This has got to be one of Scotlands biggest items of Shame. Is there a link beween the attitude of Scottish men towards womens rights and the rate of convictions.
Yes we continually hear how difficult it is to prove rape occured and yes we must ensure Justice is served by finding guilt and the rights of the innocent, but lets face it women should have the right to go about their lives without the danger of someone deciding it is alright to abuse/rape them.
Surely with all the reported advances in scientific crime investigation that the conviction rate should be higher.
The article the other day about teaching young kids about sectairism should include education on sexism. All Scottish people have the right to go about their business, its up to Scotlands Government to make sure they can do it in a save comfortable enviroment. No Excuses and definately No Acceptance of the Status Quo.

Its time for all Scots to stand up for womens rights.

It will be interesting to see how many posts this subject gets. Any person who believes in the right of Scots to determine their own future has to support the rights of Scottish Women. Our country has been raped by hundreds of years deprivation.

#3. You are a complete idiot and an embarrassment to the Scottish people.

There is some evidence that for every 7500 offences committed on our roads only one is prosecuted, and not all of these produce a conviction. 10 to 15 people are killed every day, and thousands are injured, some maimed for life. The hysteria of public and politians for more rape convictions, together with the energy of the police and prosecutors, could be better deployed.

I am with #3 the Fly Fifer (although I wouldn't have put it so emphatically)
I suspect that many of these reported cases are made by women who wake up in the morning and feel a bit guilty or claim rape to avoid embarrassing questions from husband or family.

The tragedy unfolded on the wrongly accused man in these cases is equally devastating and needs to be considered by those like #4 Princeton.

No question, though, that violent sex attacks need to be punished to the full extent of the law!

#4

Thanks for that. You would be who , from where? Of course you can't argue with my comment other than to say I am a complete idiot.

The facts speak for themselves, I know lots of girls that have cried rape after leading guys on, cried it, prosecuted it and gained from it. So I speak from experiance not heresay.

No please, stay in America where you obviously belong.

#6

Well put. I agree with your last sentence and stand by my original post.

Just another side effect of how morals seem to have disappeared from society.
Another consequence of so-called 'freedom'.

#1/2 - well put my friend. As for posters saying the majority of rape victims are liars etc - shame on you. Whilst there may be the occasional woman who lies about sexual assault the VAST majority are genuine and are made to suffer a second time by being humiliated in court. I am sure I do not need to remind you of the suicide of one particular Ayrshire girl who was destroyed by this unjust system. Well over due time this was sorted out.

Lie detectors must be used. One person's word cannot be held to be more important than another's. Rape is a serious crime so there needs to be evidence - not conviction on the balance of probability or political correctness. 'Conviction rate' to me is a very stalinist term.

#2. I fail to see what your 2nd post has got to do with the subject at hand. Please keep your politics out of a Scottish issue. If you choose to live in Brisbane, the "our country" bit is a tad precious when there have been more than a few rapes/sexual assaults that haven't even got near to having anyone charged, let alone convicted!

I suspect Fly Fifer is playing Devil's Advocate a bit here. While there are certainly instances of false accusation I doubt that this is reflected in statistics which show 1 conviction in 109 allegations.

#11

Yes, an excellent idea. I think Lie Detectors should be used on BOTH parties. I am not trying to detract from the seriousness of the crime if committed. I question the accuracy of the statistics and honesty of a lot of the "Implied Victims". There are a lot of innocent males out there who have been tarnished by the rape brush, unfairly and unjustly. Over the years, women have become overprotected at the expense of the male species wrongly accused and unfairly hounded at the whim of an angry woman!

#13

Perhaps.

Very emotive subject this. Frightening consequences of genuine rape, frightening consequences of false accusation/conviction.

Made worse by media hysteria and interference; to the point whereby men are now made to feel like a potential rapist at any given point.

The only solution does seem to be leaning toward some sort of lie detection, especially if it's one word against the other and no DNA evidence.

Another problem is the gathering of DNA evidence from the victim. I believe it's very obtrusive and unpleasant.

While there has been many cases of women feeling guilty after the event of consensual sex assuaging their guilt by crying rape (which is open to the defence to use undermining future cases it is these are a small fraction of reported cases) the poor rate of convictions just exposes the Crown office announcements on this issues over the last few years as hot air. Elish should be ashamed of herself

#3 I am sure that there are women who do this, however what these stats dont give is the number of unreported rapes, those that take place for example in the bed of their partners in a case where the relationship is deteorating. I have spoken to a number of people in this field and the cases where this happens is quite staggering. Rape is a vile act a method of debasing women and occassionally men too, and I am somewhat disgusted about the tone of the comments here, do you believe the same thing happens with child abuse?

If we put aside the question of how many cry wolf, and also those who just feel guilty the next day, possibly when they sober up, we are left with a difficulty.

A woman genuinely raped has to prove the case. This is often difficult. The reason most cases fail, it seems to me, is the lack of real proof. Without this it is not possible to convict.

I understand that 80% or more women know the rapist, as the madman stalking them in the bushes is in fact a rarity, so finding the culprit is easy. It is proving actual rape which is difficult.

I think we are entitled to ask why the Scotsman has printed this tale today? The reason is, there is no real news. This emotive story is in fact just a space filler. Once again the paper uses the readers, with no regard for the feelings engendered.

I must also ask, why is it women from the USA appear on such threads? Do they sit there tracking them down worldwide so they can tell us their problems?

Either there's enough evidence to convict beyond reasonable doubt or there's not. We still have a justice system which seeks to give the defendant the benefit of any doubt and the ideal that it's better to acquit several guilty people rather than prosecute an innocent. Do we instead want communist style prosecution quotas? They led to mass convictions of innocent people under Stalin and Mao.

Rape is one of many unpleasant crimes but it is blown out of all proportion by the women's lobby. It's apparent that many (perhaps even most, who knows? despite the denials from 10 above) allegations of rape are unfounded and the police with their experience to draw on take no action. The allegation and its attendant publicity often destroys the man's life while the woman goes unpunished even if found by the court to have lied. Until this disparity is addressed there is likely to be at least some bias in favour of the man.

Perhaps protecting the anonymity of the accused at least until a decision was taken to prosecute would go some way to redressing the balance and make it more possible for the prosecution services to act fairly?

More and more jurors will have been in the situation themselves where they have had casual or opportunistic sex with a drunk, semi drunk or stoned woman (or man) and then the next day wondered about what exactly happened the night before. More and more jurors will have engaged in forms of sexual relations that in the past might have been considered dubious but are just part of their preferences these days. These jurors won't want to think of themselves as potential or actual rapists. They might imagine their own sons and daughters in the same situation and would not want them convicted. I think it is inevitable that it will remain difficult to obtain a rape conviction without a significant intervention from the state to change the way we live and think. I can't see that happening very quickly. Is it desirable?

Women's and Feminist groups had done a great diservice to society by having painted all men as potential rapists, and abusers. The false and fabricated statistics they use encourage women to believe that if they make false allegations against men they will win. Consequently, sadly, some women chose this route, to seek revenge against men they believe have not treated them fairly, have been unfaithful etc. Hence the rise in the number of false allegations against men, including those of rape, sexual assualt, sexual abuse, and Domestic Violence, and child abuse. Men in recent years have been depicted as EVIL, been derided and humiliated from school to the work place. The constant demand to increase "Conviction Rates" (regardless if justified or not) by hysterical radical feminsit women's groups has led to a society of fear and alienation where trust between men and women has eroded, and continues to decline. At the same time, calls to increase prosecution rates against perjury, false allegations, misuse of Police time and resources have been been drowned by the yearly, and quarterly demands to send more men to prison for alleged crimes of rape, to reduce the standard and burden of proof to "balance of probability" and the like. At the same time, fewer than 4% pf the prison population is women, when police crime statistics show that women commit a far larger proportion of (serious) crimes than 4%.

It is also rather unfortunate that police investigations of rape are conducted by FPU (Family Protection Units). This colours and biases members of the police forces when they are asked to deal with Family conflict. It changes their "vision" and they are far more likely to accept that a man/father is the cause of the unrest and trouble in a family situation. This Police bias in handling the very complex and delicate situations of Family cases, is causing untold suffering and injustice, as the wrong aggressor is often pursued, w

No3 If you think that 108 women have lied out of 109, assuming the courts got it right, then you are indeed an idiot.

No5 Do you not think rape is also violent ?

No11 Lie detectors are a must. They are not 100% accurate but used in conjunction with other evidence they would help significantly.

Are there so many ostriches on these boards or do they just hate women.

Being a man is not a crime, is not inferior.

Yes it is...

Dougie and Rulesbutnotrulers,

As much as one sympthises with victims of rape, I have to agree with you guys about the right of men to have the basic principle of innocent until proven guilty. Your posts are spot on. However my earlier point is that we are continualy told about advances in science that make crimes almost impossible to deny if samples are taken. Surely there would be traces of the instigators DNA. That leads to the next question of how do you prove consensual or non consensual was the actual way things played out. At least lie detectors would give the police an inkling to whether the person is worth further investigation. It cannot be used in court, and according to reliability reports it should never be admissable.

