It was, however, a race against time - and through it all, the diplomats and the politicians were acutely aware that Tehran has built a foreign policy on disregarding diplomatic niceties. So too has the UK,US and above all Israel. Welcome to modern diplomacy, the big lie
After a meeting described by officials as "brisk but polite", Beckett emerged to stress that she was "extremely disturbed" by events. Who gave the British forces permission to patrol Iranian waters? Mr Blair?
Only the current axis of evil, Bush. Blair, Cheney and Wolfson would be stupid enough to promote an Iranian war

1. williamx, Idiotville

"Only the current axis of evil, Bush. Blair, Cheney and Wolfson would be stupid enough to promote an Iranian war"

I hope you do not breed.

If either #1or #3 could read..they would know that Iran lies....a lot... I am sure that the men were in Iraqi waters...not Iranian waters....they needed to do this to ratchet up because of tougher sanctions that were voted against them.

Before I forget...it can also be because the US holds 5 Revolutionary Guards that were picked up in Iraq.
Time will tell.

Chocolate fire guards!!!!

If Tehran doesn't release those soldiers.. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes soon, diplomacy or no diplomacy. Things like this cannot be taken lightly. Freeze their financial accounts around the world, THEN get tough with them

Saudi Arabia should lower the price of oil. That will do more to get the release of the Brits than a wave of cruise missiles.

Face it, whatever blair does- he will be critisized.

Aye, c'mon, let's start WWIII. That'll shut up all those whinging, lefto, pinko, liberal, Islamo-facist neanderthals.

In fact, it'll probably shut up everyone.

Sheesh!

williamx - you have my sympathy - it must be gye lonely over there.

Lynne in 3: perhaps you should be the one to read more. here's what I read.

A US Navy spokesperson confirmed (per a Reuters report) that the sailors were in disputed territory when captured.

There was a treaty in 1975 that made the water Iranian. Due to Saddam Hussein (who came to power in 1979) rejecting the treaty the water became disputed.

So everyone knew that the Iranians considered it Iranian water.

Justice Seeker in 6:

I wouldn't want to be one of the sailors on either the US, UK or French ships within 400 miles of Iranian coastline, and I think there's a large number of such ships within that range. Because the Iranians have missiles that can sink any of the US/UK/French ships in that range. They could knock 2 aircraft carriers to bottom of ocean at any time if they choose. So I hope war doesn't break out. We could lose more than 10,000 people right away. and the response would then be nuclear. Perhaps that is the goal for all I know.

williamx:

It's Wolfowitz, not Wolfson. And Wolfowitz is no longer at Defense; he's been at the World Bank for over a year.

Otherwise, what commenter no. 2 said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6505836,0...

Lynne - you should read this article too. A top Iraqi general admitted that the sailors were not in Iraqi controlled waters.

here's 2 related articles.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/a...

http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070322/N...

All the Iranians want is to get the US to release the 5 Iranians they took from the diplomatic building in Iraq. If the US is not willing to release them, then this means the goal is definitely war. and war is a bad idea because it would involve great violence. Iran is a much larger country and richer than Iraq with a powerful military by comparison.

This would never have happened had we upgraded Trident of course. But the Iranians have no fears when they see a tattered set of oars propelling the current Trident fleet towards Iranian waters, rather more slowly than we would have liked, for the quick release of their rockets....

Well, I say quick, I'm afraid some of the batteries got a bit wet recently and they are drying out but as soon as they are dried Trident will be ready to launch its weapons of mass destruction...though I should also point out this will be dependent on 10 large rubber bands reaching the Clyde from the large rubber band factory in High Wycombe.

I trust I have made the case sufficiently for the renewal of Trident.

Now then, about this nonsense of Scottish Independence. It concerns plague, pestilence, locusts and passports at the border, not to mention a very real increased likely hood of earth being hit by an asteroid.

And it will all be the fault of Alexis Salmond (he’s from Russian stock you know) and the SNP, who of course, have been receiving secret funding from the Chinese Communist Party for decades...yawn yawn yawn....

Why would anyone think Iran is justified in holding hostages over possibly trespassing on what is not clearly recognized as Iranian teritory? Iran is using this to get some attention and I cant believe they realistically think the us will realease 5 irainians and make all those un restrictions go away. Dragonhead is right on, this needs to be met with stern and swift response...Willimax, the area may be thought to be Iranian waters but they should have given a warning and I am sure the situation would have never happened. I would have like to have seen the cornwall pursue the Iranians and defend the men. Iran is a state that calls the holocaust a hoax, preaches racial and religious supremacy, and is enriching uranium to further the power and idiocy of their regime buy making nuclear weapons...you would have to be a moron to think they are using it to establish a power plant. Anyway, wilmax you can go crawl back under your rock and I hope britan stands strong against the threat to the men who support it.

The Cobra team. One snake in the grass meeting with other snakes in the grass.

Glad to see all you US/UK stiff upper lip propagandists are up in the air over my comments. That's exactly why I wrote them Of course the truth hurts doesn't it. Your political boys screwed it up in spades and now what is the exit strategy? Run like hell?

Whether they water in Iraqi or Iranian waters is debatable. One thing damn sure - they waters they were in were not in British. These interfering warmongers deserve what they get. Stay out of places where you are not wanted and have no legal or moral right to be and these things won't happen to you.b

Cobra??? More like "hissy fit". Where's the SAS?? Isn't this a mission for them??? Why isn't Daniel Craig out there knocking some pans in already???

Of course, I'm anti-war and always try to see the bigger picture, but this is the kind of situation where we do NOT tolerate our citizens, military or otherwise, to be held (again) by a foreign power. Stop pussy-footing, get in there and bring our boys back!!!

Mossad wouldn't sit around too long, would they???

#20 You're right, Mossad wouldn't sit around too long. They would go in, guns blazing, killing innocent civilians, including women and children, as they went. That is their usual modus operandi.

I am sorry but this liberalism has gone to far.
It doesn't matter what has happened in Iraq or Afganistan in the past when our citizens are taken hostage it is an outrage and when our service personnel have been taken it is an act of war. Every warship in the gulf should bombard Tehran untill they release them. If they don't they should raise Tehran to the ground. No ocupying forces, no ground troups Just a severe and sincere lesson that Iran should wind it's neck in!! When the people of Iran see what their governmet has brought upon them they will soon rise up and replace the regime with a sensible one ( Which is what most Iranians would like). We can't just go round invading countries but we can defend ourselves and the servicemen who fight for us. Maggie done it(her only good move whilst in office) so I am sure that the current government can.

8. Dragonhead, China

"What should be of concern is the complete un-preparedness for conflict of the Armed Forces of the United Kingdom. They have been run down and deprived of essential equipment, being almost emasculated by the present government. That leaves the waffling inept crowd in Whitehall in the proverbial up to their necks. A well trained, well equipped and prepared Armed Forces is the ONE AND ONLY DETERENT to potential aggressors."

At last - you say something I agree with entirely!

