"A competitive yet compassionate economy"

She had the chance to achieve this as Enterprise Minister.

The SNP's pursuit of the independence agenda has nothing to do with politicians following their own agendas. It's more to do with pursuing the right agenda for Scotland. In any event what makes her think her agenda is any better. This is classic Labour arrogance. It's my way or no way...

The picture looks as though she is thinking that "we can't fool them this time".

Wanting the power to raise 7p in extra incomes tax instead of 3p is hardly an example of having "backed increased "fiscal federalism" for Holyrood before".

"Ms Alexander is a close ally of Gordon Brown, ..... it is inconceivable that Mr Brown was not aware of her views when she spoke out yesterday."

Is this just a strategy by Broon to take a bit of wind out of the SNP Sail. She has to be very careful, takling about Fiscal Autonomy like that - people might take her at her word.

'She said: I will lead the Scottish Labour Party'
Wait a minute has there been a change in the set up of the Labour Party?? - Nope
She will only be the leader of the Scottish Labour party group in Holyrood
But for all her assertions that she will be 'independent' from London, she is still reading the script given to her by London! All the phrases are London New Labour speak
"We need to meet voters on their ground. Out of touch is out of power."
"Labour will reform, renew and reconnect"
"We will offer a new progressive, radical and reforming vision."
"Developing Scottish solutions for Scottish aspirations"
"Empowering people and communities and not institutions"
"Consumer not producer-focused public services"
"A competitive yet compassionate economy"
The London Labour words that stuck out (yet again)
were 'reconnect', 'reforming', 'aspirations' and
'Empowering' ; close your eyes and it could have been either Tony Blair or Gordon Brown giving the speech. Fact is Labour in London will not loosen the ties, Gordon Brown, like Tony Blair is to much of a control freak, so he will get Windy to say exactly what he wants her to say, even to the extent of getting her to make out she will be more independent from London
Fact is Labour will do anything now to regain control over Scotland, this is there last chance saloon, but after fifty years of domination over the Scottish political landscape , eight of those years running Scotland and pushing the country down with its lack of 'aspiration', they cannot be trusted.
Case in point, Des Browne has spoken exactly what Gordon is thinking, except he let it out the bag. If Labour is serious, Gordon will drop Des Browne, diminish the roll of the Scottish Office and Labour will split of Scottish Labour as a stand-alone entity. The phrase pigs might fly comes to mind!

I said yesterday that people will take the peewee out of her looks until she comes out with some policies...looks like open season remains open then!!!

Don't worry! Gordon will be along shortly to tell her just what she should be thinking and saying. Arctic Monkey, anyone?

"WHAT WENDY SAYS – AND WHAT SHE MEANS"

Is this The Scotsman setting out the SLP manifesto for them since they don't have the Civil Service to do it for them any more. Lord Haw Haw will be pleased.

She must be very worried though that all the other parties were "delighted" by what she said.

I note that the Tories want her to "win over Gordon Brown" , but the Nicol Stephen only thinks she should "ensure that Des Browne agrees with her". Just shows how second tier the LD's are.

Hey ho - another load of tripe from Hambo. As for 'satchmo' alexander all I want to say is 'same old labour lies that only numpties would believe'. Give them another sniff of government and Scotland will be back to good old days of labour in Scotland i.e. "do as I (London) say and don't expect anything except your benefits while we line our not unconsiderable pockets at your expense". Well she may blush in the photo!!

Stop knocking her looks. Its cheap and nasty.

I find Wendy quite attractive.

#14 Dr Who
More confusion from you. "This is a party that could only find 4 socialist msp.."

Your precious SNP is being bankrolled by Scotland's only billionaire and you want to lecture Labour on socialism?

Where does Salmond stand on Clause IV?

1) If he's for ditching Clause IV then he's a New Labour Blair-ite on this particular issue. So why do the SNP voters criticise Blair for being 'New Labour'?

2) If he's for bringing back Clause IV and nationalising all of Scotland's main industries then Mr Tom Farmer might not like it.

Did Sean Connery make his millions from the state owned film industry in the Soviet Union? Or the privatised film industry in the West?

3) The SNP's economic plan for Scotland is as clear as mud.

Lowering corporation tax for companies that, according to communist Bill Wilson(SNP), should be nationalised?

EXPLAIN.

Sorry Wendy but you don't sound very convincing to me. It's just more politico-business gumpf. Tell us exactly the actions you plan to take in plain and simple words. That might help restore some trust whic is your first job. The you have to work on credibility which depends on what you actually say and ultimately do.

I can't see anything else but a continued downward slide for Labour in Scotland. Not only is ther eno imagination or gravitas there, there is little real evidence thta the party will change. The SNP have clearly stolen a march on the other parties who are all struggling to keep up. While I'm on, the LibDems have made an historic blunder I think by not working with SNP, now nobody gives a dman about them.

Don't get too smug though SNP because though you have made some fine statements and good policy chnages already, we are all watching to see if you can deliver long term - I hope you can BTW.

When is she going to apologise for the years of mismanagement?

good comment paul 16.

Exactly the kind of open minded thinking Scotland needs , the unionist parties policy of trying to stop the debate on the constitution before its even started is just wrong wrong wrong and im pretty sure its backfiring bigtime!

The only unionist party representitives that seem to be happy to engage the argument for the union head-on are a few marginal tories.

It becomes clearer for everyone to see, and accept that Scotland did well after the "union" only because we were free from invasion and had free trade. The idea that this situation would alter after independence in this age of European Union and international free trade is a fiction of the desperate.

Wendy has to show us how the Labour party is going to serve the needs of Scotland within her version of the union, the SNP version of the lack of a union, and the European union. She cannot go on preaching that nothing is going to change.

Even to the most closed minded unionist it is clear that there was no voluntary union between Scotland and England, but that there was an ANSCHLUSS (annexation) and no amount or rewriting history will scrub that clean.

It is time for change. Wendy can be a large part of that or be destroyed by it. I hope she becomes at least a little bit interested in Scotland's prosperity and hope for a decent future.

The first step is for her to realise that the ANSCHLUSS is over, it is finished.

How did she manage to say all that with her mooth closed?

Gottle a geer?

Has Gordon's arm been airbrushed out of the photograph?

Lets face it the London Politburo will be taking charge more than ever.

It's now pretty obvious that Scotland will become an independent country in due course. With even arch opponents calling for greater autonomy the lawyerly arguments about why it is better to have 90% but not 100% will become too complicated for sound bite consumption.

Ms Alexander has four exhausting years ahead of trying to reimpose Labour on a country that is waking up to the possibility of something more than state dependency. The more she sells her particular brand of Thatcherism the quicker the awakening.

Nice to see that Gordon Brown will be at wembley tonight to cheer on the boys!

Funny I thought that Scotland were playing at Pittodrie................oh I see I just got it England are playing Germany tonight at Wembley oh thats why he will be going there to show how altruistic and supportive he is. I suppose it is also green as he does not have to make a carbon contribution travelling to Aberdeen. Oh in that case then I will vote labour.

By the way why is Douglas Alexander dressed up in drag in that photograph and why does the Scotsman run Labour stories every day this week on the front page ?

This has been another party political broadcast on behalf of the New Labour (Scottish Branch) Numpty Party. Election agents: The Hootsmon, Edinburgh.

We are getting off the point here a bit but in response to #24.

To be fair, and whether you agree or not, Gordon Brown is a Unionist and runs the UK Government. Given that 90% of his constituency is England it would be a bit stupid of him not to show some support to England. Being based in London it is also clearly a tad more convenient for him, it's the new national stadium etc etc. C'mon, be fair to the man.

What he should do of course, to show his Unionism, is also to sometimes go to see Scotland and Wales and NI.

Is AS going to Pittordrie BTW?

"New language for Labour" try gobbledegook but they already use that language with WMD's in Iraq and with Labour repeatedly claiming the SNP's plans for independence would mean a £5000 a year tax bill for Scottish families.
May it will be New Gobbledegook ?

Wendy "I welcome a debate about Scotland's constitutional future"
"Wendy said she would take part in the debate to give more powers to the Scottish Parliament"

Yes thats about it. Forced to take part and will basically say No to any major changes.

Unless she says "I recognise that major constitional change is now required with major new powers for the parliament" its just the same old Bull. everything else stated is of no consequence and just preaching to her flock.

The onus is on the unionist parties to state what specific additional powers they think the parliament should have. The position of the SNP is clear to everyone, open and honest - full independence. Wee can agree or disagree. Wendy and the rest need to be put on record for what types of powers she will support and what is a no no.

Instead they will state nothing. The SNP will then push for specifics eg Fiscal autonomy and the others will argue against.

What is this 7% tax varying crap. They attacked the Lib dems tax promises during the election stating it couldnt be done and now try to out sell them....Look, lets stop this %age nonsense now and lets just have tax varying powers full stop as was chosen by the electorate iin the referendum anyway.

Labour - out of touch and out of the game.

Is this the political equivalent of , "You'll have had your tea."

Alan Cochrane says 'NO!'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinio...

#23 re-W Smith - his previous posts show him to be a bigot as well as as a neo-con.

His dangerous opinions should be dismissed but not ignored. He is a prime example of what a modern Scotland should be aiming to move away from.

Now we have Labour saying more powers but no policies and the SNP saying independence but no policies.

Fiscal autonomy is a cornerstone of SNP policy,
if she wants to support it then join the SNP,not
just talk the talk.

Does anyone know how I can contact Gordon Brown ?. My neighbour wants a program from tonight's game.

WHAT WENDY SAYS – AND WHAT SHE MEANS

"We need to meet voters on their ground. Out of touch is out of power."

I will get round the council houses on a wet Wednesday in Methil in my Armani.

"As Scottish Labour leader, I will be uncompromising in my support for change"

I will do as I’m told by Douglas and Gordon.

"Labour will reform, renew and reconnect"

Nab a few SNP policies

"We will offer a new progressive, radical and reforming vision."

I am Tony Blair in drag

"We need to look at how politicians are more financially accountable.

I can’t say that Douglas. Yes you can dear. Your helicopter is waiting.

"I want Scottish Labour to champion the optimism of our country"

If only Freddy Mercury was alive.

"Developing Scottish solutions for Scottish aspirations"

As long as ye keep your aspirations low

"Empowering people and communities and not institutions"

The Scottish Parliament is a Parish Council

"Consumer not producer-focused public services"

Fancy a Porsche anybody. Vote for me.

"A competitive yet compassionate economy"

Union Finance is what keeps us goin’

Oh good.

Loads and loads of Nu-Lab soundbites.

Just what's needed to get Scotland up and running again.

No matter what she says, or how she says it ... I just can't belive a word that comes out of her mouth.

Not once has she admitted that New Labour has been wrong with its policies. She has only said "we must reconnect".

Yeah?? Reconnect your way to a polling booth come next election, Wendy! We'll be watching you with interest ... we just won't expect much!

"The paper suggested the Scottish Parliament be given the power to vary tax by 7 per cent across a range of different taxes, replacing the blunt 3p-in-the-pound income tax power which it has at the moment."........

Whoop-di-doo!!!! How exciting is that? Hooray!.....

erses!

Her first task should be to introduce random drug testing on MSPs at Holyrood.

And here's me thinkin the hootsmon was a Tory rag noooooo, its now a nulab rag, same difference really.
#14 spot on
#15 try not to make too many comments coming from the middle east I'm sure you got enough on yer plate over there to deal with.

Pro unionists with Wendy as your leader you will be unstoppable.

Win lots of votes and take this country to the brink of total destruction.

Awa n bile yer heid's ya numpties. 50 years Labour have had rule in this country.

50 years being led like a little dog on a leash, no more, the people of Scotland are sick fed up to the back teeth of being lied to while the fat cat politicians line their pockets, send their children to the best schools and treat their wives to £13,000 pounds worth of hairdressing.

Glad to see some Labour MSPs seeing the sense of the SNP argument at last, however the fact that this change of tac has been forced upon them and is merely in search of votes rather than for the good of the Scottish people will always stick in my craw.

So blustering joke has been replaced by wendy wind bag. I watched her so called speech on the news it was nowt but typical labour drivel and dross.

SLP REALLY ARE QUITE PATHETIC.

More tax raising powers does not address the fundamental problem and that is we pay more than our fair share into Westminster as it is. Tax raising locally would in effect be extra taxation upon Scotland or if you want to use a very crude comparison we pay twice !

Let us keep the existing taxation and BBC licence fee raised in Scotland, and we will be reasonably happy with that.Of course we will hear the usual mindless drivel about we are subsidised from the South.Its make your mind up time Wendy,who do you answer to, Gordon Broon or the electorate at the polls.

The womens no chance, Id like to say dont underestimate your opponent but even before she got in power she was a laughing stock,

Does anyone seriously think she has the potential to change labour, and win.

shes a puppet. Gordons hardly got an honest mans look about him.?

It is not the raising of taxes that is at issue but the power to decide where it is spent. Just think if we had been Independent we would not have the millstone of the Iraq War (illegal) nor Trident ..just for starters! Wendy your thinking will never be radical...that requires guts.

33
A minor indiscretion when we have people claiming both parties have no policies !That seems to me to be a bit far fetched!

They have more policies than you could read!
How many are worth reading,that is debatable!

Mind you I cant help comparing NuLab to Marx (Groucho that is) when he said I am a man who has principles (but if you dont like them ,I have others)

Hail Tartan Wendy,who stood up to (her OWN party and friend )Gordon Broon and secured favourable deals for Scotland (well what appears to be less of a con on the surface than would have otherwise happened ), or so we are led to believe!
If any of you think that this has not been Stage Managed then you need to get out more!
Its a big con from start to finish,and if you belive a word of it,you should be ashamed .

The article quotes Wendy Alexander as being "strongly opposed to the complete hand-over of all tax-and-spend powers to Holyrood". Therein lies the rock that her Labour crewed ship will perish on, for the only way to eradicate the culture of dependency and low achievement that bedevills Scotland is for there to be a complete hand-over of all tax-and-spend powers to Holyrood.

Brilliant Post, #36 - wee Wendy's going to find out the hard way that leadership's more than spouting a disjointed stream of MBA bullsh"t, buzzwords and weasel-speak, no matter how patronising she manages to make it sound. It was pretty obvious that last night's coronation speech was somebody else's words and she was probably reading them for the first time.

I have read all of the above and I must say i find much of it highly amusing. However the name, Wendy Alexander, does not conjure up humour in me.

In 2001-02 when my late wife was dying as the result of having a brain tumour I wrote to Ms Alexander on several occasions on the availability of the drug, Temodal. This drug would have improved the quality of her life, could have lengthened it and definitely would have made her passing less harrowing. How many replies did I get from Ms Alexander? ABSOLUTELY NONE.

Ms Alexander claims : "I am my own person with my own causes". I can with much assurance tell anybody who wants to hear that care for the afflicted is not one of them.

AARGH - 'radical new ideas - including the transfer of more tax-raising powers to the Scottish Parliament.' What about tax-REDUCING powers? As if Scotland's public sector wasn't bloated enough already. Help!!

50
Indeed, nor would we have contributed 326 billion over the years in oil revenues into Westminster ,nor pro rata taxation on our approx 9% population,all of which would have been monies at the disposal of Holyrood,or should that read Royal High School perhaps, (since Donald Dewar alone knows why we built that building when we already had one which will last longer).

The essential difference under independence is that we would not give them any money so the debate about who subsidises who would not exist.
That alone would be enough reason to convince me that standing on your own two feet is the only position we can adopt.
Its called the pride of being subservient to no one.For too long we have heard nonsense about being too poor and too small.Both are not true and the latter is irrelevant,many nations are smaller and have a higher standard of living,and thats inescapable fact.

Are you listening Wendy?

If you are you could explain why we are not all £5000 worse off. The sNP are in power and everyone knows your scare stories were a pile of lies

Now that you have been "rewarded" with becoming leader of the lemmings you will be in a great position to lead them off the cliff.

Can't come soon enough!

52

SPOT ON!

#49

"Another SNP-fueled sneering forum!"

