With all the benefits of this resource heading swiftly over the border in return for a slightly diminshed Barnett formula. Wake up Scotland before this heads the same as oil revenues or are you happy being the poor relations of the United Kingdom.

And another 2GW near Corrievreckan too I believe. . .

#1 Good post Arab

The whole of Scotland is going to be turned into one big power station. Hardly any jobs and revenue and a destroyed landscape.
Time to go on our own

Good news. Reign it in ... and this time guard it from the pilferers.

#1 - let's get the thing built before starting the political tub thumping! How about the same technology here in the Cook Strait?

Tidal energy resembles nuclear power, in that it is capital-intensive. It is not just "there for the taking" as the article seems to imply.

Someone needs to sit down and do the arithmentic based on expected capital cost, construction time, expected power price, and payback time. If the numbers look good, international investors will rush in. The Scottish government should be part of all this and ready to take a fair share of the revenue (if any) and at the same time to ensure that the people of Scotland can afford to buy their own electricity!

Scotland is a very blessed nation. The land and the sea appear to have been created to provide wealth and security for its people. As the son of a marine engineer and family who has a great history of service in the Merchant Navy I was constantly told that the power of the sea was more than could be imagined. Sounds like some clever engineers have used their knowledge and imagination to come up with a way to benefit the lands people by working with the sea. Early days but the forces are there, we just need both money and the right ideas to harness what we need.

If we had control of our oil revenue we would be unstoppable in becoming the leaders in Enviromental Technologies. The world would be knocking at our door, and we could once again become one of the great engineering nations that we were.

#7 - Spoken like a true expat Scot! There's a good reason why we're all elsewhere...

BP will slay this dragon as a threat to present investment.

Renewable energy for the potential benefits is worth a punt. wind and water turbines aren't any worse looking than electricity pylons or any of the other industrial equipment that covers our countryside.

Now we are begining to get somewhere.
I assume that this is "nodding duck" Salter

For the land lubbers out there you need to be aware that the tides follow the moon so be prepared to adjust your lifestyle to fit in with the lunatic vagaries of electricity availability.

However - Corrievreckan and several other places with different times of peak tidal stream could smooth the supply. We could tuck a few under the Skye Bridge or at the Greydogs or Mull of Kintyre which are nearer the sources of demand

The notion of using the spare power to convert water into hydrogen - perhaps there is room for a plant on Calva or Flotta whence tankers could take it away - is a good one. we could all have hydrogen fueled cars Sea water plus electricity means H20 => H2 (hydrogen) plus O2(oxygen) into car and back to nice clean water vapour

i'm just waiting for someone to complain on environmental reasons!!

go for it!

....erm another example of the SNP driving a wedge bewteen Scotland and the UK.

Yippee!

No7: Not really early days, Prof. Salter did indeed engineer the nodding ducks (No11) but he was kyboshed for funding by the nuclear lobby in Whitehall whose mandarins massaged the numbers and that was over 20 years ago.
There is currently a Scottish company who design and manufacture tidal barrages that soak up the constant motion at sea, one installation destined for Portuguese waters was reported in this publication a few months back, they were a spin-off from the oil industry.

-- Tidal energy resembles nuclear power, in that it is capital-intensive. It is not just "there for the taking".

I don't reckon that barrages are the best answer. Of course this means muckle quarrying, trucking, and pouring of concrete which will be loved by local businessmen. But when the tide is flowing in the first place why stop it?

www.epochmag.net/contents5/VerticalRotor.html

Professor Salter is a greatly undervalued asset - lets hope the new government backs his scheme.

If we can have this method of power generation instead of huge 60feet plus wind turbines going up and down the length of the highlands, islands, glens and bens ... I'm all for it! Let's submerge the sodding things!!! :)

There is no such thing as free energy, and interfering with the tidal flow will have consequences, as will interfering with wind flow through wind farms. You are taking energy from one source and converting it into electrical energy, and the laws of energy conservation that you must use energy to create energy.
That being said, the effects will be minimal, but also extremely long term. Has anyone done any modelling on this yet?
As for BP killing the project, don't be surprised if they are on of the hidden investors. The bottom line is that they are in the business of energy supply, and would be crazy to ignore a potential such as this one. I am currently working for a Danish oil company that is heavily investing in alternative and renewable energy, as well as oil and gas production. They are behind Geothermal energy produced in sweden and denmark, a massive ofshore wind farm off the west coast, and the wind farm on Lewis.
The oil companies have massive capital resources that can be ploughed back in to renewables. If nothing else, they can produce the electricity that will electrolyse seawater to produce the hydrogen that they will sell in their existing petrol station infrastructure to power our fuel cell driven cars........whew!
Anyone who thinks that the oil companies exist for the pleasure of car drivers is naiive. Oil drives our marine transport, air transport, lubricates most things, manufactures plastics, including biodegradable plastic, etc.
I am a huge fan of the subsea turbine idea, since it was first suggested some 20 years ago. But don't go thinking that it is all free............it ain't.

Get to it!

"IT HAS been described as the "greatest untapped source of energy in Scotland"

yeah my bank account SNP funding another pie in the sky scheme any more mad professors about just ask the SNP and a river our TAX MONEY will be doled out to you.

Friends of the Earth the tree huggers said

"cautioned against fast-tracking energy schemes without assessing their environmental impact or adequate consultation."

the answer as every normal person knows is nuclear energy This would go a long way toward cleaning the air and reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Every responsible environmentalist should support a move in that direction.

Scotland, may "The Force be With You ",just make sure you reap the benefits.

#17 Boy Wonder. If only they were 60 feet plus. The ones they are proposing for Lewis will be 487 feet high!

When I was at Edinburgh in the late early 70's we were leading the world then in wave and underwater technology but London wouldn't
provide the funds....Scottish Oil was about to come on tap so why waste money on something that will benefit mainly Scotland when instead we could be raising money from one of Scotland's new assets?

Not exactly hot news; e.g. see:

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=40835

Engineers and scientists have been working away at this for decades but it's still not been developed to the commercial stage.

'Saudi Arabia of renewable energy' off Scotland's coast
IAN JOHNSTON ENVIRONMENT CORRESPONDENT (ijohnston@scotsman.com)
I do not think Saudi or Nigeria or Chavez will miss few coins if you do get this. It is good for you. You will save but then Mr. Brown will come with new OIL tax for Scotland only. He does not like 4*4 vehicles.

Seize the moment Scotland.

This will come to fruition and this time it will be OUR electricity.

Remember this is just the start, next will be the super grid between Scotland and Norway.

All unionists - Stop worrying about the past and live in the hear and now. Why are you so scared to do anything for your own Country. No wonder so many people leave here !

Number 20 - away and bile yir heed

Thank you for that Firozali, it would be great for us. I rather think Broon loves 4x4's, all the more tax for him!

#26 i did say NORMAL PEOPLE you little league of nation-er "OUR electricity" ELECTRICITY HUGGER

THE UK IS OUR COUNTRY

#20 - so you've solved the waste management problem for nuclear energy, have you, and costed it all into the equation?

If you cost it out properly, nuclear energy is unaffordable. I'd rather switch the lights out occasionally.

#3
How do you get the destroyed landscape?
If this was successful there would be no windfarms and no nuclear power stations.

#20, Howdaydoday

You sly devil!

