to spread the cost of projects such as the new Forth bridge over many years, rather than paying for it in just two or three.

What will happen to the report?

The report will go to both the Scottish Parliament and to the Westminster government.

The Scottish Parliament is likely to endorse it – as the three main unionist opposition parties support the commission – but Holyrood has no power to implement the recommendations. Any changes to the devolution settlement have to made by Westminster which means the approval and willing help of the UK government.

What are the chances of full implementation?

Gordon Brown is keen to push constitutional change at the moment and this fits in with that agenda. However, one key issue here is time. With just 11 months to go (at the most) until the next general election there is not much time to get through complex and detailed changes to the devolution settlement and the tax system, as recommended by the Calman Commission.

So, however keen Mr Brown is to do something definite on the constitution, it is likely to fall to the next government – with an incoming Tory administration being the most likely – to implement the report.

David Cameron is expected to give his backing, in principle, to the report this week but no-one yet knows whether his party will back such radical change, particularly if some senior figures feel it will aid the SNP's quest for independence.



'Andrew's Law' calls sparked by shooting of two-year-old boy

Michael Howie

Two-year-old Andrew Morton was shot in the head with an airgun in Glasgow in 2005 Picture: PA
Two-year-old Andrew Morton was shot in the head with an airgun in Glasgow in 2005 Picture: PA
CALLS for tougher legislation on airguns were first made after the death of two-year-old Andrew Morton, killed in March 2005 when he was shot in the head in Glasgow.

Andrew was killed by a pellet fired by Mark Bonini in Easterhouse. Bonini was sentenced to life imprisonment for the murder, but the boy's parents have since campaigned for "Andrew's Law", which would see the weapons widely banned.

Sharon McMillan and Andy Morton collected 11,000 signatures in support of their campaign for a ban on airguns. They took it to the Scottish Parliament in 2007, when they presented a petition to MSPs along with Tommy Sheridan, who campaigned on the issue.

"The laws which involve airgun crime haven't worked," Mr Morton stated in his petition. "Airgun crimes are still rising and are at a seven-year high.

"If airguns were banned, people couldn't get hold of them to commit such crimes. Our precious son Andrew is no longer with us in body but will always be in our hearts."

Mr Sheridan said a bill aimed at toughening gun laws in Scotland had the backing of more than four out of five Scots.

The campaign was also backed by the Fire Brigades Union, which said its members were being targeted by youngsters with airguns.

In March, the Scottish Government launched a £212,000 publicity campaign against airguns – and attacked Westminster for failing to heed pleas for action.

Following the move, which came just after the fourth anniversary of Andrew's death, the boy's mother said it was a "step in the right direction".

"I wouldn't like another family to suffer the way we suffered, and are still suffering. You'd think it would get easier as each year goes on but it doesn't," she said.

Three Scots have died and more than 1,150 have been injured in airgun incidents over the past nine years.

But former home secretary Jacqui Smith dismissed SNP calls for an airgun ban – and rejected justice secretary Kenny MacAskill's invitation to jointly host a summit aimed at reforming gun laws.

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1

GW,

Peterhead 15/06/2009 00:08:34
Anything less than full fiscal autonomy will fail - Scotland will continue to feel too much of its tax revenues are going south, and England will still object to the Block Grant coming north!
2

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 00:12:15
Lets just hope that Scotland isn't given these powers. MacAskill is not a fit person to wield them.
3

,

15/06/2009 00:14:41
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4

,

15/06/2009 00:16:40
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5

Iainbroch,

15/06/2009 00:20:16
Snzzzzzzzzz! Somebody wake me when the Broonie death cult has decided it is the end of the world!
6

Vivas,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 00:23:12
Excellent.

Devolution was meant to stop the independence train leaving the station. Calman was meant to slow it down a bit ... instead of which they've thrown a few more (although not many) lumps of coal into the red-hot engine. Anyway, every little helps and very nice of them I'm sure.

Choo-choo !!!

7

Willie Mor,

15/06/2009 00:30:06
A process not an event as someone once said.

However, Westminster should not be allowed to stand in the way of Scots moving towards full fiscal control.

Then, and only when the wishes of the Scottish electorate are satisfied, will we have two United Kingdom/s who co-operate on issues through choice,and not through diktat.
8

famous 15,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 00:30:27
Unionists are so amusing. But still stupid. The SNP Government is like a breath of fresh air. Every action they take is to improve Scotland. They must really care about the future of Scotland.
9

Dumb Eye @,

15/06/2009 00:34:46
If McK is going to ban air-guns, could he also please ban rabbits, which are a far greater scourge in my home locality.
10

Castaway™ ,

15/06/2009 00:37:47
There was no need to ask Iain Gray for any comment.... because Mr Brown is ready to endorse the report, at least in principle, it follows that Iain Gray is ready to endorse the report, at least in principle.
11

Barney Thomson,

Reading 15/06/2009 00:41:59
#1 Cynic

Are you really in favour of children being shot, then?
12

Vivas,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 00:53:08
What other constitutional commission has ever been graced by a winner of "Big Brothers Celebrity Hijack", to sit alongside a group of placemen/women, quango-crats and failed politicans to tell us what our national future should look like ? Lucky old us !
13

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 01:04:53

As for the Air-Guns, one can see a modicum of intelligence for once!, but it is getting rather scary to be living in 'New-Scotland', the hiding of cigarette's, the 'You-Are-A-Responsible-Adult', vote for us, fight for us, have children, own your home, but don't expect to be allowed to purchase Alcohol!
Our Biggest Problem being, what have they 'up-their-sleeves, for the next grotesque proposals of lunacies.?

You guessed it!, a new speed limit on the M74, of 5MPH!


14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 01:06:12

NO-ONE!, will ever get to Scotland!, just as well!

:))

15

Eolas,

Strathaven 15/06/2009 01:07:30
Isn't it all just hot air and fuzz. The Calman Commission was always intended to be a happy medium for the unionists, the deal being "you have to give them something" without actually giving "them" anything too much whilst at the same time "giving them" something that may thwart this whole "independence thing"
At the end of the day we have a GB with an unelected PM; who's answer is the vicky to the electorate; who's GB MP's are so self absorbed they deserve nothing other than a good ousting; who's Scottish MP's will do anything to save their bums and have no concern for their constituents. Now call me cynical! But the whole thing is smoke and mirrors, If the Scottish people want independence then that is their will; their right and this attitude from unionist parties of giving this or allowing that is mince. Who the heck are the westminster government to "give" Scotland anything,
Stand up for your constituents; the people of Scotland no matter what party you represent, stop following the London dictat; we are a nation in our own right; we have the right to self determination; FREEDOM!!
16

Alan B,

15/06/2009 01:30:49
The fundamental problem with Calman beyond the fact brown wrecked the process is does not follow through on the concept of devolution. The idea that unless there is a good reason for centralising a decision it should be devolved. Like major call for subsidarity.

The tories talk of devolving power to the lowest level but fail to be consistent and devolve powers to the scottish parliament.

Labour are more interested in powers ego to get serious about devolution. Power mad centralists at westminster.

The lib dems have a good message but not able to get behind their convictions and push it.

Calman is also the wrong approach. It was not a serious commission to look into powers but just a smoke and mirrors response to the snp winning the last election.

The best approach would have been having many commissions looking into specific areas. One for law and order. One for fiscal policy and economics. One for the running of sp. One for transport. Then there would have been some focus.

Labour did this after the shamble of westminster handling of the scottish election when the independent review said the running of the sp elections should be devolved. Pity ego brown would not follow through on his own reviews recommendations.

The snp took that approach with broadcasting that meant there was a focussed approach.

The biggest fundamental problem with calman is it should have focussed on the ways powers can be devolved or even passed back.

It should have suggested that the scottish parliament could have powers passed to it if it requests that power when it has the support of 60% of the chamber. Or (and) with the support of a referendum.
17

Barney Thomson,

Reading 15/06/2009 02:15:29
#17 Cynicus

Point taken though I'm not sure what Iraq has to do with it. I still disagree with your approval of the continued availability and use of these weapons. I believe they should be banned or at least subject to much more stringent controls.

I have seen how easy it is for inexperienced users of these weapons to accidentally injure others, including children. Thankfully, most of these weapons are relatively low powered so serious injury is rare. But not unknown.

Imbecility takes many forms.
18

Brianwci,

15/06/2009 02:19:10
#10 famous 15 says: "The SNP Government is like a breath of fresh air. Every action they take is to improve Scotland."

Absolutely, and what's more growing numbers of the public sees this too which is why the SNP stock is so high.

Amazingly though there are tens of thousands who can't see it because their papers, the Sun, Record etc have very little good to say about the SNP but lot's of bad.

Which is why we must do our bit every time we get the chance. Some may well argue the point with us but for many we will be pushing at an open door.

People just want to be engaged, so let's do it....every day.

I usually end my rants with.....'but I never discuss politics, it's one of my rules, so you'll have to ask someone else about that'.

Good to leave them smiling.
19

Brianwci,

15/06/2009 02:24:25
As for Calman giving us a bit of this and a bit of the other.

It looks very much like: give them as little as we can get away with OR give them as much as they want to keep them in line but keep well away from Oil and fiscal autonomy for God's sake.

We have them on the run, they will go all the way up to full fiscal autonomy if they have to in order to keep the 'Great Britain' tosh going.
20

stonepark,

Cumnock 15/06/2009 02:51:02
Lets put things in perspective: -

.308 (deer) Rifle 2701 ft. lbs.
.357 magnum Pistol 583
Light Spear 167
.22 Rimfire (rabbit) rifle 100
Modern Arrow 58
Air rifle 12 (max)
Catapult 10
Air Pistol 6 (max)

Please note the devolved powers are the licencing of airguns, not the complete ban of them.

So owners would need a airgun certificate or a firearms licence (please note that airguns over 12ftlbs - or air pistols over 6 ftlbs - already require a firearms licence)

There is somewhere near 1 million airguns in Scotland, were everyone to register and apply for a licence, the police would not be able to cope as they can barely cope with the firearms and shotgun licences at the moment.
21

Jo Flo,

Looking forwards 15/06/2009 03:11:03
Most of us don't have time for Calman's report
22

Jo Flo,

apologetic 15/06/2009 03:16:44
Sorry, wrong thread
However, have seen the results of air-gun injuries first hand
This is not a toy
23

Jason,

Japan 15/06/2009 03:26:20
Was mooching around out here in the Japan Alps the other week, when I ran into this Japanese ranger guy with a taser gun. We got talking and he explained his job was to drive away the wild monkeys. We are like only knee-deep in monkeys in this neck of the woods. And if you think a kitten or puppy is destructive, they are as nothing compared to a monkey. So he demonstrated, and this is a serious piece of kit. Shoot at a tree, sparks everywhere. Like something out of “Blade Runner”. And ownership is not restricted, any householder can purchase one. “Let the Force be with you.”
Worth noting that in a law-abiding country there’s no need for stupid bans on useful items of equipment and tools that lead to respectable members of the public getting prosecuted for possession of a Swiss Army knife. Almost anything could be used as a weapon. Much more Health and Safety and you guys washed up on the beach
In UK will be restricted to polystyrene chopsticks.

24

W Smith,

Middle East 15/06/2009 03:28:36
This is the same SNP that believes in 'open prisons' and didn't take action against Hanif and his AK-47.

The SNP allowed Hanif to lie to the public when he said he had no contact with the SNP at the time of his visit to a terrorist training camp in Pakistan.

More grandstanding from Salmond.

You can't blame him though.

He's got to justify some how his salaries that put him right up there with the Prime Minister of Australia Kevin Rudd.

BTW
The SNP are incompetent and can't even enforce existing legislation and now the 79 Group want to bring in more legislation.
25

Statsman,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 03:45:28
More silly bans. I have given up on the SNP.

MacAskill will set the limit to zero and end up snaring people that have had a couple of pints the night before that are safe to drive. They'll be criminalised, have huge bans and fines way beyond the substance of the offence. His air rifle ban will just annoy farmers trying to control rats.

I will not vote for the SNP while this socialist control freak lefty is in a ministerial position. The SNP is like New Labour in a tartan shortbread tin.

Ex-SNP voter.
26

Statsman,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 03:51:29
10 famous 15

Banning stuff is 'fresh air'? Clearly you don't get out much.
27

Statsman,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 03:59:05
24 Brianwci

Cybernats and CyberLabRats are as annoying as each other. You both believe in the same socialist Hell and just disagree about independence. The Lib Dems are idiots and the Conservatives in Scotland just look strange.

Scotland: A country that thinks banning everything is progress according to political activists.
28

Statsman,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 04:20:15
19 Charles Linskaill

You are assuming that just going down to England to buy an air rifle will never occur to a ned or someone willing to sell an air rifle to a ned. The policy doesn't really matter.

Banning things is just a sign of a government starved of something to do with their time. The Scottish Parliament is a talking shop with really only the power to ban things. Calman says they can ban more and the SNP thinks bans = FREEDOM!

