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yeah, Cherie - how come only men have been appointed pope??? Such clear sexism shouldn't be tolerated.
1. Meths Rides Again™
The world would be a better place if Cherie started wearing a niqab, and hubby, an orange boiler suit.
#1. Meths Rides Again.Meths, are you suggesting that Cherie Blair wants to be the next popess?
In Christianity, the Bible gives males the spiritual responsibilities of family and community leadership. Women have an equal role to support her hubby as he supports her.
# 3 What would a PMSing Popess be like?
The logic that says christianity is 'just as bad' as Islam is just politically correct nonsense. Here's a list:
1) Women in Saudi are not permitted to leave the house unaccompanied by a male.
2) Women in Saudi are not permitted to drive cars but suitably qualified women in the US can pilot the space shuttle - that travels over 11 times the speed of sound in orbit.
3) Women in Iran are being hanged publicly by mobile cranes - for entertainment. The silence from the anti-death penalty lefties is, as usual, deafening.
4) Shia muslim men can marry and divorce within 24 hours. Its basically a way of getting round anti-sex outside marriage rules.
5) Under the Taliban, who were overthrown thanks to an 'illegal' war, women were getting their finger nails pulled out for wearing nail varnish and beaten in the street for being unaccompanied by a male.
If christian denominations in Scotland were treating women like this do you think the SNP would keep quiet? Would Scottish Labour sit back and say nothing?
It was Salmond who said that "the Islamic faith is one of the world's greatest religions". Salmond's impressed by the way women are treated under Sharia Law then, eh?
Not being female and not having to live in a muslim country he can afford to sit around smugly talking crap!
#5 Willie Smith - Middle East
So why are you in the Middle East then Wullie?
As you succinctly make it sound like a lovely accomodating place especially for women who after all are half the sky as someone once said.
From the brief description above Sikhism appears to have got it right, two sides of the same coin, enjopy our differences but equal respect for each other, why can't we just do that.
Compared to the modern day, and to other regions in ancient times ... Ancient Egypt was also extraordinary in that women were co-equal with men in just about everything. Unlike the position of women in most other ancient civilizations, including that of Greece, the Egyptian woman seems to have enjoyed the same legal and economic rights as the Egyptian man. This notion is reflected in Egyptian art and historical inscriptions. It is uncertain why these rights existed for the woman in Egypt but no where else in the ancient world. It may well be that such rights were ultimately related to the theoretical role of the king in Egyptian society. If the pharaoh was the personification of Egypt, and he represented the corporate personality of the Egyptian state, then men and women might not have been seen in their familiar relationships, but rather, only in regard to this royal centre of society. Since Egyptian national identity would have derived from all people sharing a common relationship with the king, then in this relationship, which all men and women shared equally, they were, in a sense, equal to each other. This is not to say that Egypt was an egalitarian society. It was not. Legal distinctions in Egypt were apparently based much more upon differences in the social classes, rather than differences in gender. Rights and privileges were not uniform from one class to another, but within the given classes, it seems that equal economic and legal rights were, for the most part, accorded to both men and women. Most of the textual and archaeological evidence for the role of women that survives from prior to the New Kingdom pertains to the elite, not the common folk. At this time, it is the elite, for the most part, who leave written records or who can afford tombs that contain such records. However, from the New Kingdom onward, and certainly by the Ptolemaic Period, such evidence pertains more and more to the non-elite, i.e., to women of the middle
(continued)The Greek domination of Egypt, which began with the conquest of Alexander the Great in 332 B.C., did not sweep away Egyptian social and political institutions. Both Egyptian and Greek systems of law and social traditions existed side-by-side in Egypt at that time. Greeks functioned within their system and Egyptians within theirs. Mixed parties of Greeks and Egyptians making contractual agreements or who were forced into court over legal disputes would choose which of the two legal systems in which they would base their settlements. Ironically, while the Egyptians were the subjugated people of their Greek rulers, Egyptian women, operating under the Egyptian system, had more privileges and civil rights than the Greek women living in the same society, but who functioned under the more restrictive Greek social and legal system.
WOMEN'S LEGAL RIGHTS:
The Egyptian woman's rights extended to all the legally defined areas of society. From the bulk of the legal documents, we know that women could manage and dispose of private property, including: land, portable goods, servants, slaves, livestock, and money (when it existed), as well as financial instruments (i.e., endowments and annuities). A woman could administer all her property independently and according to her free will. She could conclude any kind of legal settlement. She could appear as a contracting partner in a marriage contract or a divorce contract; she could execute testaments; she could free slaves; she could make adoptions. She was entitled to sue at law. It is highly significant that a woman in Egypt could do all of the above and initiate litigation in court freely without the need of a male representative. This amount of freedom was at variance with that of the Greek woman who required a designated male, called a kourios, to represent or stand for her in all legal contracts and proceedings. This male was her husband, father or brother.
Egyptian women had the right to
"In Islam, there is no difference between men and women's relationship to God; they receive identical rewards and punishments for their conduct"This mean your "girl next door" suicide bomber can expect to collect her 74 virgins too?
All religion is the problem,ban it completely.
#11.
Good comment and agree with you.