The fact still remains that they should not have been in disputed waters, and Blair's government is to blame for this incident.

When british servicemen are captured by a foreign power the traitors on this forum should zip it.

24. Atlas

That's when the following people like to smile the most, when something goes wrong for the good side. They always silently cheer for the terrorist.

(bill, england), (Guga, Rockall), (BK, Cyberspace), (williamx, Idiotville), (Wally, Arizona), (Bikewoman), & (Djookers)

Sorry to poke my nose in on this mutual appreciation society but can I just say this..
If I had joined the armed forces I then would have to do as I am told.. Then I end up on a little boat in strange waters. I have no say, jusy doing my job, now I'm in the hands of Iranians. What the hell happened to me?

These are people for gods sake, be constructive, how do we help THEM!!

Guga, here is the link you were looking for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_enlargement

BrianWCI..................

You comments are much appreciated. Long awaited.

Harry.........................Luv yer humour...........spot on, could not agree more. (28)

"20 You're right, Mossad wouldn't sit around too long. They would go in, guns blazing, killing innocent civilians, including women and children, as they went."
.................................................
Hey Guga, what's your point? Moron. When the islamists figured out that hiding among women and children was a real effective fighting technique, you limp wristed nancyboys were doomed. Now you are so pure and righteous, you will not even summon the will to get the bloody job done. The UK deserves dhimmitude.

#5--AJ...????

#8--Dragonhead--"the incident has happened, the truth will out, eventually".....absolutely! & it will take patience on all sides.

"what is required now is decisive action, either diplomatically or militarily"....i agree!

Other than myself, some quotes from other Great thinkers in the past:

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --John Stuart Mill

......................................................
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.” —Marcus Tullius Cicero
........................................

Jean-François Revel: "Democratic civilization is the first in history to blame itself because another power is trying to destroy it."
...........................................
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." -- Winston Churchill
..........................................

“The surest way to prevent war is not to fear it.” —John Randolph
.............................................
...............................................

Wally, I am sure that those 15 were in IRAQI waters.
Why do you not think!!! Ahmadinejad cancels his trip to NY...(that was a losing cause, as who mind was he going to change?) Iran will be getting tougher sanctions.. can a try at blackmail be in the works? Can shifting the thoughts from Iranian nukes to the 15 be behind the this?
The 5 Revolutionary Guards they want back...could that be behind it?
The Iranian Gov't spends a lot of time lying to everyone including their own people..and YOU BELIEVE THEM!!!
Take your head out of sand.

Oh and Wally,, those are not diplomats...They have no diplomatic papers, and they were supplying funding and arms against the US..

Good morning Sandy...It's been a while..

Harry A.. You have their number..you know who and what they are!!! Unfortunately they don't change..mindsets or opinions!!

You would have thought that these are British sailors and marines they would have stood behind them...and believed them..but, alas, they still side with the terrorists.

williamx, you have my pity.
brainwashed and moronic is surely burdensome.
pray tell, who the heck is Wolfson?

#14 Wally.....

The Iraqi general did not admit the sailors were not in Iraqi waters. He said Iraqi fishermen reported the British boats were in waters not under Iraqi control.

Big difference.

26. Harry A

Spot on!

I vote for Djookers as being the biggest cheer leader for terrorist, Wally for being the biggest conspiracy theorist, and Guga for being the most negative.

What would Julius Caesar do? I believe he would say, "Persian Navy?" What Persian Navy? Oh, you mean the one at the bottom of the Arabian Gulf!" And, "Persian Air Force?" Can't find enough pieces left to call it an air force." Also, "What's with these modern Gauls, anyway?"

33. Lynne, USA (or is it inylorac)

Two points of information.

1. The Royal Navy personnel were in disputed waters, outside Iraq.

2. Ahmadinejad cancelled his trip because the USa would not give visas to his flight crew.

Fascinating.....we quibble and natter while the enemy grows bolder and bolder. While you legal types argue over how many jihadists can fit on the head of a suitcase nuke, the ragheads contempt for your cowardice and feebleness is justified.

The disdain and lack of respect Iran has for British might is well earned.

Under a neutered Blair and a pacifist EU all he will find in Cobra is a garden snake. My advice.

... seize the dragon ... face life.

Taking English soldiers must have consequences or another island nation will disappear and not just their empire!

Let's apply a bit of common sense here. Iran is on the ropes internationally. Even the Russians and Chinese are pulling away from them, so Bush/Blair would have no interest right now in starting an incident. The Iranian government, on the other hand, is under seige internationally and domestically. Discontent with Ahmadenijad is growing by the day. An incident like this deflects a lot of criticism over getting more sanctions slapped on them. You keep the faithful hard-liners on your side, and that's all that matters in Iran, because they control all the levers of power. They're playing offense to keep from having to play defense.

So, how do you solve this crisis? You freeze all the PERSONAL accounts of all the regime thugs they've got stashed away around the world, plus many of their official accounts. If that doesn't work, you start confiscating offshore oil rigs, until you get your guys back. Iran is a very fragile government, hated by most of their own people, and very much afraid of a regime collapse. They'll blink first, if Blair will stare them down.

Why were Brits snatched and not US? Because the Brits are so easy to snatch.

Lynne : how can you be sure? were you there?
An Iraki marine said the britons weren't in iraki waters, so where were they? in british waters ??? hehe
Do you know you pay 1600 usd a year in military expenditures (from your pocket, not mine)? Do you know where your money goes? To Dick and Halliburton... He is saying thank you Lynne for helping me to escape the IRS and move my HQ to Dubai, which is 40% owned by iranians.... See your gov ***** big time and you pay for it... Usually people pay to ***** not to get ***** but i dont know.... we are all different... Your gov doesn't give a damn about you.... and they make good money because they are naive people like you who cant make the difference between pakistan and turkey...
meanwhile all the money reinjected by mr cheney into dubai helps iranian locals to have a more prosperous bank account

>>
So, how do you solve this crisis? You freeze all the PERSONAL accounts of all the regime thugs they've got stashed away around the world, plus many of their official accounts. If that doesn't work, you start confiscating offshore oil rigs, until you get your guys back. Iran is a very fragile government, hated by most of their own people, and very much afraid of a regime collapse. They'll blink first, if Blair will stare them down.

You think too conventional, exactly like when israel started attacked lebanon. the unconvential parameters took over.

It is funny people saying send the SAS. My cousin in the delta f / i really dont see what they could do over there.... they would get properly spanked / my advice is act quickly / if u think irak is warm try iran
half of the country is 50 C + 3 months a year
they will all end up drinking their own pee if sent over there

good luck

Oh KOBRA,

Where do I start? Haliburton moved it's OPERATIONAL HEADQUARTERS to Dubai. Shorter commute for the employees. The HQ is still in Houston.

So Haliburton will still pay IRS taxes.

Get your facts straight.