Indeed, William Wallace read out his demands regarding socialistic bans before fighting for independence. That is the sign of a true nationalistic warrior. As if.
29

liberalyank,

Florida, USA 15/06/2009 04:48:00
concerning your proposed air rifle ban: there already are laws against killing or injuring children. Passing yet another law will not stop the lawless.
30

VAR,

Zavelstein 15/06/2009 05:32:12
Yet another ban and more legislation. Yes, let's punish all law abiding citizens, force more work on the police (who must interview and investigate law abiding members before giving them a permit), and ensure the overpopulation of pests (in rural Scotland at least)! SNP wants to ban a useful tool and let criminals go free. Why not lock up the criminals, enforce the laws on the books, and allow law abiding citizens to live in liberty. Oh, excuse me, not allowed in the UK. Certainly not under Labour/SNP.
31

Saul Tyre,

15/06/2009 05:58:13
The SNP should stop picking fights with Westminster and do something useful, like banning airguns.
32

sceptic,

livingston 15/06/2009 06:10:02
SNP ministers have argued for a ban on airguns since the death of Glasgow toddler Andrew Morton in 2005. "Oh absolutely. It is a real scourge in our communities."
Third death tragedy at RockNess festival in three years. "No Problem!"
33

dunedin bully wee 1877,

15/06/2009 06:13:15
Evening Times.Publication date 24/12/07

“Labour's justice spokeswoman Pauline McNeill said cross-border firearms laws were the best solution for tackling gun crime.

She added: "The SNP's demand that gun crime legislation should be handed to Holyrood is unworkable."


The Herald 24/12/2007:
But now the Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, has vetoed this, claiming that any variation of the laws between Scotland and England would be "confusing and potentially damaging"

The Home Secretary, in her letter to Mr MacAskill, states: "I do not believe it would be sensible to devolve responsibility in the way you suggest.
"I think it would be confusing and potentially damaging to create a situation in which the entire body of firearms law in Scotland could ultimately differ markedly from that in England and Wales.

"There is no impediment to cross-border movement and it would be very difficult to enforce separate regimes and to prevent organised criminals from exploiting differences."
.
34

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 15/06/2009 06:37:02
Roll on the REFERENDUM. INDEPENDENCE IS OUR WAY OUT OF THIS PATHETHIC union with englald. DIVORCE I SAY DIVORCE.......................................
35

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 15/06/2009 07:06:31
"Giving the Scottish Parliament power to vary all rates of income tax by 10p in the pound, up from 3p on the basic rate at present."

Not very useful considering that in the 10 years the Scottish Parliament has had the power to vary income tax it has never used it, and the only party dumb enough to advocate it where the LibDems when they where playing chicken with the Scottish budget.

After the ramification where quietly explained to them the idea was dropped and hasn't been heard from since.

I can see the Tories and Labour finding these proposals acceptable, for them Calman has always been a way to shift the debate on powers down on to a talking shop that can ignore the people of Scotland's desires.

The LibDems have been advocating much greater fiscal powers be devolved but much like their arguments about federalism, when push comes to shove they will once again show that they do not have the courage of their convictions. No wonder then that they continue to languish in the polls even though Labour has imploded.

These proposals do nothing to increase fiscal accountability, Scotland would have been better off if they where allowed to tax Fairies and Goblins, but I am sure that Lord Mandelson and Lord Foulkes would have objected to that.
36

AngusB.,

Embra 15/06/2009 07:26:42
Back to using snares when rabbiting, once this happens.
37

David MacVicar,

web 15/06/2009 07:41:09
Calman the Clown has spoken, who does this Conman think he is kidding? Part tax revenue, part base rate, part responsibility, part collection, part administration, part gun control, part allowed.


This is complete and utter tax payer funded nonsense.

Remember LIT, something we have full control over?
Where is the media hue and cry about devolving tax? It has gone very quiet. Not a dismissive word.

We even get a quote from the Hungry Patterkillar we wendy saying in her opinion we dont need a referendum.
This failure, doesn't even know what are donations and stetd she didnt understand the system her party introduced. What a fraud.

KEEP IT SIMPLE : Full fiscal control or independence. Used by almost every country on the planet.
KEEP IT STUPID : Unionist mishmash of obfuscated nonsence. Used by nobody, proposed for Scotland.
38

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 07:48:51
MSP's = morons

#43 David

Please explain the proposals that have come out of the National Conversation.
39

,

15/06/2009 07:51:22
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40

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 15/06/2009 07:55:42
"Back to using snares when rabbiting, once this happens."

Very inhumane, exploding carrots are much better.
41

David MacVicar,

web 15/06/2009 07:55:51
Only a unionist hack could propose replacing 1 flawed system by 2 flawed systems. Part UK tax and Part Scottish. An administrative and costly nightmare paid for by Scottish taxpayers.

Are these people sane? Such a ludicrous set of proposals could only be entertained by people absolutely avoiding the obvious solution. As Conman says "it would risk the Union"
42

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 07:58:13
#47 David

Please explain the proposals that have come out of the National Conversation.
43

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 15/06/2009 08:03:50
Only an hour to go until we get to see the dogs breakfast.

http://www.commissiononscottishdevolution.org.uk/news/index.php
44

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 08:12:51
#49 Kampung

Please explain the proposals that have come out of the National Conversation.
45

David MacVicar,

web 15/06/2009 08:12:55
44 The Tin Man;

The position of those favouring independence and the policy for a conversation was policy prior to the Scottish election. The winners formed a government.

Please explain where the Calman commision was on a policy document prior to the Scottish election?

Please explain who voted for it?

Please explain why the policy of the elected minority government and the views of many, including the Greens, were completely excluded in a constitutional commission.

Please explain, since when did UK sanctioned BIASED commissions become the de facto standard?

People trumpeting Calman are an affront to democracy. I wonder, is Zimbabwe their role model?

46

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 08:13:34
#50 Tam

Please explain the proposals that have come out of the National Conversation.

#51 Richard

Please explain the proposals that have come out of the National Conversation.
47

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 08:16:07
#53 David

Please explain the proposals that have come out of the National Conversation.

Who voted for the Nat Con? No-one!

You will be surprised to hear that the majority of MSP's voted for the Calman Commission. It is called 'democracy' - possibly an alien concept to yourself soar alba.
48

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 08:18:30
#53 David MacVicar

After you have explained the proposals that have come out of the National Conversation you can tell us if you believe in democracy.

49

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 08:20:15
#56 Richard

Obviously, you have not taken part in the Nation Conversation, then. Go forth and explain the proposals that have come out of the National Conversation.
50

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 08:21:21
Ban hammers.
51

Tamaz,

Airdrie 15/06/2009 08:24:30
I expected the SNP to actually address issues, no they just want to do the same as other parties. Take a look around and see what can be banned.

Talking on hands free mobile phones is more distracting than alcohol, by a survey/investigation last year, yet its alcohol that is being hit because banning hands free mobile phone calling would be unpopular, so they can claim they are doing something without addressing the issue.

Speeding is an issue on less than 10% of accidents, inattention and carelessness causes more than 50%, yet a plan to address that would take some effort, so just hit speeding more, and then they can raise more money too.

Surely licencing airguns would have same effect as banning, but hey better to ban and ruin everything for those who obey the law and act sensibly, all because off a small minority.

Any hopes that independance would make a difference, just went down the tube, all this parlement can do is ban ban ban ban. What is not going to be banned in this country is going to be compulsory.
52

David MacVicar,

Web 15/06/2009 08:25:08
There are now 3 positions for constitutional change:
Independence: ...... Devolution for adults
Devolution MAX: .... Full fiscal control. Devolution by gradualists.
Calman Devolution: .. Devolution for Dummies.

Calman's 'half of this, half of that' is for half wits.

I always new he was a half wit but I didn't expect it to manifest so strongly in the fakey report. mwwwhahahaha.
53

Edward,

15/06/2009 08:30:38
I wondered if Hamish would also mention the bit about powers going BACK to Westminster, such as Food Standards and I wasnt disapointed, he hasnt mentioned that!
Typical Labour mouth piece, tell the people what the want to hear and keep the bad parts out
What deludes Hamish MacDonnell and the rest of the Unionists is the fact that people want TOTAL attonomy
not the crumbs of the Table
WHY does Scotland only get HALF of its own Income TAX?
Why does Scotland not get the Oil reveues?
54

Edward,

15/06/2009 08:32:23
Scottish Governments National Conversation - Listening to the People of Scoptland
Calman Commission - Established by the opposition parties and only listening to themselves!
55

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 15/06/2009 08:32:27
Home Rule is the name of the game.

The Scots just like our Welsh, Irish and the majority of our English cousins want a system of government that retains our natural links whilst providing the autonomy to see what money is being raised, by whom, and how it is being spent on our behalf by the elected politicians of the day.

Calman takes us on a course that the rest of the United Kingdom will want to copy and that in turn is known as Federalism.

We might not win every battle, but we will eventually win the war, as well as the hearts and (more importantly) the minds of the voting public who want this kind of deal, not seperation.

Bring on the so-called independence referendum.

56

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 08:36:13
#62 Edward

As the Holyrood exec now slopes-off the majority of Scottish legislation to Westminster, I haven't got the slightest idea why anyone would think that they need more powers. For all their talk, they have demonstrated that what they really want is less powers.
57

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 08:38:08
Ban cars.
58

redcliffe62,

15/06/2009 08:40:28
with the snp the major party in scotland to ignore them and their policies as if the outcome is the will of the people is just stupid. brown democracy in action. and where is murphy's press releases the last 2 weeks, is he quiet because he has something to hide? is he one of the numerous MP's still to get "telegraphed?"
the issue of oil revenues, back up to 70usd a barrel, is now back on the agenda. the unionists were quick to downplay monies from oil to secure a balanced budget for scotland in future when it was down at 40usd per barrle, now it is at 70 we hear nothing about it..... as the argumnet is one that matches the snp. i agree at 40usd per barrel things would be tough, as they would be in alaska for palin when oil makes up a fair percentage of her state budget, but now oil is back at the "right" price, not too high and not too low it is workable for everybody. which would also be the case for scotland plc.
59

gus1940,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 08:40:49
Is anybody other than Scotsman 'journalists' sufficiently naive as to believe that Culpability Brown didn't give these proposals the nod prior to their publication?
60

dunedin bully wee 1877,

15/06/2009 08:41:41
No mention of airguns by Calman on GMS this morning, although he did mention returning “bankruptcy” administration to Westminster.

Leaving that aside for the moment, (until we can see the details), I am looking forward to hearing from a spokesman from HMRC on how they can implement a variable Scottish income tax rate when they thought it was impossible to implement the LIT variable rate.
61

David MacVicar,

web 15/06/2009 08:41:43
The Tin Man. Your effort to deflect is a non starter. Ia answered your question. You ignored mine. The Converstaion was written on the SNP policy prior to the election. The government has since submitted its position on different tax powers to Calman.

The coversation is not a comission and did not miss a deadline to publish any reports. Anless you can show different? IMO The conversation itself is a waste of money. There is no real debate. The onus was on the Unionists to participate not the other way round.

You can either answer my questions fully or continue to deflect. The subject of the thread is Calman and his overdue report.

Calman never even examined full fiscal control. His report is a sham. We all know it. They know it. Ostracising a large portion of the country is not a way to save the union - only prolong it.

Obviously they don't think the union can be saved by listening to and airing the views of the Scottish voters.

Suppressing peoples opinion is not democratic. The viewpoint of our elected government is suppressed by a UK Commission - discuss.
62

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15/06/2009 08:44:10
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63

David MacVicar,

web 15/06/2009 08:45:05
dunedin bully wee 1877

Well you have to admit Westminster does have greater experience in encouraging massive debt followed by personal and commercial bankruptcy.
64

dunedin bully wee 1877,

15/06/2009 08:57:16
72 David MacVicar

You may have a point there, however I await with interest the details of this apparent reduction in the powers of the Scottish Government and who is supposed to benefit from this.
65

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 08:57:53
Richard @56 do not waste yuor time with Vichy tin Man .
He truly loathes his country and actually believes we are too weak ,too stupid and too poor to achieve self determination.

He is one of those saddo Labourites that believes in the superiority of Westminster and is happy to accept any crumb thrown to him from the moat cleaning thieves.

He knows his place in life , on his knees ,and he wants the same supplication for this country.

The good news is the Scottish people are not listening to his politics of doom and gloom .
The forward thinking policies of what is best for Scotland of the SNP are winning the day.

I also note that the Lying Labour thieves are wanting an extra 3 months to hold Springburn bye-election.
What is the betting we have a world record postal ballot??
66

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 15/06/2009 08:58:33
#64 Liberal for life

It was the Liberals who first proposed Home Rule for Ireland back in the 1880's which dragged on unfulfilled into the twentieth century and eventually led to civil war, 1000's of deaths and eventual partition. These festering sores of this go slowly approach still linger on today in sectarian hatred.

Excuse me if I don't want to follow the same failed Liberal gradualist approach in Scotland.

If you LibDems are serious about Federalism and Financial Autonomy, then demand it now. Condemn Calman for what it is, an attempt to placate the people of Scotland with a few meaningless crumbs.

If you ever hope to get above 18% you will need to grow a pair, nobody votes for indecisive.
67

dunedin bully wee 1877,

15/06/2009 09:09:23
I liked Alex Salmond’s comment on GMS this morning on why he did not participate more fully in the “Calman Commission” which of course had no remit to consider independence or even full fiscal autonomy.

He replied that “if the SNP dropped their policy of Independence, they would just become another Unionist party, and you wouldn’t want that, would you?”

