Mr 'hootsman' I think putting your last part of text on here was distasteful!!
"REVOLUTIONARY TWINS" what if it is twins or triplets that are aborted?
How 'SICK' is that?

It is murder of unborn innocents who have no rights.

In the age of latex Johnies and goodness knows what else, there is really no need for the number of abortions that some people seem use as a method of contraception.

There are always plenty of couples who would dearly love to adopt babies and abortion has terrible consequences for the unborn and it usually causes mental and guilt problems on those who have aborted.

2. Faye / 3:18am 25 Oct 2007

Hey U .

Give me one logical reason why a homo sapien female would wait 20 or 24 week to abort.

I mean is she on drugs , like alcohol, crack coke, marijuana etc.

So she gets pregnant, and finds that out in say, 8 weeks max.
Then she has to decide to keep or abort.

Seems to me these women are incapable of making decisions, but are happy copulating and getting pregnant.

Nothing wrong with copulating . but if u don't want a baby then protect yourself .

The guys don't care , they are in there for the sensation of the orgasm.

GC

In 1984 there was a video called 'The Silent Scream' released showing the babies reaction in the womb to the initial pain as it was about to be broken up into little pieces before being sucked out of the womb.

Pretty disturbing stuff and I am ashamed to say places like Dundee have almost become the abortion capital of Europe!

The Scottish Loony Left smugly call this "women's rights".

BTW
Women have every 'right' to pay for their own abortions in a private hospital and not keep the NHS surgeons so busy my dad can't get a hip replacement - even though he's worked all his life and never been on the dole!

There needs to be an intelligent discussion of this entire issue - highlighted by the two reports that are here alongside each other. Loads of people want kids, others don't - surely it's not rocket science to ask how and if they might help each other? Or am I missing something? Could it just be something to do with the huge amounts of money made by fertility clinics, and the cash paid to abortion clinics? Or am I too cynical by far?

If, as #5 suggests, it is the Scottish loony left that cheers abortion on, then I presume it is, by his way of thinking, the Scottish loony right that want to make abortion illegal. Or maybe it's the loony centre, or the loony right of centre, or any other loony position you can think of.

Why can't we all be grown up about this. The god botherers generally do not believe in abortion, whereas normal people do, in certain circumstances. So, let the god botherers do what they want, and the rest of us will do what we want.

The only flaw in that argument though is that the god botherers, being "good christians", reckon that they have the right to impose their views on the rest of us. None of this "turning the other cheek" for them. It's a bit like the so-called "right to life" mob of good christians in America. They are so sure of their "rightness" that they will kill anyone that is involved in abortion clinics.

Obviously, to them, the "right to life" depends on whose side you are on. Don't you just love these religious types? Disagree with them and, suddenly, you have no right to life.

The god botherers also continually come out with all the emotive language and terms, like murder; and highlight their views with their own little horror videos and pictures. If they can't kill the opposition, they are determined to try and frighten them into submission.

Anyway, here's some news for the god botherers: we are all animals, just like monkeys, dogs, frog, cockroaches etc. So how many of these god botherers are quite prepared to kill animals, or have them killed for them to eat? Isn't killing one animal the same as killing any other animal? Ah, they say, we are not animals, we are god's creation. Well here's another news flash for you: there is no god. Religion is the opium of the masses and a crutch for the weak-minded. So, keep your mythological beliefs to yourself, mind your bus

#8 Guga. Well said coundn't have put it better myself.

What I do not understand about all this is the rationale regarding viability of the fetus at a certain number of weeks. How does the survival rates of babies born prematurely influence the decision on what is morally right regarding abortion? If a baby is not removed surgically whether it be at 9 weeks gestation or 24 weeks then surely its "viability" or chances of survival is the same as any other child that is left alone to naturally develop and grow? Once a child is born it's viability to survive is dependant on the care and protection we give it, this is the same for the unborn child. If we seriously abuse a child or any person for that matter then it will die the same as if we seriously abuse the unborn child by removing it from environment it needs to grow and develop. I cannot understand how anyone can accept that abortion is not child abuse in an extreme form. The unborn child is the most vunrable human form there is and needs our love and protection to survive and when this is given its "viability" is generally excellent.

Guga until you see an aborted child squirm in the bowl dont talk C***

If a termination (a much better word than abortion) is to be done, it should be as early in the pregnancy as possible, barring illness putting it off till later. Personally, I think 20 weeks is late enough. Beyond that, the foetus begins to develop definite human traits and termination at that stage takes on a different look. Which is why people think of it as murder ... especially to the weak-minded religio-superstitious lot.

The problem is that in the 70s and 80s, terminations were used as a blunt instrument and that has to be addressed.

Whatever the case, while the chattering classes will still go on about it ... it is still a woman's right of final decision. It is her body that has to house the foetus. It will be her decision to end it.

Boy Wonder you have obviously never seen a baby removed in bits after having his or her brains drawn out.

http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-A-4-video.html

view with care .........

This article won't be happy reading for womens groups who are fighting to keep the abortion limit as it is.
I am hopeful that the time limit will be reduced, 20 weeks gestation is more than enough time for a decision to be made.
I am not using religion for my views, I believe that Abortion is wrong to be used in the way it is at present.
I am aware of exceptions, and there is legislation to cover those.
It is obvious that sex and contraceptive education is required.
I am saddened to read the amount of Abortions carried out each year.

#11 Insanity is relative. As expected, the god botherers, true to form, immediately come out with their little horror videos to try and put the frighteners on normal people. Get a life, or a death, whichever comes first.

Most of the abortions commited these days are done on a small group of repeat offenders. Very few people are one time only offenders nowadays. It's the druggie, whore, Dweeb, and occational teen from a good home who are now doing this.

#15 i'm with you i agree 20 weeks seem more than enough time for a decision to be made. I think it should be there as an option and not made illegal again but 24 weeks is far too late, unless there are medical reasons for it i can't see why it would take that long to get one. More education is needed because becoming pregnant isn't the worst thing that can happen during sex.

# 18

Megz

Re: "becoming pregnant isn't the worst thing that can happen during sex."

Unless, you don't wish to become pregnant, of course.

Well said Guga II. Sanity is Relative, grow up.
There's a lot of hypocrisy and downright stupidity on the god-bothering side, notably the desire to do away with contraception, which would lead to more abortion. Bizarre.
I just hope we don't get into mad 'abortion war' type debates as some (albeit a minority) do in the US.

# 20

Abortion in the US is coming to an end as it is becoming harder find a place to perform one. Furthermore, Americans are starting to regain some of its wits now that the culture warriors from the 60's are getting old and dying off.

The deadline issue is important here - because deadlines force decision. The reason that there are terminations carried out up to 24 weeks is that the deadline is 24 weeks - it allows the pregnant woman to think for that bit longer. If the deadline was 20 weeks the decision would have to be made by 20 weeks. There are occasions when, incredibly, women do not realise that they are pregnant until late in the term - but this is SO unusual that it should not be an issue in this discussion. Much better all round to create a situation where the decision has to be made earlier.

The other issue, of course, is responsiblity. While it is easy to say that the women involved here should have taken more care it is fact that they don't get pregnant on their own. It is too easy for the man to carry on regardless of contraception because, ultimately, he can walk away from the result. I notice that many of the anti-abortion comments seem to be from men - which is so often the case.

#13. Don't assume anything. You have no idea what I may or may not have seen. Besides, a foetus is not a baby until it is fully formed and existing outside the womb.

I do think the deadline is far too high for an abortion. I had to have a amniocentesis and I didn't get the results back until the baby was 20 weeks. By this time he was kicking and moving about and thank god he was fine and I was not put in the position of thinking about an abortion, I really don't know if I could have aborted the baby even if the results had went the other way.

#8 Guga
My goodness Guga, you are an eloquent chap today! Well said!!

