In all fairness, I don't remember it ever being packed before the smoking ban.

I love a good real ale, and I don't even remember them having any to offer, despite the pubs name.

I know this pub. It's a dive, populated by a breed that is dying out and not being replaced, thank goodness. Its closure has nothing whatsoever to do with the smoking ban, and everything to do with the fact that the pub is knackered, badly laid-out, smelly and frequented by slacker pint-nursers.

Anyone who thought that investing £40,000 in this place two years ago was a good idea is out of his mind. It's been a dive for twenty years or more. There are plenty of thriving pubs in that area which disprove the ban theory. I'm sick of hearing the smoking ban blamed for bad business.

So , its sad when these legal drug dealers go out of business and great when the dope growers get into trouble.

This is good news. Community-Based ? Aye, no bother.

Well said Duncan.

It strikes me as pathetic that pub bosses are bleating about the smoking ban. They obviously don't try other ways of retaining customers. Use some imagination for god's sake. Introduce good cheap food - pies, rolls etc.
Have some cheap drink offers. Organise some pub activities - quizzes, games social nights etc. Surely a pub's livelihood doesn't solely depend on fags does it?

Good grief Blackley (#5) dae ye no ken what happens when people stop smoking? They eat and get obese - you canny win either way, as both are now unacceptable.

I suppose the smoking masked the smell of BO from the regulars

I wish they would bring smoking back - I am a non smoker and since the ban i have had to put up with Smelly BO, & people passing wind, and in general people with poor hygeine. When u think of it the smoke masked a hell of a lot of unplesantness in Pubs and Clubs

Not to mention the smell of stale ale carpets that get reg shampooed in Ale, Spirits and never washed as they stink so bad to.

Its true MandZ , and something I have noticed - pubs have suddenly became a LOT smellier.

Many old reekers that go to pubs barely wash .. the carpets or wooden floors have years of beer spills , there are ale farts to contend with.

Bring back the fags, better for the environment.

#9 - May I suggest you change the pubs you frequent?

what a whining crock. so, do something for gods sake. build a wee smoking area. put in a couple of extraction fans, whatever. get off your backside man, stop whining. you have a problem ? find the solution and JUST DO IT. we have a smoking ban here in the p.i. and it is enforced vigorously. its great, to be able to have a drink or meal without being suffocated. i dont hear anybody whining.seems like all the scots with gumption have already gone abroad.

Yet another example of Nazism in practice. Hitler would have been pleased.

An of course his decision not to show the rugby - forcing his regulars and all the passing trade of visitors walking past from Newington's numerous B&Bs to go elsewhere, on what were that pub's busiest days, has nothing to do with it all.

To be honest, the pubs that i go to have got a lot busier since the ban.i can see how it might have a dip if all the regulars smoke,especially in the old stlye locals, but having this ban makes going to the pub more popular for non smokers who prefer to have a drink that does not taste like ash.
true the other unpleasant smells aren't nice to contend with...but i can personally deal with them, rather than the poison in fags!

christ....i am sick to death of the....wooooooo i dont smoke and i can go out now brigade....what the hell did you do before the ban came in?...ok....the twits in the scottish executive have sorta won....until they get voted out in may, now we have to put up with b.o. and perfume that kills at 100 yards,stale drink smells....sweaty feet,farting,toilets that stink to the high heaven...oooooo..paradise eh?
get a life....get real...if theres food...no smoking in that area...if theres a smoking area and you dont smoke....dont go...you can most happily sit with the above metioned smells whilst i enjoy whats been an institution for hundreds of years.PROVE to me absolutely,not with so called research,about passive smoking?absolute proof...100% no qualms no arguments...medical and scientific.
am waiting????
still waiting?
still here but no answer....why? because you cant!!!simple!
by al means lets have a bit of common...let the non (pc brigade,i dont smoke and i dont see why others should smoke brigade) smokers have their area in a pub...and let the rest have theirs...with adequite ventilation.
oh? and by the way....in line with the scientific and medical stuff....gonna please explain to me where the government is going to find the billions that they loose in tax?(selling a legal substance that you are now being told where and when you can participate?)
no matter what you so called goody goodies reply...you will never win...all that will happen is...more and more public houses and clubs and bingo halls will shut down....cigarettes will become very expensive and cause more people to stop...therefor creating a tax loss to the executive...job losses...culture loss and social loss.
so you will lose the same as us smokers,in fact...i hope to hell that when the day(not a chance in hell by the way!) comes that everyone stops smoking....you are the idiots that are going to pay for the shortfall in the taxes...tax on your bodysmells...etc!<

i quite like poison in a bar actually, after all i like beer.

#15 Good on you Gordon, all this ban has accomplished is to give the self righteous, judgemental, rabid anti smokers a platform.

Some people put their money where their mouth is.
Lots of us appreciate this and are sad to see such efforts punished by divisive laws like the smoking ban. It's hard enough running a business without overpaid public servants putting their two-pennyworth in.
A true democracy provides for all its people. Variety is the spice of life - legislation stifles variety.
Soon we'll hear of damage caused by loud music so nightclubs have to close or the dangers of distraction by MP3 players so they're banned when walking and driving. Who knows where government intrusion will stop.
Let's have real democracy - representation proportional to the people.

Petrol head12 im sure he would!! Duncan2 Im sick and tired of hearing self-righteous anti-smokers like you defending the stupid ban!! Face it had it not been for the ban those people wouldnt have been unemployed- let the owner decide!!

Blackey5 the smoking ban is an insult to the owner's ability to run his/her business- ammend the ban- and allow smoking in some places at the owner's discretion!! Red tape legislates places out of business!!

Well said Kris17 as well!

I'm a smoker and the troll in me just loves seeing you other smokers desperately defending your habit.