You're not supposed to have taken the course on irony yet ;-)

# 11 navvy it's uncanny! been through all of the afore mentioned waters. we must have met either in tunnels or in the PuffInn. Have you checked your techy journals 1969/70 Wraysbury & Datchet MWB Tunnels?

#29 The UK might be your country, but it is not mine. My country is Scotland.

Saor Alba.

About time, - tidal power has been the sleeping giant of Scottish energy potential.

Initially it will be capital expensive, - yes, - but much less than nuclear, and without any serious environmental side effects.

As for interfering with tidal flows - one might as well try to interfere with gravity. Anyone who has witnessed the colossal Pentland Firth tidal streams can confirm - the effect on them of a few turbines would have as little impact as one placed in the Niagara Falls.

No. 18

Energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only be changed in form.

As any Marine Engineer can tell you the amount of energy in the sea is so immense that we can probably not calculate how much energy is there, using present super computers that is. What we are talking about here is probably a very minute amount of energy being changed from currents to current.

Dont pardon the pun gentlemen.

Hail Hail

...it's all water under the bridge.

#11 navvy - I understood that the wave energy machines derived their energy from both the ebbing and flowing tide and as there would be machines placed at different points around the coast, and the tide timetables indicate that high tide is at different times around the coast, each wave energy machine would cover the high and low tide hiatus of the others.

#20 - I'm still waiting for an answer - cost in waste management over the lifetime of the major radiation emitting nucleides, and then tell me how nuclear energy is affordable?

Scottish Power again ! Not long ago they were saying this:

http://business.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=748292007

#32 Rulesbutnotrulers... Quite.. It's also interesting to note that one of the main investors in MCT is a Danish bank... Do we have any banks in Scotland?

I can guarantee right now that this will be Scotland's tides producing electricity for Scotland but using someone else's technology which -like Danish, German and US wind technology - they will go on to sell round the world.

#1 and #7 yet more ex-pat Nationalist bravado from people who no longer live here and yet seem to have an all-knowing knowledge of what is RIGHT for Scotland. It's easy from a distance to develop the belief that Scotland is a thriving small nation (The sean Connery Syndrome) but living here gives you a totally different perspective.

I hope in all the planning stages of this someone has been told the firth has been recorded running at 24knots + ! the 12 knots quoted in the article is the normal run of the mill spee ( i think).
Dounreay nuclear power station is being decomminssioned and there is no hope of anything other than that being done with it, the area needs a boost of empoyment, will this provide it? we will have to wait and see.
The interest to me will be what these turbines look like.. are they going to be like wind turbines with big blades whizzing round? i hope not for the sake of the marine life around here which is very rich and very diverse, orca, minke, pilot, northern bottlenose whales, dolphins of umpteen varieties, basking shark, porbeagle shark (on the IUCN red list!) and other protected species.

#42 And what perspective is that? They are ex pats for a reason and would be back in a shot if Scotland started to get off its knees as it is now seeming to do with the SNP. What is a Surrender Monkey? DFYL

#42 I take it you only stay for the craic?

its a great opportunity and they should be funded to create a prototype asap. However . . .

"About 2.5 million cubic metres of water - 1,000 Olympic pools - will pass through a line drawn across the Firth every second at peak times. According to Professor Stephen Salter, this could generate up to 10 to 20 gigawatts of power. Hunterston and Torness nuclear power stations can produce up to 2.5GW."

This is talking about ALL the water passing through the entire Pentland Firth. I'm assuming that even the biggest turbine would be of the order of 100ft in diameter?? And the top speed of the water flow is 12 knots. That would give it about the same power production as current wind turbines which operate in wind that is far faster - 20 knots or more.

That doesnt seem to promise 2 gigawatts of power?

If you built a concrete barrage across the entire Firth - yes I can see how that could generate a lot of power - it would also be the largest dam in the history of the world and cost many billions of £s.

Nobody has mentioned the effect spinning turbines might have on fish stocks? Shredded fish anyone?

So, if they build a prototype all these theories could be checked out - hopefully they will. But 2 gigawatts - can't see that happening this century.

Just get on and do it!

This is a positive story on a renewable clean way of producing the electricity the country needs.
It is a pity that the usual suspects are using the article as an excuse to yet again attack the union.

#25 All unionists - Stop worrying about the past and live in the hear and now. Why are you so scared to do anything for your own Country. No wonder so many people leave here !

I have spent 27 years in the service of my country and will continue in that service for another 9 years so maybe you could explain what you mean by the above comment.

47. Tidal turbines don't mince the fish - the turbine blades rotate quite slowly and the agile little creatures dodge them easily.

Incidentally, it's intriguing that in this technology electricity comes from the motion of the moon.

"capable of generating enough electricity for every home and business in the country several times over."

Another example of the Scotsmans use of empty phrases.

What? So every house and business can turn their lights on for ten minutes, twice, then the power is used up?

WHAT the F*K is THAT meant to convey?

Some great pictures of the Strangford Lough machine:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/06/12_megawatts_wo.php

#45 no they would not return - another Sean Connery-ism.

I'm no surrender monkey.....i'm a realist not blinkered by outdated images of some mighty struggle against the English.

#25 I already have my own country and it's called Great Britain. To think that Scotland is somehow being held back by England is laughable and naive.

#46 no, I love it here but I also have friends and family all over Britain and we all appreciate what each area has to offer whether it be Yorkshire, London, South Wales, Liverpool or wherever. Yeah,sometimes it feels like London holds all the aces but what do you think an independent Scotland would look like for anyone outwith Glasgow and Edinburgh? You may not like to admit this but the Scottish people are the same as those down south with the same fears and hopes - forget ANCIENT history, this is 2007.

#49 Walter, I agree that reading all of the postings I sat here in amazement that this had been turned into an independence issue, by the SNP pack, as for the suggestion that somehow the first thing that we should do is connect to Norway! Why, it is the usual anywhere but Wales, Northern Ireland, Eire and especially England, you should grow up take of the free SNP supplied short sighted specs and look at the real world.

Back to the real issue, I believe that there is a tidal turbine in place off Eday, they had terrible trouble if I recall in getting the machine in place nearly loosing the project. Perhaps Tuggy can confirm. The Pentland Firth is one of the most unforgiving marine environments. Simplistic statements by Salter completely underestimate the difficulty of the project. Some years ago a link span was put in near John o groats and at the first opportunity the Pentland Firth mangled it.

#50 Nuts you just ruined my idea for a new business to add to the local infrastructure.

Industrial grade sushi supplies in pick and mix bags.

Check your passport

Duh

That cheap shot was intended for #35

Salter said "The Pentland Firth is the Saudi Arabia of marine energy. But, if you are in London, energy from the Pentland Firth is a long way away and there's no cable to get it to your voters."

What a silly chap he is, does he not know from his ivory tower that Scotland has MP's?

He has those glasses on supplied by the SNP.

aaaaaaaaaaanyway, all types of renewable energy must be given a chance to grow - even if it starts on a small scale and develops from there. There is no need at this stage to get bogged down in where the revenue will go and who will gain the most. That kind of talk paralyses any innovative projects.

I'm not close to being a tree-hugger but even I can see radical ideas are needed and we need to re-appraise what is acceptable (especially for those talking of eyesores etc) and weigh this up against the long term.