Does anyone know what the feminists suggest besides cutting the hehaws off. Do they want the courts to assume guilt until proven innocent. Hmm tough one.

It's unfortunate that the requirement under the Scottish Crime Reporting Standard for the police to record every REPORTED rape has coincided with shocking levels of excess binge drinking and casual sex. Is it any surprise that Scotland has the lowest convistion rate for rape? We have the highest level of teen pregnancies, abortions, STDs etc etc. Until both sexes conduct themselves with a bit more self-respect and restraint, these shocking stats won't improve. Any number of initiatives by the police and Crown Office won't change the FACT that so many reported rapes are spurious.

I'd love to see the real-world statistics for supposed false rape claims because much of what has been written above seems like pure fantasy. Most normal sane women do not really want to be raped in the first place. Moreover they certainly do not want to face having their sexual histories, lifestyle choices, colour & style of underwear etc etc brought up in front of the police, let alone in court, or to be judged on the basis of this 'evidence' of their guilt or innocence in the kangaroo court of the British press.

The problem of low conviction rates is entirely due to the atrocious attitudes of people paid to investigate these crimes, ie the police and public prosecutors (and to some extent journalists). The police in general treat women as second class citizens and in the case of rape often exhibit real hostility towards women - seeing them as deserving all they get. However much spin is put on changing things and improving the situation for women it is just spin - until officers/prosecutors are forced to justify their decisions nothing will improve.

I am in favour of lie detector tests (though they are not the same thing as hard evidence) and anominimity for perpetrators if this leads to better
conviction rates. However as noted if those paid to do a job applied equal opportunities to their thinking it would vastly improve the prosecution/conviction rate and give people (women and men) a bit of faith in the system.

#5 - I take it you do understand the difference between accidental deaths through traffic incidents and the deliberate perpetration of a sex hate crime, which brutally victimises another human being.

Ooh, if ever I needed proof that most of youse are men, this is the strand to produce in evidence.
You are proceeding from the standpoint that all the men are innocent, which is commendable, but you are also proceeding from the standpoint that all the women who report rape are doing so are "morally bankrupt".
It takes a lot of courage for a woman to report a rape. Particularly when she knows that there is a 99% chance the prosecution will fail after she has been dragged through the courts and her reputation trashed by the defence. I suggest to you that these prosecutions are the tip of the iceberg and that violence against women, of which rape is just one symptom, is endemic in Scottish culture.

#1
"women should have the right to go about their lives without the danger of someone deciding it is alright to abuse/rape them."

Of course, but men should have the right to go about their lives without the danger of being maliciously accused and being convicted and jailed without the same judicial safeguards that apply to other crimes.
If we can't safely raise the rate of conviction then we should use stronger sentencing for those who are convicted and strong sentencing for those who make false accusations.

Don't know if it's entirely liek that Jennie, albeit I take on board what you have written.

What I see here is a symptom of a generally corrupt socity whereby men are now on the defensive regarding this as we generally do not like to be made to feel like a potential rapist, child molestor or violent persons, whereas the vast vast majority of us are honest decent guys with a minority muddying our good name.

It happens amongst the female population too whereby you have women crying wolf or doing daft things like trying to sleep their way to the top of theri career (yes it still happens).

The media hysteria has made it so that if us guys see a distressed and lonely child in the street after losng his/her mam, we just walk on by. Same with injured or distressed women, we just walk on by for fear of being accused of of something. Now that is a sad state of affairs.

no 25 they do just hate women.as if the majority of complainants just have bad sex then join the queue at the polis to have an internal examination, relive the experience, and if anyone is prosecuted, do the same in court in front of strangers a few months later. the attitudes on this thread could stop victims of rape from coming forward.and if men are such a repressed lot, how come women are being raped and rapists are getting away with it?

30 jennie

"I suggest to you that these prosecutions are the tip of the iceberg and that violence against women, of which rape is just one symptom, is endemic in Scottish culture."

Am I right in saying that is the type of phraseology used by womens groups? No point in contributing in a debate if you have a slanted view of men. I am not sure any have a slanted view of women here, unless you wish to read that of course.

33. sydglen

"and if men are such a repressed lot, how come women are being raped and rapists are getting away with it?"

The phrase 'getting away with it' indicates you have proof specific men are guilty. If so have you told the police? If not, remove your hatred of men and keep quiet. That way you might appear wise.

(26) Doreen the Cyber Hasbeen - You ought to be ashamed of yourself. You are part of the problem, not the solution! It is because of people such as yourself, who are allowed to spew their misandrist (anti-men) ugly views that women suffer! You would not have dared to post on this coloumn a comment suggesting that blacks, asian, jews, moslems are inferior or being one would be a crime. You should be banished to the dark corner from which you emerged you hate monger!

35 so, do you believe that the miniscule percentage of convictions is an accurate reflection of the incidence of rape in scotland? also, i dont hate men, just rapists and their apologists.

36 "it is because of people such as yourself, who are allowed to spew their misandrist(anti-men)ugly views,women suffer" Suffer how exactly, getting battered or raped perhaps?

No35 You don't have to be very wise to work out that some men are 'getting away with it' with a conviction rate of 1 in 109. Now do you ? As I said earlier, if you think 108 women out of 109 are evil, malicious, spiteful nutters then you are either stupid or ignorant.

@37

I cant see a single apologist for rapists on this forum so far...

all I can see is the difficulty in getting a conviction where there are seldom witnesses and it susually the case where its one (drunken) word against another...

I think you'll find that in any alleged crime, if there is only one word against another, then conviction rates are equally poor.

Whilst I agree these statistics paint a very unsavoury picture indeed,we should not lose track of the possibility that accusations are made for a variety of reasons,one of which is rape ,and whilst I do not wish to suggest this is widespread ,I cannot help thinking we are more concerned about how many convictions there are ,rather than whether they are justifiable.
Its never easy of course, but presumably evidence must exist in some shape or form before we proceed to court? The conviction rate does seem to be rotten to the core or at least suspect, but please do not suggest that false accusation is not commonplace also. I myself was accused by a drunken woman in Leith Walk because I tried to get her off the road which she had collapsed on.The police only believed me because I was not alone, combined with (and I appologise for saying this in advance) if I had genuinely been a rapist I would surely have gone for somebody this side of sixty!
This is one area where the feminist groups would appear to have some justification and we should be worried by this, but please bear in mind many accusations are nothing of the kind,and were thrown out of court as unsafe.Its debatable if they should ever have been there to start with.The majority of them are however ,possibly walking away scot free,when they should be guilty.
What we do about it Im not sure,but we should start by recognising we have NOT got it right.

#29 Dinah

Ironic that you use the name, aimed at us Neanderthal men, when it's you who seems to be stuck in the 1970s. You obviously know nothing about the invesigation of rape in the 21st century. You certainly insult those women police officers (and, shockingly, men) who are well-trained, sympathetic and professional in their dealings with rape victims. Have you asked any of them if they considered the police attitude 'atrocious'? I doubt it. And as for traeting women as second class citizens and with hostility, what a load of bollocks !!! You stay in your own wee anti-men, anti-police dream world, you obviously revel in your victimhood. Meanwhile, police officers of both sexes are trying their best to put real rapists and other criminal scum behind bars.

(37) Sydglen - So, to revrese the angle of your question, Do you believe then that Police, Prosecutors, juries and Judges (many of them women) discriminate against women, and nilly willy free men who can be proven to have committed rape? If you make such an accusation, or allegation, which is very serious, present your proof. Otherwise, ask yourself how you came to have such bias, and hatred towards men to question all those involved in the judicial process. How come you don's seem to acknowledge and question the high frequency of false allegations made by women (scorned, angry, disappointed, or otherwise hateful)? Why is there no doubt in your mind regarding the conduct of women? Have you been conditioned to believe that all men are evil, and potential rapists, murderers? How did you come about this view? Have you ever considered all women as potential prostitutes, child abusers, and husband beaters?

# 1.....there should be no such thing as WOMEN'S RIGHTS...in a properly run society we should all be citizens with equal rights.......in cases of alleged rape where there are no independent witnesses and the case cannot be proven beyond ALL reasonable doubt then the accused MUST be given the benefit of the doubt....the best defence a woman has against the danger of rape is to use her COMMON SENSE and avoid locations and situations where it could possibly occur.One person's word against another's is not good enough for to secure a conviction.

you just dont seem to find rape a very serious crime, more an ambivalent drunken fumble. do any of you have any female relatives,because a lot of you seem smug.

#3 & 6, There will always be people who stand wrongly accused of ANY type of crime, no matter what it is. But to say that 108 out of 109 reported rapes are false because women have a grudge against men is downright ludicrous.

I rather suspect that #3 & sidekick #6 can't keep their c8cks in their pants and just like to blame evil women with cleavage and short skirts for their hard ons. Or maybe they have a grudge cos they can't get it up. Whatever the reason for their blind misogeny, they sound like prize candidates for chemical castration.

If this post is deleted for causing offence I'll be insisting that #3 and #6 are also removed for causing massive offence to half the human race.