There is about as much chance of Islam giving women equal rights as there is of that numpty John McCrirrick relinquishing his MCP tag......never going to happen.
....and as for Cherie Blair.............does she really have a purpose on this mortal coil?
2# SUCK MCCRUNCHIE
Have to agree with you.who wants to hear her views she not important and her husbands not the pm now I think he's just looking for peace now.
REMEMBRANCE DAYWith everyones approval may I slightly digress.
I'm delighted to note that everyone one on t/v are wearing the red poppy and that they havent got around to making the staff etc wear white poppies.
The red poppies are to remember all the people who died in the wars starting from the first war.
It was introduced first in Canada.
All those killed in the wars wanted peace and they died trying, and the red poppy is for them.
A few years ago some idiot thought, oh lets have a white poppy for peace.
So come red poppy day there they are with their white poppies in competition.
If they want to undermine the good that the monies obtained from the red poppies they should be ashamed.
Go and get some other flower for peace. its thanks to those who have given their lives for this country that you are able to go on ranting about peace.
Just leave red poppy day to red poppy day and not white poppeis.
Get hundreds of white doves and balloons with peace written on for your peace day.
SORRY HAD TO GET THAT OFF MY CHEST
Isn't the wifie in the photo wanted for doing a 24 hr garage in Scunthorpe?
#14 AJHi there, old chap!! How are you doing? I thought you'd defected to the Guardian or something!
I'm no fan of Cherie, but I suppose at least this time she's trying to do something constructive - AND she did critisise more than one religion for what is really misogyny on a grand scale.
Probably AJ.
....and anyway, how do they know from the photo that the person is British? let alone female?
#2 and #11 Spot on.
Anglofile,
If you look at the girl's eyes you can just make out the reflection of what looks like the Brig Tavern in Lower Methil, which is proof is it not?
JG,
Hiya pal. I've been keeping a lowish profile and trying to behave myself!How are you?
#16 AnglofileAnd if you look very closely there is evidence of some eyebrow plucking having gone on. Us girls know these things!!!
#18 AJI'm fine, thanks. Trying to get to grips with the OU course I've signed up for this year while still finishing off a college course! Have you finished your stuff?
Did you know that (in Scotland anyway) it was only in the 1970s that women stopped being referred to as "wife of and residing with" in some circumstances?
What we need is a unified world religion --we could call it the Mumbo Jumbo People. We could make commandment number one; The leader must smoke a minimum of five reefers per day. This would be a lot better than smoking heretics.
I forgot to mention getting stoned is infinitely better than being stoned fur showing yer knickers.
In the same way that her murdering husband has become an envoy for peace, Cherie Bliar has become an envoy for women's rights.
With her grasping, dishonest, selfish and boorish ways, she has done more harm for the image of the modern woman than anybody else I can think of.
You're a study-a-holic!:) I finshed my module last month, but I don't start the next one until Feb, so I've got a wee break! Which was badly need btw!
Women being referred to in those terms hasn't really changed where I stay, but I know what you mean. The institutions of the British Isles have always been heavily biased in favour of the male and probably, in the main, still are!
When did ye burn the boulder holder?
The head-bangers are at it again - posts #2 and #23.
But well said to W Smith at #5.
Sadly you won't persuade many here. They see a western conspiracy behind every tree, evil behind every sensible utterance by anyone involved in or near to politics. Of course, most of them DO NOT have to live in a middle East country. If they did, well ...
And I agree on the Salmond reference. I have no doubt that Islam IS meant to be a great religion, but it is being corrupted or misinterpreted by many -mostly men, as Cherie points out. And Salmond? Isn't he the one who said there were "no terrorists in Scotland" a few weeks before the Glasgow airport bombing?
Cherie's work in human rights and in numerous charities is legendary and goes largely unreported.
What about you lot of moaners and groaners on here? When did you last perform a charitable act, apart from keeping your mouths shut?!
I was impresed by Cherie Blair's radio interview. I thought she handled it well and was the height of balance and common sense. But I may be biased; I've always thought her husband was too.
Keep at it, Cherie. Some people just don't know they're born.
Google Keep Tony Blair for PM.
#5 you are being very, very selective in what appears to be an argument that Islam is "worse" than Christianity. The problem isn't a particular religion, the problem is a fundamentalist and intolerant application of it by those in power. Personally and for the record, I find fundamentalist Christians every bit as scary as Muslims. Hurrah for the western liberal secular tradition!
re 1 actualy there was a woman poe in the middle ages, who dressed as a man..
Also Israel treats women fairely and equaly, they were the first country to have female soldiers in front line duties!!
sorry pope !!
The new Guy Fawkes?
http://www.anorak.co.uk/broadsheets/177307.html
What incredible arrogance this woman shows. Imagine lecturing Muslims about the true message of their faith. As if she has a clue about Islam
#20
JG, so you are assuming that blokes do not pluck their eybrows? haha
The eyes could belong to Amir Khan, trying to dodge his next fight.lol
Cherie opened her big mouth again, and out came more hypocritical, self-serving garbage...