You've lost - be gracious in defeat.

Its bad for you people. What bit do you now understand ?

Soon we will NOT see mp3 players getting banned , you really came out with a clown argument there.

This pub is closing because its rubbish , nothing to do with the smoking ban.

#18 Not true. Utterly, utterly untrue. The reason this pub is shutting is that it was badly laid out, badly run and badly stocked, and catered to a type of customer that is rapidly dying out. This closure has absolutely NOTHING to do with the ban on smoking. There are loads of pubs in that area which are flourishing under the ban. To blame the ban for a crap pub going under is pathetic, and a lie.

Is there proof that it doesn't cause ill health?absolute proof...100% no qualms no arguments...medical and scientific?

many years ago this bar was a nice restuarant with a bar uustairs,it changed hands and went down hill fast.There are many bars in the southside and this is one I steer clear off.

If u aren't gaining enough revenue, then something has to change. I pass the mcewans alehouse at least twice a day, and have been in a good solid once in the past 3 years! that being said, i am a student, perhaps if they were to offer a cheap meal deal at lunch, students would be more inclined to frequent the establishment, a 2 for 1 deal say, show more live sports to draw in the Saturday n Sunday crowds, revamp the place so it doesn't seem so hostile to enter! pretty simple ideas to be honest, not exactly hard to implement methinks. Ok so u move a bit away from the traditional pub setting, but at least there is a gain to be made!

Ooh I think Gordon (15) needs to get out more - think a raw nerve has been hit!!!! Its a cigarette - get a grip.....

So many posts proving what F2C have always said that anti smoking zealots care about no one but themselves. I of course do not know this pub, however if what the gentleman who runs it says is true that he has lost 20% of his business, that fact alone in a wet led boozer will cause bankruptcy that is a fact. If any of the posters new or understand the pub industry they would know that. I have been in the Industry for 20 years. The simple reality is that was it surviving before the ban, if so then the ban has killed it and around 200 licensed premises also in Scotland and in excess of 1000 in Ireland, and tens of thousands of businesses in the US and Canada costing hundreds of thousands of jobs based on a LIE supported and promoted by Big Pharma, through mouth pieces like Maureen Moore of ASH Scotland a lady who does not even know the facts of her employment, commenting on Research into smoking at home, she said the research was Tobacco funded a complete lie, she also stated that in Australia there was no evidence of smoking increasing at home, and yet it was the University of Australia who produced the first research that actual proved this. The point I'm making is no LIE is too big for the anti smoking lobby, however more importantly the rabid hate of anti smokers is a disgusting indictment on the Human Race, those who have posted F*** him posts should feel ashamed.

Only the landlord knows the "simple reality" bob, only us edinburghers know the "simple reality" that this pub was rubbish.

As far as im concerned, he sells Drugs to Alkies , another shady dangerous establishment closing down is fine by me.

Funny how most of the bars closing down are rubbish - simple economics really.

Dont expect sympathy from me when you work in the drug trade. Thats honestly the way i see it.

And if you knew and understood the Pub trade you will also know how many bar managers become addicted themselves to their brew.

Maybe people are slowly waking up to the fact that drinking is a pretty crap way to spend your life. On the other hand , maybe they just want to drink in nicer establishments, this wasnt one of them.

#24,25 I prefer pubs that are not full of students, as the customers are usually less smelly and dont sit spewing into buckets on pub crawls.

Why dont we ban students from drinking in pubs in Edinburgh?

#15
I think you hit the nail on the head - previously if you didn't like smoky pubs you had the right not to go! If you don't like smoke free pubs you too have the same right not to go. It’s up to you - if you want to stay in doors and be anti-social then feel free (puff away till your lungs explode), if you want to join the rest of us down the pub you're more than welcome. Don't blame this on a Scottish government, the ban's getting introduced down south in the next month or so and in France very soon. It’s already in place throughout major cities in the US and I'm sure the rest of the world will follow suit. It was nice to see the Scottish parliament stand on their own two feet for a change and bring in early adoption. Its life, things change and you just need to deal with it.

I have no idea about this particular establishment but one of my locals near Tollcross has ever since the smoking ban smells of the gents toilets/cleaning products to mask the smell so I no longer go there.

I popped my head around the door the other day to see if it was any more pleasent but it still smelt so I moved on, there was no one in there but a couple of old men and the bar staff. I would not be surprised if it goes out of business soon which is a shame as it has a nice bar in it. I can't belive it has been a year and the owners have done nothing about it.

#15 Gordon

Thanks for your contribution, I found it ........ There is no doubt that ......especially with the smell of .... you get in pubs now. But I think the solution is ......, but only if people support it. And I think many ..........

So more power to your ........... Gordon, you get your points across in such a succint and ...........manner.

Keep up the .............work

#11 How can he build a smoking area with extractor fans if the ban includes enclosed public spaces? Maybe all the numpties have left Scotland.

Bobfm #27

Another long tirade from you, but the simple fact is that Bob smokers stink. Why should I have to suffer their foul smoke if I go out.

Anyway you are too late mate. You are just having a good pointless whinge. The Law is cast, and Swindon will be with us by July.

If pubs close because of the smoking ban it is just their own fault, and invariably they are the dumps we can do well without.

That pub was a dive, i know someone who got a bag nicked, and heard of others, blaming the smoking ban!

Please get cancer so i can run my pub and let fights spill onto the street please...

re#8 yes thats true,i work in a pub and right enough since the smoking ban we have had our share of stinky people,farters and the smell of spilled beer isnt to hot either(im not very subtle if someone is stinky or if they let rip,i just get a nice ocean breeze air freshener out and aim in there direction)

#31 - Well said m'dear.......I agree.....

