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Why lump "in court, training, or off sick" together? Neither the courts nor the training courses run at night so what is the % off sick? How do the sickness rates compare across the different forces, here and abroad? If the sickness rates are not being managed then little point in throwing another 1000 bodies at a failing system.
hmmm, they do have time though to send 2 PCs to check why you havent renewed your tax disc on time. So they are excellent tax collectors. That is a priority after all, public saftey is at risk !
Well, it's not like we didn't know about this, if not the full extent of it!
And Hannibal the Cannibal Goldie jumps up tp point her finger at the SNP??
Wrong target, hen. Blame the previous administration for allowing things to get as bad as they have, that led to the SNP making the pledge.
The police needs to be forced to free up the men required to fulfil that pledge. After all, crime stats are going down, aren't they? They keep telling us that anyway!
wonder what percentage of traffic wardens are "on the beat" at any given time. How is it that this particular "public service" is fully staffed and manages to blanket every square inch of our cities ?priorities ?????
What is the snp government going to do about it...Or are they tied up with the St Andrews day celebrations
the SNP will sort out this shocking stat left by Labour
Let's see. 1,000 ADDITIONAL police officers, but a ration of 1:13 on the beat? That would mean only 77 visible beat policemen?? I think the SNP have it right by first of all ensuring we get that 1:13 ratio down to something ore sensible. Let's make better use of the resources we're already paying for.
In my father's day and his brothers they came from the mines or the highlans and did the job. Effectively! Now they have women partners, no absolute use in a riot situation, any man will be looking after his weaker half, stress leave, maternity leave, sensitivity training: give me a break. When I was a bairn an the polis showed up, they commanded respect, we were feart and all was well. And we're all so victimised by it. Waken up Scotland.
It would seem that this story proves that the SNP are right to abandon the alledged idea of employing 1000 "new recruits" (did they actually say new recruits in their manifesto?) and concentrate instead on redistributing existing personnell within the police force in order to obtain the goal of more cops on the street.
Perhaps it's about time that people (other than the partisan supporters like me) realised, and perhaps even acknowledged, that the SNP are governing rather well.
I'm trying to work out Annabel Goldie's point here.
Is she just wanting 1000 extra police officers so that we can have only 1 in 14 police officers on the beat? She hasn't even addressed the issue of paper work and bureaucracy.
Andy Dufresne said "Where are the extra 1,000 police?"
Erm, is it 2011 already?
Union mutt said "What is the snp government going to do about it...Or are they tied up with the St Andrews day celebrations"
You may like to check out this site http://www.scotland.gov.uk
For this.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2007/10/29081843
And this.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2007/06/06094601
And this site http://www.scottish.parliament.uk
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/officialReport...
"First, we will provide funds for substantial additional recruitment. I make it clear that additional recruitment will take place and that new bobbies will be on the beat. Secondly, I am only too aware that too many experienced and highly skilled officers leave the service at a time when they have much more to offer. Retaining their talents and skills, which cannot be taught in college but which can be learned on the streets, is vital, and we will retain them. Thirdly, we will enable existing officers to maximise their potential by cutting the red tape that has enmeshed them in recent years. We will allow our officers to protect, guard and patrol instead of being desk-bound, processing,
since mrs.thatchers time when, the police were legislated out of crime, and the running of the country handed to the professional classes, the police as an effective detterent to crime have been a.w.o.l. is it any wonder we have what we have?grow up. get real. effective policing is what we need . not politicians saying what will happen. as soon as the police said ; you will need to contact a lawyer , this is a civil matter . we were done for!
11% of the time doing paperwork;
Given that this paperwork allows them to have a database of records which will may help them in future investigations, this doesn't seem a massive amount to me.
The actual statistic is one in thirteen AT ANY ONE TIME. Given that 100% would mean all police officers working 24 hours a day with no holidays and no time spent in training, in court or doing paperwork-EVER- I think this statistic is a little( no, make that VERY-) misleading.
Incidentally, this also throws a different light on the SNP's stated intention to introduce 'the equivalent' of a certain amount of officers. Much ridicule was poured on this, but if changes could be made which made 26% of police on the beat at any one time, that would be as good as doubling the force.
This is an idiotic article! Rather than being a disclosure to "heap further embarrassment on the new SNP Government" it does precisely the opposite - demonstrating clearly that the first priority should be to re-deploy officers on the beat.
Clearly a concept too subtle for the somewhat feeble brainpower of the writing staff at SoS - though perfectly obvious to the rest of us.
7 union mutt,You are aptly named11 CanadaPolitical correctness in the UK has reached the point that where,although we may agree with what you say we cant actually admit it. ps I did not say that.
# 19 and is that not pathetic .................
Only one in 13 police are on the beat in Scotland----------------------------------------------------
So what is the SNP (SleazeNationalParty) doing to correct this safety problem??
And how will an Indedpendent Scotland DEAL with this issue,
DUHhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOT a bunch of dreamers,
GC
I've said it once, and I'll say it again. If you want more police on the streets, make sure you have plenty of doughnut and coffee shops out there for them. Officers on the beat are fickle, and their needs must be met by the community.
#21
G C
Did you read the news about pot in Scotland, I thought it might be disturbing for you.
#21 Galactic Cornball. Why don't you try magic toadstools for a wee change?
#15 The motive to thatcher legislation of the cops out of crime was narcotics traffic.That is a well known fact here.She paid for it when the american feds caught her.Hard. Maybe they should revamp the cop systems to where it doesn't take hours to process an arrest,then they can get back to the streets where they belong.Is there not an auxillary force there? I hope it is clear the last thing english wants is an honest Scotland which has an identity of itself.
I blame the Welsh
This ratio would improve if the SNP honoured its manifesto commitment.
I am trying to think , even a corner shop open 12 hrs a day only serves the public 50% of the time, compared to a office based civil servant who servers the public less than a 33% of the time (not management clearly)
statistic being used to confuse again it would seem
whenever a police man is asked they always alwaysproffer , not enough resources, or cash or equipmentto enable them to do there job properly, mainly cause if they didn't folks might realise they already have that and just are badly managed.
