what finally admitting they were wrong and about time too.

Clucking bell, who'd ever 'av Adam and Eve'd it!

Scotland has been diminished by Labour. Oh how they have betrayed Scotland. Shame on them ...shame on us for trusting them.

I'm curious as to what sparked this seeming volte-face. Labour's spokemen/women, e.g. the Alexanders, have long been forecasting utter ruin after independence. Why this now? And more to the point, what do the oppos at Holyrood have to say about this?

Good on the SNP and it is about time we got our independence from the UK, we always new we could do it, the tide is turning in favour of the SNP

WELDONE SIR ALEX SALMOND

note to sub-editor;Article published by mistake-please collect your p45 on monday.

#1 karin m

Karin says "what finally admitting they were wrong and about time too."

No Karin, finally admitting they've been lying to their back teeth for years.

This while they oppose a St Andrew's Day celebration as being Scottish propaganda? What a bunch of chancers.

Oh! And well said number 5.

Hasn't anyone seen the Herald's "discovery" of Scotland's real financial condition?

See "Scotching the Myth" at http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1804171.... and also today's follow-up, "Public figures back full debate on Scotland’s place in the UK" at http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.1807...

Actually this is not news. Previously, no Scottish broadsheet would touch it with a bargepole. But the true facts were actually known by the UK government since 1975. Professor Gavin McCrone, Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, has known since 1975 of the of the UK Government’s duplicity about Scotland’s finances. As Chief Economic Adviser to the Secretary of State for Scotland, he prepared a secret report, “The Economics of Nationalism Re-examined”. The report was suppressed and only came to light in 2005 when the UK Government was forced by law to release it. The report advised the then Labour Government that an independent Scotland would have a massive budget surplus. The report is at http://www.snpyouth.

The most recent detailed analysis of GERS-2005 was conducted in early 2007, when that report was published, by Niall Aslen, an experienced accountant, who used the Government’s own published figures to expose the flaws and demolish the arguments of the GERS analysis. Mr Aslen's analysis, "The Great Deception" is available at http://www.scottishenterpriseparty.org/the-great-deceptio....

Excellent news. In the great tradition of the converts becoming the greatest zealots, we can look forward to a Scottish Labour Party campaigning vigorously for independence in no time at all...

Once Scotland has her freedom back, the first order of buisnes should be to get all Campbells out of the Highlands.

How can you "re-establish a bond of trust with the people". when in the past that "trust" was to lie and lie again? Once a liar always a liar as my old grannie used to say.

Spin, spin spin, the labour dervishes. Who on Earth would trust them?

London Labour uber alles

Since when did the Scottish labour Party ever discover how to become ARTICULATE. They can't even spell it! Here is to INDEPENDENCE.

The latest instructions from down south will be announced by the submissive little rat David Cairns at a London Controlled New Labour Party meeting.

This is no more than a knee jerk reaction to the latest opinion polls including YOU GOV. The poison party who would lie and cheat to their grannies on their death bed is just putting up a false white flag in order to even remaining on some sort of plus figure in the polls.

This is just one more Victory for the SNP who have proved themselves as the only honest party who stick to their principles and word. Just listen to the bitter twisted negative attitudes spewed out by Numpties at question time.

Since May 3rd the SNP has turned around the downward slump in pride, honest government and the hopes of so many Scots that WE control our own destiny.

This admission is just another exposure of the Unionist lies that have been forced on the Scottish People by parties to the Westminster conspiracy to mislead us. We still have to finish the job of at a minimum getting FULL REVENUE CONTROL, FULL POLITICAL CONTROL OF OUR COUNTRY. We can then decide if we want to work in partnership with the remainder of the UK and contribute funding for any benefits we may benefit from. The First Two which come under the the financial and political are Fishing and Oil based on the original Scottish Boundaries at the time of Union. The oil companies can now move their head office to Scotland. All taxes and revenues from Oil and Gas should be paid directly to the Scottish Government. All Negotiations with the EU on Fishing should be on the basis of we control it and we consider it a natural resource the same as what is mined or grown in Europe. Scottish Fishing should be by Scottish Fishermen and Companies which remain 51% controlled by Scots. We can then sell it to whoever we consider suits us best and at Scottish Prices.

The bottom line is the fight is miles and miles away. The SNP will remain in Government no matt

Well, well, well who would have thunk it? With any luck labour in engerland will support independence for the poor, put upon engerlish who apparently have been subsidising us for yonks with our own money and set the wee souls free to live happily ever after in engerland or should that be englandstan?

Of course, Labour 'finally admits' this due to the work of the Scotsman (sic) in its long and honouable campaign supporting the case for independence and exposing the lies of the unionist parties...

Oops, sorry, just stepped into a parallel universe there!

In the meantime help the battle to stop Heart of the Capital being vandalised
www.eh8.org.uk

#11 - the great mystery is why the London so-called nationals haven't been able to produce any analysis worth the name showing the case that is made by them about Scotland being an economic basket case and 'English taxpayers' paying for public servces in Scotland.

Well, not such a mystery really, given the well-known facts from George Rosie's earlier Scotching the Myth research, backed-up by what we now know about the UK Treasury's dependence on Scottish oil revenues to keep the UK solvent in the 1970s and 1980s. The Herald's article yesterday is an update of earier work. As far as the English 'quality' (sic) press goes, the old journalistic maxim 'never let the truth get in the way of a good story' applies to any article that shows Scotland in a bad light.

And still the unionist parties lie through their teeth to the Scottish people at every election campaign, demeaning us as no-hopers needing to be bailed out by England, purely for their own self-interested personal advancement. I long ago decided that the 'case' of the unionist parties - 'you're rubbish because you're Scottish, vote for us we'll make sure you continue to be rubbish - was definitely not worth voting for.

Shame on them!

I am afraid this is just the beginning of all the 'other' parties stealing the snp policies..The first being more devolved power Labour can never accept any outcome which takes away their seats at Westminster.

Will it work the truth is to stop any bandwagon towards Independence (bearing in mind only 23% for the idea at present). They do not have to get a major change in the 'voting' public's perception of the Benefit of being an Independent Nation.

And my contention is some serious consideration is being taken in Westminster by the labour party to keeping those Scottish seats.

As the old call sign S.O.S (save our seats) has gone out. I expect some serious somersaulting and many various political contortions from the Westminster Government.Probably with much English/Scottish gold attached.

Now the 'MAD' snp supporter wing will claim they are winning the argument. But they are already on board the 'Independence boat and can be discounted from the coming 'changes' it is mr and mrs normal Scot who will decide the final outcome.
And they have far more sense..Will they choose Independence? that we will all have to wait and see.

"We are destined to live in interesting times"

#7 Richardinho ... :)) Best smile of the day so far!

#24. BB ... we certainly do live in interesting times. Labour stole the Tory clothes to get in power, then the Tories stole the Labour clothes, followed by Labour stealing the Tories latest clothes again ... and now they're stealing the SNP clothes??

Meanwhile the Libdumbs have been caught naked, trying to get into bed with anyone daft enough to think it's a good idea! There's a name for people like that. Yes ...... politicians!

So will Labour now admit that their £5000 tax bombshell was nothing more than a LIE?

As a former Labour voter i now despise that party.

As long as I can remember Labour and other unionist parties have been peddling the myth that Scotland could not survive without the UK and it has taken an SNP victory to reverse this policy. If the SNP had not won Labour would have continued on this course. This can only be good for Scotland whatever happens.

#24 - this is pretty sad. How can you accuse the SNP supporters of being MAD when a 1/3 of the country voted for them, are 1/3 of the population MAD?

Mr Cairns will warn the party has to find a way of articulating "an innate pride in Scotland".

------------------------------

Thats going to be kinda hard for you, Mr Cairns.

What are you going to tell us, "We've stopped lying about Scotland, you can trust us now?"

As usual from the card carrying Labour executive toilet key holders at the HootsMon the story is burried so far back in the paper and online , the people barely notice it! Or notice how we have been lied to for many years by this paper and their journalists.

29,

AM2

Dont be so ridiculous. You know that they used a very subjective interpretation of these (highly questionable) figures to create scare stories. In May they claim a £5,000 tax hike; in November its not an issue. A country's viability does not hinge on one set of figures or change in 5 months.

Side stepping your patronising tone i can guarantee you sir that I know more of British economic history and the relative strengths and weakneses of the economic argument of independence than you. Perhaps you should ask yourself the question why do you seem to delight in attempting to prove that the country could NOT survive independently.

#29 - the guy feels robbed by labour like me and many other ex labour voters, not really a slogan?

Goto E4 and watch the deal. See how the old and proper labour membes thought of the Tories Dressed as a Socialists.

#26 - does make an interesting point about the whole breed of people in modern politics and their need for personal self interest before policy and effect of.

This is WHY I voted SNP. Out of a gaggle of rogues they seem less corrupt and more straight talking.

One wonders what level of penitence Fr Cairns will have to submit to for this indiscretion.

Nice to see Mr. AM2 still frothing away.

Oh the emotion if it all!

#33 - AM2 used this "5000 BONBSHELL" many times in defence of his party affiliations to Nu LAba or is it Un Alba(ooh a slogan!)......

So AM2 are you willing to admit you actively lied about these figures in the full knowledge they were not in any way recent or relevant?

This board awaits your appology with side splitting laughter.

33 Allan

Perhaps you should ask yourself the question why do you seem to delight in attempting to prove that the country could NOT survive independently.

-----------------

The wonderful AM2 even has a website dedicated to PROVING how Scotland couldn't survive.

Thanks, AM2, we really appreciate your efforts.

No, REALLY.

I am going to vote for the Labour party -

No, that was a lie, but I have probably passed the first part of a Labour interview to join the party - lie, lie and lie.

Off to the airport. Cheers all.

#1 Finally admitting they have been LYING all the time.

41 - The first question would be, Would you put personal and party glory above that which the people expect you should do?

AM2 is a big proponent of this line of party selection.

44 Archie McPherson Squared

as rRegular readers of these forums without axes to grind will appreciate.

-----------------

The irony of it all.

3rd November 2007:

Labours pokesman says: "Scottish Labour does not believe that Scotland would wither and die as an independent country."

5th April 2007:

Gordon Brown said that if the SNP formed an Executive "at a stroke, monetary discipline would collapse and fiscal discipline would collapse too".

"Even assuming the highest possible share of North Sea revenues to Scotland and oil prices being high, the revenues are simply unable to plug any fiscal hole."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007...

#46 - You havent answered the question at #37 You've done your usual runner when someone points oot your blatant lies!

OHH he's ran off to remove the website at #39 !!!!!!

38

AM2,

Base economic figures such as GERS are indicative figures with such high levels of caveat to render them little more than an academic exercise. This fact is acknowledged by the authors!! GERS is only acknowledged as the best exercise we have - and a poor one it is as given that significant sections are based on estimates and assumptions.

That you choose to accept the most pessimistic interpretation possible says little for you sir.

I love it when the Truth hits hime SQUARE(D) in the face

"...and re-establish a bond of trust with the people"

How do they propose to do that when they have admitted to lying for 40-years to the electorate; when one half of the Alexander Brothers actually stands up and demand an apology TO HIM for the election fiasco.

We need to get rid of these Toom Tabards for ever.

I take it this was NOT front-page news.

