when will people realise, the UN is a joke. Rwanda, Bonsia, etc etc etc.

#1 Quite right. But they sure can make somme very bold statements and declarations. The next cry will be for someone to do something... who do you think they'll look toward? China? India? hmmm...

Even the name is laughable. "United" Nations. There are 192 countries with 192 agendas, hardly united.

#1

But when Israelis get killed by Palestinian suicide bombers, Israel gets condemned for getting in the way of Palestinian shrapnel.

The UN is and always has been a toothless entity, unable to achieve anything in the world. If those countries that agree on anything want to use this "united front" to get anything done .... then they'd better let it grow a pair!!!

Time for diplomacy ended 40 years ago when the military took over and ran there dictatorship
Its time to take out a few selected targets, starting with the Mig29 airbases and aircraft (one of the reasons the Russians are not keen on sanctions or any action), followed by the the other military bases
its comand and control centres, finally destroy the new capital Pyinmana, specifically the military headquarters and palaces of the dictator
Thats what SHOULD happen, sounds perhaps over the top, but frankly Im fed up with the UN being a talking shop, with the US and French trying to look good by threatening to freeze assets and to curb visa applications - big deal! or the Russians and Chinese blocking any action, because basically they are only have there own interests at heart and couldnt care less about the people. Same goes for the British government who also pay lip service and tread water until any demonstrations are wiped out, tghen its back to business as usual.

Wonder of wonders, Bush has discovered Burma! It's his new buzz word. Wonder where all this US interest has been for the past ....??? years.

#7

Java said:

"Wonder of wonders, Bush has discovered Burma! It's his new buzz word. Wonder where all this US interest has been for the past ....??? years."

I wondered how long it would be before some loser wandered in to the thread and some how manage to tie G.W.Bush to the actions of the Burmese junta.

#7

Good point, Nomad. But really, can some other country take the burden of the UN for a while? Can the people of the world create a resolution to push the UN building into the sea?

No outright condemnation from UN after soldiers kill monks in Burma;
------------------------------------------------------
The UN is 90% an organization of toothless political whimps.

The Burmese Monks are Buddists. So of course CHINA will not stop their slaughter.

CHINA supports the JUNTA

Just look at what CHINA has done and is doing to Tibet.

My country the US pays 75% of total cost to keep the UN in business. The US Congress should pull the money rug from this sad and useless organization.

Bush is not interested in the JUNTA , but he is interested in OIL. and they have none.

Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia proves where Bushes interest lies.

So you Burmese MONKS you are all on your own baby.

GC

#10: Burma has both oil and natural gas deposits. hrw.org/english/docs/2007/03/24/burma15557_txt.htm

Let's try that again.
www.hrw.org/english/docs/2007/03/24/burma15557_txt.htm

Okay, so everybody here thinks that the UN is an incompetent group of self centered politicians. Good, I agree. Now lets move on to what is important. People are dying in Burma for what they believe in! They are dying for what most of us here have: freedom of speech, freedom of press, and most importantly freedom from fear of their government. I have been to Burma and I have seen and heard the peoples wants to be free. They are scared and proud. They are scared of their government and what might happen to them if they show open contempt of that government and, they are very proud of their country and what it means to them both tribally and nationally. What we need to do, as a global community, is not to forget in a month what is happening right now in Burma and realize that this has been going on for more than 20 years now. If there is going to be change it is going to have to be us that brings about that change. China doesn’t want change and that is probably the best chance, politically, we have right now. We are going to have to rely on the information coming out of Burma, however sparse it may be, and realize that this is a big problem. Let us take this information and educate as many people as we can about this problem and then, just maybe, something good will happen to the Burmese. Children and women are mere slaves in most parts of this country. Poverty is rampant. Education is poor, that is, if you are even lucky enough to get an education. Amongst all of this the Burmese are a beautiful people. They are very open and kind. They are friendly and giving, but most importantly they are humble. They need OUR help! So quit talking about the UN and how ineffective their policies are and remember that today eight people died in Burma, five of them were monks, during a peaceful pro-democracy protest. They weren’t killed by citizens opposing democracy they were killed by their government for wanting a democracy. Something they should have had more than