The numpties have done it again. Every week we get more evidence of the lack of ability the Numpties have to manage any parts of responsable Government. The Unionist clowns on this forum who would even attempt to justify the Actions of the LibDem/New Labour Government are simply liars who couldnt lie straight in bed. The lot of you keep justifying Independance from the Cabbage Unionist Parties who are more pre occupied with making pathetic attacks than what is good for Scotland than actually helping solve the problem. No Wonder the Unionist Political Parties are being shunned by the large majority of Scots. Get used to barracking for Unionists out of Government because as the two recent polls prove they wont be back in Government.
We need BOTH more efficient use of the police AND more police recruited specifically for on-the-beat.
Clearly the SNP can't be blamed for this situation. NuLabs Stalinist inclination towards forms, statistics, beancounting, performance indicators and diversity recording have led to the situation where the police do more recording than doing. The restrictions placed on them in terms of human rights legislation are all NuLabs doing. The SNP can rectify this and truly get cops back on the streets , but I suspect they are all mouth and no trousers,
#4 Jock MacSprog
I hate to remind you, but corroboration is one of the fundamentals that makes Scots Law different from English as was guaranteed by the 1707 treaty. I'd have thought the Nats would consider this a sacred cow and that any proposed change to make our law more like England's would have set off a great gnashing of teeth (imperialist oppression, destruction of Scots institutions blah, blah)
Agree with you re the traffic wardens though. Living in central Edinburgh, I can go days without seeing a cop (let alone on foot) but the blue meanies go around in packs. I often wonder why the council can manage to provide this 'service' so well.
True email sent to the Police in Leith. (Anonymised correspondence from a member of the public.)
Dear Sir/madam/automated telephone answering service
Having spent the past twenty minutes waiting for someone at Leith police station to pick up a telephone I have decided to abandon the idea and try e-mailing you instead. Perhaps you would be so kind as to pass this message on to your colleagues in Leith by means of smoke signal, carrier pigeon or ouija board.
As I'm writing this e-mail there are eleven failed medical experiments (I think you call them youths) in West Cromwell Street which is just off Commercial Street in Leith. Six of them seem happy enough to play a game which involves kicking a football against an iron gate with the force of a meteorite. This causes an earth shattering CLANG! which rings throughout the entire building. This game is now in it's third week and as I am unsure how the scoring system works, I have no idea if it will end any time soon.
The remaining five walking abortions are happily rummaging through several bags of rubbish and items of furniture that someone has so thoughtfully dumped beside the wheelie bins. One of them has found a saw and is setting about a discarded chair like a beaver on speed. I fear that it's only a matter of time before they turn their limited attention to the bottle of calor gas that is lying on its side between the two bins. If they could be relied on to only blow their arms and legs off then I would happily leave them to it. I would even go so far as to lend them the matches. Unfortunately they are far more likely to blow up half the street with them, and I've just finished decorating the kitchen.
What I suggest is this. After replying to this e-mail with worthless assurances that the matter is being looked into and will be dealt with, why not leave it until the one night of the year (probably bath night) when there are no mutants around, then drive up the street in
#2"Neither the courts nor the training courses run at night"No, but if a policeman spends hid day in court or a classroom he is obviously not available for night duties, so the effect is the same.
This is an interesting article highlighting a serious problem within the force. However, I simply cannot work out how this conclusion "The revelations will heap further embarrassment on the new SNP Government" can be arrived at.
If anything the article demonstrates that the SNP are using the correct approach. I despair of the quality of journalism in Scotland when even a situation that is entirely the making of the previous administration is used as a stick to beat a party that actually seeks to address the problem.
Awwwww bless
My favourite of the bit of the article is the lazy and corrupt oink harking back to the glory days of limited paperwork when you made an arrest.
The glory days of the fit up and selling info to the hardened crims. Someone down at the freemasons lodge the oink attends dislikes a certain young man for illegal reasons, just a secret handshake and problem solved.
The Oinks are too stupid to record information accurately and quickly. And they're lazy.
If you are stupid and lazy and worried about a future career as you have no skills, the police for you it is. The time at the station is the lazy oink trying to stay there for as long as possible, when the politician asks him. "Hey, oink, are you taking the p*ss back here and skyving by not going back out." "No sir, paperwork."
Mace them in the face if they spend less that 22 hours a week on the beat. Get back to the glory days of employee disciplince for skyving.
No.34 -
#5 Well said BW. I expect the new Liebour/libdumbs to open their mouths and let their bellies rumble, but Annybel?
#38 Andy
Can you tell me what your own profession is that is so efficient, value for money and socially useful? Please feel free to tell, so the police can learn from you.
The conclusion to this article, that there are few officers available for patrol duties is, in my experience, true. I was amused by the story I heard recently about a new sergeant arriving at a police office for his first early shift. Concerned that no cops had appeared by 7am he enquired with the civillian station assistant, to be told that they were the shift.
Can't help noticing a flaw in the stats though:'31.4% on rest days.'and'The remaining 33.2% are available for operational duties but have to be split into four shifts to cover a 24-hour period.'
In my day, there were 3 shifts to cover the 24 hour period, the 4th one was the one on rest day......
If they are not out catching criminals and thats what we are paying them for, what is their point exactly. Either get their lazy backsides onto the streets or get rid. Its no wonder the police have lost any shred of respect local communities ever had for them. I do not know anyone who has a good word to say for them.
Silly use of statistics.
Assuming police officers work a 40 hour week, and there are 168 hours in the week, that means that on average, even if you sent every single officer out on the beat for their whole shift, and didn't allow them any holidays, you'd still only get to 24% "available for frontline duties"
Wonder what the equivalent figure is for SoS journalists ?
These figures don't add up. How can 31.4% be on a rest day at any given moment? Are they only working a two day week? Also was no overtime worked last year?
45 Draco
There are parts of Edinburgh where people will not venture into at night. Where cabbies will not pick up.