Where are the up-to-date opinion polls when you need them

#54 - NO , That would mean Scotsman and the Labour party have lied and expose it too more people as a lie? Better to burry it as far as possible in the saturday edition.

"Speaking to Labour's youth conference in Glasgow, he will call on the party to "renew ourselves, re-form our policy offer and re-establish a bond of trust with the people".".........."re-establish a bond of trust"????

Nae chance. Good for a belly laugh though.

46 AM2

Anyway, I'm off to have an offline life for a while.

-----------------------------

I'm frightened to ask.

Wow! So Cairns finally admits to lying to his fellow Scots, in order to ingratiate himself with his colonial masters, allowing them to rule Scotland remotely to the detriment of his own country.
In most parts of the world, this is called TREASON.
The word VICHY springs to mind.

I think now is the time for the Scottish Government to set up a South African style Truth Commission

Can you imagine it?
Were you aware of the McCrone report and its financial implications for your country, and did you collude with others to subvert the truth to the detriment of your country, in an attempt to destabilise Scotland's democratically elected Government.

Wendy:- We were only trying to hide it from the SNP. If it wasn't for them we wouldn't have had to. Therefore it's all the SNP's fault, and I want to know, what is the First Minister going to do about it?

Alex should now propose Holyroods own Traitors Gate, with name plaques on spikes.
"Spike reserved for ??????" Hahahahaha!

What is AM2 website ? I Fancy a larf I bet he's editing it like (H)ECK right now!!

36 AM2

Your question is easy to answer.

Firstly, "capital investment" is bricks and mortar; I assume you mean revenue income.

Secondly, you are taking figures from one source and then linkng to another i.e. Oxford Economic and then SNP figures. The SNP, as far as i am aware, have stated that the absolute worst case scenario at present is that Scotland is in budget balance and consequently, their calculations do not use this as a starting point.

As for any spending cuts for diversion into the oil fund, if applicable at all, can you tell me any political party who spells out detailed policy 10 years in advance?

In future when you try to look smart on a website try actually using consistent figures - using different sets of figures for an economic analysis is like using apples and pears - pointless.

I now repeat my earlier question - why do you seem to delight in proving that an independent Scotland is not viable. Is it true you have set up a website? I find that truly pathetic.

It is now beyond dispute that it is a political argument because, no matter how much the Unionists muddy the waters, Scotland is presently a very prosperous nation and, potentially, could be even more prosperous!

However, the democratic wishes of well over over three quarters of Scots, who wish to remain within the Union, must be respected at all costs.

IF, at some later date this Unionist majority should be swayed in favour of a majority voting for a sovereign Scottish State then this outcome should also be acknowledged through the democratic process?

Devolution is now the constitutional staus quo but whether or not this eventually leads to a separate
Scottish State is still open to question?

However, IF at some later date another government, of whatever political persuasion, should ever attempt to amend, or indeed, abolish the Scotland Act and recall powers to the Centre, then there can only be one inevitable outcome!

#61 - if Am2 lives in Glasgow. It must be really refreshing to know the two faced contempt with which he holds them?

#63 - the word Fifth Collumnist springs to mind.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/briantaylor/

Even brian admits the figures. Scotland 3rd in Europe would be quite a leap to funds. AM2 and other Brit Nats can argue all they want but the bleating is fear made manifest.

They are not really arguing that Scotland will not be stronger it is fear of a weaker UK. The unionist supporters and more importantly the parties will try to twist and turn to prevent or delay independence. An Independent Scotland is a pariah for all concerned. The moderates will suddenly think more powers damage limitation as predicted.

They neither want nor believe in more powers for Scotland and will be playing catch up. They will grudgingly try to give what most Scots may have accepted (been fobbed of with) prior to the election.
Their intransigence will show through. All the better for the rest of us.

61 Allan

Sorry to spoil your Saturday but here is the AM2 link...

http://amglasgow.blogspot.com/

Read it and boak.

Given that Scotlands Economic case for independence is now generally considered as uncontestable lets not forget about the many, many other positive aspects that Scotland will have.

Some of the political ones include:
a) Ability to have our own defense and foreign policies and ability to "decide" to have Nuclear weapons or not. Ability to decide which wars to participate in.
b) Ability to represent Scottish interests in all areas to any World recognised body or organisation.
c) Clarity of accountability and responsibility for all Economic, political, and social concerns. Especially to go our own way, where issues over education and health clearly shows that we have different priorities.
d) Can negotiate with the rest of the UK as a strong European partner with many common interests instead of a silent one with little or no say.

A stronger Scotland will be of great advantage to the rest of the UK especially the NE. The forgotten part.
IMO Independence for Scotland will be better for everyone in the UK - except the Brit Nats I suppose.

67 Dave M

Thanks. AM2 - oh my Lord!!! Who is this guy?

@36 AM2

this has been done to death AM2 and you know it -

Here are 2 scenarios in an imaginary oil-rich country...

1 - take oil revenue and squander it in its entirety propping up an economy and a military in order to 'punch above your weight', knowing full well the oil won tlast forever

or

2 - take a finite resource that is worth a load of money, and save the income from part of it to build up a fund for the future when the oil runs out... giving a rather large income flow into perpetuity.

Now, consider what Labour and the tories have done in the UK as opposed to Norway and other nations who discovered oil? Which one is scenario 1 and which is 2?

You simply never accept the rational answer to 36 being that the 6bn is simply not frittered away - it doesn't have to be a cut that affects the vast majority of Scottish citizens. We'd happily give up 6bn per year if we controlled the entire north sea oil revenue for this small but rich nation.

I see theres a few new folks on the board who have never seen AM2's tireless unionist propaganda machine in action!!

#67 - that made very sad reading. As Dave M at #58 said "I am frightened to ask" regarding what he does in his spare time. He is probably away down Sauchiehall street Stalking folk and does the blog and does newsthread lie dessemination at other times.

I can only think he has contept for all around him by the xenophobic drivel he disseminates.

Just to remind people what labour said in 2003
here is a link to a leaflet put out for the 2003 Holyrood election
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/aspect/aspect2003/lab/a03lab...
Such classics as 'The UK is Stronger together, weaker apart' and 'There is a £ 6 billion black hole at the heart of SNP's plans to divorce Scotland...'
Another classic from the 2003 election was a leaflet put out by John Home Robertson (remember him)
in which its states 'State of the art new edinburgh Royal Infirmary' Funny how he didnt actually say that Labour would use PFI that would result in saddling Scotland with 1.2 billion in debt to pay for a hospital that only cost £184 million to build!
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/aspect/aspect2003/lab/a03lab...

#71 - He has disapeared "Offline" as his lie/propganda dissemination machine is receiving direct hits regarding all his lies coming home to roost.

#74 - ERI a lot of brown envelopes got shared on that windfall for big business and councilors lifestyles.

.
"Labour finally admits that Scotland could survive 'independently"

Congratuations "Hootsmon" another negative article heading.

...and what would be so difficult in having a article headling that stated;

Labour finally admits that Scotland could prosper independently?

Well for one thing Labour are not capable of leading any nation to prosperity,far less Scotland,independent or otherwise.

Labour are not capable of being truthfull or accountable in anything of worth as another unfortunate event unfolds of Labour self serving platitudes of lessons were learnt and we are where we are, so lets move on shall we.
Labour responsibility?

For a duty of care?

Aye, Scotland could survive independently but I would prefer it to be prosperous and Labour are not capable of supplying such an administration that would be fit for that purpose of being best value in their best pratice as events have proven.
.

#71 - Should that not be "TIRESOME"

#77 - The Scotsman is making it evident , by wearing it's stripes on it's sleeve to unionism. It is only encouraging their readership to seek more balanced reporting. As an electorate, Scotland is pretty smart. Able to see through the guff and choosing other avenues when the guff ranchers fail to listen.

What a shower of spineless wonders labour really are.

Unable to make a policy and stick to it because they believe it is the "right thing to do", they blatantly poach ideas from anyone else in the hope that the electorate will be stupid enough to vote for them again.

Experience shows how little regard labour actually has for Scotland, none of that has changed.

Some more Labour classics from the 2003 election
Tom McCabe http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/aspect/aspect2003/lab/a03lab...
Bristow Muldoon
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/aspect/aspect2003/lab/a03lab...
Wendy Alexander
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/aspect/aspect2003/lab/a03lab...
Rhona Brankin
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/aspect/aspect2003/lab/a03lab...
Cathy Jamieson
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/aspect/aspect2003/lab/a03lab...
Des McNulty
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/aspect/aspect2003/lab/a03lab...
Jackie Baillie
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/aspect/aspect2003/lab/a03lab...
Sarah Boyack
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/aspect/aspect2003/lab/a03lab...
Hugh Henry
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/aspect/aspect2003/lab/a03lab...
A regional leaflet from 2003 http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/aspect/aspect2003/lab/a03lab...

All leaflet images are clickable so you can have a right good read at what was put out in 2003

Just to highlight once again AM2's Glwonig hypocrasy. Now that he has been proven wrong. Their is currently a swift removal of articles , blgs and and the entire month of may from his Unionist blog.

Glowing Hypocrasy

http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/aspect/aspect2003/lab/a03lab...

THE LIE MACHINE!!!!!!

Hypocrisy even!

Sorry Bob :)

#85 - no worries I canny spell or type in the correct order to save myself.

Rather a spelling mistake than mistake one of AM2's lies as a truth ;-)

GETTITUPHIM!!!!!!!!!

#33 ALLAN (GLASGOW)

Sir, It's not in doubt that AM2 is, by far, the biggest union numpty ever to appear on these posts...........but your pompous assertion that YOU know more about british economic history and the relative merits of the independence case do you, (or the cause we jointly espouse), no service whatever.
It's PRECISELY that kind of overbearing points scoring (which no-one can prove/disprove 'cos "guarantees aren't wortha fig on these blogs) that has brought the labour neanderthals to their present terminal decline.
Rise above that statement, apologise for your temporary stupidity, and get back to the rhetorical kicking lumps out of labour, They deserve it, ...and isn't it just such GREAT fun !!!

The "Donald wheres ma Trooserites" are out in strength today. Don`t believe anything until you see it in writing. Excellent piece of spin by Gordon, well done.

A large serve of humble pie for Royster, AM2, Pete from Paisley, Duncan from Edinburgh, longshanks, et al

This is very worrying. Labour having spent generations trying to keep the Scots in poverty for their own selfish career prospects know realsie that Scotland is in fact rich!

I for one want the figures checked, if Labour agree with them then something is certainly wrong they would not recognise correct statistics in a million years!

Has someone in Labour headquarters laid their hands on a abacus?

Does Wendy have more than ten fingers and ten toes?

Where will this all end, an intellectual leader who finally learns to count?

What's next ...a realisation that Trident costs more than a packet of crisps?

Can't wait!

#89 - I notice AM2 is back in his dress wearing alter ego roll.

#90 - Aye thats Nu Laba for ya. Self interest and political careers come first.

The Scottish department of the westminster and chelsea labour party are quite happy to propogate lies for years.

Wendy Alexander should either come out and back these figures or resign as she clearly has no oath of allegiance to the Scottish parliament it's ethos and credibility or the Scottish people in her roll their.

