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There are still far too many people in positions of power in this country, who would do anything to prevent the promotion of Scotland. Our national flag is something we should be proud of.This is the link to the petition. Let your voice be heard & show these numpties what people power is all about.
http://www.petitiononline.com/saltire/
The former SNP council must have been particularly annoying to provoke the new administration to do this. Right enough, there weren't many councils that the SNP actually LOST in the elections.
Still, the people have spoken, and all that!
They blame the SNP for flag debates, and their trying their best to cause a stooshie. LOL you gotta laugh at them. Hows about flying the other flag when another flag pole becomes available instead of demoting the scottish flag to second place?
Oh thats labfibtory policy for you, Scotland in second place!
Just what you'd expect from the New Labour Numpty Party and the idiot Whigs. Not only do they want to replace the Saltire, but they want to fly a flag with the English lion passant on it. They really are carrying their unionist tendencies too far.
The obvious solution to the problem, on the assumption that these numpties ignore the wishes of the people, is to boot them out at the next election, and make sure they are never elected again.
My advice to the good people of Angus:
Fly the Saltire from your windows. That'll show these muppets.
Haha, thats great, see where petty nationalism takes you?
Flags are rags and like religions represent the latent evil side of human kind. Death, Destruction,Control.
GC
They are however obliged to fly the Union Flag on certain days no matter which party is in power.
That is a very busy flag.
Independence for Angus!
Have they nothing more important to discuss in Angus? What about working to improve local services, etc. Even if they are good they can always be improved.
#2"Still, the people have spoken, and all that!"
Gnasher - the idea came from the non-elected Chief Executive and was voted in favour by a coalition of Labour, LibDems and independents. Can you confirm that that all the coalition members stood for election on a manifesto commitment to take down the saltire?
Der Fuherer Broon has probably instructed his Labour Stormtroopers to remove the ‘Saltire’ and Fly the ‘Jack’ wherever they can gain control.
Still, as long as when England bid for the FIFA World cup for 2014 ‘Broon’ nose - reminds the FIFA organisation this is Britian, so some games will be held in Scotland, Wales and N.I. as well.
Oooh, perhaps this will create problems - just like the whole Union affair has for the last 400 years. Heh Heh!
oops forgot to mention the Labour Cooncillors in Angus were probably just a wee bit to scared to fly the Union Jack in place o’ the Saltire eh ?
The Saltire, along with the national flag of Denmark, is one of the oldest national banners in the world, and preceded the Cross of St, George and St. Patrick by hundreds of years.The majority of national flags are all recent inventions, including the Union Flag, the French and Italian Tricolours, the Bundesflag of the German Federal Republic, and the U.S. Stars and Stripes.Yet, a Scottish local authority appears to be so indifferent to the history of it's people that it proposes to remove the Cross of St. Andrew from council flagpoles?
Surely when part of a country decides unilaterally to fly a flag which only represents that part rather than the flag which represents the whole, thats a good thing ? I see nothing wrong in a "majority government" in Forfar emulating a "minority government" in Edinburgh.
See....thats what happens when you dont vote SNP
"More than 1,200 angry local residents have signed an online petition objecting to the plan"
Actually it would seem that very few are genuinely Angus council tax payers - how curious !
It is traditional for Unionist Labourites to lower the Saltire and raise the Butcher's Apron Brownie flag when they take a Cooncil from the SNP.
East Lothian and in particular Athelstanford should patent an copywrite the saltire.It's time!
Axe the saltire? What about the Council Tax freeze?
It shows where Labour and the Lib Dems loyalty lies and it's not to Scotland, I'm surprised they didn't go the whole hog and try to replace it with the Union Jack.
Some of you muppets don't have clue - blaming the Labour Party when they only have two councillors in Angus!!!
The coalition is made up of 5 Tory, 5 independent, 3 Lib Dem and 2 Labour councillors.
But since when has facts got in the way of the SNP supporters.
No doubt we'll have the crap that they were the biggest party and should have been in power in Angus. That's the line they tried to play in Dundee whilst cynically stitching together deals to keep out the party with the most councillors in Fife, West Dunbartonshire and West Lothian.
#17 What's good for the goose . . .
#25 The SNP leadership may be forward-looking and progressive but you would be hard-pushed to say that about some of their more neanderthal supporters.
AM2
Would you like a hug???