Okay, so everybody here thinks that the UN is an incompetent group of self centered politicians. Good, I agree. Now lets move on to what is important. People are dieing in Burma for what they believe in! They are dying for what most of us here have: freedom of speech, freedom of press, and most importantly freedom from fear of their government. I have been to Burma and I have seen and heard the peoples want to be free. They are scared and proud. They are scared of their government and what might happen to them if they show open contempt of that government and, they are very proud of their country and what it means to them both tribally and nationally. What we need to do, as a global community, is not to forget in a month what is happening right now in Burma and realize that this has been going on for more than 20 years now. If there is going to be change it is going to have to be us that brings about that change. China doesn’t want change and that is probably the best chance, politically, we have right now. We are going to have to rely on the information coming out of Burma, however sparse it may be, and realize that this is a big problem. Let us take this information and educate as many people as we can about this problem and then, just maybe, something good will happen to the Burmese. Children and women are mere slaves in most parts of this country. Poverty is rampant. Education is poor, that is, if you are even lucky enough to get an education. Amongst all of this the Burmese are a beautiful people. They are very open and kind. They are friendly and giving, but most importantly they are humble. They need OUR help! So quit talking about the UN and how ineffective their policies are and remember that today eight people died in Burma, five of them were monks, during a peaceful pro-democracy protest. They weren’t killed by citizens opposing democracy they were killed by their government for wanting a democracy. Something they should have had more than

This country ought to just pull in all of it's many troops. Stop giving aid. And stop loaning money to all of you. And say flock you! See how damned long it was before half of the world was crying in their beer. Run your mouths, bad mouth all you want.
We are still one of the best damned Democracy's, and the biggest giver in the world.
You people and especially the Americans who are always crying about our dirty deeds, need to grow up. This is a mean old world and if you ain't tough you will join the Burmese monks in a repressive state that is no longer governed by elected officials. If you don't know what that means it is because you have you head stuck up your......
Scotland and America today, Scotland and America tomorrow, Scotland and America Forever!

come on help , i have been building orphanages in burma and schools now for 5 years we have had inflation of 50 pecent a year, concrete tax, timber tax , you name it we have been thown it we just catch it and work out how to get round it, i am one person who has managed with the help of friends to feed and educate over 3500 kids , if i can do that just think what you can do, come on help , i am a one woman charity and we make a difference come on help.

It's long past time that Russia, and China in particular, stopped propping up the brutal and repressive military regime in Burma. However, there is nothing to stop every other country bringing in total sanctions against them while we are waiting for these two dictatorships to make up their minds.

How long must this go on? How many people have to be gaoled or killed before the rest of the world steps up to the plate?

what, no action from the un ,and many people are surprised. the un has not functioned since the day it started. it is an expensive elite organisation, its main function is to provide employment for"diplomats" who lack diplomacy.close the damned organisation down and save the money.
for some time the yanks have been pilloried for their actions worldwide , but they are no worse than the other superpowers, who look after their own interests no matter what it costs others

10. GalacticCannibal, Murrieta, CA

"My country the US pays 75% of total cost to keep the UN in business. "

This is interesting. Would you please supply some reference to this data? Thanks.

So, what should be done to the UN to improve it? Remove the veto rights of the powerful at the SC?

#19 the un is not able to be improved each country is looking out only for their own best iterests and as i have said above that is not only the usa.
the un spouts against racism for example , however, many groups at the un are racist, many of the pronouncements at the un on racism are not well founded, it claims special indigenous rights for some groups for example, when all groups who are citizens of one country should be treated the same.
get rid of the un . i dont know exactly what the usa pays towards the running of the un but it is certainly more than a fair share

#6. Edward. Lie most SNP supporters, you were against the Iraq war. Why do you want to attack Burma? Iraq was run by a much harsher dictator who based himself on Stalin.

To be honest unless there is a change of heart within the junta, the only thing that is going to change things is a US invasion. That won't happen because of China. China doesn't like monks/culties overthrowing governments and it certainly won't want the US on its western border. Burma also gives China access to the Indian Ocean. I predict a lot of hand-wringing and pathetic attempts at raising Burma's 'profile' such as on-line petitions. This will not influence the junta for a second as they have been doing as they please for 20 years and they can always rely on the Chinese.

China is heavily involved with the Burmese junta.

Tickets for the Beijing Olympics anyone.........................

#17. You're another anti-Iraq war SNP loony wanting the world to do 'something'. Under an SNP government, Scotland wouldn't have an army - never mind one that could take on the Chinese.

Well, you can either give up entirely, like #22 Royster, or you can do what very little one individual can do and sign the petition in support of the Burmese people.

Here is the petition to the Chinese government and the UN Security Council members. Additional signatures are sent every day:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/stand_with_burma/h.php/?cl=20589433

25. Slioch, Scottish Highlands

Terrific effort and great webpetition.

Unfortunately the Communist Chinese will not be moved and the UN are worthless in action.

GC

24. Royster

Sir.

Its the British Army ...NOT the Scottish Army

Never heard of a Scottish Army in past 100 years.

Stop dreaming please.

GC

Well China is starting to ban all sexually suggestive advertisements

#27 GC

He wasnt saying anything about a Scottish Army...all he said was

"under an SNP Government Scotland wouldnt have an army"

If you htink he needs to stop dreaming then you need to wake up......and stop squawking

#24 Royster , you say that "Under a SNP goverment
Scotland wont have an army". Are you really so badly miss-informed ?

