#50 Disambiguation: 'only rational thing to do is attack Iran and put an end to these terrorist groups' - I don't think this will work. Iran contains 100 million people and is three times the size of Afghanistan. The west can only police so many failed states.

Joe Sacco's book 'Palestine' is well worth reading and explains why the place is such a mess while taking a fairly balanced view. The trouble is, desperate people often elect rotten leaders and support terrorist groups.

#54 57Nomad: Well, this might be true but if the Palestinians had a decent economy they would probably have a well-cultivated land too. Israel has to be blamed to some extent for keeping Palestine dirt-poor.

JEWISH REFUGEES MUST HAVE JUSTICE!

Around 1948, Arabs violently ethnically cleansed
one million Jews from Arab countries.
Racist, religious supremacist Arab
governments confiscated the land, schools, homes, synagogues, businesses, farms, hospitals and bank accounts of the Jews.

Most Jewish refugees fled to Israel where the
religious terror war against Jews never stops.
It is unacceptable to Muslims for Jews to have
self-rule. A bloody jihad that spans the globe.

The Jewish refugees and their descendants - half of Israel's Jewish population must be compensated in land and finances.

To #35 up there. The reason that Israel is green and developed, while "poor" Palestinians live in dirt and sand? The Israelis are civilized and have changed their environment while the "poor" Palestinians go around killing each other and Jews and probably have never even built a road since they re-occupied Gaza.

Let Israel go. Bomb this "victim" people (victims of themselves!). Also a hit on Iran's nukes ought to help.

#64 Linda Rivera:

"The Jewish refugees and their descendants - half of Israel's Jewish population must be compensated in land and finances."

Where, how and by whom?

What is your solution to the current situation?

Ruwan, please sit down and read your own holy book. The US is not responsible for Muslim troubles.

#25 Ruwan,
What is the religion of Fatah?
Why are they and Hammas hurting each other? I thought the umma were to stick together. We may not belong in your fight, but you would be more respected if you didn't kill everyone off, both yourselves and us. And we should stay out of your fights. Leave the Jews alone, and the Hindus, Christians, etc.
Everyone should live and let live, as God intended. Don't try to take us over and rule the world. We should also leave you alone. If it were up to the average citizen, we could probably get along.
The Crusades were long ago, and should remain in the past. What I have been taught as a Christian is not what I see as the general view of us. It is a shame that propaganda works so well. Satan is having a field day getting us to fight/hate each other and kill each other off.

#60. Stan the Bam - and equally on cue Stan the troll pops up for his post-Sabbat slur. Brings nothing to the debate just insults - #36 was a "racist rant" only in the fevered imagination of a fruit loop. If you have nothing to contribute GTF.

Oops! I meant #52. Sorry.

#66. thatscottishwoman 2 - My thoughts exactly - who is to foot the bill for this "justice" that Jewish "refugees" must have? If you follow the link at my post #36 you will see that this Linda Rivera (coincidently also the name of a 9/11 victim) is on some sort of crusade.

Much as I hate to say this, Linda Rivera of the USA is correct - there is no historical nation of Palestine. Palestinian "refugees" were convinced by their own imams and political leaders in 1948 that it would only be a matter of days before the jews were driven out of the area or wiped out, so they fled to neighbouring countries to await the annihalation of their fellow Semites. (Let us not forget that historically these two people are in fact racially the same)
After the 1948 War and the Jordanian takeover of the West bank, the Palestinian Arabs never attempted to establish an independent state in the territory alloted to them by the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan. They cooperated with its unilateral annexation by Jordan, Jordanian East Jerusalem was not made the capital, even for its Palestinian residents, in 19 years of Jordanian rule. The capital remained in Amman. The whole "Palestine for Palestinians" and "Jerusalem is our holiest site" is a ruse created by the likes of Arafat and other terrorists.
#63 Why should Isreal be be blamed for inventing the technology that it has? For centuries under arab rule, that same territory was uncultivated. Isrealis simply put the time, thought and energy into creating the viable land that now exists.