Byron,
Where do you think profits will be taken out? In Houston or tax free dubai ???
The will probably pay 100 usd taxes in houston to make you happy :)

Caught this story on the net. Wow! Quite a reaction. I believe the English will do the right thing, which is to retrieve their troops without making concessions. Here's a quote from the English of a bygone time, "Once you pay the Danegeld, you never get rid of the Dane."

We Americans are immensely grateful to the U.K., whose fearsome sons stand with us in the sand. God bless your troops in harm's way in Iran and may He keep them safe, our prayers for their families.

For all you who wrote in to blame your own country, the USA, or Israel (how did you manage to get Israel into this discussion?) you censure the very men who risk their lives so that you can shoot off your mouths with impunity. If the people you excoriate allowed the Iranians to have their way, they would soon be at your throats in your own country. And, who would be the first spineless jellyfish to go crying to their mommies? Care to guess?

KORBA,

It's none of my business what Haliburton does with it's profits. Unlike you, I am not envious of other people's success.

The IRS states clearly that the country where the HQ is placed is the determining factor of how much taxes that tax payer pays.

Personally, I love Haliburton's success and wish them all the luck in the world beating the IRS out of every dollar they can.

I might be wrong, but you positively reek of eurojealousy. In case you don't know what it means I can help.

It is the last stages of a dying and impotent Europe wherein the various collectivists of that crumbling culture look at America and hate her.

Face the truth: Eurabia is your future. Even Iceland will not be spared dihimmitude.

Reading PUblic in 25:

for better or worse I have become extremely knowledgeable of many things related to current & world events the last 10 years. and it is the opposite of what you say. I am very knowledgeable and you are by comparison ignorant. I warn you - the mainstream media especially tv will deceive you.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a...

There have been many articles written indicating that there are actually 3 types of missiles or torpedoes that the Russians have made that the US navy really cannot defend against. The AEGIS system does not see them. They've developed several extremely intelligent strategies for dealing with US Navy with missiles or torpedoes.

The navy is well aware of this, but you are not. Their strategy is to stay out of range until they destroy the source of the missiles. This is their only defense. and as the source of the missiles can be on the land and concealed it is a very difficult thing for the US, UK & French navies to have their ships so close to Iranian coastline.

I tell you that all of the ships the US, UK & France have within the 400 mile range can be sunk in just a half hour's time. whenever the Iranians want.

the game we are playing is truly very dangerous. The Russians have far more nuclear weapons than the Americans have. We cannot rely on all of our defense systems. We do not know what the Russians have in their pockets exactly.

A nuclear exchange would be very dicey and should be avoided.

We Americans should never have gotten involved in foreign entanglements.

nations rise & nations fall because god causes it to be so. The arrogance and the pride of the people wells up in their hearts and causes them to think that they are the masters of this earth. But they are not the masters of this e

Time for steady escalation of pressure, diplomatic request for release ( been done). Calls for release from other eu countries (been done).

Stage 2 naval and air blockade of iran, (ground supply lines too if possible, ie nothing in and nothing out.

Most countries are only a couple of weeks away from political collapse once the food warehouses empty.

No need for the uk to actually take military action, just shut everything down in relation to imports exports, within a month the Iranians will either rebel against their leaders or capitulate and give our people back.

One harrier carrier a few frigates and destroyers and a couple of subs should be able to do the job.

No need to get in close and risk the missiles just sit a couple of hundred miles out and interdict everything incoming and outgoing

51# wally

you are wrong about the 400 mile sinking point, within range yes, hit or sinking, I don't think so. A little research on naval defensive systems might be in order.

CaptAmerican in 44:

You asked 'Why were Brits snatched and not US? Because the Brits are so easy to snatch.'

No I'll tell you why. Because the Brits were put out as bait to bring the UK along in the war.

Bill England....The US did not refuse them visas and I love that you chose to believe the very deceptive iranian govt banter about that. Iran wants to find conflict in any event to fuel their propaganda which some of you so readily accept and then critisize all others for not being treasonist as yourself. Move to Iran and join the good fight with your fellow patriots.
KOBRA haliburton is still paying taxes I assure you, I find it very cute how you cheer for a regime that has no love or respect with the lfestyle and rights you enjoy, you dont deserve freedom. No goverment or body of people are perfect but I belive the US and Britan are countries that are worth fighting for and standing up for (since I like my culture and dont plan on stabing my people in the back). Iran is surley not trying to promote world peace, so before you cast stones about how horrible the us and britan are take a long look at the people you are defending. Oh and let me know how you enjoy the weather over there.

#32--Byron Massey--these quotes are much needed on this day, at this time & should be read by all. thank you!
where are such men of vision & strength today? why must our leaders cow-tow to the despicable appeasers of our enemy?

Wally get your head out of your a$%. Everything is a global conspiracy isnt it. I am sure these troops comander sent his men out on those boats to further the conflict on Iran, you know, since Iran is such a teddybear of a state...so peace loving and openminded. I am ashamed you are a US citizen.

James in 57:

This may come as a surprise to you, but the Cornwall and other modern ships are equipped with GPS devices. They knew that they were sending the small boat into disputed territory. And they knew that in 2004 the Iranians picked up UK sailors in that disputed territory.

I can imagine the commander of the Cornwall ordering those men to the boat and on their mission knowing full well they'd likely be taken like this and knowing full well that it might not end well for them. He kept silent about this and watched them go. and at some time he'll pour a stiff drink over it.

The Iranians are a fine group of people. They should be our friends.

Oh dearie me, here we go again: "Kill 'em", "Bomb them", "they want your daughters!" brigade again.

Let's think about it:

Were they illegally 'kidnapped'? Redundant question as the US has been kidnapping folk all over the place.

Will they be tortured? Redundant question: US and Abu Graib

Are they being held legally? Redundant question: US rendition and Guantanamo Bay.

Note to parents, lovers and children of these poor sods: My sympathy to you; this is what happens when your government fails to listen to the people and makes terrorist alliances with the USA elites. The war is illegal, no mandate from anyone.

To the red neck warmongers above: Idiot Boy once said, "You are either for us or against us." Trust me; the VAST majority of the world's people are against you. If the US/'uk/Israel engage with Iran it will not only be the fundamentalist Muslims (of whom there are very few, by the way) it will be folk like me, white euro atheist, that will rise against this rabid dog marauding the Earth. It will signal the final nail in the coffin of the USA. It's a sick animal on the prowl for oil and wealth killing all in its path. We will retaliate, we the masses of the world. I say to you USA citizens; get this dog under control or we will do it for you. What it does in your own garden is of no concern to civilised world but when it's running about in the community, it's a menace to peace. The blowback will come from 'normal' folk and will be either direct violent action or, preferably in my opinion, some serious anti-US product lobbying: don't buy US products (hey, switch to LINUX!), burn the flag when you can, simply promote the boycott of all things US.