The violent crime hotspots are known, we can presume to the police as well.
Similairly the police claim they have to arrest people for misdameanaurs to make arrest targets. BS if you ask me.
A police officer claiming a shortage of crime, pull the other one.
They are getting their heads down for the next break, actively looking for excuses to pursue the soft crime so they can get back to the 'go slow' with a coffee back at the office.
To answer your question though, if you need inspiration look to our soldiers. Less money, harder work, better results because they have some pride, sense of duty and management that doesn't let lazy oinks take the p*ss.
The cops are just their for the overpaid posts, high overtime. They have no sense of duty to go out and work for the money. They might get hurt. Best to just leave the hot spots alone and arrange to be somewhere else, preferrably in a cozy car with it's radiator on at max or eating a sandwhich back at the station.
Draco
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1208642003
Get it up ye.
Been that way for years. Lazy oinks getting their heads down.
I presume you are a lazy copper. Maybe you can pick up sum tips from here.
http://www.anotherconstable.co.uk/blog/2005/09/lazy-coppers/
This is not a party political question any more than why are so many teachers off with stress?, or how many administrators does it take to change a lightbulb in the health service?, or how many nurses to change a bed?,........
However, Labour must take a huge slice of the blame. This country (Scotland and/or UK) has been governed by two parties for many decades. There is nothing Labour have been busier at than creating new laws, creating more paperwork and creating more need to 'cover your arse'. Legislation to 'protect the employee' makes it near impossible to weed out the wasters. Often rule changes are for the right reasons, but rarely do they help. For all their perceived sins, the Tories at least try to cut bureaucracy. The SNP have been in a very weak governing position for 2 seconds and some wallies on here and elsewhere seek to blame them!
The problem is one inherited from the States- Lawyer power and the compensation culture. Why oh why we base anything on their culture I'll never know. Lawyers clamour for 'justice' when each time it means a bigger pay cheque for them. I suspect that the fear of greedy litigation ties up 50% of administration time. It is a no-win situation (except for lawyers and compensation recipients) and if the SNP can start to chip away at the lack of common sense in evidence today then great. This work should have started 40 years ago!
The police provide a good service but it could be so much better and more cost effective with less paperwork. We need to sort the lawyers first though.
#47 Andy
No answer from you. Says it all really.
50 Draco
See 46.
So, you have been outed as a lazy copper and your excuse for not working is that someone didn't provide their name and address on a interweb forum.
Sais it all really.
Get back to work you lazy oink!
There's no doubt that real law enforcement is very often frustrated by the so called PC brigade of lawyers and indeed some elements of Govt particularly local Cllrs.
The problem with that is as someone else once said "Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous media which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
#51 Andy
No, I was just trying to see if you would give us an indication of your own professional contribution to society. You make sweeping generalisations about the work ethic of another profession, implying that your contribution is greater and more efficient. Not to answer shows you to be, at best, juvenile, more likely to have another agenda.
What an abuse of statistics. Why not do the same calculations for doctors, nurses, ambulance drivers etc? Of course when you need 24 hour cover there needs to be more staff involved and in a 4 shift system, only one shift can be on at any one time so that rules out 75% of the staff straight away.
What silly and lazy journalism.
53 Draco
The police force is lazy. That is the subject of the story. It has been that way for years, top police management acknowledge it.
You cannot deny that fact and so you seek to find silly and irrelevant reasons to deflect attention of what is a innefectual police force through lazy oinks.
What other profession offers salaries of £30-40k after 10 years with only a few high school average grades and no requirements to put effort in?
You have been outed as a lazy copper. They should be judged on how they should be, not how bad other professions are.
31.4% on rest days ?
What company or buisiness could afford or remain solvent with this level of staff paid leave ?
same problem here and were spending a fortune but still they are rarely sighted.
however did you see the number at old bailey with waste of space ian blair
Your generalistaions need to be taken in context. I criticise if I am a position to do so, I do no criticise entire professions (with the exception of politicians who, with very few exceptions, I loathe as a group). From your comments, it is obvious that you think you do a harder, more efficient and socially useful job. I'm just wondering what that is, that's all. You're obviously not THAT confident in your own contribution that you refuse to tell me.
#57 Wini
A 'rest day' is a day off. I take it you work without them?
Why 4 shifts required?
Most 24.7 'Industries' get by on 3 shifts.
Work till 60-65 with the last years as desk jockeys and eating pies at football matches.
not surprising ewhen you see all the total waste and needless investigations to prove commonsense reasons all because of the Health and Safety rubbish that seems to be destroying life in Britain, there is more to policing than wearing these yellow coats and now half the country seems to where them so where are the police?SNP reduce the paperwork please and let the police work! be seen and be in the offices available. We know Nulab has destroyed the UK so how about Scotland making the break and getting our quality of life back - we don't need to emulate England or Wales for this let's do it ourselves. and stuff the EU
59 Draco
Tell me what you do that is better than the politicans. If you don't tell me then all politicians are good by default.
See how moronic the above argument is. Then aplpy that principal to yours.
And get back to work you lazy oink!
You are definately a lazy policeman who's fat and useless.
Tell me, do you feel guilty that people are scarred for life, get kicked unconcious regularly on the streets because you don't do your job well?
Sorry children, all this "blame SNP, blame Labour" etc misses the point. The revelation that only 8.3% of police are on the front line is the story for EVERY area of economic activity in our dear western society - and in EVERY country. I work in the arts - as an artist - and help run an artist-led community service on a grant of £16,000 a year. In front of our workshop is an arts centre on half a million a year in which 90% of the staff have nothing to do with producing art. But our way of working is deemed inappropriate because we refuse to deliver business plans, organise targets, write long-winded health and safety documents etc - we simply get on with the job in a safe, hazard-free and professional way.
This, I suspect, is also the case in education, the health service, the ambulance service and even, given the huge amounts of money spent on advertising, in the car industry.
This is the modern world, folks. Until you learn to run things yourselves - ie without the need for 200 mile long line management - and without "skiving" - you should accept that this is how things are. I don't blame the politicians. They simply reflect the calibre of voter, I'm afraid.