The said bar was a dump - you'll notice the ones that are staying open are ones that moved with the times and are not blaming everyone else for their bad business sense!!!!

Jeez all this for want of a ciggy.. Am a former smoker myself, gave it up 20 odd yrs ago.. personally it doesn't bother me 1 way or other.. I do however object to having somebody's smoke exhaled in my direction.. You want to do your lungs in, feel free, but leave mine alone.

Ex smokers, anti smokers the one common factor is your inability to put pen to paper without being insulting cruel, or inhuman. So let me get this straight tens of thousands of businesses world wide who were to varying degrees successful have to close because of the loss of trade forced on them by unwarranted and unnecessary smoking bans, and the owner is suddenly a bad business person. I see. So 11 bingo halls have close, 7 I think owned by Rank, are they bad business people.

Anybody got a light??

just reiteration of the non smoking propogandaie not in my lungs etc get a life tou brain dead a******s

JAMES HICKMAN SHOULD GO BACK TO SWIMMING THEN. http://www.jameshickman.com/

#43 Don't want to piss on your parade mate but those of us who don't smoke, I think its safe to say we HAVE a life!.. It's those wee lambs like yourself who follow the 'hook' who have no lives, who cant wake up in the morning without coughing half your lungs up, 1st thing on my mind in mornings is not 'I need a fag' can you say the same? I don't think so!! Go figure!!!

#15: Well said Gordon.

All these non-smokers who bang on about "having to suffer years of breathing in smoke" and "years of their clothes stinking"... Well, they still went down the pub, didn't they? And I daresay that they still enjoyed themselves.

This is in contrast to what smokers have to suffer nowadays. A lot of us don't go down the pub nearly so often now, and when we do, our enjoyment is somewhat curtailed.

A good indicator of public preference was the fact that before the smoking ban, nearly all pubs permitted smoking. Either in segregated rooms or in the main area if not practical.

This was called "supply and demand". The majority of non-smokers didn't complain, even though they had ample opportunity to do so. There was no need to upset the status quo.

An effect of this smoking ban has been to set people against one another. Before the nazis moved in, smokers and non-smokers could happily exist side by side in general. Now non-smokers are encouraged to insult and demean smokers in a way that would be totally unacceptable in any other circumstances. If you don't believe me, look at some of the comments in this thread.

Can you imagine the furore if you called a muslim man "filthy and stinking"? Can you imagine the furore if you referred to a homosexual as "abhorrent and pumping fumes all over me"?

These are both examples of what smokers have to suffer nowadays from morons who are too stupid to know better. The chances are that they would not do this if it weren't for encouragement by an equally moronic government.

This ban, and it's attendent perpetrators, need to go NOW!

14. Kit
“… the pubs that I go to have got a lot busier since the ban…”
This has been the experienced in New Zealand for clubs and bistros, especially their restaurants.
This has been hammered out in other forums and what surprises me completely is the difference between the Scottish and NZ experience. It has been a success here and is just becoming a fact of the times - non smokers (the majority) are not forcing smokers to give up - just not exhale smoke, which many find offensive (similar to flatulence) around them when they are relaxing.
The arguments will fly fast and furious and some rather spurious such as pubs closing in Ireland. Most were country pubs and the enforcement of tighter ‘drink-driving’ regulations plus supermarket sales was making them unviable before any ban - hey there was 10,000 pubs in Ireland and the good one -especially in Dublin are booming despite the ban. I read in one of the past forums one ex-patron stating that he is not returning to a pub until the ban is lifted - that attitude is good for his health, his wallet, his family; bad for the publican and shows his
Is being quite unreasonably to believe smoking will return to pubs.

Crap Pub LAndlord Whinges Rubbish as Forced to Close.

How come a smoking ban can go through in France -the home of smokey cafes and bars - and also the home of protesting - without major incident - BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT IS A GOOD IDEA!! Lets not forget smokers are in the minority in this country who force their stink on others nearby. how much hassle it it to go outside every time you need a cigarette - too much exercise for them I suppose to walk 10 metres.

Poor management on Hickman's part the pub was needing the kiss of life remember being in it years ago never went back a pub is only as good as it's clientele

PetrolHead , you are not a "smoker" any more than I am a "Bread Eater" .

Define yourself how you wish, but smoking kills Mate , you know it , I know it the whole world knows it.

Maybe its time you stopped. Freedom to hurt yourself is not a freedom. Are you going to fight the whole 1st world as it slowly moves to being smoke free in public places ?

Im sick to the back teeth of a Drink/Fag/Football obsessed Scotland and the tide is changing, albeit slowly.

#22: In answer to your question, yes. There is proof that "passive smoking" does not harm your health. It's called "hard evidence" otherwise known as "real world evidence".

There have been NO DEATHS AT ALL where the cause of death has been listed as "passive smoking". There have been NO DEATHS AT ALL where contributary elements to the main cause of death has been listed as passive smoking. In fact there are NO DEATH CERTIFICATES AT ALL that mention "passive smoking".

Proof enough? It is for me.

#46

"Can you imagine the furore if you called a muslim man "filthy and stinking"? Can you imagine the furore if you referred to a homosexual as "abhorrent and pumping fumes all over me"?"

What are you banging on about!!! It is a fact that a smoker does stink and pump fumes - FACT. Why would you call a muslim filthy or a homosexual abhorrent. This is the sort of logic you would expect in a tabloid.

#49: Dave. The smoking ban didn't go unopposed in France. If I remember, the cafe and bar owners threatened an indefinate strike. So did the tobacconists.

#51: Yes. I know the risks. I accept the risks. They are often blown out of all proportion but I still accept that there is a risk. I do not wish to give up smoking as I enjoy it.