Coming from a country and culture which openly discriminates agianst men in Family Courts, where children are made the "prize" for irresponsible and selfish women and where fathers are denied a relationship with their children after divorce... and a country where women make a career out of marrying and then divorcing men, taking them for everything they have got... (look at poor poor Heather McCartney, the epitome of gold-digging whores everywhere)
"But she highlighted new laws in Egypt that give men and women different rights on divorce, as well as Orthodox Jewish practices, under which a woman cannot divorce without her husband's consent. "
And don't men and women have de-facto different rights in divorce in the UK? Why not clean your own stable first before trying to muck out others? The hypocricy of this woman and her husband are unreal!
#1
yes it ironic that Cherie is a member of religion that forbids female priests, does not allow male priests to marry and objects to women's right to abortion and contraception.
She is clearly a little confused, still good that she has had the courgae to speak up AFTER her husband is no longer prime warmonger.
#5 "The logic that says christianity is 'just as bad' as Islam is just politically correct nonsense." - W Smith
As soon as you see the term "politically correct" you can be fairly sure you are dealing with someone who has a surfeit of righteous indignation but not much in the way of reasoned argument. And so it turns out in this case.
While I have no truck with ANY religion, neither do I have much tolerance for ill-informed prejudice and bigotry. If you are going to insist that all of Islam be judged by the worst practices of the worst people in nominally Islamic countries, then the avoidance of distortion requires that other religions should be judged in precisely the same terms.
Thus, Christianity must be judged by the conduct of slave-traders, child-molesting priests and anti-abortion terrorists as well as governments which execute mental defectives, imprison people without trial and operate a global network of torture chambers.
So TB is trying to promote peace, whilst his "piece" is not trying to help him.
They need to "piece" together there thoughts and sort out what they are doing.
Electric Hermit - that was a very intelligent response to Smith's bigotry. But I'm bound to ask: what the hell are you doing on this board?
#34 Wow Electric Hermit, couldn't have put it better myself!
Not sure about Cherie's self-serving peace mission ...
34. Electric Hermit
There are important differences between the worst examples of Christian behaviour and Muslim behaviour you quote.
Slave trading in Christian countries was actually abolished because of people arguing that it's against Christian doctrine.
As for paedophile priests etc, these are criminal actions of individuals in no way justified, endorsed or motivated by religion.
Certainly, there are religiously motivated anti-abortion extremists too but they're a lunatic fringe, not mainstream
In contrast, #5's examples are legalised practices of theocratic Islamic regimes, ie. activities endorsed and justified by a dominant interpretation of this religion in those societies.
G-d is a female, perpetually menopausal....
"yeah, Cherie - how come only men have been appointed pope??? Such clear sexism shouldn't be tolerated."
Tolerated by whom? What would you do about this? Make it illegal to bar women from the papacy?
These are religious beliefs; if you don't agree with them, don't join. But don't tell other people how, who, or what to believe.
Can someone just shut the Blairs up, pair of self serving hypocrites. Blair on peace and Blair on fairness of any kind, what a joke.
Injustice is BAD, inequality is BAD, basically religion is BAD!
We know! But do the leeches that go on about it in public, and live a smashing privilaged life into the bargain?
Numbers 11 and 12
You would actually ban religion? Hmmm...if I remember right, the only societies that have attempted that in recent memory were all communist.
But then, I find a LOT of communist thinking in these comments. It's good to know where you stand on things.
Why should followers of any cult/religion deserve special priveleges? Should Muslims, Catholics, Orange Order etc. be allowed to practice any sort of mad ritual or practice just because they claim to believe in it?
All religion is bad.
#42 - we shouldn't ban religion but seperate it from the state. The founding fathers of the US had the right idea. People have the right to beleive in anything they want but they shoulnd't get special priveleges from the state, including education, because of it.
44. Calum Crubag We already have a secular state. The only theocracies remaining in the world are Muslim.
..........
Silence..............................................................................
On the other hand
Sin can not represent God. Be they Man or Woman.
The Pope is so Godly that he is neither male nor female - he is God's representative
- he is only called the Papa because most of them had kids....
At least when I go to the supermarket and buy a packet of bacon, if the assistant is Protestant or Catholic they do not ned to call for assistance in dealing with my purchase, ............. OH YES!!! it happened, I asked and was told would have been "discrimination" had the lady not been permitted to take the cashier job without allowances being made for her "religous" sensibilities .......................... so now there are more job opportinities ........... a "pork" spare for Islamic cashiers (also covers dog meat) an Agnostic for selling top those who have had and abortion, aslos covers single mothers, a LGBTGTV covering for those who object to those life styles, a carnivore top vcover for Veggies ....................... oh PC such a good employer :-)
when are you all going to realise that christian religion is a gay club - the leaders are nothing but big queens who get off on their power over sily believers
1. Don't look for female equality in religion - most religion is largely a patriarchal device for the control and distribution of available - well - womanflesh. The Old Testament can be read as a very long diatribe against women.
2. Shouldn't a female Pope be called a 'Popina'? Or maybe a 'Popita'.................
3. Recently, women in the U.S. have been unable to fill legal birth control or 'morning after' prescriptions because of the pharmacist's religious objections - inspired by Christian doctrine.