#57 Wini, aka Fiddler on the roof, aka God! Have you sought help? Some psychiatric facitilies are second to none, except the ones they're second to.
#63 Andy
I am set a task of whatever nature, I address it as honestly as I can, without fudge or self interest and deliver as good a result as I can, hopefully to the benefit of another person. And I do that pretty much on a daily basis. I think I make a fairly useful contribution to society. I don't think the average politician delivers the same result.
You still won't answer. You resort to childish insult and sweeping generalistions, thus making your opinions pretty worthless at present.
#61 James
Depends on the length of your working day. 2 shifts working 12 hours, 1 shift day off. 3 shifts working 8 hours, 1 shift off. Easy.
68 Draco
Stop pursuing this line of enquiry officer and get back to some relevant work.
The Police Force is inefficient, not just because of bearacracy but because lazy police officers can abuse the system for personal gain.
#66 Atomheart
In the main, I agree with you but you are wrong in not blaming the politicians. If they do nothing then who does? Labour have been the masters of over-regulation for years, usually influenced by trades unions or lawyers. For some wierd genetic or tribal reason, too many people still vote for them!
#70 Andy
Yes, there are lazy police officers (oinks is so mature, don't you think?) Yes, there are inefficient officers. Yes, procedure within the polce service make for inefficiency.
I have another 2 questions for you then, although I doubt you'll answer them either. Do you agree we need the police? If so, and you clearly think that EVERY police officer is stupider and lazier than you, have you considered joining to improve the service?
Andy & Draco- would you give it a rest!
#73 Phil C
Sorry. Just don't like to see yappy gobsh**tes getting away with their nonsense without challenge.
72 Draco
Look at how Nurses, Paramedics and Soldiers perform on less money and under similair circumstances. They do exceptionally well and are well respected amongst the general population.
Perhaps you should look to yourselves and not to others for the answers.
If you present yourself at the interview for a Policeman you should do the work if you accept the over paid post and all the perks.
I you do not present yourself at interview you cannot be blamed for being a lazy policeman. Simple logic.
This ratio is not only in Scotland but applies across the whole of the UK.Que the De Menezes shooting...it took 4 hours for the armed response team to eventually get to Stockwell tube station. The excuse being given, they were just coming on to their shift. I know the traffic in London is bad, but!!!! However, you can't blame the police too much, wouldn't you rather sit in the station doing paperwork than have to pound the street in all weather watching you don't offend the PC watchdogs?
#74 Draco
The best thing is to ignore his type. They might go away.
77 Tommy Trout
If police officers don't like the work, resign and get a job at Tesco.
It is about personal responsibility. Take the high pay, high over-time and good pension, do the work. If you subsequently discover you hate the job, quit and give the job to someone who will work for the money.
Whatever happened to the thief-takers of old?Charlie Barlow will be turning in his grave.
#78 Andy
Whatever it is you do, and obviously so well and with such unrestrained vigour, I'm glad you think its making a more useful contribution to society. Good on you.
81 Draco
Let's assume I am a lazy good for nothing, just to pursue your argument to the logical conclusion.
No-one dies, get's maimed, lives in fear, loses personal property, has their communities ruined as a result of my inaction.
As it happens I work for myself studying for my masters in mechanical engineering. I get no pay, and live under the poverty line.
Nurses have to pay to train themselves as do teacher and soldiers paid a pittance while they train.
Sitting on my arse all day for 30-40k would be a godsend sometimes.
We pay police officers 20k a year to train them, but not other necessary and useful professions.
The police has always attracted the lazy and stupid, it is seen as good money for nothing.
I can see the solution to this problem so clearly...
Jock Macsprog at #6 says of traffic wardens that 'this particular "public service" is fully staffed and manages to blanket every square inch of our cities.' Those of you better at statistics than me could work out how much of a traffic wardens day is wasted when there are no parking offenders about, so surely they could job share with the boys in blue and bring about a mega-force on the streets of our towns and cities! And I'm sure there would be no traffic wardens out there who would object to being able to carry a truncheon and handcuffs!
Andy Dufresne was a great character from a great film, maybe the greatest of films. But what he didn't have was a chip on his shoulder, he had hope. I'm afraid the character in these posts with the same name does Andy Dufresne an injustice. Perhaps he would care to tell everyone what he does that makes him such an expert on the police, all of the police. And the childish insults are little better than pathetic. And no, I'm not a police officer.
Don't rely on the SNP to solve this one. They couldn't negotiate themselves out of a paper bag. The answer is a National UK Police Force for crime etc, and a separate Traffic Police Force (including the wardens) for Traffic offences. Most European countries have this separation with different uniforms etc. Much more efficient.
Ah, I see that you are student study for a degree in mechanical engineering. Well, there are 3 areas where people can, if they were like you, make sweeping generalisations and make petty insults. How many fat, lazy, stupid students, mechanics or engineers do we all know. Well, I work in an engineering industry and there are a good few - as there are in every occupation.Andy, thanks for clearing up the mystery, the chip on your shoulder needs mending but no doubt in your studies you will encounter the phrase " Judge everyone else by your own high standards" and perhaps you will be worth listening to. Until then, I'm afraid you're not.
#81 Andy
I'm sorry that you think your intelligence and qualifications are not, for the moment, getting the monetary recompense they deserve. Jealousy and bitterness are no reason to right off an entire profession of men and women as lazy and stupid. I would have thought a man who much have some degree of intelligence as to study for an engineering degree would never make such a sweeping statement. That you feel you can comment, without, I presume, having any real knowledge of the intricacies of modern police work, is also quite surprising in a supposed academic. Your obvious dislike of the Police Service and police officers, would indicate to me that you have underlying issues that you need to take a wee look at.