The Chinese are the key to this, and there is very little any country can do in the short term. An Olympic boycott would exert some pressure, and couldn't be vetoed by anyone. The Chinese have a lot riding on 2008 being a success. A united boycott
would at least be a start.

#25 Slioch, trying to log on to petition site but keep being told an error has occured.

Anyone from Australia & in particular Melb. reading this there is a demo at 5pm tomorrow starts at the Melb. Town Hall - walk to the State Library.

#24 Royster,Hull
Get back in your padded cell!
First Im not an SNP supporter, so perhaps you should stop painting everyone that supports independence as a 'SNP Supporter'. I actually supported the invasion of Iraq, something that I now regret!
Secondly this situation is a bit above party politics and we should all be supportive of th Burmese people.
IF Scotland had been Independent, I would damn well hope that it would have the balls to take action, with or without support from other countries. If a people like the Burmese are being down trodden and treted this way, we should be in there

Burma - We certainly don't need another war not just because of all the killing and suffering but because it always makes countries more difficult to rebuild. And economic sanctions only hurt the people and enrichen the regime (see Iraq etc). Diplomacy, tied aid and supporting development of civic society is the more difficult, longer but more peaceful, robust and effective method to bring about change.

There are a lot of misconceptions posted here about the UN.

The UN was created post WWII to be an instrument of foreign policy for the US, China, UK, France and Russia.

During the cold war it's powers were severely weakened by the Veto rule.

Post cold war we have seen some progress. However, attempts to refrom the UN and make it more democratic have been undermined principaly by the US but also the other Security Council powers too.

In fact, the permanent members of the security council need the UN to further their economic interests.

Within the UN at the operational level there are thousands of people trying to help hundreds of developing countries with all sorts of environmental, health and development issues. Thier efforts are often hamstrung by the political leaderships of the big 5. Some comments here are an insult to those hard working people.

The West has the power to change the UN to make it more democratic but it will not share its power.

We should not throw out the baby with the batch water, we need real UN reform.

#31 Ananurhing
The problem with the Chinese and the Russians is that they have been supplying the regime with aircarft and weapons (as has the French), you just have to look up Myanmar Air Force in Wikipedia and you see ita all Chinese and Russian equipment

Do any of our American freinds know if Halliburton
are still operating in Burma?, orm have they finally been forced out.

#34
Erhm..no
It would be helpful if India and the Thailand got themselves involved, perhaps a joint military action
That way the west is kept out as would be the Russians and Chinese and would be more acceptable. Perhaps even a force from Australia
The regime cant be that hard to knock over militarily

Do we really care? This is just news; entertainment on your TV. Easily displaced by 5p on a litre of petrol or a cow with a blue tongue.

Quick schedule a meeting in order to discuss this fully. Then arrange a few meetings and conference calls to discuss the wording of any response. Then schedule some more meetings to ratify that before a further few meetings until the world forgets about this.

The Burmese generals are a set of scumbags - pressure should be put on the Chinese government (who supplies them) to make them toe the line.

#10.. wrong...wrong..so very wrong in your remark that "my country the US pays 75% of the cost of the UN"....the US which is my country too, has been deliquent in its payments to the UN for years and the former Secretary General even asked the Security Council to place sanctions against its voting priviledges.

#10

"My country the US pays 75% of total cost to keep the UN in business. The US Congress should pull the money rug from this sad and useless organization."

Not true - the US doesn't actually pay the money they are meant to - at present the US owes the UN over $1.3 billion.

Interesting how many people accuse the UN of not acting in defense of Burmese monks and other acts of agression yet are silent on the issue of Aboriginal Rights. My people have made numerous appeals to the UN.
To #10.. the US is a violater of Native Land Claim Agreements and has never paid its way in the UN, currently owing billions.

I was just getting used to Myanmar and now it's Burma again!! What's it aw aboot eh?

#15 Trade Wind...Democracy is not a word I would attach to the US and believing that the US is a giver could almost be coupled to create an oxymoron.
The United States has been deliquent in payments to the UN for many years which irritated Mr Gorbachev (sic?) who did manage to wrest a sort of apology/promise from Mr Reagan who fell asleep thinking about it.

#41 Edward.

I know but I still think invasion or even sanctions would create bigger problems. In Iraq things were pretty bad under Hussein but look at it now. It would have been better to contain him and continue diplomatic pressure than the holocaust we have there now.

I stand by my comments to keep but reform the UN but acknowledge that it can do nothing much here until it is refromed.

We need serious diplomatic pressure from all other countries in the region maybe via ASEAN and support for civic society within the country.