AT long last something is being done about this wasted opportunity. I truly hope the SNP administration will take action after 15 years of prevarication and dithering by Westminster Tory/Labour and Holyrood Labour administrations.

#62 AJM - when you cross the border between England and Scotland (or vice versa) you will notice a large number of large pylons marching south carrying the surplus energy Scotland currently produces (about half our output is exported, or it was until the conveyor belt broke at Longannet).
Are you unaware of the current furore over the enlargement of the power lines and pylons between Beauly and Denny (near Stirling), ostensibly to carry windpower but probably in order to carry power from new nuclear stations around the Highlands where there are few Labour voters - oops, sorry, carried away there ?
Anyway the interesting bit of this article is that the Scotsman is admitting in the first paragraph that the existing windfarms are producing the equivalent of one nuclear power plant already. Think about it.

sorry, that should read fifth paragraph, obviously

#66 - odd, isn't it, that it is economically viable to lay an undersea cable between here and Scandinavia, but not along the coast of Scotland - they'd rather have loads of enormous pylons marching through the loveliest bits of the Highlands?

#40 divide by 10*65-27%+110% as the crow flys i am working on it will give an answer later today got to go shopping now

#33frank mcbride i gave you an answer to the free movement of peoples yesterday and you didn't answer spelling was OK as well now off shopping with she who must be obeyed

#61 - and you've made sure we all noticed that....

#70 - you have no idea, do you? please don't advocate nuclear power stations in the UK until you have caught up with the arithmetic

*57

Or we convert the electricity to hydrogen and transport that to area of need by pipeline/tanker. We already have a significant infrestructure of pipes for oil. Couldn't this be converted for use for H2 transport?

48 - Surely more than one turbine could be put into the water, side by side or even in a "chain" with gaps in between. The power of the water would hardly diminish, so plenty of power could be generated.

Underwater and out of sight is much better than ruining the landscape on Lewis.

#67 Wind farms are currently producing (in Scotland) an average of 200mwhs. Torness and Hunterston are both over 1000mwhs each(admittedly when they are up and running). Maybe the Scotsman means that wind farms are producing the equivalent of a nuclear power station when it is shut down?

(Actually what the Scotsman is saying is that the installed capacity of wind farms is 1000mwhs but they only produce 20% of that on average. Scotsman journalists are the most gullible on the planet.)

Power from the Sea such potential it is in our own backyard , Marine engineers must be given Financial resources to explore New Technology to come up with Machinery that can benifit the whole country.

All types of Wind & tide power must be looked at in the run up to when we have sufficient Electrical Power to Run Industry & The population at Large.

If this could replace the eyesores of wind farms then I am all for it.
I agree with other posts that why have pylons we should ensure that the power company involved lays cabling either below or above ground safely enough to ensure no loss to consumer.

The spanish scottish power should not be allowed to deploy anymore pylons rather the opposite the government (SNP) should demand a pkan to remove all pylons from scotland.

75. What (or should I say Watt) is a mwhs?

#40's shopping list: How to cast runes, Witchdoctor Weekly, new batteries for calculator, Courage by Gordon Brown...light ale by Courage

#47 Tweedmouth, read my first post at #44, 12 knots is the 'normal' speed, it has been recorded up to 24 knots +.

#56 AJM, there is currently a wave generator being tested to the west of the mainland of orkney that so far is looking successful, but we haven't hit any bad weather yet. Yes there have been a few mishaps due to weather and the strong atlantic swell in this area.
I believe the link span yu are talking about happened before i moved up here, but what i can say is that when the new pier was being built at Scrabster, the engineers didn't take into consideration the tidal flow and had 3 months of work wiped out in one night, it wasn't even a raging storm.

The pentland firth is one of the most dangerous pieces of water around the UK due to it's tidal currents.

Sorry that shopping list was of course for #20 somethinsomethingboy. Apologies to Jenny from Inverness

Go for it Scotland. There will be huge initial costs. I seem to remember my late father, a civil engineer, talking about the vast power of the sea and I have wondered for years why we have not tried to harness this power. Did not the French do it about 30 years ago?

Power from the sea seems to have all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of all other forms of energy.

Most of us currently have gas central heating, but this will have to change in the not too distant future as gas runs out. Unless some commercial way is found to manufacture gas, we are all going to have to change our domestic heating systems. it will be a huge cost but long term we will all gain.

I only hope that the EU does not try to insist that it is a European asset to be shared with our EU partners, in which case we could end up with a disaster like with our fishing industry.

Perhaps we can use our contribution to the Olympics to finance this and other such projects.

40. Decommisioning nuclear:

In most countries the operator or owner is responsible for the decommissioning costs.
The total cost of decommissioning is dependent on the sequence and timing of the various stages of the program. Deferment of a stage tends to reduce its cost, due to decreasing radioactivity, but this may be offset by increased storage and surveillance costs.

Even allowing for uncertainties in cost estimates and applicable discount rates, decommissioning contributes a small fraction of total electricity generation costs. In USA many utilities have revised their cost projections downwards in the light of experience, and estimates now average $325 million per reactor all-up (1998 $).

Sealife around the north coast of Scotland has adapted over millions of years to cope with the natural sea currents. In particular larvae and smelt tend to drift with the current, while mature individuals swim against it back to breeding grounds. Sea currents have a major influence on water temperatures and the provision of nutrients to sealife in different areas. Sea currents also determine the distribution of sand, mud, and pebbles on the sea floor. This is of extreme importance because bottom dwelling crustaceans, worms and other invertebrates are distributed in accord with the sea floor conditions and the nutrients available. The current in the Pentland Firth is rapid because it is a bottleneck, but if you choke this bottleneck by extracting a significant amount of energy, you will cause massive changes over a very, very wide area at the inlet and outlet to this "funnel". Does Prof Stephen Salter know how much change will occur in the environment in relation to the amount by which the current is slowed down? He probably knows bugger all about the interaction of the Pentland Firth current's role in the local ecology. A rule which I have read (sorry, can't remember where!), is that manmade devices should extract no more than 10% of the energy available in the natural source they are exploiting, in order to avert critical environmental damage. There is no such thing as clean power.

#78 see http://uk.geocities.com/scotwind06/output.htm

#70 have a long read learn summatt and then get a life
and i am offski now

http://www.nda.gov.uk/documents/upload/Technical-note-on-...
ption-9-phased-deep-geological-disposal-June-2006.pdf

#87for#72 oh who cares she is twa#t

shopping now she is getting mad bye thats it

Nuclear power sites have to be cordoned off for 40 years after decommissioning for the really "hot stuff" to decay, before the sites can be finally cleaned and returned to non-nuclear uses. Since these sites exist anyway, it makes sense to build new nuclear plants inside them. However, a country should minimise the impact and risks of each form of power generation by exploiting all of them. Nuclear power has an excellent safety record, and the nuclear power stations have made even minor incidents public, so that protest groups can scream blue murder at minor incidents. BUT a country should use a broad range of power sources. In Alba's case, a good mix would be a new nuclear power station to replace Torness, (and maybe a second at Dounreay), a single coal-fired station with carbon sequestration, the existing fresh water hydropower, a modest sea current facility in the Pentland Firth, limited use of wind turbines, and a limited use of wave power. Hence if some trawler's net fouls a current turbine in the Pentland Firth, Scotland is still fine. Or if there is an unprecedented storm that wrecks the wave machines and wind turbines, Alba is still on its legs. Moderation in all things, not only in nuclear reactors, that's the answer!