Quite so Alex!
68

gus1940,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 09:14:15
Now we need a debate on the definition of what precisely 'Income Tax Collected in Scotland' means.
69

,

15/06/2009 09:15:37
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15/06/2009 09:20:22
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John S,

15/06/2009 09:24:23
Calman Commission - Final report can be found here:-
15 June 2009 - Serving Scotland Better: Scotland and the United Kingdom in the 21st century (Final Report) (PDF, 2.62MB)
http://tinyurl.com/68a7hn
72

,

15/06/2009 09:24:39
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73

Laird O'Gorgie,

15/06/2009 09:26:00
Yet another Unionist inpsired commission that spent more time in Edinburgh's clubs and back rooms. No doubt this trash will appeal to the dinosuars at labour and the public school boys in the establishment but for the ordinary Scot its yet another sell out designed to maintain the Status quo.
It would be very interesting to go over the expense claims of the commission members. Another weekend at Gleneagles anyone!
74

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15/06/2009 09:28:17
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15/06/2009 09:32:55
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15/06/2009 09:38:28
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Davy,

15/06/2009 09:39:25
A proper new law reverse, the smoking ban & regain the respect of the real people.
78

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15/06/2009 09:44:36
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79

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/06/2009 09:45:24
"But former Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander hailed the long-awaited Calman report as the end to Scotland's "pocket-money parliament"."

Typical Unionist response. The self-loathing is palpable!!
80

Ronnie Ray,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 09:46:00
Why not go the whole way..crossbows and catapults are just as dangerous...they should also ban tavish scott ....if hes a viking Im ned kelly ..he should be sponsored by tampax
81

,

15/06/2009 09:47:46
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15/06/2009 09:53:27
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/06/2009 09:54:21
17 Cynicus

Maybe you should engage your brain before your mouth?
84

Stan Butler,

15/06/2009 09:54:55

I wonder if Cooncillor Kalashnikov has anything to say about this proposal?


85

kendomacaroonbar,

Argyll 15/06/2009 09:58:22
93 - Davy... Aye, and they should reverse the ban oan spitting in buses and hocking up in public... a working mans goat tae clear his throat somewhere eh ?
86

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/06/2009 09:59:51
#30 Smith

That has to be the silliest post ever!
87

dunedin bully wee 1877,

15/06/2009 10:00:10
84 gus1940,

“Now we need a debate on the definition of what precisely 'Income Tax Collected in Scotland' means.”

T hat is a very prescient point.

Not all income tax paid by employees resident and working in Scotland is collected by the Cumbernauld tax office.
It really depends upon where the employer is registered and the collection office allocated to their particular PAYE number.
For example, if someone happens to be working in Glasgow or Edinburgh for example, and be working for an English registered company, they could easily find that their income tax contributions are being collected by a London based HMRC office.

This is a complex situation and also affects other taxes such as NI, VAT, Corporation Tax, Capital Gains and various other taxes and duties.

This is at the heart of the great dilemma over the validity or otherwise of the annual GERS estimates of Government expenditure and income relating to Scotland.
This dichotomy is also why Calman can claim that revenues from the North Sea may vary annually between £1 billion and £12 Billion annually, whereas the SNP can claim that these revenues alone actually exceed the Scottish block grant.
At the end of the day it all boils down to who or what you believe.

I would merely add that the Westminster government do not have a good track record on this issue.
88

,

15/06/2009 10:02:05
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89

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/06/2009 10:02:49
Brown will be unable to agree to many of these recommendations. He is too much of a control freak. For example, allowing us to run our own elections.
90

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15/06/2009 10:05:36
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15/06/2009 10:07:07
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15/06/2009 10:10:18
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15/06/2009 10:11:49
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94

Jerry Springer,

15/06/2009 10:12:48
109 KampungHighlander

We can all read the report for ourselves, we don't need you carpet bombing the forum with every sentence from the document.

You are ruining this article for everyone.
95

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 10:15:22
The Calman report has only one significant passage -
"Our recommendations will be a big change, and they will have to be introduced carefully, stage by stage. Implementation will have to be very carefully managed."
Czechoslovakia managed to split into two independent countries ( the Czech Republic and the Slovak Republic ) in four months, between decision day, 26th Aug 1992 and implementation day, 1st Jan 1993.
96

Jerry Springer,

15/06/2009 10:21:57
Calman

"These UK taxes include those from North Sea oil and gas which go up and down very markedly from year to year, because of the volatility of world oil prices".

FACT - How can you possibly dispute it?

"and are likely to decline in future as production continues to fall."

ONCE AGAIN, FACT - How can you possibly dispute it?
97

Jerry Springer,

15/06/2009 10:27:57
116 cu ceallach,15/06/2009 10:24:07
"Oil and gas taxation revenues from the UKCS [UK continental shelf] will also diminish over time given the finite nature of the resource"
Yes Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Yeman and Saudia Arabia should all join the 'union' as oil will run out.
The stupidty is breathtaking.
======================================================

Are you on some form of medication? If not you should be.

Your post is as relevant as Susan Boyle pulling out of the BGT tour.
98

Farky,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 10:29:13
The proposals for tax seem to be a fudge alright. Easier and simpler to give control for a whole area of tax rather than part of each individual area of tax. I suspect Calman intends to make the tax issue a poisoned chalice for the SNP, rather than properly devolve tax collection (or whole area of tax) which is the sensible option. A bit closer to independence though, so no bad thing! My Scottish passport gets ever closer!
99

Jerry Springer,

15/06/2009 10:31:30
119 cu ceallach,15/06/2009 10:30:00
117. Plasma Car Buyer
Nowhere to run to BABY, nowhere to hide.
======================================================

Must be drugs.

No other possible explanation.
100

dunedin bully wee 1877,

15/06/2009 10:32:39
114 Jerry Springer (Rufus).

What are your predictions of the future revenues to be gained from the North Sea oil and gas fields over the next say, twenty years?

And how do you justify Calman’s contention that such revenues have recently fluctuated between £1 billion and £12 billion in recent years and are therefore too unpredictable to assign?
101

Phil C,

15/06/2009 10:33:23
Kampung, I can't find the recommendation about the Scottish people regaining their birth right to live in their own country, or the cleansing of nuclear weapons from our land, or the reduction in influence of the incompetent and dishonest anti-Scottish mob at Sleazeminster, or the proceeds from our natural resources staying at home, or our distancing from the warmongering views held by the Labour loonies..........

Are they not there?
102

Soloman,

Stirling 15/06/2009 10:36:15
It's good to know that the voters can have their say as part of the National Conversation.


Did the un- elected Lord Mandelson get a say in the Calman set up?

Break Free

X VOTE SNP X

Independence from Westminster
103

Castaway™ ,

15/06/2009 10:43:50
#85 - #110 KampungHighlander. Thanks for taking the time to reproduce the Executive Summary.Very much appreciated.
104

dunedin bully wee 1877,

15/06/2009 10:46:43
129 cu ceallach

Why not Westminster elections also?

I mean, no-one would have any concern over spoiled ballot papers or “postal votes” then would they.

Is Douglas Alexander a consultant for the voting regime in Iran?

Just wondered.
105

Greyhound Welfare,

15/06/2009 10:48:31
I death by an idiot with an Air Gun so ban all Air Guns. Hundreds of deaths on the roads yet no propasal to ban motor vehicles. The mobile phone usage whilst driving is illegal but you see many people still using them for talking and texting whilst driving. I agree with 20mph in towns and residential streets but who is going to enforce it the police in their cars. Thankfully I don't live in Scotland which is beginning to become more like a one power state like Iran.
106

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15/06/2009 11:03:02
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107

AJ Fife,

15/06/2009 11:06:36
This is all very well, but air guns have their uses. Especially when it comes to chasing Labour Party activists fae yer front door!

Seriously though, this is simply more great policy from a great Scottish government. Mr Salmond and his team really do look after all our interests, unlike the self serving Labour mob!
108

dunedin bully wee 1877,

15/06/2009 11:19:05
134 Greyhound Welfare

I note that you are not a resident of our fair country.

I’m sure however that you will be very welcome if you should ever decide to visit us.

Just don’t bring with you any air-guns with which you may intend to shoot at passing weans, buses or any giant rabbits disguised as motor cars.

You people give me the heebie jeebies!

109

Jimmy Fae the West,

Hull 15/06/2009 11:21:23
134.
Stupid or just intentionally being thick?

Are you advocating that Driving licenses, car registration plates and chassis numbers no longer be registered?

It is illegal to own an unregistered vehicle and it is a prison offence for driving one.

You see owning a car should be as free and easy as owning and using an Air-gun?

Hmm!

I hope you support the Union and are intending to emigrate come the revolution which is building.
110

Allan(handofgod137),

15/06/2009 11:28:38
#135 Have you doubled up on your meds again, instead of licencing airguns because on junkie shot another drug dealing junkie's little burden on society, the snp should look at ways of banning junkie scum from breeding.
111

Allan(handofgod137),

15/06/2009 11:30:10
#139 In you attain independence, and all the un nionists leave, who's going to be left to do the work and pay the taxes which currently support you?
112

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

15/06/2009 11:32:27
#11 Dumbass, "If McK is going to ban air-guns, could he also please ban rabbits, which are a far greater scourge in my home locality."
How many two year olds have these rabbits killed?
113

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 11:33:56
134
Greyhound Welfare

"I death by an idiot with an Air Gun so ban all Air Guns."

What do you consider to be an acceptable number?

"Hundreds of deaths on the roads yet no propasal to ban motor vehicles."

A fallacious argument. Motor vehicles and airguns are not the same. Motor vehicles serve a useful function. Airguns do not.

"The mobile phone usage whilst driving is illegal but you see many people still using them for talking and texting whilst driving."

To argue that because some people get away with breaking the law no law should be enforced goes beyond fallacy and into the realms of insanity.

"Thankfully I don't live in Scotland which is beginning to become more like a one power state like Iran."

Your ignorance of Scotland and its politics is all too clear. In fact, we are just emerging from a decades-long period of one-party rule. Although the comparison with Iran is just silly.
114

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 11:35:10
I see the list of excuses not to have a referendum have started.
115

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 11:38:27
141
Allan(handofgod137)

"In you attain independence, and all the un nionists leave, who's going to be left to do the work and pay the taxes which currently support you?"

On what, other than dumb prejudice, do you base your assumption that only unionists work?

On what, other than dumb prejudice, do you base your assumption that all unionists would leave an independent Scotland?

116

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 11:43:12
144
Tormod

"I see the list of excuses not to have a referendum have started."

Remind me. What is the British Labour Party's position on a referendum at the moment? Are they for it or against it on Mondays?

117

Alan B,

15/06/2009 12:18:17
As predicted Calman has turned out to be a sad joke.

Wendys response is so typically labour. She has been humilated by this report as she set this up with the libs and she belived in fiscal federalism and not this cop out and the libs in the majority of taxes being devolved.

Why can we never get any honesty from labour politicians.

118

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 12:28:06
146 Good question, we'll have to wait until the latest rumblings amerge from Das Bunker.

147 It will be interesting too see how how they intend HMRC mechanics to be altered.

After all we were all told during the LIT discussions that HMRC wouldn't play ball and collect that tax on behalf of Scotland.
119

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 12:34:32
Absolutely crazy.

The Government seems to wish to restrict and ban choices all the way. What will be banned next ? What liberty removed? Can Scotland become any more totalitarian ?

The vast majority of airgun users are very responsible and the current limit of 1 1/2 pints hardly makes you into a drunken bafoon behind the wheel !

The government are treating these new powers like kids they feel they have to tinker and fiddle with them - not to make Scotland a better place but simply to exercise their ego's ....

Labours badge was taxing and banning ... I thought the SNP was different until now. This sadly is just more reinforcement to the fact that it no longer really matters who you vote for you get the same old crud !

No wonder people are sick to the back teeth of politicians.
120

Vivas,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 12:35:00
#122 dunedin bully wee 1877...
"...Calman’s contention that such revenues have recently fluctuated between £1 billion and £12 billion in recent years and are therefore too unpredictable to assign?"

Indeed. The UK govt has had no difficulty in assigning these supposedly unpredictable revenue streams in the last 30 years. And of course Scotland is painted by the unionists as too feckless and cluless to do exactly that same thing.
121

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 12:38:13
The real question is 'will we still be able to bludgeon toddlers with disabled airguns, or will we have to revert to slaughtering them with kitchen knives'?

122

Alan B,

15/06/2009 12:38:36
Calman suggests handing back powers to Wesminster.

As these powers were given to scotland via a referendum are they serious going to remove powers without getting the approval of the scottish people.

When are they going to have a referendum to allow us to approve or reject their proposals. is there going to be an independence question too. will they include a fiscal autonomy question for democracies sake.

123

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 12:40:14
149
Voldemort

"Can Scotland become any more totalitarian ?"

Nurse!

124

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 12:42:16
#152 Alan B

The exec are already handing back powers to Westminster - they don't need Calman's help.
125

Alan B,

15/06/2009 12:42:33
#Tormod
Labour said it would be an economic catastrophy as lit would increase the top rate of tax to 43% they had to shut up quickly as brown and darling increased top rate tax to 45% and then 50%.
126

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 12:43:14
152
Alan B

"As these powers were given to scotland..."

Again I say, nothing has been "given". We have simply taken back some of what was ours anyway.

127

Alan B,

15/06/2009 12:46:14
# Tin Man

Your response just shows the typical tory and labour contempt for democracy.

Democracy is about the concent of the people no matter whether politicians like the outcome or not.

There is a serious democractic issue if politicians remove powers granted via a referendum.

128

The Strategist,

15/06/2009 12:48:41
The oil argument is patronising nonsense. Even at $40 the price is considerably higher than it was in the 80s and 90s. In the middle 90s the price fell to $10.... for a whole 22 days spread over six months..

Yes - production has fallen but the increase in the oil price has helped compensate for that.

Now, the price is on its way back up again. Such is the fragility of the supply/demand balance that even a sniff of economic recovery cause a jump in the price to over $70.