Your journalist has totally missed the real reasons for the shortage of Police on the beat; and the answers are out there if he'd cared to look. Its a UK problem not just a Scottish problem. The UK Labour govt are only interested in statistics, and unfortunately have a breed of Chief Constables who's only interest is their careers, so will carry out their wishes. So for example car crime or vandalism becomes a major problem in an area and is making the crime figures look bad, a squad is put together to deal with it. If its successful those type of crimes are solved and reduced, so the crime figures/solvency rates look good. Problem is these squads take away numerous front line officers, and therefore allow other types of crimes to flourish. And it repeats itself as more squads are formed to tackle those. Tragically most politicians, chief constables and journalists really have no idea of pro active policing, and its the public who suffer!
86 Draco
Please try and hide your own insecurities.
My complaint is not they are all lazy and stupid, my complaint is that the profession has always attracted this bunch and has for years never addressed it.
See 47 and top police management expert opinion if you need a better source then me.
I've no doubt that having a high proportion of lazy and stupid people demotivates borderline staff.
But let's not hide the problem or make excuses. The fat, lazy skyver needs weeding.
Sorry you find commenting on facts problematic, but if the police stop apologising for the fat and lazy amongst them and start addressing the problem rather than blaming others, that would be a welcome start on the cultural change drastically required.
#88 Andy, contrary to your opinion there are plenty of people who wll have a go at nurses, teachers, paramedics, etc as anyone in the 'front line' is fair game for people like you, who obviously hold a grudge. There may be some fat lazy coppers, though I think the fact you call them oinks lets us know where you are coming from. But the fact is it would be a whole lot worse out there if it wasn't for the Police. Most cops that I know would far rather be pro active rather than ticking boxes and sitting around in court all day either waiting for no show witnesses or until the accused pleads guilty at the very last minute. That's something that needs to be sorted out, but I do not blame the cops for it, it is the system they work in.
#88 Andy
When has anyone sought to justify laziness or inefficiency in the police service? If you can find that anywhere in what I've said, do so. I've only pointed out that your ridiculous generalisations are, themselves an indication of intellectual laziness and, probably, an underlying prejudice. Not good attributes in academic.. It's maybe no wonder you currently find yourself currently unemployed and poor. You don't appear to have the skills required. Bye.
From what I have seen there is little evidence that more police on the beat reduces crime. The biggest fear is being caught, which may mean that some if not a large part of the desk bound work is actually going to some good use. We had more than enough police in my home town but they would often just drive by when assaults were taking place...
As for the police themselves, ,there should be no more until there are better ways of dealing with corruption: i.e. loss of pensions and jail time if they fit someone up. At present they always walk away into the world of early retirement. Quality NOT quantity is the answer.
89 Ms Fiona
Many, many people have had the usual problem of informing the police of a routine crime only to be told they are not going to do anything.
No-one has ever had a routine medical condition only to be told the health services are not going to do anything about it.
No-one has ever had the problem of needing a war to be fought and not having a soldier prepared to do it.
No-one has ever had a fire only to be told the fire service are not coming.
The Police deserve the disgust of the public. The employees are as much to blame as the system.
#92 Andy
I hate to disabuse you, but the vast majority of the honest, sane public are NOT disgusted by the police. They are frustrated, sometimes disappointed in the service, yes. But that vast majority appreciates that MOST police officers are only trying to provide the best service they can, hampered by nose-poking politicians and dodgy management, for their fellow citizens. Only criminals, juvenile anarchists and ravers like you think otherwise.
#92 Away you go, people complain about nurses all the time, and the fire Service is very popular with congenital moaners. And housing departments and social workers are all useless too. And did you see the 'story' about the shocking fact that only 3 teachers have been sacked for incompetence. Nope, you just have it in for the cops that is plain to see. Now you might have a point about failure to deal with low level crime but your presentation leaves a lot to be desired.
jennifer
I AGREE with you! It's a miracle! Yes, bring back Miss Marple - she, being a woman WILL GET THE JOB DONE!
What exactly are these "rest days"?
Are they days when the constables can get drunk or stoned or fornicate their brains out with fellow officers or what?
Hay same problem across the pond, how about less law for the scum to hide behind and mor freedom to protect our selves?.. bevgeo1717@msn.com
Hang about........what's all the fuss about an extra 1000 officers for then? Isn't it a better ploy to re-organise the force in sic a fashion that a bit more than an incredible 1 officer in 13 is on the beat at any given time???Why can't all the clever police uni-graduates put their heas to that problem before we start bleating about another 6/7ths of a new 1000 being behind desks. The trick is surely to get them out from behind the station counters and desks..........Blimey,.....I've just seen it.......isn't that just what Eck's being saying these past weeks???
Well you have to put this in context, if you assume there are eight hour shifts at any one time then only 1/3 of of the total police force can be working. So in reality while the statistic is quite poor, its not quite as bad as it sounds.
A couple of years ago I spoke with one former senior police officer. He described most of the current crop of police as lazy and moaning about paper work, when as he put in in his day they had no civilians to help with the office work and had to do the paperwork themselves. And this was a man who worked in two large Scottish forces.
There also needs to be an end to the culture of sick leave, that would go a long way towards solving some of the problems.
The SNP have pointed out time and time again that the manpower is there but have to be organised effectively and this report brings out how grossly inefficient our police system is. At the present rate with 1000 new police only 77 spread throughout Scotland will be allocated to beat duty. This whole shambles must be looked at before any extra money is spent.
Just a few years ago a family member of mine, after getting a 1/1 in engineering at university, couldn't decide between the police service or military service. He was given 2 days placement with each to decide. After the first day with the police service he announced it wasn't for him and when pressed, he said so much time was wasted doing nothing. Breaks were given top priority is most cases even during emergencies. Team working appeared non-existant, more like dog eat dog. There was just no comparison with the military whatsoever. I'm not taking bets about their present career.
#98 Here Today
The former senior officer was being somewhat foolish in comparing his days as a junior cop with today's. He needed less help to complete his paperwork because there WAS paperwork. A simple arrest and charge that, years ago, would have taken less than an hour, now takes hours. Who created the paperwork and the statistics recording? The senior officers, the 'support' staff and the politicians. All demanding that cops record what they do in order to demonstrate THEIR efficiency and get their contracts renewed. The poor dog that is the cop on the street is wagged by a very heavy tail.