37# Edward
The point I was making is that without Chinese support, the Myanmar regime would have disappeared a long time ago. If the U.N.S.C. can't, won't act, what can the rest of the world do?
Even a serious threat to boycott the Olympics, would bring considerable pressure to bear.
The genie is out of the bottle now, and a threatened boycott would polarise the burmese peoples plight, in the eyes of the rest of the world, and perhaps even assist in bringing about longer term change.
The problem now is as expressed by 40# Sinnerman, people can simply change channels to watch something more molifying. Like "reality" TV.

#47 I'm hearin ya AJ!

AJ

Wheres that photie??? :-D

Magic ma pal,

Canny release the Joanna photie, she kens where a live!!! Plus ye canny burn yer bridges wi' a wumin like that!!;)

Magic, ye'll hae tae hae a look on the East Fife story, the Sons of William are biting big time!!!:D

On topic - it's an awfy wey o' daein', this Burma hing, is it no?

AJ

You can burn anything providing you gie it enough heat :)...al hae a squint at the East Fife story the noo buddy.

On topic - Aye this Burma hing is like :-I

Magic,

A couple of nice posts there neebs!!! Rich pickings might be had, right enough!!:D

On topic - Those Bhuddist lads widnae herm a flea!

AJ

In reply to your on topic statement nah they widnae. Just goes to show how repressive these regimes are especially if influenced by China. As i said in ma earlier post China is beginning to ban all sexually suggestive adverts i.e TV, Billboards even internet probably....kin ye imagine the uproar here if that happened?? lol

The Chinese are already cracking doon on the internet....that's in direct contrast tae cracking wan aff like us!!:D

Seriously, China is gonna be a big big problem in the years ahead, their sphere of influence extends all round the globe, particularly in Africa and S.E. Asia!!!

AJ #57 Why do you invisage China being a future big problem ?.

The situation there must be pretty dire. It's almost unheard of for Bhuddist Monks to involve themselves in protest.

#58 There's loads of them and they make aw oor toys with poison paint!!! That's a vulnerable situation if you ask me!

Not to mention, potential conflict with the US over Taiwan and North Korea!!! btw it takes two to tango with regards to that!!

Amazing that it's taken so long for the UN to get involved. Then again so many of their member states have been selling arms to Burma for a long time.

Particularly the UK, specifically Scotland, notably this company. Of course we can claim this has nothing to do with us as these vehicles are sold on to third parties who in turn sell them to the Generals.

http://www.penman.co.uk/subdivisions.asp?c=3&s=9

Here's the specifics on what the Generals 4x4's can survive.

http://www.penman.co.uk/subdivisions.asp?c=1&s=4

#32. Number 6, Where am I

Sorry, Number 6, I've been away.

I've just tried logging on to the Burma petition site and it works for me. Try putting "Burma petition Avaaz" into Google - that works for me as well. If that doesn't work either maybe the settings on your browser are set at too secure a level.

17. Guga II, Rockall

How's the wee willy?

Number six - try www.avaaz.org

#59: High ... Head: Yet another human being taken in by the Western view of Eastern Buddhism. Kind veggies, living a dedicated life of modest contemplation, spurning the trappings of Western living.

Get real. Educate yourself.

For those that claim the US owes the UN, this may help to explain why:

Under the current assessment scale for the U.N. regular budget:

The top eight contributors are assessed 71.1 per­cent of the regular budget in 2007.

The U.S. is assessed 22 percent of the $4.174 bil­lion 2006–2007 biennial regular budget (about $459 million per year).[47]

The combined assessment of the 128 countries with the lowest assessment—two-thirds of Gen­eral Assembly members—is a paltry 0.919 per­cent of the U.N. regular budget. In other words, the U.S. pays over 22 times their combinedreg­ular budget assessment, yet these 128 countries have the power to approve budget increases over the objection of the U.S.[48]

The 54 countries with the lowest U.N. regular budget assessment in 2007 (0.001 percent of the U.N. regular budget) pay just under $21,000 per year.
The assessment scale for the U.N. peacekeeping budget, while based on the regular budget assess­ment, is even more skewed:

The top eight contributors are assessed 77.6 percent of the peacekeeping budget for 2007.

The U.S. pays 25 percent of the $5.246 billion peacekeeping budget ($1.311 billion) and is assessed 26.0864 percent for 2007 ($1.368 billion).

The 128 lowest-paying countries pay a minus­cule 0.232 percent of the peacekeeping budget.

The 35 countries with the lowest peacekeeping assessment (0.0001 percent) pay just over $5,000 per year.[49]

These numbers don't include any of the assistance the US provides on their own to various UN missions worldwide.

Do your research, then decide.

No condemnation from the un.....Give them time- this is a toughie--for their condemnation to be evoked they have to work out some way to tie in Israel

Yes, there should have been something done a long time age.