If you'd ever seen the effects of violent rape on a young innocent woman who is terrified to report the crime committed against her for fear of being at the receiving end of the filth that you've just produced here, you'd hang your head in shame.

I suppose #45 thinks that women should wear burkas and remain indoors unless accompanied by their husbands or fathers?

In the majority of cases the rapist is known to the woman and has usually been be a Friend, a Workmate, Relative or Husband. About 50% of rapes occur in the home of the woman or attacker.

@46

sydglen,

dont get all humpty,
all thats happened is your own biased view has been 'tested' on this forum and clearly has failed to be supported by yourself, other contributors, or any other facts or evidence.

You are entitled to hold your view, but please be aware that by posting it here you are open to legitimate challenge.

I dont think anyone has stated or even implied rape is not serious. Most people just seem to believe that we are on a slippery slope if we try to make it a 'special case' in the eyes of the law.

The problem is that most cases involve two people, known to each other and/or consensually together, and with no other witnesses. A 'Yes he did - no I didn't' scenario is usually not even worth bringing to court - a confrontational judicial system has no answer to this problem. And criminal charges are not decided on the balance of probabilities - but on the test of 'beyond reasonable doubt', which is as it should be.
Relying significantly on lie detection is unsafe.
There is no obvious way of significantly increasing the conviction rate to some arbitrary level without a high risk of jailing the innocent. As usual, the best solution is for both men and women to avoid getting themselves into situations where rape or allegation of rape are possible. That however is unlikely to make a significant difference at present levels of social behaviour and lack of sobriety.
Toom

#50, the best way to avid rape is for men to realise that no means no.

It is proven that the level of false reporting of rape is about the same as that for any other crime - 2%. The nature of the physical examination and the intimate questioning about a woman's life when she reports rape makes it highly unlikely that any woman would use this as an 'excuse'.

Many rapists appear perfectly normal. They often have steady jobs and consensual relationships with wives and girlfriends. Many people believe that men who sexually assault women are loners, incapable of forming relationships or leading normal lives. The popular image of a rapist is of someone who spends all his time lurking in bushes ready to pounce on lone women. The police interviewed Peter Sutcliffe nine times before they discovered that he was the Yorkshire Ripper. He didn't fit their image of a mass rapist and murderer because he was married, had a steady job and a nice home. This is how it is with many attackers. When a woman suffers rape from her husband or a man she may have known for a long time, it is hard to call him a rapist because she will feel that no one will believe her. She fears people will accuse her of corrupting a respectable man. This is because people don't realise what rape involves.

It is a fact that most people are capable of having a drink without attacking another human being. This remains an excuse that some people use to take responsibility away from the rapist.

Men do not have uncontrollable urges. They are not incapable of stopping sexual intercourse once it has begun. There is no scientific evidence to suggest that men have 'stronger' sexual drives than women. This is an inaccurate belief rooted in society, not a fact. It is not women's responsibility to control men's sexuality. This myth is just another convenient excuse.

sydglen and disclosure - excellent examples of why male posters here make the comments they have posted. It is you two promoting irrational prejudice and in the case of disclosure a disturbing prediliction for violence. No offence, but perhaps you both need counselling.

#47
Noone in their right mind is suggesting that rape is anything other than a brutal crime of power over women or that women 'ask for it'. But when you say that #3 and #6 are the types of men who can't keep their bits in their pants, you're doing all women a disservice. Women these days are reaping the rewards of their 'libertion'.There are loads of women, particularly young women, who can't keep their knickers up. Just go down the Cowgate or up Lothian Road of a weekend and see the reality. Men and women, pished, copping off with complete strangers and indulging in anonymous sex. Is it any surprise that many change their minds in the morning and hide their own self-disgust as a rape? Hang rapists in my view but people, including women, should take responsibility for their own lack of self control.

And after #52 I should add - patronising. Neither of you can understand the average respectable hetereosexual male because neither of you are capable of attracting such males either as partners or friends. Your views are therefore based on things other than personal experience.

**RAPISTS are almost ten times more likely to be found guilty in some parts of Scotland than in others. ** WRONG!

'Alleged rapists' is the description that should be used here.

Why, exactly, should rape be treated differently to say, murder, torture, serious assault leading to permanent physical injury etc etc ? It is because, unlike other crimes, rape is intricately tied up with gender politics. This is most clearly seen by the determination of politicians to interfere in the judicial process (a process they happily leave alone for every other crime) in order to produce results they feel more comfortable with.

The conviction rate for 'stranger rape' has remained constant. The problem has been in the area of so-called date-rape where both parties agree that sexual intercourse occurred but disagree about the issue of consent. Clearly, under those circumstances, juries have difficulty in convicting, mindful of the consequences on the accused of a guilty verdict.

It seems to me that some people will not be happy until we have a system were a man is convicted and sentenced on nothing more than the accusation of a woman. How inconvenient that we still cling to the old fashioned idea that you have to PROVE wrongdoing before we bang people up for years.

#34 Ichabod - no, I am not a member of a "woman's group". But I used to be a girl ;) ...and am now the proud mother of four sons, one married, two single and dating, one in a stable relationship, so I possibly have a slightly more balanced view than you do.

#53, I can state with all honesty that I'm probably the least 'anti-male' person you ever meet. I am, however, anti-rape and that's what is being discussed here. Remember, normal, wonderful, men can, and do, control their sexual urges. Rape is an act of violence and a way of gaining power, not a sexual act. AND men are also raped, it's not just women.

#55, LMAO.

You just don't like facts and instead attack the messenger.

Plonker!

#53 IWright - I think you are part of the problem. Disclosure's post #52 was measured and reasonable. I agree with it. I am not (as stated in #57) a member of a "woman's group" - though I sit on many committees in our community, they are all mixed gender (!)
I have been married (to a man), have had other long term relationships (with men), and have many (heterosexual) male friends, some of whom amazingly (I am the wrong side of 50) find me attractive enough to want more than friendship. Men are lovely, as most people are lovely.

I do think that things are confusing nowadays; girls wear provocative clothes, sex is used to sell nearly everything, binge drinking is seen as socially acceptable and the end result is often a confusing situation.
The widespread (at least in this strand) attitude that women are grasping, controlling, manipulative, "asking for it", and that it's OK to slap them or that they don't mean it when they say "no" - that's unacceptable.

"#29 I take it you do understand the difference between accidental deaths through traffic incidents and the deliberate perpetration of a sex hate crime, which brutally victimises another human being."

Most of these "accidents" are caused by drivers who get themselves drunk, use their mobile phones while driving, are naturally reckless, impatient, or selfish. The conviction rate is lower than that for alleged rapes, and the penalties are usually trivial compared with the crime.

Disclosure,

No, what is being discussed, is the CONVICTION rate in relation to ALLEGED rape. Some of the women on here think that must because the criminal justice system is somehow institutionally sexist or incompetent. Others obviously think all men are b******s and potential rapists. You, in particular, just can't seem to accept (and I apologise if I'm wrong) that a very large percentage of rapes reported to the police are not, and never were, rapes as defined by the law or even as would be accepted by your average person. A retrospective self-disgust does not a rape make.

#42 Most theories suggest that modern men, modern humans, are not actually descended from Neanderthals. The Homo sapien branch of the family lived and evolved in parallel with the Neanderthals but was genetically separate. In any case, the Neanderthals have received a lot of bad press and were actually pretty intelligent caring social beings until, as is thought, they were wiped out by our ancestors.

I would love to believe that the police and other prosecuters really do their best for women however anecdotal evidence of victims suggests otherwise. Because of this I certainly wouldn't report a rape to the police and wouldn't advise any other women to. These statistics just confirm my distrust of the authorities will to protect women.

#36 I'm not anti-men, just anti-criminal bheviour and its apologists.

Please explain how it is that, "because of people like yourself...women suffer"?! I'm mystified. Are your seriously suggesting that because I challenge inequality women are being raped? Does that mean that women who challenge the male-dominated status quo deserve to be raped? Presumably you regret women getting the vote.

#48....regardless of where the offence is alleged to have taken place or identity of the person alleged to have committed it,the burden of proof still lies with the prosecution as it would do in any other criminal case....in fact the circumstances you have raised would make it even harder to prove that RAPE had occurred.

Dinah,

Thanks for that, I just so love being patronised. Can I ask what your last experience of a criminal enquiry or prosecution was? I'd love to know where us nasty men find all these Quisling women who are willing to sell out the sisterhood and join us in the big sexist conspiracy to let off rapists. All these women officers, women PFs, women ADs, sheriffs and judges (still not enough I know but I believe over 50% of qualifying solicitors are now women) who deliberately fail victims and ensure that the guilty go free. If you are in a position to give advice to a victim of crime, God help them.

#61 I agree that traffic crimes are terrible, I am not trying to downplay what goes on on our roads. I'm very much in favour of reckless drivers (who drink, use mobile phones or behave irresponsibly) getting tougher penalties.