#21 That might raise some awkard questions as to how King Angus who might have died in 760 was involved in a battle which might have been in 832 and quite possibly defeated an "English" King Athelstan who might not have been born until 895 and why the site of the battle which might have happened was named after the "losing" King.
Councillors, you would think, having being voted in by the electorate, are supposed to have at least half a brain. Has nobody told this lot that the Saltire is the flag of the country they are living in, not the flag of any particular political party.
#25"It seems rather a naïve decision"
Correct!
Stop at this point and you have some credibility! Not you............ As usual.
#34 The point is that the saltire does not represent the "corporate identity" (I love these newfangled words) of Angus District Council. I would be most surprised if every council doesn't have its own flag and coat of arms (Wasn't the late lamented Dumbarton District Council flag plain red at one point ?) and they are perfectly entitled to fly them over their buildings. This is basically a bit more mischievous politicking by a party who thought Angus was theirs for keeps.
Yeah well i realised this....i just thought you may have been a tad upset from your ordeal :-)))
The authorities in Scotland (Scotland being part of the UK) wish to give precedence to the flag of Scotland over that of the UK.The authorities in Angus (Angus being part of Scotland) wish to give precedence to the flag Angus over the flag of Scotland.I do not see what the difference is.How does a crowned lion passant from Scotland in the 1100's become the English lion passant which did not have a crown until the 1500's
#38 - Yep. Anyone who doesn't fly the UN flag is basically doing what the Angus council has done.
#38 I suspect that in the same way that the three English "leopards" are derived from two Normandy leopards, the single Angus leopard will have arisen from Norman origins. As heraldry was basically imported from over the channel anyway, it would appear a likely explanation.
#20. Donald, why do you call it a butchers apron? I'm curious to know as I hear it more and more and would like to understand.
Further to my post #24- and maybe something significant for all parties.
Angus is made up of 8 wards - 5 x 4-member wards and 3 x 3-member wards.
The first person elected in 4 of the 8 Angus wards were independents.
In the other 4 wards 2 Tories and 2 SNP councillors were elected first. All 6 independents were in the first two councillors for the 8 wards.
#39 Surely you mean the Federation of Planets flag ? Or is Star Trek made up ?( like diagonal crosses mysteriously appearing in the sky )
#41 Just aping the likes of Sandra White who used the term in 2006 - a term borrowed from the Irish Republican movement.
Sad that symbols of our national identity have become tarnished and diminished by becoming political pawns. The SNP's understandable attempts to make pride in Scotland equal support for the SNPhas changed the meaning of the Saltire. Symbols are important but attempts to give them a fixed meaning is a turn off for many.
Just who the hell are you?
Do you think maybe I should take a trip to Northern Ireland and try telling people there which flag they should choose to fly?
That would make me a presumptious arrogant swine.
What does telling the Scots what flag they should fly make you?
#8
Howdee, Galactic Cannonballs. How goes it in the brain-spillage of your head?
I agree with you. Flags represent all sort of human nastiness. Especially the flags of imperialist fascist empire builders.
This is why I think the union jack should be stripped from every public building in Scotland and replaced with the wholly innocuous and inoffensive Saltire, which is only fitting given that this is, after all, Scotland and the Saltire is the flag of Scotland.
The union jack inspires detestation on a number of counts, don't you agree?
My personal preference would be no flags. Then there'd be no arguments and we wouldn't have to put up with the offensive measures of halfwitted councillors nor the costant reminders of human evil that we see in the union jack.
So, GC, looks like me and you agree.
Happy agreement day!
The Winged One.
You have got to laff at the outraged nats on here. No doubt some of them are the same people who fulminated at Broon and his views on the Union Flag, it being flown over Edinburgh Castle, and all the hoo-ha about the Saltire since May.
Comments were made about how the SNP won the election, so can do what it wants in this area, about how it was anti-democratic to try to stop it etc etc ad nauseam.
Well now the boot is on the other foot. The council in Angus was elected democratically and it is a democratic decision. And the hypocrital or abusive nats can go on with their small minded parochiaiism, turning people away from independence. Nationalsm is not the problem, it is some nationalists.
#44
Sandra White is a rent-a-gob of the first order. If she mouths off about something, you should be supporting the opposite case.