An abortion for any other reason than the health of the woman or potential baby. Should be by hysterectomy - mebay then those females and there are plenty of them who use abortion as a form of contraception will think twice.

#27 Rob
Followed swiftly by the irresponsible father being castrated for not being careful. Maybe then men will think of something other than their own sexual gratification.

#24 Boy Wonder I am currently 19 weeks, my little stranger is kicking and wriggling about like mad and I feel a very strong bond with my child. If this is not a baby then what on earth do you suggest it is?

Guga II, couldn't have put it better myself. Having a termination is usually a very difficult and PERSONAL decision.

To focus on 'repeat offenders' using it as contraception is to totally scew the debate - like we've not seen that before from those with an agenda... Do we really want to go back to the dark old days when it was illegal? I don't think so.

As much as we would all like the whole population to live by our own rules and moral standards, that, I'm afraid isn't the real world.

After losing three babies we were thrilled to finally have a pregnancy that kept going. Because of the problems we'd had in the past, we had scans done every week. We watched as our bub became a baby and I really do believe alot of people would be surprised at how early this happens. The most rewarding scan was the one we had at 19weeks where our little boy was sucking his thumb... and this he continues to do.
I believe every person has the right to choose whether they become a parent or not. However they should be making that decision for the right reasons and not simply because it's a bother. There are so many different methods of contraception in the world surely they could at least try one.
Abortions are a fact of life. If it isn't done in a clinic we would see many problems caused through backyard abortions and I thought we'd moved out of the dark ages.
I do believe the limit should be lowered. Just watching the changes in our growing bub proved that to me. At 23 weeks, our doctor told us if our bub was born he would be in for a battle but he did have a good chance of survival because of all the new technology.

So who is right? Both sides. A woman should be able to have an abortion if she so chooses but I'm sure if the limit was say 15weeks(an example only), she would make sure it was done before then. Why the need to wait till 24weeks unless it is really something she doesn't want to do but feels she has no other option? In which case, there is 'help' out there for her to go to.

The arguments are endless and I really don't think we'll ever see an answer that satisfies everyone at any time in my lifetime.

What a lot of mysogynists there are out there. Rob of Sunny Leith shame on you. You want the women to pay for her 'offence' of an unwanted pregnancy by having an enforced hysterectomy but I notice you said nothing about the offending male having enforced sterilisation. Those of us who are rationale pro democracy types feel that abortion is a matter of 'choice'. Whether you choose to have one or help perform one should be a matter of choice with no coertion by others. No one in their right mind would 'choose' to have a late abortion, it is a horrific process not least for the individual who has to actually 'give birth'. Let us also be perfectly clear that it is only medical intervention that has made it possible for babies born so prematurely at around 24 weeks to survive. Make no mistake the vast majority would not survive in the real world. The fact remains despite medical advances, the vast majority of severely premature childrens life chances are materially damaged by their prematurity. For every one that goes on to acheive what could be considered 'normal' development hundreds more will not. However abortion should not be seen as a form of contraception and those who use it as such should be made aware of this by a tightening of the legal procedure involved. I seriously hope that rationale shall prevail and we do not see legal abortion becoming the preserve of the rich and back street abortion for the poor.

One of the subjects that brings out every self righteous person in the land - male and female. I bet half of the folk here opposing abortion are males who, they may think they do, but don't have a clue what they are talking about. As for the women, do you suggest that someone who wants an abortion (for whatever reason) should go ahead and have the baby just to keep someone who cant have a baby happy - hardly. As for all those who just don't agree with it, try getting raped then pregnant and see how you deal with that!

No. 5 - I hardly think it either that it's women having abortions that keeping your dad from his hip op. Some women have worked for years also so why should they pay for an abortion - cause it's perhaps self inflicted. Maybe your dad's bad hip is self inflicted. You sound like one of those bleaters who go on about paying council tax blah blah blah so have every right to everything, get real.

If a women or young girl wants an abortion then she has every right, no matter what all you self righteous folk say, to have one under any circumstances. If someone is having this done on a regular basis due to unprotected sex then their doctor should steralise them, or educate them on protection, no questions asked.

Having an abortion is a personal decision and unless you have been through it you cannot even imagine hard a decision it is to make, you can try but you won't be near it.

Well, without wanting starting a full-blown argument on this thread, the book 'Freakanomics' shows that legal abortion can be responsible for a large drop in a country's murder rate. The argument is pretty convincing if you give it a read.

The abortion issue is misused by fundamentalists trying to extend their influence over mainstream society; so we should defend our current abortion rights. It's a shame some people are unable to use these rights responsibly, though.

boy wonder no answer to no 29?

and I doubt if you have seen a baby die in the shiny basin or one that has had his or her brain aspirated ........

I agree with woman's rights...of course I do..but given that, should it not be a man's right to euthenize a woman prior to the 24th week of marriage based on undo hardship?...one should not find it hard to find a sympathetic doctor in pursuit of a pound of silver... absurd? Of course, but hey abortion is murder and legal and 13,000 woman exercise that right every year in Scotland alone, so guys let's go for it before we lose it all to divorce...and, hey, while at it, why not our rights as parents to do similar to our troubled and extremely annoying teens?...and migod why not our right to eliminate politicians?...the list goes on....we all have rights, not just woman and in this day of the morning after pill. you know the one, the one Rome does not like and Walmart refused to dispense. what right does a woman have to murder a living being at the expense of the NHS...exceptions, of course, but does a girl not know she was raped etc before 1 week?

Oh, by the way, I just changed my mind after finishing the other letters..I have now found 35 reason for abortion...especially, well, too many to mention, but the one who quotes the rediculous statement about the "murder rate"... well I have a bridge over the Ray for sale.

bruce borland - you've one of those pathetic men who just don't have a clue what they are talking about. I hardly think marriage can be classed as the same as an abortion. Did the poor wee husband not realise he didnt like his wife until 24 weeks, it's not the same as an abortion. Oh and the morning after pill your bleating on about at £25 a time am not surprised females don't go for it. Mistakes do happen whether you have protected sex or not, but again the government want to make money out of it, perhaps if it were cheaper then more females would go for it, if you go to your doctor for it then you get interrogated re your sex life for the past 100 years. Don't see a man having to go through all that do you! Everyone has an opinion on everything but unless you deal with it personally you can only speculate.

Also, you don't have a clue either how a young girl would feel to be raped, let alone find out later, yes later, after 1 week, 2 weeks, 3 months even, that she is pregnant. Go back under your chavanistic hole you obviously just crawled out of and have a bit of emphathy for folk.

I am vehemently against abortion - and yes, I am a male. To those who by free will choice deny the existence of God, that is your right. To those who believe in and serve God, that is your right. It is NOT a case of "educating" people, namely the females in our society, about contraceptives and such. Believe me, far fewer than anyone will admit already know about such things at a very early age. No matter who says what, whether anyone will agree or not, it boils down to plain and simple choice. So many have unprotected sex because they are either stupid, lazy, or have an unhealthy mixture of the both. "Oh, I am not bothered, I won't get pregnant, go on then, lets have sex." Or "Lets skip the condom love, I will pull out before I orgasm." It is NOT, I repeat NOT a case of not being educated, it is a case of choice - women who get pregnant do so by choice, either they want a baby, or they are sadly too lazy to use contraceptaves in the "heat of the moment" - please, lets hear all the idiotic numpties out there spout off endlessly about that one. And then the idiot males who are pushing the female to have sex in the first place, bullies and morons all of them. No, the human race needs to wise up - Eupope pretends to be so "mature" about the sex issue, pointing at America as being immature - but I say no country on the planet whose government has intervened and declared murder/termination/abortion to be legal is grossly immature - period. Lets just leave God and war out of it for a moment - at what point should it be legal for each of us to murder another? I for one am bloody tired of the debate over when life begins - sorry - but the minute the zygote starts zipping around in the womb, guess what, you have life people. I know that there are now several generations of women and men who adamantly defend the so-called "right" to terminate life in a woman's womb - but could it be that they are wro

Sorry, far more than anyone will admit is what I meant to say.