Assuming that the global economic recovery takes off properly in 2010 sometime then it's very safe to assume that the oil price will surge once again to potentially over $100. This will encourage more exploration in the N Sea and help improve on the overall decline rate.

So I'm afraid Calman is talking nonsense and I'm extremely disappointed that Alex Kemp has been conned into supporting the political objectives of the commission. He should know better.
129

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 12:49:40
I propose Scottish Speed limits as follows:

Motorways: 67.5 mph

Trunk roads: 61.5 mph

Town: 35 kpm

Driving whilst under the influence of airguns must be banned.
130

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 12:50:36
152 Alex Salmond has them stuck in a check mate position, they neither can grant new powers or reduce them to the Scotland Act without our permission via a referendum.

As the Act and it's 3p SVR was introduced via a referendum so any subsequent change would have to be via a referendum.

Mr Salmond laid a large bear trap and Calman has walkind into it.

If they have a referendum it will and must be multi question.

If they do not it it show up this sham for what it is.
131

Alan B,

15/06/2009 12:51:47
why has the scotsman buried the story that those reviewing scotland fiscal position for the calman commission have been gagged as they disagree with outcome.

132

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 12:52:28
159 Getting your imperial and metric measuresment mixed up pal?
133

Sgian Achlais,

15/06/2009 12:52:40
Tax raising powers good. Reduction of the block grant by the same amount of the new tax raised will be very bad and pointless.

Will the additional Tax turn into additional money for Scottish Government.

Increase Tax - Reduce block Grant = No impact on money raised for investment in country.

Reduce Tax - Same Block Grant = reduction on money raise for investment in country.
134

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 12:53:09
154
The Tin Man

"The exec are already handing back powers to Westminster - they don't need Calman's help."

By "exec" are we to presume that you mean the Scottish government? Maybe if you learn the correct terminology people might take you more seriously.

Then again, maybe not.

135

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 12:54:15
161 Are you referring to the Heriot Watt team?
136

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 12:55:19
163 Damm it you spotted that fly in the chardonay..

Oh aye.
137

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 12:56:43
#157 Alan B

No-one asked me if Scottish legislation should be handed back to Westminster - Holyrood just went ahead and did it.

I demand a referendum on the legality of Hilti guns. A multi-option ballot would be best:

- No change.
- Outright ban.
- Hilti-gun users to be trained and licensed.
138

Alan B,

15/06/2009 12:57:28
#Tin Man

Given that health is a devolved ssue. Why on earth would Calman suggest taking away powers over the regulation of health professionals from the scottsh parliament.

it makes no sense.
139

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 12:59:16
#162 Tormod

I think the metric system is more fitting for the urban environment, whereas imperial measurements should be enforced rurally.
140

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 13:00:54
158 Interesting isn't it especially after AD's last budget

http://tiny.cc/aEuYy
141

Alan B,

15/06/2009 13:01:11
#167 Tin Man

Your silly response shows that even you think the calman report is a joke and indefensible.
142

Sgian Achlais,

15/06/2009 13:03:21
Air Gun Ban - Totally disagree.

Once again we are organising society according to the lack of parental control, education and social responsibility in the slums of Glasgow.

I agree we should not sell Air Guns in Easter house or in any city centre area without very strict license.

In the rural areas which cover most of scotland's landmass having an air gun is something most young boys have at some point.

This measure can be targeted in city area's by them having to be members of a registered club, parental purchase, national license for example.

Why should people who would never point a load water pistol at a child be penalised by laws catering for scum who can still get them from England in less than 2 hours of driving.

This is the same mentality of nanny state that wants to ban all alcohol sale prices when they know which stores are selling the problem drink and what the problem drinks are. It is not difficult to spot the buckfast bottles lying around the streets.
143

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 13:04:00
169 That's a wee bit confusing!! I just thought you mis-typed MPH and KPH as the K and M beside each other on a qwerty keyboard.
144

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 13:04:11
#168 Alan B

There is a BMA. Never heard of the SMA. However, I agree that their is a great urgency for setting up a separate Scottish licensing system for doctors.
145

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 13:06:36
#171 Alan B

Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion that Holyrood is a joke. I suppose that makes Calman a joke too.
146

nova albion 3,

15/06/2009 13:06:43
Hell,at this rate you lot in Scotland won't be able to have a sh't without permission!
147

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 13:08:44
176 Shoite is something who have a Phd in! In fact if Shoite was an Olympic event you could represent England.
148

Sgian Achlais,

15/06/2009 13:10:01
161Alan B, 15/06/2009 12:51:47
why has the scotsman buried the story that those reviewing scotland fiscal position for the calman commission have been gagged as they disagree with outcome.

==========================

If I commented on the answer I would get banned again.

A wild guess would be that Labour have not asked them to report it.
149

Geomac 1,

Scotland 15/06/2009 13:10:20
Oh goody - another ban! We haven't had a ban for a while now!!
Handguns banned - people are still being shot
Knife ban - people are still being stabbed
Air gun ban? What difference will that make other than to make MacAskill feel good and annoy the responsible majority of the electorate.
When will politicians learn that indiscrimate bans are not the answer. If they think that a ban will make us all feel safer, they're from another planet - hmmmm! I forgot, they are from another planet!!
150

Alan B,

15/06/2009 13:11:05
# Tin Man

What was wrong with the existing devolved system of health worker regulation? Why move it back to westminster? Who was requestng this proposed change? Why?
151

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 13:11:24
#176 nova

Faecal matter poses a real health hazard, and you are correct that strict regulations should be introduced.
152

nova albion 3,

15/06/2009 13:15:00
177. LOL! Dooesn't bother me chummy,your the mugs that voted Salmond and his suffocating laws into a position of power.
153

Alan B,

15/06/2009 13:16:52
# Tin Man

"I have come to the conclusion that Holyrood is a joke"

You sound like a unionist/labour supporter that cannot come to terms with scotland voting for the snp.

Lookng at the serial corruption from westmnster recently that sounds like a good idea to have them run everything. They did so well at runnning scotland into the ground before.
154

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 13:17:25
#180 Alan B

I have absolutely no idea what you are on about. I think that 35 kpm would be about right, in the Scottish urban setting.
155

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 13:23:32
#183 Alan B

You are a Labour supporter, not me.

You sound like a seperatist/SNP supporter that cannot come to terms with scotland voting for the snp.

Lookng at the serial incompetence from holyrood for the last decade sounds like a good idea to have them run everything.
156

tomoh,

europe 15/06/2009 13:35:02
Calman: Don't give the weans too many sweeties.
157

Geomac 1,

Scotland 15/06/2009 13:40:25
#185 TTM.
When did Scotland vote for the snp? They don't even have a majority at Holyrood never mind a majority of those who voted at the last election far less a majority of all thos eligible to vote!
158

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 13:44:05
#187 Geo

Ok... most Scots didn't vote for the SNP, but they are the 'most popular party', hence they get to drive, but only at speeds of 35 kph, and below, whilst not carrying an airgun.
159

Ewan Randall,

15/06/2009 13:44:40
(#160) – (Tormod) – “As the Act and it's 3p SVR was introduced via a referendum so any subsequent change would have to be via a referendum.”

Why?
160

Geomac 1,

Scotland 15/06/2009 13:56:34
#188 TTM - you think they're going as fast as 35kph? In the past few months they've been going backwards - maybe an airgun pellet up their bac**ide would help?
161

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 14:01:14
189 The Scotland Act was based in the claim of right that said that the Soverignty of the people was
absolute.

Quote :- "We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount."

By allowing the Act to be written into law by the wishes of the people by a referendum any change to that act that altered the constitutional arangements must be altered by a referendum.

A precedent was set in 1997.
162

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 14:04:46
187
Geomac 1

"When did Scotland vote for the snp? They don't even have a majority at Holyrood never mind a majority of those who voted at the last election far less a majority of all thos eligible to vote!"

The SNP was elected to government by exactly the same rules as applied to all other parties.

163

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 14:09:32
#190 cu

You are what is called an "SNP cyber-thug' - a term you have helped to elevate to the mainstream media. At least it looks like you won't get to play with airguns, though.

Most of the electorate didn't vote for the SNP - it is merely a statement of truth.
164

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 14:23:42
194
The Tin Man

"Most of the electorate didn't vote for the SNP..."

Enough. That's all that matters.

165

Mèths,

15/06/2009 14:26:29
Kimba still here I see.
166

Arthur G,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 14:27:28
#19
Charles

I think we would apprecate your 'pearls of wisdom' a little more, recondite though many of them are, if you were to let someone school you in the proper use of the apostrophe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe
167

The ex Pat,

15/06/2009 14:34:38
Air Guns - Yet again the actions of idiots are penalising the law abiding majority.

Tax raising - This is rich when the English stole Scotlands Oil. If that revenue had come to Scotland tax might have been on existant today.
168

Arthur G,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 14:42:07
Will the devolved powers include the right of the Scottish Parliament to fund one way tickets south for all the luvvy Lie bour 'celebs' who will want to flee Scotland come 'independence'?
169

KampungHighlander,

15/06/2009 14:44:43
#158 The Strategist

"So I'm afraid Calman is talking nonsense and I'm extremely disappointed that Alex Kemp has been conned into supporting the political objectives of the commission. He should know better."

If you look a the evidence that the Independent Expert Group (which Prof. Kemp was a member) gave to the Calman Commission they concluded that though revenue from oil would fluctuate based on changes in price that this could be mitigated by using borrowing powers during periods of low prices and when prices are high the windfall could be invested in an Oil Fund.

If it was devolved, Oil and Gas revenue would comprise about 20% of the Scottish Governments Budget. Other Governments such as Alberta in Canada are much more dependant on Oil and Gas revenue and have done just fine using the method recommended by the Independent Group Of Experts.

Calman however seems to have come to his own conclusions.


170

sam the god,

15/06/2009 14:45:47
well the mortons kid did not stand a chance in life no doubt he would have died of an overdose had he lasted longer

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4595962.stm
171

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 14:48:16
201
KampungHighlander

"Calman however seems to have come to his own conclusions."

Or the conclusions he was told to arrive at. Who trusts this unionist contrivance?

172

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 14:48:50
#198 cu

'Raving Loony Green Giant Party cyber-masterdebater', please. A term I vainly hope to elevate to the mainstream media.
173

Mèths,

15/06/2009 14:53:50
Would airguns be banned at the fairground?
174

hoblar,

15/06/2009 14:57:17
The calman commission is only making unionist based and approved opinions (recommendations) to a dead in the water labour party in Westminster, a political party on the wane and due to be given the boot soon.

Labour, and the unpopular unionists (in Scotland at least) are far from being in any position to claim that they are with Scottish public opinion on how Scotland's Parliament should move forward.


175

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 15:02:06
206
Rab The Ranter™

"Next he will be banning catapults and mums and dads from buying a packet of fags, OR EVEN WORSE, maybes a bottle of wine for their Sunday dinner."

Given your propensity for wetting yourself over things you dementedly imagine might happen, latex underwear must be a boon to you.

176

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 15:07:18
209
Rab The Ranter™

Looks like you might need to double-up on those latex pants.

177

dude,

wishaw 15/06/2009 15:07:52
How can anyone be so thick as to believe this nonsense, oil revenue between 1 and 12 billion.

Yes the price of oil went down to $40 a barrel but did the price at the pumps come down?

Its like 70% of all the fuel sales in Scotland is a tax take, do they think we are all stupid and listen to the likes of the tin man an obvious BNP supporting cretin who hates his country in the same way Gordon Brown does ie. the man who could not even admit he comes from Scotland "im from north britain"

Forget this tosh and lets have a referendum, but first a General Election, England will vote the tories in no brainer, Scotland wakes up to David Cameron and decides to vote yes, done

vote SNP the only party looking after Scotlands interests

178

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 15:09:38
210
Rab The Ranter™

Seems you have already forgotten the demented rant about banning catapults etc. Perhaps that's a blessing. Poor soul!

179

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 15:15:15
215
Rab The Ranter™

So tell us, moist and malodorous one, all that you know of the Scottish government's plans to "ban" wine with dinner.

180

Allan(handofgod137),

15/06/2009 15:18:50
#145 Electric hermit, Judging by the frequency and number of your posts, you are either unemployed, or a troll employed by the gnats to bleat the party line. This seems to hold true for the majority of pro gnat posters on these and other boards.
181

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 15:21:19
217
Allan(handofgod137)

"...you are either unemployed, or a troll employed by the gnats [sic]..."

Wrong on both counts. But I suspect being wrong is something you've had ample opportunity to become accustomed to.

182

Marga,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 15:27:22
201 Kampung Highlander - do you remember how a few weeks ago Kemp's line on oil revenue was leaked as a "conclusion" of the report, and has now hastily been discounted? Someone obviously didn't like it.

How much pressure is being applied to this committee? Will we ever find out? I think that a view of the internal paperwork and submissions received might be more interesting than the report itself. Is it available for public scrutiny?
183

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 15:30:20
The CC is full of fudges to placate the unionist parties. It is not about fairness in the relationship between Scotland and England.

Again the elephant in the room is that it will have to go to a referendum.
184

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 15:33:02
219 It will be interesting what comes out in the wash over the next two weeks, I wonder if the expert group have signed a confidenality agreement or embargo for a set time?

I've downloaded the report and will go through it and bypass the usual guff these things contain.
185

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 15:34:33
220
Tormod

"Again the elephant in the room is that it will have to go to a referendum."