Winged Messanger, remind me to get you an invite to an Armed Forces veterans night out as soon as possible. "imperialist fascist empire builders"? What module in the ONC covered that part? Sounds like George Galloway after having too many E additivies and cat food! Borderline Monty Pythonesque!
You know, you are such a phoney fop. I've read lots of anti-Islamic trash from you with is among the most unhealthy claptrap I-ve read on these boards. And your RUlre Brittanic prejudcises are so bloatewd that they're laughable.
And then you say: "I am shocked at the anger and hatred evident in the petition comments. Are the attitudes that these betray conducive to a healthy, inclusive society?"
What a sanctimonious oaf. Looking at those comments, most of which betray a healthy resentment of stupid councillors making stupid decisions prove a few things, none of which are unhealthy.
They show the wish of Scottish people to establish a Scottish nation which is inclusive of everyone and eveything. I think that's why this idiotic move by the council has inspired so much resentment - because it is a totally devisive measure for which the people of Scotland clearly feel total repulsion.
It also shows that Scots have a love of their country, Scotland, which exceeds the whole bogus Buy into Britain nonsense we get from Brown and unionist fanatics like you.
It shows, above all, a disavowal of the union, which is fast growing in pace and which, while it has always existed, is now manifesting itself in political terms.
Not much you can do about that, which is maybe why your presence is growing less and less around here.
Yet again a rag-tag of parochial individuals get hung-up on flags and the politics of identity; one would think that Labour and the Lib-Dems would have better things to do.
#50
Well, Stan, your knowledge of history is pretty vacant, as the Sex Pistols might say.
Didn't you know that the British Empire was the greatest empire in the whole of modern history?
Didn't you know that the Union Jackass is the flag of the British Empire and everything that remains of it today?
Even though in reality the union jack is perceived as the flag of England. That's why Scottish troops in Iraq prefer to fly the Saltire or the Lion Rampant, so the locals don't mistake them for being English, which is what they think when they see the union jack.
Armed forces, eh. Yeah, Stan, England expects.
AM2 wrote:Are the attitudes that these betray conducive to a healthy, inclusive society?
Probably not, I would imagine that most of the comments on the petition are not of this nature. However, your own many troll like comments are not healthy either.
Furthermore, anyone who trawls through an online petition looking for anything that might confirm his own prejudices should not be lecturing others.
Eh Wrong Winged man, and I think even Stevie Wonder could see that through all the claptrap.As I say, I'll need to get you one of those tickets and you can test your theory out with these soldiers who prefer to fly the Lion Rampant (although I notice you dont mention they are also proud to serve in Her Majesties Armed Services under the UJ but that is more a truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth point which wouldnt be welcome in your "debates"). I do like the juvenile names for the Union flag though.Also love the inference that its English the Iraqis hate and that is why Scotsmen would fly BOTH flags.Oh, and for the record, that is fact.
#55
I've never known a Scottish soldier who was proud to serve HM's blah blah. They were proud of their regiments - you know, the ones that have been obliterated off the face of the earth. But they weren't in the army to serve the union.
I've seen quite a few photos of Scots in Iraq where there was no union jack. Guess that proves you wrong.
#57Firstly I would like to inform you that we are Scots who serve in the Royal Regiment of Scotland Battalions (formally regiments of the Scot Div) with in the British army, we are British soldiers.
I've never known a Scottish soldier who was proud to serve HM's blah blah.
Then you must know very few of us if any.
We like to show our Bn (formally Regt) or Coy flag to show who we are or to show where in the UK we come from, we still serve under the Union flag and we do it with pride.
I wish people like you would stop trying to use us for your petty political bashing of the union.
It won't happen. They wouldn't dare!
#58
Yeah, and I'm the King of Siam.
But, anyway, if you're real you should understand that the whole world regards the Union Flag as the flag of England. They don't see you as British but English.
I don't mean that as an insult to you. Far from it. In fact, I mean it exactly the opposite.
Anything that undermines the Scottish military tradition in such a way disturbs me. There's a military history in my family, so it disturbs me personally.
And I can assure you that you're not being used for petty political bashing of the union. The question of the union is not petty. The question of Scotland retaining its independence is not petty. It matters a hell of a lot.
Now, if you are proud of Britain in the way you say you are then you'll understand me when I say that that's the way I feel about Scotland, and more.