Yes, Joe, it's quite disgraceful. If only there were enough New New Labour supporters on the boards of this unionist newspaper we could have equal sneering rights.

......Where is the New New Labour support?

S.N.P Drones I do believe you lot are rattled..yes it's true you are...Frit...

Wendy using the S.N.P Game plan. Well done Anything they promise you match all the way short of Independence..

As for the made up Argument with Des keep it up arrange a 'Crisis' then Gordon steps in.

Ignores poor ole Alex and settles the 'Crisis' with Wendy'....I can see it all now...

#49 Labour deserve to be sneered at. They become more pathetic as the days go by. They have finally read the SNP paper on independence and are cherry picking the parts they think they can get away with. Be prepared for a plethora of ideas from Wendy, all based on SNP initiatives.

#51 Morris, what a brilliant Groucho quote. It sums up Wendy to a tee.

This is the clearest indication yet, of an Oct/Nov. 2007 Westminster election.

Fake spat with Westminster, apparent victory(full consultation with our colleagues in Scotland), Westminster election.

NuLab's hope: the SNP guns will be spiked and not too many seats are lost in Scotland. NuLab. win election. Minimal,if any, change in the Devolution settlement.

The underlying NuLab. message is, "Go back to your constituencies, and prepare for victory!".

I agree with those who are suggesting that the apparent willingness of Wendy Alexander to oppose the views of the Brown(e)s is simply a con.

If the Scots vote Labour back into power in 2011 Labour will not fulfil any election pledges which, if fulfilled, would result in a major increase in power for the Scottish Parliament-they will simply fall back into a complacent belief that the Scots will vote Labour no matter what. Labour cannot be trusted.

We have had fifty sodding years of this New New New Listening Wonder Labour in Scotland. Needless to say all this 'new new, listening, change' guff has been all over the fawning press.

It's all a con. The only ones that will benefit from Nu-NuLab rule are they themselves with their cronyism, nepotism and corruption at taxpayer's expense. Sod the miserable, poor sods in their devastated communities they purport to represent.

Time to stand on our own two feet, throw the rascals out, take control of our own finances , rid ourselves of dependency and forge a new destiny for ourselves and our children here in Scotland.

#51. morris. Thats pretty much how I see this too, but most political stuff is stage managed by all the parties its what they will or wont do to backup the soundbites that counts.

Labour wont walk the walk. As I said yesterday they will continue to try to 'aspire' as the SNP 'astonish'. In the near impossible event that Wendy does actually propose polices that people want and believe they they will iactually get delivered, its already too little too late. The SNP would still need to screw up badly to reverse the trend.
Also, I cant wait to see what Wendy will propose for Council tax reform. How about 5 new bands to show how much more radical and deep thinking than Jack she is ;)

# 60 HYDB

"Wendy using the S.N.P Game plan. Well done Anything they promise you match all the way short of Independence.."

Why not go the whole hog, if all she has is the art of imitation?

Crivens, even in an independent Scotland our esteemed voters would still probably vote Labour in their droves.

Not my choice for leader but we have to make the best of things - Now Wendy, get stuck into these NATS - Just look at what they are doing, along with the Lib Dems to Edinburgh - cuts in Education and Child Care - so much for their 'breath of fresh air' - Support the Demo at the City Chambers tommorrow morning and save our services and resources that we all paid for but are now being robbed by the tartan tories. Get this lot out!

#60
Assuming you were correct, what you appear to be saying is that the important thing is to trick the voters into re-electing New Labour. You seem totally disinterested in achieving the best outcome for the people of this country - regardless of which party does it. This is a worrying attitude and totally at variance with the principles on which the Scottish Parliament was founded - to be frank, it comes across as the attitude of an unprincipled party hack.

Incidentally, "frit" is not an appropriate adjective to use in Scotland, it being an obscure piece of Lincolnshire dialect, briefly brought into the public domain by one Margaret Thatcher, spiritual leader of New Labour.

This is the beginning the end. Labour champion more powers but stop short of Independence and challenge the SNP to hold a 3 question referendum. More powers wins and Salmond has already admitted the question can be asked only once a generation. We get more powers which the majority want and most of the posters here can find something else to do.

62. frank mcbride. Good point, but dont kid yourself that the timining of the election has anything to do with Scottish politics or electorate.

Its all about how well the tories are doing in England or not and the combined English vote. Since the Tories cant seem to do anything except own goals it a case of better the devil you know.

Further, Scottish voters vote differently in the GE. Most people will still vote Labour to Westminster. The Labour core and the election system will guarantee only a few SNP gains. However, how people vote in the GE says zero about what people want the Scottish parliament to deliver - how could it?

WENDY Alexander became the leader-elect of the Scottish Labour Party yesterday and immediately announced she was prepared to embrace radical new ideas - including the transfer of more tax-raising powers to the Scottish Parliament.

There goes your freedom. If you change anything the Brits do not like this.

I can only assume Wendy Alexander is against full fiscal autonomy because of orders from on high - misguided orders. Full autonomy would do all the anti independence parties good because it would extinguish much of the animosity that many English politicians now feel towards the devolved areas. It would also, at last, force Scots to take responsibility for their own country

# 67

"Get this lot out!"

Four years to wait Sedov...ooh the travails of impatience...

Incidentally Sedov, who is your choice for leader?

In a lot of ways Labour a no different from the SNP - it's all and fine to talk a good game - delivery of promises is what will matter.

As with the present Scottish Executive I'll reserve judgement until she actually delivers what she promises.

69. malkster. I mentioned yesterday that a 3 question referendum could be good thing. However we would need a concensus over what, specifically, the 'more powers' would deliver. Just how likely is that?

To paraphrase Gump: A referendum is not 'a box of choclates' we need to know what were gonna get.

Would you vote for more powers if you had no idea what you get?

The FMQ's will be a laugh from now on!!! Wee wendy spouting her slavers, with the rest of Labour holding their heids in their haunds!!! A can see it noo......fantastic!!!!!

If you think Wee Eck smirks too much at the moment, just wait until his reaction to Ms Alexander every week!!!

You can rest assured what NuLab are talking about under the guise of new DEVOLVED POWER is something along the lines of we have control over all Loch Ness Monsters discovered, and can issue licences to American tourists who want to hunt on our famous haggis moors.
(Actually now that I think on it,that ain't such a bad idea) !

We certainly will not have any control over existing money, and we will eventually get nuclear waste dumped here ,irrespective of whether we like it or not, simply because they wont allow it in the Thames estuary, which I have heard is one of the safest places we have !

Once again Dounreay ,(or somewhere equally sparsely populated, will be the nations choice,(but nobody can adequately explain why of course).
After all we are still working out why, an area with a tiny population,almost no industry,and a surplus of electricity on its doorstep ,needed a nuclear reactor in the first place!
So much so that they could close it , and by some amazing coincidence its 100% safety record suddenly was not worth the paper it was printed on. Kind of kicks that one into touch does it not?

Here's the doomsday scenario!

The Unionist parties decide to press for more devolved powers for the Scottish electorate - the SNP oppose this out of principle.
We have the referendum and independence does not gain any real support, certainly not anywhere close to a majority - what happens to the SNP then?
If there raison d'etre gets rubbished by the electorate again then why continue.....

75

You are right Dave but how many Labour voters do you suppose have sufficient grey matter to realise that? Precious few as far as I can see.

I certainly would not buy a second hand car from anybody in Nu(mpty) Labour!

Regarding tax raising powers and raising money from abroad. Various U.K. governments have made total rickets of public sector spending. What happens if a future Holyrood administration gets into severe financial problems. Will the rest of the U.K. be expected to underwrite any financial liabilities. And if the situation be reversed what would Holyrood's view of covering any future financial problems in the rest of the U.K.

With regard to independent tax raising powers. If there is a difference say in alcohol or fuel taxes either side of the English/Scottish border would you need border controls to prevent movement of goods. This has happened in Ireland between the north and south of the country.

With the drive for independence increasing on both sides of the border isn't the down-side of financel and taxation a problem that needs to be addressed now.

60 - RATTLED? By Wendy Alexander? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.....

Every voter I've spoken to since Labour mooted Wendy as leader has brought the same response and it isn't one to rattle any SNP supporter, I'll tell you that. When all is said and done, like the rest of them, she has an ego the size of Ben Nevis and a gob that proves it.

Rattled by the Alexander sisters...HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA - funny (NOT!) as my 4 year old niece would say.

#70

You are correct about people voting differently at a general election than Scottish Elections. And this time I have a feeling that the difference could be more marked for a number of reasons:

* Many voted for the SNP at the Scottish elections not out of enthusiasm but to give Tony Blair a kicking - one wonders that with Blair gone some of those voters may not stay with the SNP. that is not to say that labour will be the beneficiaries - I suspect that the Lib Dems will pick up more of the protest vote than at the Scottish elections. If I were a betting man I'd have a wager that they will do better in scotland than they are presently polling.

* The media agenda will be dominated by UK issues not Scottish issues - even the Lib Dems are more likely to get coverage than the SNP.

* Some voters may not have a problem with having an SNP Scottish executive and a Labour Government - the idea of splitting powers between parties may appeal to some voters

* Some voters may feel that the SNP do not really care about Westminster and that having power already at Holyrood is good enough.

* Some voters will be swayed by a "Vote SNP, get A Tory Government" line that I believe will be pushed - that might be cynical but it will be effective in some constituencies

* The SNP can't do an "Alex Salmond for First Minister" this time round - their number one weapon is not returning to Westminster and that could be significant.

My prediction - Labour will return with an increased majority - they will lose some seats in Scotland (Dundee West a possible, Kilmarnock & Louden a possible) but the SNP will not make the break through in the constituencies where it matters - watch them pile up votes in their strongholds in the North-East and fall short in traditional Labour heartlands of the west-central belt.

#67>
One of the oldest cliches of the past to hold back the advancement of Scotland you use;* Tartan Tories*. Probably you have no conception as to who the original Tartan Tories were? Or have you?
You seek support for a party of power and glory seekers who have since 1997 mucked up every aspect of the social environment of this island and reduced it to the present state of near anarchy; yet, these are the same impostors you wish to continue running the future destiny of Scotland. It would have been nice if Thatcher had left some of our pits open and the present crop of sham New Labour Champagne socialists were rounded up; and put down one of them, to earn an honest living
instead of the sleazy corrupt lifestyles they all seem to enjoy!

#78 Exactly,

Say what you like about Labour but they will do what it takes to hanog onto power and this will be the plan.

No mention of the fact that many of what is supposed to be Wendie's closest supporters did not wait to hear her speak

She was not on the agenda

78
THE SNP OPPOSE THIS OUT OF PRINCIPLE?
The SNP favour independence as first preference,true, but that does not mean that they oppose any increase in devolved power .
Its not their first choice ,but its a step in the right direction. The problem, if there is one, is how big a step is it forward ,and is it accompanied by three to the right which brings you back to the Status Quo again?

The point is surely that MORE POWER could mean absolutely anything ,including a figure which rounds up to the nearest whole number which is zero.

Labours proposal is ambiguous ,and for obvious reasons!We want you to vote for something,you will find out what after we are elected!Nothing new there then!

I should also point out that we twice had a referendum on devolution with different results,(but independence was excluded as an option)
In a democracy, there can be no such animal as the settled will of the people,and a further referendum is perfectly in order, but clearly, unless there is a suggestion that public opinion has changed significantly enough to make the result other than a repetition,and the time between the two should obviously take account of this.
Devolution is indeed an ongoing process,it was designed to halt or failing that slow down independence,never to provide good governance for Scotland.Its real purpose is to allow Westminster to take as much of Scotland's oil for as long as we are stupid enough to allow this (and other equally beneficial deals of course)!

The saying goes Con me once shame on you,con me twice, shame on me!
Scotland has 40 years at least ,and some of us are proud of this!

The Disgusting Corrupt Labour movement trys to put a less sleazy face on it ....

Like putting lipstick on a sow ... they are still the same old pharts with the same old agenda ... that being trying to get back into power so they (and their mates) can stick their snouts into the public purse!

Glad to get rid of Joke though!

I wish she would stop talking in sound bites.

She also needs to spell out what she actually believes fiscally. It is clear as mud.

This language she uses is a direct throwback to her days working with management consultants Booz Allen a few years ago.
I worked with an organisation which used this company to "change" the culture and "empower" the workforce.......it succeeded in driving a culture of spin and counter spin.
Watch for phrases like "going forward with labour".

She is a clone of a management culture which brought fear to a lot of people which in truth produced a lot of hot air and very little change from the norm.
What will the left wingers think of her remains to be seen but in a radio interview she would not admit to being a socialist.........just a clone and Gordons puppet at Hollyrood.

#85 Whcih is why Devolution Max should be on the ballot paper for a referendum. If it is a simple yes-no vote and the Nats lose then the extreme unionists will see it as an excuse to do nothing. I am sure that the Nats themselves would prefer a Devolution Max choice than no change at all. it would also suit people like myself who don't support independence but are not happy with the present set-up either.

#83. Not A Unionist or Nationalist

Primarily because of the electoral system, you are probably correct in saying that the SNP will only make a modest advance in terms of seats at the next Westminster election. However there will be a sharp increase in their vote which will leave them as a major threat to Labour at the following general election.

As for the Lib Dems, they might do better for Westminster than for Holyrood, but their vote will be well down from the 2005 Westminster election and so they will be clearly seen as a party in decline and will win no constituency seats at Holyrood bar Orkney and Shetland in 2011.

The major trend over the next few years will be an increase in the voting % for the SNP-whatever election is involved

#81 Why do the English seem to think that they need to bankroll folk? As far as I can see they need their own bawbees AND OURS. Raising and deciding how we use our own cash, is no country's business but their own.

As for WA - it looks to me like the same old story, in slightly different words, but the meaning is there.

Just a thought! If Gordy calls an election, is his Westminster seat that safe? Could be a weee bit embarassing! (As for his carbon footprint, thought he was on hols in N Queesferry so Aberdeen's Pittodrie is nearer than Wembley)

Anyone else already annoyed with Wendy always saying "Ehh !!"

Its like listening to Alex Miller in drag

Alex becomes first minister.
S.N.P. brings a breath of fresh air to Scottish politics.
They don't waste any time righting the wrongs inflicted on us by new labour.
Labour are incensed, that the voter dared to boot them out, after they had been sussed out because of their allegiance the private finance sector, their underhand secret K.G.B. type of governing.
Joke McConnell forced to resign
Wendy the puppet clown becomes labour leader.
the puppet clown says she wants devolved powers to Scotland for tax raising.
Aren't S.N.P. doing well they are forcing labour to abandon their principles by now all of a sudden, wanting more powers for Scotland.
Why don't we believe this latest spin and lies.
Wee might then believe them if they said, why just devolve one thing why not go the whole hog and have full independence and full control of our own affairs.

#83 As a Nationalist that is I agree a fairly plausible scenario. However it presupposes the SNP do not have any options beyond shouting from the sidelines. My guess is they will seek to gain control of the agenda. Tactics will include:

1. revelations of corruption, skullduggery and conspiracy against Scotland by Westminster revealed by having greater access to government information.

2. Well timed conversions to the cause by prominent Scots and non-Scots.

3. Reaching out/internationalisation - getting friendly countries such as Norway on our side in the UN to complain about systematic bias in UK elections.

4. killer new policies - I suggest scrapping of the hated BBC License Fee tax.

5. Attractive manifesto of positive policies for an independent Scotland with message - do you really want four more years of the same old NuLab misery?

Maybe you could add to the suggestion list from your unbiased point of view.

81

You need to understand that Scotland gives more to Westminster than she receives back,and its agreed that Westminster gives Scotland back what she needs (well thats the theory anyway).You in fact give us part of our own money back,so unless you start from a position of truth ,and that is that we already subsidise England to the tune of millions when you count in the 326 billion from the Scottish sector of the North Sea, then the waters are indeed muddy.
Yes the matter does need to be addressed now but the difference is you have been conned (like us) into believing that you subsidise the Scots! ITS DEFINITELY NOT TRUE!
I wish England every success and welcome her national identity being proclaimed again,but you should not assume that London told you the truth.WE KNOW SHE DID NOT!