4. Anti-religious as I am, I wouldn't ban religion even if I could, but female citizens should have the same rights in law as men - and that fact needs to be communicated to them. The excesses of the polygamous FLDS in Utah and elsewhere, now coming to light, might have been lessened if the girls and women of those towns understood their rights as citizens.
#38 Dougie: OK I have work to do so this is my only post of the day (honest).
Time and time again in your posts I come across the idea that the belief system of Islam is inherently wrong and violent. It has these tendencies, such as the Theocracies you mention.
Thing is, belief systems contain human beings, who create values as they go along. They have a holy book, laws, intellectuals to guide them but at the end of the day they make their own decisions, violent or otherwise.
If you can categorically label a belief system 'Bad! Keep out!' we wouldn't need anthropology departments in universities. For hundreds of years, Islam had the civilisation while Europe was operating under a parochial form of Christianity. Things are the other way round now because we have the technology and the money.
Let me know if I've got your belief system all wrong.
What a choice off divinity too deliver the great "unwashed" a lesson on equality and off all other subjects: RELIGION.The Goddess, along with her war criminal husbandwho would be awaiting trial for war crimes in the Hague if we really lived in a GENUINE democracy, are the last pair EVER to be preaching ethics and morality. The art of lying, hypocricy, greed and many other unethical aspects of the Blair era she may be able to improve our knowledge on, if she only chose to tell the truth denied to us, over their lengthy stormy stay in Downing Street. But dare she? No way? Because that truth remains secret within our " sham democracy's secret vault we know as THE FREEDOM of INFORMATION ACT set up by past Establishments mainly for the protection off the Establishment hierarchy, and for the deliberate exclusion of ordinary citizens. Yes , Cherie could tell us many unsavoury facts why and how, her husband rose to the dizzie political heights from being a long haired guitar playing member of a pop group, to become the Prime Minister of the UK. She obviously could reveal the anwer to one off the most puzzling facts in modern UK politics but, daren't.We have the present saga running at full blast about WHO IS THAT ROYAL?: But the IGNOMINIOUS ACT described above prevents UKcitizens from knowing who this character is, but is already known world -wide to all and sundry.It's available on the Net and has been since yesterday. But the BBC, ITV and our yellow "democratic press" remains silent and totally removes it from their pages. WE also know the two young "infallible Princes" are regular attendents too boozing clubs where cocaine is freely used and can be easily bought, as is their relation who has now been caught. Their grandmothers late uncle, who was killed in a plane accident in Scotland during the 2nd World War was another who dabbled in drugs and was also dabbling in homo-sexual activi
#27 - Israel treating women fairly and putting them on the front line in battle..............do you see my point.
Does't quite add up.
Forget religion - people should treat each other equally anyway.
I say yes to less clothes and independance.
#53 - keep it snappy - i have 2 seconds to scan your text and if it bores me i move on.
Boy Wonder
You certainly are full of scholarly knowledge today.
You may have overlooked the most famous example of female equality, that being PHARAOH HATSHEPSUT (?1540-?1481 BCE) of the 18th dynasty.
She stole the throne from her nephew and step-son in his youth - he later became Tuthmosis III - and ruled first as regent and then as Pharaoh in her own rite. She even donned the ceremonial beard in her public appearance and built that beautiful funerary temple at Deir-el-Bahri.
She also made a famous visit to Punt (Somaliland?) and erected in 1485 BCE two of the largest obelisks at the world's largest religious edifices, Karnak.
Tuthmosis III later tried to obliterate any traces of his hated step-mother by defacing her images wherever he found them and smashing her statues and other religious objects dedicated to her.
Interesting woman.
52. BoabI’m no expert on theology but I’ve had a go at both the Koran and Bible. The Koran is bloodthirsty and unforgiving throughout. The main themes of the bible are love, forgiveness and redemption. I don’t know about the Old Testament, I’m perfectly willing to believe it’s just as bloodthirsty as the Koran but I don’t think it’s very relevant to the practice of mainstream modern Christianity. Another important difference between the two religions is that Muslims regard the Koran as the literal word of god which may not be questioned; Christians accept that the bible is merely an interpretation of god’s teachings.
I agree that such a thing as religion is open to interpretation. Since presumably neither of us are religious, what really matters to us is not the details of religious theory but what its followers believe and behave in practice. In quite clear that in practice, the hundreds of millions of Christians are mainly peaceful (and when they aren't, their violence generally isn't motivated by religion) whereas Islam is far more aggressive towards its neighbours and for its own followers, comes up with the kind of behaviour that post #5 lists.
No doubt, followers of either religion could find justification for almost anything in their respective texts but the Koran in very many places demands subjugation of the infidel and women. I’m afraid Cherie Blair is betraying her complete ignorance by suggesting that its true message is equal treatment for women.
I don’t really want to speak up for Christianity because I regard it as essentially superstition but I think it’s ludicrous to hold Christianity to blame for perceived failings of the American government or the criminal actions of a small number of Christians. Likewise the seemingly popular belief in above posts that all religions are as bad as each other.
BTW, I don’t know what you mean by Islam “had the civilisation” when we didn’t. Islam started off as a religion of warlike
55# Be thankfull you are in a "democratic" country and it's your choice! That's why we fought Nazi fascism for six long years!