So much so that I want to see Scotland retain its status as a nation in its own right, which is a legitimate claim - which is, in fact, a more legitimate claim to nationhood than an amaglamation of different nations that calls itself by some collective geographical signifier. Like Britain.
#48 Kobi
Problem with your argument is that most of the people of Angus seem to want the Saltire just like the people of Scotland. No inconsistency there.
#59
Oh shut up and go away. I'm not even going to read your post. I already know what it says.
#59 AM2
You can't possibly believe the statistic you quote in 4) can you?
AM Squared. Admit it, you just make up all these statistics as you go along. In any event, you really can't help yourself with showing your Loyalist bias. Once a Loyalist, always a Loyalist and Unionist. You probably want to be buried wrapped in the Butcher's Apron.
#61Yoiu are a complete muppet.
The only difference independence will bring is that we will be shafted by Holyrood instead of Westminster.Now freakin behave yourself.
#68
At least we can keep a better eye on Holyrood up here....and anyway...how would you know???
Muppet!!!!
#69
What do you mean how would i know. Clown
I'd rather be shafted by my own government than a foreign one.
You?
Arguing about flags - don't Scots have more important issues to debate?
#61 "most of the people of Angus seem to want the Saltire"
Evidence please?
SPOT ON #67 !!!
#70
About the difference that Independence would bring
Ya Bent Baffie!!!
The only flag I would raise and fly would be the
SHROOM flag.
A psychedelic world where all people can relax and laugh.
#81 GC
Yeah "psych" meaning "in your head". Fud!!
#62
"Problem with your argument is that most of the people of Angus seem to want the Saltire just like the people of Scotland. No inconsistency there."
1) who asked "the people of Scotland"?
2) who asked "the people of Angus"?
3) in the absence of actually being asked, lets go by the recent election results. For Holyrood, the SNP became the Scottish Executive. For Angus Council, an amalgam of non-SNP councillors became the ruling body. The SNP can do what it chooses where it has powers to do so for buildings under its control. Angus Council, likewise.
4) if you disagree with any of this then you are a hypocrite, who does not believe in democracy, and therefore are a traitor to Scotland.
#83
Read the article:
"The SNP lost control of the council at the May elections when the 15-strong "Angus Alliance", a coalition of Independent, Labour and Liberal Democrat councillors, formed the administration. The SNP has 13 councillors and there is one other Independent member on the authority."
So, it would seem that the SNP have an overhwelming number of councillors representing Angus who were ousted by a mish mash of the other parties.
It would seem that the abuse of democracy has been at the behest of the mish mash parties, none of whom have more council members than the SNP.
Scandolous. And the attempt to downgrade the Saltire is obviously an intentional provocation on the part of an irresponsible bunch of bitter unionist lunatics who are hell bent on causing dischord.
What a betrayal of the people of Angus who are among the strongest supporters of independence in Scotland.
#84
Understand the article.
In the council system we have in Scotland, if you can't muster the votes to defeat a proposal, it goes through. If the SNP had to put a vote for the buildings the Sottish Executive controls to the Scottish Parliament (I understand that they don't), then the SNP would possibly lose that as well.
The SNP lost in Angus. They can't even persuade those who have seen SNP rule at local level to vote for them. Get over it.
#85
The SNP won more councillors in Angus than any other party. This fact seems to elude you.
The other parties have sold themselves out by forming an anti-SNP and now, we see, and anti-Scottish coalition in order to force the party the people voted for out of power.
Now you get over it.
But, anyway, if you're real
I am
you should understand that the whole world regards the Union Flag as the flag of England.
No they don't, saying that only suits your purpose.
They don't see you as British but English.
Again only in your eyes as it suits your purpose.
So you see calling me English as a compliment even though I am Scottish.
The Scottish military tradition as you call it was formed with in the structure of the British army.
I agree the questions of independence or the union are not petty, the way you make quotes of the Scots in the military and the Scottish regiments to try score points over others is.
Herein lies the difference between us, I am proud of being both Scottish and British, You are only proud of being Scottish and that is your choice.I would never consider telling you that I am more proud of being Scottish than you are yet you have just insinuated you are more proud than me.
So much so that I want to see Scotland retain its status as a nation in its own right, which is a legitimate claim
Yes it is but only if the majority feel the same.