Is it not the case that for Scotland really to benefit from its renewable energy potential, much of that energy is going to have to be used by the English? Maybe some can be sent over to Scandinavia or Ireland via undersea cable, but both are actually or potentially energy rich anyway. Clearly, therefore, the biggest, most lucrative, most logical market, and the one that is easiest to access, will be England.

At the moment, we are one country and should this new technology - developed jointly by Scots and the English, incidentally - prove successful there are no obstacles to British-wide roll-out and immediate access to 60 million potential users. Scotland and England as separate sovereign states changes the equation completely. Would England be happy to turn over its energy supplies to the whims of a foreign country or would it be much more likely to invest in trying to develop its own sources of energy - whether renewable or nuclear? Countries that depend on Russia for their gas, for example, probably wish they did not.

It seems to me that the financial benefits from renewable energy will be guaranteed with Scotland as a part of the Union. They would not be should Scotland go it alone. A devolved government has the ability to ensure that Scotland benefits from supplying renwable energy to a ready-made and completely integrated market. An independent Scottish government would find it had a much harder task convincing the English to take the power they had to offer in the first place.

I agree with Jaqueline Hyde & Caora Dubh that the environmental impact of this this scheme needs to be assessed very carefully. In addition to the potential damage to the seabed, current flow & the further expansion of super(duper) pylons there is the impact on whale and dolphin migration.
Will the whales have safe passage through or will this become a blender for marine wildlife?
Underground cables and onshore pylon to turbine replacement is the most viable cost effective method of generating local and sustainable energy, rather than another NIMBY project relying on large scale investment in remote power generation.
Is it possible multinationals want to follow this route so they can keep profits high and monopolize investment while reducing competition?

91. It's in the interests of Scotland and England to share power over a National/International Grid whether independent or not. The Grid provides essential backup to compensate for fluctuations in demand and supply including breakdowns or maintenance of stations and occasional absence of wind or tide.
This already happens elsewhere and any net contributions one way or the other are paid for by the recipients.

Scottish Power won't have even a prototype in the water until 2009; meanwhile the New Yorkers already have one in operation:

'MANHATTAN. Under the East River’s surface, along Roosevelt Island’s eastern shoreline, are six tidal-powered Kinetic Hydropower System turbines providing energy to a parking lot and a Gristedes.

Verdant Power’s Roosevelt Island Tidal Energy Project has set a record for free-flow turbines producing continuous energy for 2,400 hours, and to commemorate this, Mayor Michael Bloomberg and other officials are expected to host a celebration today.

It is the first kinetic hydropower technology for customers and the first-ever “multi-turbine kinetic hydropower field” to be installed and operated.

Verdant Power installed its first turbine in December and the sixth in early May. Five are producing power, one is taking measurements and all are monitored to see what affect the rotation of the turbines is having on fish.

Verdant Power’s goal is to expand the operation to up to 300 turbines along Roosevelt Island and by the United Nations that could provide 10 megawatts of power locally, or enough energy to power roughly 8,000 homes, Taylor said.

“The power reserve of the city of New York is already choked,” said William “Trey” Taylor III, Verdant’s president. “The East River has wonderful water currents,” and if they can make the technology work here, Taylor believes they can make it work anywhere.'
New York Metro.

#93 - being a back-up supply source is very different to being a primary supplier, it is not something yo can grow rich on because your source of income would be undependable, perhaps to the extent that the investments needed to develop the energy in thr first place would not be justifiable. Countries want to be energy self-sufficient if at all possible these days; this is especially the case since they have watched Russia turn off gas supplies to various countries on a whim over recent years. England will have the resources to build nuclear power stations and to explore its own sources of renewable energy and my guess is that as an independent country this is what England would do.

Something else to throw into the quation is that if these renewable energy sources are as abundant as is claimed, they will mean the UK will not need to build nuclear power plants. An independent Scotland, however, would not be able to stop the English building nuclear power plants away from its main centres of population - ie, in places that are much closer to, say, Glasgow than they are to London, Manchester and Birmingham.

#75, #67: "Wind farms are currently producing (in Scotland) an average of 200mwhs"

Unfortunately no. This would be the ideal output if wind blew at constant and predictaible times. Because the wind can fluctuate dramatically (literally) second by second and it requires to be blowing at the right speed for a minute or so for a wind turbine to get up to speed, as it were, the evidence from Denmark and Germany is that in real life, output is not 20% of capacity but more like 2%. And in order to ensure a continuity of power to customers, it is necesssary to have an alternative generator (fossil or nuclear, usully) running on constant stand-by to instantly pick up the load. Or in the case of Denmark, they do it by importing power from Germany, where it is mostly generated in coal-fired power-stations.

Net result? By the time you take that factor, plus the manufacture, erection, maintenance and distribution of wind power into account, these things actually produce MORE CO2/KWh than conventional coal or oil generation.

And whenever you hear or read of a wind-farm that is said to produce enough power to supply a town of, say 1,000 homes, remember that it will actually only power about 20 homes in real life.

96. Sir Wm: As usual you over-egg your anti-wind case.

'Wind turbines are the fastest growing of the renewable energy technologies in Scotland. Most turbines in the EU produce electricity at an average of 25% of their rated maximum power due to the intermittency of wind resources, but Scotland's wind regime provides average of 40% or higher on the west and northern coasts. A small wind farm on Shetland with three Vestas V47 660 kW turbines recently achieved a world record of 58% capacity over the course of a year.'
Wikipedia.

What! People would rather invest in renewable energy than have a tram? What is the world coming to.

I know a motorway fillingstation with restaurant etc at the German Belgian border which is "powered" entirely by one wind generator.
Renewable energy works but I have the sneaky feeling that some business and politicians do not like it - there is to much money invested in oil and its affiliated industries.

Here we go again. Following on from yesterday's story about illegal asylum seekers, it appears that there are Scots who neither like immigrants nor emigrants. In other words if you come here, get lost and if you leave here, don't come back. What an inclusive country we are. I am in despair.

Have I missed "It's Scotland's underwater hurricane"?

All the wild claims without the arithmetic and land mass to ratio output is just PR spin again.

Turbines in the air chopping birds and bats; turbines in the sea chopping dolpins, whales and every other sea creature, and all of this is so called eco friendly?

It's another money spinner for the rich whilst the rest of us all end up paying more in electricity costs, and so called green taxes.

Green credentials for politicians; green spin from company directors with their vast shareholdings thanks to YOU, the UK taxpayer who has funded up to 70% of the set up costs whilst the directors collect their free windfall shares! Your voice counts?

Forests are being destroyed for biofuels, wildlife chopped to pieces and our seas and countryside turned into industrial turbine factories. And that is being green?

Meanwhile we will all have to work even harder to pay for our green taxes or worse, sit at home with no power, either because it is produced intermittently or simly because there is not enough "green backs" to pay those huge green bills.

What spin will we hear next from the greenies?

96. further to your calculations, compare this:

Example: Novar Wind Farm
Rated Capacity: 17MW = 17000kW
Annual consumption of electricity from a home in Scotland = 3880kWh/year (gas heated)
= 10127kWh/year (electrical)
Assume capacity factor of 30%

Maximum Electricity Produced per annum (kWh) = 17000 * 8760= 148920000 kWh

Electricity Produced per annum (kWh) = 148920000 * 0.35= 52122000 kWh

Number of Homes = 52122000 / 3880
= 13433 gas heated homes
= 52122000 / 10127
= 5146 electrical heated homes

#101 hallo Melanthios

On the battlefield again? Renewable energy - Gaya and the Rainbow warriors, nut eaters and vegans.