Some suggested that the global community take action and they meant military action. The same ones that scream and holler against Iraq. Some say that the US should take action. We took action against a brutal dictator and we are being hated for that action, mostly by the same persons that want us to take action in Burma. I could suggest that a peace keeping force from the UN do it but we all know what the result would be.

How about some other country take care of it, like the big empire called France. If Germany would do it then that would show that they really threw the shackles of Hitler and are willing to save another country from suffering under one. Better yet hope that Clinton wins the election, she will know how to handle it.

Remember the miners struggle to protect their livelyhood to ensure their families would live a half-decent way of life? Our establishment police were brought from every corner of the UK at unlimited cost for what reason? In order to protect our mining communities or to ensure one of the most despicable women of the the 20th century (now a trusted friend of Brown and his wife) could use every known vile trick in the book, to destroy their Union and thir families way of life.
We even had some of our humane UK policemen dressed in jeans to imitate miners throwing stones -supposedly to attack their own police personnel in order to discredit the miners!
Do you remember the hunger marches in the thirties when near starving unemployed from the North of Scotland to the South of England decided to descend upon London to protest about their miserable way of life and their dreadful existence? Do you remember how our humane establishment then, decided to use many of the same brutal tactics being used by many countries world wide today in the 21st century to deal with such genuine protest movements?
Where did most of these regimes learn how to deal with such protest movements?
From those who persistently interfere in the affairs of other countries where they wish to establish stooge elements who'll do as they are told; or else!
What would happen in our own free and democratic country if, the students decided to converge on London and hold protest gatherings for over a period of 7 to 10 days and brought the whole of London to a standstill? Would Brown's New Labour socialists be there with their banners too welcome them, or would they arrange for the same welcome our unemployed received during the thirties when brutally attacked in many parts of the country on their way down south? You wouldn't need to be particularly clever, to guess what the outcome would be?
One only needs to listen and watch to the most biased UK media coverage carefully tail

#70

You had some good points until that last sentence - lets hope that one doesn't happen.

Very interesting to contrast the protest of the Buddists and the protest of the Muslims!

Perhaps its time for our leaders to take a long look at the wisdom of Buddism.

#68 They don't actually pay the 22% though!!!

Latest figures show that the USA owes the UN in the region of $1.3 Billion because it does not make full payments.

#46 Stonefish: How true! We have been protesting for years against the dead hand of DIA. Where was the UN condemnation at the death of Dudley George? Where was the UN condemnation at the deaths of Aboriginal men, taken to the Saskatoon city limits, and left to freeze to death in -30 winter weather? Where is the UN condemnation regarding the untold number of deaths of our Aboriginal women in Canada's cities? UN? Union of necrophiliacs is more like it.

The UN does not give a damn about the little folk. Sure it can feed them, but it will not do anything to make positive change in their lives. Witness Burma!

#73

Why would you think that?? Have you seen a Monk strap himself with explosives recently??

Suddenly this is important? This has been going on since 1962. For those of you who are suggesting military answers let me remind you of the last time the West interfered in SE Asia ala Vietnam.

By the way slavery is alive and well in Burma and we have Western corporations making big bucks there. Perhaps our governments could clamp down on those profiting in Burma and that could effect change in their governments policies of brutality.

3 Most of them have a definite agenda. I'll sum it up in one word, "appropriations."

15 I don't know what to tell you. The current government in the US is a mess, Britain too by the way. Yes, I'd take them over Mugabe and other thug governments around the world, but I'll criticize them till my last breath or until they actually start representing the wishes of their PEOPLE not their lobbyists, pacs, and campaign contributers.

#74

They did for many years, now it is time for a change. Why should the US pay more than every other country, just because they have the money to do so? Too many other countries sitting on vast wealth and not pulling their weight. It is equivalent to the children of the family voting themselves a larger allowance from their parents and the parents have no say in the matter.

57Nomad: right you are. Blame every thing in President Bush, as if he orchestrated the Myanmar military dictatorship.

Not a peep from the UN, since their attention is focused completely on Palestinian terrorists, whom the UN continues to see as some kind of oppressed minority. Even in their own territories, the Palestinians, not able to kill Israelis, quickly fall to killing each other.

But a military junta opening fire on Buddhist monks? That gets a big Ho-Hum from the UN. After all, they aren't muslims. They're only Buddhists, so who cares?

#10 I'd remind you of the Glasgow company Burmah Oil, which dominated the early Oil industry. So named because of the huge oil deposits it found in Burma.

They operated in Burma until nationalised in 1963.

Burmah became Burmah-Castrol and are now part of BP.

Echoes of Darfur.

#77
No never. Buddists believe all life is precious. Wouldn't it be fabulous if our leaders agreed and made decisions based on this belief.

26. GalacticCannibal, Murrieta, CA

Numpty!