Put the dog on the leash USA or suffer the consequences. You think the Cubans are your enemy? The Communists? The Drug Runners (Nice boat, Idiot Boy's dad's got huh?) ? The Muslims? Oh no my little paranoid deluded red neck

Byron,
I own shares in halliburton. I get dividends when they make profits. I'm glad people like you pay taxes. It helps the dividends and by extension my sexy profits. My grandma is a US citizen by the way.
Im not really sure of what i should be jealous of here and I dont recall hating the american culture. I think it is great. I can eat spicy beef jerky until i start s******* cows:) Im a hardcore new jersey devils fan and if i think of someone i should worship it is mr ronald mcdonald, cause frankly speaking he did more for me that muhamad jesus and budda combined...
last but not least / u can have your hq in the us but but no one can control the profits made in your dubai division, but what the heck i hope they make good cash this year by offering more services to iran as they are already doing...

Countries Iran had invaded: 0

Countries Peace Loving USA has invaded: How many now? How many more before you wake up?

http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa_boycott.html

http://www.vicpeace.ca/centre/campaign/boycotus.htm

Wally, thank you I am quite aware of gps. I dont think they were sent as bait...maybe i am an optimist . Iranians are probably ok but the govt and hardliners are a dangerous bunch and i dont trust them...just my opinion. finnking, wow talk about hatemongering, I think what you really want to say is "death to US, death to UK, down with the west " or something like that. Oh and the cubans tried to set up nucs right outside our door that is why we have that whole embargo thing going on...Anyway all us here in the US get together every tuesday to talk about how we can dominate the world and cause the end of times...Your friendly American pig dog ; )

63. James 79, maryland us

"Oh and the cubans tried to set up nucs right outside our door that is why we have that whole embargo thing going "

You believe that? Did you know that the emargo was in place prior to the "Missile Crisis"? Are you aware that the USA had, prior to the cridis, set up nukes in Turkey pointed at Moscow?

Hatemongering? Oh no, my polluted wee yank friend, not at all. If there's an violent idiot in the pub ruining a good night for everyone, is it hatemongering to get the idiot to calm down or go home? No. Rational civilised human behaviour.

Time to start playing hard ball with these despotic Middle East "leaders".
If Iran is allowed to get the bomb , the whole Middle East and Europe will be held to ransom. The world cannot tolerate another raving loony state spreading its cancer. We should strike hard ,and clean the rotten mess once and for all. Future generations deserve it. Inaction is tantamount appeasment .

James 79 in 63.

that is very funny when you end "Your friendly American pig dog".

but believe it or not there are some American christian leaders who do wish to instigate war partly in order to bring on the end of times. Reverend Ted Haggard (the gay guy) of Colorado and Pastor John Hagee of Texas are 2 who've been given a lot of publicity in the media who do in fact call for pre-emptive war against Iran. Hagee in particular says we should nuke Iran and wipe them out. and for no provocation whatsoever except that Hagee thinks they're dangerous.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/barnwell/barnwell73.html

The Iranians have not invaded anyone for hundreds of years. Yet they have borders with Iraq & Afghanistan who both were invaded & subjugated by the US. The Iranians were the victims of US aggression in the 1950's when the CIA installed the Shah of Iran as their leader who was very much a tyrant to them. The Iranians were the victims of US agression in 1980 when the US asked Saddam Hussein to invade Iran and paid him to do so. 600,000 Iranians died from this. The Iranians were victims of US aggression when the US shot down the jet-liner some years ago kiling hundreds of civilians.

Nobody who follows the words of the New Testament can possibly think that this US aggression is a good thing. And could not possibly advocate war with Iran at this time. People like Haggard and Hagee are members of the fallen-away faith that jesus said would be here before he returned.

James 79 - I do know what side I am on. We do not control the things that happen to our nation. But it is best to look at things clearly, not with pride delusion and deception in our way.

Finking,

If there's a violent idiot in the pub, then all the patrons need to stand together and take care of him. This we would like to do but it's going to take longer than it should because there are people in the pub who are on the side of the barbarians, people like you.

You're not getting the picture, peace isn't the issue. Freedom and liberty are, and they are worth fighting for. Perhaps fifty years of Finland kissing the Russian's rear ends have given you the idea that the rest of the world should play that game.

That's not going to happen. You're used to being serfs, my wee Reindeerhead, we're not and we're not ever going to be. Go play in the ice.

55. James 79, maryland us

Sorry, the US did not issue visas:
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_head...

"No goverment or body of people are perfect but I belive the US and Britan are countries that are worth fighting for and standing up for (since I like my culture and dont plan on stabing my people in the back)."

Absolutely. We have been betrayed by the Bush/Blair gangsters and it is they who are stabbing us in the back.

#61 Finnking:

Good morning /good evening: which ever is applicable. I have been actively boycotting American products and services for many years. The only thing I won't go without is music, but as most of my musical taste lies with indie musicians who all dislike Goergie the Chimp more than I do I can justify those purchases.
While my thoughts go to the families of those lads who were simply given the mission they should all wander down to #10 and ask the Ponce of Darkness what he's playing at by using their sons etc as the pretext for the next war.

57Nomad in 67:

Finland is a small country compared to Russia who it has a long border with. Russia has been very much an expansionary country for centuries. it has succeeded in dominating & controlling almost all the nations it borders. But Finland is not one it has done that to. In WW2 Finnish soldiers successfully kept the Russians out.

Finland today has a great domestic economy, better than the US.

California is a place that was very prosperous and is headed downhill fast.

Freedom & Liberty are nice and we should credit god for them. The Iranians do not threaten these things and fighting them for it is foolish.

#68, Bill,

Spoken like a true disciple of your illustrious former PM, Neville Chamberlain. Look, we are practical people and don't waste our knives putting them in backs of those who are already without spines.

#69,

Actively boycotting? Uh, that's real interesting. You see a boycott is the cessation of an activity, actively boycotting is an oxymoron. Now, considering the source....... Maybe the term auckymoron would be more accurate.

And as for you, Wally, go play with your dollies. The grown men will deal the problem. Don't let us find you getting in the way.

A quote from Peter Ustinov "Terrorism is war by the poor, war is terrorism by the rich"

#72

Nice quote, here's another,

"From the luxury of safety pacifists proclaim their doctrine, behind the guns of the American fleet."

George Orwell

72. Penquinboy, Auckland

God one!

Wally...ever the conspiracist... Do you honestly think the Brits would go along being sent as bait? YOU had better take the meds, get some sunlight...you need it!!!

The rush for the black crude is on...send in the troops first, then Haliburton. A soldier is paid a mere pittance, the contractor has a licence to steal. Send in the carriers so Hal feels safe and let him write off the move to Dubai on taxes. Fill up your gas tank, the price is about to spike.

Wally,

The Finns lost the war to the Russians and they were a vassal state of the Soviet Union for half a century until Ron, Margaret, Lech, and Karol put them away for good. The Finns owe their present freedom to the US.

Don't you know that the present president of Iran has threatened the United States with extermination? He is an unstable religious fanatic. He is a big fan of Adolph Hitler. When the Nazis reoccupied the Rhineland, contrary to treaty of Versailles, he was unopposed. Later he said, "if so much as a single French policeman would have opposed us, we would have withdrawn."

