The end of the Union is Nigh!

It is Time - Time to be a nation again!

Cheerio England and quite frankly you are about to find out just how much Scotland was subsidising you. I am sick and tired of English Nationalisim and the belief the Scots are sponging off you. Scotland has been plundered by England for years, just as you plundered the colonies.

Its Time, lets get out of this godforasken Union!

gee whiz the answer is

INDEPENDENCE

for benefits see
NORWAY
ICELAND
IRELAND
:-)

The Westminster Parliament is in effect a Federal Parliament, just with the different Federal States having different devolved powers and making the same laws in different levels of the federal system. This needs to be sorted out, and all Federal States having the same devolved powers in devolved Parliaments. Come on you English, you have tried the experiment in Scotland first (as usual), now it's time for you to catch up. There IS NO GOING BACK.

But until you do - your idiot MP's made this idiot mess, and the rules are: Our MP's can vote on your issues, yours cant vote on ours - tough. As #1 says, I want Scottish MP's to vote on anything that moves down there. AND WE WILL WANT MORE AND MORE MONEY!!!!!!

And yet, despite recent studies (Oxford economics, The Herald) showing Scotland generating more Money than it spends, we have Michael Connarty, the Labour MP for Linlithgow and East Falkirk saying

"One issue which is causing a great deal of unhappiness is the Barnett Formula; we cannot get away from that. In education, the disparity between what some authorities in the south-east of England get and what Scottish authorities get can be as much as £1,500 per pupil."

Is he arguing for a reduction in Scotlands spending? This is a man elected to represent our best interests!! Scottish Labour's primary reason for existence is to keep itself in power in Westminster, even if it is to the detriment of its own people.

Suppose at the next election the SNP hold the balance of power at Westminster but do not have enough support to gain Independence for Scotland.

With the SNP support rising in Scotland, the Conservative vote likewise in England and Lib/Dem and Labour on the wane. That looks increasingly likely

The only realistic democratic solution to this Question would be for the English to renounce the Union.

They wouldn't do that to us.

Would they?

.
Labour MP's want what?

Reminds me of a mangy dug on a pointless exercise of snapping at its own tail whilst going round in circles. before dizzily collapsing in a heap through pure exhaustion.

Them Labour creatures might have more success at howling at the moon than begging for a consideration on that subject from the 'Britishness' Brown jobbie.

Aye and they know that fine well. So what's the story then?

Take the heat off or is it just another labotomy diversion into their ever increasing fantasy world.

.

#8. Andy­ Dufresne

Interesting scenario.

Given that the SNP's position of late is for the Independence issue to be resolved by means of a referendum.

It would make sense for them to campaign on the basis that they could indeed hold the balance of power, cracking the the Westminster whip for the benefit of Scotland.

It should not be too difficult for them to make a plausible case that a vote for anyone other than them, would be as good as flushed down the pan.

Given that English MP's have been screwing with Scottish matters for the last 300 years, including imposing their will on Scotland, they really have very little to complain about.

However, I do sympathise with them, and I think that the only solution is to give the English theit independence. That is the fairest and most logical approach.

I realise that they will have to struggle on without being subsidised by Scotland, but, they can't have their cake and eat it too. As compensation, we can let them keep Maggie Broon and all his little cohorts.

So, all you Englishmen out there, stand up for your rights. Demand English independence now. Free England.

And while we are at it, saor Alba.

Scottish Independence is the only answer. xxxx

Scottish Independence is the only answer.

#1,2,3,4,5,14

Just a pity all the polls over the last year have shown 70% against independence.

And you as well #15,

"Anne Begg, the MP for Aberdeen South, said Spain had managed to operate effectively with asymmetrical devolution"

Meanwhile Juan Pedro, MP for Madrid Central said "Britain had managed to operate effectively with asymmetrical devolution"

Scottish independence is the only answer

Does anyone actually know what independance will mean for the average person on the streets???? Can Scotland actually stand and support itself financially>?????

Has anyone noticed in the last section of the article, The West Lothian Question: what they say", the immortal words of Chris Huhne, the wannabe LibDem leader? Here are Mr Huhne's words:

"It [the West Lothian Question] is an anomaly that Scots MPs vote on matters that affect England, but English MPs do not have similar influence over Scots law because it has been devolved to Holyrood."

Mr Huhne is obviously unaware that "Scots law" was never ceded to the UK by the Treaty of Union in 1707 or any time since.

As we all know -- or should know, if the Scottish education system had not been delierately perverted -- the UK parliament (including the Scots MPs in it) has conveniently ignored that fact on numerous occasions.

I wonder if Nicol Stephen knows that?

#19 Kaza in Dubai:

Scotland already stands and supports itself financially. The UK government's egregious deliberate misallocations of Scotland’s revenues and inflation of its costs have been exposed by the experienced forensic accountant Niall Aslen in his copyrighted paper, “The Great Deception”, dated 22 March 2007.

This paper is available at www.scottishenterpriseparty.org. It shows that Scotland had a surplus of payments amounting to £9,632 million in the financial year 2004/05, the latest one for which figures are available.

There has been an odd quibble over individual points, but nobody has been able to shake the conclusion reached - that Scotland is subsidising the rest of the UK to a figure approaching £10 billion annually.

Scottish MPs to take action over the so-called "West Lothian Question", with some calling for the resurrection of English regional assemblies as the solution, The Scotsman can reveal.

The Scotsman - Part of the Nu Labour Newsgroup.

Scotish Labour MPs should know - they are the ones voting on the English bills.

A final comment.

The English MPs voted quite gladly to make Scotland the guinea pig for the Poll Tax; ignoring the suffering pain hardship and anger that was happening here during it.

Only when the rioting happened in England did they think twice.

And now when Scotland's parliament does better for the Scots than the English would choose to do, they are somehow bad or trying to annoy the English.

Loathesome, absolutely loathesome apologist pap!

More to #19, Kaza in Dubai:

I should have added in my comment #21 that the UK government has known for many years that Scotland supports itself financially.

Professor Gavin McCrone, Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, advised the UK government in 1975 of the truth about Scotland’s finances. As Chief Economic Adviser to the Secretary of State for Scotland, he prepared a report, “The Economics of Nationalism Re-examined”. The report was classified "Secret" and suppressed.

Professor Gavin's report came to light only in 2005, when the UK Government was forced by law to release it. The report advised the UK Government that an independent Scotland would have a massive budget surplus.

Professor McCrone appears to have the same opinion now. His article,”Scotland is faring better than you might think”, appeared on 6 September 2007 in The Scotsman.

Why is the Scotsman so concerned about what Scottish Labour backbench numpties have to say about anything?

Showing your bias again lads.

The solution to the WLQ is simple ... Independence for England. It's the only way forward because the Question in question is a valid question. And the only valid answer is to break up the Union that the Scots people never got a plebiscite on the first place, when the nobility of the land sold their country to England for a few paltry pounds plus land and titles south of the border!

Therefore, should not our battle cry in future be ... "Independence for England ... When do we want it ... NOW!"??

I think a lot of our English compatriots of the commonality would like it!

"The Scotsman can reveal"

The West Lothian Question in its underwear has it?

I think it's for the English regions to decide, themselves, what type of local government they would prefer.

"In Scotland, I would like to see this as one of the questions put: "Do you wish the Scottish Parliament to remain in being, in the certainty that, if it does remain in being, the consequence will be the break-up of Britain?""....

If he thinks this should be one of the questions I'd hate to see the rest:-)

Independence for the English, the poor wee souls that they are.

Its obvious lets shut down Holyrood then the problem goes away (tongue in cheek).

I can just picture the hordes of lost souls who make up the Labour party, North British branch, in Westminster, milling around aimlessly, waving their arms in the air and imploring their Master to “guide us oh Master!, tell us what to do!, we are lost without your light to guide us!”

Having been chosen by their local selection committees, primarily as a result of lack of any form of independent thinking, these MP’s cannot be expected to be able to come to any rational solution to this issue on their own behalf.
They need to be instructed upon what to think.

We, the electorate, can assist in this instruction process by allowing these lost souls to spend more time with their families following the next Westminster election. .

Bring on the "break up of the Union"! Common folk had little say in this matter when "nobles" accepted English bribes and sold us out. Let us all have our nations back- and we get to keep... what?... oh! the North Sea oil.... like that would ever happen! We can only hope.

What is the WLQ?

It is the WESTMINSTER LEGITIMACY QUESTION.

Why in an EQUAL? Treaty of Union, between 2 (two) sovereign states, does the larger state have the Constitutional? right to impose unwanted legislation on the smaller e.g Poll Tax. To take international decisions contrary to the wishes of the smaller partner e.g. Iraq War?

The Treaty of Union has been broken since the day and hour it was signed and should be consigned to the dustbin. If not, we will always be left with the WESTMINSTER LEGITIMACY QUESTION.

Tam Dalyell is an old war horse for the Union. His family got their wealth from the Empire and he for one is for maintaining the link with wealth and power. Most of current New Labour (Scottish) MPs are in it for the power and the associated loot. Frankly I do not think they give a damn about Scotland. Gorbals Mick may play the bagpipes as does Alistair Campbell but there have been many pipers who did and have a different agenda for Scotland. If we are so well off being part of this Union why are we at the bottom of almost every league table on health, welfare and social status? We are the only country in the world that with oil reserves worth billions stays in a disgraceful level of social poverty. Ask the parents of one-in-four Glasgow bairns! Come on AM2, give us the stats for child poverty, low health levels , inadequate housing, pensioner deaths thro' lack of heating, shortage of school infrastructures, graduate defections, transport deficits et al! Here in the North East we still await a dual carriageway from Aberdeen to the Peterhead and Fraserburgh oil locations and they started taking OUR oil out of the North Sea in 1969. And the unionist politicians in Westminster claim we are better off with this set-up (for that is what it is). The unfinished business of John Smith is still unfinished!

I'd prefer to see the Scottish Parliament scrapped, thus solving the problem, as it's been a complete waste of time and money so far (though possibly this was because of the inept previous administration). Unfortunately for me, I do not see this happening.

Labour truely are utterly incompetent. They created the whole mess with their ill thought out devolution plan. Now, only when its beginning to unravel, do they want a solution to the problem long forseen before the beginning.

If Scotland do eventually go independent, Labour can thank/blame themselves for setting the ball rolling with their devolution plan.

Speaking as a citizen of a federal country the situation in the UK appears to be what we would have in Canada if say Quebec and New Brunswick were the only provinces with a separate legislature and powers, Toronto had its own separate legislature and powers and the rest of the country was run directly from Ottawa. Of course we do it another way and perhaps it's time that the British do as well.

An English Parliament for England.
Problem sorted.

Independence is the answer. Get rid of Scottish MPs and the Scotland Office which is a complete waste of money. See yesterday's Sunday Mail

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/uk-and-international-new...

English MP's vote to keep control, managenent and income from the North Sea oil. Will theu devolve this?

The subtle difference here from previous punch-ups about WLQ is that it is MPs of Scottish constituencies who are calling for action
".. with some calling for the resurrection of English regional assemblies as the solution.."

Thank you, those MPs, for suggesting that a nation that they do not represent or otherwise speak for (as also the case with the PM) should be broken into regions.

Now, if UK regional devolution meant that the area currently called "Scotland" was itself broken up into two or more devolved regions (i.e. all of us abandoning the individual nationhood business, with no Scottish parliament) then the idea might just be a starter. As that seems somewhat unlikely, I would be grateful if those foreign MPs would stop suggesting that the answer to my nation's democratic deficit is to break it up.

Back to Union or forward to independence or federation. Rubbish status quo is not an option.

And where exactly is the demand for Regional Assemblies in England? Answer there isn't any. England has a fine Parliament already and does need more snout in the trough politicians working at Regional Level. This is NuLabor clutching at straws - the reality is that the West Lothian question does highlight inequities in the current system that are undefendable.

Given that 85%+ of all business at Westminster is 'England only', wouldn't it be simpler just to return the House of Commons back to English MPs and find another venue for purely UK business?

Maybe meeting once a week or once a month somewhere more central for the rest of the country?

40. Ken S., England

Am I right in saying that there are about 150 Scottish MPs at Westminster with only 59 Scottish constituencies?

How come English constituencies return so many Scots to represent them?

"We cannot pretend it is a suitable situation now in relation to Scotland or in relation to England."

But wasn't this a perfectly acceptable situation the other way round for nearly 300 years while it allowed for Scots Law to be decided by English MPs? (See Poll Tax, differing entitlements to Heating Allowances, et cetera).
It surely ill-behoves our southern cousins to greet and bawl about it now. If they really are, which I doubt. This is just the politicians.
The so-called "West Lothian Question" is now just as relevant to West Glamorgan, West Belfast and West Ham.
Simple answer - the game's over, we've all done pretty well (not just Tam, but some better than others right enough) out of the last 300 years. Good wee team, good job, back slaps all round but now we're all big grown-up countries that can manage fine on their own - aye, even England. Time to get the divorce papers out, but let's PLEASE make sure it's the most amicable parting ever. "Ae fond kiss and then we sever, ae fond kiss and then forever . . ." Then we can get down to respecting each other when all the greeting's stopped. Please?

42. Rulesbutnotrulers, A proud Briton
Independence is a cure worse than the disease in our circumstances.

Yes indeed, let us Britons all sign up for more powers to be transferred to Brussels.
Independence who needs it?

Scottish parliament with full powers restored.

English Independent Parliament.

Welsh Devolved Assembly aligned to English Parliament eventually federalist parliament/poss. independent state.

Stormont Devolved Assembly aligned to English Parliament eventually federalist parliament/poss. independent state or under shared legislation between Dail Eireann and Westminster.

Simple answer.

Problem is members of the Scottish Labour Party are too worried about their own careers.

The Union is history. As soon as devolution happened, then the rest would fall into place as a natural consequence.

Besides, I though we all voted for a Scottish parliament with tax varying powers??

'...despite a sustained campaign by the Conservative Party, which is starting to mobilise and inflame public opinion in England.'

What? Westminster picking fights with Edinburgh? Surely not! The Scotsman (sic) should have an editorial condemning it.

"I think the proposals that we had before for regional assemblies seemed to me to be a way forward."

What's this, a Scotsman that wants national government for Scotland but England balkanised into regions!

Well I never.

Well played Italy, the whole of England was behind you.

Or now we've "Scotland the Brand", we could think "out of the box" and sell it to interested parties.

I've ear-marked cattle, sheep and Aberdeen for China (who might not want the sheep but Korea would). Dundee could go to the Netherlands who wouldn't have our finest North Sea port and skills standing so idle. Norway should take the Northern and Western Isles and Seaboard where we'd get modern ferries, shipyards, technical colleges, roads etc. Glasgow for Iceland? The Borders and Galloway are a'ways debatable and negociable.

Although an alternative outfit called Alba Confracta promote their agenda for a Pictish Free State.

# 27 Boy Wonder - agreed.

300 years of being the only legislative jurisdiction on the planet that didnae have its own legislative body? Time to go, but mind - the English must always be our very, very best mates. Them, the Irish, the Welsh, the French . . . But England has to have a more special place since we'll share a border.
Is it not time to accept the inevitable and start thinking about the future after independence? Maybe some of the more radical posters here would curb their language. Being pro-Scots doesn't mean you need to be anti-English.