#44, # 45, #46,

No outright condemnation from UN after soldiers kill monks in Burma
------------------------------------------------------
You threesome are indeed correct.

But the US still pays the greatest % to sustain the UN boondoggle.

And when our Government owes money they always pay it sooner or later and with interest.

And in addition to the actual cash we give the UN . We spend $billions on troops all over the world to protect others . Because they are either incapable or too stingy to pay for their own protection.

The classic example is 50,000 US troops in Korea for the past 50 years. The US pays for that . The UN pays nothing.

There is no OIL in Korea, but there is a communist tyranical Gov in the North . Just like in China where Dragohhead lives.

GC

84. thatscottishwoman 3, freehootyman is boring / 6:39pm 27 Sep 2007

You wrote:
26. GalacticCannibal, Murrieta, CA

Numpty!
----------------------------------------------------

Why the name calling ?

Is that the best you can do?

GC

#85

"The classic example is 50,000 US troops in Korea for the past 50 years. The US pays for that . The UN pays nothing."

How much does South Korea pay towards those troops? Is it more or less than $500 million per year?

What do you really expect from China. They use tanks to suppress dissent. And Russia. They send agents to poison dissenters abroad. Both criminal states. This is a humanitarian issue.

Why does this religious Pharisee Brown stop his hypocritical comments to other nations about their wrongs and so-called evils and belt up?
This mouldy mouthpiece who has been part instrumental for the almost complete destruction of the once sovereign nation of Iraq without even a declaration of war and almost a million of its innocent population which includes approx' a quarter of a million of its children, should be the last person to lecture other nations about morality and ethics. If the UN was a genuine instrument for peace and stability on our planet instead of being
a grovelling tool off the depraved US, the cruellest and most destructive nation off the 20th - 21st century, our lives would once more be something to look forward too on planet earth. And if they had operated on behalf off genuine freedom and democracy; both the leaders of the US and the UK would have found themselve in front off the international court of justice a long, long while ago.

#87- Selgovae- GC has a good point. A very good point. And another... How many humanitarian missions has the US done around the world? Countless. How many times have we provided aid to countries in need? Probably more than your country.

Let me just get this clear Wattie... You're saying the country of Iraq, before US invaded was a "sovereign nation"... Hm... And I'm supposed to take anything else you say seriously? You sound like Iran's Pres denying the Holocaust ever happened.

What's needed is to shut down the existing UN entierly.

If the 'Third World' and the nutter states want to go off and create their own 'UN' somewhere; fine - have at it.

In the meantime, the coutries that amount to anything need to form a new union of LIKE-MINDED nations; who subscribe to a certain set of standards and criteria. That will effectively exclude the useless country's that see no need to improve their behaviour with respect to the freedoms they afford the individual, the press, support and promotion of terrorism, etc.

And, it would be best if this new 'UN' would establish itself in the neutral ground of the internet and not be seated in one partiicual country - with administrative and executive offices spread around all member states in proprortion to their contribution, which may be changed every 20 years or so.

Unwelcome (in their present form) would be the likes of (in no particular order) China, Cuba, Burma, Viet-Nam, S. Arabia, Zimbabwe, Syria, Iran, N. Korea, Venezuala, Sudan, Somalia, Russia, Libya, Egypt, for example.

These countries would certainly have the chance to join, if they wished, but only after they demonstated a commitiment over time to acceptable behaviour.

We are long overdue for a change in the current disfunctional and totally corrupt UN 'animal', which long ago ceased to have any real relevence in the world.

#85..At the San Francisco Conference in 1945 the delegates from the USSR, China, United States, France and Great Britain (UK) supported the motion made by Harold McMillan GB (UK) to form an alliance whose purpose was to provide World Peace through World Law. This simple and humane principle was aborted over three days of discussion when it became obvious that the two superpowers (to be) had no interest in sharing when the US delegate Byrnes blatantly announced that the US would not agree to anything beyond their Constitution and immediately Vishinsky demanded the same for the USSR. The Security Council was formed and set up the rules of admission for other nations who would wish (sic) to join this exclusive club. The first test was given to the UN when North Korean forces crossed into the south and General McArthur and his blustering egotism deployed US troops in a state of war without first seeking fledgling UN approval. The USSR and China both claimed support for the terrirorial right of the North and at that moment the idea of a UN Charter took a failing grade. France, the UK and its Commonwealth agreed to send troops to support a "police action" and China reinforced it's border to Korea and the USSR supplied North Korea with MIG aircraft. So much for World Peace through World Law. McArthur actuall wanted to drop another atomic bomb but Mr Truman was fast to fire him and subsequently the North Koreans and the South Koreans set lines of demarcation to which all players agreed. Not everyon went home. South Korea's president asked the "UN" Force to remain but this was not to be, however the US who was equally as paranoid as the South Korean president chose to stay and have been there ever since. Now it costs the US to keep troops in South Korea but not as much as it would cost to keep them at home; the South Korean Government pays 61cents on every dollar for their what seems to be permanent vacation. The US is a wealthy country on paper but in

#93 - I think it is just damn good military strategy to have bases in South Korea.