#88

If there is a 3 question referendum and the majority vote for a form of devolution max. What do the SNP do for the next thirty years or so. Concentrate on winning power to best use th epowers they won or continue to campaign for full independence.

Morning All. Never seen so many "Comment Removed"(s)! What in this relatively innocuous article, has fanned such passion?

Have I missed something? Where is AM2?
Surely h/she was not one of the New Lab spin civil servants just given the chop?????????
I would have expected a spirited defence of the new boss.

#99

Come on AM2, thats just hysterical, it is a fact that the North Sea does contribute significantly to the UK coffers and the closest part of the UK to that area is Scotland.

#99

"Nobody except the SNP believes the SNP's economic propaganda."

What about the 664,227 souls who voted for them?

All deluded?

#73 & 84 you can choose to ignore the £9million cuts being imposed on by the NATS and Lib Dems in Edinburgh by putting all sorts of spin to avoid the fact that this is being caused by policies usually associated with the Tories. your own leader, Salmond recently pledged tax breaks for big business -how Tory is that? Will you be at the demo at 9.15 tommorrow at the City Chambers? --- I don't think so.

#104

Yep and it will work as well because all of a sudden the SNP will look hypocritical if they strongly oopose the Labour Party now they are prepared to talk about further powers.

#68

I know I can be a bit of a silly old buffer, knocking on a bit, but I'm also now very confused (my normal state, some may say!). How can Margaret Thatcher be the "spiritual leader" of New Labour when, love her or loathe her, the old girl actually seemed to BELIEVE in what she was saying and doing? I rest my case.

#62 frank mcbride

"Fake spat with Westminster, apparent victory" For Wendy marginalise Alex Salmond Something on those lines I agree still disagree over 2007 election.

#69 malkster

thats the way to go..

#82 Gill,

There are more comments over what Wendy may not may not do (plus insults) Than about any S.N.P policies..Why is that ..eh.??

#68 Hungry Joe

Aside from the 'Racist' undertone of your remark 'Frit' is a word I like.
Thanks for the linguistic history though.

I wish they would give us a referendum on Independence NOW - no conversation - just a vote and that would shut everyone up on both sides.

#96

1. If the SNP try that one they will need to tread very carefully - I have seen at least 2 rumours doing the rounds - let's juts say one of them muight be called potatogate.

2. You alawys get these during an election and to be honest I don't think they matter a damn - people don't vote for political parties on the basis of which celeb/businessman votes which way - teh Record will no doubt do their Sir Alex Ferguson piece as usual - but I don't believe it has a significant effect on voters either way.

3. Somehow I don't think your average voter has much interest in the affairs of the UN - and it won't be front page news either.

4. Getting coverage for those policies is the problem though - Brown is not stupid - he will try to set the agenda - Labour will do a major policy announcement each day of the campaign in realtion to the areas that they believe concern voters - voters are more likely to be influenced by issues such as Health and Education that say the TV license.

5. Manifestos - sorry but they are a complete and utter waste of time - most people do not read them - even the literature that is put through the door goes in the bin for a lot of voters. I have found that voters tend to be influenced a lot more by the visual media than anything else. That means that if there are televised debates then they may have more effect. Again, if Labour have sense, I suspect they they will avoid debating with Salmond - it may be cynical but then that's politics for you.

Labour's strategy I suspect will focus on the Tories - they will try to avoid any confrontation with the SNP - for them the less voters see the SNP the better.

It's too late for Alexander - people have had more than enough of Labour. The party has been in power in Scotland for a generation and has merely succeeded in stullifying the Scottish economy with red tape - what is needed is to open up the free market and to abolish most of the quangos which contain Labour placemen. Only the Conservatives can achieve this, as only they understand business. There's no way Scotland should have more control over tax if it's going to lead to more failed Labour tax and spend policies! Alexander's been given a poisoned chalice and she knows it.

#99 AM2 I am sure u remember Newnight Uk looking into this afew months ago and came to the conclusion that scotland this yr is meant to have a lower deficit than the uk as a whole (labours figures). And as such will be technically subsidising (this yr atleast on gordons budgeted figures) the rest of the uk by inheriting a debt level greater that it is actually creating.

AM2,

No party allegiance!!!!????

Didn't you confess to being a Tory with a deep admiration of the ultra rightwing Tony Blair? Didn't the Rev Ian Paisley float your boat as well?

Wendy Alexander has quickly recognised the role she must play as the leader of the Scottish Labour Party. She knows that the people of Scotland require a leader who will fight their cause and tackle the REAL issues. I think Alexander will surprise many people, and make huge in roads for Scottish Labour.

Scotland does not have a political party fighting for Scotland, she has a leading party concentrating on nothing but independence, and another party battling to find their feet again. Neither of them doing anything for the people. I think Alexander will be a breathe of fresh air for Scotland, and I wish her all the best. Someone needs to stand up for Scotland, it may as well be Alexander.

#109 AM Squared.

"I have no party allegiance".

Is that the case? Which party were you with when you stood for election in Northern Ireland? Are you no longer a member of that party? If not, why did you leave them?

#114 To say that only one party understands business is nonsense - all political parties have different business people supporting them. In fact I'd go as far to say that the party that is losing business people's support are the Tories - many SMEs do not trust their infatuation with big business.

#117 Media 1 Cape Town
I think you have missed the last 100+ days of the SNP Government
Plain as day, they are fighting for Scotland and have done a better job of running Scotland and believing in Scotland
Windy Alexander is just the same old same old

110. howyoudoingboy.

"There are more comments over what Wendy may not may not do (plus insults) Than about any S.N.P policies..Why is that ..eh.??"

Just maybe because thats what the article is about? ;)

#111

"Plenty of people either voted SNP but don't want independence, or do want independence but recognise the SNP's economic arguments to be dubious."

So you polled these people for this view or did you just divine it?

Really old chap, you can't dismiss the views of 664,227 people with such claptrap.

I notice that the Labour drones are trying to spin that the SNP are scared of WENDY. I suspect that they know that she ain't that popular. She was a very poor minister who's main problem was that although very clever she lacked common sense and political nous.

The key for her is in her time away from the frontbenches has she learned from her mistakes. IF she has then she has got a chance. If she hasn't - and the evidence of the last few months is that she hasn't - then she could be the catalyst for Labour copying the decline of the Tories.

I don't think that she is popular amongst Labour MSPs and while that might not be important what is is that they don't have much respect for her. The weakness for Labour is that she is pretty much the only option they had.

Labour are playing it clever with the good cop bad cop routine BUT it's fairly irrelevant at the moment because they are not in power in Holyrood. And the reality is that the Labour front bench - irrespective of the make up - will always be outclassed by the SNP frontbench. And more worringly in certain cases they will be outclassed by the Tories and the Libs (Wendy for example is no match to Annabelle Goldie)

This is great stuff actually.

She has moved into the SNP's ground big time.

I can see some quite good things happening over the next few years if the details of policy can be agreed in parliament.

#62frank mcbride

Do agree with your assessment. The next Election will be decided by the Scottish seats. Gordon cannot afford to lose any let alone a few. But we will just have to wait and see. As I said before is Gordon Enough of a Gambler to go for it???? I wonder..um
Gordon doesn't Bet on the gee..gees like a certain other person.

#122David MacVicar
touche, david Im in a hurry this morn.

#113 Not a etc.

Thanks for the considered response to the post.

1. You might be right - it depends on how much the dirt the spooks have been able to collect on behalf of NuLab as 'exposure insurance'. Best for NuLab to ensure the truth is kept out of elections.

2. I agree.

3. Probably but maybe worth a shot anyway. Remember although NuLab control the media they do not control the internet where more and more people will get their election news from anyway.

4. Do I detect a smidgeon of agreement on the effectivness of a 'scrap the license fee' policy?

5. I agree.

I think the Tories might want to mention the SNP though to the English electorate worried about Brown' Scottishness - e.g. does he really care if Gloucestershire is flooded permanently?

#117 Media 1

Couple of points -
"tackle the REAL issues"
you need the powers to tackle real issues. the parliament does not have power in many areas that are REAL issues and in many areas it is completely fudged.
Look at a few. Economy. Scotland has had poor economic growth for generations, but does not have control of tax that could help change this. Add competition policy etc. Her smar successful scotland policy has pretty much failed even getting slagged of for its implementation by herself.
Law and order: cannot even change law in firearms after baby was killed even though parliament apparently wanted to and it came to light that the emergency services where routinely getting shot at by airguns. And no power of drugs possibly the most important. Consider the mess westminster has made of the issue recently.

These are REAL issues she will have no control over.

There is also the muddle over energy policy and transport. Permission for new runways is apparently not with the sp but the uk tranport minister. why? getting direct flights is a pretty big real issue for a remote country. Trains: devolved after devolution but in a way the structure is controlled at westmister. sp fund something but cannot change it structure. what a mess!

117. Media 1 aka V.I. I dont normally respond to any of your delusions however:

She herself stated that the constutional question was the main issue in Scottish politics.

Most of the rest of your post is of course total nonsense. She may well make inroads and she is role playing. Casted by Gordy and with Labour party success as her goal. The SNP have Scottish Success as their goal 1st and only which contradicts most of what you say.

Labour voters seem to be forgetting, LABOUR ARE OUT. New voters will not be automatically voting for labour anymore. I would suggest the young voter
will stay/ join the SNP. They will not accept that they are incapable of running their own affairs, on
the contrary , they will relish the idea. They are much more politically aware than their parents, and certainly won't recognise Labour as "The party of the
working man" on the contrary they will see decades of labour rule have brought Scotland nothing.

The off-spring of the benefit brigades and Bad Back squadrons will not be voting at all , they will regard
voting as a "poofs hing", so we can disregard them.

you must be crapping yourself Sedov, just think
you could be forced into employment under the SNP.

Salmond should defer a referendum for 5 years, to build up the youth vote, then go to the people.

93 & 97. Why don't you read what I have written. Who has funded who over the last 300 years is no longer relevant. I was asking about the implications on raising revenue and the effects of different tax regimes on the movement of goods and services. You should start thinking and stop exposing your prejudices. It's fascinating that supporters of independence in Scotland always start the economics of the union with North Sea oil. It isn't a case of if the English/Scottish union ends it's when. A lot of subjects will need to be addressed.

Don't be fooled by the desperate attempts of a bunch of Scottish politicians at Westminster to keep their gravy train and their sad little place on "the world stage." There are two camps in England - "the don't care if you go or stay" and the "independence for England". Within the total English economy the Scottish section of the north sea oil and gas fields are becoming increasingly irrelevant. We just wish you would make a decision about independence. We wish Gordon Brown would even give we English the opportunity or even open a discussion on independence for England. Somehow I can't see "Mr Britishness" doing that now that he has become an English football supporter. He is probably lining up a safe English seat for when he loses his Scottish seat to the SNP at the next election.

The words of politicians don't need "translation" and interpretation. If they are not clear enough, it is a sign that they are a simple smoke screen of words, and not meaningful promise of action. The deliberate fuzzy, foggy, wording assures voters that the politicians will wriggle out by suggesting that they have been misinterpreted. It is all Bull*** !

What voters want is clear cut words, that state exactly what action will be taken, by whom, when and why, and also how much it will cost, and how it will be paid for. Anything other than this is an attempt to deceive with words. These Clear cut words, must then be followed by ACTION, and the action must be followed by a PERFORMANCE ASSESSMENT, and CORRECTION where necessary. Simple. It is the way the Private sector works, this is how the public sector should work.

If Beny Wendy's record at Scottish Enterprise is anything to go by, if Scotland votes Labour, Scotland is doomed to FAILURE by it politicians!

AMsquared
May I draw your attention to the many articles and businesses which seem to have a better knowledge than you do over the Scottish economic situation?

People can research widely and draw their own conclusions. I suggest that you read more widely and actually put forward substantiated evidence that voters have not drawn their own conclusion over the persistant mismanagement of Scotland's economics by the Unionists of all colours(and none).

You claim to have no political affiliations, but your colours are ill disguised.

#70, David McVicar.

I am aware that the English numbers are the more important to Brown, and have been saying since the beginning of the "Brown bounce" that he would go for an early election. He cannot leave it till spring 2008 because, by then, the economy will, obviously, be beginning to unravel.

The point I was trying to make is, that he does not want to be having to defend a lack of, or seriously diminished, mandate in Scotland.

So, for both reasons, he will go for an election in Oct/Nov. 2007.

Notice it is tax RAISING powers she wants, not tax REDUCING powers.

Just a thought.

#97 morris
Your post absolutely spot on. Scotland in no way needs England and it angers them when we point that out.

#99 AM2
Rubbish why should we tell that to Standard & Poors Oxfords Economics, are they going to twist everything to Westminster's lies, One things for sure you wouldnt get the truth from them at England's expense. Anyway Ive asked you before why does England hang on to Scotland's aprons. The answer is so obvious, it is a fact that they have to much to lose.

132

Quick question:

There is already an island with different tax systems and different currencies.

One part of it is an independent member of the EU. One part of it is in the UK.

Which part is doing better?

AM2#123,

In the past, you've confessed to being a Tory, when being accused of being an official Labour worker!! I'm sure there are many contributers here that remember all your ducking and diving before the last Scottish elections!!

Maybe all your different guises are confusing you!! You're beginning to unravel!!!! Or could it be, all the people responsible for the thousands of AM2 posts aren't communicating with one another?

#99 A.M.2
Why does England not say to Scotland you are subsidised too much by England you can have your independence???????? Any other country would.

Och Aye.........that'll be the Fraser of Allander Institute that her man works for then?
Surprise, surprise that she agrees wi'that report ........with its need for "multi-level governance" and "spatial economic change"
...........jist like a' labour's cooncilirs huv been tellin' us fur years then intit

142

You know perfectlyn well that the costings you recite for the SNP's manifesto are Labour Party costings of the SNP manifesto, not SNP costings.

So stop trying to pretend that those figures are somehow official. They are simply an opinion.

I could do exactly the same exercise with Labour's manifesto. It's meaningless.

The costings of the policies that the SNP government intends to implement will be provided by the Scottish civil service when those proposals are placed before parliament.

At that point you can start quoting them as official figures because by that point they will be.

#133 Peter - yes I agree with most of what you state, that is why I want elections for all MSP's with the right of recall at any time and paid on a a wage equal to the average wage of a skilled worker. however, the fact is that the SNP are trying to be all things to everyone -a wee bit of socialism here to suit their purposes and then a wee bit incentives for big business over there to keep them happy - This policy is doomed to failure it will all end in tears mark my words.

#142 i think u are being a bit disingenious here. Scandanian countries are richer than scotland and have higher tax rates. Ireland is richer than scotland but has a lower tax model. Because the 2 models pointed out both have richer economies that scotland does not mean that it is not possible to have something in between.

U also say the ireland has poor public services. From my information ireland has a better education system and when i worked there the people talk freely about their excellent education system. So in this aspect i would suspect u are wrong. Tranport: ireland was a poor country until the last 20yrs when it has been transformed as such dublin has not inherited an underground system like london or even glasgow. it will take a while for transport infrastructure to catch up. u cannot do in 15yrs what others have done over 100. i believe dublin is putting in place major work to rectify its transport system with it new found wealth.

1 last point. remember it is not public services but the welfare state/social security that a tends be the biggest recipient of tax revenues.

#134

What's it supposed to prove? That you do not know the exact reasons why people voted SNP, you may make vague assumptions for the reasons, but you do not know therefore you cannot infer that an unknown number of those who voted for SNP did so but find their 'economic arguments dubious'.

I realise that it's going to be a long hard four years in opposition for you. That the coronation of one candidate with a dubious background in Holyrood politics, who previously ran away with her tail between her legs when it didn't all go her own way, is now the face and (shudders) voice of all your hopes.

Is there not a little chink of hope in you that the next four years might pass in (gulp) harmony and consensus politics as we move irrevocably towards an independent Scotland?

Incidentally I watched John Pilger's very moving documentary, 'THE WAR ON DEMOCRACY' on tv the other night and was struck by his closing conversation with Hugo Chavez, who very aptly quoted Dumas Père

"All human wisdom is summed up in two words; wait and hope."