Why don't you take up smoking? You don't know what you are missing. The aroma and flavour of a fine cigar perfectly compliments a good Cognac. As a non smoker you will never experience that. I feel sorry for you and people like you.

#53: Dave.

How eloquant you are at describing your own attributes! If not physical, then certainly mental.

#51 Some people cant be educated Marie...

27. Bobfm, Swindon
Hi Bob, you reckon that the ban has killed “in excess of 1000 in Ireland…”
Was this because of the ‘smoking ban’? or other factors?
Weren’t most of these rural pubs and that ’ regular customers are staying at home, frightened by strict laws against drunken driving.’ Read’’ SOBERING times for Ireland's rural pubs’
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/12/news/ireland.php
There were 10,000 pubs in Ireland some in very small areas that eventually for many reason would close; but ‘business is good for the fewer than 1,000 pubs in Dublin, the capital.’ Smoking may have had a bit of an impact but the decline and closures were before the smoking ban was enforced as the history of Irish pubs shows.

I do smoke PH, 20 a day at the least.

I can accept that its wrong to force people to inhale my smoke *whether or not it may kill them*. If they dont like it , fine I respect their wishes.

Amazing so the good ones in Ireland survive so here we go again so 10% of the pub stock were bad then. I think the point about the Muslim and the homosexual is an obvious one, both are protected from discrimination, smokers are not despite the fact that they out number Muslims and homosexuals by many thousands of time. Many Muslims eat spicy foods which the smell of, some find offensive but a complain of that nature towards a Muslim would be automatically assumed to be racist. Similar comments about say BO in a homosexual would also be construed as prejudice. Say a smoker smells and others jump on the band wagon.

If pubs going to the wall is what it takes to end the misery of alcohol deaths and some cancer deaths , if the whole scottish economy crumbles because of it - in the long term i think its worth it.

Nothing personal Petrolhead , i have too much personal experience of the trouble and pain they cause. Avoidable is the key word.

Bob , get help mate. Honestly, you are chasing a lost cause with ridiculous arguments.

Theres such a thing as being stubborn and pigheaded beyond belief. Im not even going to tell you what is wrong with your statement above - because you already know.

#59 They dont smell because they are homosexual or Muslim but a smoker smells out of personal choice. If I am around someone who smells of spicy food or BO I dont come away with that smell attached to me (unless they are REALLY smelly!!!)

#59 You post infers that being a smoker, muslim or homosexual is mutually exclusive. I am sure there are a few who fall into multiple catagories but i did not see any gay bars complain that the smoking ban was discriminatory to homosexuals who smoke in gay bars :)

#22 kit
theres a very simple and easy answer to that,only anti-smokers ever brought up that subject/so called disease,so i certainly dont have to prove or disprove that passive smoking causes health problems!thats up to the scientists/medical practitioners.
#33 steve99....the reason for the ........ is to give some of the less reasonable to try and get a grasp of the debate and the points that are being made,not only by me but by many..............
#46 petrol head.
thanks....so correct,re-iterating my point exactly...prior to the ban,where did these people go for a social night out?and did they go out topubs and spend the night moaning,whinging and tit tit titting at smokers? maybe they had to smell a wee bit smoke,after all most resposible pubs did have expelairs.
still none can or has even tried to answer y main point! lets all stop smoking(legal and very widely available) where is the tax thats raised going to be generated?

That this pub has failed doesn`t surprise me.With the advent of the smoking ban there were going to be winners and losers.This one`s in the losing cateogery as it was dependant on the "dinasaur brigade".Any sensible drinker does not frequent this type of establishment and the way ahead is for either trendy bars or sensible good real ale pubs which this is neither.He shoud have seen this coming, for as they say nothing lasts forever and other than a few bars in more off centre areas this type of pub is finished.
My advice would have been to him was to start a good real ale pub which would attract a better clientel and prosper.To name names,look at Cask and Barrell ,Bow Bar,Thomson`s in Morrison St which was a pub like his and now prospers with good ale.The name of the pub shares no resemblence to what it should be like.

59. Bobfm, Swindon
“ Amazing so the good ones in Ireland survive so here we go again so 10% of the pub stock were bad then. “
Don’t know if you clicked on to the link about pub closures in Ireland and were referring to that in your above statement? http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/12/news/ireland.php
It shows that small unprofitable bars were closing for reasons other then the smoking ban but many who are against the ban keep bring up the demise of these as having been caused by the ban - a bit mischievous really.

I have several friends who suffer from Bobfm's problem; they are intelligent addicts. They find themselves unable to give up a long established habit, that they can now recognise as not only anti-social but downright dangerous.

However, their intelligence and vanity will not allow them to accept that their behaviour is plainly weak and illogical, so they strive to construct a case from increasingly spurious evidence to defend it.

He is to be pityed - I know, because I have been there. Having smoked for 45 years, I tried everything to stop and couldn't, so I too resorted to denial with all of these foolish justifications too. Until my eldest grandchildren grew old enough to cajole me to stop. Having lost their other two grandparents to the weed, they were genuinely afraid for me.

I haven't smoked now for 5 years, and feel better than I have ever felt since passing 50 (over 20 years ago). I still dream about smoking from time to time, but I know from experience that it has the same hold as alcoholism, and one will be too many.

I know nothing of the pub in question ,but from what I understand from the above comments, it was a drinkers local.These are the type of pubs that are suffering the most I'm sure now in Scotland & Ireland & the picture will be the same soon in England & Wales.

The strange thing is that having discussed the subject of smoking bans both at work & in pubs, most non smokers I've met are fairly indifferent about the situation.It seems that these type of message boards hold some magnetic attraction for the extreme antis, who are not prepared to consider any degree of compromise.
I actually think there should be better ventilation in many bars & if the market force is there demanding totally non smoking facilities in some pubs, then so be it.