Dane M,I wish I had'nt looked!
And Bob D,what do you mean when you say some of his blogs have been removed?
You did'nt by any chance save them,so that you can cut and paste at will did you???
I've been trying to find back copies of various newspapers for the week preceding the May election where the general tone was Alex Salmond is the anti Christ but to no avail.
I'd also like to get my hands(preferably round the neck!)of one Tim Luckhurst who wrote great swathes of crap about Scotland and Independence and how he would have to move to England were it to come about.He has of course become a lecturer in Journalism down south and also writes in some English newspapers.Apparently he was a speech writer for Donald Dewar and an editor of this publication, no surpise there!

#94 - wish I had them.

AM2 works at hootsmon and regularly gets posts remioved on the sly when he's gone OTT or someones pointed out he's lied. Once post highlighted then it gets removed. But a lot of people still remeber what he rants, canny erase that.

"renew ourselves, re-form our policy offer and re-establish a bond of trust with the people".

Its a bit like the school bully turning up to wanting to be 'mates'.

Labour be gone. And take all your dead mens' votes with you.

99 An English voice...

Its about the lies and deception, dear boy, over decades.

Its about the deliberate subjugation of a nation and despite the nation being capable of being self-sufficient, being told that we are incapable of running our own affairs.

THAT'S why we rant and whine.

We really are going to have to improve security! Does this new attitude towards the desire for independence in any way sound familiar? Didn't our young leader take this stance at the time of the last Holyrood Elections? Dear oh dear, this is the latest raid on David's policy portfolio, following the hijacking of our IHT reform and our non-res proposals. This political mugging really is verging on the criminal and it's not doing Brown's lot any good, because we know it, they know it and the electorate knows it!

It's a sure sign that an administration is completely bankrupt of ideas when it has to resort to blatant pilfering! First it was our policies, now it's our tone towards the constitutional debate in Scotland! As Labour have finally twigged, the best way to deal with the hateful Nats is not by hurling abuse but by quiet and reasoned debate which at least recognises that there may be a case to be made for independence.

I hope from now on that New Labour posters will take heed of the new tone which is required. Headcases such as The Master are actually hastening the onslaught of independence by their catcalls of "Nazis" and "fascism" towards the Nats. I'm just glad that that exteremely nasty troll rarely posts at the weekend - he's so out there that he seems to have built up his own Nat/Tory conspiracy theory and, like most rational poster, I am finding it extremely hard to control myself when I come across his hateful bile, which just seems to splatter all over the threads like cyber vomit!

#40. Gregorf / 8:33am 3 Nov 2007

I am going to vote for the Labour party -

#41. Gregorf / 8:34am 3 Nov 2007

No, that was a lie, but I have probably passed the first part of a Labour interview to join the party - lie, lie and lie.

Gregorf you are an stupid troll fooling nobody everybody and his dog knows if you want to join the labour party.

You first join the Conservative party and when you become too right wing..Anti unions..anti Democratic anti everything. And then get thrown out of the conservative party..Then and only then can you be enrolled into the labour/conservative/libdem/ and now/snp party.

If any party was missed sorry take it as read you are really part of the labour party..well you policy will be that's for sure if if gets any votes.

'it'

#103
he has got his own website for f##ks sake how many AM2s are there

Toryboy

I am finding it extremely hard to control myself when I come across his hateful bile, which just seems to splatter all over the threads like cyber vomit!

-------------------

You may have to go and change your tweed underwear.

At last Labour have seen the light and recognised that you cannot debate on the economics alone. It is the political and social aspects of independence that matter.

102 An English Voice: the English quite rightly resent the unfairness that devolution has created and we are confident that Rifkind have finally come up with a workable answer to the West Lothian Question. The only reason that it is opposed by Labour is that they are intent on depriving us of the influence over English affairs which we are due. Why are Labour running scared at the prospect of our establishing a stranglehold on purely English matters? It is by no means certain that we would, so why all the huffing and puffing?

It's also a total red herring to say that Rifkind's proposals will hasten independence. This is about fairness within Britain and is only opposed by Labour because they're running scared! Running scared of democracy! Say no more!

#59 "In most parts of the world, this is called TREASON. The word VICHY springs to mind."

Is it any wonder that some people detest certain elements of the nationalist movement?

#62 Excellent post Lachie.

Some people here are confusing the economic policies of an independent Scotland with the cost of SNP manifesto policies.

The criticism regards the SNPs manifesto is still justified - that's why Swinney is struggling to produce a budget. Making promises on back of an envelope calculations that rely on unobtainable "efficiency gains" and non-existent savings is not too clever in my opinion. The SNP are finding out the hard way (as parties have done before) that being in opposition and being in government is quite different.

That is not doing Scotland down as some would put it.

That is doing down the wish-list manifesto committments of the SNP.

Summary of the case made by AM2: the Union has reduced Scotland to an economic basket case, so Scotland needs to keep the Union. Now I defy any of you to find fault with that.

107# Peter

Any remaining benefit coming from the Union would be enshrined in our EU membership anyway.
Hence all the scare stories re Scotland having to reapply. Aye right! Brussels would be rolling out the red carpet for Scotland to join. They could make a new one out of Westminsters old redundant Red Lines.

112# Nauoan
Wow! Even you are actually sounding a little bit proud and dare I say......Nationalist?

113. Well, I hope, that is as long as a federal UK can also finally stem the tide of immigration and Islamist influence, which is slowly diluting British identity all acorss our land, or there will be no Britain to be maintained.

115# Nauoan

I take 121# back. Come on...... It's said tongue in cheek.
But hey,......The allegory is not without substance!

Do we ever hear you say the same of unionists such as AM2 and his like?

Labour have known about scotlands economic health and wealth for years. They knew it in 74 and 75 if you read cabinet papers and they still know it now. All that is happening now is that they are changing tack trying to convince the voters they lost to the snp that they are the party that will deliver independence or more powers for scotland. They wont because they are liars. Would you beleive someone who said everything i have told you before was a lie but now i am telling the truth. No neither would i.

#124 AM2 - tends to be a bit more subtle.

I have critcised those whose language is intolerant and bigotted for whatever reason.

And it did not sound like a joke - for some reason you came across sounding just like Guga or Hen Broon.

I don't think i saw the words he will on Labours behalf apoligise to the people of Scotland in the report, wonder why?

How like Labour, now we are losing power, we really must think of changing, so we can get it back!

One presumes Mr Cairns will be speaking through gritted teeth if not with a forked tounge.

Come to think of it all these unionists shoud also be apoligising to people south of the border too, if they had just shown the right attitude at least back in the seventies, Scotland would have been prosperous and there could have been a proper grown up attitude between our nations.

What are we to think, that Mr Cairns and his ilk will admit they have been getting it wrong all these years, which would be an admission so great that no one should ever let them control Scotlands economy again, or that they have been lieing, in which case no one should ever trust any of them with any type of public office again, what a tough call.

How do others think he (and other unionists) will try to wriggle out of it, I think we are going to hear a lot more of the 'not could we but should we' type of arguement disguised as a debate.

Do I hear the sound of heart strings being plucked some where in the background?

#123 - You did not get anyone interested in your point about federalism. Yet you repost and repost the question. Nobody is interested much in you and your XenoPhobic bile. You are clearly here to agitate for your BNP masters and the only thing you sow is animosity.

111 An English voice
"And don't forget that the vast majority of Scots want to stay in the UK, 77% in the last poll."
Where was this poll conducted Glasgow/Lanarkshire perhaps?

128. Peter, well, I didn't change my mind on a federal union, I have supported such for some time. It is the only way to give the english a fair deal with devolution, and stop Labour using an in built Scottish majority to forces policies onto the English.

With support for the SNP and independence at a 10 year low, the SNP would do better to go after federalism because independence just ain't going to be, even with the SNP grabbing at support from radical Islamists. There was a report last week which attributed most of the SNP increase in May to Islamic support - clearly the SNP is "paying back" with its terrorist friendly approach now.

Federalism should also mean each region of the UK being self supporting to stop the English subsidy of SNP/ Labour socialist policies that are only affordable on the back of English tax payers.

Oh, and please check the dots after my moniker - the childish SNP drones are using an ellipsis (Alt special character) which is one symbol, I have three separate dots after my name.

126# Nauoan

It wasn't a joke. Its an allegorical illustration. Some unionist politicians have ignored many key truths for the advantage of their party and personal careers. Some have even colluded to withhold the truth from us as a nation in the most despicable way. That is inarguable fact!
It is very likely we are a less well developed and poorer nation for that.

Yes I am intolerant of this, but in no way am I biggoted, in any form.

#135 - we have been talking about your miss quoted figures at the time of the election in May. Where you peddled your lies so frequently and venomously.

Your just one big re- edit.Just like the LAbour party

#135 - AM2 - Like the 500 tax bombshell GERS figures etc

5000 , fag ash filled keyboard

133 An English voice...
That will be westminster that has turned us into a quasi-Islamic state then?
And er in the event of an independant Scotland there would be no UK and no UK armed forces.

ARE ORANGES CHEAPER IN SPAIN THAN IN BRITAIN?
This question, posed yesterday by a media correspondent querying the unfairness of the cost of fuel in Scotland- Western Europe's only oil producing region and one with it's own refinery and oil capital, Aberdeen-being far greater than in the rest of non - oil producing Western Europe should become the rallying cry for all opposed to Brown's stealth taxes.

Ah Bob. I see you have similar problems to mine!!Mine is in need of a good dust too!
If you all continue to respond to an English voice you will continue to get racist accusations/abuse.
So leave the poor fool alone.
I have said the same about AM2 but you all just keep going.
The fact that the chap has a website in an attempt to prove everyones economic answers wrong says it all really!

#148 - We are seeking your appology not more facts and miss represented figures.

Have some dignity man!

EDWARD 81
Would this be the same Tom McCabe who at the Holyrood 'off'earned the headlines
'NAMED,SHAMED AND PROMOTED' ;THE TRUE COST OF TOMMY TWO HOMES' ; 'FIGURES DON'T ADD UP' when he tried to claim a second home he wasn't entitled to?
The same Tom McCabe who wanted to rule the roost over every other MSP?

am2 only a 95 percent confidence interval why not 99?
A 2.5 percent margin or error? so the true result can be between 20.5 and 25.5.

The survey was also done in 2003 so is four years old. You make no mention of the sampling methods or margin or error in the other studies so your posting is quite frankly pish. Or perhaps others would prefer lies. Is misrepresntation lies? I dont know.

I do know i wouldnt trust anyone who attempts to misrepresent studies to back up his view.

>Labour finally admits Scotland 'could survive independently'<
When will the "Scotsman" admit it?
Or will they leave it to the "Herald"

#24

I think its more a matter of if rather than when on independence as I get the impression your suggesting, but even more so I think its a matter of how. 23% is only one opinion poll and is the lower range of where opinion polls tend to show the support at. I think it has peaked around 53% previously.

Initially it seemed people wanted to see how devolution would work out before considering going further. I believe people now want to see how an SNP government would work out before considering a step further and in that regard the SNP are wise to be looking at near the end of their term for a referendum and if this administration holds out and does a good job for a full term I would expect a second term for them.