Livilion #43

A very sensible option - we could call it the" English Parliament" and then have a UK parliament (if wanted or required by all the 4 UK nations after English Devolution) in Edinburgh for Gordo and all his pals to retire to.
Home Rule for England!

#47 - why does it automatically follow that we'd be in the EU? It doesn't suit Scotland at the moment why continue with it now (witness the decimation of the fishing and other traditional industries)?

The SNP/Greens etc are the party pushing for independence but following independence there are a range of options.

51 - is that English Bitter, I hear??

Listen, its nothing to do with being anti-English. Just time for Scotland to cut the apron strings.

Don't assume the Scotsman speaks for all Scots. I think the solution is independence for all four countries with a Council of the Isles for common issues, but not sitting parliamentarians.

The unionists are doing more to break up the UK than the SNP. Just the other day an English MP complained at the proposed council tax freeze in Scotland and said it would breed hostility, or envy, or some such thing. So what is our parliament for? If it's just to comply with policy in England, whether Labour or the Tories are in power, we might as well scrap it. If a Labour government in Scotland were proposing a council tax freeze and the Tories were in Power in Westminster, there'd be support from Labour's ranks. My point is, we will have different parties in power, with different policy objectives; it's called democracy. There's nothing democratic about telling Scots to 'do as we do'. In fact, it undermines the purpose of the parliament altogether.

A spokesman said: "The expertise of the Scotland Office in liaising with the Scottish Government is more important than ever since the election of a minority government. It is increasingly influential in representing the UK government in Scotland and Scottish interests in Whitehall."note the use of Scottish Goverment,someone has just lost a brown envelope.Oh dear.

the settlement from london to scotland recently was £100,000,000,000 more or less

there are i believe 5,000,000 people in scotland.

pls explain how scotland subsidises england

non-partisan at this stage

Yes, I love a pint of English bitter. I enjoyed a few watching the Italy match.

The sooner we are rid of the Scottish Raj and these meddling Scots backbenchers like Ian Davidson the better. If the only way we can do it is independence then so be it, interferring hyprocrits like Ian Davidson can then take personal responsibility for the break-up.

Did you all notice that Gordon Brown was present at the match? The Brown jinx on British teams continues, hopefully the dour one-eyed git will stay away from Wembley.

8

Depends which question you are asking!

If you ask would the English electorate want us to leave the answer is undoubtedly Yes. Good riddance/good luck.

If you are asking would English politicians allow us to leave,the answer is only if the Scots forced them to through the ballot box.(which means No)

There are two possibilities which you have to understand and make a choice on:

1) The papers radio television and Westminster loyalists tell you that England subsidises Scotland.

Fraser Of Allander,MCrone,the SNP Greens SSP and Solidarity say its the other way round.

Clearly one of these groupings MUST be a liar .

Those of you who think that Westminster wishes to retain Scotland because it costs her money and she is therefore a benevolent society insist that we treat this view with respect.
OK Ill show respect.

Its asking a lot!

If there really were a subsidy coming to SCOTLAND why do you suppose that 1 million Scots want to end the Union? It does not make sense.
I'm sorry but all we ask of our fellow countrymen is before you dismiss our claims ,find out why we are making them! The answer is we know we have been conned!
People like Jim Sillars,(in line for Scottish secretary at the time according to many Labour activists) Ian Lawson(was also in line for Tory Chairman in Scotland) George Kerevan, Jimmy Reid and numerous others did not join the SNP for a laugh!
These activists came from other parties in many cases,and there are thousands of them!
The question you should ask yourself is WHY?

I think we should turn the clock back even further.
At one time there wasn't and England, Scotland etc but lot's of feuding principalities.
Then each area could have it's own rulers and rules and can fight each other again as they did before.
Of course, that would mean we would be invaded again and easily brought into subjection by another power and therefore united again but under someone else's rule.
Unless, of course, we banded together to fight a common cause!!!!!

The union of Great Britain reminds me of the Forth Bridge. It's red, it's very old, it's as symbolic of Britain as the Union flag, and it's worked for a long time and been very useful to a lot of people mainly Scots.

But while it seems a bit shoglie, but OK at the moment, it must be time to replace it with a new structure before it all falls down like a proud old lady with osteoporosis

If the Unionists don't act fast and negotiate, as equal partners (including a redistribution of assets and debts) a Federal Structure, then the Union will collapse, on a windy night, as, long ago so did the first rail bridge across the (now salmonless) Tay.

R.I.P.

61

You cannot measure the money handed back to Scotland only! How we compare to other regions has nothing to do with it.

You have to compare it to the taxation handed to London from Scotland!
Whichever is greater decides where there is any subsidy.Thats not economics ,it's school arithmetic!

When you do that (the way it should be calculated)ie everything which Scotland gives(SINCE THATS WHAT AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND WOULD NO LONGER HAND OVER AND THEREFORE RETAIN)a very different picture emerges.
You cannot get the right answer if you are not asking the right questions. Your government conned both sides of the border with this. Think about it!

62 - As part of the independence settlement, would you not like to keep Gordon Brown? A free gift?? He can sit in opposition for you and he can also do useful things like, calculating how much debt he can get you into to give the illusion of a successful economy, finding British Jobs for British Workers? He's also very patient. He'll say absolutely nothing while you get into an illegal invasion because he's waiting for his chance to become PM. He's very compliant.

Borrower Brown. From us to you, our oldest neighbours??

63: I would trust McCrone much further than any other of the normal sources, such as Prof "Deep" Midwinter et al.

You have to just love Scottish Labour MP's don't you? Always have their sticky little fingers in the English pie. Davidson is the latest numpty telling us to balkanise our country into nice little EU sized regions. Tell you what, Mr Davidson, why don't you go away and come up with a plan to slice your own country into unwanted regions? How about Borders, Central Belt, Lowlands, Highlands, Western Isles etc etc Then go away and sell your plan to your fellow countrymen....They don't want it,eh? Then stay away from England. We are a nation and a nation we will remain!

What makes the English think that being ruled by 2 lots of numpties (regional and central gov.) as we are would make thier lives better? It's just more politicians pandering to the nationalist common denominator, and trying to win votes.

A non story.

The WLQ is a load of nonsense anyway, given that England has a Labour majority of about 43 seats anyway. English MPs vote on devolved Scottish issues all the time as part of wider UK legislation

And the bill that legislated for top up fees in England - contained a significant number of provisions that extended to Scotland - same with foundation hospitals.

Independence for Scotland ASAP please.

64- ahhhh fear! the tactic unionists like the most. their modus operandii as it were.

"if we break up, the terrorists/germans/russians/others will invade us".

put it this way, if it got to the state that the british isles were being invaded (chortle chortle) then presumably the world would be in a bit of a mess anyway. it's not going to be a consequence of separating out the power bases in the islands.

we've been involved in two world wars in the past one hundred years and a few other ones which haven't been accorded such aggrandised titles.

being in a union didn't prevent our involvement in them!

68. Thanks for the kind offer. We may have him stuffed and put in the British museum as 'the last little Britisher'.

As others have noted the obvious answer is to let England become independent and take responsibility for its own affairs. It will obviously be difficult for them at first, having to wean themselves of the Scottish subsidy, reapply for membership of the European Union, cope with the flight of business and talent, etc. But in the long run it could do them good.

David Hamilton, the Labour MP for Midlothian, said "I do not believe you can play around with the constitution ...There is no way you can dilute the voting rights of any MPs, as [Tory MP] Malcolm Rifkind wants to do."

Er, Mr Hamilton, your party has played around with the constitution to the extent that you have been banned from voting on Scottish matters for the past ten years!

Hadn't you noticed?

Why don't Scotland MPs campaig for voting rights in the US congress. You have as much of a mandate there as you do on English matters.

66

You are absolutely correct of course,but I'm sure you are more than capable of working out why they don't stand up for Scotland.They would draw attention to reality.
They don't dare,their paymaster in Westminster would disown them!
Their loyalty is to their own party and self preservation,and not to the people who elected them,but we are afforded the right to vote of course.so it can only be our own fault irrespective of which party governs us.

Democracy works best when you have an informed electorate.Which are numerically greater,the intelligentsia or the village idiots?Where do the rest fit in ?
The real question is who are the informed and who are the misinformed? The winner takes it all!

To each of us belongs the responsibility of decision.

It does not augur well in my opinion.

#70 Hull - He ought to know better - prescott lost the referendum for a North East assembly. I think it was that point that the penny dropped that you cannot demote Scotland to a "region" in the hope that you can regionalise England to avoid people being upset about the power imbalances.

Yes, for Unionists, allowing the devolution of Scotland, Wales and NI was the biggest mistake they could have made. They hoped it might pull the rug from under the nationalist feet in the various countries, but they didn't think how it would affect England and they couldn't possibly imagine a nationalist administration in any of the assemblies they set up - because they thought that they'd covered that by boundary changes.

76

No argument there Terry. You are correct .

75: very good haha :-)

There are only UK MP's running the UK. They have devolved certain powers to three subordinate assemblies - delegated not abdicated - devolved not separated. Those powers can be taken back. Parliament is sovereign over all and all its members must stand equal.

Each nation has had to live with the reality that they are governed by representatives of the other three. The smaller nations have had to live with being dominated by England. That is the system. It is very imperfect. England cannot bleat when the glove is on the other hand. The argument that Scots MP's should not vote on English matters, is like saying North East MP's cannot vote on matters affecting London.

I condemn the little Englanders that seek to disenfranchise any elected representative at Westminster by a single division bell. I condemn the duplicitous rhetoric of the English Tories. I condemn the facile use of statistics to fan the flames of disenchantment for pure self-interest. I condemn most of all the suggestion that England is subsidising Scotland.

You do not have to be a fan of the Union to believe that if it means anything, it means we share what we have. There are winners and losers. For example, Scotland throws in oil revenues, England the financial sector and the benefits are shared according to regional need.

Remember the conclusion of last years Oxford Economics report, which excluded oil revenues, and said:

"Each of the regions in the so-called wider south east (London, the South East and the Eastern region) made a positive net contribution to the UK public finances in 2004-05, while all other regions of the UK had a net fiscal deficit. In terms of the per capita balance of spending over tax payments ..... Northern Ireland gains the most from the unequal regional composition of the UK public finances. ..... This is followed by Wales, the North East and Scotland."

Is Malcolm Rifkind bleating about subsidies to the North East of England,

78

English regional devolution may be railroaded through against the wishes of the people.They cannot afford to risk English demands for independence so the regional assemblies will become reality to try and ease pressure from English electors,who are only protecting their own as they see it (and they were told the same mince as we were)

81 - Mr. Brown, are you sure you've not got better things to do that be coming onto internet forums?

44. livilion, l
"..How come English constituencies return so many Scots to represent them?"

A variety of reasons, no doubt: e.g. the Scots candidates might already be resident in England (I gather that that one or two do choose to live here in paradise);or are party glitterati who have been parachuted into a safe seat that just happened to be in England; and then there is George Galloway..!!!
There is nothing exceptionable about their nationality in that context.

The issue I have here is not the nationality of the MPs so kindly proffering advice on breaking up my country but the extra-territorial location of their constituencies. The views of an English-born MP of a constituency in Scotland would be equally invalid in this instance.

68

I dont think we can keep him in the political sense anyway!
He wont be a Scots MP. Dunfermline East is debating whether to kick him out as I hear it.Thats why he dare not go to the polls!

He is not guaranteed an MP's salary never mind a PM's !

AM2, sometimes you make reasonable arguments based upon selective and dodgy information. Sometimes you make bad arguments. This is one of those times.

I see you've moved from a pre-election volume approach to posting, to a slightly less volumous approach, in an attempt to try and stop yourself appearing like a man that has been bitten by a foam-mouthed bull dog.

What I don't understand is how you think you help Unionism in any way. Most mid-road punters reading your pish must surely wonder if they'd really want to belong to a club that had you as a member...so to speak.

84

Debatable since in both cases they are elected representatives I would have thought,but I see the point, even if I am undecided in what extent I agree or otherwise.

It's time for England to mature as a nation and take responsibility of it's own affairs!

It would be a pity for England to descend into the second division of European states, sitting along with the likes of Poland, Greece and Lithuania! Surely England is better than that, however they must knickle down and get on with it. Scotland has propped up this sleeping giant for long enough!

I sincerely wish to see a successful England alongside a more progressive but equally vibrant independent Scotland.

I see people are busy here. My posts are being removed all over the shop.

Is Uncle Tam Dalyell another sacred cow like Lord Foulkes?

#73
If we had not been united we would have been under German rule. What price independence then?

#73

Because we had a war 60 years ago we should stick together now no matter what the cost *now*?

Dagnabbit. Meant #90

Ian Davidson MP said - "The first time we had a referendum for the Scottish Par-liament, we didn't get it - so just because the referendum in the north-east [of England] went against the plan, it doesn't mean it should be rejected completely."

1. We didn't get it because Labour changed the rules so that we had to get a clear majority of the total electorate!!!!!! Forgotten that we twist of history Mr Davidson??

2nd. I'm keeping this in case there is a referendum on the future of Scotland which doesn't go according to what I hope. Clearly, you are entitled to keep asking the question until you get the answer you are after!!

I quote: "In 1978 the Labour government passed the Scotland Act which legislated for the establishment of a Scottish Assembly, provided the Scots voted for such in a plebiscite. However, the Labour Party was bitterly divided on the subject of devolution. Despite officially favouring it, vast numbers of members opposed the establishment of an assembly, and this division caused the failure to reach the required 40% of the electorate voting in favour of an assembly (that itself was a quota only added to the Scotland Act by an amendment proposed by a Labour MP)."

Servius said “There are only UK MP's running the UK. They have devolved certain powers … Those powers can be taken back”

But they won’t be.

“Each nation has had to live with the reality that they are governed by representatives of the other three”

No we don’t

“The argument that Scots MP's should not vote on English matters, is like saying North East MP's cannot vote on matters affecting London.”

No, it’s nothing like it, at all

“I condemn the little Englanders…”

Ah, the insults, thank you.

“I condemn the facile use of statistics…”

Of course, you don’t want to base any argument on facts, do you?

“Scotland throws in oil revenues, England the financial sector and the benefits are shared according to regional need.”

No, they're not. The Chancellor (Scots seat natch) said only a few days ago “…Scotland has the highest income per head in the United Kingdom outside London and the South and East of England.”

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/newsroom_and_speeches/press...

However despite the above, Scotland received more money than EVERY SINGLE ENGLISH REGION (and Wales) in 2005/6 and will do for the projected 2007 figures.

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/economic_data_and_tools/fin...

Sorry I’ve gone and supported my argument with statistics.

“Remember the conclusion of last years Oxford Economics report, which excluded oil revenues”

Yes I do. The only way they could reach the conclusions they reached was by “estimating” something called “unidentifiable expenditure”. If you looked at that which is measurable, the picture was very different.

“Is Malcolm Rifkind bleating about subsidies…?”

No he’s trying to address

90: ifs and ands. if grandma had a beard, she'd be grandad. we're not under german rule, so the argument doesn't follow. australians, new zealanders, canadians, indians all fought in this war too, remember. as well as a host of others. it was nothing to do with a union. perhaps you'd like to tell me who you think might wish to invade us??

91: i know. it doesn't make sense to me either.