#90 busybee

Good point or not, he frequently fills his posts with "facts" that he has clearly never checked out. Whatever view you take, it kind of muddies the discussion.

"Probably more than your country."

You're probably right. But I'm a bit of an Americaphile, so I'm biased. :-)

Selgovae... A lot of people here fill their discussion with facts that can come from less than trustworth resources, biased sites... ect. And also, information is only as good as the amount you seek out, and well, there's a lot more out there. A lot of stuff that isn't available to the normal ho-hum Bob searching the web (no offense to Bobs out there), so I understand that much...
Americaphile... that's new. I love my country. Not because of Bush... but because I look around and realize how good I have it. The opporunity, the different people and cultures, and the good that exists. Oh, it's not perfect, and we could argue till global warming takes over... But after this, it will just be something else to blame and hate and argue about...

#92 Conan

"We are long overdue for a change in the current disfunctional and totally corrupt UN 'animal'"

The UN was set up for the sole purpose of giving people around the world something to be angry about and divert attention from the activities of their own governments. OK, that's a pile of bollocks, but that's what it sometimes seems like. This "animal" has an annual operating budget of something like 1% of the UK's public expenditure. And you expect to get world peace for that? We can't even get hip operations.

(By the way, I see you are posting from Craighouse these days. You do know it's now houses a university? I just mentioned it in case you thought those lectures on Pre-Raphaelite Geometry were a new kind of therapy.)

Anyone got any practical suggestions for helping these Burmese monks beyond dropping bombs and signing petitions? All I can think of right now is offering cash to members of the Burmese Armed Forces who go AWOL.

86. GalacticCannibal, Murrieta , CA

Technically you are a numpty, why waste precious space going into details?

#96 busybee

"But after this, it will just be something else to blame and hate and argue about..."

That's the price of success, I guess. I'm no fan of your current government's foreign policies. But I'm no fan of most governments. (They're not there to be loved.) But your country's contribution to science and human knowledge over the last 100 years or so is vast and everlasting. I'm grateful.

Selgovae- See, you're not so much an Americanphile... more like a Governmentalphile? Heck, you're a concerned citizen of the world. Sounds good.

#100 busybee

I checked my dictionary to be sure. I think you got the wrong meaning of Americaphile. Think of "audiophile" and so on.

After al , if the condemned Burma for human rights abuses they would have to condemn the worlds worst international criminals and human rights abusers, the USA, and we could not have that, could we?

98. Victory Bikes, UK

Question 1.

Why the name calling?,
which is nothing more that a crude substitute for an argument.

Question 2

What space do you mean?

The space between my ears or your ears.

GC

#97 - that's Craighouse, Jura - until tomorrow when I'm off to Moffat

#93 Virgil. Good analysis! I did my doctorial thesis on the UN with a special sub-text on the Korean insurgence. Still can't bring myself to totally define war. For years there has been an undercurrent of protest over the stationing of US troops. Recent student protests have also called for Yankee Go Home and in February past I was on business there and found that this undercurrent is flowing fast in business circles too. The figure I was given is that every dollar that the US spends costs Korea 68cents. You say 61cents, close enough. Americans have to stop believing their own propoganda and start challenging their government on the multitude of lies that they spew.

103. GalacticCannibal, Murrieta, CA

If you have nothing important to add that is on topic just go away.

98. Victory Bikes, UK

Well said.

#93 - Virgil - I understand that with such a name, you may feel compelled to speak at length - however, for our sake, please try to be brief.

105 - My word, what an outpouring of academic objectivity! Glad you are not my prof!

But then again, hopefully no place of higher learning has given you a soapbox.

105 - Good analysis!! What freaking planet are you from?

You are a disgrace if you pretend to call yourself an academic.

30 years ago I was wisely advised by an eminent professor, when I was studying for my MA , that I should never trust a teacher who resorts to hyperbole in support of their argument.

Virgil and Astarte - you are entitled to your opinion but I fervently hope that you both are not in positions of authority - as in teaching.

ir k

No 27, the 'Scottish Army' was the contingencies of soldiers from Scotland who were sent in first for any war that Britain ever had...First to the US in the late 1700's, and first over the Rhine in 1940 odds. They got the dirty part of the bargain, and aquitted themselves very well indeed. Even in 1745, the Scottish clans who were government troops were sent to the south of England, in case of a French attack. Where have you been Laddie?....