If I refuse to eat for 2 days, most would call me mad. If I refuse to eat for 2 days on the basis that my religion demands it of me, then most will accept my position. The overwheening respect that we have for religion is absurd.
If we put a woman in a mask against her will, the world goes mad. If we put a women in a mask against her will and say its in the name of religion, its cool.
Religion is the single biggest threat to world peace. It is also the most degrading and dispicable aspect of human existence.
Its time we all woke up and rid our societies of this religious nonsense.
Hmmm. When my now ex-husband and I bought our first house (I'm talking US here), the contract read "Archie Bunker (made up) et ux". I was nowhere mentioned in the contract except as the ux. Come time for the divorce, though, who pays all the debts and fees? Poor old nameless ux, that's who!And to the person above who asked what a PMSing popess would be like - miserable, my friend, miserable!
I don't often agree with Cherie Blair, but somee of the things she said about the inequalities of women in muslim countries hit the spot!It was reported yesterday on BBC Radio 4 that Muslim associations in the UK are to be given £70 million of taxpayers’ money to help them spread the word about Islam. This is a religion that controls millions of people worldwide with the philosophy that ‘you were born a Muslim and you cannot renounce Islam without the threat of death as an apostate.It was reported recently that in Indonesia, the most populous Muslim country, three women were released after two years in jail. Their crime? Allowing Muslim children to attend their Christian children’s club! One of them, a doctor, lost her licence to practice because she now had a ‘criminal record’.#5 W.Smith outlines some of the reasons that makes me object most strongly to public money being squandered on this dubious ‘religion’.
Cherie Blair clearly has never read either the Koran or the Hadith (the sayings of Mohammed as recounted by his followers) or she would know that the Koran does indeed permit wife-beating, and in fact, advises it.
Just as the Koran advocates killing non-muslims, especially Jews, "wherever you find them."
Isn't it ironic - leading human rights lawyer makes a speech on gender equality, but is jeered on this discussion board for being too gobby and not standing mutely behind her well-known hubby...
Martha is exactly correct about Islam. Pick up a Koran, mon Cherie!
"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient...As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in beds apart and beat them." (Women, 34)
#61 and others identify the problems that religion brings to communities large and small.
Since religion is an attitude towards life that is non rational: often falsely linked to higher moral principles; discourages free thought; creates unnecessary social division and encourages and permits manipulation, oppression and fear mongering by ruthless ayatollahs and people of that ilk... the best we can do is to preserve our democracies is to make certain that our governing bodies and tax supported institiutions are absolutely secular.
This policy should apply from the top down, starting with our written constitution, our foreign and domestic policies and government support in any way of religious bodies including our school systems.
There is a direct relationship between the degree of democracy exercised within a nation and the extent to which religious bodies are allowed to influence government.
This should apply in particular to any intervention in muslim dominated countries where Sharia laws are in effect.
The quicker we get out of Iraq and Afghanistan and cease other other Middle East meddling...the better.
#61/62/64 Solomon/Martha/Michael F: Please check out -
http://www.islam101.com/dawah/islam_explained.html
- written by nice, liberal Muslims.
Don't you get tired wheeling out these old, trite stereotypes?
I could ask Sadia who works next to me whether this stuff is true but I guess she's off home to get beaten and program her son for Jihad.
#57 Dougie: Trouble is, what we say about other cultures are self-fulfilling prophecies. So Cherie Blair is helping (in a self-serving kind of way) to foster understanding rather than just spouting tough rhetoric and paranoia.
Google 'the dark ages' to find out about periods when Islamic civilisations were somewhat more advanced than ours.
Hope I haven't annoyed anyone today: I'm just really, really into making money and enjoying life. Bye!
Go on Dougie: get that ominous last word in!
#56. Tim, that's not quite the accepted position on Hatshepsut and Tuthmosis these days. It's thought that it was during the XIXth Dynasty (The Ramessids) that events of the previous dynasty came to be viewed with hostility because of their sponsorship of the cult of Aton.
In a nutshell, it wasn't just Akhenaton who was behind the religious revolution. It went right back to his ancestor Ahmose and the rise of the Amun priesthood up to and including the reign of Hatshepsut. Tuthmosis III planned the reduction of Amun and his successors carried it through to the reign of Akhenaton and Nefertiti, who brought it to fruition, but failed when a palace coup took place and the new religion of Aton destroyed.
The remnants of the Aton cult fled into the desert, joined up with a group of Bedouin called the Habiru (Hebrew) who adopted the sole god Aton as their warlike Yaweh, and went on to conquer Canaan. Later on, this sole God became the Judeo-Christian Jehovah, and a little more later, was revealed to an Arab called Mohammed. He adopted this god and took him home. In other words, the Aton went full circle back into the desert and became Allah.
Aton was the disc of the sun and had no form as an idol. Neither of course did the Judean Jehovah. Or Allah. The Christians saw this god as Jupiter/Zeus. That's who's in all the holy paintings!
So, Egypt is the birthplace of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Akhenaton's sole god is the original god of all these religions.
It was men who screwed it all up with their own small-minded ideas and hatred of women.