#45
"Why does England not say to Scotland you are subsidised too much by England you can have your independence???????? Any other country would".

Unfortunately, if what you said was true, Scotland would have said that to England when the oil was found - we didn't, more's the pity.

Sorry, #145

#133 Peter writes
"West Coast Labour is now in its end game, the rest of the animals want their farm back, that is what people like you do not get - its not about the SNP it is something far more visceral for many of us and if it takes the SNP gets us their then that's how it has to be."

I hope that what you express is part of a wider feeling and realisation in the West that basically these guys have been conning you for decades and laughing their heads off in private and in public when they get to the Lords. The five Glasgow list seats for the SNP at the last election shows that you wish to join with the rest of Scotland and reclaim our democracy - the SNP is the only show in town to do this. Things will never change under London Labour.

AM2,

How on earth am I being "dishonest"?

You don't appear to be the same AM2 as the one last night, he/she was warm and friendly!!! Didn't he/she brief you at the shift change?

AM2 - I don't have the figures to refute your claims that London subsidises the rest of the UK, although, it is entirely possible, given the pre-eminence of its financial sector; however, I don't think that is a good argument for keeping the Union. Its certainly no different to what happens in Europe with flows of money to less affluent areas. I also think that the regions are sacrificed to feed London - the further away from London you are, the poorer you are - that is not a healthy, never mind equitable, way to run a country. Look at Cornwall, Northern Ireland, North West Wales, North West Scotland - they are the poorest parts of the UK and suffer because of the centralisation of everything towards London. If we were multicentric, this effect would be much reduced. That is an excellent reason for not keeping the Union.

# 157 Listen pal the sleekit English hid the truth of our oil from us for forty years until the freedom of information act. that was not what I asked AM2 I SUSPECT THAT HE HAS NO ANSWER TO THAT ONE.

Richard:

Cmon, tell me you want independence because you want to be free from the union for reasons of national pride and a sense of belonging. Thats great, I accept that and support you.

Tell me you want it because Scotland will be become a more affluent society than she already is and your speaking sh1te.

Cmon, partnerships are more dynamic. Business operates more successfully in partnerships, as do people. So try and pull the wool over someone else eyes. Independence will offer fat cat Scottish politicians more power, but it wont offer the man on the street a better life. You know it and so do I

"fiscal federalism"

Is this a joke? Why can't they just give us the freedom? What is Labour scared of?

167 - Are you denying that there are partnerships between Sweden and Denmark? Netherlands and Belgium?

Media - Scotland had numerous trading and cultural partnerships before the act of Union. Afterwards, we found ourselves at war with many of our old partners due to England's imperialist ambitions.

AM2,

It wasn't meant to be funny!!! Some of the other AM2 contributers are able to keep up a certain continuity, but you seem to be a bit on the 'spikey' side!!!

#160 AM2
"In the recent FSB survey of OECD31 countries, Scotland was ranked six places above Ireland for education."

Research from the World Economic Forum that ranked 125 countries puts Ireland in 6th place and the UK in 29th. Not exactly "lousy public services" for education atleast. Different ranking show different things. Even on ur own stat, 6 places above does not make us great and them lousy as u suggest and that is why i suggest u are being disingenious here.

url http://www.ft.com/cms/s/e75e94c0-5df7-11db-82d4-0000779e2...

#159 -Peter, i am more concerned what is happening here in Edinburgh under the unholy alliance between SNP and the Lib Dems who have shown their intentions by thie intentions to decimate education to the most vulnerable by cutting £9m from services, closing schools and nurseries -all assets paid for by the people of Edinburgh. What is your excuse for this? Or do you l have your yellow and black glasses stuck to your face?

Wendy Alexander is leader of the Labour Group in Holyrood NOT the leader of the Scottish Labour Party.

#169 Thats a red card offence pal - off you go!

You are not permitted to mention the following on these boards:

Denmark, Norway, Sweden, The Netherlands or Ireland.

You are absolutely not permitted to make comparisons between Scotland and these other similarly sized successful northern European nations.

In the interests of good support please restrict your comparisons to small bampot European nations like Albania and eh.........

The use of Ireland to refute or support independence is something of a red herring - the Irish have based their success on a low tax, low regulation economy - as far as I can see neither Labour nor the SNP support such policies.

#180

AM2 if this economic growth continues are you willing to conceed that you were mistaken in your judgement of the SNP's economic management?

As most reasonable people would conceed central banks, global economic sentiment (and dodgy American mortgage products) are the largest drivers of economic prosperity or failure

sedov; your stupidity cannot be allowed to go unpunished. The £9m deficit was run up under the previous labour administration in Edinburgh, NOT, I repeat NOT, under the SNP/Lib Dems. As usual with you, you spout utter nonsense. Please, tell me you don't believe me...

#183

Also it would seem reasonable that faster growth is more likely from a lower base - sort of an exponential function perhaps.

#183

Lets cut the half truths pal, you are not an impartial observer 'not a unionist, not a nationalist' - your comments are overwhelmingly unionist, trying to suggest otherwise is nonsense, please spare us, this isn't the Larkhall Advertiser.

Ireland was held up as an example of what would happen to Scotland 20 years ago if we went it alone -doom and gloom.

In 1991 Ireland had a GDP per capita that was 70% of that of Scotlands. It is shameful that we are now told by 'I am Unionist' that no comparisons can be drawn to Ireland, god forbid the Irish being an example to us.

#173 AM2
You are just like the rest of your countrymen when face with something that they cant answer try to twist things with statistics There are statistics and pure damned lies. The truth about Scotland's oil (England has none not significant anyway) has only just came to light because of the secrets act, that is fact. I asked you why does England hang on to our apron strings. If we are such a millstone round their necks why do they not say go!!!!

166. AM2.

And all that to occur while the SNP is at the helm :)
Where is the 5000 pound black hole? Worrying times for some....

Media1 seems to think Scotland makes "up one fourth of the whole" as opposed to a 10th. Indeed he is talking through his "whole" ;). Maybe this difference accounts for the black hole labour goes on about?

AM2 ;) that was some cut and paste mission!!

I don't suppose you'd have links to figures showing differential rates of growth between London and the peripheral regions?! Everywhere has grown in the last 5-8 years. My thought is that growth will be given a genuine boost if Scotland were independent, as Edinburgh would create a new central point. Look at the boost the Parliament gave to the Edinburgh economy.

That to one side, I'd be interested to know if you think Wendy has been given a poison chalice? And, here is another fairly wide thing - if Wendy is SO good, why isn't she in Westminster??! :))

#189

Your post has been duly cut, pasted and recorded - in reverence to yourself.

I look forward to wheeling it out in 12 months.

Please supply postal address I will send a hat for you to eat.

kind regards
DD

#188 Try reading my post - I said that you could not REFUTE or SUPPORT independence using Ireland as an example because you are not comparing like with like.

" Under their plans, Holyrood would also have the ability to borrow money on the international markets, which it cannot do at the moment.

Ms Alexander was supportive of the paper, and said she would back a Royal Commission to look into the case for this form of fiscal federalism "

There is a share of the British national debt ( £530 billion ) attributable to Scotland - say 10% ie £53 billion or more . So before you try and tap the debt markets for cash remember this existing debt will need to be serviced by an independent Scotland - and will have first call on the oil money .

Fiscal federalism is a major step . It means fiscal federalism for England too - which would meet with widespread approval in England .

Rothay 132 is right when he says
"There are two camps in England - "the don't care if you go or stay" and the "independence for England" .
The old Scottish /SNP myth of a wicked England scheming to "hang on " to Scotland is just that - a myth .

'New language for Labour' Yeah it means we have to change, because if we cling onto the same old crap, the BNP will be getting more votes than us.
"As Scottish Labour leader, I will be uncompromising in my support for change' funny how an election defeat changes the mind set alittle.
Like Salmond said 'there is a wind of change throughout Scottish politics'
And not before time.

#190
There is no logical answer to your questions other than it is an altruistic act.

Yes, it does seem a little unlikely.

'Thank you England'

Bottom line is that Scotland will NOT be more affluent following independence. She will NOT be more productive and better governed, thats just wishful thinking and political propaganda!

So lets stop pretending here

'I am a Unionist'

Ireland is not small, culturally similar, northern European nation - no?

Perhaps you could tell point out which countries we should be comparing ourselves to? ... please,do tell......

#167 Media 1

Of course Scotland would be more affluent as an independent country. I have rarely seen a case of the benefits of "economies of scale" working in practice. Costs of running small coutries are much more easily controlled than with larger ones. Just look at our national UK debt now compared to when Brown first took over as Chancellor. £350bn is now over £1,000bn if you include "off-balance-sheet" debt.

And what is all this "partnerships are more dynamic" rubbish. That is a fatuous and meaningless statement. More dynamic than what? Do you even know what dynamic means?

Incidently, just because I am opposing your viewpoint does not mean that I am talking sh1te.

192. connaughtboy. Funny I thought she had started blushing from embarrasment at the script Gordy had given her to read out. What you dont see ais that she has both hands, fingers crossed.

#202

That's pure conjecture - bottom line

202; who are you, Mystic Meg. I agree with you on footballing issues; but politics? No...

#179 AM2 "So which of us is being disingenuous?!"
I included the url so that u could see the source and it would not mislead. It was what came up when i googled for international rankings and seemed a good source. The ranking did not include scotland itself in this piece by the FT.

u tended to ingnore my central point in this. scandanian countries with their higher tax rates are richer and ireland with its lower is also richer. there is not reason to presume that u need to choose one or the other. some way in the middle is also possible. the uk chooses some middle way. in that way i think u are wrong. (although i personally favour a low tax model)

my point about ireland is that u said they had lousy public services. i pointed out in education this is not necessarily so. on other like transport it is historical as it was a poor country. u seem to miss this in ur reply. i think if u ask people in scotland there will be a perception that we have poor public services transport, health, education and law and order. so saying that someelse is also has bad public services is hardly an arguement for not changing.

198. AM2, “Break up Britain, end up broke”.

Seems clear they were REALLY talking about Labour party finances, what with the 16 million pound debt and everything. But hey, Labour are financial experts, they must be right.

#203 You just don't get it do you? You comapre yourself to simlar size countries that have similar economic structures and policies. Comparing Scotland to the low tax, low regulation model is not realistic because those are not the policies that would be implemented in an independent Scotland - not unless the SNP have done a somersault over their economic policies?

The closest I can think would be Norway but even then we would need to take account of the fact that they are outwith the EU.

The idea that Scotland would be better off as an independent nation DOES NOT stem from economic facts, but rather pride and hope.

#163 Hezza

Fact is that no-one has the complete set of figures to prove who subsidises whom. A couple of things that gives us some clues are:

1) If Scotland is so much of a subsidy junkie, why is Westminster so against independence?

2) Why was the McCrone report suppressed in 1975 until this year. McCrone was quite clear that Scotland's wealth would be an embarrasment.

Hezza, don't engage in a statistical/arithmetical war with the likes of AM2 and his ilk. He is using heavility politicised data. Wait until some better information is available.

Having said all that, my gut feel is that Scotland would be economiclly better off on its own.

#212 Media 1

You don't have the economic facts. No-one does. Yet!

#211 u accuse 203 "You just don't get it do you?"

but seem to miss the point urself. most of the small north european countries are richer than scotland. why? and what can scotland do about it? why have we underperformed? saying u cannot compare urself to ireland is silly. it is only be seeing the different economic models and the advantages and disadvantages of the other richer countries can we try to turn our poor performance around.

"Comparing Scotland to the low tax, low regulation model is not realistic because those are not the policies that would be implemented in an independent Scotland "
that is just daft. it really depends on which parties scotland votes for after independence. there is no reason scotland could not become a low tax model if it wanted.

"not unless the SNP have done a somersault over their economic policies" they have advocate low corportation and business taxes that are based on the succesful irish model. as 4 regulation ireland did not opt out the social chapter.

#192 - Photo caption should be "Wendy Alexander demonstrates the twins' reaction to having 'the very hungry caterpillar' read to them at bedtime for the 3rd time this week"

#211 NaUorN

Have you read the McCrone report into the economics of independence?

There's a copy here:

http://www.snpyouth.org/documents/mccronereport.pdf

In it he argues that an Scotland would not only be in chronic surplus as a result of oil revenues, but it's currency would become one of the strongest in Europe making it a magnet for international investment.

He also suggests that in order to prevent the Scottish currency becoming too comptitive, a number of measures could be adopted, including lending to England and other nations in and out of the EU, putting the country in an extremly powerful position within the EU.

The fact that Scotland also now finds itself in possession of 25% of the EU's renewable energy potential (and particularly now) does nothing but make an independent Scotland's position more prosperous.

#211

Ok, you are suggesting that we can reasonably compare ourselves to Norway?

I find it quite bizarre that you see no similarities between Scotland and Ireland.

My point is that you compare like with like - cultural, social and historic experiences point to likely future outcomes.

Think of Belgium and Holland, Denmark and Sweden, Latvia and Lithuania etc etc

If you disagree with this you are disagreeing with generally accepted observations, you are also expressly saying that the Scots are not as able as the Irish.

#183 NaUoN

What about the SNP policy of cutting corportion tax? Or doesn't that count in your book?

#212 Media 1 "The idea that Scotland would be better off as an independent nation DOES NOT stem from economic facts, but rather pride and hope."

Exactly what do u base this on in economic terms. In terms of the small northern european countries we have performed poorly. Our gdp growth has been poor abosolutely over the last 30yrs averaging below 2% per yr. And absolutely in comparison to these countries.

If u are near the bottom of the heap, and others with a different structure have outperformed u, maybe it u, who should start asking why?

But forget independence, lets focus on Scotland's main issues and support Alexander

AM2

Are you feeling alright?

Posting stats that support the claim that London is a bloated monster is quite strange.

I'm sure you have had a glance at 'Scotching The myth'
do you honestly think that without London the rest of the UK would be an economic basket case - a la Scotland style?

#212
Pride and hope eh? I remember before the election you posted that you were going to the polling booth and I quote 'proudly vote Labour'. Well you are certainly an expert on forlorn hopes now

#185 to the misnamed Seeker of the Truth. Of course it was the policies of Labour that has caused the £9m deficit and if they were in power I would be protesting against them just as strongly as I did against Monklands - -but your ignorance lies in not grasping the point - which is that the SNP promised it would not cut services no matter who was responsible -after all the SNP reversed the Monklands decision caused by Labour -so whats so different about this one? Stop making excuses -the SNP are supposed to make a difference not enact Browns cuts!!!! so much for the truth.

#206 Dougie

It's worse than conjecture, it sounds distinctly like hysteria and propaganda to me. Along the lines of "say it often enough and loud enough and it will be believed".

Notice the absence of facts. Why? Simple, because as I said in an earlier post, the complete set of financials are not available. Comparison with similar European countries strongly indicates that Scotland would become significantly more prosperous than at present.

#228 davie:

You will reap what you sow! If independence is what you want then go for it mate.........

AM2.

Don't you realise, yet, that your consistently negative comments are doing nothing for your cause. Even The Paisley Girl realises that NuLab. will have to appear more positive.

Your constant contention that Scotland requires London's (you word) benificence.

Your perpetual inferrence that Scottish, mainly SNP, politicians are economically illiterate.

Your continuous attempts to shoehorn Scotland into a particular economic model, whether it be Irish, Norwegian or any other. While doing so, emphaising the negatives of these economies.

Your negative propaganda is failing.

It is my fervent hope that you, and your acolytes; Media1, Citizen Gordon inter alia, continue to comment on these Fora. It will be an enlightenment for new posters which will undoubtedly lead to a further erosion of the Unionist vote, in future elections.

I eargerly await your attempted ridicule. Or, perhaps your other, well known, tactic; a tactical withdrawal from the thread.

If wishes were horses...

Ireland was so poor in the late 70's that they were forced to give tax holidays to multinational companies just to provide employment for their people. This and EU subsidies and grants and the consequent property and finance 'quays' boom has led to a fantastic consumer spree which is unsustainable.