I was a Labour party member for over 30 years and I am now a conviction nationalist.I knew Donald Dewar very well and had a great deal of respect for him as a person.In reading Alastair Campbells account (Diaries)of the circumstances surrounding Donalds funeral I was shocked to read that Trendy Wendy seemed more anxious to talk to Alastair about the future and policy than anything else-my interpretation based on her human relation debacle since assuming her current role.I am now very concerned about the future of Scotland since Wendys brand of oppositional politics never seems to be in the interests of the electorate and she seems determined to undermine and insult.The disgraceful behaviour of Matthew Marr -her appointment-seems to have been an OTT reflection of this negative and anti task approach to the interests of this country.

94 - this is what we have to put up with. no idea who this guy is but clearly a scottish unionist of some descript. perhaps a Scotsman journalist on his teabreak, who knows?

sometimes they are the worst because with the straws they grasp, they often start going for your ankles, too.

The solution has always been a full federal settlement, with a parliament for each nation in the union.

The Tories have opposed this for 300 years so it is probably a good idea.

72# More Tory votes were cast in England than Labour (60000). If England got rid of Scotland, Labour would never get in again. It was Scottish voters that gave power to the Westminster government, if you don't like what you got, blame yourselves.

Hula#86,

You're right about AM2's style change, but isn't that because there are several AM2s - it was a virtual 24hr shift during the election! He/they certainly helped swing the result for us. The strategy of boring the t*ts aff everybody was a masterstroke!:)

Wow......anither hunner!

While devolution for english regions would solve this problem it is a solution unwanted in england. the london based media are ok with a london assumbly but actively campaign against the same for english regions, portraying it as a european plot against britain. Blair simply made a mess of english regionalistation.

A separate english parliament will also not happen as the mps in westminster will not want to give away 70% of their powers.

As such the tory solution is a small step in the right direction. However there are problems with it. Basically it requires fiscal autonomy for the scottish parliament. As most issues are not completely english only as they affect scottish funding. It would also require removing the fudge over many of the scottish parliament powers. Giving the sp complete responsiblity for energy, transport and law and order ect.

The english solution will probably be an english parliament made up of the same mps that currently sit in westminster. ie they will wear 2 hats.

The uk parliament will take on responsibilites of defence and security, foreign policy, eu policy and currency and probably not much more.

The question scotland then to ask is what is the point. would we not be better in the euro, would be not be better as a member of the eu on our own right, do we wish nuclear weapons.

96 - i would agree. the party which has surprised me the most is the scottish tories. they have been very vigourous in opposition but equally, have given support where support is deserved. in a situation like holyrood, that is putting the interests of the country first over partisan politics. i often wonder that if the Scottish Tories cut their losses and became a centre-right pro-independence party, they might actually gain more ground than they would potentially lose.

Labour seem to have been taken over by a very, very bitter group of quite unpleasant individuals and the LibDems don't seem to know what they stand for anymore. Mind you, i never really thought the LibDems stood for anything.

#99 KO

No this is Labour spin "don't vote SNP because you'll let the Tories in" in Scotland.

"Don't ask for equality with Scotland because you'll be ruled by the Tories for ever" in England.

In fact, Labour would have won the last three elections in England, including 2005 when the Tories won the popular vote. See here...

http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/area/uk/ge05/seats.htm

England should get what they vote for though

Fed up writing to Alastair Darling and him writing back and saying that the issues that affect me are nothing to do with him.

What is he for then? And how does he have the right to be CoE?

Scottish MPs like Ian Davidson are directly responsible for the greatly increased verbal and physical attacks on Scots in England. Yes there are growing accounts of that happening.

For decades Scottish Labour MPs have argued that Scotland is an economic basket case and that Scots are subsidy junkies.

They have been helped in this by the Scotsman newspaper whose editors and journalists have openly indulged in decrying Scots as being too stupid and too poor to stand on our two feet. Remember Arthur Midwinter anyone?

This was all lies. Scots were being sytematically lied to by other Scots whose loyalties lay only with London.

However these lies have come back big time to haunt Scottish Unionists. The Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph, Daily Express, the Times, the Sun and even the Guardian and the Independent now carry stories and commentaries about the English subsidising the Scots.

People like Ian Davidson and the editors of the Scotsman should be charged with inciting hatred against their own people.

WHO RUNS THE COUNTRY, MP's or councilors. That is the question. The labour party already has, a number of excellent plans, fully worked out and ready to role. The problem is when an MP become unelected they return to small towns and cities, to be treated extremly badly by councelors.

If Mp's create a regional system, councelors will lose power as debate asks questions. Example what the heck have you been doing for the past 25 years? MP's may run the country, but councellors run the towns.

This is a fight about who runs the country.

MP's or Councelors.

We will have an English Parliament. We will not tolerate Scotland's MPs telling us that England has to be broken up into Regions, headed by unwanted Regional Assemblies, with Scots still sitting in the UK Parliament, ruling over England.
Post 1997, this situation will not be tolerated. An English Parliament or complete independence for England.
They're heading the right for a civil war. Bring it on.

106.

Well said Calum10.

These MPs need to realise that it's their attitude towards England that is stoking English resentment, and not Alex Salmond. They need to face up to the fact that they have destroyed the Union despite their soundbites to the contrary.

http://thecep.org.uk/news/?page_id=281

Ian Davidson, the Labour MP for Glasgow South syas, "I think the proposals that we had before for regional assemblies seemed to me to be a way forward."

After devolution, it has nothing to do with him at all. Arrogant tosh from him. Keep your nose out.

English Parliament now!!

civil war. please, spare us the drama. i suppose you are going to send in the UK Armed Forces, staffed disproportionately by Scots, in to sort it out?

leave the chat about civil war to the Labour Unionists and their tactics of fear. sensible people should know better than to be hysterical.

I have to say there are 3 obvious solutions to the WLQ:

1) Four national parliaments with full fiscal responsibility funding a federal (vastly reduced) parliament

2) Four national parliaments of different levels of autonomy - a la Spain.

3) Complete independence.

I think my first choice would be number 3 follorwed by number 1. If the unionists want to maintain Britain - and I could be okay about that, then they better get on with option 1.

#102. Alan B / 10:14am 19 Nov 2007
".. the london based media are ok with a london assembly.."
I realise that the London Assembly is regarded theoretically as a manifestation of devolution, on a par with Wales and NI. I think most ordinary folk however would see it just as a re-invention of the old Greater London Council, on a par with those of Glasgow or Edinburgh. Otherwise there would be the situation that the largest city in the UK was administered piecemeal by a conglomeration of borough councils, with no overall coordination.

"The english solution will probably be an english parliament made up of the same mps that currently sit in westminster. ie they will wear 2 hats."

I agree that is a feasible scenario but it leaves me wondering how the largest constituent of the UK would then manage adequately with two-hat MPs, yet the other somewhat smaller constituent areas are so complex in their circumstances that they need to be governed by one-hat Westminster MPs, plus devolved Assembly/Parliament members, plus Secretaries of state, plus Westminster Grand Committees!

".. most issues are not completely english only as they affect scottish funding."

This is often said but what I don't understand is why legislation, etc, could not be organised in a way that enabled separation of discussion & voting on the contents of separate Bills. For example, whenever yet another EU Directive has to be incorporated into UK law, it often has to do so by separate Statutory Instruments (with virtually identical wording) for each area.

As you rightly say:What is the point?
Let's go for federation now.

northerner#108,

That's the spirit, but you could achieve this without a civil war!

Remember, we have all the nuclear subs and all the trident missiles, plus loads of other bombs at Coulport and Crombie. If you mess with us, you'll be wiped from the atlas and no mistake!! :-|

As far as I'm concerned you have an English parliament already, though I concede it does little for the benefit of the people outwith the South East.(perhaps I should have put the fullstop after 'people'!)
If the SNP don't vote on English only issues,would somebody please tell me why it is so difficult to stop Scottish,Welsh and Northern Irish MPs from abstaining too?

#103. artemisclyde

".. i would agree. the party which has surprised me the most is the scottish tories. .. i often wonder that if the Scottish Tories cut their losses and became a centre-right pro-independence party.."

How could they, when they are part of the Conservative & Unionist Party?!

Actually, I noted on an unofficial Tory website that some of them are complaining that the UK Conservative Party is turning into the English one, because of the enthusiasm of some of the English members for solving WLQ by English-only voting or even federation. My reaction was surprise that there was not already an organisation called the English Conservative Party, given that there is a separate Scottish one.

Sounds like another instance of having cake and eating it!

The popularity of the all england option is that the power of local 'big fishes' is preserved. In short it kills of local debate allowing the chap in Manchester to blame it all on London. We as London preseves its speacial UK status and blame every thing on Manchester, etc.

Here is the plan before the labour party won the general election of 1997. If the labour party lost, they were going to push for this plan.

The Original idea was to create 4 large regions roughly the size of , Denmark, Belgium and the Nederlands, in order to provide stronger debate. This was great when the labour party was in opposition and wanted a strong body to attack government policy, ensuring the delivery of better services. In government things have changed now those bodies would have attacked labour policies, so John Prescott, decided NAW.

4 of our regions are missing presumed kidnaped by the labour party.

Region 1, Northern England (north west, yorkshire and north east)
Region 2, Midlands (west midlands and east midlands)
Region 3,South West (the old stamping ground of Great western railways)
Region 4,South East England (south east england outside of london)

Estimated results in mock elections.

Region 1, Labour majority (Labour/Lib Dem/Conservative)
Region 2, Labour minority (Labour/Lib Dem/Conservative)
Region 3, Lib Dem minority (Lib Dem/Conservative/Labour)
Region 4, Conservative majority (Conservative/Lib Dem/Labour)

This would of provided a voice for the other parties. If proportional representation had of been brought in Lib Dem might have swept the floor. This is what John Prescott and the Northern English Labour Party could not have opposition in England. Ruthless.

I am sorry England does not have its own parliament. That is the real problem. Regional Assemblies are about regions, not countries. I'm a Fifer, but a Fife Assembly would be no substitute for a Scottish Parliament.
Real devolution and subsidiarity would mean some powers currently with the Scottish parliament would go to local government. Some Westminster powers would go to the Scottish parliament. Some Scottish parliament powers would go to the UK parliament.

Under the present system, the power lies with institutions, and they are squabbling over it. They ought to be ensuring that as much power as possible goes to the people.

If Labour MPs elected in Scotland feel that it's wrong for them to vote on certain matters, then the answer is very simple - they should refuse to vote on those matters. Go and have a cup of tea, instead. End of story.

# 118 Ken S., England

The London Assembly has the right to establish direct diplomatic ties with other countries. This has put London on a great devolved power base than Wales.

Hardly the greater london councel model.

TerryH, England / 10:03am 19 Nov 2007 writes

"Scotland received more money than EVERY SINGLE ENGLISH REGION (and Wales) in 2005/6 and will do for the projected 2007 figures."

He cites the Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2007 but does not tell us where to look to confirm his claim. Nor does he tell us whether the sum is absolute or per capita. Nor of course does his assertion take into account the revenue side of the equation.

He dismisses the inconvenient Oxford Economics findings because estimates have been used. However he does not tell us what impact the uncertainty in these estimates may have on the conclusions, if any. Nor does he tell us that the essential point - that the wider south east is helping all regions of the UK to an extent - remains valid.

I happen to be a fan of the Oxford Economics report because it does not need oil revenues to say that many regions of the UK get help and therefore Scotland is no more deserving of the subsidy junky title than parts of England of a similar size.

England throws in the surplus of the wider south east and Scotland its oil revenues. That's a fair trade I think.

artemisclyde93, shhh, you know your not supposed to mention things like that, remember the message from unionist control, everything has always been fair and honest.

So no more going off message and mentioning things like dodgy referendums, buried reports, illeagle wars, urban depravation, etc etc, they did not and do not exist in Scotland under unionism.

As for the article, Is there any sign that the good folk of England actually want them, maybe they should try a devolved English parliament, with not one power more than Scotlands, or should it be an assembly like Wales has? or something along Northern Irish lines, there's the problem, which type.

Of course H.M.G could take away some of the English resentment by telling them the truth about Scotland's econimy.

By the way AM2, I did see your kind offer late last night to finally get round to answering my questions, my apoligies for leaving it until this morning but the hour was very late and my bed beckoned.

However, thank you and here is number one, which political party do you support? C,mon now don't be shy

2. "300 years of oppression"

Grow up!

If the UK breaks up. What are you going to do, start putting us anglo-scots into camps?

Why do so many English and Scottish nationalists hate Anglo-Scots so much? What the problem was 250 years of success not quite good enough?

P.S most Anglo-Irish left the UK after the last break up.

"Sic a parcel o rogues in a nation", as the national bard once penned.

True, Ken. The Conservative Party in England and Wales amalgamated with the Unionist Party in Scotland to form the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party in 1965.

From people I know who are involved with the party and from politics in general in Scotland, my claim is not particularly far fetched.

It is still a minority view in the Scottish Tories, but a view held by a noticeable minority with some fairly high profile proponents.

We'll see what happens but in the current political climate, I am sure the Tories will do the common sense thing and realise which way the future lies. Put it this way, even if Cameron is the next PM, I would very much doubt that he will find many more than the current one Scottish Conservative MP in his ranks.

125 - erm, putting you into camps?? Somehow i doubt it.

Being the 21st Century, I am sure you would be extended the rights of residency which are common in today's world found right across the globe between different countries such as Sweden, Denmark and Norway, the EU, Australia and New Zealand, America and Canada and so forth.

You won't be boarding a train for Catterick Internment Camp soon.

Oooooh, lovely, it's all coming together!
The Scots Labour MP porkers are starting to squeal as loud as Ned Beatty in 'Deliverance' as they watch their expenses/pensions/salaried fuelled gravy train about to smash into the buffers....

It's not a question of democracy with them - it's a question of self preservation - and if that means shoving the crappola solution of Regional Assemblies on us, then so be it (whether we want it or not, obviously)....

If I were Davidson, wee Duggie Alexander or even the great white knuckled, one-eyed control freak himself, I would start looking for a vacant constituency for the Scots Parliament right now, because they'll all gonna need a job pretty soon (although I'm not too sure how good they will be at minding their own constituents business as opposed to what they do best - shoving their noses in others south of the border).....

What was it Mel (England hater) Gibson said in a film once? Oh yes, "FREEDOM!!!!!!!!" (and a Parliament for England too please!).

I have to stop reading this website, as i have WORK to do.

I do not mind the UK breaking up, becoming federal or even keeping the status quo. BUT I currenlty have interested parties, from 7 other countries interested in myself and work. Keep this up and these isles will lose the Anglo-Scots, just like they lost the Anglo-Irish.

I'll not stand by and see my family, friends, children and ancestors demonised, because this government won't finish the job it was elected for.

# 127 artemisclyde

BE CAREFULL. There's more in these isles than you know.

We retain the RIGHT FOR SELF DEFENSE.

It was the ancestors of the very people who are asking the west lothian question who caused the problem in the first place.

They are in the position they are in today due to ill gotten gains from supporting the union and selling Scotlands future down the river.

They are part of the problem, so they know what the solution is: do away with the union.