I think the comment in the article about pubs being a social meeting place is an important one.If the customers decrease then I'm afraid we'll be reading many more examples of this story.It won't just be the smokers who loose out if say a village's only pub shuts,as a result of what really is an unecessary piece of legislation.The social meeting place will have been lost for everyone.

Further to my comment I now realise he was leasing it from our now defunct in Edinburgh and now multi national Scottish and Newxcastle.His hands would be tied with being only allowed to sell their products which now are just fizz.They do not brew real ale so the man as they say was up s... creek without a paddle.With hindsigh he should have realised this before supping with the "devil".

Crap pub closes? Big deal. Hopefully, a decent pub will open on the site.

A bit pathetic to blame the smoking ban when their customers were mostly jakies, neds and pint-nursing OAPs.

I can't stand student pubs, but anyone can see that it's student central in Newington, so any sensible landlord would cater for students. This landlord thought he knew better; he didn't!

Oh, and as for all the smokers complaining about the smoking ban- GIRFUY!

the good thing about smokers is that they usually die before pensionable age or if they do reach it is is not for long. so they are doing us all a favour by dying early and leaving more of the pension pot for the rest if us.
they are just junkies like the rest of the poor sados that use less legal drugs. put up the price of cigarettes and drop the price of booze. at least when you are drinking you are not thowing your bevvy in other people's faces.

Dennis , personally I'm would be happy either way smoke ban or no smoke ban. Im happy to accept it.

The good thing about the smoking ban is that smokers can always get in on the gossip standing outside and I guess its also a good way to chat up the opposite sex.

so there are some positives ?

arrow how thick are you a smokers never dies through smoking plus i cant wait until more pubs close so the students/ parisites cant get a job then mayby they will p/ off back where they came from and i as a tax payer wont have to fund them

Scaramouched penned this while on morphine today. Please forgive him.

They, asked me how I knew
That my pub would would close
I of course replied, what I knew inside,
Smoking was denied.

They, said some day you'll find
All who smoke are blind
When your pub's on fire, you must realize
Smoke gets in your eyes.

So I chaffed them, and I daily laughed
To think they would doubt our pub
Would stay open day by day, but it's true
I'm without my pub.

Now my friends decide
Tears we cannot hide
We know that when a pub must die
No smoking killed our pub.

No smoking killed our pu-u-ub!!!

*Adapted from "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" by Jerome Kern and Otto Harbach

The problem though Finbarr is that when a pub closes it's normally for good.I can't see why every pub near to a University should have to specifically cater for students & in any case the article clearly states that the guys takings were down 1k per week after the ban.I think it's important that we have pubs to suit all types of trade.

Arrow I'd be interested to hear where your statistics come from with that gem of a statement.

Mario -Yes never thought of that -lol

I have said it before and I will say it again stop worrying about SHS it is harmless what you should worry about is what your are breathing in that you carnt see!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6422699.stm

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/diesel_lung_cancer.html

http://news.scotsman.com/health.cfm?id=1178382006

http://www.nutramed.com/environment/carschemicals.htm

http://www.joevialls.co.uk/transpositions/smoking.html

I've never smoked, I simply could never see the point of spending all that money and setting fire to it. I can honestly say that I go into pubs a lot more since the ban because it's so nice to be able to go home and wear the same jacket the next morning as it doesn't stink of smoke. I like a pub which offers decent food, a good selection of fine wines and single malts, and if it really must have 'background music' (surely an oymoron) is discreet enough to allow conversation to continue.
I don't know why people feel the need to associate alcohol with smoking....the two are absolutely poles apart in my experience.

If you smoke you will know that a cigarette tastes twice as good along with a drink and is part of socialising and relaxing on a night out. I go out to be IN a pub not outside it as I have done for 37 years and pay hard earned money for this pleasure ! In several european countrys there is still choice for smokers and non smokers,surely as a democratic country we should have the same ?and I for one think it will be a crying shame if we were to lose all our traditional pubs because of the smoking ban, especially if they are 100 years old or more! I don,t care for these modern ones that look like a converted barn? you can keep them!

Ive attended the pub in this report for a few months and can't recognise it from the description offered above a dive full of neds and pint-nursing OAPs. Not that it would matter if I could. Everybody needs a social outlet. The pub has offered a good environment (including live music) as testified by those who signed the petition (I signed it) and is clearly popular with the people that use it. People who call a pub crap, and are happy for it to close just because it doesn't suit their particular tastes, have no respect for the preferences of others. It wasn't crap at all, it was a place where you could feel at home very soon after walking in.

You may think the smoking ban has no particular impact on trade. You may think the association of smoking with a drink and conversation shouldn't have any value. But people react differently from you. Dennis, I think you have it right – most of us who don't smoke (or smoke rarely) don't find it a problem that others enjoy it. Social meeting places are going to die, and leave many of us including the neds and pint-nursing OAPs without opportunities for social gatherings. This is the legacy of an administration that has left the concept of making social contacts and social arrangements out of their equation. Now we can't make such arrangements without the scrutiny of officials. How bad is that?

74 - MIML

Hope Scaramouche has kept copies of ALL his ditties, and the headlines that inspired them. The making of a very good publication. I would buy it. (then again, as a fellow traveller, I'd expect a free copy!)

Seriously tho', if you look at the posts, it WOULD probably be a very viable option.

He's obviously past the worst now - when's he gettin' to go back home?