The only thing is that comparing traffic accidents or incidents to rape is like comparing apples and bananas - they are different. However perhaps the solution to both problems is for our criminal justice system to have a complete overhaul, with the concept of the damage done to victims being given a higher priority than the rights of perpetrators.

Hot off the press from Australia. This kind of story reaffirms my faith in the human species.
You GOTTA Love this!!!!!!!
I hope her picture appears below.)

Gun-toting granny Ava Estelle, 81, was so ticked-off when two thugs raped her 18-year-old granddaughter that she tracked the unsuspecting ex-cons down - - and shot off their testicles.

The old lady spent a week hunting those men down -- and when she found them, she took revenge on them in her own special way, said Melbourne police investigator Evan Delp. Then she took a taxi to the nearest police station, laid the gun on the sergeant's desk and told him as calm as could be:

'Those bastards will never rape anybody again, by God.' Cops say convicted rapist and robber Davis Furth, 33, lost both his penis and his testicles when outraged Ava opened fire with a 9-mm pistol in the hotel room where he and former prison cellmate Stanley Thomas, 29, were holed up.

The wrinkled avenger also blew Thomas' testicles to kingdom come, but doctors managed to save his mangled penis, police said. The one guy, Thomas, didn't lose his manhood, but the doctor I talked to said he won't be using it the way he used to, Detective Delp told reporters. Both men are still in pretty bad shape, but I think they're just happy to be alive after what they've been through.

The Rambo Granny swung into action August 21 after her granddaughter Debbie was carjacked and raped in broad daylight by two knife-wielding creeps in a section of town bordering on skid row. "When I saw the look on my Debbie's face that night in the hospital, I decided I was going to go out and get those bastards myself 'cause I figured the Law would go easy on them," recalled the retired library worker. "And I wasn't scared of them, either-- because I've got me a gun and I've been shootin' all my life. And I wasn't dumb enough to turn it in when the law changed about owning one."

So, using a police artist's sk

Now, baffled lawmen are trying to figure out exactly how to deal with the vigilante granny. What she did was wrong, and she broke the law, but it is difficult to throw an 81-year-old woman in prison, Det. Delp said, especially when 3 million people in the city want to nominate her for sainthood and a medal.

DEPORT HER TO the U.K. -- WE NEED HER!!!

Looking at the conviction rate percentages, one has to ask what Northern Constabulary are doing right/better that the other forces are not.

Scotland and violence against women is truly appalling. Down here in the deepest south we had a police sergeant, Adam Carruthers (who was promoted to inspector, during the rape investigation against him), who was known as a serial rapist, yet it took years and lots of police obstruction to convict him.

When he was sentenced in 2001 to 12 years
his QC was Paul McBride, (the chap who defends William Begg, the Limbs in the Loch murderer, who raped and beheaded a young Kilmarnock supermarket worker.) appealed the sentence and one year was taken from it.

He'll be out 2012, just in time for the Olympics.

If rape as a crime is to be taken seriously then perhaps what is required are specialist courts for rape cases with a dedicated procurator fiscal who works on the case from the moment the victim reports the crimes. It worked in one borough of New York where the conviction rate rose from 5% to 80% as a direct consequence of a prosecutor who took the time to assess a case fully and thoroughly.

This link will provide further information. If it doesn't work go then put 'rape new york' in the search and that will take you there.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2093053,00.html

In a similar vein - at least in terms of violence predominately against women - a specialist domestic abuse that has covered cases on the southside of glasgow since 2004. The woman is supported throughout and the PF closely involved from the beginning. The court has a conviction rate of 88%.
But then domestic abuse didn't exist before the inception of the court, so its success should be easy enough to dismiss.

The basic point is that if we are serious about addressing the legal process around rape, - as we are becoming about domestic violence - then there is plenty that can be done if we choose to do so. But then we have to choose to do so.

Also does anyone have information on the number of complainants in rape cases who are subsequently charged with perjury, wasting police time etc? This information might be useful rather than the anecedotal, hearsay or perception based contributions we've had so far.

Transparent,

I do so hope you weren't being ironic. I hope you don't think me an apologist for rape just because I've disagreed with you on a few points. But we DO need Aussie granny here. On the bench especially. A few more rapists with their nads removed (better still, their necks stretched) and I'm sure the number of genuine rapes would plummet.

I am a wife, sister, aunt and mother of a young man who is living the nightmare of being accused of rape by a girl who came back to our home, stayed all night and day with my son then left only the next day to say she 'had passed out' and didnt remeber consenting to sex. I have watched the police arrive at my door and take my son away in the middle of the night and seen him changing from a confident boy to a nervous wreck, being diagnosed with severe anxiety. He will have to go to court and defend himself all on her word. All of you, it could happen to your son as is happening to mine.

It's not the granny we need but the same attitude as Oz society i.e. a bit of common bl**dy sense!

As it happens, I thin the vast majority of normal men think rape is an adhorant crime and support women on this one.

Jings, Transparent. Of course, the police will presumably still be prosecuting these scumbags for the rape of her grand daughter. Hopefully.

If you want to discover why Grampian Police have such low conviction cases I suggest you look at the Information Commissioner's decision regarding the Graham Gordon Rape Convictioon Case and also the Scottish Criminal Case Review Decision to refer this case back to the Appeal Court.This man has suffered a Miscarriage of Justice partly due to Grampian Police's failure to carry out the basic procedures necessary to establish the facts surrounding such an allegation of Rape.I pity the person who has genuinely suffered such an act of Rape and makes her complaint to Grampian Police.I think a point worth mentioning is the fact that the accused shouild not be named until after a trial involving rape.Another point worth mentioning is that when a complainer in a Rape case is given large sums of money via the Criminal Injuries and the convicted person wins his appeal against such a conviction I think this money should be repaid --any comments from readers regarding my comments.

#46. They are not just smug most of these morons sit on their brains.

Transparent,

Just had a look for Granny Eva on Google.au. Looks like she may be an urban myth. Shame that.

Westies, there is a fixed award for rape of £7,500 Hardly a large sum of money.

The compensation increases if there is more than one rapist and if the victim suffered other injuries. So the victim would be financially better off if gang raped and half beaten to death...

Homosapien #24.....Get into the 21st century. Your disgraceful outburst of chauvinism and misogyny is a perfect demonstration of why we need feminism and the women's movement. I and every other woman has the right to go out at night, have a few drinks and wear whatever we like without being harrassed and assaulted....
I treat everyone with respect but expect that respect to be reciprocated.

#72...precisely...this young woman stayed the night in your son's bed and cannot remember consenting....where do the clowns in the police and the fiscal's office get their evidnce from?....this would appear to be awaste of police time and public money.....only a doughnut would believe that a woman or man who spent the night in bed with a member of the opposite sex was not consenting to sexual activity....but then it seems that our society has it's fair share of doughnuts....let's hope that there are none on the jury

A story from personal experience: I have had the Police turn up at my door after my partner left our house after an argument, not violent but with both of us shouting at eachother.

This happened several times, the Police told me they were here to see me as i had shouted at my patner and she was scared (not something i am proud of but we both shouted at eachother and I'm sure it happens in many relationships that are coming to an end) I asked the Police if they intended to charge me to which they told me 'no, there has been no crime committed' .Is this accurate, Iam not an expert in law, I then asked them to go and see my partner (after the third or fourth time) and subject her to what i went through as she had shouted at me, this was met with laughter by the Police and I was told to get a grip.

Ok, this is not connected with the rape issue, but it is my only experience of how the Police dealt with an issue of conflict and one word against another in a male/female case. I shall leave others to come to their conclusion of how the Police respond to an abuse claim made by a female against a man.

Onto the issue at hand, I have to agree with the viewpoint that raising the conviction rates cannot go hand in hand with false prosecutions, there needs to be evidence, I cannot support a legal system where convictions are made on one word against another, usually words that are made via a drunken memory.

I have seen no-one say rape is fun, I don't know anyone who believes this. It is not acceptable to call people names because they differ from your viewpoint.

Convictions have to be evidence based. I feel equally as sorry for a woman who goes through the legal system with a genuine case and then see's her attacker walk away free as i do for an innocent man accused falsley. There is no easy answer and an article as above seems more designed to ignite a little bit of gender politics and brings out idiots on both sides of .... both sides of what ?

Rape is a problem which the liberal PC brigade have created over the last 40 years. Fact: having sex has always been the most critical, risky, dangerous decision that a woman has ever made - in all societies. That is why - in every society in the world - sex was hedged about with rituals, negotiations, marriage, family approval, civic licensing, blood tests before marriage, negotiation of dowries, family meetings, chaperones, go-betweens and legal penalties.

Society learned the hard way that the thing that motivates people more than anything else in life - must be guided and controlled by ritual, custom and social sanction. People kill for sex, they murder over jealousy, they murder over false parentage, adultery, unfaitfhulness. It is the emotional high explosive which can either produce long, productive marriages/ relationships - or send people hacking at each other with knives, guns, poison, fists, feet.