*However it was the Ramessids hatred of the preceding dynasty that twisted the truth of Hatshepsut and Tuthmosis!
#69 Boy Wonder
As you yourself state, the interpretations of this period are in a state of flux.
As for Akhnaten, anybody who studies religion or Egyptology is aware that he is the antecedent of ALL the monotheistic religions.
Are you familiar with the American composer Philip Glass's(b. 1937) opera, "Akhnaten"?
It is being performed by the Met Opera in NYC and I am going. By the way, Glass is a Buddhist - go figure.
It is a beautiful work and encompasses ALL religious thought. I saw it when it was premiered in Europe and was breathtakingly staged.
THERE IS AND NEVER WILL BE ANY EQUALITY WITHIN ISLAM AMONG MEN AND WOMEN. IN ISLAM THE WOMAN DOES FOR THE MAN AND IS HIS TO DO WITH AS HE PLEASES, EVEN IF SHE IS WIFE NUMBER ONE OUT OF FOUR.
BILL WARNERPRIVATE INVESTIGATOR SARASOTA FLORIDA, WWW.WBIPI.COM
Boab,
I have three translations of the Koran, even the most liberal (least literal, by Maulana Muhammad Ali) still says that women are to be obedient to their men, that they are to be admonished and chastised if they are not obedient.
The other two, widely respected and acknowledged for their faithfulness to the original (Daewood and Arberry, see: http://www.amazon.com/Koran-Interpreted-Translation-J-Arb... and http://www.quranicstudies.com/article84.html), have it as I indicated above.
If more moderate, liberal followers of Islam are desireous of revising the Koran to make it less debasing of women and less violent over-all, wonderful. More power to them.
But it seems to me that the original is indeed very violent, as was Mohammed himself.
Clarification: when I wrote "have it as I indicated above", I was referring to my previous post.
This is how it is translated by Arberry and Dawood (as I said, I own three translations):
Arberry:
"Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended their property. Righteous women are therefore obdient...and those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them." (Women)
Dawood:
"While the Koran notes the religious and moral equality of the sexes, Sharia law differentiates between the roles and rights of men and women". FROM THE SCOTSMAN'S STORY ABOVE.
IN THE REAL WORLD OF ISLAM; Women are considered to be physically, emotionally, intellectually, and morally inferior to men.
Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week Day 3 By Donna M. Hughes FrontPageMagazine.com Thursday, October 25, 2007
Islamic fundamentalist ideology rejects universal equality and rights as set out by the UN Declaration of Human Rights and the basic principles and rights on which democracies are based.
The Islamic fundamentalism ideology rejects liberalism, women’s rights, moderate and liberal interpretations and practices of Islam, and promotes discrimination against non-Muslim religious groups, particularly Jews.
The political goal of Islamic fascists is to create a religious dictatorship, based on their version of sharia or religious-based law.
They oppose democracy and the western concept of freedom, claiming that Western democracies and laws are man made, and only the laws of God or sharia laws are valid.
According to sharia law, Jews and other non-Muslims, such as Christians and Hindus, can only have secondary status as citizens.
There is no freedom of religion. For example, under sharia law, if a Muslim converts to another faith, he or she can be punished by death.
Under Islamic fundamentalist ideology and law, men and women are not equal. Women are considered to be physically, emotionally, intellectually, and morally inferior to men.
BILL WARNERPRIVATE INVESTIGATOR SARASOTA FLWWW.WBIPI.COM
59 Media 1
"If I refuse to eat for 2 days, most would call me mad. If I refuse to eat for 2 days on the basis that my religion demands it of me, then most will accept my position."----------I can't think of a single religion that would expect you to refuse to eat for two days. Perhaps you can tell me! Religious fasting is usually for a day. Nowadays in most faiths it often means only abstaining from certain foods. Some types of fasting (e.g. ramadan) go on for more than a day but are only for part of each day, if you see what I mean. (I suspect you like your nosh - 2 days without food - wow!)-------------------------"then most will accept my position."------------------------No, I think that in our increasingly secular countries in the west the vast majority would think you even madder.------------------------The overwheening respect that we have for religion is absurd.-----------------------What "overweening respect"? Think carefully before you answer. The few remaining religious people around still have respect for their faith, but that's about it. No-one else does. I think you're trying to feel persecuted and you're living in the past.------------------------If we put a woman in a mask against her will, the world goes mad. If we put a women in a mask against her will and say its in the name of religion, its cool.-----------------------It's only cool to people who practice it, not many Christians support this sort of thing (me included) and only some Muslims. The wearing of veils of various kinds is a cultural, not a religious requirement, although it is more associated with some religions than others. It's overwhelmingly an Islamic problem, unfair to criticise other faiths for this. Also unfair to call it a religious problem.------------------------Religion is the single biggest threat to world peace.-----------------------
If I refuse to eat for 2 days, most would call me mad. If I refuse to eat for 2 days on the basis that my religion demands it of me, then most will accept my position.------------------I can't think of a single religion that would expect you to refuse to eat for two days. Perhaps you can tell me! Religious fasting is usually for a day. Nowadays in most faiths it often means only abstaining from certain foods. Some types of fasting (e.g. ramadan) go on for more than a day but are only for part of each day, if you see what I mean. (I suspect you like your nosh - 2 days without food- wow!)---------------------then most will accept my position.--------------------No, I think that in our increasingly secular countries in the west the vast majority would think you even madder.-----------------------The overwheening respect that we have for religion is absurd.--------------------------What "overweening respect"? Think carefully before you answer. The few remaining religious people around still have respect for their faith, but that's about it. No-one else does. I think you're trying to feel persecuted and you're living in the past.----------------------------If we put a woman in a mask against her will, the world goes mad. If we put a women in a mask against her will and say its in the name of religion, its cool.---------------------------------It's only cool to people who practice it, not many Christians support this sort of thing (me included) and only some Muslims. The wearing of veils of various kinds is a cultural, not a religious requirement, although it is more associated with some religions than others. It's overwhelmingly an Islamic problem, unfair to criticise other faiths for this. Also unfair to call it a religious problem.---------------------------------Religion is the single biggest threat to world peace.-----------------------
As a boy, I attended Presbyterian services, and the Minister used to pray asking God to not allow him to be "irresponsibly happy." I've spent years seeking a feminist oriented mystery cult with ritualistic midnight revels.