Smoking is a legal activity otherwise the government are guilty of drug dealing. You can buy fags, but don't let us catch you smoking them in public....or else. Imagine if petrol, which omits some several thousand times more carcinogens into the air was sold with the same regulations...we wouldn't get very far, would we? The fact that you can legally get blootered, (nae bother), pee yer drawers, vomit in the street and go home and beat the crap out of your wife....fine! Smokers can't do the latter...they need at least one hand for their fag, the other for their can of pale ale. They drink less too because they are spending time puffing away rather than constantly pouring booze down their necks.I've more than paid for my health care, and probably a few other folks too, when you consider 35 years of paying tabacco tax. I know people who have never smoked in their lives, and got cancer. I also know people who have smoked all their lives and died in their eighties. Whats for you won't go passed you. Just think...everytime you start your car, the exhaust has pumped out the equivalent of 600 cigarettes within 60 secones....food for thought,eh?

Ahh, the tobacco taliban are at it again. Problem for them is that once they have got sick and tired of hounding the smokers is that they will start on the fatties.

Not much of a worse sight than a big fat pig wolfing down a pie and denigrating someone that wants to light up and enjoy a peaceful smoke.

#80 You have very strange taste in pubs. If you really think this was such a nice one (and you are the first person I have ever heard describing it in such a way, and I know the pubs in this area very well) then please explain why you think it has closed while the many others in that area remain open. How can you possibly blame the smoking ban when other pubs under exactly the same restrictions and in the same area aren't just surviving, they are thriving?

Yes, we know you opposed the ban. That doesn't give you or anyone else any logical leg to stand on in this argument, because ALL pubs are subject to the ban, so if some are thriving and others are shutting then clearly there are other forces at play.

A little honesty in this debate would be welcome.

Never mind Duncan, we are up against intellectual giants here that compare petrol to fags and sign petitions to keep failing pubs open , which misses the point of capitalist society and economic basics totally.

Theyve lost, let them witter and die.

1. For those who blamed the manager for not doing enough to attempt to deal with the smoking ban, like the guy from the Phillipines, I would make two points; firstly, that he clearly has tried - he has sunk £40,000k into the pub which he ain't gonna get back. Secondly, if you are any way involved in the licensed trade you will know that when the smoking ban came live at the end of April 06 the regulations issued by the Executive were so difficult to understand that it took several months for the local council's to issue new planning amenity policies, it was months before Scotland's top legal minds could safely advise their clients on what it all meant, and it was even more months before the humble publican could take all this in.

2. Message boards such as this are awash with raving anti's, foaming at the mouth with incandescence. You guys must have been storing up these rants against smokers for a long, long time. The

3. For Christs sakes lets give the publican a wee break. Most of them are tied up in horrifically burdensome leases with some pubco or other ; and are being hit with a series of dramatic legislation changes which critically affects their business. No sooner has the trade come to terms with the smoking ban than the provisions of the new licensing Act are bearing down.

4. Mary of ASH should be ashamed of herself. I have been following the smoking ban due to an interest in the trade since it was first announced and she has spouted lie after lie. She has castigated the new report that says children are being affected by a rise of smoking in the home as a result of the ban - her response was to say that the report was funded by the Tobacco industry and was untrue. Firstly, the report was completely impartial, and secondly, how many reports about "second hand smoke" which she and her or organisation depends on were all sponsored by cancer charities? It reminds me of the old quote that the bigger the lie, and the more you force

Well all of you who are posting remarks about a pub being bad must have not been in it for at least a year - this is when James started not 2 years ago as the newspaper claims. It was cleaned, and the clientele has been grand, both old and young, the drug dealer was caught downstairs about 6 months ago and told never to come back. The place is heeving on Mondays, Fridays and Saturdays. Compared to many tenants James did care - there is an Alzmeier's sufferer on the street who often wanders at night on his own - James always rushed to help him, something you'll never find next to a new trendy place. Many people compared the new MAH to a place "where everybody knows your name", and "a pub given back to Edinburgh". This is the community feel you Edinburgh people are losing by a minute. The whole point of giving the interview was (1) to forewarn prospective tenants who are ready to plunge their savings and hopeful of a fast turnaround - do not believe S&N adverts, they suggest support you'll never get, as well as (2) try to rescue the place by publicity and popular vote - I am sure if we were given a chance of survival we'd bring it to breakeven. However, looking at Scottish 500-1000 people losing jobs here and there and living on incapacity benefits with slim chances of any better life what chances does a small pub outside downtown have? And can you name for me the benefits of capitalist society - are they welfare benefits sponsored by taxpayers? Or freedom of speech censored by lawyers and measured by accountants?
Best regards

#87 I can see your point of view, but you make a number of inaccurate statements for somebody claiming to be knowledgeable about the trade and the ban. For a start, the ban came into force in the middle of March 2006, not the end of April!

Secondly, claims that regulations were difficult to understand do not mean that the basic law - no smoking - was difficult to understand. Indeed, I think every publican understood what that meant, and was able to act on it from the first day. Suggesting otherwise in disingenuous.

I agree that many publicans in tied houses are operating under very burdensome leases and constraints. Why then, when a pub clearly suffering from those constraints closes, does the cry immediately go up that the smoking ban is to blame? Why are we not castigating the breweries, who continue to make massive profits by being ruthless with their tenants? Why are we not looking at the broad picture, rather than leaping to the conclusion that the ban must be to blame?

In response to your final point, indeed the ban is here to stay. Perhaps it would have been better to have high quality ventilation as a requirement, but let's be clear that the people who stopped that happening were the licensed trade themselves - they had every opportunity to solve this problem, and despite action plans and agreements, achieved nothing for ten years. And importantly, remember that in the end the trade themselves were arguing for a blanket ban rather than a cherry-picked one, because cherry-picking would have a negative effect on the competitive landscape whereas a blanket ban affects everyone in the same way.