Until the 1960s sex in Britain was hedged around with the same social controls as still exist in India or Iran. Sex before marriage was frowned upon; pregnancy before marriage was a disaster; single motherhood was a shame on the entire family; if you messed with a woman's honour her brothers would kick the s*** out of you; abortion was a crime and a personal tragedy. We had something called 'courtship' where people met on a very gentle level, were introduced to families, were invited to tea, 'walked out' together, went to dances, gradually became confident that they cared for each other and eventually married. That is what still goes on in the Asian community and many other societies around the world.

But the liberals threw out the whole lot: sex now cascades from TV, radio and press like a niagara falls; abortion is on-demand to under 16 yr olds and are prescribed the pill without their parents knowledge; 16 year old boys can have homosexual sex with their teachers quite legally. 'Freedom' to binge drink, vomit in the gutter and have sex w

red Mosquito...quite right

Let me clear up the apparant confusion about my postings at 67 & 68.

The story was e-mailed to me last month by a friend. I don't know if it is true or not, but it certainly fits in with my thoughts about this kind of violent crime. They are not my words - simply a copy and paste job.

The difference between rape and seduction is a matter of technique. This leaves a lot of grey area where, absent objective evidence, say of serious force, the judgement of Solomon would be required to work out who is telling porkies.

Very few convictions (or prosecutions for that matter) are likely where the only basis for action is the unsupported word of one person against another.

#83 Tweedmouth...you have summed it up nicely...but you do realise that few people want to hear the truth,or address the true causes of the problem....well done anyway

#12 - The Fly Fifer - "I know lots of girls that have cried rape after leading guys on, cried it, prosecuted it and gained from it."

Whaaat!? What the hell are you talking about? Is your street full of women living in big houses from crying rape? No, really, Fly Fifer, what do you mean? Are you a policeman or lawyer by trade? Is this a new growth industry? Or were you just really tired and emotional when you posted this?

# 24 Homo Sapien: "The false and fabricated statistics they use encourage women to believe that if they make false allegations against men they will win."

Another expert. Statistics, please? Or are your referring to a case that has made the papers within the last couple of years?

I would hope that these attitudes are atypical but other posters on this thread seem to believe we men are in constant danger of false accusations from lying bitches in short skirts. I would be very surprised if there is anyone in a Scottish jail from a false rape accusation.

#61 William: Well, talking of traffic accidents - if you go into the back of someone, it's your fault, not theirs, even if they did brake sharply. I'm going to stick my neck out here and suggest that the burden should be on men to prove their innocence in rape cases. Why not force men to be more careful?

The reality is, very few rapes end up in a conviction and the sentence can be as low as three years - a recent case of a female police officer who was raped at knifepoint in her own home.

#88 - You are clearly an imbecile.

Surely a well placed kick to the balls is the answer in most cases (providing of course that the woman hasn’t made herself vulnerable by drinking herself silly or is shouting rape because she does something she later comes to regret). Maybe, just maybe, there is a low conviction rate for rape because the number of genuine cases is that low!

As often is the case the hysteria surrounding rape both masks the problem and prevents conviction in many cases.

Men fear being falsely accused and, rightly, the courts demand the higest standard of proof to convict. What is your alternative? Hearsay?

Just as a woman's prior promiscuity or state of dress are inadmissable, so too is an uncorroborated "je t'accuse".

In many cases the physical and circumstantial evidence are sufficient to support the accuser and the rapist goes down. Good.

In many other cases the circumstances are confused and the physical evidence proves sex occurred not whether consent was given. Or withheld. In these cases you simply cannot convict. Why; because of the seriousness of the crime and its punishment.

The absolutism of rape is the problem. "Not so" scream the castration brigade, " a woman's right is inviolate" blah blah.

Maybe so. However a scaled offence, just as with homicide, driving, assault etc would go a long way to addressing the current perceived injustice.

We all know or think we do what date rape means. Also stranger rape, rape of a child, rape of one's own child, homosexual rape. What about partner rape? Is two glasses of wine a means to lower inhibition and three a means to rape?

If the law would admit of a scale of offences, from unwarranted assumption of consent through actual rape against clearly expressed non-consent, through the aggravations above, not only would convictions rise, but many would plead to a lesser offence.

If organised feminist rage or misguided apologists continue to demand the severest of penalties for, and an undifferentiated definition of, rape, then conviction rates will, correctly, stay as they are and a lot of injustice against women and a few men will continue.

#12 The Fly Fifer

Aye you are fly alright. Started a big whoosh with your views pal, weel done. As an oficer of the law, I can prove your comments as fact. I see it every weekend. You deserve a medal pal!

#92 Voltaire's - Good points, although feminists are divided over the rape issue. Most agree that rape is about humiliation rather than sex. Andrea Dworkin used to say that all sex is rape, therefore bad. Camille Paglia says that all sex is rape - and ace.

#91 The Second Coming - "Maybe, just maybe, there is a low conviction rate for rape because the number of genuine cases is that low!"

1 genuine victim and 108 lying bitches? Read some more, please.

There is nothing like sex crime to polarise opinion; on one extreme are those who believe that women who are raped variously were "asking for it" because of manner an dress or "deserved it" for other unspecified reasons (not all of this type are, in my experience, men). On the far side are those who believe that all accusations of rape ar true and fit with a perverse stereotype of all men as rapists.
For the rest of us living in the real world the question of rape is a horribly difficult one. Many years ago, a female relative was allegedly raped by her estranged boyfriend. She claimed to police that following his prolonged abusive and violent behaviour towards her she had broken off their relationship. He had been unwilling to accept the end of the relationship and had returned to their shared accommodation and raped her. She reported the rape and was subject to intense aggressive questioning by male police officers and a humiliating physical examination. The police attitude was, we were told, was one of scepticism; they saw my female relative as using the ‘alleged’ rape as an excuse get this man out of her life.
The man concerned was interviewed and released with no charges preferred against him.
Four days afterwards the same man broke into her home and murdered her.
In contrast, my best friend was accused of raping a female colleague, who he had a relationship with despite being married. Despite the woman reporting the alleged rape showing no signs of assault of any kind and having previously falsely accused another man of sexual assault (she was also very drunk and had been smoking cannabis - this is for information as to her mental state and not as an excuse not to believe her). My friend was quickly able to prove that, at the time of the alleged rape, he was in a different city, in fact the police contacted him, via relatives, in Birmingham where he was still on the course he was

...Also, as both were employed in the same office and the employer was scared of an industrial tribunal if the woman was dismissed, she kept her job although she was transferred to another branch.
As I said at the beginning rape is a horribly difficult subject, Whereas I believe there is still a persisting attitude in some areas that blames women for being victims of rape, I also think woman who falsely accuse men of rape do a great disservice to the actual victims of this most horrible of crimes.

Have I missed something here!
The article discusses "rapists" and reported rape - it doesn't state anywhere that females are the only victims. Perhaps half of the 109 were reported by men! believe it or not male rape is not uncommon in society today. The Sexual offences Laws were updated in 2003 to reflect that female -male rape can occur (as well as male-male rape). Perhaps we are being a little narrow looking at this purely as a male on female occurrance?

#94

Is it the case that in all cases of reported rapes if the accused admits to sex and says it was consensual, the accused is charged even with no other evidence, injuries etc ?

re 99
Not always the case - dpends on back ground provided by other witnesses (if any) - detail provided by alleged victim / their state of mind / whether they had been drinking etc - each case is judged on it's own "merits".

#100 Well I am now confused, say someone had admitted to taking a combination of drugs and alcohol in the period prior to alledged rape and admitted taking prescribed drugs after alleged rape and they claim to have passed out and have no memory of consenting to sex - and my son has been charged on that evidence

As I say each case is viewed differently - mostly the Police will charge and let the decision rest with PF or CPS as to whether there is sufficient evidence (and prospect of conviction by jury) to pass the case for trial.

One thing we can't do is change the burden of proof. As I suggested in my original post, it would help in deterrence if sentencing for convictions for rape were stronger and if people making false accusations were also punished strongly. We should also look at other factors such as previous accusations/convictions. If I understand it correctly, such history is inadmissible whereas I would have thought that someone with a 'track record' of being accused/convicted of rape or false allegations of rape would be evidence of culpability.

#13. "There are a lot of innocent males out there who have been tarnished by the rape brush, unfairly and unjustly. "

There are a lot more innocent females out there who have been raped, unfairly and unjustly.

#94 Sure you're an officer of the law. Step down from fantasy land.

A man was arrested last week for rape, no one reported him, His victims did not know they had been raped, He had videoded himself having sex with women who could not say yes or no, So my question how does any one know how many rapist there are, If this happens

Rape is a serious crime but many women do not take it seriously. If we introduced say a minimum 20 year (no parole) sentence for women making false accusations along with automatice chemical castration/sterilisation then women would be forced to take rape so seriously that they would not make false claims.

The measure of a civilised society is our committment to protecting women ( and to a far lesser extent, men) from sick and evil males, not only from strangers or ' one night stands' but from within the family circle. We need to have a consistent approach from a dedicated and skilled team of law enforcers ands support staff. to enable society to get a grip with this serious problem. Rape against the individual is probably much higher than reported because this issue is not as seen by the home office as high a priority as say terrorism or even catching speeding motorists.