What puzzles me is why a belief becomes acceptable if you say that it is in some so-called holy book. Would the policies of many Moslems regarding women be acceptable if they were merely the policies of a political party?
Hitler made a bad mistake when he didn't claim that Mein Kampf was dictated by God. If he had National Socialism would be a religion and criticism of it would have to be much more circumspect.
#70. Yes Tim, I know. Have had my copy for years. Got all Philip Glass's stuff! One of the best minimalists ever!
Go direct. God made us and we made religion.
Atheists need not apply to 79.
Well, that's solved that then. Next.
Gnostic myself - much easier...
Ok, 67, Boab, you know I'm hardly going to turn down an offer like that :)
I don't think it's fair to accuse the above posters of wheeling out old, trite stereotypes because all they're doing is quoting from the Koran. Selectively perhaps but it's fair to say that in the real world, hundreds of millions take such passages to heart.
The link you posted is not less selective when it describes such things as the life of Mohammed who was after all a warlord for much of his life who spread his teachings throughout Arabia by conquest. Much of it is apparently quite deliberate disinformation for example when it suggests Islam "never impeded science nor the development of human thought". Part of the reason the west raced ahead with technology is because the Christian tradition generally regarded the quest to understand god’s creation as a way of glorifying god himself - while Islam has often regarded anything outside of religion as an unacceptable diversion, ie. everything important there is to know about the world is already written in the Koran. Many philosophers Muslims now claim as their own were in fact regarded as heretics in their own time.
When Osama Bin Laden describes moderate, secular Muslims as not true Muslims, he has a point; his own interpretations of what the Koran actually says seems to have more justification.
Anyway, far more important (to us non-believers) than what’s theologically or historically accurate is what the followers of a religion actually believe and how they behave. I agree with you that very many Muslims disregard or are ignorant of the more aggressive blood thirsty side to the Koran. I don’t see that it matters if the Koran tells Muslims to behead infidels or beat their women if in reality Muslims don’t behave in this way. The real problem is that very many Muslims do take this more aggressive interpretation to heart. In the spectrum of extremes between a secular liberal interpretation of the religion a
The following is my understanding, I’m not an expert so I may be wrong.
Pious Christians are encouraged to study and understand the bible for themselves; since Islam regards the Koran as the literal word of god, there are misgivings about reading it in translation and although I don’t speak Arabic, if I understand correctly, the original is very archaic Arabic that few modern Arabic speakers can understand. So although there’s a very strong tradition of studying the Koran and memorising passages, this is often done so without any understanding whatsoever. In fact, there are many Muslims who have memorised the entire thing without understanding any of it. Presumably such people rely on qualified imams for instructions on what to believe and how to live their lives. As a result, even more so than in Christianity, what the Koran actually says is relatively unimportant. What imams tell ordinary Muslims to believe is what the majority will believe. Perhaps this explains the striking differences between fundamentalist societies like Saudi Arabia and more moderate such as Albania.
In Christianity, more liberal interpretations have largely won out. In Islam, the two extremes are still competing. Partly because Saudi Arabia has a huge amount of oil wealth to throw around, it’s been very successful in pushing an extreme fundamentalist Wahabism in western countries. Although many Muslims in western countries are indeed moderate and secular, very many are undeniably dangerous extremists. I think the general trend is for Muslims in the west – well France, Germany, Netherlands and Britain anyway, – to be become more fundamentalist rather than less. I presume this is a combination of Saudi propaganda and simply that in a non-Muslim host population, Muslims flock to religion to differentiate themselves.
I don’t know what will happen to Islam in Muslim countries but in the west I think we have a lot to be worried about. Consider for instance this survey:<
BTW Boab, I take your point that Cherie Blair is trying a bit of propaganda herself to influence Muslims towards a more moderate position. It's just that since I doubt she has much prestige within the Muslim world, it's seems a little arrogant to say the least to be telling Muslims what the true message of Islam is :)
#36. antifa, Ed / 12:19pm 1 Nov 2007 "Electric Hermit - that was a very intelligent response to Smith's bigotry. But I'm bound to ask: what the hell are you doing on this board?"