128 - nail on head. that is exactly what it boils down to.

self preservation ahead of common sense. Scots Labour MPs are just taking their lead from Great Leader Brown - preserve your own interest ahead of the interests of the electorate and people.

it will be interesting to see how many Scots Labouristas suddenly become more interested in the self-determination of Scotland if their ability to steer a much bigger ship slips away in opposition.

90

I am trying to think of a more stupid thing to say than that and words fail me. perhaps you could oblige?

#121. Danielrober2,
"..The London Assembly has the right to establish direct diplomatic ties with other countries."

Not diplomatic ; just business, cultural & tourism promotion. So do other cities (see links below), though perhaps London differs by having offices in a few foreign places - but then it does have a somewhat larger populace than elsewhere in UK.

Certainly London, nor indeed England, can participate in international diplomatic affairs in their own right. ...unlike Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland that attend the international British-Irish Council in addition to the UK government reps.

http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/letter-international.pdf

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/internet/council/wider_democr...

http://www.cardiff.gov.uk/content.asp?nav=2866,3386,5059&...

http://nigov.tmtm.com/wiki/Belfast_City_Council_Development_(Tourism_and_Promotion_of_Belfast)_Sub-Committee_Report_on_International_Strategic_Relations_Framework_(October_2004)

Its amazing how many snp Drones are posting as 'angry' english people asking for an english parliament and slagging of Scotland.

not very convincingly i must admit

Why is an MP for a Scottish constituency saying “we should be looking for some way of devolving power to the English regions”? It’s got nothing to do with him what form of devolution England has. Do English MPs go up to Scotland to tell the Scots how they should be governed?

136 Paranoia as well as delusions of grandeur? There must be something in the water in Scottish Labour HQ.

The concern by the Scottish Labour MPs is a bit late they should have thought about it like Tam Dalyell, before devolution. To suggest that England should now fall into step with Scotland is dare I say it a case of the tail wagging the dog, skilfully orchestrated by Alex Salmond.
If there is to be a referendum in Scotland, Tam's question ("Do you wish the Scottish Parliament to remain in being, in the certainty that, if it does remain in being, the consequence will be the break-up of Britain?" ) should be put to the Scottish electorate.

133

Your argument is based upon the presumption that figures quoted by HM Government are correct.

When Westminster authorised the McCrone Report to clarify the true position on Scotland and her economic independence, she should already have known this information ,(unless she has been lying of course or presenting information in a manner designed to conclude the opposite of the truth)and certainly had no need to suppress it,unless a deception was intended.Private studies such as Fraser of Allander showed Scotland was self sufficient before the discovery of oil.
The true figures for Scotland ceased in 1958,and Im being generous in presuming that those being published prior to that were accurate !There are two possibilities.London lied or the SNP lied.WHy would the SNP want to ruin Scotland?Your own common sense should tell you we have been taken for a ride on both sides of the Tweed.

#137,

Yes, actually they do, and have done for the last 300 years.

You don't even like a few months of it, let alone the 300 years that Scotland has had to put up with it, do you!

136

What is even more fascinating is your ability to tell what nationality a person is from his typing.

You are indeed a talented man .

Where am I from ?

There is indeed a logical argument for English constituency MPs only voting for purely England affecting legislation.
The real problem arises when this involves expenditure from taxation as all the UK is liable for its raising.
Also when spending is allocated to England only departments, such as Education or Health, it has a knock-on result in that their spending determines the Barnet allocation to Scotland.
The result is then that the Scottish block grant could be decided by the English MPs alone.
That is one anomaly sorted only to create another.

"despite a sustained campaign by the Conservative Party, which is starting to mobilise and inflame public opinion in England. "

what a load of ignorant tripe !

The Conservatives have been notorious for NOT highlighting the situation . In fact they have conspired with the British and Scottish governments to supress English protets and comment .

Their very hesitant ( and wrong ) response has been to go for EVOEM which would finish off the union for sure .

and they only did that after the grumblings from the English got to such a point that theycouldn't ignore them

left to themselves the Conservatives would have drawn a veil over the whole thing and never questioned the Barnett Rules , not that they are much .

137

No they sit in LOndon and tell us how we should be governed.

It would appear from the "English press" that more Englishmen are pressing for independence that Scots, so I say give it to them! then the Scots can just go their own way.

133. An English voice... / 11:22am 19 Nov 2007 writes:

"I see the nats have regrouped and are back to dishing out the same old excrement as before."

I agree, David Cameron should cut it out. The English are worse than the Scots.

On a serious note, Scotland's ability to pay its way is a much debated subject on this forum and there is a great deal of well informed opinion here on both sides. It leaves some uncertainty on the precise arithmetic, but either way, it is a much closer call than our friends in the south may think, especially when the present fiscal constraints are lifted.

One thing however is not in doubt. If Scotland is challenged to go it alone, a unity among all its peoples, among all opinion, will win the day.

When you devolve power to Edinburgh Cardiff and Belfast you automatically leave the Westminster parliament dealing with England only on devolved matters so England already has a devolution of sorts in some areas. The very fact that the devolved settlement is different for each assembly is as clear an indication as is possible that the intention of devolution has always been power retained not power devolved or should I be more pertinent and say subsidy retained. (both with and without the oil)
How many remember the excellent TV programme Scotching the Myth?
YOU SHOULD !

It showed subsidy after subsidy which is given to London and the South East, courtesy of the Scots and none of it was apparent but equally none of it was challenged, such was the quality of investigative journalism.That programme is one which I would welcome as an ongoing series,and will never see it of course. The last thing Westminster will encourage is truth.

#142 English voice

What i would say to the snp. let them have their cake and eat it and that should shut them up.

would you like to see a federal UK ?

Regional assemblies ? why on earth would the english want them, can you imagine them trying to
govern like that, no way. England as a country, or what is left of it, should try to stay together not split into factions. The union is dead, that is plain to see from the commons debates to the hate filled racist bile being printed in the English media. Nasty stuff
that exposes their true feelings.

Scotland I am sure will take a huge step nearer to getting out of this unholy alliance at the next election. I shudder to think what kind of state they will be in south of the border in a few years time.
What ever it is , I want no part of it.

And Gordon STILL can't say England in the commons, as that would mean him admitting he
has little or no influence in Scotland, oh and how the English love him for it.

We don't want English regions.

England is one nation - as proud and as historic as any other part of the UK.

Far better to dissolve the Union than to try and break old England. We'll not have it.

Michael Connarty, the Labour MP for Linlithgow and East Falkirk, believed the government had to take action because of growing resentment south of the Border. He said:

"There must be a conversation about this. We cannot pretend it is a suitable situation now in relation to Scotland or in relation to England."

There already is a National Conversation in Scotland about this - it's just your party are choosing to ignore it.......

There is no way in hell England will have regional assemblies,prescott tried that here in the north-east, and was shown a big fat NO, the answer is a English parliament.

I see that the career trough users are worried about their phoney baloney jobs (thanks Mel ! )

In order to keep them they are willing to sell Scotland out as usual.

#160 kimba

i remember that to, The people of Newcastle were against it and rightly so. Do you agree we should have only English voting o English isssues ?

133, Dear English voice. regroup from what exactly?

The truth, if your really interested, which I doubt, is that there are unionists who come on here who won't even admit what you have had to admit, that Scotland is in surplus now (as it has been for quite a while).

Have you even read the McCrone report?

It was written further back than thirty years and was then subsiquently buried (very quickly) by the government of the day under the thirty year rule, btw was it you who yesterday asked in a post was this report published before or after the first drop of oil came ashore? If it was can you please tell me, If you should claim to have read it, how you didn't already know the answer to that question?

You might also be interested to learn, although I doubt it, that way back then, whilst the SNP was saying how much better of Scotland could be under independence, quoting other figures than the one's claimed by the government, said government and other opposition parties clamed the snp had it wrong or were lieing, now we know the truth.

The other interesting thing about the McCrone report
was/is the fact that with it's burial also went any credebility any 'facts' or 'statistics' quoted or issued by unionists might have had.

Also of interest of course is where you spell out for the rest of the uk, (at 142) which presumably includes Wales and Northern Ireland what they will have to do if your vision of a federal uk came to pass, no say in it for them I see, incidently the Scotland is now being greedy bit has been tried before and it didn't work then.

Incidently, should we now call you a government spokesperson.

Incidently(2) If you would like some quotes from the McCrone report I will be happy to oblige.

142

The fact is Scotland would be far better off out of the Union even without the oil.
The oil just makes the idea of Independence so much more juicier.
All that UK government derived pish about Scots spending more than their English counterparts is just that pish.
The only data presented to support that mince is UK government Unionist data and we all know what that is worth taking in light their dodgy maths concerning NS oil production dont we?
Or can you present any Independent impartial sources supporting the Government claims?

I believe the average English mentality has enjoyed looking down on Scotland as its poor relation for far too long, while the Westminster parliament, composed of so-called unionist parties, has perpetuated this myth by treating Scottish interests as secondary to those of England. Their barefaced, thieving affrontery in grabbing Scottish oil, the insulting initial imposition of the Poll Tax on Scotland being only two of the countless measures taken to try and ensure Scotland can never excel the English prosperity so carefully guarded by a so-called 'British Parliament'. Now as they watch Scotland begin to prosper under a good caring government for the first time in centuries, they start to squirm and complain and want 'a government of their own too'. Well let them have it! A.S.A.P.!

162. Absolutely.

154 Well said sir, you have a little time left to save England as a nation. You won't do it while you stay in the union, such are the political demographics of
modern britain . You will for ever be short-changed in order to appease the Scots. Your national identity, already one of the weakest in Europe, will
disapppear unless you discover who you are, not like currently where you are branded a racist for being an Englishman.

Your gutter press however do you no favours, I find it remarkable that such racist tirades, full of lies and falsehoods are printed without the PC brigade freaking out. Of course we are a white nation which probably explains it. I urge you to beg the SNP to stand south of the border on the promise of a referendum on English independence. That way you could outwit the main political parties in England that have shown they don't give a toss about you.

146, Dear English voice forgot to ask, your answer to 136, does that include you?

156 ? Are you sure that was meant for me ?

# 153 Number 6, Germany

I find your opinion strange considering the plan for regional parliments was based on the German Lander's of West Germany.

I would think as you live there and enjoy the benefit of this system you would agree, as a suitable model. After all the old West Germans states were economic power houses, able to deal with local problems, with national clout.

165/166. What a load of bile, seems the green eyed monster is alive and thriving in Scotland.

172

Being a troll your no one tae talk aboot monsters now are ye?

#32 - And presumably the common folk (who are they and how are you measuring them?) will keep the revenue from the Northern sector of the UKCS?

A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage....

Regional government was Scottish Labour's answer to the West Lothian Question back in 1992 when Gordon Brown said:

<i>it is because the Scottish parliament is the precursor for one in Wales and regional devolution throughout Britain that the West Lothian question - essentially that different M.P.s will have differing roles at Westminster - is not a genuine problem in proceeding with change.</i>

http://www.unlockdemocracy.org.uk/?p=893

And in Scotland on Sunday (Aug 1995) fellow Scot George Robertson opinioned:

<i>"The answer to the West Lothian question is the fact that our constitutional plans are not confined to Scotland and Wales. It will also embrace regional government in England, and that's a firm commitment too."</i>

Judging from Ian Davidson's comments this is still their solution. The problem for the Scottish Raj is that people in England don't want our country balkanised.

Scottish People should contaxt MPs to demained a vote on independence. Westmister Parliament always been an English Parliament.

We want a Independence vote.

It's about time that Englsih people started campaigning for independence instead of blaming the Scots at every opportunity.

Richard#158,

Impressive CV and you sound exactly the type of boy Scotland's going to need in the next few years!

Best of luck!

AJ

133

Yet your happy enough to believe without any corroboration any statistic and figure presented by the UK Government and even post it as a basis for your own arguments.
So dont post to us about presenting tosh after all the crap youve introduced to these blogs.

".....which gives Scots about £1,500 more per head than England."

Yes, maybe on average, but areas such as the North East of England receive more per skull that Scots do.

Keep the union but change it to make it work for the majority.

We should have a united states of europe.

Federalism is the answer, in my opinion.

But there are lots of opinions. We just have to make it work. We can if we want to. The "we" is all of the United Kingdom.

Mary of Argyll's anglophobic bile disguises the kernel of the debate. We in England want our own "caring government" too. Regrettably the Westminster parliament is clogged up with Scottish Labour MP's with nowt to do except meddle in English matters. Like you,Mary, we want out of the Union but your raggle-taggle band of free-loading carreer MP's are too comfortable and want the Union to last forever and a day. Clearly, they prefer to take crumbs from the westminster table whilst talking of their love for Scotland.

#171 I have no idea why you find it strange. Are you assuming everyone in Germany is happy with
State Parliments? because if you are , your wrong.
Bayern for example is much resented for it's wealth
and lack of co-operation with other states, so no. As for states being economic power houses well i'm afraid that bears no relation to modern Germany where that is certainly not the case. One country , one Goverment thank-you very much. Remember Germany as a country is a fairly new entity, they have not had hundreds of years to develop a perfect system of Goverment.

#186

I think you are wrong. But until the WLQ is addressed fairly others will perceive you have a point.

# 166 & 172 - Oh dear, do you base your nationalism on a hatred of the English? tsk Tsk! You know us English Nationalists are in reality your allies don't you? Please engage your brains.

I love this, to see Labour politicians (who pushed thru' this biased devolution) squirm as they see the writing on the wall. I wonder if Ian Davidson signed the "Scottish Claim of Right" ..I think we should be told!

Maybe a Federal UK would have worked but I think it's too late now. Only an independent England will be good enough now. Bye Bye Britain. Bye bye Brown & co!

# 137 IM Archer, England

He has the right to comment because he is an MP.

# 186 Hull, England

I can read that, your the idiot who advised John Presscot.

180.LOL, YOUR THE ONE WHO IS SEETHING WITH RAGE,YOU WILL NEVER,NEVER GET ME OFF THIS BOARD, LOL TROG.

# 188 Number 6, Germany

I was under the impression that Braveria was doing very well, with the Lander system. I also heard that Germany was back tracking on some of the new laws holding back the Landers ability to affect government.

It would be interesting if this was not the case.

The West Lothian question is based on false assumptions and as such is a complete red herring.

It firstly assumes that English MPs have no say over what happens in Scotland. That is not true - the Westminster Parliament still controls the budgetary purse strings. It is they who have kept the Barnett formula; it is they who have the power to decide Scottish expenditure - all the Scottish Parliament is doing is prioritising how that expenditure is made.

A second assumption is that there is such a thing as "English-only" legislation. In my opinion there can be no such thing - any legislation carried out in England will have an effect on Scotland in politically, socially and economically. At the very least all legislation would involve spending decisions - why should England only decide what England gets yet it is the whole UK that decides what Scotland gets?

One reason why any piece of legislation would have an effect beyond England is because of the dominance of England within the Union. It has over 80 per cent of the UK population, over 80 per cent of the GDP and over 80 per cent of the seats at Westminster.

English MPs effectively set the level of public expenditure in other parts of the UK, and levels of taxation too (apart from council tax and the currently unused Scottish parliament three pence in the pound tax supplement). Decisions that at first glance appear to impact only on England in practice have a knock-on effect around the UK.