So it's slowly coming to the fore that the SNP lied about the numbers of NEW police on our streets.
Over the years the SNP insisted that all other parties made a public apology when they got things wrong, but in their case they still try and con the public by using soft language in an effort to get themselves out of a hole created by their lies.
You just have to look at Salmond when he speaks or trys to sing to know he is a man not to be trusted. Salmond is in this business for one thing and one thing only, his ego trip.
HE WILL LEARN TOO LATE THAT PEOPLE IN GENERAL, NOT ONLY THE SCOTS GIVE YOU ONE CHANCE. SECOND TIME ROUND THE LIES BECOME MORE TRANSPARENT.
The SNP manifesto will be recycled time and again by the opposition and why not.
Now is the time for all opposition parties to be as ruthless towards the oily snake Salmond as he was to others over the years.
What are "rest days"? Why are 31.4% of police on rest days? To overcome writer's cramp, carpal tunnel syndrome, and repetitive use injury of their typing fingers?
#103
Nothing sinister or a wee perk. It's a day off, pure and simple.
103 Draco
I agree with you on that one. Lot's and lot's of admin was created in trying to ensure the lazy policeman actually goes out to try and thwart crime.
The policeman is so lazy he NEEDS to be micro-managed. You cannot trust these people, take your eye of them for one minute and they are straight into the sandwhich shop for a coffee or a snack.
104 Draco
The last time you put your flashing blue lights on was to cut through rush hour traffic at the end of your shift to get home before your fish supper got cold.
97, wake up, do you truly believe that a policeman who has been in an office for years is going to accept that he/she is going back on the beat.
NO CHANCE, they will take a retirement package and get a new job the next day if required.
With that in mind, instead of adding 1000 NEW police we will have 1000s less.
Ask yourself, what would you do if you were in that position. BE HONEST.
#103 They are days when you are not on duty ! All workers get them you know, not just Police. I think we stopped having to work 7 days a week around the same time as we stopped putting children down mines.
Surely police officers can record data verbally, using solid state or tape recording devices, and then give these recordings to civilians, who can complete the paperwork or enter the data into computers? Perhaps police cars should be fitted with recording devices so that policemen can record data while still in their vehicles, or perhaps they could even talk directly to data entry clerks while travelling?
So in spite of being an expert on the diet of police officers, Andy Dufresne still sticks to chips - plenty of them and on the shoulder too. Dear me, get a life and whatever makes you hate the police get over it.
109 Caora Dubh
I like where your head's at! That is good thinking, but too trusting of you acceptance of the reason crime is at an all time high.
Even with digital recording and a typing pool the same problem arise. The policeman is not prepared to do any work whatsoever, they are in it for the pay and pension.
Lazy lazy people.
#103: Okay. So 31.4% of policemen are taking rest days, but 2/7 = 28.57% of the week. So if policemen have exactly the same number of rest days as the average worker, only 28.57% of them should be off work. Are the other 2.8% bunking?
#113 D'oh they are shift workers.
I understand that the term "rest day" is enshrined in the legislation which governs the conditions under which a police officer is employed. Nothing more or less than that, it's a day off which, coupled to Working Time Regulations means they are no more or less advantaged than the rest of us. Except, of course, they're not allowed to strike, be a member of a political party, have a great deal of restrictions in what they can and cannot do and, along with other stories about the police in this paper, are more likely to get complained about, shot at, run over etc etc.. than the rest of us.BTW, if the figures truly encompass a 24 hour service, taking into account the specialisms in CID, Traffic and other squads, its hardly surprising that so many are on a "rest day" or day off at any time. And it might be better for their ability to police the streets if their training was organised on shifts rather than M-F, 9-5 thus getting rid of the need to relocate days off and shifts. Simple really.
110.
Most law abiding people would agree with all you say, however the more simple you make legislation the easier you make it for the Slick Operator Solicitor. Every day of the week I witness the army of the great unwashed meeting their SOS outside the court building laughing and joking at our expence. You would think that they were members of a club, well I suppose they are, and we are their sponsors. The only people not laughing are the terrified OAPs who have to use the nearby bus stop at their peril.
"The revelations will heap further embarrassment on the new SNP Government which recently watered down its election promise to recruit an extra 1,000 police officers. The SNP now claims the officers will be "additional", claiming they will be freed from other duties while keeping overall numbers stable. "
This is a result of year of systemic failure on the part of governments to ensure police resources are properly managed but ultimately, as the most qualified experts in their field, senior police officers must shoulder some of the blame.
I would say this is rather more of an opportunity for the SNP administration in that in light of this report they should be able to oversee the equivalent of several thousand new police officers on our streets, thus proving once again the opposition are merely passing water into the wind.
#109. Caora Dubh
Bureaucracies don't work like that, they do things the way they are done, because that is the way they have always been done. No thought required.
If a review were to be imposed on them, it would be to make the system more "efficient", ie; they would take your point on board, hire some low paid but more skilled secretarial staff to reduce the amount of expensive police hours required.
Then do what to them would be logical, make the expensive surplus to requirement cops redundant.
Only the SNP, in new broom mode is capable of changing this, I hope that they have the will.
#112 Andy
Your wind-up is getting just a wee bit tiresome. This is a serious subject if you'd care to contribute sensibly. I'm hoping it's a wind-up, anyway. Otherwise, I'm concerned that a person so irrational and twisted could, potentially, be employed as an engineer. I trust that, with your attitude, most companies will decline to release you from your state of bitter penury.
#117 Iain
I'm afraid the era of the independent-minded Chief Officer has passed. Politicians ( Police Boards) employ senior officers in their image. If we have a bunch of bean-counting politicians with no experience at the sharp end of life, who do you think they will give contracts to? And this feeds its way down the mangement structure. It's the same in all the public services.
#120 You are spot on with that comment, it is the same in all public services. Why single out the Police ?