Correct. But a referendum based on Calman will exclude the independence option.

186

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 15:36:28
222 The interesting thing is how they will try and justify that to the public at large.

Especially after "Bring it on".
187

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 15:42:04
#220 Tormod

Will the referendum include the 'automatic rifle training for schoolgirls' option supported by some of the governing party's members, or will it be restricted to airguns?
188

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 15:42:33
222 Interesting article I remembered from last year written by the labour love machine Kenny Farquhason

http://tinyurl.com/ls3xwu
189

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 15:43:51
226 TM when / if the referendum is debated in parliament petition them for that option to be included.
190

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 15:48:57
225 The very mechanics that the SNP wanted to have to implement the LIT, we were told were not possible because HMRC doesn't do that thing!

Along comes CC and hey presto no problemo matey.

The mechanics in the assigned revenues do not make sense.
191

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 15:49:04
224
Tormod

"The interesting thing is how they will try and justify that to the public at large."

They will claim legitimacy for Calman, of course. But only the blinkered ideological unionists will fall for it.

192

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 15:51:05
#228 Tormod

Put together with The Great Deer Cull, it could make up for all those PE lessons lost through flogging the playing fields off to Tesco.
193

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 15:59:06
227
Tormod

It is interesting how relevant that article is now, even after six months. The only thing that has changed in that time is that support for the BLP in Scotland has plummeted, while SNP support has soared. Which makes Kenny Farquharson's warnings to the BLP all the more urgent.

If they try to deny a referendum or, worse, contrive a referendum without the independence option, the backlash will be far more severe than even Farquharson supposes.

194

puskas,

East kilbride 15/06/2009 15:59:16
Hi nice to post again... Trying for a week and being denied. Anyway..

The Calman committee have came to their own conclusion on a package that in my opinion will lead Scotland and all its people whatever colour further down the road to independence.
If a referendum is denied to the people and this guff is accepted by a vote at Holyrood by the Labour / Tory / Libdums alliance the vast majority of citizens will never forgive them, and it will show at the next Holyrood elections. The Scottish National Party are in a win, win situ.

The dark horse's here are the Libdums the greens and Margo.

The SNP cannot in my opinion accept this package in total. The Scottish people will by majority not accept the Calman proposals. The majority if not allowed a say by referendum will back the SNP in droves at the next Holyrood parliement Elections..
Of course we will see this effect the next GE as the SNP win anything up to 30/35 seats.

Of course we shall have the referendum on Independance.

I was speaking to an old gentleman from the Garngad, Glasgow today. Voted Labour all his days and said never again, my vote will be for Alex Salmond and the SNP. A breath of fresh air.

Full Fiscal Autonomy leading to an Independent Country and nothing less.
195

The Tin Man,

15/06/2009 15:59:30
#229 Spook

Indeed - there should be a referendum about it.
196

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 16:01:02
232 The red deer population does need to be maintained to help equilibrium with the habitiat and environment.

231 Item 8 in the executive summary is a hoot, apparently taxes on oil and gas can fall and rise dependent on fluctuating prices.

The same is true for income tax, depending on how the economy is performing. So what is the difference Mr Calman?

They will and try and push this for all it is worth, but they have fallen into the SNP bear pit.
197

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 15/06/2009 16:01:31
#202 Sam the Dog

"well the mortons kid did not stand a chance in life no doubt he would have died of an overdose had he lasted longer"

The URL links to an article about how the Mortons got busted for selling small amounts of Marijuana, to support their own pot habit.

So are you trying to claim that the Baby would have eventually OD on cannabis?

That would have been very unique, since in the 5,000 years that humans have been known to use cannabis their is not one single recorded case of an overdose.

But then again Sam based on your previous posts you have never let common sense get in the way of an argument you where trying to make.
198

Maurice,

15/06/2009 16:13:13
SNP this is getting boring now. Stop banning stuff that ordinary people dont have a problem with in the rest of the world. Start treating your sick society and the problems will slowly wane. drugs, alchohol, ciggarettes, fatty foods, pellet guns, catapults, knives .................. every country has these but the people are who cause the problems
199

KampungHighlander,

15/06/2009 16:15:13
#219 Marga,

Yes you can see all the documents online at:

http://www.commissiononscottishdevolution.org.uk/papers.php

I particularly enjoyed reading the submission by David Cairns, who would be my MP if I still lived in Greenock, whining how things where so much better before the SNP got in when the Scottish Government would just do what their told.
200

Guy Wersh,

Eccy Byde 15/06/2009 16:19:24
"the Scottish Variable Rate of income tax should
be replaced by a new Scottish rate of income tax, collected
by HMRC,"

The HMRC have already stated that they would not comply with this and Lab said it wasn't possible..............
201

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 16:24:53
240 You spotted that as well. So LIT collection is bad, SVR collection is good!! They honestly must think many Scots have there heids buttoned up!
202

dunedin bully wee 1877,

15/06/2009 16:26:54
230 Tormod,

I agree and am glad that someone else sees these issues as I do.

The civil servant who put his name to the HMRC statement that it was impossible to devise a system to collect LIT should now be brought in front of the Scottish Parliament to explain why it would now however be possible to collect the “Calman” tax.

It would be fun to watch that performance.
203

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 15/06/2009 16:38:46
Rab The Ranter

"Next he will be banning catapults and mums and dads from buying a packet of fags, OR EVEN WORSE, maybes a bottle of wine for their Sunday dinner."

My personal hope is the next thing that gets banned is Guy Fawkes bonfires.

Replace this alien holiday with a revival of Halloween.
204

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 15/06/2009 16:47:17
242 I think we all know that the refusal to collect LIT wasn't a technical but a political decision.

Each year the finance act has changes that HMRC have to implement, so we all know it's a fudge to suggest otherwise.

The changes proposed by Calman are more technical challenging than LIT.
205

KampungHighlander,

15/06/2009 16:54:40
#241 and 242

"RECOMMENDATION 5.19: There should be scope for Scottish Ministers, with the agreement of the Scottish Parliament, to propose changes to the Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit systems (as they apply in Scotland) when these are connected to devolved policy changes, and for the UK Government – if it agrees – to make those changes by suitable regulation."

It will be interesting to see if this clause reignites the drive for LIT, or if Gordon kicks it into the long grass.
206

dunedin bully wee 1877,

15/06/2009 16:58:58
244 Tormod

Quite so!

However, they can hardly claim now that there is any technical impediment to the collection of LIT when the SNP Government re-introduce this proposal following the next Scottish general election.

Calman has inadvertently paved the way for this much welcome reform of Local Government funding, despite this being outwith his remit.

What a delicious irony!
207

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 16:59:42
243
KampungHighlander

"Replace this alien holiday with a revival of Halloween"

Better still, Independence Day!

208

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 17:04:37
So they were lying all the time about local income tax.

Do they really beleive that we have the collective memories of a fruitfly ?
209

Geomac 1,

Scotland 15/06/2009 17:09:14
Dear Kenny MacAskill
This is a request to be allowed to go to the toilet. I would appreciate a quick response as matters are rather pressing.
Your obedient servant and inferior
geomac 1
210

Mèths,

15/06/2009 17:13:23
Does this mean we can expect a LIT thread tomorrow?
Please don't let it be so.
211

,

15/06/2009 17:13:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
212

Mèths,

15/06/2009 17:14:42
249

"This is a request to be allowed to go to the toilet."

If it would stop you posting p¡sh then fine.
213

Geomac 1,

Scotland 15/06/2009 17:20:11
#252 meths
I have to laugh! Relative to the garbage posted here by the snp apologists (and possibly activists?) my post is genuine and constructive satire. If you'd like an explanation of the meaning of the word satire just let me know!!
214

hoblar,

15/06/2009 17:21:40
"Again the elephant in the room is that it will have to go to a referendum."

Correct. But a referendum based on Calman will exclude the independence option.'

Ignoring Independence as an option will depend on how many, and the politics of the politicians (either non-unionist or unionist) that Scottish voters are willing to send to westminster.

I find it a highly unlikely scenario that calman's mickey mouse tinkering will be subject to a referendum when all they require is to be forced upon Scotland by the opposition unionists via their big brother parties in Westminster.

That was the idea of calman; to give us the union version of political progression of devolution, however whenever these recommendations can be incorporated, there will be an intervening period where a Westminster and Holyrood election is likely to occur, and the idea of the 'nod' being given to the person who detests the existence of the Scottish Parliament in the first place, (Gordon brown) won't be the case by next year.

The LAST thing the opposition unionists ever wanted was to have a debate about devolution, the scant proposals for change among the tories and liberals at the 2007 ele ctions are one minor thing, but Labour campaigned for non change, and campaigned for the union....and lost.

Since their defeat at the Scottish elections, labour have become far less popular in Scotland, losing their first uk elections (for Europe) to the SNP, who have increased their vote in scotland from 18% to 31% in four years according to a new poll.

Therefore, the actual ability of outgoing labour to reflect Scottish aspirations as far as the Scottish Parliament is concerned has decreased, the only reason we got calman was a desperate unionist kak handedness for the narrowest of political reasons.

The status quo was only an option in the deluded minds of labour westminster and Holyrood until the SNP became the Scottish Government, and they still fail to take heed of the political sophis
215

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 17:23:07
As much I am opposed to bans and restrictions on liberty in general this will be a popular move. Neds really shouldn't be able to just walk into shops and get their hands on airguns. Most people agree with that. It won't hurt the SNP because sadly there are more folk concerned about manic neds than there are people who use airguns for their legitimate purpose.
216

dunedin bully wee 1877,

15/06/2009 17:24:51
253 Geomac

Be careful that if you start out laughing that you do not “burst” and cause some inconvenience not only to yourself, but to all those around you.
Particularly so to the individual who would be required to clean up your mess.
217

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 17:26:48
249
Geomac 1

"...and inferior"

You got that bit right.

Count yourself among the dullards who are incapable of discussing what is actually happening but must, instead, launch into some demented rant about what their diseased imaginations tell them is is happening.

218

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 17:29:16
253
Geomac 1

"...my post is genuine and constructive satire."

You flatter yourself.

219

Geomac 1,

Scotland 15/06/2009 17:32:52
#257 - come on EH - even you should be able to construct a logical and sensible argument - it's the resort of the rogue and the scoundrel to have to resort to name calling and personal insults!!
I should have learned by now that sensible and considered argument of SNP dominated blogs is a waste of time and effort
Bye
220

dunedin bully wee 1877,

15/06/2009 17:33:14
258 Electric Hermit

I think that you are being a tad too unkind.

After all, he did manage to spell “satire” correctly.
That is worth at least one point, (out of 100).
221

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 17:33:59
202 that's an outrageous statement you really are one nasty piece of work.
222

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 17:39:03
259
Geomac 1

When you start posting like a grown-up then maybe people will treat you as one.

223

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 17:39:16
179 Your argument is silly.

You ban things - or place restrictions on them - because there is evidence that they pose an unacceptable risk. The fact that you can't eliminate all risk doesn't mean that you shouldn't attempt to minimise it.

The question you need to ask yourself is whether the risk justifies the intrusion on people's liberty. In this case I think it does.



224

dunedin bully wee 1877,

15/06/2009 17:43:48
261 Observer,,

Do not encourage that balloon, ignore him and hopefully he will go away.
225

Mèths,

15/06/2009 17:53:13
geomac

"If you'd like an explanation of the meaning of the word satire just let me know!! "

I know satire. Satire is what your post wasn't. It was duff.
226

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 17:54:30
263 aye you're right I remember him on other threads saying that it was OK to shoot people who had outstayed their visas so I guess he thinks its OK to shoot small children too if their parents smoke weed. I will endeavour to ignore it in the future.
227

Alan B,

15/06/2009 18:03:49
Predictably the BBC web site commenting on Calman is full of anti scottish bile.

228

dunedin bully wee 1877,

15/06/2009 18:04:39
265 Mèths

Come on M, as a former Dominie you can do better than that.

You should have asked the Geomac character for an example of “satire” and then asked why he believed it could be described as thus, followed by contemporary examples of what really does constitute satire.

By the way, what do you have against the principle of LIT?

229

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 18:04:57
#263:

I disaggree mate.

Here's ten possible reasons for banning things. (BTW, the "you" is metaphoric)

1. You are too short-sighted to see the full picture and can only think of things in simplistic terms.

2. You make the assumption that the vast majority of people who own/do something are irresponsible, rather than considering the facts, which are that the MINORITY is irresponsible.

3. You want to be "seen to be doing something" even though what you are doing will have little or no real impact on the problem, and you are too lazy/stupid/blinkered to try to think of something that might work and would target the irresponsible minority.

4. You cannot see that treating people like idiots will actually make them start behaving like idiots.

5. You are naive enough to believe that your ban wouldn't drive the problem underground.

6. You have no consideration for the vast majority of law abiding people.

7. Because you don't fully understand the issues, you assume that no-one else would be capable of doing so.

8. You assume that just because it is possible for someone to do something irresponsible, the vast majority are going to do so.

9. You don't agree with something and rather than being tolerant and repecting the rights of others, you decide that anyone who disagrees with you should suffer.

10. You are a nazi bigot (in the case of the brain-dead smoking ban)

I think that any one of the reasons above is a good enough reason NOT to ban something.

230

Mèths,

15/06/2009 18:05:01
geomac

Mine was better. You mentioned "toilet" and I subtly introduced the word "p¡sh". It too was tongue in cheek.
231

Mèths,

15/06/2009 18:09:05
Bully Wee

"By the way, what do you have against the principle of LIT?"