#40 John
If you feel so strongly about the abortion issue - DON'T EVER HAVE ONE!!

That was a most solid and mature response #42 JG - very mature. I do believe though, following in the vein of your attempt at humour, if I were to become pregnant, I would be the most wealthy male on the planet now, wouldn't I?

No. 40 - you obviously missed JG point and more obviously prove that you think it is only a women who goes through an abortion. Having an abortion is not just about maturity - yes, it is life but it is still very much the right of the person carrying the baby to decide what to do - it has nothing to do with war or your beliefs in God. So if you get raped, or if your baby is deformed badly or if your life (sorry the womems) would be threatened by giving birth, that's ok is it to go ahead and have a child just because - well actually because what?? So if you help someone who is ill pass on does that mean you've committed murder too? There are no rights or wrongs here, things happen in life and decisions have to be made which most people would believe to be right at the time, whether we regret it or not later is a fact of life and you just have to get on with it.

It was never a "right" until our idiotic and spineless goverments made it a right. It is you Giraffe, and others like you, who do not "get" the point. I am fully aware that males are affected in the abortion issue as well. I am fully aware of a myriad host of information on both sides of the issue, and it still starkly points to being irresponsible, immature, and spineless to make that choice to terminate/murder/abort a baby. Yes, IF and only IF a woman's life is at stake and there is absolutely not another way to prevent it - at that time and at that time ONLY should an abortion ever be performed. And for those out there who seem to be so smugly informed and all-knowing on this subject, if you read your history - case books from doctors in times past WELL BEFORE abortion was made legal - professional doctors NEVER wanted to perform them at all - only if it put the mother in mortal danger. My mother is a most progressive modern woman, and she detests abortion. It is her staunch belief that if a woman doesn't want a pregnancy, then don't bloody have unprotected sex. (He words, not mine.) She has said on more than one occasion that both men and women behave most irresponsibly, and instead of owning up to their responsibility, they use the "right-to-abortion" excuse to "get out of trouble". Painfully indicative and absolutely supports MY (that's right, MY assertion) view that abortion is merely the sick and modern way of sidestepping one's responsibility, both female and male. As the Americans are so apt to say, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

And now for an area of the "right" that no one has or seems willing to comment on. There are loads of women out there, some who have had more than one abortion, who are now very much against having an abortion. They have not only murdered their own offspring, but they have damaged themselves mentally as well as physically, many to the point where they can never have a child ever again. Is fighting for and having this "right" worth not being able to procreate? Even under the best of conditions, things can and have gone horribly wrong in abortions, endangering the lives of women far more than just simply having the child and adopting it out. What is wrong with people in these modern times? Is the defense of a flawed thought process that gave the "right" to an abortion - in the guise of "hey don't you dare mess with my rights" so paramount that life itself is counted as less worthy? Or have we as a global society gone over the top so far as to count life as cheap and worthless? Apparently so. Just remember this, and at the expense of being called melodramatic, if we continue to abort ourselves, and slowly over time become a sterile planet, who will be around to champion such stupidity?

It is you No. 45 who does not get the point. Or your mother by the sounds of it. Doesn't she know a condom can burst, or the pill is only 99.9% reliable, and yes, that 0.1% has caused a lot of unwanted pregnancies. You seem hell bent on getting YOUR point across but that is all it is - your opinion. We are all entitled to our own, that does not make me or anyone else who doesn't agree with YOU wrong. Until you personally (which luckily will never happen) go through the emotions of deciding to terminate your baby then you ought to keep your nazi opinion to yourself.

#8

"Religion is the opium of the masses and a crutch for the weak-minded. So, keep your mythological beliefs to yourself, mind your business and let normal people get on with minding their business"

Ah, there is none so fanatical as the fundamentalist aetheist. So sure of his irrational beliefs and so intolerant of the beliefs of others.

"there is no god"

Prove it.

#29. I wish you well in your pregnancy. As you may know, there is a continuing argument about when the foetus "becomes" a baby. Religion states that it is during the "quickening" when a soul enters the foetus. Humanists take a more scientific view that it is a baby when it can exist outside the womb and independently of the mother's placenta and umbilical chord.

You pay your money and you makes your choice. Mine is that of the humanists, but I couldn't convince my partner of that ... and that's fair enough. A woman bonds with her child at a deeper, more emotional level than most men. I'm not going to argue that, which is why my partner always has the last word. As long as religion is "oot the windae", she knows her kids better than anybody ... even though I do try hard.

#35. Doubt what you like. I don't give a toss what you think. You do not know me or what I do for a living. I'm certainly not on the computer all the time responding to idiots like you! I have a life!

#8

"It's a bit like the so-called "right to life" mob of good christians in America. They are so sure of their "rightness" that they will kill anyone that is involved in abortion clinics.

"Obviously, to them, the "right to life" depends on whose side you are on. Don't you just love these religious types? Disagree with them and, suddenly, you have no right to life."

Well that's a pretty dumb argument, proceeding by way of massive generalisation. The number of people involved in bombing abortion clinics in the US is miniscule compared to the number of ""right to life" mob of good christians". You cannot take the criminal acts of a few and extrapolate it to all the rest.

That would be like condemning all Scottish nationalists for the actvities of the SNLA. Absurd.

Well well Giraffe. I am a Nazi now am I? And I have been wrong a good many times, and will be again, as will we all. It is not me in the spotlight but the reprehensible and grossly irresponsible decision that made it legal to abort - PERIOD. Perhaps, just perhaps, if the women who agonise over having an abortion are agonising over "I wish I had used contraceptives" instead, it puts things in a much clearer perspective. Of course I know condoms and invasive contraceptives fail. You may gleefully qoute statictics all you wish, but more often than not is what fails is a person's will use contraceptives to prevent a pregnancy in the first place. And that comes right back to personal responsibility, and the "C" word - CHOICE. If you choose to go ahead and have unprotected sex, then don't try and use the excuse "oh - I can just have an abortion and all is well." Sorry, but those who are as adamant about having the right to an abortion as I am about forever repealing it are just being irresponsible on SEVERAL levels, not just for having been stupid or lazy and gotten pregnant in the first place. That brings up yet ANOTHER point no one seems to want to bring up. How about abstinence? Wow, ponder that one. Say no, and pregnancy becomes impossible now, doesn't it? My my, am I standing on your toes Giraffe? Can I get an amen?

Everyone, in their heart of hearts, knows that abortion is wrong. Why else would the women who elect to have the procedure carried out feel so guilty?

People using the term 'God botherer' usually give evidence of being the most 'bothered' people themselves. This thread is no exception.

The Channel 4 programme last week on abortion was the most disturbing thing I've ever seen on tv and it's good to see so many people who commented on the C4 site saying that this made them rethink their position again about the whole issue.

No. 51 - you seem to think that all females who have had abortions take the decision lightly and it only happened because they were too lazy to use protection. I don't agree either with the one who do use abortion as contraception but that is only a percentage - what about the rest, these are the folk that I would support, in fact to be honest I'd support anyone who wanted an abortion, I may not agree with their reasoning behind it but hey, it's their life, not mine or yours. The Law is there for a reason which in turn DOES give a women the right to decide what to do regarding her pregnancy. There are zillions of other Laws which folk don't agree with but it'd be a funny old world if we all had the same opinion. Lets go back to the good old days will we with tons of orphanages opened up with unwanted children, being abused (in some of these establishments), lets see how we'd all get on then.

#34

"Well, without wanting starting a full-blown argument on this thread, the book 'Freakanomics' shows that legal abortion can be responsible for a large drop in a country's murder rate. The argument is pretty convincing if you give it a read."