It is true that liberty and freedom come from God, but they are paid for on earth by men who have the courage to fight for them. You lack that, but men who do have it will pay for the cowardly freeloaders.
Saying you are a man of peace doesn't make you one. To the contrary you are sowing the seeds of a catastrophe.

Obviously, you haven't been to California lately, if ever. It is the most prosperous of states and has an economy that dwarfs the entire country of your beloved Finland.

Seen 300? Did you like it?

57Nomad in 77:

at least we have some understanding of each other as we are country-men.

But I never said I was 'man of peace', though I will speak against the wars easily.

I haven't seen that movie 300 and won't. I just don't have a need for it. I liked Apocalypto - that was a serious movie with a purpose. But 300 is homo-erotic comic book that glorifies violence. I don't like those kinds of movies.

California has been awesomely prosperous in the past. But California is in big decline. and I've only been there very briefly.

Spanish is becoming the dominant language where I live, and I live in Phoenix area.

as a loyal American I can't support the people that rule our country. I see them as our enemy. They've done so much harm to our country.

Look how they've lured you into liking war. and nobody but a fool likes war.

I do not think that president of Iran is such a bad guy. I read his 2 letters, one a letter to president, one a letter to Americans. He seemed reasonable.

#75--Lynne-- www.nydailynews.com

top left story of the "suicide mom" & her daughter...
they really are monsters!!!

Hi Wally,

You don't like what you haven't seen? You think California is in "a big decline" but can't cite a single piece of evidence to support your claim? You think the President of the United States is a bad guy and the man who promised to exterminate us in a reasonable man?

Then, and most incredibly, you say that I've been lured into liking war. I'm a veteran, Wally, I hate war. The President hates war, all the soldiers who are fighting hate war and their families and loved ones hate it most. You are a thoroughly deluded individual. You, Wally, are the pro-war party in this discussion. People like you brought about World War II by the same self-congratulatory preening. Don't you understand that it doesn't make a bit of difference what you think. It's how you act. The way that you and those like you are acting is encouraging the Iranian maniac. Quit patting yourself on the back, you haven't done one single thing to deserve it. To the contrary you are giving hope to our enemies and making war much more likely. I pray that experience will not be your teacher, but I fear that it will.

Sandy... I just read this..This is a sick society.. children can't be children, and all they have to look forward to is death..

This is why there will be no peace in Palestine...they LOVE DEATH more than their children, and they want death for their children. To have peace, you have to love LIFE.

Wally, Ahmadinejad seems like a reasonable guy!!!!! He can;t answer a question and look you straight in the eye...he squints, hoping that you can't see he is lying..

Reasonable!!! He wants to usher in Armaggedan himself!!!

Evidently, saying that America should be destroyed makes him reasonable to the likes of you!!!

The man is a menace to his countrymen/women and everyone else. Diplomacy and shame should win the day. Thank goodness some of the folks who've made comments here aren't in government with their "shoot from the hip" comments.

#79 sandy #81 Lynne

really, read the damned thing before you conclude anything. I've used Capitals to highlight.

"The next wave of Palestinian suicide bombers COULD include little girls with ribbons in their hair."

That's COULD, not WILL or DOES.

"a shocking new music video that DEPICTS little Duha Riyashi serenading her mommy"

That's DEPICTS, not ACTUALLY SHOWS, she was to young when her mother died to be able to have done in this video what they propose.

"In the dramatized music video, an ACTRESS playing Duha sings as her mother dons her explosives."

That's an ACTRESS playing Duha

The woman killed herself 3 years ago, and her daughter is now 4. So when the woman died her daughter was 1.

The caption under the photograph states

"Reem Saleh Al-Riyashi, the first woman suicide bomber from Hamas, is shown with daughter, Duha. Al-Riyashi blew herself up on January 14, 2004."

Does the child in the picture look like she is only 1 year old....Please

I just dont believe a sane human being can take such obvious propaganda seriously. If you 2 do, you have lost any credibility.

Bill in 68, Iran says we did not issue visas and the US says we did (CHECK OUT CNN.COM) so I guess it comes down to who do we belive. You can make points how the US has lied and I can say how Iran has lied and denied things like the holocaust...I believe the US.

Wally in 66, yes there are americans who want to nuke Iran and there are americans who think that they are the second coming of Jesus and this is because they are crazy...I think most people ignore extremist crazies but they have a freedom to express the crazy banter they believe in. You know that some people in Iran would like to kill all of us americans and same thing, they are nut jobs and it just so happens the president is a little nutty himself.

Here is a question for all who say we have no right in the foriegn arena. If you know that there is mass ethnic cleansing going on in another country do we have a responsability to help? Now, I dont think war in Iran is a good idea and want to avoid it but They need to return the men and stop with the uranium. Here is what I think about Iran....The Iranian pres wants to destroy Israel and denies the holocaust and he is developing nucs in what I believe to be an attempt to destroy Israel and do some major spring ethnic cleansing...If that happens do we sit and turn a blind eye? We were isolationists before WWII and if we were to stand behind the brits from the begining alot less people would have died....Unless you think Hitler got a bad rap.

Bill and Wally, Iran is worth avoiding in conflict but Ahdamijad (or however you spell his name) is a racist. I know you are unhappy with some of our local politics but this guy is dangerous and not to be trusted I would like to keep him harmless and contained in his country.

Comon guys you talk of being open minded and then grasp a one sided perspective, so dont tell me you are so much more enlightend then us "ignorant rednecks" (that one is for finnking).

The comment about bei

#84 Then obviously you have missed the fact that children are being used as martyrs..If you cannot take this seriously, then you need serious meds.

James #85, I wouldn't sweat anything that finnking says. BTW do you know what Finland leads the western world in. It has the highest suicide rate. Great place to live.

Listen, all of you. It doesn't matter what any of us want. NO sane person wants war and certainly not a nuclear way. That doesn't make a bit of difference. What matters in the intentions of the parties involved. The current Iranian regime intends to annihilate us. The are religious fanatics. Those of you who don't know about their apocalyptic world view should find out. They believe that the world is destined to be totally Muslim and that that day will be brought about by a cataclysmic confrontation with the infidels. They are building their nukes for that very purpose. There isn't a damn thing we can do to change those intentions. There is no making nice with those who intend to destroy you. They don't have those intentions because of anything we have done. They have them because of what we haven't done, which is to convert to Islam, the Shi'a brand, thank you very much.

Knowing that, in order to avoid a war on our own shores for our very survival, we must act in a way that will dissuade them from trying to achieve what they intend. There is only one way to do that and that is to convince them that we are willing and able to defend ourselves by whatever means is necessary. If, by convincing them that we intend to nuke them, then we need to act like we will, if it takes convincing them that we will invade and hang them like Saddam then that's what we have to do.