- which is, in fact, a more legitimate claim to nationhood than an amaglamation of different nations that calls itself by some collective
Look at this and then come back and talk to me about democracy and who really lost in Angus.
http://www.angus.gov.uk/elections/results.cfm
It makes you wonder whether a system that allows the losers to take power is viable. I don't think so.
The SNP numpties have surpassed themselves!! To condemn a Local Authority who wishes to display it proud roots is surely the height of stupidity. Salmond & co started all this furore over flags, so these numpties decide that only the Saltire may fly; and local pride must be subsumed under the greater will of these numpties? They will be wanting to get rid of Provosts robes next...oh sorry, they are bringing them back in Edinburgh with collusion from those prostitutes of political parties, the Lib Dems.
#25. AM2,: How much time did you spend on that website?
Which comment was yer favourate?
Which comment did you dislike the most?
What are "gimps”?
#87
OK, buddy, let's play.
You are not a soldier. You are a fraud.
If you were a soldier, and you had travelled the world, you would know exactly what it feels like to be called English all the time when, of course, you are not.
I know this because I travel extensively, much more so than you do, it seems.
You might like to think the British army is regarded the world over as British. No it's not. That's a fact that no amount of your wishful thinking can change.
You want proof? OK? I posted this a couple of days ago on these threads. It talks about the English army and how they helped secure the release of the two Italians kidnapped in Afghanistan (do a search typing in "inglese"):
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/09/sezioni/esteri/afghanist...
This article as you can see refers to the British army as the English army more times than it refers to them as the British army. You see, for Johnny Foreigner, British and English is one and the same thing. You can live with that quite easily. I can't.
This, by the way, is one of Europe's leading newspapers and this is the norm of what you'll find in Europe's leading newspapers. That's what our neighbours and allies think of the British Army. That it's English.
Lastly, the reason I can say that my pride for Scotland is greater than your pride for Britain is that Scotland is a nation and Britain is not. Britain is at least three different nations. The army maybe teaches you otherwise. The army is wrong.
But you're saying this yourself. You say "I can distinguish between Scottish, British and English."
And I say, "Exactly." You recognise the difference between them. So, you're acknowledging the fact that Scotland is a nation in it's own right. Bully for you if you're proud of Britain. It jus
MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE ARTICLE IS:"The committee voted by eight to seven to replace the Saltire with the new Angus flag on key council buildings in the ten main burghs."
Is it's only by wan person, that this change was passed through, the people have every right to complain about it. In particular when they are going to see the flag being flowen or not been flowen.
#91
You would not recognize a soldier if he was standing in full 1A, 2A,1B, 2B, or 2C.Make your petty little comments and we will continue to ensure you can.
#86, #88
The SNP did not get a majority of councillors in Angus. This fact seems to elude you.
The electoral system changed. It is now necessary to govern in coalition, and SNP groups seem to have been viewed as tolerable partners in many areas of Scotland. But not in Angus, where previously they ruled. Does this tell you something?
The SNP entered the elections under the system which was being used, as they did for the Scottish parliamentary elections. They benefited from the latter, and from the former elsewhere in Scotland, but nats like you seem to do nothing but whine when you don't get your own way. I thought that moaning about the rules after the result was meant to be a unionist trait?
In Angus, the people most definitely did not vote for the SNP. They achieved only 38.3% of the votes cast in the council elections, and yet you expect that whatever they want should be approved? Some democrat you. Just anti-Scottish and trying to frustrate the will of the People in Angus.
Surprisingly enough, Councillor Sandy West has close links with the extremist Siol nan Gaidheal organisation.
For any council or local body to enter into discussion/debate about replacing a countries national flag on council buildings, for the purpose of promoting an advantage, be it for tourism or financial gain is unjustifiable under any circumstances. Scotland’s flag is reprenstative of a country, its people and its history , which of course goes back many hundreds of years. To consider replacing the St. Andrews flag, or placing it alongside in partnership with a local council crest that has been used on only some occasions is demeaning to both our national flag and its people. The Saltire is not something to be toyed with at the behest of some local councillors for the purposes of local area council gain or to decide if or when the Saltire should be flown. It is reported in the local newspaper, that it was said the issue was "hijacked by some with a mischievous agenda" and "blown out of proportion" On the contrary it was by these few councillors own actions that they are responsible for the present situation that now exists. This "issue" is now becoming so controversial that not only has, as reported, receiving support from the public, MP's, MSP's and councillors from across Angus becoming involved, but also members from the Scottish American community adding their names, as well as appearing in the national press. This could become an issue larger than they anticipated and could well start to be perceived as having taken roots from a more larger national political issue!! (is this what it is partially about?) With an end result of having a negative effect for the Angus area. The St Andrews Flag and it's meaning goes far beyond the local politics of council business.