Why did they do this? Because they had no alternative - they had no natural resources unlike Scotland.

#151 Media 1
Its that great here in Scotland, you live in tax exile in South Africa!
I find the rubbish you spout unbelievable
You dont believe in Scotland or its potential
You prefer to have Scotland, which is a nation in its own right tied to a Union, that has been unpopular ever since it was set up 300 hundred years ago
Scotland DOES NOT have access to 'to riches beyond her wildest dreams'
Suggest you lay of the Gin & tonics as your becoming dillusional

The general public are only familiar with Wendy Alexander in the context of her histrionics in the Section 28 fiasco when, despite the fact that there was no mention of it in Scottish Labour's pre-election manifesto, its repeal emerged as a top priority notwithstanding the fact that the only poll conducted among the total electorate showed that 65% of the electorate were not interested at all in the subject and, of those who did have an opinion, 90% voted for retention, with votes exceeding the total cast for ALL Labour MSPs, only to be completely ignored by the "People's Party".

#215 AM2

Somewhat disingenuous since you have no way of knowing what the GVA for Scotland would be after independence. The whole point of this argument is that many people believe that Scotland's per capita GVA would increase substantially post independence.

Ask your self why London has such a high GVA and whether it is really there that the Union benefit is most apparent.

#226 AM2 with regard to debt and inflation - i personally thought ireland was silly to join the euro when it did (although i support the euro in principle), as it was growing at a very high rate of growth while the rest of europe was not. economically i think they would have been better letting its fast growth run it course and join at a more sustainable level. punt was probably too low for the strenght of the irish economy. having said that it has continued to grow strongly and perfrom well since they have joined the euro although i take ur point that they have structural problems particularly debt.

high house prices can be rectified by increased supply something that seemed to be happening. most of the problem is the transformation from a poor housing stock to a good one. also by transferring more wealth/jobs away from dublin to cork etc.

in regards to inflation they seemed to have attitude that this can be managed by exposing the economy to international competition. inflation really is a problem if it leads to wages etc being too high and therefore making it interationally uncompetitive (even if they do try to compete in the skilled market.) from my experience wages are not that high. in my own experience in the It market, there tends to be tons of jobs in ireland over the last 10yrs compared to scotland but salaries tend to be lower.

Labour have no intention of changing
The statements from Wendy Alexander, who is now the Leader of the Scottish Labour party in Holyrood (not the leader of the Scottish Labour party, subtle difference!) are as hollow as her predecesor.
She is giving sound bite statements, which are pure 100% London Labour spin in content. This whole thing with Des Browne is a farce. Either he is stating Labour policy, in which case Wendy is with the help of London Labour trying to pull the wool over the voters eyes, or Des Browne was not stating policy, which means that this whole Des Browne versus Wendy thing is being made up by Labour to make Wendy look good.
If The Labour Party in Scotland truelly believe in Scotland and recognise there mistakes and support the the will of the people, then the Labour Party in Scotland has to completely break free of Labour in London and be a stand alone entity, in addition Des Browne should resign or be sacked and the Scottish office closed along with the post of Secretary of State for Scotland. These things will not happen as Labour is not genuine about what they say

#238, Connaughtboy.

Just like me, too late.

It's shift change. Debrief, contact the acolytes. Return with cut&paste in 1 to 2 hours.

His negativity attracts possitivity. Isn't it great?

#233 Frank it is not only AM2 who has tried to shoehorn the Scottish Economy into another model - some of your fellow nationalists are as guilty of that as he is.

What may work in one country may not necessarily work here and vice versa. I'd rather see an economic assessment based on this country than another country. And that assessment should not be based on a report that is 30 years out of date.

That being said - any decision should not be based on economics alone - for me the political and social factors are as much if not more important.

Fib Dems HQ London, Tory HQ in... London. Hod on I think I see a trend here. Labour HQ ... it's not London is it. Wendy dear HQ means this is your headquarters. You phone up and they give you your orders. HQ is where the Generals like Big Goggsy hang out. Your Scottish Labour outpost can do sweet FA on its own. For Labour to change it would need nothing short of a "revolution".

Conchita Wendy, Big Gordy he says no.

#242, Not A UN.............................

I agree will all of you post, and said as much during the election.

Scotland has its own particular place in the world. My wish is that it takes that place sooner rather than later.

#216 Alan

Can you tell me which political party in Scotland is going to implement the low tax, low regulation policies that have been successful in Ireland?

Or which one is going to cut public expenditure and employment to Irish levels?

As I have said before it is horses for courses and what works in Ireland may not work here. That is not to say that an independent Scotland could not be successful but any analysis should be done with our circumstances in mind.

#242,

Further, the McCrone Report is 30yrs. out of date but, considering current reserves, being exploited and to be exploited and current prices, it still has some reasonance.

#242 NaNoaU

"I'd rather see an economic assessment based on this country than another country."

This information exists in Westminster, although it has never been made available in a complete or clear manner in order to allow it to give a clear picture of the Scottish economy.

The McCrone Report may be 30 years out of date. It is worth considering that the Westminster parties continued to argue that Scotland could not afford to go it alone, until this report was forced into the public domain 30 years later.

It's also worth considering that the parties who are preventing the release of the information that relates to the Scottish economy are the same parties that prevented the release of the McCrone Report, while arguning the opposite of its findings.

#246 I have no problem with many of the assumptions that McCrone made at the time. It would still be helpful though if a more up-to-date analysis were cited - is there no other empirical evidence available? And if so why the obsession with McCrone?

Moreover, I would certainly appreciate there being serious research into a post-oil Scottish economy - be it as part of the UK or as an independent country.

#247 I agree - if any inforamtion is available it should not be supressed.

#245 "As I have said before it is horses for courses and what works in Ireland may not work here."

you are correct in ur statement. that is because economics is not an exact science. u cannot blindly copy anyone else. but u do have to learn from others. it remains that scotland has performed poorly over the last 30yrs with growth less than 2%. and other small northern european countries have done better than us. (we also perform below uk trend growth)

so that is the problem that has to be address, we have done poorly and others have done relatively well.

because they have been successful as independent countries does not mean we would.

that leads to the question of why they have done better (some with high tax models and others like ireland with low).

the problem with the unionist argument is they do not seem to have answers to that question.

#242 NaUoaN

I would also add that the McCrone Report is 30 years old, rather than being 30 years out of date.

As Frank has said, it still has significant importance. Not only because its findings will continue to be relevant as long as there are oil revenues to collect, but it is a reminder of Westminster's instinct of self preservation, regardless of the cost to Scotland or anywhere else.

However, I do agree that every attempt should be made to establish a much clearer position of Scotland's economic position, that identifies the true scale of north sea revenues and that identifies where Scottish taxes are being collected by centres in England and therefore wrongly allocated to England.

#247 By concentrating on the economic aspects of independence some unionists are in danger of painting themselves into a corner.

Just a wee question for the pro WENDY camp.

Can anyone tell me what Wendy's being doing since she stuck out her petted lip, tucked her tail between her legs and wibbled out of politics abandoning Hollyrood in 2002?

#201 AM2
I could never in a million years be like your countrymen Im not as fly as that lot. How true Gioncani the Mafia godfather said of the English in the late 60s and I quote "WE ARE ONLY AMATEURS COMPARED TO THEM" This is from an article in the Readers Digest . Why dont you answer the straightforward question I asked you.

#250 Alan - I don't think any political party has seriously addressed the problems of the Scottish economy:

* industrial decline
* rural underdevelopment
* urban decay
* social deprivation
* poor health and nutrition
* over-reliance on the public sector for employment

and so on.

What is needed is a radical rethink of economic policy in Scotland - because it seems to me that what is being done now is not working. More of the same in an independent Scotland is not the answer either - if Scotland is to develop all parties need to examine their economic policies - that is as true for the SNP as it is for Labour, the Lib Dems or the Tories.

#256 NaUoaN

I think it is fair that the SNP, at least, have indicated with their establishment of the Economic Advisory Committee that they are taking a fresh approach to the matter.

...fair to say... that should have read

#253 - daniel

Brownian economics? Why not trying investing the Billions spent on illegal wars and the billions earmarked for new weapons of mass destruction on the Clyde on projects that anyone in Scotland supports

Todays AM2 was a right pain!! I hope tomorrows AM2 is a bit better!!

#215 - AM2

Do the "sub-regional" figues for Scotland include Oil/Gas?

of course they don't, are Labour gov's figures...)

#257 I hope the committee does take a fresh approach but it does need politicians to act on this advice. Blair had a habit of creating committees and commissions to look at issues - then ignoring their findings!!

The EAC may tell the FM and the Scottish parliament some unpalatable truths - I just hope that real action is taken to combat the problems I outlined above. By the way - some of the unpalatable truths will as unpalatable to Labour as to the SNP!!

#262, Not A Un..........................

A lot of unpalatable truths WILL have to be faced in this Scottish parliament but, will the Unionist parties have the bottle to support the Exec. in carrying these through?

Vis-a-vis Edinburgh, will the Unionist parties have the intelligence to scrap the Trams?

#256 ur list are some of the problems but not the cause of the problems and not solutions that can be brought in.

i believe the problems stem from not taking decisions from scotland but for the south of england. from a london first economic strategy (remember reading the evening standard jsutifying why it was the right economic strategy for britain). having a uk state that is extremely centralised.

if scotland was independent if the government fails it would be voted out. in the 80s while scotland was struggling "loads of money" kept voting tory only turning on them after the recession in the early 90s effected the south after ignoring the much harsher recession in the north in the 80s.

the uk media gives the impression britain is doing well economically. people therefore think it doing well but it masks scotlands relatively poor performance.

fast transport links with london things that should have come about because of the union have not.

as such polices for scotland by scotland are more likely to address the issues.
1)fiscal autonomy - would allow lower corporation tax
2)if low business start ups are a problem a new fical regime could be introduced to help
3)when the movies rob roy and braveheart were made we could not compete with ireland for their fiscal regime.
4)scotland should compete and niche itself to get more of the financial jobs and related stuff from london.
5)niche scotland economy
6)poor performing governments voted out
7)improve scotland transport links (with competition policy residing in edinburgh i would like to see glasgow and edinburgh competing with each other rahter than being run as a virtual monopoly).
8)consider the super casino thing - why did scotland have to compete with english cities. if it was right for scotland we should have the power to introduce them (not arguing for them morally)
9)we can fund trains but do not control there structure (daft

#264 glasgow and edinburgh competing / should have been airports

263

I think they would be happy to support initiatives that are not purely party political or designed to antagonise Westminster. It benefits everyone to have a goverment that can actually deliver it's policies.

#226 AM2
is very informative - and shows us how careful we should be in making assumptions based on comparisons with Ireland in regard to what may or may not happen if & when Scotland were to become independent. Ireland received (s)a massive annual bung from EU powers determined to get Ireland on to the Euro Powers drip feed and wean it away from dependence on England. Now they're hooked let's see them reduce they're debts to sensible levels. - preferably on a level tax playing field.
I shall tune into the AM2 channel again in future despite edging towards the SNP. ?

#266, Davey Smith.

Unfortunately, there could very well be decisions to be taken, in the interest of the people of Scotland, that would conflict with Westminster's view of the world.

How would you expect the Unionist parties to vote in these cases?

#236 Edward: Yawn

Cmon lad, Scotland is wealthier now than at anytime in her history. Independence will not bring us additional wealth, if anything it will send us backwards. But thats not the point.

The point is, go for independence if you must, but dont spout the nonsense that its because we will be better off because thats bullsh!t...Do it for pride, do it for self governing status, do it for whatever you must, but dont tell me its being done to improve Scotland's position..Bollocks!

98

Please be under no illusion.The SNP are a party committed to independence ,and unlike the crap Labour tell you ITS NOT A SECRET AGENDA! Its the absolute opposite!

It is ,as the name clearly implies their raison d’être.
Of course that is what they are doing currently,working within the powers that exist, trying to build a case for independence.

Whether you support independence or not,that is a legitimate position for a party of independence to take!Indeed its the only possible one!
However please bear in mind :
Independence can only come about if the majority wish it to be so.The SNP have never suggested otherwise.Just as the current majority wish of remaining within the UK has been accepted by the SNP for years without quibble,so should the majority wish to independence be enacted, if and when that becomes the declared and unambiguous wish of the electorate.
United Nations would recognise this I understand since we are a former nation,and that is an automatic recognition of nationhood.What Westminster says has no bearing here.
The level of support for change does of course require monitoring constantly and where there is reason to believe that the wishes of the people have changed we should measure this ,in accordance with the wishes of Westminster,and of course they cannot say this, and then refuse a referendum.That is clearly an insult to ones intellect (or we should hang our heads in shame).

The position of the SNP is as fair as it can ever be.The position of the Labour party and Liberal Democrats is disgusting and certainly not democratic.

#266 Davey

Is it not a sign of how compromised the unionist opposition parties are that they cannot tell the difference between policies designed to benefit Scotland's interests and the view that they are intended to antagonise Westminster?

At the same time, the opposition parties accuse the SNP of being populist, but that only means that the Scottish public tend to agree with the SNP's position. They can do nothing other than specualte whether the intention behind these policies was to serve or appease the public.

The fact that the SNP are receiving increasing support from the Scottish public for policies that are viewed by the opposition as antagonistic to Westminster only highlights how much that Westminster is becoming less relevant and more out of touch with Scotland.

# 267 reduce THEIR debts -sorry

Westminster's view of the world? I am unclear to what this implies. The goverment at Westminster would, I believe, want Scotland to be succesful and have a good administration. They would want a strong economy and well-educated, healthy population. I do not see where the conflict is. If the SNP wish to focus on issues outside of these core themes, they may well entice the union parties into conflicts. Hopefully this won't happen and they will be focused on improving Scotland and continuing its success.

267, Armstrong Cowan.

As I have suggested in previous post, AM2 is a very selective poster; any ecomomic unit chosen for comparison is negatively highlighted.

It is obvious that Scotland has its own unique situation and, therefore, requires its own unique economic programme. Most comparisons, I believe, are being used to illustrate the relative success of similarly sized N.European countries, compared with Scotland.

It is my hope that Scotland is in a situation to apply it own unique Economic programme, sooner rather than later.

269
The gap between rich and poor is greater under this government and the Governments own figures confirm this.
You say you live in Stockbridge or is it Comely Bank.

The New Town of Edinburgh may be doing okay,and where I am certainly is, but that is NOT typical of most Scots who are closer to the poverty level than ever, no thanks to the removal of the 10p band.YOU are perfectly well aware of this!

#267 "Ireland received (s)a massive annual bung from EU powers determined to get Ireland on to the Euro Powers drip feed and wean it away from dependence on England."
EU subisdies has nothing to do with england. The subsidy mechanism is available to all eu countries. of the old 12 greece and portuagal received most. spain was another recipient.

"Now they're hooked let's see them reduce they're debts to sensible levels. - preferably on a level tax playing field. "
if u read am2 he quoted "While public debt is low, private sector debt (mortgages and credit cards) is very high." that means that government debt (public debt) is low. it is private debt that is high. so i cannot see ur point.

269 Media 1

You are actually wrong about that.

Well we could debate definitions and no doubt most individual people have more money now than they did 50 or 100 years ago - but you could say the same about any western European country.

But in terms of how well we are doing as a country compared to other countries - no, we are not in a better position now. In fact we are slipping behind our competitors.

That's why we really need to focus on what Scotland can do to become more successful.

Everyone knows where the SNP stands on that one - very clear message: to become more successful Scotland needs to become independent.

Others obviously have a different veiw - it is up to them to set out how Scotland can become more successful, more competitive, more prosperous, without being independent.

271

I would disagree slightly with your descrpition of a populist policy. If a policy is popular with the public I do not think it is necessarily in the public's interest. A goverment is meant to govern as well as serve. They should not be too sensitive to the public's perception of their performance. I agree if they have a policy that is in our interests and it happens to be popular, that is a good thing. It should not be a key factor in policy decisions. I do not feel that we have seen a decision that has been taken with this approach.. yet. The time will come and we shall see if the SNP can negociate building support and going against public opinion for the good of the nation. These things happen in government.