Missionary work.
(#57) The New Testament of the Bible is the Fulfillment of the Old. With the exception of some historical battle and plague descriptions, the Old Testament is not "bloodthirsty" as the Koran. A look at the New Testament, for example, shows that Jesus and His apostles quoted copiously from the Old Testament. Proof for Jesus' coming can be found in the Old Testament books of Micah, Isaiah, and many others and, in fact, the early Christians spread the faith this way as the New Testament was not collected officially until the fourth century.
66. Boab, Glasgow
Nice post - there are too many punting religious hatred and intolerance here.
But obiously we actually need to protect ourselves from american bible thumpers...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
It makes as much sense.
88. Goomba, OhioFair enough, I haven't tried to read it; Muslims claim that the Old Testament contains the same kind of incitements to violence as the Koran. If you tell me this isn't so, I'll take your word for it.
87. weeshooie1
Heather would need a forklift truck to carry her winnings.
Freethinkers and followers. How often do we go to war against freethinkers?
Religion is power. Man made.
I'll rephrase 94. No I won't
The trouble with people like 'Boab' #67 is that they put on their 'liberal' (they think!) hats and try to be even-handed. His revered Islamic propoganda website - punted in his post - is a fairy tale for dhimmis!I challenge him to disprove ANY of the points I have made (in #61) and I'll offer an abject apology. I say this knowing that he, and his Islamophiles, cannot.The Western world (ie the 'civilised world') had better waken up. They are sleepwalking while an Islamic population Tsunami is about to burst upon them, and when they awaken they will find themselves in an Islamic worldwide caliphate that will have nothing but disdain for the 'Boabs' of the world!
Most of the worlds religions (not faiths) are designed and propogated by men. It is and always has been used a tool to control populations - particularly illeterate persons and in general where the knowledge has been limited.
Most of the controls against women stem from the earlier need of humanity to procreate and survive and where the basics were fight or flight.
Today's world has much more knowledge and awareness of injustices - and survival does not in many instances rely on fight or flight.
The format of todays sexist religions are designed and continue to be propagated by men who are basically inadequate when it comes to the female gender - and the tools for propogation are in the extreme terrorism such as by the Taliban and Saudi Arabia, Iran etc
Cherie Blair is right to question and continue to question on as big a stage as can be got the way these religions and their managers discriminate against women. There is absolutely no excuse in this day and age - and professors and academics should be ashamed of themselves for even trying to make excuses for them.
Imagine if it was men being treated that way - there would be civil wars!!
Suck,enjoy.
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/
Some posters have quoted that Mohammed said this and wrote that...
The truth is... and it is rarely quoted by muslims...that Mohammed was an itinerant, nomad and completely illiterate. I.E. incapable of reading or writing anything!
What is called the Koran and many other similar names was written several hundred years after his death and was an interpretation of passed down tribal memories of his thoughts and teachings. JC comes to mind.
Beware the the prophets and their followers.
how can it be inequality. it is there religion after all.
#83 Dougie: Fair enough points, I'll let the random net-users who are still on this thread make up their own minds!
#96 Solomon: I'll take your word for it that your two pieces of anecdotal evidence are true.
"This is a religion that controls millions of people worldwide with the philosophy that ‘you were born a Muslim and you cannot renounce Islam without the threat of death as an apostate'."
I can offer a similar statement:
"This is a religion that liberates millions of people worldwide with the philosophy that ‘you were born a Muslim and you should live in a spirit of peace and tolerance as the Prophet commands, all over the Koran, honest, you can Google it, and the ones I've actually met aren't so bad either.'"
As neither of us can disprove the other, I guess we should agree to differ.
Pinelands #13. I'm a pacifist and I'm not an idiot. Please don't make blanket assumptions about people. It has nothing to do with this story anyway.As a Christian and a feminist, I believe the Catholic Church has completely misinterpreted scripture for its own benefits. I used to be a member of Catholic Women's Ordination but left because of CWOs support for illegal ordinations which were taking place on boats and being carried out by 'dubious' Bishops. I believe in staying within the Catholic Church and campaigning within the Catholic Church.
#71 Peter
I am WELL aware that Buddhism is NOT a religion!
How some of you really, really underestimate me.
Do I have to SPELL OUT EVERYTHING?
So glad to learn that you are an aficianado of Philip Glass. His music is mesmerising.
Having studied music and having many professional musicians as friends, you either love him or hate him with a vengeance. I am the former.
It is so nice to learn of someone like yourself who has TASTE and DISCRIMINATION.
This is opposed to the Galactic Cannibal (California) philistines of the world - they mostly inhabit the murky and ignorant purlieus of the USA.
So glad to learn that you are an aficianado of Philip Glass. Having studied music and being acquainted with many professional musicians, you either love him or hate him with a vengeance. I am the former.
OF COURSE I know that Buddhism is NOT a religion but a way of thought. How some of you really underestimate me.
Of course Buddhism is a religion; so is Atheism and so is Communism.
So is any way of life, belief, system, moral code, fashion etc.
That is what the word means.