I am absolutely shocked by some of the comments I have read on this board. Surely instead of all this ridiculous mud-slinging between the sexes, we should all be united in agreeing that men who genuinely rape must be convicted and given strong punishments, but also that the same must apply to women (or men for that matter) who falsely cry rape in order to discourage this from happening. I also believe that men accused of rape should be granted anonymity until proven guilty.

What I cannot accept is any suggestion that women are in some way "asking for it" by the way they dress, or by being drunk. So women should be afraid to go out and have a drink with their pals just in case some moron thinks it's OK to prey on someone whose defences are lowered? This kind of attitude belongs in the dark ages and MUST be addressed. There should be absolutely NO excuses for rape, and no excuses for false accusations either.

Some people on this board who are flinging insulting generalisations at women need to ask themselves how differently they might feel if it was their wife or daughter who had been raped.

#107 IWright: "Rape is a serious crime but many women do not take it seriously." Statistics, please.

#105 northeast: Well said.

#93 Haggis ...: This is not an argument.

Thanks #93, but you're completely wrong, on all points. Married 15 years with 4 kids (wonderful boys) and plenty decent & fantastic male friends.

So, getting back to the point -

Men who rape (remember, men can be victims as well) should be severly penalised for it.

Women wrongly accused should also be severely penalised. (Maybe the police need to be trained in psychological profiling?)

However, women should not be afraid to come forward and report crimes against them for fear of vilification by misoginists like you.

#107, I sympathise with your way of thinking but somehow the Human Rights lobby would never allow this - what would the consequence be if it were later proven that those wrongly accused of wrongly accusing were, in fact, innocent?

Anna, you are right on all accounts.

The problem these days is probably being made worse by the alcohol binging culture of both sexes.

#93 Haggis: Hopefully your post will be disappearing soon, but I just wanted you to know that it was me who reported it, not Disclosure. In case you get the urge to go out and dismember some prostitutes or something in a rage.

#107: "If we introduced say a minimum 20 year (no parole) sentence for women making false accusations along with automatice chemical castration/sterilisation ..."

According to today's Scotsman, you only get 7 years for raping a complete stranger. You'd be out in 3 1/2 years, as far as I know.

It is a sad fact that most rapes are not reported. A boyfriend gets too aggressive, and a girl submits from fear - that's NOT consensual. A man (friend or no) drops a wee bitty "ecstasy" in her drink and she's so blitzed she wouldn't know if World War III happened over night - It's STILL rape, even if she doesn't know it happened.

Men are far too violent with women. Women are far too afraid of men to press for charges often enough. And fear of being disbelieved, and laughed at, stops many women from speaking out.

That's wrong. There's a lot of things done in our societies that shouldn't be done. Too few people bother with things like "ethics" and "morals", they're "too old fashioned".

Weel, gie me the "old fashioned" ways, whether they ever really existed or no'. We're supposed to be IMPROVING as a society, no' goin' th'other way!

It´s strange, but seems rape is seen as a normal thing in Scotland, at least it´s what the comments here show...

I agree wth someone who said "Most normal sane women do not really want to be raped in the first place. Moreover they certainly do not want to face having their sexual histories, lifestyle choices, colour & style of underwear etc etc brought up in front of the police, let alone in court, or to be judged on the basis of this 'evidence' of their guilt or innocence in the kangaroo court of the British press.".... This is true, only a women who had be caught in this problem or know someone who was raped knows how hard is to talk to someone about this...

I dont understand the comment of the men here... I cannot believe the great part of Scottih women are liars... And just wanna destroy the life of a innocent man...

But, it´s the same in any part of world when a women is rapped... It´s always their guilt... Or is a lie...

I am sure the Scottish women only wanna justice.

I see some-one is using a name very similar to mine I will not post under this name again,

As for the rape issue, every and I mean every effort should be put into catching , convicting and dealing in the strongest way with rapists, they destroy lives, the incindent lives with the woman fore-ever, it cannot be taken back, women suffer enough in this world without men being given so much leeway.

# 116 'women suffer enough in the world without men being given so much leeway' what a load of bloody nonsense, someone's sex does not give right to a Mary Magdelene complex - how the hell do women suffer any more than men - feminist claptrap - and I am a woman

There views of Fly Fifer are not the same as my views please when replying to the Fly Fifer posts do not use my name which is The Fly Fifer

I read a few years ago about a women who was HIV positive but got raped and said that it just served the bloke right! Perhaps women should shout that they have some kind of clap if there really are that many randy wee sods out there who just want to get their end away at any cost (although, as I said before, I think that there is a feminist conspirecy to treat every dodgy accusation of rape as the gospel truth!)

#118 The Fly Fifer: Maybe he's stolen your identity because he's been banned from using the internet and he doesn't want his Mum to find out?

#117 / 119 - Perhaps one of the militant anti-feminists on this thread would like to let us know which one they are talking about. Germaine Greer? Mae West?

Shanny, take a wee trip to Saudi, ............. take a wee trip to where women are still circumcised in the african continent, speak with some of the arranged pre-teen asian marriages, yes men suffer as well but give me a break ............... and if you took time to read my post NOWHERE odes it say that women suffer any more than men. I sadi they suffer enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you cannot even take the time to read stuff before you write is anger please do not bother.

#117, if you are to pick this point up then yes, quite correctly, most violent crimes are committed by men against men.

All men are not violent rapists, but those who committ this crime are male. The easiest and most vulnerable victim is female. Fact.

# 121 The subject matter is rape conviction rates in Scotland not circumcision in Afirca or pre arranged asian marriages..

123 oh I am so sorry Shanny you are correct that is the subject.

As you are being precise do you think rape is a problem in Scotland ? what woould you do if it was your daughter that was a victim, you believed her and the courts sadi nope ......... no case to answer ?

What would you do if you came face to face with the accused after he was aquited (if the case even got as far as the courts) ?

Shanny, in Scotland where there is evidence of female circumcision and where some young women are sent back to Asia for pre-arranged marraiges do you think this reduces the incidence of rape in those communities?

#114 and others - there's no hope for you, is there? You fear and distrust women and that is such a shame.

#83 Tweedmouth - once again, a superbly literate post. I know, we liberals threw out the baby with the bathwater. I wouldn't go back to the 1950s/early 60s, but sometime in between might be nice. Personally, I blame
a) alcopops - before them, alcohol was too disgusting for most kids to drink in enough quantity to throw up
b) childrens' tv presenters behaving badly, which has encouraged generations of kids to think it is OK to SHOUT and JUMP UP AND DOWN frenetically even when grown up (step forward Timmy Mallett) Oh, and do I see a Tiswas anniversar show coming up?
c) Mrs Thatcher and her "greed is good" philosophy. The Eighties was the decade of excess, when people stopped saving for future gratification and started wanting it all, now. A de-evolutionary step.
Oh well, time to go and do something useful...

Sorry, got carried away there. Back to the point - rape. Rape is sex when one party doesn't want to have sex. Whether that person is your spouse, your girlfriend, or just a friend, if they don't want to do it, then don't do it. If you're not sure, ask. How easy is that?

#125 My last response to you. The subject matter is about Rape conviction rates in Scotland, not female circumcision in Scotland or Africa or pre arranged marriages and whether this reduces rape in those communities, for which I kbow so little that I am not in a position to offer an opinion.

yes Jennie WELL SAID teach children NO MEANS NO

Shanny you are indeed correct again, my apologies,

In your opinion Shanny if your daughter told you she was raped in Scotland and named her attacker and the judicial system in Scotland failed to produce a conviction against the rapist and you then met him subsequently to his aquital what would you feel like doing now that your daughter has been technically labelled a liar ?

Both Tweedmouth and Jennie are right in one respect and what I was also saying earlier. It's easy to condemn some 19th century aristo exercising his droit de seigneur over the milkmaid or a bloke in a mask jumping out of a bush. It's not so easy to fairly assess a situation where neither party can swear in all honesty as to what happened the night before. The grotesque abuse of alcohol in today's society plays such a huge part. Men and women need to address their own behaviour and accept that getting stocious all the time can have some shocking consequences.

#130 How would you feel if your son was falsely accused of rape after having consensual sex with a female who had slept in his bed all day who had consumed various drugs prior to and after leaving your son ( by their own admission), only left the house after you said she had to go as it was getting late, went home and the next day decided cant remember consenting to sex so cries rape. How would you feel to see a confident boy reduced to being diagnosed with severe anxiety, unable to sleep and when does get to sleep jumps in terror when anyone goes in his room? I am that mother.

If my daughter, and I have one, was raped, I would hope for justice, just as I do for my son.

Sorry Shanny,

But if your son is leading a lifestyle where either he or the girl he slept with have consumed so much alcohol or taken so many drugs, either before, during or after, that either party can't remember what's happened, then he must accept some responsibilty for the situation he finds himself.

#130 - TFF: The article about Lindsay Armstrong, the 16-year-old who committed suicide after having to face her attacker in court is pretty stomach-turning.