Labour, Tories and Lib Dems may rant about broken SNP promises yet John Swinney has not yet announced his spending plans to Parliament. It could turn out the SNP Government are now playing down their manifesto pledges specifically to draw this kind of criticism. How will it look for the opposition parties in three years time if we have even 900 extra police officers or primary class sizes of 20? Possibly like the SNP Government being returned for a second term with close to a majority.

Even without "independence", the fiscal autonomy concept the unionist parties are warming to (and I think is inevitable if we don't opt for independence in the short term) once established will soon leave people questioning the role in Scotland (in an EU context) of a UK Government that really only has full powers over defence and foreign policy, particularly when it adopts a nuclear defence policy i.e. trident renewal and shows unwavering loyalty to dubious United States foreign policy which Scotland appears to be (and Scotland's elected representatives have certainly shown themselves to be) in the main opposed to.

160 bob he does this all the time its very tiresome. He never used to put confidence intervals in either. I guess he thinks it makes him look clever. It doesnt he just looks stupid when he posts studies that are four years old and tries to say they are the "latest".

patriots today is VE day

VICTORY IN ECONOMICS that is

we have to find all the liars and their quotes prior to May election and republish them.

Just as in Europe when collaborators had their hair shaven after VE day we need only republish what were known unknown lies but which are now known known lies

lets start with the PM at post #49
5th April 2007:

Gordon Brown said that if the SNP formed an Executive "at a stroke, monetary discipline would collapse and fiscal discipline would collapse too".

"Even assuming the highest possible share of North Sea revenues to Scotland and oil prices being high, the revenues are simply unable to plug any fiscal hole."

perhaps its a truth and reconcilliation we need for Cairns and AM2 :-)

VICTORY IN ECONOMICS

VE DAY

#160 - Indeed he is the king of eejits. I can only hope he gets his misely few pieces of silver.

166 - I reckon The entire Scottish wing of the Labour and conservative parties should come out and appologise to the Scottish people for keeping them in the dark for so long.

The lib dems i wouldnt bother with. i reckon nobody lets them in on anything!

101 Toryboy: you've changed your tune! It's going to be the reaoned approach to opposing nationalism from now on, is it? Tell us all why your original Toryboy moniker was deleted and why you now have to resort to a variety of monikers then! As a Northern Irishman who now lives abroad, I have to say that you are nothing short of a disgrace.

#176 - they would both sit their in the middle of the commision and say it was all an illusion and they didnt exist!

#167 sorry for my Dyslexic fingers!

Saw the headlines and had to read this article. I really should say the comments.

Wow! talk about switching, they did a 180 makes me wonder if it is just another political trick to gain votes.

49th state I agree with you on the Campbells.

Between your politics and ours I am having a ball reading. Much better than the comic section.

As the nats have hijacked my username and are blaming me for the all the racism and bigotry 'I' have posted....new username.

Let's see who's been using my name here.

And the answer is 'lots'!

Ayrshire Scot and co have been busy.

#172 - a faster turnaround than a spinning top! hypocrites and fools the lots of them! An English voice is even claiming his usernames been hijacked!

165 because you are quoting figures that are four years old. You are not quoting the actual survey. To do that you must provide a link to the actual survey. i.e. a citation. My previous remarks also stand why not 99 you do realise what using 95 percent confidence interval means dont you. You obviously dont know what the 5 percent figure represents do you. I note you dont dispute my figures over the 25.5 percent. As is said you misrepresent. i realsie the survey was started in 2003. I have told you time and time again that you must provide a link to the actual survey not just a link to the people who did the survey. Anyone else who clicks your link can clearly see it says 2003. Thats why i included it.

173 know that for a fact do you. Prove it. I think your just spinning. You have been found out so you invent some spurios accusation. Next thing you will be telling us okay you made that up.

174 bob couldnt agree more.

This whole thing is a political scandal. An electorate and entire region of people told blatant lies for years by successive governments.

APPOLOGISE YA SCUNNER!

Yes, quiote a few SNp cyber drones have been using my old user name on here - please ignore any comments form me before 173, thanks

#176 - Aye even denying himself ........Wait a minute....New Labour did that as well!

#179 - how were you hitting the bottle then and all posts cant be approved as readfable until you've halted the shakes?

Isnt it funny how even though labour are now saying that scotland can economically be independent we still wonder what are they up to. It just goes to show how much we distrust what they say i suppose. Maybe thats the plan. If we disagree with everything they say then they also think that we will disagree with them saying this.

182 i dont by the way. I agree with them. eek agreeing with the labour party.

#67. Dave M

"http://amglasgow.blogspot.com/
Read it and boak."

I did - and I did ...

He surely cannot be doing this for personal enlightenment or perverse "pleasure" alone. I've said it before (as his massive and growing archive has probably recorded) and I say it again: His many hundreds of weblinks plastered all over these forums look more like the agenda of an interested (provocative) party, not just those of an individual with too much time on his hands.

To the headline: Is this an attempt by disgraced Labour in Scotland to re-badge itself as the party of the people? Not a chance.

183 because you are not providing a link to the research methods used in the actual study.Do you even know how a proper scientific study should be set out. Where is the methodology which is a key part of any study. If you do not include the methodology then you are talking rubbish. You must cite your references to be taken seriously do you know how to do that. You must provide a link to full details of the actual study. That does not mean just the results. Again i note you do not dispute my questioning of your 95 percent confidence intervals and the 2.5 percent. I also note you failed to answer my question again. While i have answered yours.

#39

Aye, Dave! It's a FREE blog from Google. A sad and appropriate solution for this long-serving member of Labour's cut and paste crew!

What a waste of webspace!

179. Ayrshire Scot! Grow up!

183 AM2 and another thing those are two seperate studies you are quoting. To be a follow on study they would have to re interview the same sample which means the sample used was not in the follow on study selected randomly.

All studies to avoid bias must use a scientific method of selection to make sure that finding can be generalised to the population at large. Again your talking pish.

AM2 #42

"Where Labour got it wrong was in pushing the "tax bombshell" idea."

I seem to remember that your shoulder was applied to that wheel with great relish!

You obviously know very little about statistics AM2 it shows. If you in anyway knew anything you would know you have to provide a link to the full article. Obviously you only have a laymans knowledge of the subject. Not good enough i am afraid not good enough at all. You may fool some of the people but you most certainly dont fool me.

188 EV

for the last time, it is NOT me who is impersonating you. You are not worth the effort.

Look at yesterday's thread - it was me who pointed out that you were being impersonated, and me who pointed out how. I wish I hadn't now. The person who is impersonating you admits on there as well.

Now drop off you sad sad creature.

hehehehehe

#153
yes the very same!

Am2 i could rip your quotes to shreds if i wanted to. I just cant be bothered they are just so pathetic. Dont get me wrong it is quite clever the way you misrepresent. However at the end of the day your still misrepresenting whereas im not. Your problem is you dont understand truth. You know the saying it has a ring of truth. Well your posts dont have that. People look at them and think i dont know if i can beleive that. They think it might be true it might not. The thing is people question your posts. Have you never read something and thought that makes perfect sense. How about this question.

Why shouldnt scotland be independent?

Not you note Why should it?

This then brings you to the next question.

If scotland wants to be independent what is stopping it.

Answer that and you will know why we are not.

What labour are attempting to do with their volte face in the above article is to split the referendum yes. Into those who want more powers and those who want to be independent. That is what this little exercise by Minister cairns is about. Expect loads of news reports that play to the social, cultural and political aspects of scotland staying in the union. Because they now know they have played their economic hand and lost. Did anyone see the complaints by labour about celebrating st andrews day. Cultural is the heading i would put labours attack on that one into.

182 Karin m
My opinion is labour are furiously backtracking as they didnt have the foresight to see that by putting down Scottish nationalism they would stoke the flames of English nationalism,Theyre now trying to put the genie back in the bottle. Federalism is a non starter as all parts of the UK would have an equal say on matters of national importance (Cant have that can we) unless of course they use the same definition of equal as was used in the act of union !(Gulp)
Nu labor have completely, utterly and somewhat spectacularly ****ed up,And have lost all credibility.An independent Scotland is the only way forward. Just my opinion

#152 - A lack of dignity is watching you attempting to salvage yours by way of insulting others who have the cheek to oppose you. Your comments at #192 and everyone else pretty much pointing out your the grossest liar and biggest bairn on these boards.

I am glad your lies are coming to light and more people like tuning into the AM2 daily eejit show. Wondering what mince are you going to speak today?

It's the political version of "the day today"

Whats your views on the consumption by kids of the drug "CAKE"?

LOL

195 again no link to actual survey. You dont have access to the raw data? You mean you dont have access to the actual survey? Why the heck are you quoting it then. I dont actually care who produced the survey. I will question any survery no matter who wrote it. Also you admit your figure of 23 perecent was not technically correct. Yet you misrepresent it as being the actual correct figure. As I said laymans approach to stats.

All you had to do was provide a link to the full survey you havent done that and obviously are not going to.

Now begone youve wasted enough of my time today.

202 so why are you quoting them if you havent read the full survey. You must read the full survey to make any sense of it. Do you even know anything about confidence intervals do you know what using an 85 percent confidence interval means. You dont even understand that you have just made yourself look stupid AGAIN. I see no need to gloat by the way. I think its just very sad that someone who obviously has some limited intelligence does not use it!!!

#202 - You are so funny today, I can just imagine you hammering away at your keyboard. Like a frustrated chimpanzee.

You have been proven a liar, you try then to deffend yourself with erronious figures facts and disputed blogs that have had their contnets half removed since theyve been pointed out for the lies they are.

But still you insist the worlds square! AM squared is right!

AM2 Im not even going to answer you anymore on this thread i couldnt possible kick someone when they are that far down. I unlike you have scruples.

#203 - GERRINTHERKARINM!!!!!!!!

AM"2 types furiously in his crusty y front, after pretending to people earlier he has been out and not errasing blog entries.........."

He says: IT's Not true, it's lies the world is square, the catholic church said so and heres the report from 1296......

That galileo chap is an SNP cyber activist! And his reports not that up to date eether.....

#205 - AWWWWWWW but were aww enjoying him choking on his fibs?

207

Oh dear, another cyber thrashing for AM2 it seems

Am2 one more thing these fantasies of yours about me in school uniform must stop. First you invite me to a highschool chat site then you you tell me to see my teacher. You are naughty please stop it.

Hello ayrshire. I now know the great power of advanced punctuation. mucho fun to be had i think...

188 Cherio for now. idiot.

36 AM2

I have demolished this fabrication before and will do so again. The SNP have set no target for the value of the oil fund. It will use excess revenues. There is no target - when oil prices and production allows size-able transfer to the funds, that will happen. If prices or production mean smaller transfer to the fund in other years, that will happen.

The SNP gave an example, at the time, on what the oil fund could be (Norway's is projected to be c $250 billion next year).

Most other large oil producing countries, even states of the USA, have oil funds for the future. Scotland is odd in not having one.

Please link to the SNP policy which says the fund has a target or would ever use funds for public services to top it up? you can't because it is another of your lies.

#214 - from the man experienced in trying to dig himself out of holes.

#211 - AM2 - Youve still not answered why and on specific subjects youve lied? So stop trying to deflect from your non answering of questions.

#209 - Am2 is getting a gubbing , yet in true AM2 tradition he calls black white. by rubbishing your response and everyone elses. Nobody has backed him up, he can't even back himself up.