I think I better go back to the work I'm doing, this clishmaclaver gets on my nerves.

Cheers, another time.

#107

Except according to Ofgem Novar produced 39,912,000kws in 2006 not 52,122,000. Same link as I gave you above. http://uk.geocities.com/scotwind06/output.htm

#8. Fayneant: Your so Negative, do you believe the union! Cause that's the way your coming across here.

I feel the similar feeling about Scotland as #7. Brisbane Scot and Last time I looked I was still in Scotland.

If I was to leave Scotland it would because I feed up with union / unionist lies and wanted to go somewhere which is home ruled.

No. 4 'Angus Lindsay'. Good stuff, Angus. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Can I just live up to my name for a second, and say that the idiom you used "reign it in" doesn't actually exist. The expression is "rein it in" (as in reins of a horse etc., i.e. taking control - not ushering in the reign of a monarch). Sorry, but this mistake has appeared in several novels, and I cringe every time I read it. (Maybe you read the same novels....). Sorry for being a "peign in the ....".

Power to the People...the Scots people, of course. But if there's any left over, we'll be sure to send it south to Joel Barnett and his cronies.

#99. I'm no really here: Aye, renewable energy will save us from New Nuclear power stations. Multi purpose use to this system.

As for Trams they only realy have one purpose.

English anger at SNP policies in Scotland? What does that mean? Are we saying that some English electors are angry ,because the legitimate actions of a Scottish government are more desirable than those of their own ,non devolved (by choice) parliament at Westminster?
If so, the answer lies in Westminster, at the next election,and can have absolutely nothing to do with the SNP ,who are a Scotland only party.

The estimates of numerous University studies is that Scotland's potential generation from renewables is such that the oil pales into insignificance by comparison,and the best part is renewables are permanent!
Scotland has once again won the lottery.

The last thing we should do is listen to the Unionists who will assure you that the way forward for Scotland is release the winning ticket into the wind and let it soar south to Westminster.
We were conned once .Shame on Westminster!
We are conned again ,shame on the Scottish people !

Anyone who thinks wind, wave & tidal power are the answers to our energy problems is living in cloud-cuckoo land.

The environmental effects alone are ghastly - and I do not just mean visually but also the affect on marine flora & fauna. Moreover, you would need miles upon miles of these projects just to provide a fraction of our energy needs - and that's before you take account of the energy and capital to build the projects.

Construction of renewable energy sources must be investigated whether the end product is reserved for Scotland only (silly) or for the greater good.But one must remember that in this case a tidal turbine requires not just the turbine but an alternator,a gearbox and a method of getting the power ashore and to the customer,all must be cabable of being maintained,not an easy task,ask the offshore engineers.
foreign bodies drawn into the tubines off whatever description will present a problem of maintenance,but with all the inherant drawbacks such an installation has if some one will put up the considerable finance it would be an interesting project.Whether it would deliver the benefits the good professor predicts remains to be seen,I would suggest his past history of "ideas" should be examined closely and draw ones own conclusions.

One thing that may knock this all on the head is if the oil companies get the returns they expect from untapped reserves around the Rockall shelf. I doubt very much that there will be miles of these tidal barriers built if it means they get in the way of oil tankers.

Stop talking and just get on with it!!!

If we could harness all the wasted wind coming out of the one fifth of the electorate who support independence we could generate enough electricity for every home in Buchan.

you kooks just need Don Quiote to head up theis project

How would changes in sea currents caused by global warming affect the outcome? Perhaps it's time to examine what we know and what is unknowable.

#110 - educational snob, Edinburgh

Why stop there...some people use the word 'loose'
instead of 'lose'... 'there' instead of 'their' ...'to' instead of 'too' and it isn't just people who 'post' in here, I've seen the same in the Scotsman.

It is like spelling and correct grammar doesn't matter.

It may not matter to adults, but could make a huge difference to children.

And punctuation is atrocious also, and worst of all is the lack of punctuation, some 'posters' type without commas, or periods, some even without spaces, their post become like one whole sentence.

I am not an Educational Snob.

People who would like to learn the English language
must have a lot of difficulty trying to figure out what people are trying to say, when they read, what others write or type.

Very few posters, on these threads, proof-read what they have typed before hitting the 'Post' button.

Time to go, eat my Porridge, then 'putt-putt' my wheelchair to the grocery store, before it gets too hot... Temperature to go to 30°C (86°F) today.
Have a good weekend, everyone.

In the ninteen seventies, I remember my dad quietly telling me that the power of the tide is the answer to electicity needs. It's coming true .

Do you have a wee fan in yer hoose for the hot day every year? Does it have a wee wire mesh roond it tae stop yer weans stickin their fingers in the blades? Right, put a wee cage roond these turbines and nae minced fish. Simple.

Besides, they turn pretty slowly as water is so much denser than air and carries a lot more energy.

And another thing, tides are controlled by the moon so changes in ocean current have zero impact. And finally, read up on these things, they are tidal stream turbines there will be NO BARRAGES. Just farms of turbines strategically sited round the coast.

Perhaps I have mis-understood # 3 "Jimmie The Pie"

When I think of the techology achievements I have seen recently, like super bridges in Hong Kong and France and tunnels/bridges in Scandinavia and elsewhere, I can not believe it is impossible to overcome The Pentland Firth. The opportunity is about to arrive to allow Scotland to generate much more electricty than it actually needs right now.

That means cheap electrity which means cheap hydrogen / oxygen, which in turn means all the jobs Scotland can handle because the manufacturers will line up. Lets think with some adventure and work out how electricty can be free of charge and free of pollution. Lets dare to think like that!!!!

A couple of points

The Economist reported yesterday that California, which has installed more renewables than anywhere else continues to struggle for energy.

Most of the radio active waste is 'generated' from medical sources. I assume thos who object to nuclear power on the grounds of waste will refuse to have any treatment for illness for themselves and family which requires radio therapy.

Water power is wonderful, but is it as cost effective as nuclear, or should we have both.

# 121

"It is like spelling and correct grammar DOESN'T matter"

And apparently not even to you, Haggis!

# 75 & 78

Haven't read all posts yet so your question might already have been answered but here goes.

Torness has about 1300 MW (megawatts of capacity). Margaret is referring to this but incorrectly uses MWh (megawatt hours). Your meter at home measures the number of kWh (kilowatt hours) used in your home.

If you have, say, a 2kW fire on for one hour your meter would advance by 2kWh.

MW is instantaneous power and MWh is energy.

Simple!

#121. Haggis MacBagpipes: It's a very difficult language to spell and get grammar right, so anyone who's learning should feel at ease that even those of us who speak English as a 1st language struggle with the written language.

#90 Peter

Sorry to disagree with you but the capacity of a wind farm is fixed ie 20 turbines with an output of 2MW each means that the windfarm has a capacity of 40MW. What you are referring to is "availability" which as you rightly say is about 20%.

Hey Cheereequinee,

That is when my dad spoke to me about it. As I said in my previous post he also warned that if you fight the sea it will fight back and will always win.