That being said one cannot deny that whilst there is a perception that Scotland gets better treatment then this argument will continue. The press have a part to play in presenting a truer picture of events - at least the likes of the Herald have written more factual articles (eg http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/other/display.var.1804147...) about the issue than the English press. Unfortuante

I'm not parochial and I'm not going down the route of 'all Scots unionists' are sell-outs and devalue Scotland and what we can achieve...

but sometimes I do wonder what goes through their heads when they/we sing

"But we can still rise now.
"And be a nation again."

Now, I hate the bit where the neds (yes, there will be some nationalists in there, sing the "wxxxxxs" bit as there's no need to be pro-Scots AND anti-English) but I know what those lines mean to me.

It means a sense of self. I like having England, Ireland and Wales as our neighbours etc.

But I can't understand why we don't rule our own land (and then live in harmony with those alongside and among us).

184. SORRY WE DON'T!

# 192 Kimba

It reads like "Jeremy Hamilton, Newcastle," is just getting too excited thinking about Teesside and Durham females.

It must be one of the most over used and over rated words in the English language to describe Scots as “Bravehearts”, as it really has nothing to do with the Scottish people in general at all, and doesn’t show the true character which rules the Scottish psyche, fear. In fact we have only acquired this “Braveheart” tag due to a film which is 99.9% fictional, and only represents the one person William Wallace, and not the rest of the population of Scotland. I will ask anyone out there, if Scots were really “Bravehearts” would there be such an alcohol dependent culture? No, that is called Dutch courage, or false courage, and not true courage. We have a reputation for bottling things up, instead of facing up to our problems when they occur, again fear and not bravery at work there. As well as being an alcohol dependent culture we are also an excuse dependent culture, blaming anyone and everyone but ourselves for anything and everything that goes wrong. The football game against the Italians is a good example; we had already grasped defeat out of the jaws of victory even before the match had started through obvious errors, and probably panic, just look at the Georgia game as an example. According to Scottish commentators, in the Italy game, it wasn’t the Scottish football players’ fault the first goal went in but a ball boy doing his job too well, how stupid does that sound? Italy’s final goal, seemingly, wasn’t an error by the Scottish goal keeper, which an amateur goal keeper would have plucked out of the air; it was the referee’s bad decision which stopped the Scottish defence and goal keeper from doing their jobs, more bright sparks there. If everything else fails we Scots can always fall back on our fail safe of blaming the English, they are always better to blame than our own inadequacies aren’t they. We are too stupid to look after ourselves and the English take advantage of the situation, and it must be the fault of the English, no, if we are too stupid, unedu

Richard #187,

There'll be more like Hassan. Salmond and Sturgeon will convert many more to the cause.

Suddenly 2017 is looking, more and more, like a sound proposition!

Wow...anither hunner!

186

Having 59 constituency seats out of a total of 646 is hardly clogging up Westminster is it? its less then 10% so we are under represented as it is.
Before devolution the English MPs had full control and sway over every issue of Scottish life.
Which is why we got the poll tax a full year before you did.
To winge now over the West Lothian question is really hypocritical to say the least.
We have had to put up with 300 years of English interference into all aspects of our lives.
I am just finding it really hard to shed any tears over the West Lothian question.

England has always had a devolved parliament?
It is called Westminster.

There are 529 English constituencies, electing statistically more Members of Parliament than all the Celtic Nations put together!

As a result of Scottish Devolution, the number of Scots M.P.'s were reduced from 71 to 59, tilting the balance even more in England's favour at Westminster.

During the Thatcher era when the then Conservative government had a massive number of English M.P.'s, and when the indigenous Tories had difficulty in manning the old Scottish Office, it repeatedly drove through unsuited, anti-Scottish legislation using this overwhelming English majority as if Scotland was some kind of political afterthought!
This policy continued under John Major's dwindling majority and Europhobe rebellion when he used UUP M.P.'s to keep him afloat and force through unwanted Scottish legislation tagged on to the end
of English Bills.

The Community Charge (or Poll Tax) was the prime example! On the eve of its introduction in England and Wales, the Tory Party panicked and hurriedly ditched its flag- ship policy after widespread protests, culminating in one of the worst riots ever seen in London!

This one iniquitous and divisive policy more than any other set the Scottish Constitutional Convention on its road to a devolved parliament at Holyrood!

The present argument is NOT about Scottish M.P.'s
voting on English issues, or even devolved government, but about the recent failure of the Conservative Party to win a majority of the massive total of 529 seats there for the taking! Its problem is that it is a Southern English political party which cannot win enough seats North of the Wash, where it only has a handful of M.P.'s and Councillors! The present campaign is being fuelled by the Unionist Conservatives who might well regret their actions?

Make no mistake, IF the Conservative Party returns to power in England with a lar

The simple answer is to have a Gentlemans agreement, that all Scottish Welsh and Northern Irish MPs abstain from voting and debating on matters that effect England. I mean that would include all Scottish MPs.

@ 178

It's about time that Scottish people started campaigning for independence instead of blaming the English at every opportunity.

(continued)

Personally I don't go along with this "settled will of the people" crap - devolution or rather decentralisation is not a static process but an on-going one. Power needs to be decentralised both within Scotland and within the English regions.

Now I know that some here have quoted the vote for a the North-East Assembly as being a reason for nor proceding. I'd disagree on the basis that what was being offered to the North East was little more than a talking shop with little or no real powers - Iain Davidson is right that this issue needs revisted but it should not just be the a re-hash of previous proposals. If Labour are serious about regional government they need to be prepared to let go of some power from Westminster - if they do then I could see a renewed attempt at creating English regional government - this time with real powers.

Things are not set in stone - if you had told someone in 1979 that there would be a Scottish Parliament now they would probably have laughed in your face. I don't believe that the devolvement of power in England is closed off. In any case, it will have to happen no matter what route Scotland takes - be it as part of the status quo, as part of a federation or as an independent country.

204

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha oh god enough!

What unionist argument?

The one where we cannae go it alone or the subsidy one?

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

"There is a perception in some parts of England that Scots are getting a whole series of advantages,,,,,,,,, "

thats wrong too , its throughout England .

As a Scot living in England I can see the sense in Regional assemblies but it is probably not going to happen because there is now a major campaign that sees it as part of a plot by the EU, and what was on offer is minimal devolution and maximum extra politicians.

The idea that ex industrial areas like the North East have really anything in Common with the commuter belt of Surrey is laughable but if it can not be sold to the North East it will not be sold anywhere in England.

The view is being whipped up by the Tories in England now as they have abandoned all hope of ever winning seats in Scotland. So they are running long and hard a campaign that says all Scots are Socialists and so all Socialists are Scots so we are being ruled by a foreign government, with a Scottish PM, Scottish Chancellor and Scottish Defense Secretary amongst others.

#204 english voice.

agreed with what you say. Do you agree on an English parliament.

Regional assemblies/ parliaments in England as a proposition was completely defeated in north east England. This is just a desperate last throw by Scottish labour. You continuously want English politicians to stop interfering in Scottish affairs, why don't you tell your interfering jobsworth M.P.'s to mind their own business and get on with plans for independence. We didn't vote for Blair or Brown. The majority in England voted Conservative. It's only the disgraceful imbalances in the English constituencies and the Scots and Welsh votes that keep these losers in power.

I wonder why all of a sudden, labour MP's are looking for a resolution of the West Lothian Question? It makes very little sense to me that a party with a large number of Scot's MP's (including the PM) should suddenly want to divest themselves of votes at westminster. Is this an example of party infighting ? Anti-brownites trying to indirectly weaken Gordon Browns position?

I also note that the independence vs the union "debate" is being carried on by the usual nutters in these forums.

Let's be clear guys (and gals), while this may be a deeply held and passionate commitment for you, for most people it's no more than a debate in the pub while the big-screen football isn't on.

I mean it's not even as if any of the arguments are particularly original - in a lot of posts they aren't even arguments at all, just a lot ill informed, boring rants about how would all be better/worse off with independence or how we are oppressed/supported by the tyrannical/partners in government English.

It really is true that online forums don't change anyone's opinion, they just polarise it.

201

If you are going to start producing dodgy stats and selective figures again you better first reconcile your previous stats in order to give them some credibility so how about telling us how you reconcile yer NS oil revenue claim of 9bn taken in by the UK compared to Norways 21bn taken in with less than half the production capacity?

Mps for Scottish constituencies should only vote on Scottish isssues and Mps for English constituencies should vote on English issues.Issues such as Foreign and Defence policy,which are common to both countries should be voted on by all mps....this is not rocket science,it is commense sense

193.Danielrober2
Does your mammy know your playing wi your daddy's computer?

204 AM2

I wonder where all of these brand new unionist logons have suddenly sprung up from? The same unionist troll no doubt?

114 AJ of Fife(actually Archduke James of fife for those of yous who didnt know!) Hi James! Surprised to see you posting today-would have thought youd be celebrating the Diamond wedding aniversary of HM and Prince philip. Have you been invited to the festivities or are they coming to you?
PS that first goal was a really 'soft' goal and with that bad free kick decision and lots of missed chances, we should have beaten them 4 to 1!

Regions could equated with states here. Each state has its own representative body which legislates for that state.Laws, taxes, etc.
Each state elects representatives to the federal legislative bodies which legislates on issues affecting the entire country.
You have countries within the UK essentially doing this now. Why would it pose a problem to have regional assemblies?

221

Even though there are only 59 Scottish votes to well over 500 English votes? aye that sounds fair.

aw shucks #199, now that you have explained it its all so clear... without the Union we would be lost!

adrift on a sea of self-pity and fear...

like the Irish, or the Norwegians, or maybe the Slovenes, or the Estonians... all those poor wee countries cast adrift and left to fend for themselves in a hostile world...

By the way Braveheart was 80-90% accurate with only the french princess episode truly fictional. The main theme was that the aristocracy couldn't be trusted, more interested in their own position and fortune than in the good of the country. Funnily enough there is some striking similarities with our Unionist aristocracy today - Brown desperately proclaiming his Britishness as he seeks to cling to power in London, the illiberal undemocrats ready to make pacts with the devil rather than put self-government to the vote, the Tory rump hoping we won't notice Cameron's English nationalism...

204. An English voice... / 1:27pm 19 Nov 2007

"What a joke this board has become."

When was it you started posting?

211. The Federalist
"Power needs to be decentralised both within Scotland and within the English regions."

I wish people would get out of the habit of defining Scotland as a single entity but England as regions.
Talk about regions on a UK-wide basis, including, e.g.Highland Region, Borders Region, etc and I'll start listening.
Until then get it quite clear:
Scotland= one nation
England = one nation
and any solution needs to be based on that.

228

Being a repetative serial troll isnie the same as winning an argument you may understand that one day if you ever manage to win one. In the mean time maybe you can tell us what these facts are that have been made up and are obviously upsetting you enough to want to mention it?

We hear comment from MPs for Scottish Constituencies, from David Trimble of Northern Ireland about the necessity for keeping the Union, We hear representatives from the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly telling us what is good for them and/or the Union. We hear Rosemary McKenna, the MP for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East, saying that she does not see the need for urgent action and that there have been anomalies in Westminster since the day it was created and that this is another one 'we' will have to live with. However, Madam, it is not you that has to live with the anomalies it is us in England!

What we do not hear is anyone with the authority to speak for the interests of England. Why? Because there is no recognition of England by a Parliament or Assembly with a first Minister to speak for us. How long can we go on having our needs and interests unacknowledged and ignored by a British government led by an MP with a Scottish constituency whose signature to the Scottish Claim of Right trumpeted that he would put the interests of Scotland first?

231

The conspiricy theory you are referring to actually has a name its commonly known as the Official secrets act only I dont think its a theory do you?
So why dont we use its name from now on just to keep it clear.

Well Tory party English MPs did vote in block to introduce the Poll tax in Scotland in spite of its unpopularity with the population so I suppose that answers your question with regards to that particular conspiricy theory.

226. Kaytoc, America / 1:44pm 19 Nov 2007
"..You have countries within the UK essentially doing this now. Why would it pose a problem to have regional assemblies.."

Because some folk want to define parts of the UK as nations, yet break up the largest nation into regions!

You have a union with vastly differing sizes of states. If I remember correctly, for example, California has over 60 times the population of Wisconsin [or was it Wyoming?]

That makes the 10:1 difference between Scotland and England look rather insignificant. Do you have the same sorts of complaints in the USA as we're having here?

206
The point is not the number of Scottish MP's in Westminster but the fact that they inflict legislation on England that they will not countenance in Scotland. Methinks some double - standards are at play.....By the by, how many English MP's sit in the Scots Parliament and pass legislation that affects Scotland and not England?
The only way to resolve this issue is to give England her own Parliament. More power to Alex Salmond and the SNP.

204: I suppose it is the quirk of some English characters I know and love that they believe they provided everything and paid for everything, too.

Arguments for the Union are very easily overturned because most of them wrest on historical argument which no longer hold water or hysterical arguments which can be overturned by people being mature and progressive and looking to the example of other countries and the way they run themselves and relate to one another. Economic arguments are arguments over statistics: whatever the outcome, economies will thrive or fail for the same reasons within a Union than without - that is, the competency of people running the economy.

I find that whatever way it is argued, independence of all the constituent parts of the UK is the way forward.

You could call for federalism but even then you cannot disconnect all the portfolios of government so neatly as to separate them out without one side being under-represented.

That was the trap that Labour fell into in the first place and it has cost the Union. Thank goodness for that.

You only need to look at the depths that Scottish Labour and the LibDems have plunged publically in the last few months to see that they realise they are on the losing side and they realise it. I'd be very interested to see any polling information about the state of the parties. They are just in denial about the true way forward and refuse to take part because they have lost control.

Yes, the world is globalising but that is not the same as uniting. With this, though, each constituent part of the world needs its own voice, now more than ever. Time to grow up a bit on all sides and end the union.

Seems to me, you're hoping for a settlement to the anomaly of the Union but you're not happy for it to come from the Scottish nationalists! Oh ma sides.

Yet you are happy enough to listen to English nationalists and Scottish unionists??? Deary me.

You've been rea

231

Who said the oil companies are involved in presenting DTI figures on NS oil revenues and production?
When have you ever introduced actual figures and stats from oil companies? every single stat and figure you have posted came from the DTI.
So that narrows down yer conspiricy theory or should I say official secrets act fact down a wee bitty eh?

We do not need England.

When the sea levels rise England will be flooded.
Their cities will be screwed, their farmland unusable.
Their nuclear plants a liability.

Scotland has:
Some oil left
Bags of renewable energy sources
Loads of Fresh Drinking Water
Lots of high ground.
With any luck our climate will be warm enough to enable more agricultural diversity. Whereas England is getting hotter and drier and has water shortages.

All the displaced English will want to move up here.

I say put a stop to it now. There is nothing good England can give us. They know this. The English want to live down south because of the weather but use Scotland as a free larder. For years they have told us we need them. Well it's a lie. And it's time we called them on it.

239

You still dont get it do you? 59 MPs cannot influence any decisions in Westminster unless a vast majority of English MPs endorse the same policy. So it still takes a majority of English MPs to get any legislation past in Westminster no matter which party is in power.