That book was by the economist Steven Levitt. Another economist John Lott, has gone back to the original data, looked at it more carefully, taking into account relevant factors that Levitt ignored, and has concluded that the opposite was in fact the case. Read "Why the Free Market Works and Other Half-Baked Theories Don't" for an interesting argument. Levitt in turn has looked once more at the data, and has apparently refined it further. I have not yet read his further views though.

#48 Kobi.

If you attempted to understand what I was saying, which obviously you didn't, you would have realised that I don't mind people having their very own weird beliefs and mythologies. I only object to them trying to force their views and beliefs down my throat. That is not intolerant. On the contrary, it is very tolerant. It is the religious fanatics that are intolerant.

My "irrational beliefs" are neither irrational, or beliefs. I just don't believe in your mythical sky god, or any others for that matter.

As for your rather silly comment asking me to prove there is no god, surely it is up to you to prove there is one? It is impossible to prove something does not exist when there is no proof that it does. You, however, seem convinced that there is a god, so surely it is up to you to prove its existence? You could always try calling on your sky god to strike down all the unbelievers with a bolt of lightning.

In any event, till you can prove the existence of your particular form of mythology, I suggest you stop trying to force your mythological beliefs on other people, and that includes wanting laws framed to enforce your weird concepts.

Oh you are too right #54 Giraffe, why oh why am I arguing with you or anyone else on this issue? Lets just sweep it under the rug along with your lame generalisation of "zillions of other laws which folk don't agree with." Yes, everyone has rights, and we should do everything we can to not only champion them, but fight against everyone who challenges them, right or wrong. As for the good old days, well, the people are the same now as they were then, selfish, HELLBENT (remember that one eh Giraffe?) on getting THEIR way, irrespectful of the damage it may do to someone else, but hello? these are my rights, yes? Champion rights! Down with ANYONE who challenges my rights!

#5 You clearly don't know a great deal about doctors or infact the NHS. Doctors don't carry out abortions, nurses do. Also, every doctor has their own field of expertise so the doctor who doesn't even carry out abortions, wouldn't be operating on your father's hip.

Every woman should have the right to abortion but it shouldn't be "just another method of contraception" and the limit should be decreased to twenty weeks.

The number of abortions in the country is disgraceful and more than likely down to people not taking adequate precausions but surely it's better to allow abortions to take place rather than let a child be brought into the world to be dragged up by some incompetent fools and more than likely live off state benefit. Which is most likely to be the case as statistically, more well off females are more likely to have an abortion than their less well off counterparts.

The morning after pill is pretty much a mini abortion if you think that life exists as soon as the egg is fertilised.

In some cases such as my friends, she needed an abortion and it was held up because the doctors surgery staff forgot to phone her and book the appointment.

Boy Wonder you are completely wrong to say the baby is still a foetus until it's born. As a biologist, I can tell you the baby is pretty much fully formed after 30 weeks and just growing in size.

Also, I'm religious and I fully believe in abortion for the right reasons.

Andrew #52, I hate to disappoint you but I don't think abortion is wrong nor does every woman feel guilty about having one. Anyone I know who's had one feels they made the correct decision.

I'm not entirely convinced men should really have an opinion or a decision on abortion as you'll never have to go through, nor will you ever know what it is like to carry a child. Saying that, I've never had an abortion or a child but I am a woman.

#53 Weegie58. Yes, some people are "bothered" by god botherers, as these types of people try and force their beliefs on others, even to the extent of trying to have laws framed to uphold their mythology.

Don't bother us, and we won't bother you. If you want to pray all day Sunday, or refuse you or yours having an abortion, fine; but don't bother the rest of us by trying to make us pray all day Sunday, and don't try to stop us or ours having abortions.

The 1967 Act as amended effectively says that an abortion is not illegal up to 24 weeks if two doctors decide that the risk to a woman’s physical or mental health or the risk to her child(ren)’s physical or mental health will be greater if she continues with the pregnancy than if she ends it.

How many well is the law being adhered to? How searching is the examination the two doctors must make to ascertain the relative risks (serious question, I've never being in the position of having that interview)?

Do some doctors just automatically take it as a given?

Given.

GC in Murietta, CA: No, Dog (Chapman) does not believe in abortion-- he's the father of 12 children. So your bringing up Dog's name is puzzling. (It's not like I don't know you really meant God.)

Abortion is a terrible thing. It isn't just a quick and easy method of birth control. Women and girls who undergo abortions, for whatever reason, run a very real risk of severe emotional repercussions, to say nothing of possible physical consequences. And of course there's a dead and usually dismembered babyinvolved too, but apparently nobody cares about that.

I used to regard abortion as an act of desperation, giving the people who had abortions the benefit of the doubt. No longer. The law is no helpwhatsoever; in many countries, an unborn baby has rights of inheritance, but not the right to live. This is totally contradictory. In other words, the baby only has the right to live if its mother approves of its life; if she wants it to live up to a natural birth, then it has all the civil rights of any individual at any other stage of life. If she doesn't, then she has the right to murder it.

This is the slippery slope that leads to, among other things, euthanasia, eugenics, and mass murder of one group of people deemed by another group of people to be somehow "unfit."

58.

"I'm not entirely convinced men should really have an opinion or a decision on abortion as you'll never have to go through."

Great point…

The idea that there is some cut off point before which it is ok to end the life of a human is absolutely bizarre. It was not ok yesterday, but today, hey, fire ahead! (And before anyone says ‘it’s the law’, I know it is the law, and it is the law that I am criticising and would like changed). Why the law should give women the authority to make this decision is beyond me.

Women were lucky enough to get the vote for goodness sake

(That was a joke)

Kobi: Maybe you can explain how doctors use their crystal balls to determine whether a woman will have more angst after an abortion than she would have had in giving birth to a full-term infant.

Giraffe: I agree with you that abortion is an extremely difficult issue. And, there are certainly times when it is justified. For example, if a 12 year old is found to be pregnant, then clearly she is the victim of rape, whether violent or statutory, and abortion may be a better solution in that case.

But what is really sickening about this whole issue is that in countries where people demonstrate and vote and argue and riot and ultimately renounce the death penalty for the most depraved murderers, the killing of the most helpless and innocent human beings is not thought of as evil, but rather as an alternative to other forms of contraception that the sex partners are too stupid, lazy, or ignorant to use.

Its often I come on these pages, having a 'rant', but today because of this issue, i would really like to tell what its like from both sides of the coin, unfortunately not the Babies.
I have two girls (grown up now) with my ex, we were one of the first in Edinburgh to use the at that time, the new birthing room at our hospital to have our second child, which was a marvelous experience.
We also went through one termination, although that was years ago, even as a guy I don't forget about this dreaded time, so what it like for the Woman must be worse! and 'The terminated Baby', we can only imagine, if our minds let us, or possibly if you are religious, you might meet your dead Baby again someday!
As many of you know my DYW (darling young wife) and I have been TTC (trying to conceive) for 10years now, had a little help about 3years ago but no luck, we are lucky to have been given an appointment date soon to start trying for a 'BaBa' again soon.
Both my DYW and I don't have hate fr anyone that has had an abortion, but its something we both could never do, unless under Extreme circumstances, but even at that my DYW, would rather die herself, than terminate a Baby inside her.
As many should know, a 'Baby' is FULLY FORMED at about 12weeks, then its 'grow, grow, grow', so YES the 'Mums-to-Be' on here at about 18-20 weeks, it is A CHILD you feel, She or HE doesn't suddenly turn into a Baby at birth!
Also as many said, its an argument with NO easy answer, for me now, after years of having a wife working with Babies and all the courses I help her with my attitude has changed on abortion, you see even when my wife thought she was pregnant, that was it, it WAS OUR BABY, and my wife would be very careful in all she did and even I felt all 'father-like' and protective!
Life starts at conception DAY1, I used to think it was OK to abort at 20weeks, then 15weeks, but after doing a study on conception to birth, I think 15weeks is a 'no-no'!
So

Thank you Martha.