Here's what won't work. Acting like a bunch of sensitive sallys. They have contempt for all infidels but they respect believable force. Good grief, where did some of you men grow up? These are lessons you're supposed to learn on the school yard. Elephants are vegetarians, why then aren't they some predator's favorite meal? It's because they can and will stomp you flat if they sense a threat. Consequen

James 79 in 85:

I appreciate your comments, quite humorous as well.

I don't like the 'redneck' characterization myself either. and I don't use it. I think that people who have red necks due to working outside in the sun are doing good noble work and I like them better than some rich fellow in an office that doesn't sweat for a living. and that's where the pejorative term 'redneck' came from.

I don't support boycott of American goods & services. At some point when the real trouble starts I'll be standing with the people called 'rednecks' even though I disagree with their thinking. Because I am American. You see James I actually do believe that our nation will face severe military challenges over this foreign policy and that we'll see a backlash that will damage us severely.

Regarding Adimijad or whatever his name is - he does have an anti-American streak. Many people around the world do. Look at it from his point of view. When he was young they had the Shah ruling his country who was a tyrant similar to saddam. His secret police arrested & killed a lot of people. The Shah was installed with CIA help, the elected leader killed. That is why he has anti-American streak. I read the 2 letters he wrote 1 to americans and other to the president. He seemed very reasonable. He never said he was going to destroy Israel or wipe Israel out. He said he looks forward to the day when the regime ruling Israel is no longer. He and lots of other people think that because of the oppression that Israel doles out to Palestine.

Did you know the Israelis killed an American named Rachel Corrie in 2003? Look at this link

http://www.peacewithrealism.org/corrie.htm

see the 'before' and 'after' pictures. See that the bulldozer operator saw her in the before picture. Israeli soldiers were on the scene. They could've picked her up and moved her. Th

Wally's at it again - keep it up Wally; you're better than watching the Saturday morning cartoons. Wouldn't it be nore efficient for you to get your own blog instead of trying to swamp this site with your silliness?

#86 Lynne

If someone writes an article with a headline that claims something, then the body of the article has 3 seperate pieces of falsehood and innuendo in it as a way of backing up the claim, together with a patently false photograph which they claim as real, I am highly unlikely to believe any part of the article.
Thankfully I am not a neurotic insecure person who believes every scare story someone tells me, as a result I dont need meds.........

77. 57Nomad, california

Man, you really are dim.

"The Finns lost the war to the Russians and they were a vassal state of the Soviet Union for half a century until Ron, Margaret, Lech, and Karol put them away for good. The Finns owe their present freedom to the US. "

There is no much wrong with that that it's impossible to find a suitable starting point. The fact that even one US citizen could actually believe such tosh is testimony to indoctrination system over there.

"The Finns owe their freedom to the US" -- I'm going to keep that as a classic example of red neck thinking/education. It's a peach!

85. James 79, maryland us

Aha?

"Finnking you say burn american flags and WE ARE dogs to be leashed " (my caps) -- er, no. But an interesting interpretation of what I actually wrote.

"I think you are single minded idiot without any character or depth to realise you are a hatefull person," - - yeah? I'm pretty sure I wrote about peace and non-violent methods. Again, an interesting interpretation. And this from a man(?) who thinks Iran and Cuba are threats to the USA!

"I have to go now and buy a finnland flag and burn it for finnking (im not serious I am sure finnland is quite nice)"---burn away, have fun. BTW: It's Finland, not Finnland. But, hey, who cares?

Sometimes an interpretation tells you more about the interpretor than the interpreted.

FinnKing in 91:

I don't know how 57 Nomad got the idea that Finland was a vassal state. He obviously doesn't know his history. That was the first time I ever heard that.

Most unfortunately, for a large portion of the population in America standards like right and wrong or truth and falseness don't even matter to them. Things like money and power mean an awful lot to people. and so does political correctness. Proper sentiments mean a lot. and a lot of people know they can't stop the powers that rule, so they've given up.

America really is going down the drain. although slowly and spectacularly.

I think it was time for Wally to get dressed for school. Hurry, the short bus is rounding the corner. This situation is the result of trying to prosecute a 'civilized' war. If you get in a fight, it should be reluctantly. But if you must, you better beat the other so badly that no one ever wants to fight you again. Unfortunately, neither condition was met in Iraq, (Reluctance or total victory) and now we'll be fighting until we get it right. Sad but true. Many innocent people will have to die until the fight is taken out of one side. I'm hoping it's theirs.

Nice work Finking,

This time you got it half right. One of us is dim, but it's not me. The fins fought well against the russians for one winter, then they were overpowered and capitulated. Until the USSR collapsed, Finland sang whatever song the Russians played and there's no denying it. The only reason that you're still not attached to the soviet umbilical cord is that the USSR isn't around any more. The reason that the USSR isn't around any more is because the USA put them out of business. You're welcome. As your pal Lenin was fond of saying, "facts are stubborn things."

News flash, Wally, just because you haven't heard of something doesn't mean it isn't so.

We didn't start the war the moslem's did. They attacked us, remember. This began with the Wahabi sect in Saudi Arabia (Sunni) and Khomeini's group in Iran (Shi'ite). It doesn't make a bit of difference whether we want war or not, they do. So, we either fight or they destroy us. It's not going to be clean and it's not going to be easy, but that's the way it is so get some damn spine.

96. 57Nomad,

Get real.

You seem to completely ignore Sweden in your understanding of Finnish history. You quote Lennin without even a nod to the events of Dec 6 1917. You discuss post continuation war Finland without a mention of Karelia.

To say the Finland was a "vassal state" or that "Finland sang whatever song the Russians played and there's no denying it." simply demonstartes your ignorance of world events.

Now, I can understand you not knowing much about Finnish history, other that what you grab from Wiki. It's just one small area of the big wide world. However, if you have that much wrong information about Finland, does that not encourage you to seriously question other perceptions you have?

"Facts are chils that winnea ding" as my ma would say, in full agreement with Vlad on the subject.

Let's look: "from your 77: "Don't you know that the present president of Iran has threatened the United States with extermination?"

Question: Where on Earth did you get that from? Show me what convinced you that the man said that.

from 77: "He is a big fan of Adolph Hitler"

Question: Where on Earth did you get that from? Show me what convinced you that the man said that.

from 77: Hotler said, "if so much as a single French policeman would have opposed us, we would have withdrawn."

Question: Where on Earth did you get that from? Show me what convinced you that the man said that.

Now, if you were devoid of information regarding Finland, that's okay. Not many know about the place. But Iran and 30's Germany? Please answer the questions as rationaly as you can.

ooppsss... spelling! Cheils and Lenin, sorry.

Finking,

Sweden has nothing to do with anything in this discussion. Return to planet earth.

Having read your ramblings I now seriously doubt that your have ever set foot in Finland. Please explain the significance of "The Mannerheim Line."

This is direct quote from A'jad at a conference in Tehran, October 7, 2005.