A few points from a Scot working in London.
(1) Regional government in England is a dead duck. (a) London is not a region with regional government. It is a big city with two tier local government. (b) If NE England does not want regional government then no other region will. (c) Regional sentiment in England is no greater than regional sentiment in Scotland (east/west, highland/lowland etc). Probably less so.
(2) The Tories are sure to keep harping on about the West Lothian Question. In 2005 they won more votes than Labour in England. Next time the Tories may win more seats in England too. They won't then take well to a Scottish PM and a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer.
(3) The point of the Tory grouse is not really about whether English money flows to Scotland or vice versa but rather that Labour imposes different policies in England from those that up, until the Holyrood election, it imposed in Scotland. And Scottish Labour MPs vote for the different policies in England.
(4) Alex Salmond and the SNP appear to be deliberately pursuing policies that will antagonise the English, especially freezing council tax. Today's posts illustrate the point. Because there isnt an easy answer to the West Lothian Question, let's dissolve the union.
(5) Since not even Alex Salmond sees independence for another ten years, the West Lothian Question is going to run and run.

We have the high ground - literally and can sell them fresh water, food and energy. Why the hell would we want them grubing al that stuff off us and screwing us over like they did with the oil?

231

And to your last bit doesnt the fact that we are all speaking English as our native tounge no answer that question as well?

#236

Congratulations

First time I have seen you're put instead of your.

244: it was all going quite well till point 4, though recovered in point 5. I dont think the SNP is setting out to upset the English voters. It is what the Scotsman would have you believe. The Scottish Parliament has responsibility over several portfolios of state. Does it therefore not follow that policies can be raised in Scotland which are different from England?

I'm afraid that there is no solution to the WLQ other than independence all round. Even if in the medium term, you addressed it and Westminster ruled on all matters English through English MPs and had collectivised votes on Defence, Foreign policy etc the same inequities would arise. Do you think, for example, that in such a set up, Scottish MPs would have backed the Iraq War? The EU Fisheries Quota? The EU Constitution question etc?

Gordon Browns reaction to English discontent is similar to that other Scot's expatriate,Charles the First.
"God(Scottish Labour) has appointed me to be his representative on Earth(England),I need only to answer to him(them) for my actions".
We all know the consequences of the actions of the first caledonian buffoon,is Gord a wiser man?.

204, Dear English voice, now you have that off your chest , care to go back and answer my questions to you, if you can, please notice, no bile, no tricks, no name calling, go on have a go.

AM2, care to tell us why the McCrone report was buried and by whom? and in case you've forgotton you have still to say which party you support.

Also could any unionist tell me how far they think their party's should be prepaired to go in 'defense ' of their precious union.

229/Andrew Ireland – Out of this region, and not including smaller island countries, which country hasn’t made it through the first round of a major competition of football, I’ll give you a clue it starts with a S and ends with a D, yes Scotland, even Wales has made it to the quarter finals of a world cup, this has nothing to do with a lack of skill. The other countries you talk about didn’t sign up to a Union due to a failure of the people to look after themselves, Scotland did.
Due to so little known about Scotland in historical documents of the day, how can you say 80-90% of Braveheart is accurate, you are talking out of the place the sun don’t shine, the story is about William Wallace for which almost nothing is known, the battle of stirling bridge was fought across an actual bridge and not a field, and was won due to bottle neck, seeing only two soldiers would have been able to cross at any time. As everything in the period was down to aristocracy they become an easy target, William Wallaces family couldn’t of been from a poor family either, as no one would have had any time for him either. Our Britishness is fact, even yours, and is probably the only reason you are able to do what you are doing today, attack your own people if you wish, but you can hardly attack the benefits Britain has gained through the partnership that the Union is.

234/ Methspaña - Why the Onion.

#246 Methspana..

Can we have that logo in Black and Yellow please to go with my big Banana feet.? Nice logo though.

238 Ken
No, even though our country is also a union. There was a civil war fought over states rights, but the slavery debate is what it is most remembered for.
For the most part it works well.
Our taxation tables are different than yours. We all pay a federal income income tax and then it depends upon where you live as to what other taxes you pay.
I live in Maryland where I have to pay state and local income taxes while the residents of some states such as Florida and Tennessee do not.
Each state has different budgetary requirements and raise that money in different ways. For instance in Florida the tourism industry subsidizes a large portion of their budget through the hotel tax you pay when you stay as well as rental car taxes, etc. As a tourist you help subsidize the residents of that state by decreasing their tax burden.

#253 Warden An' Redborn

Why not ?

AM2, forgot to add, don't you agree this delierate suppresion ofthe facts by the head unionists of the day i.e. HMG. casts a cloud over any other claims, facts, reports etc produced by any unionist source both before and since? If not, why not?

So, now Scottish Labour MP's want to address the WLQ by trying to foist regional assembles upon us. As has already been mentioned, John Prescott tried that one on the voters in the North-East - and got the kicking he duly deserved.

Devolution was never going to be a satisfactory constitutional solution to the needs of Scotland and England despite what Labour may pretend to the contrary. Once they started changing the nature of the Union did they really think that us voters south of the Border would be happy to just sit and watch events unfold? No, we hope the SNP achieves its objectives for independence; even if they don't it's what we English want.

193 , Like most political systems "Lander" has it's pros and cons. It does lead more often than not to
cross party alliances that are not seen as a good thing. EU law also trickles in to different states at different times, the smoking ban being the current obvious example with not all states implementing it till next year.

You say you were under the impression that Bayern
was doing very well. It is but as I said in my previous post , that is not going down so well in the rest of Germany. Berlin for example is billions of euros in debt but will receive no help from the overflowing bayern coffers. Similarly East Germany , despite billions of euros invested remains a basket case with mass population flows westwards. Christ we even have different public holidays in different states
depending on wether they are catholic or protestant.

So no again I say this is by no means a perfect model, even with a population of over 80 million
to deal with, and most definetly not the one that Scotland should consider. Its less than 60 years old and will probably change in the future.

236. Richard

Sorry mate. I mentioned this before. It's an ASCII Art Generator. You'll find it on.....

http://www.glassgiant.com/ascii/

Enjoy.

#242. Mong basher
"When the sea levels rise England will be flooded."

I presume that bashing us Mongs was a bit of light relief.
However, don't rely on England getting submerged by rising sea levels. The map on the link below shows how it would be rather unfortunate for sizeable areas but not exactly wholesale drowning!

http://geology.com/sea-level-rise/netherlands.shtml

That shows that the Grangemouth area would also suffer, though not West Lothian - which is an interesting Question ;-)

Anyone notice a lot of new names today - all supposedly English nationalists.

Suspicious or what?

252: ah another tired tune in the Unionist repertoire "we're all Brits at the end of the day - you may not like it but that is what we are".

what has the success of the football team or lack of it got to do with anything???? anything at all??

id venture that bringing about the independence of Scotland is a much more achievable goal than our national team beating the world champions!!

253. Warden An' All, Reborn / 2:08pm 19 Nov 2007

234/ Methspaña - Why the Onion.

I prefer an onion to a union OK?

238 Ken
I just reread your post and realize I didn't respond to another of your points.
Here, we have many layers of government. I mentioned federal and state, but there is also county and city governments as well which deal with the specifics of its area. This may have developed because of the vast differences in geographical, climatological and industrial needs and usages.

204 "Nats are clearly creating many new usernames...." says AM2 in a huff, the rules clearly stating that use of such puppetry on here is reserved to splenetic and addled Ulster unionists and transvestites from Malta.

An ironic comment in any case from a man who has claimed 8 careers, mutable and adaptable to the subject under discussion.

Independence is the answer to the WLQ!

English people are fed up with Scottish, Irish and Welsh politicians telling us we need our country fragmented into Euro-regions.

It's nations for al or regions for all.

Let's see Scotland split into Highlands, Lowlands and the Isles before England is bust up.

The Irish have been whinging about partition ever since it happened there. There is no way we will see our country disappear to keep people like Trimble happy for example.

#269 Richard

Well said and the idiot needs a brain..

#248. Arab Away

".. First time I have seen you're put instead of your."

Good work. Now could you have a go at those who say "should of", rather than "should've"

Trouble is that being a grammar Nazi attracts disqualification as does, under Godwin's Law, being the first person to use the word "Nazi".

So I'll keep off the subject.

243.
Ever heard of the "party system". English MP's do not vote on NATIONAL lines,they vote as instructed by the Whips. You are fortunate to have a national government in power which votes in the Scottish national interest not in party interest. Your 59 Scots MP's have determined that England will have tuition fees when they would not vote for them in Scotland. It's called hypocrisy. We English Nats want a party that will put English aspirations above those of the tired Tories and Nulab. Your bunch of mercenaries do not help matters. Jeez, how many parliamentarians does a country of 5 million need?

We need new British identities

Anglo-British
Irish-British
Welsh-British
Highlands-British
Lowlands-British
Isles-British
Glasgow-British
Edinburgh-British

#271 Ayrshire Scot..

" Transvestites from Malta " har har har i like it...

No one can accuse me of being a troll cos im big Banana feet and the original one at that.

#256. Kaytoc, America

Ta for that info. Sounds like a useful precedent for us here.

244 Publius, London

Some intersting points but I disagree on Council Tax. This is about votes in Scotland not about what those outside like or dislike. Everything the SNP does is not about how it will be perceived in Englqnd, thqts the reserve of the Unionist parties since they are all based there and depend on English votes for Government.

The SNP depends on Scottish votes for Government, obvious really. It has policies which are of most importance to Scots. The Unionist parties have policies of Most importance to the English, its a question of numbers, bums on UK seats, ticks in boxes.

I mention all this since many (not yourself) seem to think that much of what the SNP does is about antagonising the English or at least creating friction.
Most of the friction is with the Labour Government but at the end as yoyu can see bu their actions the SNP is pursuing what it feels is best for Scotland.

You might not agree with their idea of 'best', I dont agree with all their policies and I generally support them. The SNP are focused on Scottish politics an dthat alone. The Other 'Scottish' parties are so fake their headquarters are not even in Scotland and cant make a simple decision without talking to their bosses.

Q: Where do you stand on more devolution for Scotland?
A: LAB/LIB/TORY - Err Independence is an Agenda and we have asked London whats best for Scotland, ask again later when they have told us.

#225 Richard

I don't really think anything about Gerry Hassan's conversion to being pro-independence.

That wasn't the point I was making. What I was saying was that the arguments for or against independence are not going to be carried by the almost mindlessly entrenched zealotism espoused by some of the less rational figures on these forums.

You have individuals on these forums who appear to genuinely believe that anyone who doesn't support independence is either stupid, malicious or an agent of repression. On the other side you have people who believe that those who support independence are the next best thing to traitors to their country.

Neither group of people are going to win hearts and minds by constantly repeating the mantras of independence or unionism (be that, "it's oor oil" or "we shall fight them on the beaches" or whatever), and whatever Gerry Hassans' reasons for changing his views, I guarantee you it won't be because he feels that he is being oppressed by the English or because he thinks they stole our country.

#275 AM2

you did ..you did...you did...neh neh neh neh!!!!

The Real West Lothian Question is:
Do I still want to be part of the UK, Yes or No. Thats the question we all want an answer too, the other one is pure deflection so the Unionists are eagerly pursuing that instead.

Brilliant artwork,Meths!

The Independence Question: Labour MPs DONT want answers.

They dont even want the question.

275 AM2

say what?

288 Queen D

It's not mine! See previous post to Richard.

244. Publius

Agree with all.

..but I would presume that the superb Alex Salmond's tactics are primarily pro-Scotland rather than anti-England, though it would be entirely understandable if he derived a little pleasure out of antagonizing Westminster in so doing!

Which overseas territories will scotland be taking governership of after independence. I am thinking of the base in antartica. After all if we are taking a share of national debt then it also figures we get a share of everything else seeing as britain will no longer exist.

279 Perhaps a point would be a more pressing need for some before a new identity?

295 What are you denying saying?

300?

Based on my previous post:

Q: Where do you stand on more devolution for Scotland?
A: LAB/LIB/TORY - Err Independence is an Agenda and we have asked London whats best for Scotland, ask again later when they have told us.

Anyone think the anwers will be 'inspiring' or aspirational?
Most radical new power prediction: Separate electoral system - no brainer that one.

Do we also get a half share in northern ireland and wales?

The system of Government in Scotland will always make English people envious of those of us in Scotland.

We are not enslaved by the need to spend billions on weapons of war, of wars themselves and of contingency funds for wars as the English (UK) Government is.

Scotland, like Norway, Iceland and Ireland and most other small countries is Governed by a system geared towards People Politics, whereas the UK and other larger powers by a system of Power Politics.

Power Politics mindsets do not include free prescription charges, free university education, first class health service because all of these matters cost money Essentially they do as little as they need in those areas.

People Politics can and does think about the welfare of its people first and foremost.

I was writing almost 40 years ago that it didn't matter to Scotland which Government was in power in Westminster. Scotland would never get a good deal until the SYSTEM of Government changed.

I also forecast that Labour would never be in power again this century following the election of Margaret Thatcher a strange woman fractionally to the right of Vlad the Impaler.

I was right on both counts (It wasn't the Labour party which was elected in 1997 it was the SDP by another name).

In Scotland we have gone 50% of the way towards that new system of Government and are all the better for it, especially since May, but we will not be there until we have full Independence.

That process now seems inevitable, let's not drag it out. Let's have our referendum in 2010 and clear up this untidiness.

It will better suit England, Wales and Scotland and lead to a United Ireland soon thereafter.

look, why don't some of you other unionists try and help An English voice out, as he/ she still hasn't been able to answer my question.

AM2 216, my apoligies for not having noticed that you did indeed answer my question as to whom you support, but isin't it the case that if what you say is true, it is merely because New Labour became more right wing than the tories? which in no way of course precludes you from supporting them. but would indicte the degree of change in that party, a thing many of their members particularly the one's in Scotland have been loth to admit, as witnessed by the fact that they don't like to include the word 'New' in any of their election stuf.

So how could you at any time support such a duplicitess party?

this is off subject as you said but only because you didn't answer it on the day I first posted it but it is still, I believe pertenent.

#263 Damn, that's really not enough even with a 14 meter rise! oh well, back to the drawing board. The map I had seen previously had so much water that Scotland became a series of islands : )
Obviously not time to break out the ark yet...

The thing about England is even the English don't want to be English. Yorkshire people do not think they are English, the cornish do not think they're English. the only bit that wants to be English is the SE and the reason everyone hates them is because they think the world revolves around London.

I mean in any divorce things should be split down the middle i would be quite happy for scotland just to have 10 percent right enough. I think that would be very generous of us.

#305 - I would be in favour of a Politic of Peoples Power, where people are treated like humans but are also powerful When coutries go too much one way or the other they either become war mongering idiots with screwed home fronts or pathetic needy parasites. I operate on viking politics - pillage your enemies AND look after your people : )

304 AM2 it was funnier the first two times. Was he not a fighter for independence from an imperial oppressor anyway? Wouldn't think he would be your kind of hero? If you find a super-hero of subverience do let us know...

306 Bitter Orange

(c) Meths

#234 Is that not a noose Meths?

The one we'll need to hang ourselves after reading all the tripe here today . . .

;)

Karin m #310

I agree with you, so when we get independence, Scotland should get its share of the Banana plantations in Jamaica and hopefuly i can have a Banana..