Its great to see so many posts on this topic, but as someone mentioned earlier its not about Scotland developing something to hold as a threat to England. My idea on Independance varies a bit on a lot of the posters on here. I thought the idea was to empower Scots to determine their own future direction by joining the world community and promoting Scotland as the smart race. A country who would welcome investment and is ready to take its talent to the world. I understand the emotion being shown by both sides but at the end of the day the land belongs to all Scots. Christ there is enough arguing going on amongst Scots with religous bigotry and what Town you come from or if your Rangers/Celtic as it is. Scottish Nationalist, of which I am a strong believer in, are meant to believe in each and EVERY Scots rights with the common bond of our land to keep us focused on what we can do as a people to make things much better. Not only today's generation but future generations. I personaly would sell electricity, Hydrogen,Clean Coal to whoever wanted it.

We would all do better if we win our argument with each other by sound reasoning. Some of the Unionist are party members of Union Labour, Tories,LibDEms. They might never agree but that is their choice, providing they show the same respect to our point of view. Independance is coming, even Brown knows that. It is just a matter of when. theres a lot of picking a fight to go on by Big Alex yet, because these ar#ehole* are going to try everything they can to destroy him and the SNP.

Getting on to forums is great but in the case of something like the sea Turbines should be debated amongst ourselves. You are the Future.

#100 They must get frequent power cuts if what you are saying is true!

Very interesting article and some good debate on this. For the record, connecting from the Pentland Firth to the National Grid should be relatively simple; there is a substantial power line from Dounreay which formerly powered the Invergordon aluminium smelter and a similar line from the south to the same destination.

We now need Prof Salter's ducks to actually start producing power but if the potential is there to provide clean electricity while also assisting in alleviation of the unemployment problems of the Highlands then the scheme is worthy of very serious consideration.

Is this something that our MSPs will be involved in or is energy policy reserved for Westminster? If the former then I feel we have a much better chance of a solution.

Well done Scotland! England has similar resources in the Wash and Severn but vested interests and John Prescott have diveted interest towards grotesque windfarms and terror-vulnerable nuclear abominations. Maybe you can show the Sassanachs how to do it?

I go with this comment made at the top of the page:

Auckland Arab2 / 1:31am 23 Jun 2007

With all the benefits of this resource heading swiftly over the border in return for a slightly diminshed Barnett formula. Wake up Scotland before this heads the same as oil revenues or are you happy being the poor relations of the United Kingdom.

#12 Haggis MacBagpipes said

"And punctuation is atrocious also, and worst of all is the lack of punctuation, some 'posters' type without commas, or periods, some even without spaces, their post become like one whole sentence."

Was this paragraph ironic? If so..ignore the following:

1 Full stop after punctuation.
2 Capital letter at some.
3 Full stop after periods.
4 Thereafter it's a bit garbled. The addition of colons, or semi-colons would have helped

(a pedant's reply)

ps...I bet I've made an ar$e of something!

I personaly liked the idea of an earlier post who has said we need to keep our power options open by not putting all our eggs in one basket so to speak. Thats with the exception of Nuclear Power. We want our bairns to have a safe future. I think there should be the same here as there is in California and Australia. There should be grants to encourage old housing into more self sufficiency. Solar Panels on every roof. All new houses to have Solar Panels. If they were used mainly for the heating of water like they are in OZ, the savings for every householder would be fantastic. I understand that in California they do this with low consumption electricals eg lights, TV, Radio. Solar Panels are a lot more efficient now than they were 15 years ago. All houses must be properly insulated and have a minimum of double glazing. I know its expensive because I have just paid for it in my Scottish house.

Big Alex needs to find out from Paisley how much is their water turbine is costing and where did they get the money for it. He needs to put the capital B on Scottish Power for a sizeable amount of Funding. And he needs to have the Professor hand over research into a turbine located up north with full costings and running costs. He must have a good idea because he is involved with the Irish one. This would be a good example of Celtic co operation in their joint future.

I truly hope Scotland and Ireland succeed where Ancient Persia failed, when King Xerxes had
the sea waves whipped when they failed to cooperate with Persian efforts to build a pontoon bridge on their way to fight the ancient Greeks. Obviously, technology has advanced a wee bitty!
Canada might do the same as the Scots and Irish with harnessing the immense tidal action off the coast of Nova Scotia - there you go again - the Scots' blessed union with and use of the sea!

#136 Melanthios.

You ARE a pendant.

The Bay of Fundy off the coast of Nova Scotia was the place I was trying to think of where the tide is very powerful, incidentally, in my previous comment. (To #139 McBride, no, Melanthios is not a "pendant." Maybe "pedant" was the word you were looking for, Frank McBride, and I can imagine why!

To: -
1. Auckland Arab2
3. Jimmy the Pi
4. Angus Lindsay e,
7. Brisbane Scot
10. Richardinho

And all the others who are commenting here. This technology had been effectively suppressed by the last New Labour Administration. Do not let this happen again.

The SNP are supportive of this type of Scottish Technological Development but will have difficulty in obtaining funds (our own money) from central government to support this activity. An Independent Scotland would not have this problem.

If you and others feel as I do, then support the petition, currently being raised, to demand a referendum on Scottish Independence. The target is 100,000 signatures for the petition. It would be difficult for any government to deny such a referendum.

N.B. This is a petition to have a referendum, not the referendum itself!

#140 JK

The comment wasn't directed at you. Perhaps you would care to read the thread.

121. Haggis MacBagpipes, Central Canada

First and foremost, these columns are about communicating thoughts and ideas. Some are not quite a literate as others, but that does not devalue their opinion or contribution to the forum. If they can convey their meaning, then that is all that is required. This is neither an English Class nor a Literary Society.

There is at least one severe dyslexic person, whose courage and tenacity I greatly admire, who contributes regularly to these columns. Your comment insults effort of such persons and I suggest you apologies for your intemperate comments.

Teach the teachers!

#144. Absolutely! Everyone's contribution is important regardless of background.

It would be nice if the English teachers could actually teach proper grammar in school.

Sadly, most people find that their english grammar improves after learning a second language!

Whaur's Miss Jean Brodie?

Off topic...I'm neither a pedant nor an educational snob (I hope!), but the poor spelling and grammatical errors can grate a bit. However, I know people are trying to get their ideas and opinions across rather than impress us with their language skills. Few of us can claim to be flawless in the use of English.

Read 'Eats, Shoots & Leaves' by Lynne Truss and you'll no doubt find yourself in her cheering section. Her follow up book, 'Talk to the Hand' deals with the general rudeness that seems to have overtaken us.