#62. Martha, it's simply not true that abortion usually involves a dismembered foetus. The suction method is only used in the late stages. The overwhelming majority of abortions are done by the pill method in which case the foetus is passed in one piece.

I dislike to quote a previous reply to a similar forum, but here goes!
In the year 2007, providing a female has the minimum of intelligence; she has no "NEED EVER" to become pregnant, with the easy availabilty off the many varied contraceptive "tools" or, use the oldest practice known to previous generations, but rarely used these days it seems; cross their legs, and say NOT TONIGHT MATE!

#55 Kobi: I confess I've never heard of 'Freedonomics'. Sample from it's Amazon blurb:

"Why legalized abortion leads to family breakdown, which creates more crime"

"Why the controversial assertions made in the trendy book Freakonomics are almost entirely wrong"

Sounds like Ann Coulter forgots to take her meds one day and wrote an economics book. Feel free to point me to any useful articles on it though.

#56

"If you attempted to understand what I was saying, which obviously you didn't, you would have realised that I don't mind people having their very own weird beliefs and mythologies. I only object to them trying to force their views and beliefs down my throat. That is not intolerant. On the contrary, it is very tolerant. It is the religious fanatics that are intolerant.

My "irrational beliefs" are neither irrational, or beliefs. I just don't believe in your mythical sky god, or any others for that matter."

Mmmm. You protest a lot about being tolerant but your words scream otherwise.

Aetheism is a religion just like any other. It is irrational as it is based purely and utterly on faith. As your words show, it is equally as intolerant as most religions. Nothing more.

"As for your rather silly comment asking me to prove there is no god, surely it is up to you to prove there is one? "

Sorry, no. You made the assertion "Well here's another news flash for you: there is no god." I have not asserted that there is a god. You have made a statement without any evidence to back it up. The problem you fanatical aetheists
have, and it drives you nuts, is based on the best principles of science, you cannot prove your theory. So it is a belief, nothing more. No different from those that believe.

The only scientifically rational position is agnosticsm.

And nowhere have I advocated "wanting laws framed to enforce your weird concepts." I believe that the only time the state should intervene is to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

#64

"Kobi: Maybe you can explain how doctors use their crystal balls to determine whether a woman will have more angst after an abortion than she would have had in giving birth to a full-term infant."

No crystal ball here. We are talking about amending the existing law, when I suspect that the existing law is not really complied with as it is. I have read (many years ago) the parliamentary debates relating to the passage of the 1967 Act (and also of the amending legislation), and my feeling is that what we currently have is not what Parliament intended. That is reinforced by recent comments from Sir David Steel.

Whether there SHOULD be abortion on demand in law is another matter.

I do wonder what kind of debate we'd be having if it was possible (and I expect one day it will be) for a foetus to grow in an artificial womb, making any abortion time limit irrelevant.

#70

Boab. I don't have my copy of the book with me at the moment, and the only reviews I can find on-line are on paid for sites.

I don't think that argument is conclusive either way, which is why I originally commented. I think that it is an ongoing debate, but I do think the original thesis in Freakonomics was too simplistic, perhaps because it fed on the intuitive belief that "poor and/or dumb people get knocked up, poor and/or dumb people commit most crime, abort potential poor and/or dumb people and crime rates drop".

(Apologies to any poor, dumb, poor and dumb, or criminally-minded people that I have just insulted. Your HRA compo cheque is in the post.)

#73

The debate would be about how the evil and corrupt BirthoCorp was making money out of the joy of birth, while the state Department of Reproductive Control was taking 24 months to produce a baby to term and had decided that 90% of new babies in 2050 were to be born black.

Oh, and that Scotand should have its own Weans World.

radical theologian -- You are missing only one detail the abortionists and fertility clinics keep from the discussion:

It is possible to take the unwanted baby from the mother's womb and place it in the womb of a woman who does want it. This is not even "cutting edge" science, but it is an "inconvenient truth".

Kobi.
As much as atheists require to prove that god does not exist, religious people also have to show that he does. Which they fail quite miserably to do.

Atheists have a hard job on their hands in trying to disprove the existence of something that doesn’t exist.

Mr X: I have an invisible turtle flying above my head.

Mr Y: No you don’t.

Mr X: Prove I don’t.

#43 (and various other posts) John.....
I am not at all immature and (as I've said many times on similar boards) the people who are pro-choice are not forcing women to have abortions they don't want to have. If a woman is pregnant and wishes to go ahead and have the baby, that's perfectly fine - I hope all goes well for her and that she and her family are very happy. Unfortunately not everyone is blessed with a stable relationship and not all babies are conceived through an act of genuine love. I do not agree with women using abortion as a means of contraception and I think men should be compelled to take their responsibilities seriously - not all of them do. Do you really think that women didn't have abortions before the Act came out in 1967? They obviously did, only not safely and at great risk to their own health. This disapproval of allowing women to make that choice was driven largely by a misogynistic clergy and, while my comment might have been a bit glib, (and while I'm not denying you your right to an opinion) you have no right to try to force someone to make a choice that you will NEVER be in a position to make yourself.

Its not murder if the baby is aborted within 12 weeks. I think its fair to offer women the chance to decide what they want to do, but we need to have a time frame that is at least morally correct.

12 weeks to me is fair. And any doctor carrying out such practices thereafter, can then be dealt with accordingly. If that leads to some women going to back street places then so be it.

The pro lifers are nothing more than insular fools whose agenda is anything but pro life.

#59 Guga

'Don't bother us, and we won't bother you. If you want to pray all day Sunday, or refuse you or yours having an abortion, fine; but don't bother the rest of us by trying to make us pray all day Sunday, and don't try to stop us or ours having abortions.'

Your point is idealistic and unrealistic. How far would you take this? If a religious group advocated practicing paedophilia would you just say 'fine; but don't bother the rest of us by trying to make us practice it?'

#79 Media 1
You clearly haven't got a clue!

#81 JG

Oh and you have?

Who the hell are you to determine what a woman can and cannot do with her body and unborn baby?

Are you the self proclaimed ruler of the masses?

Is it murder if I pull out prior to ejaculation? It would appear that I am the sort of person who is pro live and let live, whereas you are the sort of person who wants to dictate to others.

#82 Media 1
Not me! I am pro-choice. If a woman wishes to have an abortion through her own informed choice, that's up to her. I would prefer she did it medically under advice from medical people, not on someone's kitchen table as they did in the dark ages. And I don't care what your sexual behaviour involves.

My sexual behaviour has nothing to do with it..Men all over the world masterbate, they pull out prior to ejaculation. It happens! Is that now murder?

Where do we draw the line?

Abortion is a womans right!

#84 Media 1
I think you'll find the "masturbating" issue is (or was) a view held by the Catholic church. The only point I'm disagreeing with you on is the bit where you said you'd be happy to see women using the back street abortionists again - I'm not. A woman's choice is a woman's choice.

I didnt say that I would want to see them doing it. But we need a cut off point. Or at least, we need a cut off point that is morally correct.

That will lead to some women seeking back alley assistance. But how do we avoid that?

#86 James

Speaking of athiests and believers.

The bible tells us that god murdered a total of 2.7 million people, whereas the devil killed 10.

Seems to me that the bible and the believers are the biggest threat to this world. Faith is great! Faith in the genie, faith in many gods, faith in one god, faith in positive thinking, its all the same thing at the end of the day. Its just that athiests cant bring themselves to accept the serial murdering god who massacred 2.7 million people, or the devil who killed 10...They are more inclined to seek inner peace and respect for all mankind.

Its a contentious issue, but religion has nothing to do with abortion, if it did, then the believers would be emulating their god by murdering everything in their path. Abortion is a last resort decision for desperate people in desperate situations. Its not nice, but it happens, and we need to accept it.

#89 James

My figures come from exact extracts of the bible. Why they call it the good book is beyond me..