" OH MR SUN LIGHT BANANA AND YOUR BIG BANANA FEET " OH MR SUN LIGHT BANANA YOUR SO BRIGHT "

307 Did you mean bermuda? What about ascension island. Dont you want that one.

293

What am I supposed to be looking for ?

Mongbasher said - "The thing about England is even the English don't want to be English. Yorkshire people do not think they are English, the cornish do not think they're English. the only bit that wants to be English is the SE and the reason everyone hates them is because they think the world revolves around London."

You are talking absolute crap. I am living in Yorkshire and we ARE English. We certainly don't need Scots speaking for us.

What you fail to mention is that Scotland is far more divided than England ever has been.

Highlanders look down on lowlanders (highlanders consider themselves Scottish and the lowlanders Sassanachs), islanders are completely different to the mainlanders and the Shetalnds want their oil back

So are we having northern ireland or wales?

karinm. You are one arrogant individual.

#303. karin m / 2:38pm 19 Nov 2007
"..Do we also get a half share in northern ireland and wales?.."

Nope.

With typical English generosity, you can have all of 'em.

not even shetland wants to be with you,they would rather be with Norway.

#323 Tunisia

SHUT IT!! GOT IT!!!!

319 Unless you understand gaelic please stop talking nonsense sasainn is the gaelic word for england and the people who live there are sasannach and the people in england speak beurla.

is it accurate to say a scottish prime minister has no say on english affairs?

I see that the "Teesside tosseur" continues to peddle her usual blend of idiocy..and get suckered in the most entertaining ways! :D

I watched the programme with Blair on last night and was struck by two thoughts. Firstly, Blair said that the most important thing for Labour to do was to prove it was capable of running the country, particularly that they could run the economy. They needed to prove the nay-sayers, oppossing parties and press wrong. I'm thinking that this entirely parallels what Labour, Tories and the Libs (as well as the Scottish & much of the English gutter press) are doing to the SNP.

Secondly, it was interesting that Blair made huge decisions both without cabinet and without Brown (eg on NHS spending increases). It seems that the Labour party was entirely guilty of unplanned, badly thought out policy. It struck me that this also happened with the Scottish Parliament & devolution (as well as in Iraq). The constituational mess we are in with the WLQ now is entirely of their own making. They simply don't think things through.

Result is that we are witnessing the start of the tearing up of the UK...and it is all thanks to Labour!!!

right anway hands up all those who want half of northern ireland and wales and any other crown dependencies?

330 not all of it AM2 if we are having a divorce we should use the ivana trump method dont get mad darling get everything...........

301. AM2, Glasgow / 2:38pm 19 Nov 2007

Who am I kidding? Not some days. Every day.

I agree, your are kidding us all every day ;)

LOL Considering the Scottish nationalists say they want an Independent Scotland, they sure do make a fuss about preventing the Englis wanting to escape the Scottish jack boot.

#333 Karin m

I want kent and staffordshire cos all then thatched cottages would make good fire wood and keep our but n bens nice and cosy

336 is a jack boot a wellie?

290.
It's time for you to cut the crap. Start by putting away your textbook:"Beginners Guide to the Fundamentals of the British Constitution". Only a naive fool,ie you , could possibly believe that here in England MP's are given a free vote. Name me one piece of legislation under this government that all English MP's have united on in the English NATIONAL interest? You are classic racist yourself- lose the argument and shout racism.Pitiful.

338 I suppose they would have their uses in the scottish antartic territory?

340 War in iraq?

AmM2. sorry pal but you have just given away your true allegence witht hose remarks, first time I have known you to bite so hard, but then i havn't read all your posts, I see you have no problem putting the new in labour.

I have always been left of centre but never hard left, but then I too ( just as I allowed in your case) am allowed my political opinons.

As for New Labour not being more right wing than the tories, please, do me a favour, it's one of the reasons that so many of their supporters have left them in recent years in a time when they have formed the government of the day.

Quasie - religous, where do you get them from?

I have always believed and will always believe that everyone (including you, as i have already shown) is entitled to their opinion, be it on politics or anything else, but honesty would be nice, it wasn't me or the party that I support that buried the McCrone report, lied about Weapons of Mass Destruction, held a dodgy referendum, etc etc. what do you call the type of fervour shown by some of
the unionists here, like the one who mentioned invasion, there on your side.

BTW, thank's for the spelling lesson, I didn't realise this was a spelling bee though.

AM2

What am I looking for in your link?
Is it the UK national statistics presented in the global oil table presented by BP and derived from the only available sourse the DTI? Have you noticed that they are actually slightly lower than Norways?
Which is amazing considering Norway has only half the production capablity of the UK and both sectors use the same technology.
How is that possible do you think?

When Scotland becomes independent we should split up England and Scotland should be first in line for the rich pickings

#319 and #323

Hello, a Shetland resident here and both posts are utter nonsense.

""What you fail to mention is that Scotland is far more divided than England ever has been.

Highlanders look down on lowlanders (highlanders consider themselves Scottish and the lowlanders Sassanachs), islanders are completely different to the mainlanders and the Shetalnds want their oil back""

And that's nonsense too. We islanders or Highlanders, are generally much more supportive of Scotland being independent than the more populated parts of Scotland. I guess we have more faith in OUR country than others do.

How about a trial separation?

340 voting themselves big pay rises?

259

I agree that an English Parliament is what is needed along with a Scottish and Welsh( if that is what they want). Independent nations is the norm.
The UK which is already finished anyway.Which country the Northern Irish will be loyal to is another matter,and their affair.I just hope that they can eventually agree on something.

310

Most things which are jointly owned and owed ,would be debated and probably divided on that pro rata basis. There is always some horse trading however and an international input probably.
The rights to future extraction of oil would however belong to the nation whose territorial water they lie in.Norway does not share her oil with Sweden or Denmark both of whom once ruled Norway.

On that basis Scotland would benefit enormously from independence with only a 5 million population,and before anybody disputes this Westminster has never ever doubted this would happen and knows it only too well.There are international laws governing these situations and the position of Scotland is sound.Of course no decision has been made as yet,but thats only because no question has been asked.It will be.

Any share of the oil accruing to England would be minimal,plus she has already had 50% of it anyway.

348 i dont know about you but when i say if in my colloquiel way it means when. Sorry to confuse you i know how easy you get confused. I do apologise. Anyway anyone want have a northern ireland or a bit of wales.

You know, if we put half the energy into attacking the British ruling elite, that we do insulting each other, we'd have our independence by now.

Gordon Brown must be rubbing his hands in glee that we have not yet joined forces against him and his supporting groupies.

Give him too much time and he'll be launching his own wars in our names.

343 - Just out of interest can you explain how Labour is more right wing than the Tories?

Do you consider a minimum wage, devolution, increased maternity and paternity leave, much higher public spending on education and the NHS, signing up to the European Social Chapter - all of which the Tories opposed - to be profoundly right wing?

350 whats the international law situation but about dependent territory overseas?

What about gibraltar are we having that?

355 i obviously wasnt standing far enough away meths the only thing i could see similar with that is the way she speaks. (martian)

323 Kenya

you raise an interesting point re territorial integrity

340

How can I have lost the argument when we are still having it?

Dont make me laugh do you honestly believe that Scottish MPs in Westminster have a free vote? or do they do exactly the same as their English counterparts and vote the party line.
Either way is still doesnie matter because 59 Scottish votes are a drop in the bucket compared to the other 600 plus and you just cant get around that fact no matter how much you cry and winge about it.
Face facts it wasnt Scots MPs in Westminster who legislated and voted in tuition fees it was ENGLISH MPs.
The Scots just went along for the ride.

"Most things which are jointly owned and owed, would be debated and probably divided on that pro rata basis. There is always some horse trading however and an international input probably."

You won't be in much of a bargaining position if England has Trident and Scotland doesn't.

However, in the intrests of good British relations I would settle for Scotland taking care of its share of national debt and responsibility for international treaties and obligations in return for assuming sole ownership of oil and gas in Scottish waters - England can always make the money back with road tolls at the border.

358 the point would be much more interesting if we knew what the point was you were gabbing about.

#356 Karin m

Yeh i think we should have that cos after gaining control of our Banana plantations in Jamaica we could then feed all of them monkeys in Gibraltar.

I want the Falkland islands, after all it was the Scottish who established themselves their before the English and most islanders are of Scottish origin.

361 "Kenya's" ( I don't know if that is a name or if the poster has taken an African country as a moniker for some reason) point re Shetland etc and whether they would want to join an independent Scotland, highly relevant I thought

Hoos Poos and Hail Jelly Belly

360 well maybe we will just hing on to the little trident missileys till you make your mind up?

"First we take Manhattan....then we take Berlin."

326 AM2

fair enough, my spelling and typing are variable.... If it has amused you and caused you to post "a wee funny" then it is progress indeed, I was coming to the opinion your were some kind of disfunctional computer programme.

#362 - So Scotland gets to look after Northern Ireland, too?

340

"Name me one piece of legislation under this government that all English MP's have united on in the English NATIONAL interest?"

All of them. If not then they are not doing what they are paid to do which is represent their own constituencies.
When 600 odd English MPs vote for their constituencies or on Party political matters you can bet your bottom dollar it will be in the English National interest certainly no Scotlands Irelands or Wales.

360 no not good enough we will have to be seeing the international divorce lawyers. We want half and joint custody of wales and northern ireland.

#365 Ayrshire Scot..

indeed...hoos poos...

360 "You won't be in much of a bargaining position if England has Trident and Scotland doesn't."

They are here, but I wouldn't expect much resistance to their 'repatriation' asap to a country with such twisted priorities it thinks it needs them. But what does this mean? And then folk like you think we should stay in a union where we are outnumbered by people with your mentality?

#366

You couldn't afford to, it would wipe out any future oil dividend that you base your sums on.

367 From New York to San Francisco its an inter city disco

In fact if scotland is the wife in this "relationship" then the wife usually gets the weans so on second thoughts we will have full custody of wales and northern ireland and england can have visiting rights on alternate weekends.

374 The ones that are here are bought and paid for.

#367 Methspana..

Im happy with Manchester and Liverpool, lets face it ,they want out of England too..

#364

It might have escaped your attention, but we are part of Scotland and have been for the last 600 years or so?

Why do people, who know nothing about Shetland, try and use us as some kind of stick to beat Scottish nationalists with? It happened during the 1979 referendum in a divide et impera way, which is why many Shetlanders became much more warm to the SNP, devolution and increasingly the cause of independence - symobolised by the Yes vote in 1997.

There's more chance of London not being part of an independent England, or Cornwall or Yorkshire, than Shetland not being part of an independent Scotland.

#376 Karin m..

LMAO...lol....nice one....What about bank holidays ?

Why are their people in this country who insist that we should not run the country by ourselves? What is wrong with these people?

#373

What makes you think I believe you should stay in a Union?

It's not a case of 'leaving' the Union - there will be no Union if Scotland votes for independence. It's a case of breaking the Union rather than leaving it.

Sooner you break it the better, so long as we can repatriate your politicians.

380 Well i suppose we could let england have them for christmas and we could have them all summer.

I wonder what the equivalent of the cd collection and the car is?

#373 - The English would rightly point out that it is a Scottish PM and Defence Secretary that wants them, and a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer that is finding the money to finance them. All elected into office by Scots and representing Scottish constituencies.

384 yes and so we divorce and split everything according to international law.

How much will it cost England to move Trident Missiles from Scotland? If that is even possible and many experts think that it isn't.

Then there's all the government and public assets that Scotland would be due a share of on independence - assets of the armed forces, government investments, bonds , gold and currency reserves, the foreign affairs infrastructure - embassies, intelligence networks etc?

Quite an expensive divorce for the rump UK state, methinks.

#385 Karin m..

That sounds good to me....fair is fair..!!

#383..Tosser is spelt...K I M B A ....GOT IT!!! SHUT IT!!!

#319 - I caused an uproar in a yorkshire pub once by mentioning the fact that I was in England so I speak from personal experience.

388 HUH? Whats denmark got to do with it. AM2 we are sorting our the divorce here. Will we give england the cd collection?

#388 Take a search through the local newspapers in Shetland for the reaction to them. They put it much better than I could. And its not especially positive.

390 As i said we use the ivana trump method.

382 Happy English. An excellent sentiment, I applsud you. Why can't we all just get along???

388: Denmark's claim? Denmark is having enough trouble trying to hold on to the Faroe Islands and Greenland without looking to add Shetland and/or Orkney into the mix.

The chances of the Danish state - not just daft ideological neo-nationalists like Dansk Folkeparti - of actually formalising action of their rights to parts of Scotland are about as remote as Gordon Brown being the Prime Minister of the UK after the next general election.

You can split hairs with that one all you like, but either way, it's just not happening.

383 Kimba - ingore 391, those who cannot discuss resort to name calling

363

Why dont you try and get you figures straight instead?
Why dont you help yourself and do the math.
I have shown you 3 or 4 times why the DTI figures dont match up with the facts now why dont you explain how it is possible for Norway to produce twice as much oil with less than half the available assets? What production methods are they using that is so revolutionary that it hasnt reached the UK sector yet?
Is the UK sector only producing 1/4 of its capacity?

359'
Making you laugh would prove an impossible task. You see the world as you want it to be and not as it is. Check the voting figures and you will see that the scots MP's swung it. You do your countrymen a disservice if you feel that they just went along for the ride. The trouble with Scottish Unionists like you is that it is always easier to lay the blame for the worlds ills at the doorstep of England but you don't have the balls of the Scots Nationalists to break away and stand on your own. As an Englishman, my heartfelt ssympathies go to the SNP if they have to deal with their own Unionists such as you. By the way, how many English MP's sit in Holyrood imposing legislation on the Scots? Could you just remind me of the figure?

#395 AM2

Would you like to comment on the Republic of Ireland's claim.??

395 well we (scotland) never renounced our claim on the americas
england did. So does that mean we will be claiming america stop being silly am2

395

Stop being a troll you have enough problems with your crediblity as it is.
Are you anticipating a Danish fleet of warships the day after Independence is declared in Scotland?

402 well there is that guy in the snp who is english me forget his name.

402 which incidentally i am quite okay with.

395 Argentina has never renounced its claim to the Falklands. So what? Self determination and the will of people who live there is paramount (or have you reversed your position re the north of Ireland?)

*******OIL & THE "DUBIOUS FIGURES"*******

"A specialized study points out that there are numerous problems and barriers which lead to inaccuracy of data and information published by institutions and Governments regarding oil production and reserves."

"There are semi-deliberate errors in oil figures and data, particularly the reserves evaluations and assessments, either by companies or Governments, for various reasons."

(The Study, published by Knowledge World Series, under the title, “The End of the Age of Oil”)

On the Question of Lothian, West,
For an answer we’re all on a quest.
Some think that each nation should form federation
And feel this would be for the best.

Others of much sterner stuff
Think that this would not be quite enough.
Their militant tendency? – Full independency
And if you don’t like it, well, tough!

And yet there are still a few folk
Who think Union’s not a sad joke.
And reach the conclusion that this devolution
Is something we need to revoke.

And so on West Lothian Q
We’ve still to resolve what to do.
We all seem quite skittish, ‘bout Broon’s style of British.
So Salmond – it’s all up to you

*******OIL & THE "DUBIOUS FIGURES"******* (contd)

"However, the Study perceives that many world countries such as Britain, Mexico as well as some OPEC members like Kuwait, Iraq, Venezuela and Saudi Arabia sometimes declared large increases in their reserve figures during the last decade without adequate justification."