Am2 you go on about your blog entries being 2005 but youve been a member of blogspot from december 06

HA!

208 I am indeed truly sorry to have spoiled your fun bob. However to keep going is the equivalent of kicking a puppy who has just peed your best rug. You know hes wrong but you know its intelligence is limited and it really does not understand. More over it is incapable of understanding at this particular point in time. it is doomed to repeat its mistake until it accepts that it must listen to make any sense of what its being told. AM2 is incapable of listening to what other people say. He presents his own veiw point again and again and again because he truly beleives he is right. He just cannot see that to learn you must be open to new ways and new thoughts. I fear Am2 is destined to a life of "peeing the rug"

215 AM2

EV accused me of being his impersonator. and is so graceless and childish he does not withdraw it, even when others admit it was them - was me that pointed out he was being impersonated and how last night - but does the fiendish cur thank me, no - what say you?

And did you see his posts about pooh in food (on Scottish news therad page 4 or 5 from a few days ago I think thread about woman putting pooh in food, posts 19 and 20) - still think I "invented" his anti-Islmaic views?

218 Another bare faced AM2 lie exposed Bob!

#218 - so you try to tie an innocnet person in with cyber smearing to prove your right? this person is giving you a gubbing and your crying i want to take my ball back>?

BAIRN!

215 Im sorry more lies where did i say i was going to impersonate other contributors i was talking about putting characters into my posts like so.™

I insist you apologise for yet another lie.

#220 I read EV and his rants, denegrating scottish people to some jeremy kyle exibits.

#223 - Am2 has only 1 tool left and that is to attempt to smear and discredit those who contradict him.

You seem to think that impersonating people is something that is fun i dont AM2 maybe english voice should in fact be looking at you.

#221 - Indeed like he's trying ot reverse engineer his lying he's reverse engineering time!

#228 sorry a couple of months late but you said earlier the blogs are all 2005 so even so you've answered directly now that you joined 2007, even later than DEC 06

BOOMB! and AM2 shoots of his foot!

Well AM2 didnt your mammy ever tell you that liars always get found out in end.

#229 - Now AM2 plays victim. Giving you a gubbing like scotland gave england 1967.

Your a wee scaredy man,

AM2 whimes to moderator: "They said something remotely machismic, I am being bullied. Wheres a moderator when you need their strong arms....."

Anyway AM2 thought you were going to have an "offline life". Dont let us keep you............i know we are all wonderfully entertaining and all. But really you really should start practicing what you preach. Its the first step on curing this compulsive lying habit you have.

225 AM2 - that was an example at a given oil price at the time. Could well be alot higher now - I asked you to state where the SNP said there was a target for the oil fund and that funds would be diverted from services, as you stated (lied). You invented the "policy" of diverting funds - the SNP would use excess revenues as they are used in Norway and other countries.

You must get over your tendency to fabricate and confabulate when caught out is inaccuracies AM2

AM2 what do your colegues laugh about when your not at work?

Just a thought?

#234- AM2 is now making out this post has all the power to get the web admin of SNP into work on a saturday.

M8, Newsflash. Yer no that important!

I see some "voiding" in the near future ayrshire. Lets just hope he does it off the rug :)

234 AM2

can I just ask, as you are fond of asking me to comment on other posters output, what you thought of English voice's two violent posts the other day (I will kick the cr-p out of you Ayrshire...) and also what you think of his "Islamists putting pooh in our food" post on the thread about the woman who did?

#237 It was too easy it seemed to pull this fib up, But I back you up. The figures are as old as AM2's rhetoric.

239 Karin M

I still don't understand these weird powers of "voiding" posts AM2 has invented and arrogates to himself. It would be helpful if he could maybe post the rules to whatever psychic drama he is playing out on here, so we could all understand them.

Anyway Am2 about my apology you owe me.

243 Yes AM2, be big enough, unlike that violent and dangerous sociopath English Voice (dearly departed) to apologise.

Ah the problem is ayrshire that what with AM2 being a misrepresenter (at 99 percent confidence intervals) that we wouldnt know if the rules where accurate.

#240 But he's a victim, He can say wholy offensive crap but if anyone mentions 1967 or something remotely proud or deffensive of scotland their "fascist rascist bully boys"

AM2 is AM 2 FACED!

#243 - AM2 Appologise you LIA! Appologise to scotland and the whole electorate for your irksome dissemination of lies!

Right im off to get me one of them "offline lives" for a while. In short i need milk for me tea. Catch u all later

Am2 (hugs) and watch out for newspapers on the nose of course not the reading them thing.

I think it's fundementaly in his nature notr to tell the truth. Like one of those robots in robocop can't kill a policeman.

He would need to ask for a fact chip to be installed from unionist HQ

Can anyone get rid of An English Voice cos him and his alter ego on that other web page are a pain in the arse?

247 AM2

I see you decline, for the third time, to link to the SNP policy of setting a target for the oil fund, or diverting funding from non-oil revenues to the fund, as you stated. Why? because it is another of your fibbing, fabulating, jive turkey, nonsensical lying inventions.

And now you do not have the grace, caught yet again in a lie, to withdraw it.

Shameful, AM2.

AM2 - see 240.

I am interested in your view on "English Voice's" use of threats of violence in political discussion, and his views on Muslims who work in catering?

Answer please.

251 - I think he has had another cyber breakdown and is gone for a while. He gets violent when mocked then disappears to cry.

#251 - I personally think the DTs wear of and the bevvy kicks in and he's away for a wee sleep to dream about tanks crossing into poland......

VICTORY IN ECONOMICS DAY

VE DAY for SNP

AM2 for you the war is over mate
its 1945 all over again

#255 - when you blamed the internet for conspiring to lie against you by removing an SNP link? Your own pomposity and self importance are stagering.

http://www.archive.org/web/web.php - AM2 see if you find it with that.

#255 - you said SNP removed it an you got a blank yahoo page. Yet still you have not came up with any scorching evidence against the SNP

I know you think if you shout fire enough someone may stop and listen to your imbicilic monodrone and hold it true for all but a momment. Until the next post directly after shows you up for a g0bsh1te

#258 - English voice was voicing xenopbia before his username was possibly faked. Shows how desperate you are for support when the only support you can muster is an Ultra right wing anti islamist BNPIte

As far as I can see Labour are not withdrawing any of their claims made pre the election. Labour seem to want their cake and eat it.

On the one hand they are still claiming massive deficit figures, and yet are trying to sound positive that Scotland could go it alone. But surely these cannot both be true at the same time. This new Labour position sounds worse than their last one.

On one side of their mouth they claim Scotland receives massive subsidy from England, so much so that independence would be crippling. On the other side of their mouth they claim positiveness that Scotland could go it alone.

Basically they are still on the 'dire warnings' songsheet - but throw in meaningless positive vibes to those offended by their negativeness. It's a bit like a guy having two girl friends and professing supreme love for both of them - trying to appeal to both camps at once. Dishonesty/spin=Labour.

As to Labours dire claims:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1804147....

258 AM2

as you know, because you were there and were corresponding with him, English voice used threats of violence and anti-Islamic statements well before this fakery nonsense,

Interesting you are the first to squeal about hostility on here from Nats, but no not take the opportunity to codemn violent fascism. Interesting. It will be noted the next time you trot out some "Nat" poster quote you have probably invented yourself.

The New Labour Numpty Party (Scottish Branch) are finally admitting that they have been lying to us. They also need to apologise for their lying. Further, they need to get their headquarters in Westminster to apologise for all their lies and deceit over the years.

They need to accept that independence is the only way forward, and to embrace that fact. They also need to establish a genuine independent Scottish Labour Party, i.e. totally independent from Westminster, and work towards Scotland gaining its independence.

#265- Well we know where AM2 gets his daily song sheet from......

#267 - we could ask for a rebate as part of their reparation for lying?

.
guid yin, Mr Bob and yerself as weel,Ayrshire.

Yon AM whits his name does mair spinning than a peerie.

Nae wonder ra Loon's confused and disorintated wae being that dizzy an all.
.

I pop in and still see the waste-of-space IRA sympathiser that is Ayrshire Scot, is ranting on about the posts HE submitted under my name.

You're a joke, Ayrshire Scot. If you have nothing mature or sensible to add to the debates on these boards (and when do you ever), kindly go and play on the Playstation and let the grown-ups talk in peace.

AM2 you have usllied your cyber name I reccomend you incrementaly come back in another style of writing!

I offer these potential user names: AMaLIAR, AMAFIBBER, IWILLSTABINTHEBACKFORSELECTION ,HITLER,GOERING, or the much apropriate VICHY

#271 - as cowardly as AM2 retracting his lies. Your xenophobia was evident way beofre you started trumping your username had been hijacked

264. Show that post now.

Back that up now.

#274 - Hows this a great post insulting other users without offering any evidence or fact?

EV how many usernames do you have that your now even calling yourself boudica? Is this your dresswearing alter ego?

277

Leave me alone. I am having another breakdown. I want my mummy.

275

Admit it, we did write what Bob said, didn't we. Help, help, the other English Voices are pushing me down..... help...

#276 You don't offer any evidence or facts - you are in fact a troll numptie.

271 EV

how many times - look at yesterday's thread - it was me who points out that "you" were fake and how it was done. The posters impersonating it you admitted it there and on here,a nd are clearly not me. That you are now suffering paranoid episodes and seeing Ayrshire Scots everywhere does make me laugh though.

Now, please admit that you did use threats of violence because people disagreed with you - you are clearly a fascist and given to violent, probably drunken, tantrums. I can just pictire your florid, booze-flushed napper as you rant and dribble spit.

I will link to your violent outbursts unless you have the good "English" manners to admit your oafish and thuggish ways.

281 NAUON

here is a link to some of EV's violent threatening posts:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1734112007#c...

275 - he didn't even say please. He is a rude drunken violent dangerous sociopath, with sweaty palms and an angry red napper.

Hehehehe - my, what alot of fun you have provided today, my jolly old china, chocks away, pip pip. You really are a giggle. Idiot

So Labour finally admit that Scotland can survive as an independant nation.
So what the F**K have they been doing before!?!?!
Have they just been too stupid and incompetent to do the numbers?
OR
Have they been LYING through thier teeth for thier OWN political benefit?
Either way it just shows that Labour is NOT TO BE TRUSTED!!!!
FYI
Option for 'futures' on the NY and London Stock Market are being sold for $125 a barrel for December 2007. that means alot of people in the know ,think that $125 a barrel by the end of the year is very likely.
The Oil revenues figures that are quoted are for oil barrel prices of $50. This means that the current $90+ is more likely to rise than fall and actually that means SCOTLAND IS IN PROFIT RIGHT NOW!!!!
Anyway it should not be about if I'm a few quid up or down ,it should be about national pride and making our own way in the modern world.
Here's to an independant Scotland 2010!!!! Up the SNP!!!
All you unionists ,if the union is so good why not give up westminster and be ruled from Brussels ,I'm sure it can only benefit the English people to be part of a greater union!!!

Again, lots of bombastic claims by the SNP supporters here. Claiming to be speaking for the majority, if not all, of Scotland. Again.