"Once, his eminency Imam [Ruhollah] Khomeini - leader of the 1979 Islamic revolution], stated that the illegal regime of the Pahlavis must go, and it happened. Then he said the Soviet empire would disappear, and it happened. He also said that this evil man Saddam [Hussein] must be punished, and we see that he is under trial in his country. His eminency also said that the occupation regime of Qods [Jerusalem, or Israel] must be wiped off from the map of the world, and with the help of the Almighty, we shall soon experience a world without America and Zionism, notwithstanding those who doubt."

So, Finking, what have you got to say about that?

I read about a rabbi from Germany who attended the 'holocaust' conference in Iran. and I read about a rabbi from Israel also who attended. Both these jewish rabbis believe the holocaust propaganda is much overblown. Winston Churchil's history book of 1948 said that less than 100,000 jews were killed by the NAZIs in these camps. Back in the late 1940's there was a committee of the United Nations peg the jewish death toll at a very low number also. It was a Soviet communist leader who specialized in propaganda that came up with the 6 million number sometime in 1950's. and after that anyone who didn't go along with the 6 million number was said to be a bad person.

I guess 57 Nomad will say now we should bomb Germany and bomb Israel because those jewish rabbis live there who according to 57 Nomad are liars I guess and thus need to be nuked.

The people who say we should bomb Iran because they hosted an academic conference where intellectuals and historians from all over the world attended discussing and sharing much are no different from NAZI book-burners themselves.

57Nomad in 99:

what difference does it make if somebody in Iran said something? I've heard christian leaders in the US say that America will be punished for its sins too. Should we bomb them? and let's not forget Pastor John Hagee of Texas has called for pre-emptive nuclear war against Iran. There have been many public figures in the US call for mass murder against muslims both arab and iranian.

this doesn't mean we listen to such people or take them seriously.

57 Nomad I've specifically read about Finland in an account written in National Review many years ago that they defended themselves against the Soviet Union during ww2 successfully and were independent. You'll tell me that just because I've read it doesn't make it true. but you're the only person in the whole world with your view of history on Finland. But if other people have a different view of the 'holocaust' in Germany (like Winston Churchil), then you'll say they should be killed.

Does the term NAZI mean anything to you Nomad?

Does the term 'nut' mean anything?

Wally,

You should be careful about who you call a nazi. Remember, it is an acronym for "the national socialist workers party of germany." Most likely that would more closely approximate your political inclinations than mine. Also you fling this insult from the safety of distance. I can assure you, Betty Lou, that you would never say that to my face. Coward!

Wally,

You're just a short little drive from where I live in southern California. Would you like me to pay you a visit so that we can discuss this in person?

Finnking Inever said that they were a present threat to the US( I like cuban cohibas!!), so before accusing me of misinterpretation maybe you should look into that. I think Iran is best contained in the region that they are in and I dont want to have any thing to do with them....Also peace man, I am not saying lets go in guns blazing, All I said was a question of if (that was an if) Iran was to attempt to wipe out israel should we do something? Or, I know, there are so many left over jews that werent killed in the holocaust that we can afford to lose some of em. The holocaust was Jews, blacks, and gypsies that were MURDERED on a mass scale and whether it was a million or 100,000 it is still apauling. Also no spell check so Dont tell me how I spelled Finlnad wrong because you are right I dont care...I be one of them ignerant mericans rednecks, YEEEHAA. I just wanted to send you a little of what was in your message of reffering to ameria as a dog and talk of burninng my flag...Oh and I am a man and if you burn a flag in front of me you will eat it. Oh and to your earlier reply that you talked about peace and non violent meathods...I think you wrote that we are "sick animal on the prowl" and "The blowback will come from 'normal' folk and will be either direct violent action or" your cuddly american boycott. You are right you are not violent and or Hatefull.
Peace Finny

99. 57Nomad, california

So predictable.

You could have thought about it and then posted, "Okay, sorry, sometimes I get wound up and spout off." We all do from time to time. No shame in that.

Or you could do what you just did! Well done. I guessed correctly.

a) It was you that brought the subject of Finland up
b) It was you that said that for the past 50 years (illogically from the end of WWII, in your eyes) Finland had been a "vassal state" and that "Finland sang whatever song the Russians played and there's no denying it."-in complete opposition to the truth of it. I was out today and told a number of locals what you wrote. Man, they just laughed. (Sadly, they also all said, "Typical yank".)
c) It was you that said the Iranian leader is a fan of hitler. With absolutely no proof of such a claim.
d) You post quotes of Hitler saying, "if so much as a single French policeman would have opposed us, we would have withdrawn." without feeling ashamed at the stupidity of such a post.
e) You said, at 77: "Don't you know that the present president of Iran has threatened the United States with extermination?" and then you provide a quotation to 'prove' that. 1. You obviously didn't read the quote you posted.

In other words, you just make things up to suit your own prejudices. When someone contradicts you, you fire off more absurdities.

Read the quote you posted by ahmenejad.

Word by word translation:
Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).

Can you read Farsi?
www.president.ir/farsi/ahmadinejad/speeches/1384/aban-84/...

How it was reported in IRNA : Report Unsuitable

104. James 79

Peace be upon you Brother.

Fair point re Cuba comment. However the "sick dog" refers to your elite's military. Read the post again and you will see that's true.

Flag: Interesting. Why is a flag so important to you? Sincere question.

Finking,

You are the walking talking embodiment of self-delusion. You talked to "several locals?" This is how you substantiate your denial of reality? I have asked you to explain the significance of the Mannerhiem Line. You failed to respond. Impostor! Asking a Fin about the significance of the Mannerhiem Line is like asking someone from Pennsylvania about the significance of Gettysburg. And you have the nerve to question my knowledge of history? Sheesh!

Come on, Finster! Where are you really from? Aren't you really a Canadian visiting your boyfriend in Finland? No way at all that you're a Fin.

If there are any readers who have a couple of seconds please Google "Mannerheim Line." Then after you have read the what happened there and the consequences were, please enlighten Finking with the actual facts.

Also, I love the fact that after demanding my sources, not only to you try to substantiate your's by quoting 'several locals', you the back up your statement about the lunatic A'jad by quoting what source? The Iranian News Agency. Umm, Finsterino, that does little to strengthen your case. Please explain to everyone about the letter A'jad sent to the current chancellor of Germany.

Maybe you're Wally's alter ego.

Wally: Re the numbers game: It's been some time but I do remember reading that the Russians refused to allow the Poles to release data on the numbers. The zionists "guestimated" the Polish number and derived the overal 6m. When the Poles did release the data there was a large difference between the zionist estimation and the reality of the figures provided. I confess that I am no longer interested enough in such things to dig into it for you. Stalin, "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of a million is a statistic."

Thanks for the support on the Finland issue. It was an interesting period in Finnish history.

107. 57Nomad

Aha? Really?

First of all you answer the following, please; I asked them first:

a) Did Hitler say what you said he said about France?
b) Did Ahmanejad say that he supported Hitler?
c) Did Ahmanejad say that, "Israel, America should be wiped off the map"?
d) The quotation from him is well researched by many academics. My post included, sensibly, the very first mention of his speech which, as it happened, was by the newspaper I cited.