Athiests have little to do with abortion. What does atheism have to do with abortion? Some people are pro choice, some people are'nt. I would stop every abortion if I could, but I cant. Its a persons right to have an abortion, and even though I could never involve myself in such a practice, I need to accept that some people have to.

#88

"Its just that athiests cant bring themselves to accept the serial murdering god who massacred 2.7 million people, or the devil who killed 10..."

Or the aetheists who killed hundreds of millions, like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Guevara, etc etc

#87 Media 1
I would rather see a woman be able to seek medical help for whatever than resort to amateur abortionists. And whose morals do you use as a guide? The Catholic church? The politicians? The medical profession?

#91 kobi

Hitler was a devout catholic and friend of the Vatican.. But thats not why he killed.

Dictators are motivated by political power, not religion. Athiests chose not to worship, cultivate and praise the bible god who murdered 2.7 million people, and thats their right!

#93 James
But that's the whole thing - a foetus is not a person - not yet. I know the Catholic church believes that "life" begins at conception but, realistically, it begins when a being is born. What is an athiest? Is it someone who doesn't believe in God or just someone who doesn't believe in YOUR version of God? I believe in the right of the woman to make her own choices in this. We're cleverer than some of you think!!!

#94

"Hitler was a devout catholic"

Not true. Although he was born into a Catholic family, after he was confirmed he never once went to mass, took the sacrament, or attended confession.

Do not confuse what he said in public for political advantage to a Germany that was largely Christian, with what he really thought.

Abortion is just a word to many people, the act itself is barbaric. Here we have a child born in one ward while in another an OLDER child may be having his or her brains sucked out and the body dismembered. How can that be right?

To me its exactly the same as a man saying the 12 year old girl is menstruating therefore if she wants to have sex with me then that is HER RIGHT ......

Abortion is murder.

James:

Nonsense. Since when do athiests impose their views on others?

Is there an athiest book that is preached to the masses? Is there an athiest class at school? Is there athiest buildings all over the world in which athiests gather to chant to the killer of 2.7 million people? Is there an athiest programme on telly tricking people to parting with their hard earned cash? Is there athiest organisations dictating to the rest of the world? Is there an organised athiest movement?

Your guy killed 2.7 million, its there for all to see.

Abortion is a painful decision for a woman to make. Some are raped and fall pregnant, some are prostitutes and fall pregnant, some are very young an unprepared, some are single and afraid, some are to poor to keep themselves. They are not killing people, they are terminating a foetus, and for that reason their desperate actions must be accepted.

80 re 59 I have wondered about his views on peado ........ he seems to me that if ya wanna do something then go ahead ............

100 athiests impose their views on others ALL the time please read above, there are plenty here for a start.

#99 The Fly Fifer
I DON'T THINK SO!!! Try THAT one on and you'll end up at the High Court - it is against the law!!! Abortion is not and women can make their own choices.

I'm seriously worried about you!!!

#100

"Your guy killed 2.7 million, its there for all to see."

If you don't believe in God, then clearly none of that happened. So what are you rabbiting on about?

Thats the trouble the peados in this country get sentenced to a few years, many who were caught by the American FBI sting ARE STILL NOT prosecuted, many not even been looked at yet by the authorities, there were to many of them, There should have been a task force formed as big as was necessary to deal with them and the HIGH COURT give 100 years sentences to each and every one of them, but no!! not a priority, just as it seems not a priority to save unborn children.

I think it strange we agree that young children need protection from molesters but we do not agree on letting the child be born in the first place.

I find many PC brigade online here to be taking over the asylum basically and it will all end in tears ...........

102 The fly flyer:

Not as a world wide organised industry they dont..

Please dont try and tar athiests with the same brush as the serial murdering bible god worshipers.

Normally, I don't get involved in threads this long, but I'm going to this time.

#'s 8, 12, 22, 26, 28, 32, 33, 38, 49, 78, and 97: I agree overall with you all. There are other postings that I agree with partially, but I won't list them here, as there are too many.

Would I have an abortion if I got pregnant? Yes. I have never wanted children, and at 49 and in peri-menopause, am now (in my opinion, which is the only one that counts on this issue) too old to have them. If my birth control should fail, and I find out that I am pregnant, then I, and only I, am the person to make the final decision for or against abortion. It is my body, and my life that are at stake here. I have taken into account whether or not I would be able to raise that child adequately, and the answer is a resounding "NO."

I do not believe that life begins at conception, so let's not go there.

I fail to see why anyone other than the woman and her (preferably female, if she is lucky enough) doctor should have any say in the matter. No-one other than the woman is the one who will have the procedure, so don't make it harder than it already is.

107 Just Bible? or Torah or Qu'ran etc?

See its easy to be anti Christian but if you speak up against the Jews you are anti-sememetic or the oother lot you are anti them the last two are classed as hate crimes but Christians are fair game ........ for vitriol and hatred

#109 The Fly Fifer:

The various flavours are irrelivant, they all share the same underlying principle, and they all force themselves on others. They are all organised, they are all money makers, and all taught to children without their consent.

The same cannot be said about athiests.

2.7 million murders is horrific, but more horrific, is that some people praise the person who carried out the attrocious crimes, and then have the cheek to judge people who are pro choice in terms of the termination of a foetus.

#107

"Please dont try and tar athiests with the same brush as the serial murdering bible god worshipers."

As I have already demonstrated (using your pointless and dumb principle of extrapolating generalisations), the serial murdering aetheists are far worse than the peace-loving bible worshippers.

#110

"all taught to children without their consent. "

Which is exactly what the mad fanatical fundamentalist loony aetheists do about their nutty and unscientific creed to children.

Josef Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili, he was a good athiest and his kill rate was more that 2.7million

#112 Kobi. You really need some help. It looks like you've definitely lost the plot.

None of you believers can win this arguement.

I am not saying that christianity is bad. I only said that christians are in no position to see themselves as more moral than athiests.

And the reason I say that, is because the believers belong to an organised world wide cult, which has rules and regulations based on bronzed aged political rhetoric. Whereas the athiests simpy cannot bring themselves to cultivate and worship the killer god.

So Guga if you have children do you teach them about as many religions as you can, explain the laws of the land, morals from as many standpoints as you can think off or do you spout your bigoted hatred of the polis in their hearing and tell them God does not exist? Do you give them a choice or force yours on them?

#118 James

I will ask you again.

1. How many school classes have compulsory athiest classes?

2. How many athiest preachers do you see on television?

3. How many athiest buildings are there around the world, which host millions of chanting people?

4. How many athiest parents force their kids to pray and worship the killer god of some athiest bible?

5. How many athiest folk sell their stories to the masses for millions of dollars?

6. How many athiests tell others that they are going to some bad place after life on Earth?

7. How many organised athiest organisations exist around the world?

8. How many athiests pray, cultivate and worship a deity who is responsible for 2.7 million people?

You can worship all you like, you can pray all you like, but dont confuse abortion with atheism. Because once you do that you open the door for me to ask why youre so against abortion, but so happy to celebrate, cultivate and honour a god who killed 2.7 million people.

#115

"You really need some help. It looks like you've definitely lost the plot."

If by "lost the plot" you mean "enlightened by the forces of reason and logic" then you are correct.

Aethiesm = yet another religion.

#24 BW How sad you really feel that way. I would have thought you knew Psalm 139 13-17

#120

1) Most classes are taught from the viewpoint that religion cannot intrude. Except aetheism.

2) Well most of the BBC's viewpoint is exactly that, and you can't get Richard Squawkins off the telly.

3) well football stadia, concert halls, etc etc etc

4) how many aetheist parents force their kids to believe in the teachings and values of Marx, the prophet to most of the murdering despotic aetheists the world has seen?

5) in this celebrity worshipping world, the answer is hundreds.

6) how many athiests tell others that they are going to nowhere at all after life on Earth?

7) hundreds.

8) millions worship the adherents to aetheistic Marxist terror - some even wear their face on their T-shirts.