Lets remind the independence-obsessed about some facts:

1979 European Parliament Election 19.40%
1984 European Parliament Election 17.80%
1989 European Parliament Election 25.60%
1994 European Parliament Election 32.60%
1999 European Parliament Election 27.20%
2004 European Parliament Election 19.70%
=SNP vote at 1979 levels and dropping.

1979 General Election 17.30%
1983 General Election 11.70%
1987 General Election 14.00%
1992 General Election 21.50%
1997 General Election 22.10%
2001 General Election 20.10%
2005 General Election 17.70%
=SNP vote at 1979 levels and dropping.

1999 Scottish Parliament Election 28.70%
2003 Scottish Parliament Election 23.80%
2007 Scottish Parliament Election 32.90%
= 'an upswing in support for independence' or a 'protest vote'?

2007 Scottish independence poll shows only 23% in favour. The lowest for ten years
= Looks like it was a 'protest vote'.

Cue the fake English Voice as I'm off to watch the rest of the football!

(283. Why are you constantly linking to posts clearly not submitted by me? If I posted them, I'd stand by them....but I didn't and I don't.)

"VOTE LABOUR, we're not lying anymore"

An interesting slogan, but is it honest?

Dear oh dear.

I wonder what it was that forced the Labour party to dump its 'trash Scotland' policy.

What I have found most humorous about this humiliating climbdown is the response of the Labourite groupies: 'we never said that Scotland would not prosper'.

They must really think that people are dumb.

#286 Labour is running the UK with a 36% popularity vote. The last independance poll I saw was in the Scotsman(That well known pro independance paper har har) and I believe it was 80% + in support of independance.

AM2 has lost the place.

290

OK Cuthulan, but I'll take you more seriously when you can spell "independence". You are a muppet and a disgrace to the cause.

286 EV

but dar old chap, your violent breakdown, your threatening posts and the most colourful of your xenophobic posts were days before you complained of anyone faking your ID. Indeed, your violent posts on the thread I link to happen half way through your "contributions."

Do tell us, old crocus, do you ever have the feeling that lots of people are laughing at you? You certainly must have the feeling taht at least one person is laughng at you, alot?

286 Are you aware that constantly reposting the same post is against Scotsman rules (see "spamming" and "flooding") - as this is the 8th time you have pasted this identical post I feel I must report it, and urge others to do the same.

My, my. Labour are most definitely in trouble when they finally bow to the inevitable and admit what they have denied for decades, that Scotland is more than capable of standing on her own two feet economically.

A newspaper journalists used a very interesting word the other night on TV, he said that now that Alex Salmond has the benefit of the PULPIT he will be able to get across the message of Home Rule more far better (I'm paraphrasing of course....what am I a tape recorder?)

And of course, that's what Alex is so brilliant at doing, getting facts out into the domain or highlighting general Scottishness like the St Andrews Day celebrations.

And since he has begun shining light into dark corners, especially concerning the economic argument for Independence discussions and research has erupted, in this case leading to the Herald Front Page article the other day which itself lead to todays massive about face by the Labour Party on the economic question of Independence.

I'm so glad they sacrificed David Cairns on this particular alter of humiliation, he's such a brazen liar that's it only right that he made to tell the truth for once.

290. How does that tally with the SNP and their principal policy? Surely if support for full independence was 80%, then the SNP would have received far more than 33% of the vote in May?

I fully expect support for independence to increase as the SNP continue to roll out the anti-UK rhetoric but I seriously can't see there being massed calls for independence for a while yet, especially if talk of federalism continues.

Federalism will bring the much lauded fiscal autonomy which will let Scotland keep its oil income to start Salmond's fund. Plus it will silence complaints from us lot about excessive funding of Scotland by English taxes.

Good evening Ayrshire.How is the English choir today?

English Voice:Are you talking out of your colon?

#280 it is unfair picking someone up on his lies? Re iteratting the point just likeAM2 does? Is this an AM2 ruse backing himself up by another username?

A lot of people have backed me up? I am not a troll but an ex albour voter Wwho does not see the point in Labour and it's lie mongers. The SNP may not be great but at least they can count

My evidence is in that statement. SAtatistical accuracy!

GO NOW TROLL!

296

Your post makes some sense.
You can't be English Voice...

300.
Up ye Meths.

300 Hiya C the L™

yes, full fiscal autonomy that includes oil wealth would be great next step - it would put to rest the lies aboyt Scotland's economics, and access to the oil wealth would allow transofrmational infrastructure projecsts and excellent service provision.

However, I think alot of unionists will oppose full fiscal autonomy for the very reason it will will allow transparanent analysis of Scotland's economic potential.

I would urge EV (if it is he) to contribute his thoughts to the National Conversation.

302 - Ah, let me congratulate you on the authorship of the "Great Deception" - a great piece of work, and has sparked much interesting debate.

300. That's because this is really me....until Ayrshire breaks into it again.....maybe I shouldn't use punctuation!

Federalism is the future. It works well enough in the US with Texas keeping it's oil wealth and New York keeping its financial wealth, so it should work quite nicely in the US of GB & NI. Ah, maybe stick with UK.

A good bit of economic competition between the four 'states' will do us all good too.

Just need a voting system for the UK Parliament as England will never be broken up into nine more states.

305 EV

are you operating on the AM2 principle that by repetition of a lie it will take hold? Look at yesterday's thread and today's -the persons who were impersonating you admit to it, and they are not me. You are clearly an unbalanced individual who has developed a fixation with me.

Why would Scotland need to stay in the UK if we had access to our oil wealth. Fiscal autonomy will end your spurious claims, debunked yet again in the herald, that Scotland is subsidised. The only reason you could venture why we would stay in the UK would be defence or foreign affairs - as most Scots are totally opposed to UK foreign and defence policy (characterised by illegal war in Iraq and proliferation of new WMD, Euro-scepticism and Xenophobia) we would be better fully independent.

302
Welcome to these posts Niall,hope you will add more.

#302 Niall,

Tried that link but didn't get anywhere so where else can I find the great deception?.

#299 You accuse him of lying etc but do not actually quote any evidence whatsover - do you see now why you might be mistaken for a troll?

Look at other nat posters - even the likes of Hen Broon - they all try to make a reasoned argument.

You sounded like a Nat version of Kimba or Kranal.

Scotland is on the march with the SNP

This is a Historic day for the SNP, the union is a dead end road to lands end.

The SNP are a motorway to Heaven

Ma . ma ma mutt, ooos ooos ma ma mutt, rank
ma ma ma mutt, a jobby, ma ma ma mutt ooos

#302 I made the point earlier about how some (a small number) of Nat posters deliberately include comments that show their own bigotted prejudices.

We get David Ciarns described as "Father Cairns" or as the "ex-Reverend Cairns". You yourself will be used to being tarred as an orangeman just because you come from Northern Ireland not to mention little thing's like Peter's repetitively boring use of "Armaaaaaaaghtool" to describe you - done deliberately to mock a particular accent methinks.

This constant tarring by other means is a pain in the arse and I wish some here would actually deal with the facts instead of indulging in their own narrow bigotted view of the world.

But then pigs might fly first . . .

With a Labour manifesto on their policies of an Independent Scotland presumably just round the corner, all the other parties will have to follow suit !

Great.

They'll have a lot of wriggling out of previous lies though....

The Northbritishman will presumably have to take a Pro Independence stance also ?

Can you imagine the whisky bottles in the debating chamber after the pary celebrating Independence?

This is the best news of recent.

OOooooooooooo I'm so exited

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-DcNPFWhbk

What we are seeing is an attempt by Cairns to position himself in a post-Brown Labour party - booted out by the English tories - he'll hope for a place on the Scottish political stage when we walk away from Westminster.

When is AM2 going to realise G.D.P. is not Gross National Happiness?

If you look at the world in a purely economic perspective, that makes you a Wan***

well said

296. An English Voice:

Would your federal UK give Scotland a seat at the UN ?
Would it give Scotland a seat at the European table ?
Would Scotland have a voice and a vote of its own in both ?
Would Scotland gain international recognition and acceptance as a nation ?

If the answer is no, forget it.
All you are offering is Scotland as a region, or as a state within a 'federal' UK.
Just more of the same.
Incidentally why do Unionists regularly compare States or Regions with Countries?

Try offering Scotland as a nation, as well as a country, and now like it you'll be getting somewhere.

PS The Election in May was voted on party political lines, it was not a vote for independence.
Please do not underestimate the number of pro-independence supporters in all of the parties.
If you read between the lines on the announcement made today by David Cairns of the Labour party, it may well be they are just waking up to that fact.

Finally if you look at the percentage of votes that Labour got in with at the General Election of 2005 which was 35% and then factor in the 61% turnout, it equates to 22% of the electorate voted for the current Westminster Government.
Not exactly an overwhelming level of support.

320

Very smart post and a fantastic read.

I bow to you and all that you have said

Top of the class, well said.

NAUON

" I made the point earlier about how some (a small number) of Nat posters deliberately include comments that show their own bigotted prejudices."

As with comments about Tartan Taliban, foaming at the mouth Nats, Natsis, comparisons with the Third Reich, etc
For someone supposedly sitting on a fence, you appear to spend most of your time looking in one direction. A glance over your shoulder from time to time might be in order.

302 failte niall

feasgar math

chi mi arithist thu

62. Mr. Lachie Todd, Edinburgh / 9:00am 3 Nov 2007

It is now beyond dispute that it is a political argument because, no matter how much the Unionists muddy the waters, Scotland is presently a very prosperous nation and, potentially, could be even more prosperous!

I admire you posts generally, and have to disagree slightly in regard the "presently a very prosperous nation"comment.

When I go around my country I see a great deal of ruined castles, a great deal of scared land with little correct replanting of forests, a great deal of awful "ribbon development/scheme architecture, a great deal of partialised communities, a great deal of foreign people owning huge areas of Scotland with out due respect to the land culture and folk, a great deal of ports out of full use, Wick being a case in point. A great deal of derelict houses, especially North East of Brora, a great deal of frustration, apathy and even suicide, cap all of that off with a young population which wants to leave ( the Brain Drain ) and cannot afford to get an apartment let alone a house.

I do see the potential to reverse all of these and more, like a more balanced distribution of the population, and 15 year 'grooming' time for those who wish to buy a part of Scotland over a certain acreage. The full control over our fisheries ( so they are not over fished).

The oil taken back in full and back dated.Or does that mean we get the South of Britain as payment?

The list is long and can happen and prosperity will follow, it will take a great deal of time and effort to right the wrongs.
Ill be there. I hope you will too.

321 Andy Durfresne

Appreciated.

The name Durfresne.
Dur : hard
Fresne ?
Nearest French word Frene: Ash

Just wondered about the origins of the name.

Wasn't Andy Dufresne the chappy who was bumraped in the 'Hamshank Redemption'?

#322 - well put. He only looks and listens one way The AM2 way......

Funny they nevere ver post around the same time and only post when the other getting a gubbing.....

Call me cynical but when someone says "not a unionist or a nationalist" And then constatly backs the unionist cause I smell a cynical big rat

And for AM2 too disagree with the word loyalist , dure to the paramilitary tones is trully laughable!

To further my point AM2 and not a unionist and nationalist are the saem. Then why is Unionist not nat answering the question from 302 about AM2 answering question directly (in his response at 315 )

Saying the reason I did not respond to your post at 302....