#133 Draco: True, alcohol blurs the boundaries too easily. I'm pretty sure that some rapists count on ambiguity. In fact even 'rapist' is a bit of a cumbersome term - some men are sexual predators, and this goes from spiking drinks to masked attackers. From what I've read about serial killers, most of them progressed from rape.

#133 where did I say he cant remeber what happened - he can - she cant, alledgedly. How can he accept responsibility for drugs she took prior to meeting him and after he she left his company. Granted his choice of woman on this occassion was crap.

That's just what I'm saying. He obviously didn't know the type of woman he was dealing with, yet he thought it was OK to sleep with her. I'm not condemning him for that, it's his choice of lifestyle. But he should accept at least some responsibility. I'm sure in future he'll be a bit more circumspect in his choice of 'partner' and the circumstances in which he jumps into bed with them. Hope the truth will out though. Good luck to him.

# 136 Thank you

The problem with the way we try rape cases now is that evidence will usually only demonstrate that sex has taken place, it cannot show whether it was consensual.

Two people can have a different perception of the same event – including whether or not sex was consensual.

To be frank I have my own opinion about anyone who would have sex with someone who was completely out of it either on drink or drugs.

Is it rape? I really don't know. But it is certainly wrong.

Would I send them to jail? No. Jails are already filled to overflowing with people who don’t belong there and I see no point in adding to that.

As with many things, education is the key. Consent must be sought and not just assumed. Both parties should be clear about that.

A concerted effort to tackle our dreadful binge drinking and drug culture must also happen no matter how many people scream ‘nanny state’.

#52 Disclosure
Your rant doesn't address what I actually wrote.
With regard to your 'It is proven' could you quote chapter and verse regarding where it is proven.
Most men do realise that no does mean no. Many of the problems arise when an 'ok then' is revised next day to a definite 'no'.
If you wish to refer to me, then address what I actually said.
Toom

Well according to the article he has a one in 109 chance of not walking free, I am sure with a good lawyer she will be made out to be a junkie, a user a low life.

And yes next time he may make better life choices after he has been tested for whatever it is that one can get these days from sleeping with dubious partners.

22 you should remember that men can be raped too. It's not just women who are victims.

34 Scotland is recognised as being one of the most violent countries in the world. So violence is endemoc in Scottish culture.

Of course men are victims of violence too - in fact men are more likely to be the victims of non-sexual assault.

The problem is that many men don't see anything wrong with violence. They may not be violent themselves but they don't actually think it is wrong.

81 'Wisdom' have you come here in Dr Who's Tardis from the 19th century by any chance? Because you sound like it! Dear me.

i fully agree that men should be seen as innocent until proven guilty. i know there are some individuals out there who cry rape for whatever reason, and this can destroy the lives of the accused.
i am also very much aware that there are a lot of people out there getting away with rape. and they will most likely strike again. so lets not start throwing comments around loosely about women drinking too much and getting themselves into the "wrong" situations.
i try very hard to see the arguements from all points of view, but as a person who was too afraid, ashamed and traumatised to report a rape, i find this can be difficult. there is a certain stigma surrounding rape and there is a definate lack of justice.
I was attacked in my home, by a friend when i was bone sober. i felt threatened by the person who attacked me and i had absolutely no faith in the police protecting me from him or his family.
as a result the attack, which i now know was not an isolated incident, went unreported.
i feared for my safety. i was terrified i would be branded a liar. so many men and women are going through that trauma, some of them are alone in it. and the system is failing them.

83 you must have been in the same Tardis.

Do you seriously imagine that no woman was raped before the 1960s? Get real.

88 Dear God do you really believe that?

Women who go out on the town are asking for trouble? Does that mean that it is OK to rape them?

You know, I came on this thread not feeling like a hardened feminist at all but I am rapidly turning into one!

Unbelievable.

#143 Miss H.....If today's generation of young women were to emulate some of the habits of their great grannies and used the commonsense that seems to be in short supply then there would be fewer cases of rape in society today....to hear a young woman say that she was drunk and can't remember whether she consented or not is laughable...we are all ultimately responsibile for our own personal behaviour and where there are cases where women have been genuinely raped THE LADDISH SISTERHOOD do them a great disservice .

Miss H keep going I suooprt your views on 81 and 88

#131 Draco - elsewhere (BBC website) I see a report that liver disease in Scotland has doubled in most areas, trebled in some others, and quadrupled in a few. Time to stop getting stocious, indeed

Jennie, yep just more proof (if Any were needed) that (some) Scots are on skid row big time, trouble is it is not just the winos it is proffesional people as well, more money is spent by working, well educated (sic) well off people on cocaine in Scotland that by the down and out junkies.

truly,truly, some of the most depressing posts i have ever read.

147 I note that you do not say that today's young men should emulate the behaviour of their great grandas and not take advantage of women who have had a bit too much to drink.

So it's pretty clear what you think. Women are to blame for rape. Men aren't.

Right, now where's my old copy of the Female Eunuch, time to dust it down I think .....

This is not or should not be a battle of the sexes its a battle for justice for genuine victims. Just as there are men who rape there are females who falsely accuse, and that can not be ignored either.

#152 Miss H
Technically a woman should be able to walk down the street naked without having some bloke leap on her. If she did choose to do such a thing (a bit cold in this country, mind you) who would be blamed do you think? The woman for being so brazen or the man who couldn't control himself?
#153 Shanny
You're right - though we have to be careful not to confuse women who have been raped but can't prove it due to lack of corroboration with those who make false accusations against men.

The only reason that miniaturised solid state recording devices are not available to women is because the electronics industry is male dominated. If such a device could be made and concealed then women would have a chance to discretely record their refusal to respond to sexual advances, together with the date and time. Solid state recorders should also be built into mobile phones, together with the usual SOS facilities. Perhaps recordings should be labelled with the location, time and date as downloaded from the mobile phone network, making fraud extremely difficult? If the male desists, no harm done. If rape occurs, the woman has a permanent record of her refusal that will be accepted in court.
Apart from this, the problem of anti-rape devices needs to be solved properly. There are such devices, but they inflict such pain that a rapist is likely to go berserk and assault or kill his victim. What is required is a chemical that can be disguised as a perfume or deodorant, or perhaps retained in the vagina as a gel, and which rapidly dilates the blood vessels that usually constrict, so causing the penis to become flaccid. Maybe even a harmless chemical that has a nauseating but temporary smell would be enough to stop a man proceeding with rape.

As an outsider, I am not intending to express an opinion, but I'd like to inject this observation. A 1-4% conviction rate is clearly extreme. Although false accusations and false prosecutions do occur with all crimes, it seems unlikely that anyone would bother with a false accusation of rape given the low probability of conviction. It seem even less likely that a prosecutor would ever go into court unless the case and the evidence was exceptionally strong.

152 I think the man would be blamed - provided the woman was sober. If she was not, and if it was late at night, I think some of these guys would say she was 'asking for it'.

I take the point other posters have made that binge drinking contributes to many cases, and I agree with it. Women who get drunk and incapable do put themselves at greater risk.

However if I came across a drunk and incapable guy and I stole his wallet and house keys and helped myself to his stuff I don't think I could excuse it on the grounds that well, he didn't actually say I couldn't do that.

It is essentially about decent behaviour. You don't take advantage of someone just because you can.

That is something that all of the men that I know would agree with. The attitudes displayed by some of the men posting on this forum are certainly not typical of the men of my family or my acquaintance. I would hope that they are just trying to be controversial and don't really mean it.

Miss H I hope so as well, No means NO!!!!!! your wallet thingy was a great example

I hope the Scotts can come up with an inovative and viable solution to this problem. We need a solution we can all follow after. It's one problem that crosses all borders be it local or internationaly. Here in the U.S our mindless leaders have only succeeded in making things so complicated it would be laughable if it were not so serious. I have 2 daughters ages 17 & 19. I feel very helpless some times when it comes to their safety. I have drilled it into their heads that they MUST give much FORETHOUGHT to their actions. What to be aware of what to look out for and what conditions and situations to avoid. All I can do is to educate to the best of my ability. I have not been able to find any excuse or reason that over rides self control. The CRIME of rape is one of the most if not the most distructive acts that can be commited. As far as the family unit is concerned,,INFIDELITY is a close secound. WORK HARD Scotland. I hope you find the answer. And if and when you do,,,,,,LET THE WORLD KNOW

Lie Detectors?

Lie Detectors!

Dosn't anyone on this thread understand what rape MEANS to someone who suffers it? Subjecting them to a Lie Detector test would be cruel beyond words.

and to all those saying (in one guise or the other) 'women ask for it': i hope you never suffer a sexual assault because it's something you never recover from.

Rape is a word that has found a home in one definition, i.e. carnal knowledge of a woman without her consent. As long as we accept that single meaning in comon usage, women will continue to be exploited by the both the perpetrator and the shelter of the legal system to whom they turn.
The act of rape in the context of plunder and abuse is a violent crime and should be dealt with as such. It is no less a crime than attempted murder, assault with intent to kill or maim, charges that can carrry penalties up to and includung life imprisonment and the judicatory must interpret the law to recognise the crime.
Clergy who have used their authority to assault and violate children, parents who abuse their offspring, convicts who impose their will on other prisoners and men who stake and spear women in any attempt at submission are violent criminals and must be charged and sentenced in that category.
Rape is a criminal act carried out by violent cowards and whether they be peasants or kings expect the heavy hand of the law to come down on them.