#274, Davey Smith.

An answer that would truely make AM2 envious.

#256 you make the correct analysis but seem at a loss to offer solutions. It is obvious even to most rabid supporter of capitalism that all is not well. We have an increasing divide between the rich and poor in a relative sense in GB and in an extreme sense in many other countries. We have continuing war and terrorism under the various guises of religious fundementalism and imperialism. We have rising numbers of alchoholics, drug addicts, vandals and unhappy and overweight people. Our civil liberties are being eroded as we speak. Most private housing is out of reach for the common man and social housing is a rarity because of the sell off of our assets for short term gains. No amount of tinkering or declarations of independence is going to change things fundementally and those who thing nationalism ( like #264) is the answer are seriously deluding themselves and are actually harming the cause of equality and a better life for all. The world is multi national and is run by around 50 big companies and there is nought Salmond can do about it, now or any time in the future. It takes international solotutions to take these companies on and that is why I am an international socialist joining the and building up support in every country including south america,the US and even the now champions of capitalism, China for a peaceful transistion to a planned economy . Nothing else will save this planet, that is my conclusion and solution. As Karl Marx said, its either socialism or barbarism.

274

Conflict is not what it is about - that is just Labour hype.

What independence is about is giving Scotland a competitive advantage and making the most of every opportunity.

Of course Westminster is not against that in principle but it is never going to be at the top of their agenda either is it?

If we want a government whose main objective is the furtherance of Scottish interests and maximising the opportunities for Scottish success it has to be a Scottish government doing that.

That't it. It is that simple.

First thing an independent Scotland needs to do is scrap the dole system, make stricter rules at school and treat prisoners like prisoners. Would that be too much to ask?

256

As far as I know the SNP is the only party which has an economic policy for Scotland.

None of the rest have.

Have you read it?

It is called Let Scotland Flourish.

#279, Davey Smith.

You restated, in this post, your #266.

You avoid answering me in your #274.

Could you now reply to my #268?

271

Very fair observations.

Of course the Numpty party will tell you that the SNP are populist ,and they are just trying to get themselves re-elected, so they can sneak an independent nation state through the democratic front door!Beware of democracy it can damage the Numpty party!
Its far better to adopt their position of insisting upon a referendum (but then they refuse to grant one)which means you cannot have the democratic right to choose, (even though this is afforded to any nation as far as I can see by United Nations aggreements) .

Yes populist is indeed a dirty trick to play. Imagine having a government which is accountable to the people ,and recognises their sovereignty above any other.Nasty nasty Nats !

We should return to the good old days where the government does what benefits the majority .(The majority who are of course living outwith Scotland ie )

Doesnt make any difference who runs the local branch of Labour in Scotland, they are always going to have to tow the line to the party in London. Wendy can say what she wants about being 'her own leader' but if forced to chose between the best decision for Scotland or what Broon tells her to do she has to obey the boss. The fundamental difference between the SNP and the other 3 is that the SNP are only answerable to the Scottish electorate while Wendy et al have to consult Brown and Browne before they do anything.

The Scottish Executive is doing exactly that. I fail to see what the conflict is. Surely your reasons for wishing independence are for many other reasons other than the fact that within the UK, you feel the people in one particular region are no being given the same as everyone else. From my understanding we do quite well compared to the North of England. I think if we want to improve we should focus on health and education rather than the consitution. If we already recieve more public spending per person, isn't it a shame that we aren't showing a relative improvement. Any Scottish Executive should be busy focusing on this issue as opposed to worrying about the constitution. How much more money do we need? Maybe we should focus on how the adminstration is going to spend what it has.

286

I apologise if I was unclear. I meant to say that the union parties would support initiatives if they were not purely party political, not designed to antagonise Westminster and were in the interests of the Scottish people. You may disagree.

#272 Ayrshire Scot

Fandabidozaaaaaaaaaaargh

287

I don't know what you're on. Please read carefully and re-consider. Try and use correct terminology if you want to be taken seriously. The Numpty party is not very grown-up.

289

Scotland is not a region of England so there is no point comparing Scotland to regions of England.

Saying that independence is about focusing on 'the constitution' is pretty meaningless.

It is about the economy, tax, benefits, pensions and a host of other factors which help determine health and educational outcomes.

So imposing a self-limiting embargo on policy is a nonsense. How can we tackle health inequalities effectively without tackling poverty? How can we tackle poverty efefctively without tackling our poorly performing economy and the high level of benefit dependency?

Sedov

Karl Marx may have had an axe to grind - a constituency to convince. He had his chance but human nature (greed & corruption) let him down.

But capitalism is creaking at the seams...

So the logical solution is to join the International Carbon Friendly Party (ICFP). I am working tirelessly to build up this party. Only this party will provide the solutions this world needs etc. etc. and on and on...

In the Microcosm that is Edinburgh, what should the Unionist parties do about the TRAMS now that Social Sevices and Education are under such great pressure.

The TRAMS decision was nothing pore than political maschismo against the Exec.

#296.

Intended for Davey Smith.

"pore" should read "more".

#289 Davey

"I think if we want to improve we should focus on health and education rather than the consitution."

This is one of the problems with devolution. Health decisions do not take place in isolation, they are affected by other decisions.

An example of this is the Council Tax Benefit issue. Decisions about how local taxation is collected is devolved to Scotland, but (bizarrely) Council Tax Benefit is not. So we currently have a tension between Westminster and Holyrood. Those who would prefer not to risk antagonising Westminster would limit and restrict the choices they already have devolved, while those who uphold Scotland's interests raise the issue with Westminster inorder for the devloved powers to be properly managed.

But these cross departmental (devolved versus reserved) tensions will always arise, and the only way to avoid them is for full control.

In short, if you want full control of decisions on health, you must have full control of all decisions relating to your country.

“Ms Alexander said she wanted to "strengthen the financial accountability" of politicians, indicating she supported the transfer of new financial powers to the Scottish Parliament. “

Is it interesting that Wendy (the mouth) Alexander is craving financial “accountability”.

Possibly most of us would imagine this to mean, that should Scotland ever be daft enough to vote in another labour administration, that this Labour Executive would be called to account and answerable for their gross misuse of our hard earned cash. That they would find themselves out of a job and having to pay back from their own resources, the massive amounts that they succeed in wasting.

Sadly though it is still the same old story, she wants more financial power for politicians to take even more of our hard earned cash without our consent, and without any responsibility/accountability on the part of the politicians to use it wisely.

Same old story, same old Labour!

Has anyone else noted that Labour have now had two unopposed changes of leadership in the past few months? Democracy at work eh!

Noticed her side kick Iain Gray wants affordable housing to be built. Presumably these will be known as WENDY houses. This from the man who built a railway station and forgot to get trains to stop at it.

Regardless of the economics the simple truth is that we have never had scottish income and spending presented seperately. It has always been hidden through obuscation and dodgy accounting and made up extra regio territories. Al capone couldnt hide revenue better!

McCrone may have been 30 years ago but same the obfuscation theft and lies were perpetuated into this century. How cany anyone in their right mind believe anythinf the unionists have to say on revenue after been proved pathalogical liars?

Even without oil why on earch would any intelligent person want such a band of criminal liars running the country? The unionists should have taken a fair share of the oil revenue and used it to transform Scotland. Instead they lied and said we are a basket case. Oil bailed out the UK in the 70s and 80s.

This is their track record record WITH oil, what kind of nightmare will we be in when its gone.
Where is the UK oil fund? - oops All spent on nuclear arms and war.
What is the UK doing now to ensure Scotlands economy is strong post Oil - Nothing.
What are they doing now to maximise production? limiting investment, high oil taxes and stopping sequestration projects etc.

Dont you just love UK government.

If we remain in the union we will almost certainly become the basket case we keep hearing about.

284. Media 1, cape town
Yes!
Next?

294

I did not refer to Scotland as a region of England. We are a country within the UK. I didn't mean to give that impression. I disagree that we cannot tackle these issues at the moment. I refuse to take the SNP line that we need more powers before they can take action. Why the delay? Do they not have enough money and ideas? Wendy will have plenty so they best gets their skates on.

296

The SNP agreed to the trams.

281. Sedov, Scotland
""..As Karl Marx said, its either socialism or barbarism..""
I'm tempted to quote Dr McCoy in Star Trek, but I won't.

Either socialism or barbarism?

I know, sometimes my eyes get bleary too and it's hard to tell.

299

I think the Health Department is quite capable of making decisions about our policy without having to raise the budget. You seem to suggest that unless they raise the money they cannot deliver the policies? Even the UK goverment must ask the treasury for its budget. What would change if the Health Department asked a Scottish Finance Department for money? I don't think it would make a difference to how the civil service delivers policy.

#304 Davey

The SNP did not agree to the Trams.

They agree that they had lost the vote (the only policy vote they have lost), but they restated their objections to it as it was passed and afterwards.

The resposibility for the Trams lies with Labour, Lib Dems and the Tories but not the SNP.

Media 1, cape town / 3:44pm 22 Aug 2007 #236

Cmon lad, Scotland is wealthier -----

Such certainty when the evidence is absolute in direct conflict. If nothing else the fact that London is so extraordinarily wealthy and powerful, at the expense of (mostly) Scotland, is enough to convince that soemthing is out of balance. Scotland will certainly be more wealthy as an independent/international nation because that condition stems the flow of wealth away from from it.

For other posts: The McCrone report is a turning point in our history, not because of its content but because of the reaction by the Centralist powers in London and their ability to coordinate the powers of the State to the advantage of london, and to the terrible disadvantage of Scotland, without a twinge of regret. It is called imperial entitlement.

I am confused!

Wendy Alexander is leader of the Labour Group in Holyrood NOT the leader of the Scottish Labour Party.

Can someone point out (poss. AM2/Media1) what is the Labour party organisational structure and what are they called?

Labour?
Labour Party in Holyrood?
Scottish Labour?
Welsh Labour?
English Labour?

It appears that the Labour party can even confuse the Scotsman as she is referred to as Leader of Scottish Labour when in fact she is not!

Please can the Editor or anyone clarify.

Thanks in advance.

#299 Davey

The Scottish Government have the devolved power over Health decisions. But it has not yet been given the power to borrow.

This means that decisions over the building of new hospitals (a health decision) is restricted.

Health decisions do not take place in islation from other departmental areas. And devolved policy decisions cannot be taken fully in Scotland's best interests in isolation from matters still reserved to Westminster.

From the article;-

Ms Alexander said she wanted to "strengthen the financial accountability" of politicians, indicating she supported the transfer of new financial powers to the Scottish Parliament.

Double speak for london cut back of the block grant, but we will be allowed to raise the shortfall by levying extra tax's

269. Media 1, cape town
I was going to... but somehow felt the will to live suddenly start draining away...

Are you for real or somebody at a really cute wind up?
I can't believe you are as thick as you appear to be making out.

btw Scotland(without oil)plc has a turnover exceeding that of eg Portugal, Austria, Greece, or New Zealand.

How on earth do those poor people manage on their own?

#309 - Jimmy Allsion, Labour party in Scotland former organiser, in his book talked about "the wallpaper resolution" - noting that Scottish labour couldn't even authorise new wallpaper in their headquarters without London HQ approval.

Of course, given "New" labour taste for £600 a roll hand-printed paper, could be as costly as the Tram project

300. Richard Lionheart, "WENDY houses" LOL.

I was also thinking:
Vote SNP - get independence
Vote Nu Scot. Labour - get Wendy dependence.
You decide!

I dont hear the punditds in the press remarking on what a U turn many of her statements are.

EG. At Election - nobody wants constitutional change they want the current powers to deliver. Now - Its THE biggest issue.

At election - Labour said to SNP and LD - you cant vary tax by more than 3%. Now - Lets have 7%.

Lying b@st@rds to the very end.

309. Peeablo, Brownistan
Good point.

They also insist that she is the first female to lead the Labour In Scotland Party.

I believe Helen Liddle(aye devolution, over my dead body) beat her to this honour before heading off into exile in Australia.

#291 - Norbert : could be that A Hungry Caterpillar chewed thru the beanstalk, explaining her obsession with the wee beastie

#315 - I see what you are getting at, but this is speculative, the true sex of Stalin's Granny was never established

#315 Livilion

Thanks, and that is a very good point.

But I'm still trying to find an answer to my question in #309 - even the Labour website is no help.

So what is Wendy Alexanders official role?

And what is the Labour party structure? Who is in charge? Where does the buck stop?

Please, any Labour members out there that can answer?

311. pehman, sussex
Strengthening the financial accountability of MSPs?
You don't think she means they're going to pass round the bunnet to raise the £19,000,000 the parliamentary Labour party is in the red by?

A whole new generation of Red Clydesiders? :-D

#281 Sedov - problem is socialism does not work. and i am talking about true socialism where the state own the means of production not social democracy.

one of the reasons socialist countries tend not to be democracies is given a choice after seeing it in action people vote it out. when it comes to civil liberties socialist countries are far worse than western european ones.

we saw what happened in the uk when it was the governement responsible for making cars. not good.
that is just an example. most of the technical innovations we have had is through the private sector (sometimes with goverment support) ie capitalism (whether liberal or social democratic versions). what would it be like if governments were making computers and all the technogical innovations.

socialism is fine if u want to live in the dark ages. because capitalism is not perfect does not mean in any way shape or form socialism is better.

"We have continuing war and terrorism under the various guises of religious fundementalism and imperialism."
what has this got to do with scotland economic performance or independence? much of the wars over the last century have been socialist driven soviet union cold war, national socialists in germany germany. but in truth wars are not about economic strategies but about lack of democracy throughout the world and some dodgy world leaders.

#305 Livvy - yes you would be good at quoting from sci-fi soaps -but have you read Capital?

303

Wendy knows as well as we do that we cannot solve many of our problems without the Scottish Parliament having powers which are currently reserved to Westminster.

She has now acknowledged that. That is, in fact, her big idea.

The debate is now going to move to which powers should be transferred from Westminster to the Scottish Parliament.

You don't seem to appreciate this. All of the parties now accept that the current devolved settlememt is inadequate.

The only issue is how far do we increase the powers of the Parliament - all the way to independence or do we find some halfway house such as fiscal federalism?

#318 Peeablo

It is very confusing.

The Labour website seems very uncertain of its description of her post.

The best I can find is Labour's "Holyrood Leader".

So, it would appear, as suspected, she has no influence over Labour MPs or MEPs in Scotland and is herself directly responsible to the Prime Minister.

319 Livilion,

What I think she means is that in the way local councils get their grants, they then have the power to level council tax to make up the shortfall in council spending.

It appears from the article that she is trying to turn the SP into a local council, so that the Scottish Government will HAVE TO levy tax's to make up for london cutbacks.

#307Talorthane

The SNP did not agree to the Trams.

They agree that they had lost the vote (the only policy vote they have lost), but they restated their objections to it as it was passed and afterwards.

The resposibility for the Trams lies with Labour, Lib Dems and the Tories but not the SNP.
___________________________________________________
Why did the Executive not Resign Call for an Election and let the people decide. After all The S.N.P have so much support it would have been a no brainer

#321 "you read Capital" apparently the Ethiopian government did, nationalised the food supply and caused a major famine in the 80s.

321 Sedov,

YES, and the dialectics, are based on a false premise that people and communities are like ants that serve the common good.

The truth is people always ask whats in it for me ?

306

I don't think you understand the point that both Talorthane and myself were making.

Improving Scotland's health is about much more than managing the NHS. The NHS is about treating sick people - preventing poor health in the first place is just as important.

That's why action to tackle smoking, drink and drugs and poor diet is important. It is equally important to tackle the culture of poverty and dependency which scars many communities in Scotland. Look at the areas where deprivation and dependency are highest - they are the same areas where life expectancy is lowest.

Addressing the wider determinants of health is as important as fixing the NHS. That is why the SNP government has a department of Health and Wellbeing which brings together policy areas like housing and communities and anti-poverty measures as well as the more obvious policy areas like sport.