#96
For any parish council or local body to enter into discussion/debate about replacing a countries national flag on government buildings, for the purpose of promoting an advantage, be it for tourism or political gain is unjustifiable under any circumstances. Britain’s flag is representative of a country, its people and its history, which of course goes back many hundreds of years. To consider replacing the Union Flag, or placing it alongside in partnership with a local flag that has been used on only some occasions is demeaning to both our national flag and its people. The Union Flag is not something to be toyed with at the behest of some MSPs for the purposes of party political gain or to decide if or when the Union Flag should be flown. It is reported in the local newspaper, that it was said the issue was "hijacked by some with a mischievous agenda" and "blown out of proportion" On the contrary it was by these few MSPs' own actions that they are responsible for the present situation that now exists. This "issue" is now becoming so controversial that not only has, as reported, receiving support from the public, MP's, MSP's and councillors from across Scotland becoming involved, but also members from the British community overseas adding their names, as well as appearing in the national press. This could become an issue larger than they anticipated and could well start to be perceived as having taken roots from a more larger national political issue!! (is this what it is partially about?) With an end result of having a negative effect for Scotland. The Union Flag and it's meaning goes far beyond the local politics of Holyrood.
AM2,You present yourself as a fair-minded person who happens to fall on the unionist side.Can you give me examples of defending the Union in other online publications,i.e.Telegraph,Times etc.against the English Nationalist side?Waiting in anticipation.
#99
I see that your earlier posts relate solely to the issue in hand. for some reason you have reverted to the issue of the union and the union flag. As you will know the union is made up of different countries with their own flags and their own histories, which goes back a lot further than any history that the union flag may have. I am not making a specific political statement, as I believe that, and have read that members of other Scottish political parties are also proud of the Scottish flag of St. Andrew, Whether they be Snp, Labour, Conservative or Lib Dem etc., Also that the Scottish electorate of all political persuasions voted to have our own Parliament in Hollyrood. This issue wants to replace our own national flag with a local council flag. I think the same feeling would prevail in England or Wales if the same situation were to exist their.
Sorry to interrupt your seduction of Karinm,but can you answer my question at#102...You ask him Karinm,he listens to you.
Umm...Hello?Am2comma?Are you there?
There is no reason (other than a financial one) why the local councils can not have their own flag, which can be flown together with the Saltire. And in places where there is only one flagpole, they just have to add a second one.
Sorry Am2. I just thought that if one can defend a point of view on a particular thread,ie Unionist v Scot Nats on the Scotsman,why can you not defend the union against the English Nats on other sites?You are a vociferious defender of the Union are you not?Defend against the English Nats on other sites and I will listen.
#107 Ivan 2
Constructive and reasoned post.
Personally, I couldn't give a monkeys what flag flies. I am more concerned about what idiotic schemes they are hatching inside public buildings to waste more of our cash.
What I do get irritated about are the windbag nats that cannot see that the situation is exactly the same as Brown v Salmond on this, except the other way round. Either they are too stupid or too partisan to get it.
#123
"And in places where there is only one flagpole, they just have to add a second one"
FFS, no. Councils waste enough of our money without pointless gestures that most folk won't give a stuff about.
The only appropriate flag for Scotland is the Saltire. Perhaps Scotland should be on its own, separate from England, and separate from Ireland - to remain strong in its own culture and thinking without the influence of either. I believe Scotland could stand on it's own and perhaps be better off.
.........................well I could think it over but I am pretty busy these days and right now I cannot access the property where my gr******** grandfather's crown and sceptor have most likely been stashed and I suppose we could replace those with some new ones diamonds and tiny emeralds with eight rubies would be nice but that old one would be my favorite if I am the only one who knows where something is doesn't that kind of mean at this point it is more mine than it is anyone else's and so if others really cared about ever finding that stuff why would they or allow anyone to harass or antagonize me instead of treating me with respect and high regard because if they don't cut it out I will die with this secret and I guarantee no one else will know where to find them if they go in with heavy equipment they could crush precious items beyond repair