#152..Miss H...society today is far LESS violent than in bygone ages,including the 19 century.Women are probably safer on the streets than ever before.Women in ages gone were aware of the dangers that lurked in the world at large and if they were sensible did not deliberately expose themselves to these dangers....parents of young children may believe that their children have THE RIGHT to roam anywhere at will but would be very foolish and naive to put this into practice...women have been given UNREALISTIC expectations and would do well,in their own interests,do practice caution and use what common sense they may have....

#164...of ourse rape is a crime,that is not in question,BUT,accusing a man of rape does not prove guilt...guilt must be proven beyond any reasonable doubt and, as in other cases of violent crime, supported by independent witness where possible.Taking one person's word against another is not good enough to PROVE guilt.

#162 Virgil..
If all people thought like you this would be a much better world. As a woman I applaud your remarks and pray that some of the so called lawmakers are tuned into your post.
Thank you.

This is a sad story.

I have to pinch myself to believe some of the posts that have appeared here. Are all of the men who pontificate about "taking only the woman's word for it" and other attempts at waxing legal jargon, content to wear small shirts with their bums showing, like children escaping the nursery?
Thank gawd for Virgil, post162, at least some inteelligent comment is being fired from this side of the world.
Rape is a violent crime carried out by a violent person and has it condoned by the fact that women in many cases are afraid to report it because of the macho-male mentality that is evident among many silly little men who still believe that they had it coming. Grow up for gawd's sake.

The crux of this story noted the variation in conviction rates for rape across the country and highlighted the differences in handling these cases between police forces. My main criticism would be that I did not find it immediately obvious from the report if there was a clear link between the two. It seems a reasonable enough point to make in a national newspaper however. The mud-slinging which ensued initially seems rather beside the point.

Thank goodness some contributions eventually address the difficulty of proving guilt or innocence in these cases. This key point lies at the heart of ensuring perpetrators are strongly dealt with and false accusers similarly.

In my own opinion the statistics on number of convictions suggest that some rapists are going unpunished inorder to avoid convicting an innocent accused, as the law intends. I fervently hope that a way can be found to increase the number of guilty perpetrators convicted without compromising this intent. This will only come about through rational discussion of the topic.

In the mean time both men and women should consider the dangers to which they expose themselves by their behaviour. Men who fear accusation from a drunk stranger who wakes up next to them have it in their own hands not to put themselves in that situation.

#169 above...should read intelligent comment....
Glad I misspelled, it gave me a chance to write "intelligent comment" again.

Sorry, I misspelled intelligent on above post #169..
glad I did though..gives me another chance to write "intelligent comment"...

#170..Washington Irving..it is difficult to suck and blow at the same time! There is only one side to violence..and that is violence.
The comments that have been made to deal with the crime of rape are exposing the inequity in a flawed justice system, not in the assumption that if the dog hadn't stopped to pee it would have caught the rabbit.
#162 Virgil..are you the only one here who really get it? Assuming that you are a male..you have a brain in your head. I'll fire a rocket..keep the logic flowing.

#173 Astarte. I'm afraid I don't understand your criticism. At no point did I defend any 'side' of violence. If by 'inequity (inequality?) in a flawed justice system' you mean the system favours the accused resulting in too low a conviction rate then I agree, that is exactly what I would infer from the statistics. As earlier posters have commented the law generally takes the standpoint it is better several guilty go free than one innocent is wrongly punished. Personally I don't think that the extent to which this appears to currently be the case for the crime of rape is at all acceptable.

I agree entirely with Virgil's comment right until the end. The heavy hand of the law is not coming down on the perpetrators. Finding a way to ensure it does descend on the guilty is imperative. I only observed that many of the comments were not helpful in finding a way to do so.

Greatly obliged to "Tweedmouth" (83). The situation described is so disturbing it's hard for me to get my head around it. How widespread is this? Because if it is anything like mainstream, you are describing a clinically depressed society in terminal meltdown. Ask yourself why people are drinking to excess. This is the type of culture you should run, rather walk away from. Rape seems to be only one component, albeit a major one. Anyone that accepts the values described as normal, clearly has very limited options. And the government’s response to make alcoholic beverage consumption equal coercion equal rape is to say the least misguided. It’s going to convict the wrong people in the name of political correctness.

For any crime, the basis of both the British and Canadian justice system is that it is better that a guilty man go free than an innocent man suffer - and this is as it should be . The problem with the lack of convictions in UK is the basic premise that rape is a crime of sex, that is has anything to do with what a person is wearing or doing, that it is some silly girl changing her mind hte next morning... that IS NOT rape. Rape is control. Rape is brutalization. Rape is power. Rape is rage. Until 15 years olds are not required to hold up their knickers in the courtroom (considered an enticement to the animal that raped the poor child) until no one has to justify their previous relationships or wardrobe, the UK will continue to have a shocking and shameful conviction rate for rape. I've always considered Canada's 40% bad, the UK's is horrifying.

JG @154

There is a law against such a proposal and for good reason, no? Fairly rediculous example me thinks.

Miss H

Are you comparing petty theft to rape? Silly Billy.

5 William, what a dreadful attitude you have towards women and the abuse of them by men - I presume that you don't know anyone who has been raped, I wonder how you'd feel if your wife or your daughter were raped? Or your son? Or you?

Where there is evidence beyond all reasonable doubt that a suspect is guilty of rape then fine guilty is the logical verdict.BUT,the word alone of the possible victim,or even dna evidence that intercourse did place is not proof of rape....the burden of proof must always lie with the prosecution...no one,man or woman,accused of any crime should ever have to prove their innocence,and that goes in cases of rape as well as assault,actual bodily harm,murder and on and on.....

177

Yes I am.

I am suggesting that if a person makes themselves vulnerable to a particular crime – whether that be rape, theft, fraud, assault or any other crime whether serious or petty – that does not make them responsible for the crime.

The person who commits the crime is responsible.

I think that is fairly clear and would be accepted by all reasonable people.

Has anyone stopped to consider that the reason convictions are so low is that those charged may just be innocent?
I personally know of three men who have been convicted over the years for rape who were innocent. Only one now remains in prison and has recently been refused parole as he will not admit guilt.

One of the other two was actually in a Police cell at the time the alleged rape took place. He was charged with being drunk and disorderly then released only to be re arrested some time later and charged with rape. He was sentenced to 7 years imprisonment.

Those who claim these figures are a disgrace should stop and think. On two of the above mentioned instances men were sent to Prison after a scorned woman shouted rape. There is little or nothing such convicted men can do. In the case of the man who was in the police cell when the rape took place he served his time despite having the charge book from the police station which proved he was innocent.

The Courts do get things wrong and it works both ways.

Well in that case Miss H, if I were really drunk, out my skull and handed you, a stranger, the keys to my house, because I'm drunk and out my skull and you take the liberty of helping yourself to my possessions - who is culpable? You for committing the crime or me for giving you my keys under the influence or both?

Likewise, you are a drunk out her skull woman, I am a drunk out my skull man and you take me home or vice versa and some sort of sexual exploit takes place. As a sober person ,you'd never dream of doing the above, but as a drunk person you're not sure what ou are doing. You cry rape. Who is at fault? Me for having what I thought was consensual sex with you even though you were out your skull or you for being out your skull and inviting me home? Or both?

176. Catharine:

Thankyou for making this point: rape has nothing to do with sex but is about control and dominance. It's a crime of violance NOT a sexual crime.

May I, at this point, point out that the in England and Wales the nature of Rape as a criminal offence was radicaly rethought. Under the (I think) 2003 legislation rape was redifineed as a violent offence rather than a sexual one. This legislation also criminalised arias of offence not included in out frankly backwards undeerstanding of the offence in Scotland. Included where rape of a Transexual (male or female), 'date' rape, rape without violence, male rape, women commiting rape and so forth.

Is it any suprise that when we refuse to introduce similer legislation in Scotland we end up with lower conviction rates?

183. AngusMor:

So if you're raped when drunk you're guilty of the rape because you had a drink? Are we realy saying that men (all the discusion has been of Men raping women so for the moment I'll stick to this definition) are so unable to control their impulses to dominance and control that if they see a drunk woman they just have to have their jollies (so to speak) weither she wants it or not?

The afore mentioned sexual offences act in England and Wales states that without express permition any sexual act can be understood to be rape i.e. if she's out of it and you enter her then you've raped her. As long as we disalow this defonition we make women objects of Mlae violance.

181. steve52:

If a man realy was in custody when he was aleged to have commited a rape then it should have been obvious that he was inocent and any term of imprisoment due to a conviction from this should have been seen as an absolute travisty of justice.

To all the 'short skirted women deserve to be raped' people:

So if you take a call on your mobile, carry a laptop for work or have a MP3 player it's your own falt if someone beats you to the ground and takes it?