Absolutely nothing. It's the guff that's posted by the unionists about LIT I get bored with. Let's see what they say tomorrow.
232

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

15/06/2009 18:20:42
Drink Drivers were successfully demonised a generation ago. To further reduce road deaths, speeders and tailgaters need the same treatment. Tinkering with the present blood alcohol limits, will punish those who had a drink yesterday and serve no purpose other than as a revenue raiser and to criminalize people,who are posing no threat to the safety of other road users.

233

Mèths,

15/06/2009 18:31:02
HAGBARD!!!

I thought you were deid!
234

Davy,

15/06/2009 18:40:15
#269 Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head
That was super cool
#209 Rab The Rante, Love the lyrics
The police in Edinburgh want all new lampposts to be fitted with 180 degree CCTV coverage
That is under discussion now.
Not a jot in the paper about that.


235

Mèths,

15/06/2009 18:46:00
I preferred the original Waters lyrics but what the hey.
236

,

15/06/2009 19:00:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
237

Russell M,

Stirling 15/06/2009 19:08:47
Putting another arrow in organised crime's quiver, taking another step toward full blown socialism, the only thing the SNP had going for it was independence, but if this is what we can expect Lord help us. I guess Eck and Co. have been listening to the 'Scots can't run their own lives' lesson so long that he's beginning to believe it. Changing one despotic regime for another is not a step forward. The drug addict that killed Andrew Morton with an air gun got life, but in softly softly Scotland/Britain that only means 13 years. Since the law won't let us punish criminals we turn on objects and their lawful owners. We are the laughing stock of those who love liberty around the world. They are shaking their heads in amazement as Britain's hot burglary and violent assault rates continue to increase (Reginald Baker), having passed the United States rates some years back. Maybe Ann Pearston is right -- better we should live in slavery than make a dog's dinner out of running our own lives and country. http://russcelt.eu/images/Lord_Brit-itch_500w.jpg
238

Mèths,

15/06/2009 19:10:40
"sorting out care homes for the mother-in-law, the usual rich tapestry of life."

Best of luck H.
239

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 19:24:12
280
Russell M

What kind of nutter makes such a nonsensical fuss about a few sensible precautions.

The kind of nutter who has more righteous indignation than they know what to do with.

240

Davy,

15/06/2009 19:33:09
Some awesome comments today
I am well out my depth.
Please
Remember to lock the doors & windows
Or the big black man with the gun will get you.
241

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 19:39:02
284
Rab The Ranter™

"Is it just me..."

Yes. Every body else knows that "High Velocity rifles and shotguns" are subject to stringent licensing restrictions.

242

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 19:43:22
269 As I said I am not normally in favour of making new laws, we have already got too many as it is, but I think there is a reasonable argument for this one.

Your liberty to own an airgun needs to be balanced against the liberties of people not to get shot. There is ample evidence that a minority of people misuse airguns and people are injured - some of them seriously - some of them mortally - as a result.

Is the requirement to own a an airgun sufficient for the state to allow their free circulation ? I would think not. It's a balancing act.

The same as the smoking ban. Is your right to blow cigarette smoke into people's faces when they are at their place of work more important than their right to a safe working environment ? Unfortunately for you the Shops and Factories Acts say that their right to a safe working environment is more important than your right to puff - which is what is really behind it. Employers liability. But again - it's a balancing act.

243

Colkitto,

River Clyde 15/06/2009 19:47:59
When will the unionist parties allow the poeple of Scotland their say on the constitution ?
244

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 19:56:48
284 What is the purpose of airguns Rab ? Farmers and the like use shotguns it's an essential tool for them, and sportsmen use rifles. Is shooting an airgun a sport ? If it is why can't the participants join a rifle club ?

ps not being smart - gen question.
245

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 20:01:02
153:- Electric Hermit

I see you are still not inclined to answer any questions but prefer a good old knee jerk scoff instead!

Lets post it again and see .....

-------------

The Government seems to wish to restrict and ban choices all the way. What will be banned next ? What liberty removed? Can Scotland become any more totalitarian ?

The vast majority of airgun users are very responsible and the current limit of 1 1/2 pints hardly makes you into a drunken bafoon behind the wheel !

The government are treating these new powers like kids they feel they have to tinker and fiddle with them - not to make Scotland a better place but simply to exercise their ego's ....

Labours badge was taxing and banning ... I thought the SNP was different until now. This sadly is just more reinforcement to the fact that it no longer really matters who you vote for you get the same old crud !

No wonder people are sick to the back teeth of politicians.



246

Stan Butler,

15/06/2009 20:04:48

MacKaskill seems to be talking about an outright ban rather than a system of licensing.

So we will be living in a country where you can own a high velocity rifle or a shotgun but not an air rifle.

Where is the logic in that?


247

Nevsky;,

Moscow 15/06/2009 20:05:08
294 Voldermont and Rab#

Go and tell it to the family whose child was killed and see if your mouth are quite so big afterwards.

You would still be in favour of them being legal if your child was killed?
248

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 20:08:07
295 You might have a point there Stan so I'll ask you the same question I asked Rab.

We haven't banned shotguns or rifles because they have a legitimate use, we have instead regulated them.

What use do you put an airgun to which would demand regulation rather than an outright ban ?
249

Nevsky;,

Moscow 15/06/2009 20:08:12
295 Stan#

The logic (not a word usually associated with your limited pot noodle brain) is that these guns have more often than not found their way into of kids, good and bad!

High velocity rifles and shotguns are not something you will see on the schemes really!
250

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

15/06/2009 20:09:25
#292

Taking potshots at passing motor vehicles, people, cats, dogs, birds, rabbits etc.

Pistols, I'm not very sure, impressing your mates most likely, possibly a handy bullying or extortion aid.
251

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

15/06/2009 20:11:49
I posted this elsewhere yesterday but forgot where.

Of what ilk is the SNP?

Lib Dem?
Conservative?
Labour?

Scottish Nationalist Party
252

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 20:12:15
298 Oh yes you do ! But fortunately it is gangsters shooting other gangsters - non combatants are very rarely involved.

I think that's the point about airguns it's the dafties and the weans that use them - to try and ape the real gangsters.
253

Nevsky;,

Moscow 15/06/2009 20:14:28
Nice to see that Brown 'the great honest presbyterian' has today announced the enqiry into Iraq...pity that it will:

a) held behind closed doors
b) committee of hand-picked grandees are being appointed ; and that
b) the verdict will not be announced until after the election

Brown really a despicable human being....more concerned with his prospects than the truth and the lives of the soldiers and the innocents killed...what a p*g!
254

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 20:16:31
299 Not exactly an essential liberty then in your view.
255

Phil C,

15/06/2009 20:18:32
#302 He'll never learn. It's time to shoot him and his dishonest cnuts-for-friends!
256

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 20:22:26
303 It's not only one death Cynicus - if that were the case then the SNP could be accused of grandstanding. It's been a problem in the schemes for years.

I am fairly certain if there was a demand for target shooting the Council would put on facilities for it - they jump at anything that will divert boys from unadulterated neddery.

257

Stan Butler,

15/06/2009 20:24:02
297 Observer

'What use do you put an airgun to which would demand regulation rather than an outright ban ?'


As far as I recall there are already restrictions in place for the sale of air guns over a particular capacity.

To answer your question a lot of people use air rifles to shoot rabbits and other vermin. They're ideal for the job and a lot less lethal than a shotgun or a rifle. Kids who are too young to use a shotgun also use them. Air rifles are also cheaper than shotguns or rifles. An outright ban would mean people probably trading up to a full firearm which is hardly what we want, is it?
258

Stan Butler,

15/06/2009 20:29:44
298 Nevsky;


Surely you must realise how illogical your post is.

Let me spell it out for you.

The reason why there are more air guns around than full firearms is because they aren't subject to the same licensing restrictions.

If their supply was regulated on an equivalent basis to full firearms then their availability would be reduced to the same level as full firearms.
259

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

15/06/2009 20:30:14
No, but most in circulation are old and rather feeble...no match for a decent catapult and a pocketful marbles or steel ball bearings, which can be fired through the glass of a phone box and out the other side.

I think I would prefer draconian punishment for the discharge of firearms outwith safe designated areas and a large dose of well intentioned social engineering on urban youth.
260

Phil C,

15/06/2009 20:35:19
Back on topic, we used to shoot birds (feathered kind!) with a friend's air rifle. It was good fun at the time, but not very clever thinking back.

A ban is all well and good, but is it necessary? I would hope that anyone who shoots a child with an air gun gets severely dealt with in any case. Surely someone who buys alcohol for 14 year olds, or sells it to them, or buys cigarettes for a wee kid outside a shop will be punished accordingly. Surely those who can't behave properly through drunkeness can be dealt with through the law.

We need the SNP like never before, but we don't need McAskill's draconian banning and censorship powers. These lose the SNP countless votes.
261

eeyore,

looking for a place to be free 15/06/2009 20:38:54
Yep. Whether you believe that weapons laws are just the government fear of its citizens. . .excuse me, subjects. . .concealed in the guise of "safety concerns" - or you believe that criminals and those determined to break the law will be stopped by laws banning weapons, when they aren't stopped by the laws that they intended to break anyway - or you believe that people are too stupid and inept to own weapons without hurting themselves or their loved ones -

The truth is that banning weapons only applies to those who respect the law and obey it regardless of whether or not they agree with it.

Part of the irony involved with the people who want to ban these in the name of safety is that they are the same people who want to run the rest of your life because they feel they can do a better job of it that you. And they are the same people who believe in civil disobediance against laws they feel to be bad - so how would they feel about civil disobediance against gun laws or the other laws they support. Yeah, these same people who would sit with Ghandi on the road, would scream for the government to send in the troops and shoot to kill anyone who opposes their laws.

As for Kenny the Ninny - Let's let the murderers and rapists out on holiday, but by God don't let a law abiding citizen have a pellet pistol!
262

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 20:39:20
307 If they are necessary for the control of vermin then presumably vermin controllers should be consulted. I am presuming there will be a consultation period there usually is.

I am not convinced about the other bit 'though. Presumably if they are too young for a rifle these kids need to be supervised. Why not in an organised setting - that again is something that the presumably concerned parents of these little shooters could raise.

263

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 20:46:06
311 Good Lord it's big Chuck Heston come back to life. Did they ever prise that gun out of your cold dead hand then ?
264

eeyore,

considering 15/06/2009 20:47:17
I have been considering what I support in the politics of Scotland. Just like the days of Charlie Stuart when half the country thought they were better off with the English telling them what to do, and the other half of the country wanted to be free of English rule but just stood around wondering how - Scottish politics are all over the board and none seems to make sense.

I liked many of the ideas of the SNP when they first popped up. But their ideas on laws and protecting the common good are completely insane. They believe in draconian laws, and as many of them as they can think up, against the common person going about their lives - but then they believe in feeling sorry for anyone who commits a crime (unless against one of their population control laws) and being as easy on the real criminals as they can.

I believe that if the SNP has control and gets their way, rapists and murderers will get a couple weeks of community service per conviction, and the common person who gets caught with a bottle of Ale or a pellet pistol will get 20 years without any parole.
265

Stan Butler,

15/06/2009 20:52:05


Surely they'd be better off banning cars.

Far more children are killed by cars than by air rifles.


266

eeyore,

Just trying to live my own life 15/06/2009 20:52:21
#313 - Spoken like a subject.

No, my fingers aren't dead, they are very much alive and holding on to my freedom. You may be incapable of possesing a firearm or other weapon without killing yourself or someone else, but I am perfectly capable of using and possesing a firearm without harming another.

The only time I've ever hurt or killed anyone is for the government. Outside of that I've possessed and used firearms and blades since I was 6, and have not hurt anyone.
267

eeyore,

without interfering in anyone else's 15/06/2009 20:54:15
#315

But cars aren't a threat to the government. And armed citizen is far more dangerous to the government than and unarmed subject or a car.
268

Stan Butler,

15/06/2009 21:01:08
312 Observer


I don't think you have any idea of how much more dangerous shotguns and rifles are compared to air guns.

No serious criminal goes armed with an air gun. They'd be a laughing stock (without the smoking barrel) amongst the criminal fraternity.

The inevitable consequence of banning air guns will be an increase in the number of people owning shotguns and rifles. That's more serious weaponry that can fall into the hands of criminals.

269

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

15/06/2009 21:09:32
All of the recent posters must have read my post at 300 and have elected not to answer because;

A) I am regarded as an English interloper with little or no right to comment on Scottish Affairs despite the fact that WHEN you Secede it will cause untold Chaos down here in't South!

or

B) You don't like the Question because you Don't Know the answer.

or

C) You don't like the Question because you Don't Like the answer - not with that big fat word NATIONALIST sitting slap in the Middle.

or

D) You're just ignorant.

Interesting!!
270

Observer,,

Glasgow 15/06/2009 21:12:39
318 I am very aware that no criminal goes armed with an airgun Stan - see post 301. The criminal fraternity can get their hands on whatever they want. The law is no barrier to them.

But the criminal fraternity don't generally shoot two year olds as it would bring far too much heat onto them.

It's diddies having access to potentially lethal weapons that bothers me.
271

Saul Tyre,

15/06/2009 21:23:45
What's all this talk about cross-border problems? If airguns are outlawed in Scotland and a Scot is caught with one, he will have broken the law and will be charged. Any Englishman caught bringing an airgun into Scotland will be treated in the same way. So what's the big problem? Is this the only frontier in the world today?
272

Barney Thomson,

Reading 15/06/2009 21:29:18
290 Cynicus

If you acccept that problems can be caused by the free availablity of dangerous weapons, as clearly many people do, there are a number of solutions which can be considered, including -
1. continued free availablity (if you think there is no problem)
2. total bans (if you think the problem is otherwise without solution)
3. various levels of control (if you think about it)
- So it is a bit more than a dichotomy.