Aetheism = just another religion.

I used to believe in god. Off-course I did, I was pre programmed to believe in it.

But when I was old enough and able to study the three Abrahamic religions, I found out how distasteful they were. I had to stop following the divine route that was forced upon me by society. I had to accept that my human side could not tolerate the horror in the bible. I could not bow to a god who killed 2.7 million people, so I stopped.

But my views on abortion were the same prior to any change in me. I have always been opposed to abortion, which is why I would never go down that road myself. But I am old enough and mature enough to accept that some people are not as fortunate as I have been. Some see abortion as their only way out. In desperation they act out of character and I cant judge them for that. As long as they are aborting within a time frame that the medical world agrees with, then who am I to judge?

Who is anyone to judge? Especially those who praise the work of a divine serial murderer.

James

You can worship who you like.

I chose not to pollute my childs mind with religion. I teach her to be honest, to treat people with the resepct they deserve, to never hurt people emotionally or in any other manner, to assist those less fortunate, to always strive to see the best in others, to do what she feels is right, to follow her dreams, all the stuff that all parents want for their kids. She can make her own mind up one day, it is not fair for me to pollute her mind with stories about incest, murder, human sacrifice, rape and pillage. I dont want to scare her, I want to help her grow. If she decides to follow a path to a god one day then that is her perogative, and a decision she has made.

Like I said, my views on abortion are the same now as they were then.

And yes. Off-course athiests refuse to worship the god entity. They dont believe he exists! Bronze aged political rhetoric is exactly that. The scriptures are old and they are full of rules that contradict eachother. Your world wide cult is known as organised religion!

Dont take this any further James.

You are not equipped with the mindset to challenge me on this topic. I may not be intellectually gifted to the point of genius, but I am able to think on a level, which far exceeds the boundaries to which your mind is shackled.

I wish you all the best in your endeavors to find yourself, I mean that. Go well, goodbye

How many has God killed?
I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42
How many people did God kill in the Bible?
It's impossible to say for sure, but plenty. How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? There's just no way to count them all.

So far I come up with a total of 2,270,971 (not including, at least in some cases, women and children). SAB, Brick Testament Number Killed Cumulative Total
Lot's wife for looking back Gen.19:26, BT 1 1
Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord" Gen.38:7, BT 1 2
Onan for spilling his seed Gen.38:10, BT 1 3
Pharaoh and 600 chariot captains (plus his entire army) Ex.14:8-26 601+ 604+
For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf Ex.32:27-28, 35, BT 3000 3604+
Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord Lev.10:1-3, Num.3:4, 26:61, BT 2 3606+
A blasphemer Lev.24:10-23, BT 1 3607+
A man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath Num.15:32-36, BT 1 3608+
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) Num.16:27, BT 12+ 3620+
Burned to death for offering incense Num.16:35, 26:10, BT 250 3870+
For complaining Num.16:49, BT 14,700 18,570+
For "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" Num.25:9, BT 24,000 42,570+
Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) Num.31:1-35, BT 90,000+ 132,570+
God tells Joshua to stoned to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing. Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26, BT 5+ 132,575+
God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho (kill everyone). Joshua 8:1-25, BT 12,000 144,575+
Joshua kills 5 kings and hangs their dead bodies on trees Joshua 10:24-26, BT 5 144,580+
God delivered Canaanites and Perizzites Judges 1:4, BT 10,000 154,580+
Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife

There is another 4 pages. But no need for that, I think you get the point.

#118 James
I don't think I saw anywhere that said you weren't entitled to your opinion, only that you shouldn't try to impose it on other people. Not that you need my permission - you carry on and worship whatever God you like - if it gets you through the day then fine - but again, don't try to impose your beliefs on me. The abortion debate should be guided by the medical people with the final choice lying with the woman - she has a will of her own and the right to decide.

Media 1 -- "My figures come from exact extracts of the bible. Why they call it the good book is beyond me.."

That is not a very good answer. What exact extracts? Can you give ANY citations?

Doesn't matter if no one can change your mind, but if you don't want to look like a lunatic, you should not rave like one, and try to make a logical argument instead of insulting all believing people. It is very offensive, and I believe against the rules of the thread.

So, how about those citations?

120, I try to be a Christian,

1, apart from some science classes and all those in China . i suppose none
2, no such thing as an athiest preacher so none
3, Budist temples I suppose but otherwise none
4, none they tell their children their own views of no God
5, Christopher (sic) Hitchins for one
6, none
7, there are surprising more than you may think, Bohemian Grove for example,
8, none

Now confusing abortion with athiesim I dont think that should be a problem no confusion at all

Well, you posted your estimates while I was writing. Good enough. Still think you're raving.

#8 Guga........ Are you still bleating on with that Marxist nonsense? ........#9 You seem to be an atheist without a brain. Come to think of it, most atheists dont have a brain,otherwise they would'nt be atheists.Get my drift!

Media 1 you are brining your daughter up in a good Christian mindset well done .......... nothing any different from a Christian childs upbringing. I will pray for you both,

I will also pray that one day she does not come to you and say "I just had an abortion dad, my partner Josephine decided she didny want ane o' they turkey baster bairns efter a' an you aye telt me it wiz ok tae think fur ma'sell"

#127 Media............ I wish that I was as sure of God's existence as you are of his non-existence.

Oh and you ought to give credit when you quote others work Media 1 but I know you will be teaching your daughter to be truthful

the site for those interested is attributable to another not Media 1

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-...

God is to blame for the sorry state we find all ourselves in today Globally!
Wasn't it him who created all?
I suppose taking it literally; that means too me, if he created the good things off life he also created what is bad; Including Bush and Blair, two off his staunchest followers!

Dont be so sure about those who you name in 140 ........ go check out Bohemian Grove ........ lost of athiests there and some very interesting members :-)

139 James , well argued,

Yes James, 'fraid he did, but he is trying, he is seeking, one day maybe , just maybe, ........ :-)

Guga II and the posters who agree with your post at 6.52 am.

"Why can't we all be grown up about this. The god botherers generally do not believe in abortion, whereas normal people do, in certain circumstances. So, let the god botherers do what they want, and the rest of us will do what we want."

That's pretty much what the situation is at the moment. What's your problem?
-----------------------
"The only flaw in that argument though is that the god botherers, being "good christians", reckon that they have the right to impose their views on the rest of us."

Or, put another way, democratically and peacefully try to change your mind by persuasion.
Or are only Atheists allowed this priveledge?
------------------------
"None of this "turning the other cheek" for them. It's a bit like the so-called "right to life" mob of good christians in America. They are so sure of their "rightness" that they will kill anyone that is involved in abortion clinics."

Ridiculous, childish exaggeration. I know of two instances of murder (in the US) which were done as a protest against abortion. I agree that's far, far too many, but nothing like "they will kill anyone that is involved in abortion clinics".
Grow up. You're "pretty sure of your rightness" too, aren't you?
------------------------
"Obviously, to them, the "right to life" depends on whose side you are on. Don't you just love these religious types? Disagree with them and, suddenly, you have no right to life."

Same answer as above. Straw man - trying to make a vanishingly tiny number of extremists representative of the larger group.
-------------------------

"The god botherers also continually come out with all the emotive language and terms, like murder; and highlight their views with their own little horror videos and pictures."

Finally, a question:

The Roman Catholic Church opposes abortion. A large number of their arguments are not religious. Here's an example of just one.....(I'm paraphrasing)

"we have no objective, indisputable scientific way of judging at what point a fertilised egg becomes human, and that we must therefore grant it human status from the beginning."

Note please, no mumbo-jumbo just a reasoned point of view.

The question is this:

Is it wrong for the Catholic Church to have this point of view, if so, why?

#14

Maybe this video should be shown in schools as opposed to Al Gore's trashy video that has been proven in a court of law to be factually incorrect.