There is a certain amount that can be done within the limits of devolution to tackle problems like poverty and dependency, which contribute to ill health. But these problems could be tackled much more effectively if the Scottish government had control of policy on the economy and on tax and benefits and pensions - and could align those policies with the rest of the government's activities.

That is the whole point of 'joined up policy making' as Labour calls it.

Wendy sums up Scottish Labour intellectual contributions:
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1090032002
Ms Alexander has been attacked by Labour Party colleagues for frank comments she made in the letter to former SNP deputy leader Jim Sillars.

She said the Scottish Labour Party had not made any real intellectual contribution for nearly 100 years and said some colleagues were too attached to their "ministerial Mondeos" to think about new strategies for Scotland.

#325 howyoudoingboy

In relation to the SNPs defeat over the Trams vote:

"Why did the Executive not Resign Call for an Election and let the people decide. After all The S.N.P have so much support it would have been a no brainer"

I accept that sometimes you do make worthwhile posts.

What happened here?

326 7 327 - Yes and I can name ,many countries that are failing under capitalism -but I find it interesting that just by typing the name "Karl Marx"I can receive such a response -this is most encouraging, thanks.

321. Sedov, Scotland
I have to confess that Victorian political theory has never rung my bell.

Perhaps you might explain why the theories of a German political theorist from the 1860s should be particularly relevant to the question of enhanced fiscal autonomy for Scotland and (say)the question of Scotland being forced to accept WMDs by the London supreme soviet poliburo?

20,000 join in national conversation

http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=1332052007

Should that not read 20,001 if the Scotsman counts Wendy as the most recent convert to the need for debate on further constitutional change?

#332 Livilion sorry obviously not as intelligent ( or patronising) as you and frankly not interested but see my post at 331.

#331 Sedov, I have some sympathy with your views, but what on earth is the relevance of Socialism on a blog about Wendy Alexander and the Scottish Labour Party?

327. pehman, sussex
I like Dr Who's new Dialectics that can negotiate stairs, but the weepie one that Rose Tyler touched was a complete woose.
Crying? I mean it is a Dialectic Jim but not as we know it.

#335 Wee Ayrshire, nought actually, but just passing the time between building the barricades. By the way, WA gives me the boak and Ayrshire is the real heart of Scotland and the birthplace of oor Rabbie. Thats it I'm of tae play bowls.

336 Livilion,

I'm afraid I'll have to come clean on that point. I haven't seen any of the new style Dr who shows.

But I'm glad to hear they have dialectics with feelings.

Do you think that the picture in this article was taken after she was accepted as the only leadership candidate?

If so, she looks a wee bit uncertain of whether she's made the right decision.

What new language from Labour? Same old spin.

In my opinion Wendy Alexander has nothing to say, cannot do the things she starts to do and even makes Angela Merkel look sexy - as far as politicians go, and that aint far enough.

Having said that, politics in Scotland is getting there.

Can't wait to see this formidable brain getting out of neutral, revving up and, with one slip of her clutch, smashing into the dippit headlights of the party's dream machine.

334. Sedov, Scotland
I'm sorry but all that alienation theory is as dry as last weeks solls.

Frankly I am at a loss to understand you throwing your lot in with the party of Thatcher's lovechild, Honest Tony, and displaying such utter contempt for the parties in Scotland professing to be socialist.

btw It speaks volumes that Labour In Scotland, the land of Big John Maclean, Jim Maxton, Manny Shinwell, Red Clydeside and Jimmy Reid's UCS sit in, couldn't raise enough socialists to oppose the arch capitalist and INSEAD old girl Wendy Alexander.

"I welcome a debate about Scotland's constitutional future."

The way I see it is:
Scotland is on the road to Independence. The question is will we take the slow road or the fast road. The slow road means gradually extending Scotland's powers. Labour is forced by the rise in SNP support to show more respect for the views of those who want Independence and to give more prominence to Scottish policies, against the wishes on the unionists, such as Des Browne, who's attitude will further erode Labour's support. Gradually, the difference between Devolution and Independence will disappear.
Or, we can take the fast road, accept what the end point is going to be and start seeking the mechanisms for achieving Independence.

"#264 Alan B

quite simply it would give scotland the powers to remedy scotland problems. (devolution max might be able to do the same thing)."

Interesting that last part - and why I am in favour of a Devolution Max proposal.

334. Sedov, Scotland
Wee typo!

I'm sorry but all that alienation theory is as dry as last weeks rolls.

AM2--193 'Hezza

"I don't have growth stats immediately to hand, but I do have subregional per capita GVA figures from 1995 to 2005. Here's 2005, for example:

London: £27,088
SE England: £18,976
Scotland: £16,944
East of England: £16,906
SW England: £16,685
East Midlands: £16,451
West Midlands: £15,812
NW England: £15,504
Yorkshire & Humber: £15,419
Northern Ireland: £14,196
NE England: £14,048
Wales: £13,813

Incidentally, see how we're above the median but below the mean because of London? That's what enables the union dividend"

What a fortunate interpretation for a unionist view.

What I see is that growth in London is higher than all other 'regions' because the flow of wealth is towards London, at the expense of 'regions'.

It is called the "Imperialist Dividend"

The English regions can look after themselves, and they have a lot of work to do. Scotland has the advantage of being a Country which can remove itself from this Imerialist theft.

Come to think of it, if Wendy Alexander had a formidable brain why is she in the Labour party advocating dependence for Scotland?

Perhaps it is because her brain is only formidable relative to how unionism would see us and have us be.

And they think we're daft. Doh!

#343 Jim P

"Scotland is on the road to Independence. The question is will we take the slow road or the fast road."

I saw this posted elsewhere today, and thought it had an amazing relevance for today's politics in Scotland.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.

#332 Miss H

"You don't seem to appreciate this."

They all 'appreciate' What it means they just want 'Independence' not a Half way house to staying in the Union. The S.N.P are going to have to do a lot of convincing to the 'Nationalist Fundys' on that one.

#330 Talorthane

"worthwhile post" That's it I've never been so insulted (and I've had plenty) I'm off...

Anway I'm sure I read 'dialectics' what that all about ? Cybermen we all know .'dialectics' what episode where they in and who was the 'Doctor'

time for 'All that is Howyoudoingboy melts into air'

AMtwa. How many politicians does it take to change a lightbulb?

Answer. 1, Alex Salmond. All your stats are obsolete. Now go and campaign for non-separatism in Ireland.

#347 The issue for me has always been one of the centralisation of money and power in London - that has been detrimental not only to Scotland but also to the English regions - decntarlisation of power should be welcomed by anyone who genuinely believes in democracy. that's why I believe taht ultimately the choice is not between independence and the status quo but between devolution max and the status quo - a win-win for the SNP one would think.

Still no answers to my question regarding Labour #309.

Can anyone help?

#352 typo -

should read:

"the choice is not between independence and the status quo but between devolution max and the independence - a win-win for the SNP one would think."

Sorry for the persistence, but I think it is important that we know who is in charge of a political party.

#350

I can only presume that they started off with the idea that the human being was the thesis.

And the robot was the anti-thesis of the human being.

So the cybermen were the synthesis of the two.

But I haven't watched it since Sylvester McCoy turned it into a pantomime, so I don't really know.

So, who pulls the strings in Labour in Scotland?
Gordon Brown or Wendy Alexander or Des Browne???

Please, anyone, an answer.

Peeablo

I think her title is the pretty clumsy title of:

"Leader of the Holyrood group of Labour MSPs"

...and she is answerable directly to Grodon Brown, though it should be to the Holyrood Group.

And she has no authority over Labour MPs or MSPs based in Scotland.

I don't know what authority she has over Labour councillors.

#99.AM2, Glasgow / 10:57am 22 Aug 2007
‘Rubbish! Try telling that to Standard & Poor's, Oxford Economics etc. Nobody except the SNP believes the SNP's economic propaganda.’

AM2, not this misleading rubbish again, I thought you would of learned your lesson by now. Again reference yourself to the following link:-

http://www.alba.org.uk/scotching/greatdeception.html

351 Jock -

AM2's dodgy statistics probably don't take into account the value of the vast quantities of mince produced by himself and alter egos

Is there a way of complaining to the Press Complaints Commission of something? This article is direct SLP propaganda and should surely be printed with the word ADVERTISEMENT at top and bottom to distinguish it from any actual reporting.

#106.AM2, Glasgow / 11:08am 22 Aug 2007
‘Why "hysterical"? I agree; of course it does. North Sea revenues are 0.8% of UK GDP, and supporting industries could more than double that, say Oil & Gas UK. To my knowledge, there's no controversy there.’

AM2, again more denial, you know very well this figure doesn’t include the Extra Regio Territories, which is totally separate from the UK accounts for some unknown reason.

#111.AM2, Glasgow / 11:20am 22 Aug 2007
‘Plenty of people either voted SNP but don't want independence, or do want independence but recognise the SNP's economic arguments to be dubious.’

On a roll today aren’t we AM2, is deception your middle name? You must realize that there are just as much chances people who voted Labour, LibDem, and Tory, may like the idea of independence, as most Scots given the right set of circumstances would wish their own country to be run by their own people. As far as the SNP economic arguments being dubious, are not the other parties just as much culpable with their demands for the tram system in Edinburgh, as surely they had read what the SNP had in their proposals?

#134.AM2, Glasgow / 11:53am 22 Aug 2007
‘Your 664,227 is the number of constituency votes for the SNP. What's it supposed to prove? 1,309,349 people voted for parties that consider the SNP's economic arguments to be bunk. But that doesn't prove my case!’

AM2, are you not over stepping the mark with your deceptions here, you are right all those people voted for parties who oppose the SNP, but this doesn’t mean by a long chalk that they did so because they considered the SNP economic argument as bunk, and I would love you to prove otherwise.

359

The numbers of people on unemployment benefit in Scotland are not actually huge.

The problem is with people on various types of incpacity or disability benefit - over 50% in some Glasgow wards.

The popular perception is that they are all at it. Some of them may be but most are genuinely disabled which in many cases means that their chances of getting a job are quite low given the barriers that disabled people still face in the labour market.

It is also the case that about half of those on incapacity benefit have had mental health problems. Again, there are still very many barriers which prevent people with mental health problems getting a job. A lot of employers just wouldn't be interested.

So before you simply cut benefits you need to think tnrough how employers can be persuaded and/or supported to give these folk jobs in the first place.

You also - and this is absolutely crucial - need to look at providing decent, affordable childcare for working parents. Otherwise you are going to end up with a lot of neglected weans.

#309 I can't quite remember when but a decision was taken at one of the Scottish Conferences to rename the part as the Scottish Labour Party - instead of the cumbersome Labour Party: Scottish Council - no doubt someone who is a Labour member will put me right.

Wendy Alexander is leader of the Scottish Parliamentary group - she is not leader of the Scottish Labour Party.

The Scottish conference remains the sovereign policy-making body within the Labour Party for the Scottish Parliament manifesto and for the election of the Scottish Executive Committee. it is that body which is the leadership in Scotland not Wendy Alexander.

The Scottish Policy Forum submits reports and policy recommendations and party conference votes upon final policy positions.

#369 - NAUOAN - thanks for clearing that up

356. Talorthane
You are missing a treat, I'd given up aswell after Jon Pertwee.
The 'Action Man' models and blue screen fringing were getting annoying, or I was getting too old.

Today's standard of computer graphics and effects, story lines, concepts and quality of characterisation got me roped in, and I'm the one who refuses to watch soaps and Big Brother.

I think BBC3 or 4 regularly run repeats. Check em out, they're not the same as the ropey, old Doctor Whos at all, but what they have done is take the best baddies from the past and put a credible spin on them.

Wendy Alexander is a politician who is not remotely interested in what goes on outside the Central Belt. This is seen through her indifference to the A9 and other key infrastructure projects such as the Borders Rail Link and the Aberdeen City By-pass. It is this obsession with the Central Belt which caused people to sicken of Labour outwith it and, with the form the SNP are in, they won't be responding to Wendy's 'deep thinking' anytime soon.

#304, Davey Smith.

You ARE an AM2 clone. You are the weakest link! Good bye.

#142.AM2, Glasgow / 12:01pm 22 Aug 2007
‘The SNP, in its 2006 document “Scotland in Surplus”, claimed a £1.01bn surplus for Scotland. But costings of the SNP's policy commitments in their 2007 manifesto showed at least a £2.54bn/year greater annual expenditure. Then factor in lost economies of scale (estimated at £1.5bn/year) and the SNP’s proposed oil fund policy's short-term impact on the public purse (about £4.8bn at last year’s prices) and you get something like a £7.8bn deficit – and I’m not even going into detail here!
This shouldn’t come as a surprise. Scotland is fortunate to have lowish taxes (37.2% of GDP) and a high level of public services. But small independent countries simply can’t maintain such a balance.
So an independent Scotland would have to choose between either the Irish model of low taxes (30.5% of GDP) but lousy public services or the Norwegian pattern of great public services but high taxes (45.0% of GDP).
It’s no accident that the top five countries in the World with the highest taxes are small and northern European: 1. Sweden 51.1%, 2. Denmark 49.7%, 3. Belgium 45.4%, 4. Norway 45.0%, 5. Finland 44.5%.
There’s no way around this. We couldn’t both have our cake and eat it!’

AM2, I have just read ‘Scotland in Surplus’, what are you talking about, I didn’t find anything on it which would suggest they couldn’t cover the sums you talk about.
Those countries you talk about, don’t they all have a higher standard of life than we do?
The thing also about GDP when it comes to Scotland, the figures on the sums spent by the government on Scotland can’t be justified, as they don’t work that way in an independence country.

Wendy Alexander will breath fresh life into Scottish Labour. Her move towards the centre on the Independence/Devolution issue is probably the right place to be. In this regard my Independence Questions would read something along the following strictly objective lines:

OPTION 1Would you prefer a Scotland that remains part of the United Kingdom-the worlds fifth largest economy,fifth most admired nation in the world(TIME magazine)with a Blue Water Navy that can rescue its citizens when the s**** hits the fan eg as in Lebanon recently, an Air Force with the worlds most advanced interceptor to see off those nasty Ruskies,a common language(almost) shared cultures and History and Geography and Institutions, anation that has a common Broadcasting,Antarctic Survey,Royal Air Force,Royal Navy,Army,Diplomatic Service,Seat on the security Council etc-all the economies of scale of a large nation,twelve remaining overseas territories with tens of thousands of British Citizens including the Falklands with huge oil reserves waiting to be tapped,Gibraltar, Bermuda etc.. A country with the most recognisable flag in the world, with a citizenry that is a scrambled egg mix of Celt and Pict and Saxon and Roman and Sikh-a nation within which the English,the Northern Irish,the Scots and the Welsh can and will enjoy individual seats of Government that recognise their unique characters and needs as Nations within a Nation.
This option in a nutshell be the best of Scots AND the best of British.
OR
OPTION 2

An independent Scotland.

Mmm.

PS Howsit Media 1. Lovely day in Durbs.Dont send us any of your nasty Cape weather!
Cheers bru. Keep up the good fight!

#377 - Geoff. interesting choices.

I know, why don't we have a referendum and ask the people?

PS - Is there any other kinda water but blue?

Wheres wee Eve. And where is our old friend Robbie from NZ?

It would appear that Labour are upt to some dirty tricks in Edinburgh
First we have a leaked consultative document about closing Schools, except it was a document created by the previous Labour administration, but Clr Ewan Aitken, who actually instigated the plan is trying to appear as the good guy.
Next we have Foulkes setting out that there is a lot of racism and atributes it to the promotion of William Wallace and Bannockburn.
Now we have UNISON calling a strike, loosley on the cuts in Edinburgh. Accusing the new council of being 'inexperienced' and ' didnt have th same problems with previous administration'. UNISON claim that they have 8000 Edinburgh council workers and claim that by a majority of 2 to 1 in favour of a strike, those for the strike were 1601, those against 661, so where do they get the idea that it was 2 to 1 majority of there membership??
These are there own figures http://unison.org.uk/news/news_view.asp?did=3610

UNISON just did whatthose commie unions have been doing for years.

sack the lot of them and bring in NON UNION labour from the eu and get the job don eproperly

369 Nauoan,

you the very man to answer why it is that labour broadcasts say the labour party in Scotland, if that is as you say not the OFFCIAL title

#325, Howdaydoday.