I do not know how extreme your libertarian views are but accept your right to hold them. I prefer examination of evidence and considered thought to instinct.
273

CANUCK,

Toronto 15/06/2009 21:35:07
In Canada we do have very strict controls on guns especially hand guns and automatic wepons,the population at large is not concerend at all with this law and criminals only have to cross the border to find whatever they want and bring it back.It is impossible for the police or authorities to control this and it is only by luck or chance do they uncover wepons.

On the other hand our driving and drinking laws are very strict and heavily enforced - zoro tolerence in many cities - nobody seems to mind this law at all and by having a designated driver it certainly does not stop us going out to enjoy ourselves

So you can have a law but if public are not behind it or if the law cannot be enforced strong enought it can be pretty meaningless
274

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 21:37:04
294
Voldemort

When some cretin starts referring to the Scottish government as "totalitarian" they forfeit all credibility.

275

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 21:44:20
295
Stan Butler

"MacKaskill seems to be talking about an outright ban rather than a system of licensing."

It's politics. MacAskill knows he will have to make concessions. He will have to retreat from whatever his initial position is. So he demands more than he is prepared to settle for.

I would envisage air weapons being brought fully within firearms legislation. Perhaps with a "banded" licensing system for different classes of weapon. Something similar to drug legislation.

276

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/06/2009 21:44:58
On the subject of Calman generally, I would have liked him to go further, but this is yet another step towards independence. The Unionists seem oblivious to this, Goldie and Gray being the best examples.
277

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 21:51:28
324:-

On what basis is telling the truth 'forfeiting credibility' and spouting your nonsense a basis for retaining it ? You must know somewhere in that feeble heart of yours that some of us still beleive in freedom and common sense. Totalitarian 'bans' are not the answer and anyone with more than one brain cell should be able to cotton on to that! If the SNP go down this road they are no better than the disgusting Labour party and it is they, the SNP, who stand to lose credibility.


296: - I would want the PERSON responsible brought to justice and given a very long jail sentence not to hold EVERY person who has an airgun responsible. Does that sound unreasonable ?


315:- A very good point - but they only want to ban things that make them look good in the eyes of the sheep that bleat their freedoms away bit by bit.
278

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 21:52:23
300
Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!

"I posted this elsewhere yesterday but forgot where.

Of what ilk is the SNP?

Lib Dem?
Conservative?
Labour?

Scottish Nationalist Party"

There is no such thing as the "Scottish Nationalist Party". The Scottish National Party's policy base is moderate left-of-centre in the European social democrat tradition.

279

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 22:00:30
303
Cynicus in Exile

"...my hackles rise at any politician grandstanding by riding a populist bandwagon..."

Your hackles appear to be on a hair-trigger. And if you were not so ill-informed you might be aware that the SNP has been campaigning for stricter control of air weapons for some years now.

280

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 22:09:39
329 - Quote

"Scottish Nationalist Party"

There is no such thing as the "Scottish Nationalist Party". The Scottish National Party's policy base is moderate left-of-centre in the European social democrat tradition."

----

Listen lad when you start to split hairs you have nothing to say!

Blindly leading us into an undemocratic European straitjacket is a fundamental reason NOT to vote SNP ! (Or for that matter Labour, Lib Dem, Tory or Green!).
If you truly want independence for Scotland then at least have the balls for it to be truly independent and not bowing to Brussels whim! Anything less is a sham and a lie as you are selling slavery to westminster for slavery to the EU.
281

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 22:13:43
306
Observer

"It's not only one death Cynics..."

What we are seeing is characteristic reactionary knee-jerking devoid of any reasoning. The problem is minimised and the response exaggerated so as to justify the orgy of self-righteous indignation.

In the aftermath of little Andrew Morton's tragic death Scotland on Sunday reported that 3 people had been killed and 1,154 injured over the previous eight years. When one considers these weapons being used to threaten and intimidate in the course of crime, the picture is much worse.

Evidently, Cynicus and the rest of the Angry Villagers find this toll perfectly acceptable. I do not.

282

Alan B,

15/06/2009 22:19:22
#connaughtboy

It is an assumption that the calman fiscal recommendations will be implemented.

Brown is unlikely to implement the recommendations before the election. They can then campaign that they will grant these powers at the general election next yr.

Will the tories when/if they win implement the changes.

1)it will not be their priority on election for their legislative program. As such it will probably be pushed back a few yrs by them even if they do want to progress with these changes.

2)The tories has already said that barnett should be replaced. Calman is advocating the barnett formula remains minus the taxes to be devolved. So are they going to implement tax changes advocated by calman that they have said they do not believe in.

Following on from that with Brown away and an english labour leader, along with a south of england dominated tory party they may just focus alot more on englands issues regarding devolution than scotlands.

283

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 22:21:33
310
Phil C

"Surely someone who buys alcohol for 14 year olds, or sells it to them, or buys cigarettes for a wee kid outside a shop will be punished accordingly."

You draw a comparison with cigarettes and alcohol apparently oblivious to the fact that these are subject to legal controls much as many of us would like to see applied to air weapons.

284

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 22:25:58
314
eeyore

"They believe in draconian laws, and as many of them as they can think up, against the common person going about their lives - but then they believe in feeling sorry for anyone who commits a crime (unless against one of their population control laws) and being as easy on the real criminals as they can."

If you are ever in the vicinity of reality, do pop in for a visit.

285

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 22:28:23
314
eeyore

"I believe that if the SNP has control and gets their way, rapists and murderers will get a couple weeks of community service per conviction, and the common person who gets caught with a bottle of Ale or a pellet pistol will get 20 years without any parole."

The tragedy is that you probably do believe this brainsick balderdash.

286

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 22:30:30
315
Stan Butler

"Surely they'd be better off banning cars.

Far more children are killed by cars than by air rifles."

Or maybe just subject air weapons to a level of control similar to that which applies to motor vehicles.

287

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 22:33:03
316
eeyore

"...I am perfectly capable of using and possesing a firearm without harming another."

Then you should have no trouble obtaining a licence. So quit your pathetic whining.

288

Alan B,

15/06/2009 22:34:37
The reason behind having rules over air guns devolved is to let scotland choose the appropriate laws via the scottish parliament.

Scotland has a separate legal system and a devolved criminal justice system so it would be silly for regulation of guns to be done by westminster. Just as it is daft for drugs to be done by westminster.


For those advocating a liberatrian view would they take the same line with drug policy and legalise all drugs.

Regarding the snp remember none of the 3 uk parties are libertarian in westminster or sp.
289

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 22:35:25
317
eeyore

"But cars aren't a threat to the government. And armed citizen is far more dangerous to the government than and unarmed subject or a car."

Wow! It IS the ghost of Charlton Heston. Complete with cold dead brain.

290

PointOf View,

Bonnie Scotland 15/06/2009 22:36:14
315 Voldemort,Edinburgh
Absolutely spot on! The state rules or intends to one way or the other, if they can get away with it. I agree with the majority of your post friend, but on a personal level i believe we need the SNP initially, to lead us to independence. Once there of course, they should do what they have promised, listening to the people, that would be a good start before legislating our common freedoms away. Although I’m currently an SNP supporter they have suggested a few authoritarian things recently which concern me.
291

PointOf View,

Bonnie Scotland 15/06/2009 22:38:04
Sorry 342 was meant for 328
292

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 22:39:31
318
Stan Butler

"The inevitable consequence of banning air guns will be an increase in the number of people owning shotguns and rifles."

First off, air weapons are not going to be banned.

And you throw out the word "inevitable" but omit to demonstrate by evidence or reasoned argument why controlling possession of air weapons would have the consequence you claim.

293

Alan B,

15/06/2009 22:44:38
#PointOf View

"they should do what they have promised, listening to the people, that would be a good start before legislating our common freedoms away"

Problem with that statement is it appears that the public at large support control of air guns and supported a ban.

Problem with a political party listening to the people is who. Those that shout loudest?

After independence it would be much better if the parties did not follow the blair line of trying to run the country by focus group trying to say what they think the public want to hear. And actually say what they believe and ask the public to vote for their beliefs.
294

Teratopside,

Grampian 15/06/2009 22:45:10
As a member of one of the many airgun clubs round Scotland that use airguns and regularly compete in national competitions and events I find the proposed changes ignorant at best.

Many of our members not only shoot targets but provide a public service controlling vermin and I have yet to meet one of the urbanite "minority" that abuse airgins.

Banning them is no solution as those who need them will have to upscale to full on firearms, I for one am happy with the 12ft lb energy allowed for my sport.

Banning hand guns had no effect as it only removed it offending artefact from legal users who were never the issue in fact hand gun crime now is worse than it ever was.

The press are doing a good number on the shooting public drumming up hysteria, calling for all the "killers" to be brought to task, before you all go casting stones and banning our sport I suggest you come meet us.

I would love for Scotland to have its independence and freedom from the lands south but so long as our government behaves like petulant ban mungers lord help us we are not fit to rule this fine nation that is Scotland.

Word to the wise, be proportionate in all things dont let the press pull your strings.
295

PointOf View,

Bonnie Scotland 15/06/2009 22:46:26
314 eeyore,considering
Ha ha, actually i agree with you, but i'm not sure about your last paragraph!:-)
296

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 22:46:45
328
Voldemort

"On what basis is telling the truth 'forfeiting credibility'..."

We are not talking about "truth". We are talking about your inane ranting.

The cretin who describes the Scottish government as "totalitarian" not only forfeits all credibility they also earn the contempt due to one who seeks to diminish the suffering of those who do live under the heel of truly repressive regimes.

297

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 22:49:35
331
Voldemort

Notwithstanding your brainless gibbering, there is still no such thing as the Scottish Nationalist Party. It is called the Scottish National Party.

298

IainGlasgow,

15/06/2009 22:53:55
#323

Is it not true that you also have significantly less gun crime in Canada than they have in the USA by something like a factor of 20 despite a similar rate of gun ownership?

If so the conclusion is that the problem is culture and attitude to guns and that's what needs to be tackled. After all guns don't kill people. People kill people.

However in Scotland alcohol (and drugs) is a much bigger problem and there are probably alot more alcohol related deaths than air gun related deaths.

Yes air guns need to be tightly regulated but an outright ban is little more than political window dressing.
299

PointOf View,

Bonnie Scotland 15/06/2009 22:55:11
310 Phil C
"We need the SNP like never before, but we don't need McAskill's draconian banning and censorship powers. These lose the SNP countless votes".

Maybe Liebours McAskill's acting under the Magabe Broons orders. You know the kind, infiltrate and separate. Mind you AS must be going along with it!
300

Alan B,

15/06/2009 22:58:04
#Teratopside

Noone is against gun clubs where guns can be controlled. Or farmers although they probably would not use air guns.

The question is how to stop the common use of air guns particulary amongst youngsters. I remember when i was at school 20yrs ago air guns being brought to school. (was not a bad school).

When that baby got killed the media also high lighted the fact that the emergency services eg fire engines were routinely shot at.

The fact is unless you live in the country their is not safe place to use air guns other than gun clubs.

It was disconcerting when i was out for a run along the canal (a yr or 2 ago) when you have a couple of youngsters walking along with an air rifle.

301

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 22:58:45
347
Teratopside

"Banning them is no solution as those who need them will have to upscale to full on firearms..."

FFS! AIRGUNS ARE NOT GOING TO BE BANNED!

Just try thinking about it for a second and you will realise this for yourself.

If you are as responsible as you claim then you will have no trouble obtaining a licence. Just don't let on you were dumb enough to believe everything you read in the papers.

302

Desmo,

Lumphinnans 15/06/2009 23:11:42
And so, the Great Calman has spoken unto the restless Jocks.

And he has pronounced that we should all be grateful that while Labour are offering a Drumstick, the Tories would make us do with a Mojo, but those lovely Lib-dems would give us all a Flump.

But the SNP bloke pipes up "We think the Scots deserve a Curly-Wurly and we want them to have one".

"SHUT-IT" shouted Calman !

"Look, Ye can have a Mojo AND a Drumstick"

"Or even a Flump and a Drumstick"

"There micht even be times when you`ll get a Mojo, a Flump AND a Drumstick, but don`t you DARE come in here and ask me for a Curly Wurly"

"Curly-Flamin-Wurly"

"Away an GEEZE PEACE"
303

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 23:14:39
342

The SNP have been a breath of fresh air in Scotland compared with the Labour Parties arrogant, corrupt and abusive assumtion of power.

I merely point out, and humbly submit, that if the SNP lead us to 'independence' and subscribe immediately to the EU beaurocrats undemocratic authority that 'independence' is not true. Moreover that Scotland becomes even more subservient, as an even smaller cog in an even larger machine, to Brussels that it was to Westminster and that independence is independence like a prisoner has the independence over what they do in jail!

I would like to see a 'properly' independent Scotland where the Scottish people decide their destiny and policy where NO external forces tell us what to do and how to decide it - that is 'proper' democracy and 'proper' freedom.

In short we, the people, need to lobby the SNP into proper debate and demand of them a referendum of all within our borders to vote on the subject of Europe. Anything less does not serve democracy we must have an absolute commitment to a referendum on a matter so dire in consequence.