If this was an individual called unionsit he would not reply to a post for AM2 and Answer it as Unionist saying the "reason I DID NOT ANSWER"

HAHAHAHA AM2 is found oot again!

Long day AM2? Identities getting mixed up? forgetting which post you havce to disseminate your lies too ? Pretty pathetic

AM2 as I said earlier. What do your colegues do for fun when your not in the office?

AM2 staggers around mesmerised by the little birdies, oooh I feel faint its all got too much I can't handl;e these lies , time for a new character!

ON THIS DAY 3RD NOVEMBER 1975

1975: North Sea oil begins to flow
The Queen has formally begun the operation of the UK's first oil pipeline at a £500,000 ceremony in Scotland.

The 130-mile (209-kilometre) pipeline from Cruden Bay to Grangemouth has been built by British Petroleum (BP).

The pipeline serves the Forties oilfield 110 miles east of Aberdeen, which the company discovered six years ago.

The Queen inaugurated the flow of oil by pushing a gold-plated button in BP's control centre at Dyce near Aberdeen.

She was accompanied by Prince Philip and Prince Andrew.

Prime Minister Harold Wilson also attended with the Scottish Secretary and other senior cabinet colleagues.

The inauguration by Her Majesty and the presence of so many high-ranking politicians in Dyce - a town scarcely on the map a year ago - is seen as testament to the importance being placed on North Sea oil.

'Tartan Army'

The Forties is the largest oilfield so far discovered in the British sector of the North Sea.

It is being mined with the help of a £370m loan from the British government.

Production will start this month at a rate of 10,000 barrels per day.

Within two to three years the field is expected to yield 400,000 barrels per day - about a fifth of Britain's oil consumption.

The ceremony to mark the field's official opening was marked by Scotland's largest-ever police operation.

Officials were worried by threats from the so-called "Tartan Army" to disrupt the ceremony or bomb the pipeline which contains nearly 30 million gallons of oil.

The group has said it was behind four attempts to damage the pipeline in the past two years.

None of the attacks caused serious damage but the Tartan Army said they had only been "dress rehearsals".

330 Bob

I think you have "outed" AM2 again. Very odd he (NAUON) replies directly in the first person to a post addressed to AM2. Weird also that he says "I made the point earlier" about Nat bigots (Cairns etc) - NANOU did not make this point, it was AM2! Weirder that NANOU always seems to pop up as AM2 goes, and starts defending AM2.

EXposed as a fabulating, multi-monikered fibber me thinks!

http://www.onestopclick.com/news/Microsoft-plans-European... why are these investments not coming to Scotland? Scotland =60 jobs/ Ireland 1,300 + several hundred more from this.

AM2 or anyone else who agrees with his position:

If we take a leap of faith and agree with you, and accept the validity of GERS in respect of independence, what does this prove?

Let's just assume you are right about these massive deficits - what is your conclusion? What does Scotland do?

#330 Mr Bob

See posts #299, #126 for when the mask slips and #311 when he is an 'impartial' and 'neutral' defender of Mr AM2.

Shocking state of affairs. I swear there's only four of us on this board, and one of us works for The Scotsman.

AM2 and his alter ego/ appologist self Unionist not nationalist has shot himself in ther foot so many times over his lies , spinning and charades as other users so much he has gone through more artificial feet than douglas badder needed replaced in his retirement!

AIM THE GUN HIGHER. LIKE YER HEID! AND AIM PROPERLY!

#337 - LOL your probably right. But cue AM2 calling foul!!!

everyone else had to change their names due to AM2 grassing them and asking the admin on the next desk up to remove them and their posts.

GUG etc have been victims and Juankerr and rockall

It has been a great day for Scotland and mostly this forum finaly catching AM2 and his alter egos dead in the act.

The games up for him , and probably a p45 come monday for bringing his rag into disrepute by using it in an underhand manner and making his paper look like a labour mouth piece sanctioned by the editor.

RESIGN AM2 , Your a national scandal!!!!!

out of 340 posts on the subject, about 240 are blowing AM2 out of the water for his blatant lying and propoganda

The Scotsman. The Paper of the Nu Laba Movement.....
Glad theyve let us know who they want to buy the paper thanks to AM2?

339 Bob

Are you sure he is that far away from the admin?

337 -Wes Q Montague: 4 of us? Is that counting Col B or not?

Ps - Hamshank Redemption? LMAO

Just for Mr Mutt and his bollocks.

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=68774926&size=l

#343- are they lovers?

333. Union mutt / 7:41pm 3 Nov 2007

ON THIS DAY 3RD NOVEMBER 1975

"It is being mined with the help of a £370m loan from the British government."

"Loan"! ? Hilarious.

An even more mixed up cause together than individualy......

#342 - AM2 is today the admins probably not at his desk or at the phone to remove and ban as per AM2 touchies requests.....

#342 - I think from what I here he works at hootsmon, And assuming he is of today and admins in office.

I am away for a life, this is getting like mauling a kitten with no defence. Am2 don't say were not generous.

#350, 338. Bob Dobolina

More Nationalist cyber drone paranoia. I only ever post as AM2.

#345 - njoy your posts. I think in response to your question he may at least have knowledge of 1 part of Dundee.

AM2 is tiring.

Another subject.

Politician of the year and JAckie Ballie. Has Kavverner in Govan received the order for her dress for the night? I understand something so technicaly and structuraly difficult would need a few months "lead time"

Any thoughts?

352
Idiot.

Ps.

Idiot.

AS:-)

#342 Tsk I am Col B and so is my wife.

Ohhhh Mr Mutt....

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=162954812&size=o

#302 Union Mutt

Try this link:

http://www.alba.org.uk/

Scroll down the left hand side to the tab marked 'Scothing the Myth then scroll down the titles until you find 'The Great Deception@

Enjoy.

'S Mise
Niall.

#363 - We have lost track of what you stand for and any consistency you have or more so lack of it.

#362 - your best advice is to be Jackie Ballies dance partner at the awards. Your feet will be safer on that duty than the constant shooting off , of your toes on these boards.

FLUBBALUBBALUBBALUB!

#308 AM2

You wrote:
"1) What is the nature of your links to the allegedly “ultra-nationalist” group Siol nan Gaidheal?

Ref:
http://www.freescot.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=34857&am......
http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal-usa.com/brathair.htm

2) How can you justify your crazy statement that “When Independence comes to Scotland, you are going to witness the biggest financial disaster since the Wall Street crash as the rump UK goes bankrupt”?

Ref: http://forum.theherald.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=645&high...

I have been a long time member of Siol-nan-Gaidheal for many years. It is certainly not 'Ultra Nationalist' as we primarily exist to safeguard the History, Languages and Culture of Scotland, to preserve them for future generations of Scots. So who describes us as 'Ultra Nationalists' then? Does the idea of being Scottish and Proud of it, offend you? What is wrong with safeguarding our right to march to national monuments to pay our respects?

Thank you for bringing my old article to Public notice. I have actually revised and updated this very important subject. You may believe in the Police state like your political masters, but the people of Scotland will certainly disagree.

Frankly you tried this tactic before on your Blog and you were forced to withdraw your vicious attacks on me by the pressure of other posters on these forums. Do not make the same mistake again, your attacks are water off a ducks back. Or to be more rude You are attempting to F@rt against thunder.

The answer to number two is simple. The labour government are running a huge annual deficit of around £34 billions a year. Take away Scotland's generous contribution and the day o

#363 Well that was convincing. That Thatcher woman, marvelous wasn't she?

368 Q montague

re 363, aye he convinced me. No doubts here. He is the walrus, tough.

355 C the L™ - that EV - what an idiot.

#368 - ROFL!

#367 - He removes posts entire years even get removed and once removes them he asks you to prove it in full knowledge he has removed posts. Unfortunately this tac doesnt work on peoples minds eho had previously read his drivel.

P45 for AM2

What a bunch of saddos! I started reading these comments at 8am today, then got on with my NORMAL Saturday - shopping, cleaning, visiting relatives and being generally useful.
I have logged back on tonight and some of you seem to have been glued to your keyboards bickering, since the early hours of this morning!
Do you have maids, very helpful, understanding spouses or mums running around making sure you eat and go to the toilet?
I am all for healthy discussion but Scotland would NEVER survive independently if everyone was a self important, opinionated, computer obsessed nitwit like many of you. We would have zero productivity.
GET A LIFE!!!

#374 Says a man called Tinkerpussy.

Is there a sexual offenders register for persistent pet botherers?

This admission by Labour is confirmation of the fact that there is no argument left for maintaining the union.

Those arguments that existed (based on some assumtion about "cooperatio

Unionism has been discredited and invalidated beyond recovery (not that there is anything much to recover).

I think it's time that everyone started to recognise this and started thinking about how to move forward with devolution and how best to make the transition towards full independence.

The whole pro-union argument is simply bogging us down in all the petty stuff, the name-calling, the boorish arrogance of English Voice and his utterly useless "contributions".

All these arguments involving the economic stats etc need to be concentrated on the so-likely-it's-near-inevitable prospect of a Scotland that is either devolved to a point of virtual independence or simply independent.

Mr. Tinkerpuss, I'll have you know that Dorothy Mantooth is a saint.

I might just take your mother out on a date...and never call her...again!

#374 - We are watching AM2 eating the Humble Pie at #373

He is taking a long time to eat it as it is rather unpalatable for him.

Accidentally deleted this bit:

Those arguments that existed (based on some assumtion about "cooperation is best" are now recognisable as bogus because independence does not mean the end of cooperation but a beginning of cooperation that does not exclude either or any of the cooperating parties).

Oh Tinkerpuss...

You live in Fife.

#374

"....then got on with my NORMAL Saturday - shopping, cleaning, visiting relatives and being generally useful."

Wow, Tinkerpuss. What an AMAZING life you have!

Full of so many exciting pastimes!

380 What is that - discharge from a fairy?

am2 wrote:
"But more importantly than that, it would indicate that the SNP's figures can't be trusted, which would mean that the SNP can't be trusted."

OK I can understand that POV.

However I also asked:
"Let's just assume you are right about these massive deficits - what is your conclusion? What does Scotland do?"

So what does Scotland actually do?

I'm trying to understand what it means in practice if one accepts the large deficit claim.

For instance does believing this mean that one should reject a referendum on independence? Or does believing this mean one can accept a referendum, but advise voting against independence or greater Scottish powers? Does it mean that Labour should be returned to power?

Is that no' Fairy Liquid™?

#374 - I have sat at home on My @rse . Telling my partner in the union to go shopping, pay for the messages and do all the work in the house. Oh and the car needs petrol , I loaned her the cash for the getting the petrol. Once.

It works out fine. I tell her She would never survive without me and any figures she brings out I can easily call in AM2 to tell her how absolutely wrong and missguided she is. Failing that i will get Am2 to login as another nom de plume and berrate her in an introverted rascist type manner.

384 - English Voice - The Wild Mean Fairly Thick Kid

386
LOL

Fukit. Ayrshire. A scriptwriter you should be.
No?
Unless science calls.

AM2 and Whitegold and eveyone following up AM2 on his admirable but ultimately futile attempts to continue arguing the "economic case" against independence.....