You are excelling yourself.

Will the Unionists force a vote on "the conversation"?

Alternatively, will they just snipe from the sidelines?

#377 - Why can't we get any fake Unionist provacateurs on here who are concise?

378 Ayrshirescot-agree- a Referendum should be held. The anecdotal evidence in support of a ref is overwhelming. The intriguing question is-should it reject the Independence option,what then. Would it then be regarded as settled or will it then be a Referendum every few years. If the Scottish people opt for Independence then we are unlikely to see a further referendum on rejoining the Union.
The water-here in Africa we have all kinds-brown,black,green and some blue. Hard to believe its colourless-what is colourless-something you cant see! The Blue water Navy is of course a Navy that can operate all over the globe-there are only a few at present-the US Navy,French,UK,Russian with the Indian Navy and Chinese future candidates

The Irish Navy is not a blue water navy.

#385 - thanks for clearuing up the water question. Now, do tell, what colour is the sky where you are? What part of South Ayrshire is Durbs in

This could be the Hootsman's tribute to Wendy, except the title backfires on them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf46zlPoHY4&mode=relat...=

The Scottish Labour Party...rings a bell oh yeah, Jim Sillars, John McAllion, Mariah Fyffe and oh what was that wee man's name, became a lawyer...oh yeah Colin Boyd or to give him his Sunday name Baron Boyd of Duncansby. Left the Labour party in 1976 because he doubted thie commitment to devolution...

#386 - Gosh - does that mean Ireland won't be able to fully participate in far-flung illegal invasions. Pity. Am sure the folks in Iraq are full of admiration for the reach of UK force.

PS- is the Waverly a blue water steamer?

#388 - LOL. Title should maybe be "What heffer sat on her face"?

359. Methalions
Hmm, I think you're on a slippery slope to 'Society? There's no such thing'.

Next it'll be:
""...of course we've called you an ambulance, where's your bank and credit card details?

One way to reduce demands on the NHS:
Make patients pay for treatment at point of use.

That'd get waiting lists down, sort out malingerers and kill off the long term sick and infirm, freeing up the system for productive members of the workforce to get back to wealth creation with minimal disruption to production...""

Maybe that's an idea for a Utopia under Afrikaan skies, but it's not for me.

Congratulations to Ian Georgeson
on his high speed photograghy, how did he manage to capture her with her gob shut.
Well done george.

387-the sky in Durban today was a Saltire blue-the local Zulus would say iZulu luhlaza. I cant tell you what colour the South Ayreshire sky is but I was in Kintyre in July and it was mostly bloody awful grey and miserable
390-yes, I am afraid the Irish Navy wont be able to take part. When your navy consists mainly of rowing boats it means you have to stay very close to shore. It also means that you cant defend your country.
As to Iraq and leaving the sarcasm aside for a moment, I agree that the Iraqi invasion was a disastrous mistake and a blot on the reputation of the British altho I think few will mourn the passing of Saddam. Having said that I would think some Iraqis do admire the UK's forces-the Kurds for example.

#393 - her gub was stuffed full of mince

#394 - The Kurds had plenty of opportunity to admire UK and US weaponry - throughout the 80s and 90s when it was used against them by the Saddam regime the UK/US sold them to.

There is a similarity between your and AM2's postings - always claiming to know the minds and thinking of millions of other people. Given that the UK and US still do not recognise the right of self-determination of the Kurds I doubt they do "admire" as much as you think.

Do you no find that yer mince goes stale awful quick with the heat down there?

391, AyrshireScot. She might think she'll be in charge for heifer and heifer.

393 and 395-you two eejits shud be on the stage!
Looks more like porridge to me.

396-we keep it in the fridge or eat it quickly.

Be very carefull of Wendy mates!!!. Leopards can't change their spots. And for Christ's sake. Be on the look out. She is just the American counter-part of Hillary C., another political saboteur.

And while yousns are being rude abour wee Wendy what about Salmond? Now theres a cartoonists delight!

Geoff. How's the Durban poison? The Durbantine you all drink. Today was a saltire blue sky over my neck of the woods. Does your dreich view of Scotland have to extent to bringing your clouds with you whenever you visit?

#399 - or post it on here

#381, Fife Flyer.

Have you ever been a member of a TU?

If you have, what did you do to change their outlook?

TUs, per se, are a good thing. Allowing them to be taken over by political aparatchiks is what causes the problem.

Yeah, Geoff. Find a cartoonists delight about Alex Salmond. I'd share the laughter with you.

396- about AM2 and I claiming to "know the minds of millions..." We all speculate and conjecture about what others think. You said"I am sure the folks in Iraq(all of them?) are full of admiration for the reach of UK force"

#406 - perhaps that was ironic?

#383 frank mcbride

Come on Frank even I admit 'The conversation' could be a chance for some reasoned comments after all it's not The Scotsman.

I don't remember many loony comments on labours 'Big Conversation 'Blog

#384 AyrshireScot

concise wasn't he an Apache.

The 'Apohrism' Is an art form few Achieve on the Scotsman Comments.

By the way "intellectual" is the correct spelling..he..he

And that's is me last post of to see the England vs Germany match

#375. Andrew Allan
Just came back to the blogg and clocked your post.

Correct me if I'm wrong but 'Scotland in Surplus' wasn't it based on GERS 2005 and did not include Extra Regio Territories?
Didn't it have revenue from oil at something like £3bn and £7-8bn corporation tax from the north Sea?

Gordon Brown's last red book(C.51, page 264 for Budget 2006), predicted £10-12bn a year plus corporation tax for the years to 2012, assuming Brent Crude maintained $65boe.

Am I being simple or isn't that a sizeable windfall for Scotland raising its own revenue compaired to the Barnett formula grants?

The UK might not get out of bed for £10bn but for Scotland's economy it would be equivolent to a £500bn injection to the UK economy or half the UK's national debt written off in one year.

Certainly worth getting out of bed for.

#Geoff.

No, mince is what the majorityof Whites in SA do. The native Africans dance.

404 i WAS NOT ONLY A MEMBER BUT AN ACTIVE MAMBER AND NOT ONLY THAT A BRANCH SEC. oops sorry caps on .................

the busnsess was at times coniving, bullying and downright blackmail, I could not change it so left, was actually told I was a liberal upstart and those of you who know me know I am right wing

Notice how the Hootsman has been trying all week to capture the acceptable face of Wenndy Alexander? Give up. Wendy is the wrong name for a politician and her pus just doesn't cut it either. Lightweight, lightweight and lightweight written all over the whole marketing exercise.

#408, Howdaydoday.

Good Lord, you are beging to sound like ArMageddon.

BTW,an apohrism is a "big Greek jug".

402 Jock-Hi Jock. My Durban Poison days are long over! As to the Durbantine-now that could be Cane Spirit or a native brew known as Gavine which is often lethal. Sorry about the clouds-I'll leave them behind next year. Our winter dry season is jus finishing-very parched here-we could do with some clouds! On a serious note and back to the topic-Scottish Labours move from the Devolution settlement closer to the SNP's position is a realistic assessment of the political mood in Scotland and a sort of backhanded compliment to the SNP. It could be a clever move and take someof the wind from the sails of HMSS Salmondella. It would seem that the centre is here its at-be all things to all people-like Nu Labour. They seem to have that particular turf wrapped up fr good! The Tories are absolutely hopeless in England altho Annabel in North Britain a bad lass!

416-that shud be"Annabells NOT a bad lass!

414 comments, most during working hours. Do you nationalists not have jobs to do? Or is that your job?

411 Fife Flyer,

A liberal upstart, wow that must have shook you eh ?

George galloway once called me, a red baited reactionary- ME

407-actually I know it was ironic, but it still translates into you speculating that "...the Iraqis are(NOT) full of admiration. One way or tother amounts to the same sin!

382. pehman, sussex
The chances are that if they used the title from their Scottish web page they might end up with Labour In Scotland(party) which for Ms Alexander may provide a rather unfortunate acronym.
http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/labour_in_scotland

Labour In Scotland, but not Of Scotland?

#415 frank mcbride

Just before kick off thought Id let you know we have a new grand cub(boy) due in about six weeks and his chosen name is 'ALEX' I kid you not.

Chosen by mum and dad....

Really must go now absolutely.....bye

Wales win 1-0

#420, perhaps if it was ironic i didnae really mean it literally?

408. howyoudoingboy; /Come on Germany.

#308 MacIan

You cannot be serious. Do you actually believe the nonsense you spout. To say that England is extraordinary wealthy on the back of Scotland is absolute nonsense. That is the sort of small dog syndrome that drives us proud Scots insane. The crassness, the arrogance and the delusional thought patterns that push people like yourself to insist that Scotland is the main supplier of wealth within this union is beyond comprehension. England have in excess of 50 million people, they have massive industry in numerous cities, they have infrastructure and economies and the people to drive it. We are by comparison the exact opposite! Thats not to say that we are not worthy of praise, we have brought many amazing inventions to this world and continue to do so, we are capable of being independent, offcourse we are, but we wont become more affluent, we wont suddenly be richer or better off, we wont become some dynamic new force in the European market place, so lets stop talking crap and grow up.

410 Frank McBride-yeah us Whiteys aint got no rhythmn! But dont tell a Boer farmer that he minces-he might just 'klap' you!

#411, Fife Flyer.

I had a feeling. If your language had been a "little" bit more PC you could have gone as far as the Stalinists.

I, also, was a Branch Secy. & chairman of a number of sub-committees. The Union of which I was a member, however although there were many LP supporters and activist, never affiliated to the LP. This was done through organisation.

Strengh of conviction and perseverance are required.

426 - Media 1, cape town / 7:57pm 22 Aug 2007

"That is the sort of small dog syndrome that drives us proud Scots insane. "

Sorry you were driven barking, but at least that would explain your raving posts. Get well soon.

416< Geoff.
Interesting. Personally I would think that pinching other party's ideas was dethpicable - as Sylvester used to say.
Reckon Formidable Brain Alexander would have to come up with her own ideas to live up to her billing. There again, I reckon bereft brains are preaching here and haven't got enough puff to do anything other than blow their own cover.

426 Media 1,

England exports = 4% GDP

#429 ayrshireScot: Surely even you, stuck in Salcoats can offer more of a come back than that!

Cmon, grow up and get real

#432 he says...ending "grow up and get real" LOL

So perfect example of why broadcasting needs an overhaul. TV's on in the corner, what's live on BBC1 Scotland? Engerland v Germany.

Where's the Scotland v Siff Efrikka game? On SKY. Beeb Scotland have highlights at 11pm.

So how come the beeb can presumably outbid Sky for the England game and Beeb Scotland are left with sloppy seconds? Eh, eh, eh?

(head explodes)

Come on Germany....as a Scoto-Hun with family in Bavaria and North Rhein Westfalen this is allowed.

Und der Bielefelder Alm hip hip hoorah.

#427, Geoff.

I thought Klap was, one of THOSE diseases. Is THAT what's wrong, with Media 1 and yourself.

If so, I'm terribly sorry. It was wrong of me to mock the afflicted.

377. Geoff, South Africa-sunny durbs / 6:43pm 22 Aug 2007 :

I know one should not reply to these kind of posts, but an interesting point is raised, albeit without intention:

Scotland has about 9% of the UK population. London is the imperial capital, therefore Scotland owns 9% of all things held in the name of the UK, England owns 91% of all things held in he name of the UK.

This 9% includes part of all armed forces, all governed run or financed cultural enterprises, all remaining colonies and their assets.

By the way. Scoland while within the UK received none of the revenues of our own oil, it is doubtful if it would get any, therefore, of the Falklands oil - unless as part of the negotiations for appropriate division of imperial assets including also the Albert Hall and the British Museum !!!.

Why doesn't everybody get real?

These endless England/Scotland debates are a pain in the neck and a complete waste of time.

Let's review where we are:

SNP fight election on platform that Scotland can be more successful with more powers and ideally independence.

Labour fight election on platform that Scotland doesn't need more powers.

SNP win election.

New Labour leader concedes yes that Scottish Parliament needs more powers and - and the Scotsman is quite right about this - uses her speech to highlight a more positive, empowering aspirational agenda.

People are being rather cynical about this which I think is a mistake.

Yes, I am sure it is a very calculated ploy by Labour to win back disaffected supporters by moving into the SNP's territory. But the point is, whatever their motivation, they are doing it and that opens up whole new possibilities for the Scottish Parliament to deliver real progress over the next 4 years.

So the question is not whether Scotland needs more powers to progress - the question is how far and how fast we go.

It's a whole new chapter and people really need to adjust to that and stop re-running the pre-election squabbles that are now dead and buried.

#425 mr chips

Hoi my wife heard that

1-0 lampard

Arsch 1-0 to the boy McLaren's team.

Nice goal Frank. One for the Brits!

405 Jock - the wide mouth frog is a pal of the caterpillar I think

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44049000/jpg/_44049...

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.croak...

South Africa have a man carried off

Sadly, the same old crap and bilge from the SNP. When will they realise that they won the election, albeit by 1 seat, and that their bile should be spewed at wee Ecky and Nilcola for wasting a huge lead in the opinion polls. But of course, it is easier to whinge and moan than it is to be constructive and govern.

McLaren Aye! Thats what I mean about scrambled eggs.(thinks-hope this is not too obscure)

#443 - do you just paste exactly the same comment onto each blog every day? reads like it. see 437 - that is the way we want to go. come up wi some fresh mince will you?

443

It is easier to whinge and moan than it is to be constructive - indeed and you are a prime example of that.

Go for it you Huns.

I'm also practising for Tuesday.

Did I say that? Yes, I did.

Jings Kranal you really put the anal into everything dontcha?

446 - Kranal gives us an example of :
www.meatmatters.com/images/cookingtips/Mince.jpg

#444, Geoff.

Do you really think we're all barstewards?

361 Andrew Allen.
I must say Andrew that this was the first time I had seen the report - The Great Deception- and its staggering figures clearly state in the Scots vernacular what I have been stating to AM2 that the sleekit English would steal the sugar out of your tea then come back for the milk and the teabag after that, and if that is offensive to the English too bad they have been offending against us with impunity for many years. PAY BACK TIME DONT YOU THINK!!!! These are statistics that AM2 never seems to mention because they put his beloved countrymen to shame, It is little wonder how now, how they have the money to pour into new Wembley stadiums, billions of pounds on new Olympic Stadiums and complete regeneration of vast areas of London, with new tube lines and stations to boot and they try to fool us that this money comes out of London's budget sure!!!!Just who are they trying to kid. When is Glasgow and Edinburgh getting their cities regenerated the same as London to the same tune. This report must have been another one hidden from us by McConnell and his treacherous rat bags like all the others. Will AM2 now his countrymen are sleekit for if as his other statistics he still denies then I suspect he is as bad as them. The Scotland to London gravy train has to halt. By the way AM2 you still haven't answered my reasonable question Why does England hang on to Scotland's Apron strings and wont say go.

Probably doesn't matter what Wendy Alexander says. The Scottish Labour Party ran Scotland for 8 years. Now it will likely have at least 8 years of opposition. I can't see Wendy surviving as leader that long.

436 MacIan- not quite-what about Wales and NI?
As to Scotlands share in the event of a dissolution of the Union-absolutely correct that Scotland is fully entitled ti its share of the Unions assets. This shud be a relatively easy excercise in the case of most of the assets. Some may be problematic-scotland would have no need of or desire for (according to AS ) nuclear subs,the new Carriers,type 45 destroyers etc. As to the overseas territories-look at photos of Port Stanley orGibraltar for eg-the flags are Union Jacks-the people are BRITISH-not scots or english. How do you extract 9% of the falklands for example? these are virtually unscrambable eggs.
As to scotlands oil-you say that Scotland has received none of the revenue from her Oil? Shurely some mistake here?

Wunderbar 1-1.

'450 - by all means, Labour had a lovely detention centre just for foreign kids at Dungavel...run along and play but "mommy" and daddy won't be able to come with you, they'll be locked up somewhere else