At 24 weeks, a clearly a fully formed baby with hair and all, is wrapped up like a fish supper in paper and then disguarded into a bin, or furnace. ]

Can't see the loving mother that aborts her baby wanting a funeral, can you?

146 & 147 :-) good one

Faye, I doubt if many of the Media 1 and Guga II actually watched it through, ............ but thats ok it is not compulsory unlike as you say the trash and lies of Al Gore which has been proven wrong

Media 1

You say that you are an atheist stating that you do not believe in God, you then claim that the reason you don't believe in God is as follows "I could not bow to a god who killed 2.7 million people, so I stopped."

You are contradicting yourself because if in your mind God does not exist then by your logic how could God be responsible for these deaths.

I'm thinking that the truth is you do believe in God but don't want to admit it, perhaps you have a cosmic authority problem, but you are not alone in this mindset.

New York University philosopher Thomas Nagel once said "Being strongly subject to this fear (of Religion) myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneaasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well informed people I know are religious believers. It isn't just that I don't believe in God and hope that I'm right in my belief. It's that I hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God, I dont want the universe to be like that."

This is the case with many atheists, it is not in such that they believe there is no God but more a defiant desire for there to be no God and a refusal to accept God as creator, they do not want to be open to the possibility that there is a God because this threatens the self centered existence of every one of us.

#122. And why would I even bother about Psalm 139 or any of that, when I do not believe in Christianity?? Or Islam? Or Judaism? I am a humanist and need no ethics or morality taught to me by mythological entities that have no reality outside of the pages of a book for stupid children?

Guga / Media1 ... shoulda known the superstitious nutters woulda dropped in on this one!

Contented little Mum....

You are a sane, reasonable person. This is a nice snapshot of the view of the majority of ordinary (none the worse for it) people in my opinion. I agree whole heartedly with what you say.

Stuart (sorry wullie)

I am a 23 year old lady from London. I have the beginnings of a successful career, I have a loving and supportive family, I have a solid degree, and I am financially sound. I am in a new, yet committed 6 month relationship.

Two weeks ago, we found out that I was 6 weeks pregnant. I am on the pill, but I had a stomach upset, and we were advised by the doctor that this could have caused the conception.

After much deliberation, we decided to have a termination. I am not proud of this, although I do not regret it because for me, (I had an amazing childhood) I know that I cannot offer what I feel crucial to being a parent. My partner and I are young in age, and our relationship. We do not live together, let alone own a home - and we both are in job sectors that require us to work every hour under the sun (this is not something I would want to give up).

The reason I am so determined to work so hard right now, is to be in a position to have a family. I have always, above everything, wanted to be a mother. However, after watching friends go through motherhood 'too soon' and the effects it has on their children, I know that I made the right decision, not just for me, but for the child.

It has been without doubt, the hardest time of my life. Parting with my baby was the hardest thing I have ever had to do. Please do spare a moment to consider how personal this issue is when you are making your comments. As much as it was my decision, and my responsibility - it is something I will never look back on and feel good about.

In this day and age, with the pressures of the modern world, you do have to be at a certain stage in your life to be a 'fit' parent. Those who have made the choice to have an abortion, are not in that position. I think it far better for a baby to be lost in an abortion, than for a child to be rejected, unloved or unsuitably cared for in later life.

153 Boy Wonder

I am a person with a religious point of view. I agree that it is likely that my morality is no better or worse than yours. Most religious people have this view. Why are you so hostile. Why am I a nutter?

Sincerely

Wullie

Media 1, from his ramblings, clearly believes in God, but refuses to worship God.

Surely that makes him Satan?

(Not the Gordon Brown one)

Mackenzie84

You are a sane and reasonable person. You should be comfortable with the decisions you have made.
Only an idiot would think any bad of you.

Don't worry

Stuart (sorry Wullie)

The Planet acording to ALL scientists of repute, has been in circulation for many millions of years; yet, we still get this religious nonsense during 2007 still being rammed down the throats of children. Why is children not allowed to decide for themselves when old enough, whether they wish too believe in this type of nonsense? It is no accident to find that the most Bigoted professsed Christian country on the planet has during the whole of the 20th and early part of the 21st century marauded around the planet butchering innocent men, women and children; wherever they wish to send their military might.
No wonder Churches and its preachers; are being made redundant througout the modern industrial world.

I believe myself to be a well educated,professional and intelligent woman who has, for the record, never had an abortion or been in a situation where it was even considered. I have however given life to two healthy, beautiful and intelligent children thus allowing myself some authority on birth but little in the field of birth termination. The latter state does not preclude any opinions I may hold on this topic, and I do have some. First, in this age of enlightenment it astound me to read the posts from so many of my gender who are still using a cult and a mythical figure to justify their own objections to a women's right to choose. When a woman decides to terminate a pregnancy she has made the right decision; if her decision is to give birth then that is the right choice for her to make. It really is a very simple equation and no god, devil, voodoo artist or other outside influence should be added. If the naysayers and do-gooders wish to lift their hearts from the sleeves of their coats and place them where they truly belongs then I support a couple of agencies and contribute to some others whom I believe are trying to make this world a better place for all, regardless of stripes, then come and join us but leave your god at home he/she threw in the towel thousands of years ago.

Anyone who cares so little for their own health, welfare and body that they use abortion as a means of birth control is not the type of person that a child should be entrusted to as parent for the next 20 years. Be grateful that they choose abortion . . . they aren't up to parenthood and they will never choose adoption.

In the midst of this Bush-induced dark age,
let's not waiver to those who
would place the individual choice
under the authority of police, priest, politician,
judge, and doctor.

It's an outrage that two (usually male) doctors still have to approve each abortion.

In Canada we use to say:
"Every child a wanted child
every mother a willing mother."

AMEN! NewmarketNDPer . . . as a PCer of the 50's and 60's, I chanted the same slogan on Parliament Hill, on the steps of the US Embassy, et al. So nice to know that great values survive the test of time.

#66

Charles

I hope and pray it will turn out for you.

#165, Inverie..I finished reading post #164 and was about to applaud the writer for her pragmatism and the development of reason which inflated me to a feeling of universal hope..and then I read your contribution which followed and I sank back into the depths of depression. Yours is the most ridiculous comment on the topic I have read, I suspect that in person you must display an asisnine personna which covers in smugness a total ignorance of all human feeling. Convention will not allow you to stir the contents in your cauldron or paint your face nd how you must weep, and pray for the flames of the past to rekindle the fire of the archaic. Please return to reread #164 and learn from a woman of wisdom.

You Christian haters just don't get it. We are NO better than you. The difference is we have been forgiven because we believe.

We can't say no Christian has ever had an abortion or murdered or whatever, but when you turn to God, He will forgive you if you are truly repentant. The ONLY sin He does not forgive is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which means not believing in God.

I know you think it's balderdash, and that is your right, but you should at least know that we do not think we are better because we aren't.

#168. MichScot, USA, Thankyou!

Just a couple of comments about God...there is something called justice. You may be assured it was not just serial killing.

Also, God is a serial creator.

#164 Annlass..you speak for all intelligent women.
#169 Florenz..your response to Inverie #165 and the idiotic comments he/she posted were certainly necessary although personally you could have saved your eloquence, I doubt if he/she can stretch a brain on more than two syllables.

#169 -- sorry I offended you. I was merely commenting on how long the battle for safe choices for women. I've been part of that cause for 50 years. I am in total agreement with #166. We live in close proximity and remember the same slogan that I've repeated as recently as two weeks ago at court, where as a child & family protection lawyer I see the results of unwanted pregnancies and unloved children every day..

#159 contented little mum,
nicely said.

#174.Inverie..you did not just offend #169 Florenz, your remarks offend all women. Your claim to advocacy for women's rights over fifty years have not taught you how to articulate your case. Trust that efforts made for clients are better prepared than the comments that you have posted.As a member of Doctors' without Borders I can claim, without sounding smug, to have seen it all.