Also, what's your interest in TML?

Please answer these questions first.

To ALL other posters here:

Please do not post anything about the Mannerhiem line just yet. Let's see what this guy answers first.

It's a red herring, please wait.

57Nomad in 102/103:

Is it Nimrod or Nomad? I can't tell.

I'm aware of what the acronym NAZI stands for. Germans love acronyms.

I have spoken against the NAZIs many times on this forum. President Bush's grandfather worked for the NAZIs - the US government arrested him for it in October of 1942. He was working for the NAZIs for a period of 10 years and this stretched into WW2 after Pearl Harbor. I believe that it is you who supports this Bush fellow. So it doesn't make any sense for you to accuse me of being a NAZI.

Did a doctor put you on prozac?

Finn
Because I am loyal to the people who have died for me, loyal for those who protect me and willstand behind it and protect it for those who cannot...That does not mean marching blindly into the flames, so do not tell me that I am willing to do anything as long as its shrouded by patriotism.

James 79 in 104 - I appreciate your words on this forum. I wish to tell you that I am not anti-American. as you said in 112 I am like you loyal to the Americans I'm descended from. At same time I wish to tell you that there is much deception among us, and that the people who rule us are not our friends. Danger lurks in a huge way. We are not going to recover.

112. James 79

Thanks for being rational.

No, my question was sincere. I live in Finland and they too have a deep rooted passion for the flag. All the flag poles (and there are many!) hoist the flag one a month or so. To me, I have a culture that's 'important'. The 'nation state' I happened to be born in is irrelevant to me as that nation state contains various cultures. The Union Jack is the representation of an economic union, not a culture.

You understand my point? It's therefore difficult for me to understand anyone bowing to/saluting a flag. (or anything else for that matter!)

106. Finnking, Finland

Point of information.

"Flag: Interesting. Why is a flag so important to you? Sincere question."

The US flag is sacred to US citizens, and they take an oath of allegiance to it, much in the same way as in the UK the oath of allegiance is to the Queen.

115. bill, england

Did you ever take an oath of allegiance to the queen? I didn't and certainly wouldn't now.

FinnKing 106 -

you will not understand American thinking in your gut or your heart if you are not born in Ameica to American family that has history here. But you can understand it in your mind if you try.

As you know from reading me - I am not loyal to the United States as the United States is not loyal (I feel) to America and Americans.

We historically have much more patriotism than the peoples of other nations. Outsiders have trouble comprehending this. The US flag to us has very high status. Many of our people are like James79 and want to actually fight you if you harm one in front of them.

Why? When you ask Americans they will only say that it is for their forefathers who fought & died for it. It is more than just a respect for soldiers in the past fighting in wars. It is a respect for the people in peace time too who worked so hard and achieved so much to build our country.

America is a very special country with a very special history. That is why we will be mis-understood and even hated.

116. Finnking, Finland

I've never taken the oath of allegiance, because I've always been a plebeian (and proud of it).

This is the USA pledge of allegiance which all USA citizens have made many times. You may find it interesting to read the whole article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

#110--Finnking--you have met your match at last:)
this is an interesting battle of knowledge!

119. sandy

Please tell me you are joking! Please!

Hey Finerino,

When did you decide who answers what when?

I posted the quote from A'jad. You ask if I speak farsi, do you speak English? If you do then read what he said. If you don't then go back to grammar school and pay attention this time.

Wally, you have the attention span of a gnat. YOU are the one who called ME a Nazi! As I said before, name calling puts you in line for being asked for an explanation in person. You called me a Nazi. I called you a coward. I would very much like to meet you and discuss this in person.

For those of you who have already checked you needn't wait for the fake fin's permission. For those of you who haven't here's the short version.

In 1939 Russia invaded Finland because the Russians wanted to build a naval base in Finnish territory and the Finns refused. So the Russians, in their ever so subtle way, invaded Finland. The Finns had built a series of fortifications that became known as the Mannerhiem Line after Finnish Field Marshal Mannerheim. During the winter valiant Finnish soldiers inflicted, in the estimation of Khrushchev, one million casualties on the Russians.

By the spring the Russians regrouped and advanced into Finland behind a massive aerial and artillery barrage and forced the Finns to capitulate. Then for the next fifty years, the Soviets held the Finns on a very short leash. In the international arena they acted as a puppet of the Soviet Union. Along with Estonians, Latvian, Lithuanians, etc., they were not free to pursue independent foreign or domestic policies until the US under Ronald Reagan destroyed the evil empire.

If you read the Finman's reply to me you will notice that he weasels around the fact that he's not a Finn at all. EVERY Finn knows about the Mannerheim Line, like Texans know about the Alamo. Finky, you are an ignorant fraud. I noticed that you and Wally have sort of joined forces here. Isn't that special.
Well, two times

#111--Wally--your much like the Nazi's, in the way they spread their lies & mis-information & Wally, you are a master at it.

#121--57Nomad---thanks for the "Mannerheim line" heads-up... i was still looking at the pictures(fascinating)of what's left of the line, when my husband told me about it. he knew all.
BTW--your doing a "bang-up-job":))

#120--Finnking--would i kid you?? i'll ask "57Nomad" to be gentle w/you, ok??:)

#121 57Nomad

! hour and 20 minutes to google one answer, you on dial up???

121. 57Nomad

Such anger! Such nonesence!

a) Why did I ask if you spoke Farsi?
b) "If you don't then go back to grammar school and pay attention this time." -- good, glad you brought that up----You posted, "actively boycotting is an oxymoron” – mmm--- Now, the word “boycott” is a noun as well as a verb (which allowed you to add the continuous ending). “Actively” is an adverb which modifies a verb. Grammar school?
c)You post, "The Finns had built a series of fortifications that became known as the Mannerhiem Line after Finnish Field Marshal Mannerheim" --er no my little challenged friend, no. I've been waiting for you on that. The Mannerhiem Line was built in the 1920s. By the Winter War it was useless. Both sides used how useless it was as an excuse. BTW: Mannerhiem resigned when the Swedish influenced Finn government refused to give the Soviets access to Hanko.
d)"EVERY Finn knows about the Mannerheim Line, like Texans know about the Alamo. Finky, you are an ignorant fraud" -- oh yeah? see c!
e)" In the international arena they acted as a puppet of the Soviet Union." --oh no. So wrong. You have no idea how much the Finns have hated the russians.
f)"Along with Estonians, Latvian, Lithuanians, etc., they were not free to pursue independent foreign or domestic policies until the US under Ronald Reagan destroyed the evil empire" - simply wrong. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania (all nice places by the way) were indeed under soviet rule. Finland was not and has not been in any way, shape or form since 1917.
Lets look at other things you have said today: “Elephants are vegetarians, why then aren't they some predator's favorite meal?”
---er, Tigers?

“BTW do you know what Finland leads the western world in. It has the highest suicide rate. Great place to live.”
--er, not so exact. 10th according to the BBC (