#111

Take it from me, more Scots in the American Colonies kicked British arse than Scots who defended the Crown in the late 1770's. I'd bet my US History degree on that. In fact, if it weren't for those wonderful Scots, we might just be flying the Maple Leaf here rather than the Stars and Stripes - which is a design that incorporates English and Scottish elements.

36#>>United Nations originally when set-up was a conn to ensure the post war era would be a tool off the West against the Soviet Union and the emerging of a strong New China as a future world force to be reckoned with.
Those responsible made sure having France included
(who played a very minor role in the second world war) that the West would have a permanent majority on the Security Council where they would use the veto to suit their own ends, and now it remains as an ineffective blunt tool today. If it had been set-up as a genuine toool of freeedom and democracy then, our world today in the year 2007 would be e much more happy and safe place to rear our families in peace and happiness.

#108;#109 & #110, Dunnie. Since hyperbole is a rhetorical figure which produces a vivid impression by extravagant and obvious exaggeration, I am at a loss to find the texture or myth of "your eminent professor's wise advice" any place in the content of your dismay over the posts of Virgil and Astarte. I will not challenge your claim to a Masters scroll but I do most certainly question it by the written behaviour you demonstrate in your unseemly remarks. Post #108 indicates that you have low attention span; post # 109 reflects a hostility towards academia and post #110 only reinforces this premise and indicates a failure in academic pursuit veneered by a fictitious MA. I believe this is called HYPERBOLE. Virgil and Astarte do not deserve to be insulted for producing intelligent substance into this discussion, only for the obvious reason that you fail to grasp its texture. How can you dare to make false claim to having ever delivered a dissertation?

A sound academic does not use "obvious exaggeration" to inform - especially when it is used to support an opinion disguised as fact.

So enough of your pedantry and pomposity.

Also, I've delivered 3 dissertations.

So, go back up to the ramparts of your ivory tower and the dark recesses of wee mind.

#115 Dunnie : The grandiose you display has inducted you to the place of claims where Annlass #114 suspects you belong. I now have to support the premise of the last sentence of her posted comment. To both Virgil and Astarte's posts, true academia would have offered intelligent opinion to the content however your venomous response was not only an attack on them but also on your own misgivings. Whatever the cause (s) for your failure, they have made you insecure. Do try to overcome them and behave, listen to those who respond to your vindictive and you may learn.

#47 AJ

"I was just getting used to Myanmar and now it's Burma again!! What's it aw aboot eh?"

So right! It has to do with the political correctness of the country or group at time the story was written.

Ten or fifteen years ago, some Indians in the northwest, to celebrate their history, paddled out in their canoes and killed a whale. The US press always uses the nonsensical term "Native American" when talking about Indians. Not this time, they killed a whale and were immediately reduced back to 'Indian' in all the reporting. I speculated at the time that if they killed another whale they would be referred to as 'thievin' redskins.'

Florenz - Get stuffed! Is that less grandiose?

#105 and #114 ... please let this matter end. It started when Dunnie requested that my future posts be brief, well I am too old and too wise to let brevity foreshadow content and in the subsequent exchanges between him and both of you (now I read that someone else has joined the fray #116) a caustic line was drawn and Dunnie has responded with the limited tools in his bag, recognize this and be humble. I have survived in a bloody war and in the many faculties where I met the wrath of students. I did not, as you did, respond to Duthie's remarks, I immediately dismissed them, so please do the same and let this matter end. I'm much too old for frivolity but yet I allow myself to enter a low plain of debate (sic) it's the teacher in me.

Virgil -

In my postings, I never claimed to be an academic.

Read my initial postings again.

I took exception to certain statements - read your last sentence in your initial posting and that of 105's.

Both display bias and in 105's case - a rather disturbing one.

I also felt that the case or perspective was shallow being based on one particular or sole (pardon the pun) example. And based on that single example- you claim that the "US is not paying its way"

You dislike frivolity (as you seem to view my comments as frivolous).

I dislike bias passed off as informed insight or the product of sound academic insight.

Re-read my 115 posting. It was directed more at posting 105 than you.

I also took exception to the implication that I am at best a poseur and at worst, a liar. (That is why I responded the way I did in posting 118). Not to mention your "Dunnie has responded with the limited tools in his bag" comment.

I simply was put off by the pompous tone, pedantry and the overt anti-Americanism displayed in posting 105.

If someone is going to join in on these threads and make inflammatory statements then they should have the fortitude and honesty to stay the course.

But then you just might incur wrath. However, that can be summarily dismissed.

Hope things are well in British California.

Oh well, seems like the enlightened ones aren't coming out to play on this one.

Would have loved to have had a debate about some of the "facts" presented.

However, I suppose their attitude is perhaps typical of those who believe they opine on a different plane (no sic, Virgil).