It's pretty clear that when the Scottish press start to publish front page new stories that "scotch the myth" of Scotland's economic dependence on England and when the most staunch of all the unionist parties begin to reverse their claims of an independent Scotland being a road to econimc ruin that we're entering a new phase of the debate.

This is not to say that unionists are not entitled to argue in favour of the union, but to do so on the basis of the UK being the crux for Scotland's econimc stability simply no longer applies. That particvular argument (which is the mainstay of unionism over all) is now null and void.

AM2, I'm afraid you're going to have to broaden your arguments in favour of the union. Economy has been your cornerstone, and it no longer holds up. Surely you can see that yourself?

I would probably respect your arguments more if they revealed something more of the emotional motives that underlie them - your sense of pride in Britishness, if that's what you have; your definition of what constitues British culutre and why that should be something from which we can derive a definitive sense of cultural particulairty.

As you know, I will argue that Britishness is as meaningful/meaningless to most Scots as calling ourselves European is. I will actually argue that it's worse because it is simply synonymous, in world temrs, with England, to the point that people I know abroad commonly refer to me as being English even while I've repeatedly told them I'm a Scot.

Anyway, this is surely the new level upon which this whole debate must be considered, given that the economic arguments have been dissovled by the acknowledgement of Labour of their fallibility.

And looking at it with as much objectivity as I can, I can honestly say that the

Er... Wngland is of course England.

This is what you call a Freudian insult :-)

390 - I imagined Wingland is where the Winged Ones live - eloquent and passionate fighters for freedom :-)

No response? Don't tell me some of you actually sleep - or maybe all out clubbing!!!

#391
Hey hey. Wingland it is then!

#392
I'm not sleeping. I've got an airfix model kit that'll keep me up for at least another half hour! And Grandmama's just given me another glass of orange shandy! Wooo hooo!

Good morning all......my head hurts...Sunday morning........
#305 Federalism....an intertesting idea ,BUT its not good enough and I think its just another water muddy issue from the unionist forces .Why have hambuger when you can have steak
#312/313 Has Andy finally seen the light,or is it the saturday night booze?
#320 Well said and it was what I was trying to point out.

#292 Sorry.... You seem to have me confused with someone who gives a F**K.
Your eloquence is outstanding and I am sure you are an ASSet to any "cause" .Your cutting repartie is an example to us all, as I can see by what you have added to this debate (i.e. S.F.All)
Do you understand what a debate means?, its does not mean "name calling". GROW UP!
FYI
The days of $50 barrels of oil are LONG LONG GONE. Just see how much oil will sell for if Iran is invaded,$125 a barrel will be cheap!!
I got my sourses from Bloomberg NOT fantasy island.
Here is another that states oil should hit $120 a barrel soon.BUT i'm sure YOU know better than these people. yeah right!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&si...

and as I said before the financial issue should be a side line NOT the deciding factor. If it was the be all and end all, Netherlands would join the German economy and The Finnish would join the Russian!

Good, so now that Scotland can hack it alone the subsidy is no longer needed?

Labour has more faces than old Big Ben.

Telling us that we couldn't go it alone as an idependent country (despite the fact that the vast majority of other countries seem to manage OK) & now, finally seeing the vote heading up the Clyde, they are making an EMBARRASSING volte face.

Oh, err, well actually....

PATHETIC, & NO I won't be voting for them again.

The process has started, go for it SNP, there is no turning back.

SAOR ALBA. SNP is the way ahead.

Well done AM2. You have managed to get two of my posts removed by the moderator. (63 & 302) By doing so, you have revealed your moral poverty and intellectual bankruptcy. Independence is safe in your hands as hordes of unionists desert your beloved union in disgust. Keep up the good work.

Air son Alba
Niall.

395. Mike1, Midlands / 10:30am 4 Nov 2007

Good, so now that Scotland can hack it alone the subsidy is no longer needed?

The simple fact is that Scotland and her resources have been subsidising the South of Britain for the last three hundred years. The oil propped up the entire bank system in London in more recent years.

We should calculate how much is owned by this english governmental theft and see how much that is today in relative terms. It may well be the case that the entire english banking system vaults contents are ours, either that or the entirety of South Britain.

Their propaganda has worked well, but no longer, the myth-making has been exposed, and will continue to be.The true horror story will be published after independence as there are too many interests here that would be damaged by their full release of such information.

Independence now.

#401 Do you mean small independent countries like Czech Rep.,Slovakia , Slovenia, Croatia ,Belarus , Ukraine etc,etc,etc or
small countries like Netherlands ,Finland, Luxemberg, Rep.of Ireland etc,etc ??
All really struggling .....Yeah sure?
I believe that being part of this union has deminished our presense on the world stage and has meant we have to bend to the way of others ,do you mean flexible in this way?
In the same way as if England/U.K. where to give up our/thier government/soverignty to Brussels . But as a unionist you would see the benefits of being part of a bigger economy with a shared history with the members nations.You know war and all that! ........Sound familiar??

I see AM2 and the Unionista lackies are at it again, operating on the principle that by repetition of a lie it will take hold, and also the principle of denial.

Denial is the first part of the acceptance of truth.

This following passage is from a book entitled The Druids by a Peter Berresford Ellis 1994, which is the best I've read on the subject, burns away that anglo victorian myth-making well.

About a Pelagian Aphorism.

"Reason is by nature superior to authority and has greater dignity. Any authority is weak unless it can be supported by reason, by a logic founded in truth, in which case such reason does not require the support of authority."

Eriugena seems to be echoing the Druidic aphorism: " The truth against the world!"

Pelagius and his philosophies where Celtic in root and he was denounced a heretic by that Bas**** Augustine.

Besides, economy is a sub-set of logic which if anyone requires a balanced view of the world is only one branch of a three way view,

Logos, Mythos, Eros.

402. AM2, Glasgow / 12:46pm 4 Nov 2007
Oh thanks for posting some salient observations there, Mr Mackintosh's had more grit, than mine.

Pip Pip Tally Ho old flower, what what, Hmmmmm ?

408. AM2, Glasgow / 2:06pm 4 Nov 2007
I deign to stoop to reply, tsk,tsk.

Come, come Wilkins lets not play the naive schoolboy, let me pour you a G&T and we can talk in glee about the good old days in empire, eh what what, Hmmmmm?

#404 AM2
Netherlands and Finland are established countries and economies,and I do not see them wanting to join the German or Russian economies. So the Czech Rep. , Slovakia , Slovenia , Croatica etc are better examples , I notice you avoid them in your reply.Even with some of these economies suffering war and outdated infrastructure they are not struggling after a decade or 2 of existence.
As for the rest being the classic ScotNat cringe , please respond to what I believe are valid questions. I try to respond to what I would descibe as your classic Unionist cringe.

409. AM2, Glasgow / 2:10pm 4 Nov 2007

You can't read either, astounding, and you proport lofty economic theory my goodness.

412,
Adam smith would be turning in his grave.

413. AM2, Glasgow / 2:17pm 4 Nov 2007

I imagine that you not being nationalist makes you an imperialist.
Hmmmmm?

One can be an imperialist and be a Scot old boy.

But, then that makes you and Anglified Scot which is worse.

Good day hack merchant.

AM2
Your Irish observation
"The Irish economy, having grown primarily through profit-shifting by American companies, is a bubble waiting to burst"

Maybe ,but it hasn't burst yet and the British economy is a bubble waiting to burst with the collapse of the housing markets and a credit economy with rising interest rates!
So ,do you not think that there would also be a boost to the Scottish economy from the Scots Americans.This can only be great news for the Nationalists!
FYI
I have nothing against English people ,I have english friends. I have a problem with the British Establishment.

#419 AM2
I design 'data feed interfaces' for Fitch RDS ,Moody's ,Standard and Poors Crosswalk Bulk, Bloomberg etc etc . I do this for Banks and trading Houses including the Federal Reserve Bank .
SO NO its NOT wishful thinking
The British economy was in debt for billions last year ,8 or 9 I believe.What would that have been without oil revenue? What would that be if it was an English economy without the benefit of Oil?
I think the REAL question is
"Is England a viable economy?"
and I politely ask you again ,will you answer my 'ScotNat' cringe questions.

420. Cuthulan / 3:00pm 4 Nov 2007

Is England a viable economy?"

Reversing the scenario as a process always works, and often the comparative can be usefull.

AM2 is a dark and twisted horse riding straight for a cliff, don't waste your intellect on him.

Would it be possible Cuthulan for you to make some overviews on calculating how much is owed by this english governmental theft say since 1975 in regard the oil and see how much that is today in relative terms. ( http://www.measuringworth.com/worthmeasures.html )

Then if the fancy takes you how much electricity as a cumulative relative value in pounds stirling are we owed?

Then the gas debt, the mineral debt, and then the human cost of the english Empire?

AM2
Why can I never get an answer from a unionist? Why do they always seem to answer a question with a question?
All I want to know is ,if you believe in the principle of union is it for economic or ideological reasons?
If it is economic then that's been discredited.
If its ideological how do you explain most unionists revulsion at the Europen Union. You should be desparate to be in there.
The unionist postion smacks of hipocrasy and being "give your soverignty to England but England will never give its soverignty to Europe" This is just mini empirialism .Its been tried and its B*ll*cks.
Or is it some nostalgic romantic feelings for the days of old and the union jack???.... Well cry me a river, build me a bridge and GET OVER IT!!

Ard Righ
All the best mate, I will check the site. Remember its the establishment not the english people that we have an axe to grind with. But apologists for empirialism need to be made to explain thier views in the cold light of day.Watch them scwirm or as most just ignore answering the question as they might embaress themselves.
On one comment page I spent a whole afternoon trying to get an answer from a unionist(Andy) ,that was slagging Alex Salmond for ....wait for it .....NOT ANSWERING QUESTIONS (LOL)
OH you couldn't write this stuff!!
Anyway I'm off see you all another time ,I don't usually get this amount of free time so don't hold your breath.

AM2 Wht did you get Nialls posts removed. They where not in anyway rascist as you CRY. Merely knocking your argument for six and shining a spotlight on your hypocrisy.

AHHHHHHHH theres the real reason.................

Here we are, yet more proof Independence is viable.

http://www.scottishpolitics.org/scotching/greatdeception....

paramilitary

428

Bob, you are a bampot. Are you old enough to remember the SNP treachery of 1979? Voted with the Tories, lost 9 of their seats in the general election, and gave us Thatcher. Some record, Bob.

#429 The then Liberals and Ulster Unionists also voted with Thatcher. I don't think it was such a bad thing as trade union reform was badly badly needed and the strikes of 1978-79 were ample proof of that.

#430 you are so right. The UK was rapidly descending to third world status and that Thatcher woman put us on the map again as a World Power.

Trades Unions sorted. Wonderful news that got the Nation back to work in jobs that didn't need state subsidies.

She introduced the fairest form of Local taxes the Poll tax which was fought by the scroungers who have never had to pay for their own communities and relied on homeowners who often coulld not and cannot afford to subsidise the millions of income tax payers who pay no council tax.

Gordon told me that when she visited No 10 for tea she was still pxxxxxd off with the Scots for their inability to control their freeriders. He says wait til I'm PM then they will know what taxation is!!

#429 - I was correcting a spelling mistake i made at post #427

And your point is? As i never said anything about tories?
I only mentioned AM2 and his unflinching hypocrisy.

#429 must be BAM2