If you read the SPF report on their website these figures are from the Association of Chief Police Officers and were released in 2002, so are five years old. Hardly shocking "new" figures.
A simple piece of arithmetic will show that to keep one policeman on the beat 24 hours a day, you need a manning level of 5 to 6 policemen. This does not allow for Sick leave, training, court attendance or any other justifiable absence from the beat, other than legitimate leave.
This is an appalling piece of gutter Journalism, which show a remarkable disregard for the truth by deliberate distortion of the facts to make a political point. There is a case to be made; but to treat the readers as idiots is not the way to do it. Shame on the SOS
I know of one Scottish PC who has pursued contact with his children through the courts for some years and who now has at least eleven weeks contact in total. He says he can have as much time off as he wants!! Somehow his police duties have to be fitted around these fixed eleven weeks. No wonder we are short of bobbies on the beat. He can't be the only one.Dedication huh!
In these days of work / life balance, flexible working etc etc surely this guy has the right to see his kids?
The paperwork issue is a factor though, arrest reports could be a fraction of the size, all the statements are sent to the court anyway, duplication, wasted hours. It was a lot simpler in days of yore.
Don't know why this is a presented as embarressment to the government after all this is exactly what Alec Salmond was saying last week when proposing to change working practices and strategies freeing officers for front line duties.There is no point in creating another 1000 non operational police officers .They do find enough time and manpower as post 4 says to police road tax and sorn enquiries also the police need like many others of us in the public sector to really put the public first and change some methods of working.
OK 122, perhaps there needs to be a balance.
However, if the police are expected to compile reports faster in order to get back on the beat the SOSs like the guy who gets "stars" off with motoring offences because the report contained a very minor error will continue to gain the upper hand.
Our police (Iam not one) need our full support and if the courts keep allowing the guilty back on the streets, the police will get totally cheesed off.
We need more police and longer jail sentences and if the prisons are full to capicity I have no worries.
One thing is certain they are not full of OAPs, they are full of thugs and low life.
When all else fails we can use out of use offshore rigs to house these "people", each to be issued with a fishing rod so they can supply their own food and if they wish a home visits they can swim.
No comments form Social Workers please, I feel they are people who are in the job as a last. resort.
Surely the SNP's additional 342 (official SNP figure quoted at Aviemore conference) will make a difference?
On my annual sabatical to my home town this year which is Largs. I found out that if you called the police station there, a girl answers the phone. There are no police on duty. The nearest police are in Ardrossan.The thought occured to me, although it would never happen. "This would be the perfect place to rob a bank".
131 Waspy.
For the record, police officers are NOT paid a shift allowance. Those on shifts are paid the same as those working Mon-Fri in an office, and those who are cited for court on a rest day, have it cancelled and have very little say ( compared to the old days) in when they can recycle that day off.
This shocking fact torpedoes all those on the other thread decrying the SNP over 1000 new police officers. The priority must be to address beat / frontline policing not to hire more pen pushers.
To all the Unionists and the journos on this rag shouting about broken election pledges - I say, where are you today! Keeping your heads down no doubt. You all look like total idiots now and once more the SNP Govt have been proved to have their priorities right. Sort out front line policing before they get a single more officer or we will just pour more money into a bottomless pit for very little if any gain.
This proves once more to me that the socialist mantra of throwing money at public services WITHOUT reforming them and make make them more efficient is totally flawed, misguided and niave. Point well made about the Edinburgh tax collectors (I mean traffic wardens). Its all about priorities and really tackling crime simply is not a priority whatever the spin doctors say.
Lets be honest here, how many of us would agree to pay 1p in the £ extra tax which could be used for the police only?.
Most of us pay no attention to paying more for drink,taxis and the like, but when it comes to providing for our own saftey,no way.
Everything has a price and another £10 per MONTH would go a long way to helping us restore law and order if we are to believe that more police on the beat is the answer to this problem. £10 is about what we spend on WEEKLY newspapers which mainly reports on the crime we are trying to stamp out .
I have read all the above comments and now realise that most do not know anything about what the police do, the hours they work or anything about crime.
If you see police officers eating doughnuts or anything else for that matter its because most do not get proper breaks. Our shifts are long and days off are cancelled, we have to court on our days off most of the time for no extra payment just a day in the book which we cannot get off because of manning levels (not a PC term i know).
The hours are anti social and most of the shifts are longer than 9 hours.
A cop on every corner would not reduce crime, stiffer penalties at court is the only thing that can do that.
Yes there are lazy cops out there, there are lazy people in every walk of life.
Above we've been compared to, firemen paramedics and nurses, the only ones who get my sympathy are paramedics who have to deal with all sorts of nasty people with no protection.
Most here appear to slag off the job but we're the first people you call when anything in your lives go wrong.
Don't judge me till you've walked a mile in my shoes
#130 Wini
Excuse me if you thought I was being abusive. I was merely confronting Andy's petty and cliched prejudices. As for police working hours and annual leave. I suspect they're no more and no less than the average worker. 40 hours per week (averaged out) before overtime and 20 odd days off annual leave, depending on length of service. I hope that's not too privileged for you?
One thing that always worries me is crime statistics.When you hear about Doug McThug asked for fifteen thousand eight hundred and sixty five other offences to be taken into account (they have been solved only because he confessed presumably in exchange for a reduced sentence )then it make a nonsense of even compiling them.To what extent does this happen? Or is this somethng that has crept into my subconcious courtesy of Holywood ? I did say Holywood by the way and dont have a speech impediment.
Whatever the explanation for all of this ,the figure is alarmingly low !
POlice do a job which is essential.WE need to give them the resources or we pay in another way!I hope its not human life!
If you want coppers on the beat then remove the parties who have neglected this for years Its simple enough .
Like on most of these outlets we end up slanging one another instead of attacking the real problem.
It goes without saying that if we agree, that crime is a major problem then that is what we should be addressing, not who has the most important job or the best pay, hols and conditions.
If everybody thinks they can do a better job than the person holding the position why are they not in that job in the first place?.