#22 Kit Edinburgh.
Are you a doctor?
I have never smoked. I am 66 and was diagnosed 2 years ago with shading on one lung.
The cause standing in smokey pubs for 45years breathing in smokers poisons.
Dont talk rubbish, you are in denial.
A freind of mine died last year 30 a day man. When told he had cancer he asked the doctor if he should stop smoking. Answer, just enjoy yourself the damage is done! Smoking Kills get it.

The brewery wasn't castigated in the article because it is a sacred cow - would you want to be summoned to court for a case presented by the best lawyers in Scotland? Therefore, the ban is to blame.

#87. Point 2. I think you'll find that the "raving anti's, foaming at the mouth with incandescence" are equally balanced with the similarly foaming pros comparing those who support the ban with perpetrators of mass genocide in Europe in the 30s and 40s. A bit sad really.

Your final analysis is spot on, the ban is here to stay, there is virtually no prospect of it being reduced or revoked. Untimately everyone needs to adapt and get on with it.

# 85. Duncan in Edinburgh + # 86. Dayvan Cowboy and #87. Charlie
All made correct conclusions: “pubs under exactly the same restrictions and in the same area aren't just surviving, they are thriving..” “..the ban is here to stay..”
Times change - habits change - trends change and some fight these changes - bringing up all sort of revisionist arguments to try and hold on to things past and in business attitudes no longer profitable.
Most things, even pubs, have their sell by date. Take for instance one a proud company, decades of satisfied customers, Royal Apointment, used by rich, some poor and the most influential businesses and academic institutes in the country. It outdid its competitors in quality, price, packaging and delivery it was the best, the very best in its field. It went broke - why?

93. Robbie
They refused to accept change and stood loyally by their product - boasting of its benefits and quality. To them it was simply the best ‘bloating paper’ around.

93. Robby
The pubs are not as profitable as before but building owners hiking the rent and the city council revising rateable value ones in so many years refuse to accept the fact. The question is - which high street businesses are profitable these days except for those run large companies with huge advertising budgets? I walk many Edinburgh streets and I cannot see many heeving venues, in fact many plastic ones stay completely empty during the day, organic businesses have less customers than McEwan's at tea-time during the week.

#90: With all due respect, you ASSUME that your problems were caused by standing in smoky pubs.

Of course, it may be possible that this contributed to some degree. However there is every chance that they were caused by a combination of all sorts of things---nothing to do with tobacco smoke.

Tell us... What PROOF do you have that your problems were caused by breathing in tobacco smoke? What PROOF do you have that this was the only cause?

I can tell you that I was not on the first page of that petition. So I am not the only one with a peculiar taste in pubs, if that is what it takes to like McEwans.

Smoking bans affect pubs differently, partly depending on the clientele and partly on other factors. The ability of pubs to overcome all the complications over lease and other contractural issues are obviously important, but obviously if you are dealing with a largely smoking clientele the smoking ban does not help matters. The article does describe other pubs that are struggling to keep open. The difference can lie in the brewery's determination to keep them open.

For those who are convinced that the smoking ban is with us to stay I refer you to http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/news_detail.aspx?artic...,
which describes how a legal challenge to the smoking ban by Freedom to Choose may delay its implementation south of the border.

Having never been in the McEwans Alehouse I can't comment on what it was like inside, having a quick look in while pub crawling in the area brought up an instant.. nah, and of somewhere else.

I love the smoking ban, now I can go home after a few beers or ten and wear the same clothes the next day.. usually. No longer do I have to peer through a cloud of smoke blown into the midst of the table, no longer do we suffer the gauntlet of Burny Fag Ends of Doom on the way to the bog or bar. Yes, and what's even better is the occasional wave to one's poor cancer-collecting friends as they huddle outside in the rain nursing their addiction. Shame.

If that wasn't enough the hilarious comments from some real items on these pages really add the final icing on the cake. "Hitler would have been proud". Yes I can just see it:

Hitler: "Von Paulus has lost Stalingrad! Mein Gott! Oh damn.. damn.."
Jodl: "Never mind Mein Furher, ve have banned smoking in zer public places!"
Hitler: "That's more like it! Vho cares about zilly Stalingrad anyvay! Today smoking in zer pubic places, tomorrow zer world!"

#87. If children are being affected by parents smoking more at home, then that simply demonstrates three things a) the abysmal parenting skills of those involved b) that the ban has actually forced them out of the pub, to spend more time at home - something that should be welcomed if they weren't busy damaging their kids at the time. c) If kids are being damaged it demonstrates the effects of passive smoking unless the parents are handing tabs to their kids, which wouldn't suprise me.

#88. If the pub was heaving on the Fridays, Saturdays and Mondays (?) then presumably it had to be barren the remainder of the week in order for the landlord to lose his purse. If the smoking ban was killing trade on those days then why not on the days it was heaving? Just curious.

As of 5 years we have had no Smoking in the pubs it has hurt some business for awhile but they have come back up The smokers go outside for a puff then back in to finish their Ale No problem Either that or party at home

#89 - My main concern is that where once the state pursued smokers they are moving more and more into other areas. The Scottish Executive's policy machine in mince mode overdrive - i.e. spuing out a lot of nonsense and legislating in areas they shouldnt be.
Having banned smoking, Holyrood is now moving to other things which are bad for you, like alcohol and salt. Think Im kidding? Just today they announed a new labelling system for alcoholic products - expect warnings like on fag packets, but on your bottle of Buckie or Cloudy Bay, depending on your beverage of choice.
My point about the poor smoking ban regulations was that, as the ban came in, publicans were falling over themselves to try and accomodate all their smoking patrons but didnt how to, because the regulations were drafted so poorly. Have a look at them and you'll agree, I'm sure - and, oops, got the date wrong. Hands up on that one.
lastly, about kids being affected by smoke, my point there is simply that ASH need to take a good look at themselves. I agree with you that parents who smoke at home in front of their children also need to take such a look.