Help spread these [volunteer sites] planet-wide and express real empathy~~~

~~~~~SUICIDE VACCINE~~~~~[It works, which is the only point, Eh?!]
http://CaptainChurch.proboards57.com
http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=24582
http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=15311
http://b4.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?user=ChurchCaptain
http://groups.google.com/group/TeenAnswers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TeenAnswers
http://groups.google.com/group/answers-for-teens
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/answers-for-teens
http://www.bev.net/users/homepages/JamesSorrell

Jim Sorrell [CaptainChurch]

Re Cook Strait, there were moves in this direction a few years back. Dont know what happened but I suspect Bechtel (behind the proposed murder of the Waitaki) used their significant leverage.
Personally I think the potential is huge ONCE we have really done our homework re environmental impacts. As far as I know none have been carried out re this technology to date. happy to be wrong though.
As for nuclear power??? Gee, isnt it a funny thing that the waste gets dumped and buried on lands belonging to indigenous nations instead of in the backyards of the wealthy.
Safe?? Phoeey. Get your head out of the sand ye daft wee man.

There is certainly a lot of energy in the Pentland Firth. The biggest problem might be how to store the excess electricity. Tidal power will cycle between producing full power and producing no power four times a day. On a small scale this would be fine, but on a large scale (gigawatts) it would be necessary to store the excess during the peak, and release it during the dip. Otherwise there is no way that the grid would cope with the fluctuation in power. This is not a trivial issue, though the article glosses over the magnitude of the problem. It is not easy to store gigawatt-hours of electricity.

At the moment there is no feasible way to deal with this storage requirement without making the electricity very expensive.

So tidal might be a small part of the solution but is not going to be the whole solution anytime soon. Certainly not before the current fleet of thermal powerstations needs to be replaced.

The Tides are not just due to the Moon, one third is due to the Sun, two thirds (roughly) to the Moon.
Our Cook Straight can have some very rough conditions, and would not be good place for power generation.

#128 AAArgh! "Torness has a capacity of 1300 mws" (actually it's 1200) - that means it produces 1300 mws in an hour! Hence 1300mwhs! Simple.

#148, Colin.

A bit of divergent thinking wouldn't go wrong.

Perhaps we could split water. Pehaps produce other clean fuels from other sources that may need super heating/charging. Pehaps we could get rid of PCBs non-biodegradable plastics. Maybe we could develop better, more efficient electric storage systems. Maybe all public/personal transport could be electrically powered.

I am not an engineer, so am probably not even close to potential uses for the projected output but, I am confident that there are many farsighted and innovative people out there who could utilise the results of this new technology.

139. frank mcbride, lusitania / 7:17pm 23 Jun 2007

#136 Melanthios.

"You ARE a pendant."

oh...you've looked!

Yes! Scotland needs this and the environment needs this. Don't let it out of your hands. Keep control of it so that there are strong Scots companies to compete. Your people and country need the revenue.

#151 Frank, "Maybe we could develop better, more efficient electric storage systems."

That would be nice, but I don't think you grasp the extent of the problem. If we could store energy efficiently this would effectively solve all our energy problems in one fell swoop (never mind tidal power). It is a really difficult problem though - it is the Holy Grail that would make renewable energy viable on a large scale.

(If it was easy to store energy cheaply, let me tell you, nuclear powerstations would already be doing this. They could store cheap electricity at night and sell it off at a premium during peak periods. They don't do this because storage on that scale is expensive.)

Certainly we could use the excess electricity from a tidal power station to split water into hydrogen. But this is not a particularly efficient process. It would be a wasteful way to use expensive tidal electricity - there are cheaper ways to do this. Producing heat would be even more wasteful - there are plenty of sources of waste heat - from thermal powerstations for example, and most of these are not utilised even though the heat is effectively "free".

The problem is, a tidal powerstation that was big enough to produce all of Scotland's electricity would in fact be producing twice as much as we needed at its peak 4 times per day, and nothing when the tide was slack 4 times per day. This would be difficult to smooth out (to put it mildly).

#154, Colin.

As I said, It's time to think out of the box.

After all, didn't people say, "we could never fly".
Can't we now speak, instantaneously, to people thousands of miles away?

As I said I'm not a scientist/engineer but..........

#1 and #3
Great post Ya All. Maybe this just might convince some who are insecure about Scotlands independence change their position on a very important subject. I think it would be so COOL if Scotland were to become TOTALLY self sufficient and independent state. And given Scotlands wonderful history,,,,,,I think it's very doable

GO SCOTTS !!!

Ah dear, Scottish power, is it? So already the potential wealth is leaving our country.

Alex Salmond, get the bum in gear and make this a Scottish government project. For once in history, allow the Scots to benefit from their natural resources and let the people believe in themselves to lift moral and national pride, create jobs and train our young to be employed.

Put Holyrood money into the developemnet of our university's brilliance and allow us to reap the rewards.

I, for one, wouldn't mind paying a wee bit more in taxes to enable us to reap this benefit. Please don't allow the Americans etc to come in and steal it from under our noses with our parliament's blessing.

As for helping England out with our excess power: of course we would. They are our neighbours and we are good neighbours.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the posted subject. But I just hafta say it anyway !

When I bring up a satalite view of Scotland,,,,Something DEEP inside of me crys out "I want to go home" I must be losing my mind. Because I have never even been to Scotland !
My ancestry search ends in Scotland with the McAlister clan. And I can find nothing further. I better stop here before they start chasing me with butterfly nets

144: Sanny

Thank you for sticking up for dyslexics. I am also one of those blessed with the Einstein likeness (not in appearance though).

My spelling may be unconventional, nonconformist, original, artistically creative, indicative of freethinking and individualism, a mark of distiction even, b ut it is NEVER wrong.

If you can correct it, you know what it is and what it conveys. The purpose of the words is communication. They have been successful in communicating.

Slixedya lures, KO!

#150 Margaret

I was trying to be helpful!

By the way margaret, I was one of the engineers who designed Torness (GEC Turbine Generators of Rugby) and I can assure you that there are two 660MW steam turbine generators installed there!

Pentland Firth is only one of a number of sites with vast amounts of tidal energy, In Argyll we have Corryvrechan, Cuan, Dorus Mor and Loch Etive all of which have fast tidal races and the tide peak flows are about 5 hours behind the north of Scotland which would give continuety of supply. Put in an underwater power cable down the west coast to tap all the tidal flows and you would have an constant supply of electricity which would meet all our needs and most of the rest of the UK.
The technology to do this has been available for most of the last century all thats been lacking is the will and the cash when coal was cheap.
How about it Alec a big investment for a bright future.

Watched this technology on the tele recently!
Basically the same as Wind Mill Power that we have
in some of the States. Probably will take several
years to iron out the faults. But I personnally
think it's a good idea and worth the current
powers to be to "R & D" this new potential of
un-tapped power. I also think once the kinks are
ironed out it will be a advancement for all us
energy consumers one way or another!

#162 I think you may have the answer there. A 3 hour difference would be best. A 5 hour difference is nearly as bad as a 6 hour difference or 0 hour difference - when peak flow would coincide. The ideal place to balance the tide in the Pentland Firth would be somewhere around Cape Wrath. I've no idea if there is a suitable channel there though.

All these 'conventional' marine turbines suffer from the same problem - they are all intermittent - GENTEC venturi is not

Also, putting the capture device low in the water column loses over half of the power available at the surface d'oh

Not withstanding new sources of energy are fine, however, what is Scotland going to do with the cost of living in this country? It's outrageous.

Why not develop the God given sources that are found at Pentland Firth? One hundred and fifty years ago, no one even knew of the existance of oil underground and now the world cannot do without it. Now with the current, you have one of the mightiest underwater sources of power in the entire world.