...well if they lied about this etc......

412 And an irrelevant one at that. The Jacobites have a claim to the British throne - fact! You claim to have credibility - fact. Not all claims have any relevance. Claims on territories are secondary to the democratic wishes of the inhabitants - fact.

*******OIL & THE "DUBIOUS FIGURES"******* (contd)

"OPEC members also inflated or overstated their reserve figures in order to acquire higher marketing stakes. During OPEC negotiations, the figure denoting reserve available with the member plays an important role in defining the quota of each member country.

"The country holding bigger reserves will be in a better position in terms of the quota amount which it will ultimately obtain from the total aggregate of oil quantity extracted by the total OPEC members."

...well if they lied about this etc......

#401 - It's not really brain surgery. Norway produces more oil because it drills for more. The reserves they have are irrelevant. Norway makes more money from its oil because oil is a state run industry there, so they get all the tax revenue and a share of the profits.

402

How is that even possible with less than 10% of overall representation? dont you think the other couple of hundred English MPs may have swayed it instead then? or didnt their votes actually count?

"how many English MP's sit in Holyrood imposing legislation on the Scots? Could you just remind me of the figure"

None but then as you pointed out they dont have to be English to follow the party line do they?
So English influence is still present within the Labour Lib Dem and Tory parties within Scotland.
That was never more apparent as when we had to put up with the last administration under Labour and the Lib Dems.

#407 - That's awfully big of you.

412 scotland has a claim to loads of countries fact but still does not completely rule herself fact the sooner we do the better fact.

418 ? Would you care to explain that? I was only agreeing with your internationalist sentiments, there is no call to be rude to me. You sound just like the people above who cannot discuss anything sensibly, I am sorry I commented.

416

NS oil revenue has nothing to do with share profits and everything to do with production taxation.
According to the Troll Norway takes in 21bn in revenue not share dividends and the UK only takes in 9bn in revenue.
How can Norway drill for more oil with less than 50% of the drilling capacity?

anyway to get back to the subject the only solution to the west lothian question that will please all sides is a federal uk.

#408. Why did Jack squat?

425 What ho, old bean! What job are you claiming today? How's about submarine commander? Construction worker? Indian Chief?

Scots MPs should not vote on non UK issues anymore than they should receive extortiant MPS salaries and expenses for part-time work. Or hasn't it been noticed that much of their work was devolved to Holyrood.
Justy

424 - Because taxes are higher in Norway and because Norway makes money from selling oil. The UK does not sell oil.

425 erm no it isnt parked they go on little drives now and again.

418 Just to be clear, I am not "English Voice..." he is clearly just a troll who contributes little to discussion and seeks to stir up the very divisions I thought your previous post was commenting on.

Shetland & Denmark.......

How about Norway? Do they have a claim?

Freedom for the Celtic nations. We shall form a Celtic Lion Alliance and slay the Anglo Norman Hanoverian beast, we shall finish the job the Normans started, with a name like Norman what can you expect?

432 what do you mean hardcore im hardcore i tell you. I want independence but would settle for full fiscal autonomy in a federal uk. Its not what i want but you have to compromise sometimes dont you. Its independence by another name. however i would make one condidtion that i can have scottish on me passport.

I though there was a deal whereby NORWAY could claim back the islands for a certain sum. Did they not have a prior claim? Obviously my history is rusty.

Where is Chairman Gordon when you need him?

350

I really have no idea Karen as regards foreign dependencies. It is an interesting question from an academic point of view,and could take years to sort out I suspect.

I have no doubt that England will claim them but international law will presumably treat Scotland and the remainder as being equal in stature.ie we are a nation and the other bit is a multi national state,which is what it was before,(or is it) and effectivley equal in stature. Presumably anthing which is divisisble will be approx 9% Scottish or traded for that value .GOD ONLY KNOWS

United Nations would really have their work cut out over that one!

Whats with the oil thing this isnae about oil. That was like so 70s get over it. We have sorted that its ours.

O.K, Now Q..sideshow bob
Now Q..The Darkside
Now Q..The Master..
Now Q..Raspberry ripple
Now Q..Mullah omar..
Now Q..Morris the mammal..lets look out for the freaks...!!

...but of course this was over 500 years ago....

438 Have at him, eh? Eh? What would this involve, tossing a few irrelevant and skewed pastes of statistics from your "database" - he must be quaking in his (jack) boots.

Why do Scottish MPs believe that they have the right to tell us English what to do? The regionalistion of England is clearly NOT an answer to the WLQ and I defy any of them to explain how it would be.
They are right on one point however, there is serious resentment in England. Polls consistently show that 70% of English people want an English Parliament. Even more worrying for the Unionists is that 60% want independence from Scotland.
Act now Mr Brown and you MIGHT save the Union. Leave it to fester much longer and you can kiss goodbye to your precious Britishness.
Scotland had two referenda on a Scottish Parliament. It's time we English had a referendum for an English Parliament!

439 What are the total production figures since extraction began in Norway and Scotland?

The Normans are scarce on here. Limp wrists cannot type due to to much chugging. Cannot play football, cricket, tennis, rugby, a nation in decline.

Lijepa naša Domovino,
Oj junacka zemljo mila,
Stare slave djedovino,
Da bi vazda sretna bila!

Mila kano si nam slavna,
Mila si nam ti jedina,
Mila kuda si nam ravna,
Mila kuda si planina!

Teci Savo, Dravo teci,
Nit ti, Dunav, silu gubi!
Sinje more, svijetu reci,
Da svoj narod Hrvat ljubi!

Dok mu njive sunce grije,
Dok mu hrašce bura vije,
Dok mu mrtve grobak krije,
Dok mu živo srce bije!

As an Anglo-Scot (so unfashionable), i have relatives and mates on both sides of the hills.

Lots of my mates, some actually in the Labour party voted against regional government, because it was not regional goverment. Apprantly it was an attempt to turn the North East into a super county. Similar to the old Strathclyde County experiment.

The point is, many thought that John Presscot would come back and renegociate. He did not, instead he went off moved in the Admirty Building and had an affair with his secutary. Very Sad.

Belive me there are places in the North East of England where these guys do not go anymore without body gaurds. A bit over the top for my thinking but then, i never got scw%^d by the guy.

353 Ex Pat observor, you seem a little confused, let me start by saying that in no way am I trying to defend the tories.

But i stand by what I said and the fact as I also said that that is one of the reasons why their members have left (no pun intended) in droves at a time when their party has actually been in government.

Possible because they don't like pretense at the people's expense.

e.g. the mimimum wage. welcome but set at such a low level, there were complaints from the minute it was introduced.

Record levels of spending in Education and the N.H.S
do you mean PFIs or whatever they changed the name too. if so then you will be aware of the level of disquiet this has caused. incidently given the state of our hospitals the N.H.s was really not a good example.

As for devolution, yes after about a hundred years of Labour talking about it, and what were we promised, well as one leading Labourite of the time said 'A parish council' and what about the other things that could have been devolved but weren't

As for the European charter which was set up to guarantee peoples social and economic rights ( the charters words not mine) did you know that Britain has only signed up to 60 of the 72 sections and you have to admit that signing it didn't prevent those rendition flights stopping at Prestwick did it.

There can be a great deal of difference between apperance and reality, remember all that spin?

BTW profoundly right wing was your teminology not mine, but ask yourself this, who is it that is trying to introduce the anti terrorism legislation, I believe it is New Labour, the torys are trying to oppose some of it, whatever their reasons might be.

To be honest I have no time for any of them , but you already knew that.

450 no im being perfectly reasonable and serious like all snp supporters.

AM2 - everyone esle has ahd their loginss banne at a time they have plenty to write about. E.G. labour falling on their ases.

So why has a lot of natinoalists been banned from hootsmon and Yet you stay? In house biase perchance? Phone call from wendy to editor to "push the agenda"?

This papers view of freedom of speach makes me sick.

417.
This is not rocket science. MP's vote along PARTY lines and not NATIONAL lines in Westminster. If they voted along National lines, then here in England we would enjoy the same benefits that the SNP govt have secured for you. With tuition fees, Labour pushed this through AS THE MAJORITY PARTY with the full support of Scottish Labour MP's. This is one example of how Blair/Brown axis use the Scots. We in ENGLAND believe this to be UNFAIR. Is there anything that you still are unable to understand? In an ideal world,full of honourable men and women,your theory of voting on the basis of the national interest in England would hold good. Regrettably, its all theory. Careers are made by supporting the Party interest and not the national interest. Now, let's move on:HOW MANY ENGLISHMEN SIT IN HOLYROOD REPRESENTING SCOTTISH CONSTITUENCIES?

440. BIG HAIRY CATERPILLAR,

" Freedom for the Celtic nations. We shall form a Celtic Lion Alliance and slay the Anglo Norman Hanoverian beast"

Celts were early settlers in what is now known as Germany. Angles and Hanoverians were therefore Celts and we claim back our north British domain forthwith. Normans? Well, they were Vikings, so we've got an ancestral claim from that origin as well.

New keyboard anyone!

449 I never found you claiming to have 8 jobs funny. I always found it rather sad and and slightly concerning. Clearly the shock of the SNP win and the brilliance they have shown in government has reduced your mental faculties to a leguminous state. That you now almost daily seek to construct bizarre fantasies of working, variously, at the UN in diplomacy, in law enforcement, in espionage, in military analysis, flying helicopters etc in the hope these lunatic claims bolster your childish contributions shows the constant tension in lying has caused you further dissociation from reality. This i find sad, and I worry for you.
I suggest the best thing for you is to kiss off these Walter Mitty delusions and seek some escape from the weird fantasy you have created as a retreat from a world your are obviously unable to cope with. Cheers etc

457 well theres that guy in the snp whos name i forget as i said. Isnt foulksay born in england.

English Voice picks his "career" for the day...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVFcIJWe0zE

An English Voice: nice please, try and answer the points and questions that I put to you, you are starting to look very silly by avoiding them whilst at the same time trying to answer other folks posts which in turn is undermining the whole unionist stand point on here, as it is making you and by association the other unionist look like a bunch of chancers.

Tell you what, i'm going of for something to eat now which should give you something like an hour to
find and answer my post other wise you will start to appear very am2ish

Dear Land of Hope, thy hope is crowned.
God make thee mightier yet!
On Sov'reign brows, beloved, renowned,
Once more thy crown is set.
Thine equal laws, by Freedom gained,
Have ruled thee well and long;
By Freedom gained, by Truth maintained,
Thine Empire shall be strong.
Land of Hope and Glory,
Mother of the Free,
How shall we extol thee,
Who are born of thee?
Wider still and wider
Shall thy bounds be set;
God, who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet
God, who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet.
Thy fame is ancient as the days,
As Ocean large and wide
A pride that dares, and heeds not praise,
A stern and silent pride
Not that false joy that dreams content
With what our sires have won;
The blood a hero sire hath spent
Still nerves a hero son.

463 I know, how pedestrian and lacking in ambition for me to have claimed only one job. Send me the list you pick from each day and I'll see if any appeal?

Lock

OPEC didn't lie...they took each country's figures as gospel.

The article from the previous link can be found here.

http://pr.caltech.edu/periodicals/caltechnews/articles/v3...

466 I think he said he was a Proctologist? You're right about the holes though

463 what does ayrshire scots job have to do with the price of butter? As far as i am aware he has always been a medical scientist he doesnt change his job from spy to helicopter pilot every five minutes like you.

466. Omar Kader`, still far to wet to go outside / 4:04pm 19 Nov 2007

#460 Ayrshire..

"Nice one, i read a post of his where he said he was a Gynecologist and loved to poke around holes.."

..better than being a dentist any day. Imagine having to look down peoples' mouths. Ugh.....

english voice be an american indian today you could go the whole hog and do the "ymca"

475 my sister was a dental nurse and then retrained as a chiropidist i never understood how you could go from one side to another like that.

I liked mr benn mr benn was cool. Unlike that andy pandy that was scary.

#463 English Voice...

those of us who have been here a while are used to Ayrshire Scot's inventions. He is as you say a muppet.

350

A further thought Karen

The South Pole is a huge expanse and must contain mineral wealth,which will presumably with improved technology ,coupled to greed ,eventually become a feasible extraction (although we might need global warming and the melting of the polar cap to get near it which would be ironic) not to mention futile.

Whoever owns the adjacent land owns that slice of the South Pole cake.Boundaries are straight lines ie.
Thats presumably why Argentina and The UK fought over the Falklands/Malvinas although the Argentinian government was desperate for any deflection to try and save their skins of course.

Who gets what share of the Falklands ? That really is a question ! The mineral wealth of the South Pole could depend upon the outcome.Personally I don't care .Ill just divorce and live happily ever after.You coming to the divorce party ?

#362 "I want the Falkland islands, after all it was the Scottish who established themselves their before the English and most islanders are of Scottish origin".

That will be up to the Falkland Islanders!
I think however that they will stay with England because I doubt very much that Scotland would have the resources to defend them from any Argentinian threat!

I can't believe people have trawlled through 477 comments. I get bored after 20.

# 485 go and do something else then. Nobody asked you to contribute!

448. Home Rule for England, England / 3:54pm 19 Nov 2007
Why do Scottish MPs believe that they have the right to tell us English what to do?

Because they represent UK taxpayers.

The regionalistion of England is clearly NOT an answer to the WLQ and I defy any of them to explain how it would be.

This is a red herring anyway – it’s simply not going to happen. What is going to happen (after the next election, or at some time in the future) is Rifkind’s English Grand Committee proposal. Let’s stop discussing pie in the sky constitutional solutions which have no prospect of ever coming into being.

They are right on one point however, there is serious resentment in England. Polls consistently show that 70% of English people want an English Parliament. Even more worrying for the Unionists is that 60% want independence from Scotland.

You must be one of the few who takes opinion poll evidence seriously. Surely, the views of the Cabinet are what count.

Act now Mr Brown and you MIGHT save the Union. Leave it to fester much longer and you can kiss goodbye to your precious Britishness.

If you say so! It took a hell of a long time for devolution finally to come into effect (and the union didn’t crumble in the meantime, despite the usual Nutty Nat Cassandras queuing up to predict its imminent collapse).

Scotland had two referenda on a Scottish Parliament. It's time we English had a referendum for an English Parliament!

It’s not going to happen. As I said above, what is going to happen is the Tories’ English Grand Committee. Get real and live in the real world man!

483 yes i agree thank you it will. Same goes for shetland. Right another unionst myth debunked then. Take note unionists.

#488 English Voice...

:-) perhaps he is the product of "medical science"?

AM2 #392

Profuse apologies if I wasn't clear enough. Maybe you had difficulty understanding what I said.

Why is it that there are people here in SCOTLAND (utterly oblivious to what's going on in the UK!) who do not want SCOTLAND to be governed wholly autonomously bya government which is elected by the PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE! WAKE UP.

Middle England is usually unforgiving when it comes to a General Election. Cameron's rating is going up while Brown's is going down. This trend will continue.

488 whats vague about it medical scientists do sterling work for the nhs or have you never had a blood sample taken or been told exactly what kind of bacterial infection you have or had your blood gases measured.