Nobody, the police,nurses,medics, shop assistants, taxi/bus drivers or Joe Bloggs should be subjected to or tolerate crime of any sort and the only way we will combat such situation is by more/better policing and MUCH MORE help from the courts.
I don't buy the regular call that, Sir my client has a drug habit and he feeds that habit by housebreaking.I have a habit, I eat but I work to feed my habit.
Wake Up. I feel there is a need for thoes on the bench to use public transport, walk the streets and the like, WITHOUT A POLICE GUARD and play a role in the real world, then and only then will they hand out real punishments.
I believe a drunk driver should be banned for a minimum of five years for a first offence (OR FIRST TIME CAUGHT I SHOULD SAY) AND IF CAUGHT DRIVING DURING THAT BAN THE TIME SHOULD BE CONVERTED TO A PRISON SENTENCE OF FIVE YEARS. NO MORE ONE YEAR BAN AND IF YOU ATTEND (BE A GOD BOY/GIRL) A COURSE YOU WILL GET THREE MONTHS OFF THE BAN.
Almost every week I read of such drivers being on a second or third conviction with some having held a licence for a very short time indeed. No more plea bargaining, no insurance= one year in jail, no licence=one year in jail, failing to stop =one year in jail, that should mean a total of three years with no time off. If we all take into consideration the amount of such crimes in your own area and my system was in operation our safety would be improved and our insurance would be reduced.
I can hear the drums of the "Liberty" beating,Oh my
Huh!........do not know WHY all the complaining.
Here in Canada if the police DO arrest anyone for a crime...they are usually out, before the officer can complete the paperwork.Here, we do not hold criminals responsible for their actions..or consider victims..or worse yet FUTURE VICTIMS.Is not it the same way in Scotland where the bleeding hearts hold contol?
You can have ANY NUMBER of police on duty..IF you do not back them up.. it does not matter a rat`s ass.
Imagine the unlikely scenario of 1 in 13 people appearing for work in hospital, teaching, or if fact any other job! Very obvious disasterous consequences would ensue. I'm surprised that a 1 in 13 police presence has not had a similar effect, or has it? By the way how many of the 1 in 13 police are involved in policing motorists?When in Rome recently I was amazed at the police presence on the streets. I don't know about their system but there seemed to be a police person within eyeview all over the centre of Rome. In our towns and cities to even see a police person is something of an occasion..now explained by the 1 in 13 statistic.It seems that our "system" needs a complete rethink to free up police for police duties.
There is one thing the Engish have that is far superior to us and that is there polis. Our cops are the biggest gang in town and act accordingly, backed up by a "justice" system that punishes you for trying to fight for you rights (fines increase if you defend your self and lose). Has STV ever caught a Glasgow or Edinburgh cop ever smile during a fitbaw match? Look South on this one. Hitler would be proud!
I would love to see 2 polis saunter up Langhome St. Or even easier Burnanside !
"Only one in 13 police are on the beat in Scotland"
And it shows! Crime, litter, drunken jobs, etc etc
Though..........plenty cops hiding behind bushes ready to pounce with parking and speeding tickets!
I worked with a construction company with about 30 people which included the owner his wife a surveyor and 1 office girl. How would that company got on if only 2 construction workers turned up each day?
#145 and 147# If we had a police state, things would be much easier. The police could go anwhere, do anything, shot anybody, and cut crime at a stroke. Instantly. Well, where have I heard that saying before. Now, that's bound to please you and everybody else.
So Bella Goldie was going to put an extra 1500 bobbies on the beat.
Does that mean the Tories were promising to recruit another 19,500 new policemen to achieve this figure?
Do we have enough police stations for that number?
Basically put. #148 Wake up and smell the roses. Pampered and remote!
...and another thing #148 ...you wouldn't last 2 minutes in a scheme!!
With scotland being a much more sane and safe place in comparison to England - it’s no big worry - the only thing I ask - is why do we need all these police officers - if they are not on the street - get rid o them and save the tax payer money -
and llok at the cops down south - they don’t appear to be much good exceptin’ for shootin’ innocent people and refusin’ to accept it’s wrong !
Agree with everyone who feels the statistic is not very useful and even potentially misleading. More relevant statistics would be:
1) number of police per capita, 2) number of police in street-beat positions, 3) number of police in support positions, 4) number of police in management positions,5) percentage of workable vs paid hours for each group (workable time being paid minus holiday (which if it is 30 personal plus 9 public is 15% of paid time to start with) and training, so in essence workable time is the maximum potential time they are actually available to do their job which I would expect to be about 75% and maybe as low as 70% if more specialised training such as firearms training is required),6) percentage of utilised vs paid hours for each group which then takes into account the more managable things like sickness, breaks, etc. If you assume 2 15-minute breaks per 8-hour shift, which is what the rest of us would expect an are obligated to recieve, then this will be at least another 6.25% of a paid day that a police officer is not working. Throw in 6 sick days per year, which I believe is much lower than what it actually is in the police, that is another 2.3% of paid time they are not working. For the average worker, utilisation is about 66% of the time they are paid. If breaks and sickness are not managed properly, you could very easily loose another 5% to 10% of paid time.7) percentage of productive vs paid time which in the case of the police assigned to the street-beat, could be defined as the amount of time they are actually on the street rather than doing administrative tasks like paperwork, etc.
This kind of statistical analysis would not only paint a clearer picture for everyone but would help draw out what the real issues are and where the true inefficiences lie and make it difficult for police rank and file, police management and politicians to hide.
Oh and, yes, in this modern day world w
I don't see the problem. You didn't already know this? It's simple mathematics!
For every 100 police officers, 10 are above the rank of constable, 80% are on days off, 17% are on holiday, the rest are split between 3 shifts. So you only have about 3 out of 100 actually working. That's the price you pay for 24/7 coverage.
Oh - I almost forgot - 2 of the 3 working are either stuck in court or doing endless paperwork!
You want more police on the beat - pay for it! For every 1 beat copper, you have to hire 15!