Will you turn your heads and say "nay"? That would be foolish and everyone knows that Scots are not foolish people. Where is your sense of pride. God gives you so much and yet you do not even say "thank you".

I think we are past the days of nationalsit arguments. Getting together for the best might well be a good way of thinking and working. There are other parts of the world where tidal power can be sourced and exploited. Let's do it.

Does this new project actually mean that there would b e enough energy to propel the land mass of the UK into the Indian Ocean and enjoy a reasonable climate all year round? Or was the floating island just in Gulliver's travels?

121
The content will always matter more than the presentation ,and thats obvious,but it also follows that if you master both, then your communication skills enhance what you say and clarify what you mean.
I am guilty of not using punctuation,having enough problems in trying to master typing.
Many of my errors are caused by medicines ,which affect my eyesight,rather than a lack of education,and quite honestly I have found that the people who make an issue of such are usually capable of grammar and punctuation but distinctly lacking in anything else.

If the meaning is there it will eventually be understood by anyone with half a brain.

Its simply not that important, and educational snob is well named, but no more nor less capable ,as a result of his attention to detail.
Some of the most gifted engineers I ever met could barely read and write , but they sure knew their jobs!
When I want a bridge built ,Im not asking the guy who can recite Keats !

162 "Pentland Firth is only one of a number of sites with vast amounts of tidal energy, In Argyll we have Corryvrechan, Cuan, Dorus Mor and Loch Etive "

Add ta dat: Yell Soond, Bluemool Soond and da Sumburgh Roost. Near infinite, regular as clockwork power.

#168
How you going to that, force them to buy at non market rates?
Fu~~ing #anker

Dear all ,
Bear in mind that the tricks for generation of hydroelectric power on the coasts of Scotland can be used just as well , and probably done more economically , around the coasts of England . Plenty of tidal races , inlets , estuaries etc down here .

eg The English Channel
The Bristol Channel
The Wash
Thames estuary
Morecambe Bay
The Tee etc etc

and then there's always The Solway Moss
- er , I mean Firth .

#20

>>
the answer as every normal person knows is nuclear energy This would go a long way toward cleaning the air and reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
<<

The big picture is, there isn't enough nuclear fuel on earth to cover world energy needs for more than a couple of decades, if that. And fusion, as they say, is the power source of the future, and always will be.

On the face of it, nuclear burns cleaner, OK, that's nice. "Greenhouse gas emissions" may fall, but in turning some of the mass of earth into energy, it will make a net contribution to global warming. It will make the earth warmer, geddit ?

Tidal and wind energy capture take the enrgy we need out of the environment, therefore making no net difference to the energy withing the earth's system (we take it out of the environment then it goes back there when we use it to move around, stay warm or whatever).

You can understand these things by using the two skills areas, (1) thinking and (2) sums - skills also useful when shopping. Just ask and obey.

"ScottishPower believes its system could generate up to a gigawatt (GW) of electricity - equivalent to all of Scotland's wind farms put together, or the power produced by the Hunterston B nuclear power station."

ALL of Scotland's wind farms put together = 1 GW? ... if that's true we're going to need a lot more windmills, the one's all the nimbys are whinging about, spoiling the countryside etc.

Anyone wanna build a nuclear power plant, in case it gets dark and cold?

Does this mean that the Middle East might now regain the obscurity it once enjoyed, and oh so richly deserves to regain? What a happy thought!

Could harnessing massive amounts of energy in the Pentland Firth affect/divert the Gulf Stream that warms us? If so, we'd end up using the excess power to keep us cosy....

What are the chances that private enterprise get together and fund this research and testing in a bit to "do their bit" Obviously they would reap some sort of reward finacially from the sottish public but would then have the rights to selling the power to the south at a non subsidised rate (As Noth of the border would pay a subsidised rate) This way government interference would be limited as they own no rights due to funding etc. (Until they try and hijack it) and it would be a massive plus to Scottish industry as far as green energy usage which is becoming more of an issue to consumers world wide. This may well result in a boost of foreign revenue directly to Scotland through increased exports etc. and not to some head office in London. Im sure private enterprise here could get it together.

I first saw the light of day in a small village in Caithness called Castletown. The stormy Pentland Firth
was on our doorstep and I grew up with a healthy respect for the Firth. We were told it was considered to be the roughest piece of water in the world. Many ships and lives were lost there and many wrecks littered the shores. If the awesome power of the Firth can be harnessed for a good cause then I say "Full steam ahead". Caithness could use the benefits of being on the shore of the Pentland Firth.

Those talking down renewable energy are talking out of their arses! When as the last time there wasn't any wind in Scotland? Coastal breezes caused by the difference in temperature between land and sea mean constant breeze, and when added to the effects of the jet stream, which is only less prevalent during high summer, Scotland has some of the best climatic conditions in the world for wind.
As for scenic detriment, wind turbines are less intrusive and more appealing than electricity pylons which cross our landscape with the support of the Nuclear Lobby. I don't support the development of turbines on the top of our mountains or off-shore due to the very expensive construction costs and transmission connection costs, which is why we need to generate on existing sites of pylons across Scotland, to produce a base electricity supply to augment production with a variety of methods alongside energy saving and insulation.

#180 , that isn't even poor science that is just pure thick, for pity's sake if we harvest the wind or tide or any other natural resoure that comes our way how on earth do we impact on the original source of that energy. what a ridiculous argument, If we harvest the wace energy on the west coast we impact on the weather in New York.

#179 the middle east is the craddle of MOST of our modern religions, including christianity and muslims. the demise of ridiculous and out of date beliefs can only be encouraged i suppose.

What we really wait for though is the demise of the influence of the USA of global politics.

#178 of so right, you have no idea how much generation is actually down right now, notice te dark????

clueless comment

173 aye an thit's nowt tae the muckle hit air this cums frae victoria quay. or is thit jist victoria, wha kens

168 we laready do, Scotland has a massive over generation capacity, we export to england as france does.

the question is in the future do we have to capacity ot generate our energy needs without generating uneccasary waste or pollution. beyond that can we charge england the cost?? oh how the tables turn

#188

So if it's "Scotland's electricity and exports",

Scotland will pick up the bill for decommissioning
the nuclear power stations I assume?

On second thought's, as your a muppit dont bother answering..

I have always felt that tidal power was the onl way to go.

#177 Jock, the amount of heat that is added to the atmosphere by nuclear power stations (or any other human activity for that matter) is utterly trivial compared to the amount added by the sun. Every square km is subject to roughly a gigawatt of solar radiation. Adding up the total surface area amounts to several hundred million power stations. A few dozen more gigawatts from manmade sources makes very little difference.

The concern about climate change is not related to the heat we generate directly, but the greenhouse gasses that trap solar radiation and cause excess heating. That is why fossil fuel is bad and nuclear power is good because it produces a smaller amount of greenhouse gas per kWh than other sources of generation (including most renewables).

#191 Colin - thanks for my lesson for the day.

If only the greenhouse gases could trap solar radiation *out* of the atmosphere for a while, eh ?

Yes, nuclear power can maybe be a stopgap until we settle on [whatever we're going to do once the oil and uranium have both run out]. Just so long as costing is done realistically, including all of the full-term storage / disposal burden, as others have said above.

What do you expect to see ? Tidal and wind ? Or big mirrors in the desert and long-distance DC transmission ?

Scotland has never stopped producing engineering minds. It would please me greatly to see the average Scot benefit from the potential that lies off the coast of Scotland. When I visit Scotland, I pay some of the highest prices in the world for gasoline which I have still not been able to understand seeing as how the oil is just off its shore. I wonder if it is the same for the average Saudi.