No.99
Gaudd,
Monday was a very popular quiz night, if you ever use facebook.com please see McEwan's on the up group, it has photographs.

We are talking about the pub of over 4K weekly turnover, and it means a lot of people, it did not survive just because it was sold as a 5K net of VAT pub, because once this is what it was making. Smoking ban issue was brought on by the newspaper.
Best regards

#99 I think it's fair to say most pubs are at their busiest Fridays & Saturdays.Pubs need a regular weekday trade as well & I suspect this was what was hit the most badly by the smoking ban.
There may well have been other reasons for the closure , but I'm guessing the reduced trade caused by the ban was the final straw.
#92Most of the pro choice posts are backed by fact & presented in a perfectly civil manner.I purposely worded this pro choice rather than pro smoking.We need a choice of both facilities rather than the existing & planned descrimination directed at smokers.

If this is the same pub I recall as facing the old Odeon cinema, a quick conflagration might be a peaceful anfd deserved end. Perhaps petrol head could help out?

# Duncan, of Edinburgh.

Again I am disappointed in reading many of the comments made in these posts, and I find that they firmly establish in my mind how this smoking ban is a deliberately socially engineered policy designed to divide and fragment people. Again, the anti-smoking fanatics demonstrate their complete hatred and intolerance of other folk. They regard people who do not share their point of view as being pro-smoking. Any concept that many people would have accepted compromise is something that they are totally blind too. Their fanatical hatred of people who smoke overwhelms any form of tolerance and common sense within them. They insult and demean people of all walks of life, deride the efforts of people who have attempted too work hard and try to build their business's up, insult the people who have in the past enjoyed going into these places and arrogantly they show themselves as venomous against those who don't agree with their warped mentality. They hate kids in baseball caps, elderly people, traditional pubs, the smoking ban surely has had it desired effect in allowing these single minded characters, 'a soapbox' too stand on and rant their nasty remarks. There is of course the usual suspects, 'Duncan of Edinburgh' our regular 'Mr Establishment' who whenever I read his comments makes me wonder if everything that he doesn't like, what and who he doesn't like be designated to history. He complains if he is compared to being 'a control freak' or a fascist, yet always he wishes to enjoy this new divisive state we find ourselves in, I can't think of any pubs up the South-side that is doing well at the moment due to this ban. I don't see all you pure and fragrant people out there in your droves filling the pubs with any convivial conversation. Any business that has become insolvent due to this evil ban was rubbish, the proprietors, rubbish, the pensioners rubbish, you like to see people standing in the rain so as to ridicule them. Wherever these f

Anti smokers -

Would the easy solution to this not be designated pubs/hotels with a large sign warning non-smokers that smoking is permitted in the establishment?

To protect barstaff, a separate, ventilated room could be provided for smokers (there is already allowance for smoking bedrooms in hotels).

stef #105

What a great post!

#104, no it is not the same pub facing the old cinema, it is a completely different place. Try it out if you manage before the shutdown, you'll be truly amazed.

#105 I would respond to your personal remarks, "Stef", if I could understand them. But since the sentences attacking me in your post are barely coherent, I am unable to establish exactly what it is you don't like about me. Feel free to have another go, and if you manage something intelligible I'll be sure to respond.

Your belief that the smoking ban was designed to fragment society and foment hatred is ludicrous. It was designed to improve the health of one of the sickest populations in Europe. It was supported by all 13 medical Colleges in the UK, representing practitioners of every branch of medicine in this country. Paranoia, exaggeration and rhetoric do not change the fact that the policy has been successful and widely welcomed.

And as to your query as to where people are drinking and socialising these days - the answer is, exactly where they were before. Despite your strenuous efforts to convince us that the sky is falling, it isn't. The smoking ban has not had the catastrophic effect that you predicted, and to pretend that it has is to fly in the face of the evidence.

#108 I wish you luck in your attempt to save this pub if it truly has changed into one worth saving (it wasn't the last time I was in, but that was more than a year ago). I'm sorry that the Evening News turned this into a smoking ban story when by rights it should probably have been a story about S&N's dreadful treatment of tied houses, and dreadful beer. But I would also observe that Edinburgh in particular, and Scotland in general, is massively over-supplied with licensed premises, and the abundance of licenses contributes to the massive damage that alcohol is doing to our health and our health service. We need a serious cut in alcohol sales, and that means a serious cut in the number of pubs and off-sales establishments if we are going to seriously tackle the devastating problems of alcohol abuse. So let's fight to save the good ones, by all means, but face the fact that many need to close.

#110. Duncan, I have been to that pub on several occasions, and found it a welcoming place, I went as a friend of someone doing gigs there, and that was attracting quite a few people. Many remarked on improvements in the place. It attracted people of many ages and quite a few young people were happy to spend some of their Saturday evening there.

I understand you support the smoking ban and I don't ... but I don't believe it is productive to somehow drive places out of business (whether by banning smoking or any similar mechanism) in the expectation that drinking will go down. If people drink heavily that is a symptom of problems as well as a cause and cutting off the drink supply won't solve the underlying problem. Pubs have the upside of being social centres, and the downside of providing alcohol. If people lose their social centres they are not going to want to drink (or smoke) less.

#110
Duncan, thank you for your wishes, the response from people in the past days was fantastic. It was really a case of big efforts and looking at the place yesterday it was difficult to understand how it happened that James worked there almost for free for one year, the place feels friendly and safe, and he is leaving with huge personal debts and spoilt credit history, imploring people to come back if case somebody else enters the tenancy agreement with the brewery "to give the new owner a chance". I agree that S&N must understand the effect they make on people's lives and be mature enough to live up to corporate resposibility promises.