My fear is that the SNP are selling out to Europe and replacing one dictatorship for another.

Airgun bans and being banned from your car after half a pint of Guinness are symptomatic of the SNP following not leading. It is the difference between electing lions who fight for your true independence or sheep that tell you what to do!
304

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 15/06/2009 23:28:08
349-

If you want truly repressive regimes then just look to the SNP's Europe policy currently - do you think for one minute, my dim witted friend, that you are getting 'freedom' ? Only a fool would think so. Saddam was more democratically elected than the EU !!!

354:- If airguns are not going to be banned then let them come out like 'men' as say so and/or tell us what they propose as opposed to their knee jerk reactions that you are so fond of ! - subject to the Scottish peoples approval rather than their political prostitution!

I see that you are perhaps a pro-Scotland fella with a very little brain but I am not sure that you know what commitment is. I am a pro-Scotland fella but have utter commitment to not seeing such an important step being taken without the assurance that we are not swapping one form of slavery for another! I wish you were clever enough to see that - which is not asking much!
305

PointOf View,

Bonnie Scotland 15/06/2009 23:44:21
356 Voldemort,Edinburgh
Yes, again i agree with the vast majority of your post. Indeed i have said on numerous occasions, “what’s the point of swapping a Westminster dictatorship for one in Europe / Brussels”. Independence must mean just that, not subservient to other nations. I worry about the SNP’s plans regarding Europe, especially when I witness their readiness to implement laws which further erode our common freedoms. Laws which appear to be based on punishing the mass for the actions of the few. It really amounts to control. I’m sure a number of fellow SNP supporters have concerns but can’t trade our bid for independence. The other issues will just have to be dealt with post the pending GE’s. No simple answers.
306

Satire above all,

15/06/2009 23:45:32

Tormod<<<<

Hi! With regard to your post, do you think this could be challenged within the confines of a court of law? Do you think it would be worthwile consulting a lawyer with knowledge of Constitutional Law on this matter? I would certainly be willing to give it a try if the answer was yes.
307

Alan B,

15/06/2009 23:50:21
Glen Campbell was a joke on newsnight again. He simply cannot help showing his political colours and refuses to ask basic questions.

308

Electric Hermit,

15/06/2009 23:53:14
358
Voldemort

"...just look to the SNP's Europe policy currently..."

Try to focus, fool. The topic is control of airguns.

"Saddam was more democratically elected than the EU !!!"

Whoops! There goes Voldemort! Right over the edge.

Much as I enjoy making a fool of you, I have to admit that you are making a far better job of it than I ever could. Carry on!

309

PointOf View,

Bonnie Scotland 15/06/2009 23:54:08
346 Allen B
Hi Allen,
"Problem with that statement is it appears that the public at large support control of air guns and supported a ban".

With all due respect I hear what your saying but on who's authority do we have information? However, I am up for asking the public to vote for their beliefs as perhaps thats the only way of truly establish the facts.
310

Alan B,

15/06/2009 23:54:11
#Voldemort

"If airguns are not going to be banned then let them come out like 'men' as say so and/or tell us what they propose as opposed to their knee jerk reactions that you are so fond of"

is it not you that is showing knee jerk reactions. the proposals from calman have not been devolved yet and are unlikely to be for about a yr atleast. if and when legislation is put forward we will see the details. And that is not going to be for a while.

311

Alan B,

16/06/2009 00:01:58
#PointOf View

How would you test public opinion?

Referendum?

Personally i would support referendum questions attached to elections similar to the US.

Maybe after independence scotland would evolve into a party who is nanny state / socially conservative and one that is truely liberal. Who knows.

I would like a system of government where we elect functional presidents. Where we elect a head of health and one for law and order etc. With parliament acting as a congress. Would move away from the party system and allow us the people a more direct say on the functional areas.
312

Alan B,

16/06/2009 00:15:31
#Voldemort

Personally i would support scotland as a independent member of the eu like the other countries that are members of the eu on their own right.

I like that the eu offers:
1)freedom of movement of people and the right to work in any country within the eu.
2)the single market and associated issues like common health and safety rules for products.
3)a common currency which i believe would be in scotland economic interest.
4)a common approach to global environment issues

It also makes sense to me the for the eu to take a more pro active approach to foreign policy using its economic power to promote peace and stability.
313

PointOf View,

Bonnie Scotland 16/06/2009 00:15:54
"I would like a system of government where we elect functional presidents. Where we elect a head of health and one for law and order etc. With parliament acting as a congress. Would move away from the party system and allow us the people a more direct say on the functional areas".

Hmm, yes i quite like the sound of that, perhaps not in its entirety but close. I particularly like the idea of electing head of law enforcement. Hmm, as I’m sure the family of Jean Charles de Menezes and Ian Tomlinson would agree. Names please, county sheriff department up for election. Actually not at all a bad idea.
314

Electric Hermit,

16/06/2009 00:27:45
366
Alan B

What a pleasure it is to find someone talking a bit of sense about the EU instead of the usual Europhobic nonsense.

315

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 00:30:21
359: The answer is as complicated as we want it to be! It IS simple! There is no complexity or complicity other than that, that our political 'elite' want us to see!

I agree whole heartedly with you in so many aspects but let us create the boundaries NOW and not trust to fate and providence a promise that our nation will be 'free' when they are promising subservience to Brussels. That is NOT freedom and on that point I hope we agree.

If independence is a goal then let it be TOTAL and unequivocal! Independence is not some half cocked, half way house that means nothing but should mean choice and proper democracy for the people of Scotland. As current policy would have the SNP are merely swapping Westminster for Brussels ! The Scottish people will have NO say in policy and their politicians will have NO power to make their own policy. The SNP as it stands on Europe are telling us a lie. If they made it policy to give the people a choice to vote on Europe they would wipe out Labour!

We cannot trust such an important choice to politicians the people must be allowed to decide. If they decide in favour of Europe they must be prepared to give up their liberties and their freedom. Which, in all honestly, seems to me defeats the whole argument of being 'independent'.

Maybe Europe has promised vast 'handouts' to the Scots, but where is our pride and where is our 'independence' when we hand control over to them. Are we not strong enough to stand on our own two feet? Or are we just subsidy junkies who revel in charity? If the SNP were not such sheep on Europe they might well command 70% of the vote which would be enough!

Never let us be frightened of bold decisions. Never let us be afraid of standing our ground. Never let us be bullied in to thinking we are alone. Let us go forward and create industry and wealth for our county. Let us leave the greedy trade unions behind and make Scotland THE place in the western world to be. Moreover let all of that wealth filter
316

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 00:32:23
......... of that wealth filter down to ever man, woman and child rather than allowing our politicians create the politics of envy that seem to strike an unwelcome chord.
317

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 00:37:15
364:

So whats your point ?

If it happens now or in a years time it is still the same totalitarian ban ?

Maybe you and electric hermit should get together. You both seem as slow so you might get on.
318

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 16/06/2009 00:40:09
366

You have just proven that all people are sheep. Lets hope your opinion on the unelected, power hungry, EU fascists doesn't spread beyond your own nose!
319

Electric Hermit,

16/06/2009 00:44:31
371
Voldemort

If you still believe there is ever going to be a complete ban on air weapons, you are an even bigger fool than has been evident from your hysterical ranting about Scotland being a "totalitarian" state.

There is something distinctly familiar about your spittle-flecked rhetoric. It is very reminiscent of the kind of stuff that oozes out of Nick "The Slug" Griffin.

320

Electric Hermit,

16/06/2009 00:48:07
372
Voldemort

"You have just proven that all people are sheep."

Next you'll be telling us that we need the "strong leadership" of an elite that you just happen to be part of.

It's all straight out of the neo-Nazi songbook.

321

Electric Hermit,

16/06/2009 01:58:12
376
Cynicus in Exile

"How many peole have been killed/injured by motor cars in the same 8 year period? THOUSANDS more."

Characteristically defective reasoning of the "not as bad as Hitler" variety.

Perhaps when you grow up you will learn to make crucial categorical distinctions. For the moment, settle for trying to grasp the fact that airguns and cars are not the same. Although both can be dangerous in the wrong hands, motor vehicles serve a useful - some would argue essential - function. And we, as a society take sensible precautions to minimise the harm done by cars.

Notwithstanding your hysterical ranting about "totalitarianism", all that is being suggested is that we take similar, proportionate precautions in relation to airguns. That is "proportionate" as in taking account of the lack of any social or economic utility compared to, for example, cars. And the statistically lesser threat that they pose.

See how unremarkable and rational it all is when you actually think about it instead of going straight into spluttering outrage-mode?

322

Electric Hermit,

16/06/2009 02:01:23
377
Cynicus in Exile

"...the SNP is a political party and, ergo, run by thieves, scoundrels and liars like all the others."

Only the most shallow-thinking simpleton would embrace such wild generalisations. I suppose you can afford to spout krap like this since you have no credibility left to lose.

323

Russell M,

Stirling 16/06/2009 07:20:27
My dearest Electric Hermit,

Oh what evils that have been ushered in with the phrase "a few sensible precautions."

“Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”
324

Stan Butler,

16/06/2009 08:05:05
344 Electric Hermit

'First off, air weapons are not going to be banned.'

Presumably that's why 'SCOTTISH ministers vowed yesterday to introduce an outright ban on airguns'.

It's obvious you know nothing whatsoever about the subject.

Do you know anyone who owns a rifle or a shotgun or an airgun?


325

Electric Hermit,

16/06/2009 10:01:22
380
Russell M

'Oh what evils that have been ushered in with the phrase "a few sensible precautions."'

Really? Do tell!

326

Electric Hermit,

16/06/2009 10:10:49
381
Stan Butler

"Presumably that's why 'SCOTTISH ministers vowed yesterday to introduce an outright ban on airguns'."

Apparently, you are daft enough to take literally everything that politicians say. That would be your problem. As I've already explained, this is only the start of the process. MacAskill has set out his initial negotiating position. He has pushed the issue up the agenda. Which is exactly what he wants to do at this stage. This is NOT what is going on the statute books.

It really is amazing that this has to be explained to supposed adults.

"It's obvious you know nothing whatsoever about the subject."

The claim to superior knowledge may impress them in the playground. It leaves me cold.

327

Electric Hermit,

16/06/2009 10:15:04
381
Stan Butler

"Do you know anyone who owns a rifle or a shotgun or an airgun?"

Where I was brought up rifles and shotguns were commonplace and almost all the boys had air weapons of some kind, including myself.

I suspect you imagine you had some kind of point. Pity you didn't bring it with you.

328

Teratopside,

Grampian 16/06/2009 11:15:35
353 Personally I have no issue getting a licence but on principle I object to the erosion of civil liberties and potential stealth taxs look up the charge scale for an FAC.

We have good existing laws in place but not the conviction to use them (no pun in tended. If we add something why not something like the sex offenders register which would have to be interrogated by any shop before a gun could be sold.

I do strongly believe we need to get all weapons not just airguns out of the hands of the ned's.

The lack of personal accountability saddens me and the fact the only solution we pull is Ban this Ban that, our club puts massive effort into education on safety and responsibility for every shooter we come into contact with, the Scottish government spend millions on educating school kids on the best drugs but nothing on guns, knives etc.

Call me paranoid but I shoot an airgun and carry a pocket knife when out shooting (not anywhere else)according to public hysteria that makes me a homicidal mainic who should be locked up! Isn't it time the SNP came a talked to us instead of dictating from on high?

329

eeyore,

Not in the pasture with the sheep 16/06/2009 11:52:18
Ah Electric Hermit -

Such well thought out responses.

You are truly happy with being subject to your governing leaders.

I on the other hand can think for myself, and don't want or need leaders - I can do just fine with representatives in my government.
330

Electric Hermit,

16/06/2009 11:57:55
385
Teratopside

"Isn't it time the SNP came a talked to us instead of dictating from on high?"

The Scottish government offers considerable opportunities for public participation in the pre-legislative consultation process. Instead of whining and talking utter krap about the Scottish government "educating school kids on the best drugs", maybe it would be an idea if you took advantage of those opportunities.

331

Electric Hermit,

16/06/2009 11:58:55
386
eeyore

"Such well thought out responses."

Try to follow my example.

332

Electric Hermit,

16/06/2009 12:01:56
385
Teratopside

"...on principle I object to the erosion of civil liberties..."

More hysterical nonsense. There is no civil right to own a firearm. Any more than there is a civil right to operate a motor car. How can something that doesn't exist be "eroded"?

333

BigEars,

Dundee 22/07/2009 10:58:17
I remain puzzled by the SNP position on this. McAskill declaring a wish for a complete ban in the papers and replies to me from the Justice department saying there will be no ban, but licensing.

Consistency only seems to feature in the complete ignoring of my questions about what the perceived inadequacies of the present law are and how the public will be protected by a ban which only the law abiding will heed.

These are not the actions of mature, thoughtful politicians.
334

AndyD,

22/11/2009 18:50:40
More silly bans. I have given up on the SNP.

MacAskill will set the limit to zero and end up snaring people that have had a couple of pints the night before that are safe to drive. They'll be criminalised, have huge bans and fines way beyond the substance of the offence. His air rifle ban will just annoy farmers trying to control rats.

I will not vote for the SNP while this socialist control freak lefty is in a ministerial position. The SNP is like New Labour in a tartan shortbread tin.

Ex-SNP voter.
I'm with you mate. I love shooting my air rifles. Will they take away sharp objects next ? I was SNP for years because I thought the Tories and labour were nuts. It seems now they all are.
Oh i'm voting BNP now.

 

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