#55 Palestine was created by Hadrian. Take a dig into history, long before 1922. He wanted to wipe out any existence of the name Israel.

#58 Correct! S'derot IS part of Israel.

#35 (up there) Israeli's work hard to develop the land. Perhaps the curse is for cursing Israel.

#68 The religion of Fatah is the same of Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda. Make no mistake about that.
Hatred and greed and manipulation among themselves is the reality.
Hamas IS the grim reality!

#52, if Al-Qaeda is is a curse on Muslims, why join forces with a curse????

#71 James Donald:

Thanks for the link which I have just read. I await her response to my questions.

Much of the pot stirring that occurs when the Israeli/Palestinian conflict reaches yet another tipping point is done in the name of religion. Until this is exposed for what it is there will be no peace.

54. 57Nomad

"What is now Israel was also dry, impoverished, and in ruins, prior to 1948. The difference is that the Israelis worked real hard and transformed their part of the neighborhood into the green, prosperous, nicely developed little country you see today."

So that makes it OK then? They take somebody else's land, kick out, kill or subject the owners and make it nice?

Of course, that's what the USA did, so you're bound to approve.

#73 Dickie Bird and others:

The history of the term Palestine has been debated time and time again on these fora. The wiki link offers an interesting take:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

Whatever the take on Palestine and whatever an individual's view on the creation of the state of Israel they both exist today. Both the countries and their people are here to stay. If there is to be peace in the region the international community has to work with both countries to enable them to establish an agreement that can give peace and security to all.

72. Catharine, Winnipeg, Canada

"there is no historical nation of Palestine"

So what was the place called that Britain ran for some thirty years?

"Let us not forget that historically these two people are in fact racially the same."

The Palestinian Arabs and Jews are racially the same. The Zionist invaders which came in from the early part of the nineteenth century were mainly Caucasian, and they increased a few thousand semitic Jews to a few million of mixed race.

"the Palestinian Arabs never attempted to establish an independent state in the territory alloted to them by the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan"

Because the 1947 Plan was unfair and unacceptable to the Arabs.

#74. thatscottishwoman 2 - Think you'll have a long wait. She doesn't strike me as the "let's sit down and discuss it" type.

#78 James Donald:

In that case I will pose my follow up question:

On the issue of land compensation, if Linda is talking of large numbers of people, this would inevitably result in a "clearance" from lands currently owned or occupied by others. Where, Linda, would the present owners or occupiers go?

To that scotttish woman: the solution is that the arab countries who have been funding terrorism for the last 60+ years absorb their arab brethren into the massive lands they already control as a result of the violent muslim conquests of the past. Israel had to take in the jewish refugees of Europe and the jewish refugees of the arab countries. What was the solution to all the refugees of WWII in Europe. Most did not return to the land they had to flee. Why are these arab refugees different from all others of the past and maintained in camps funded by the UN and arab countries rather than absorbed as all others in the past including the jews. It has been in the interest of these terrorist funders to maintain the Israeli red herring so as to deflect their masses from their lack of development. It is not for the EUropean serial jew killers to decide whether jews have a right to live in the lands of their forefathers after being slaughtered serially by the europeans for 2000 years. It is also not for the descendants of the receivors of stolen property, acquired as a result of the European(roman) dispersion of the jews from their land of Israel and the muslim conquests, to decide whether jews have a right ot the lands of Israel.

As Europe and the arabs have already shown, the jews neither belong in serial killing lands of Europe nor in the dhimmitude of muslim countries. Now that many have returned to Israel the euros and arabs are complaining about that too. Is there no end to the hypocrisy of those who hijacked a culture and a people and then used that culture as the foundation stone of their religions and then embarked on a program to obliterate those facts. I speak of both european Christianity and Arab Islam.

#80 Brenrod:

Please clarify; are you saying that the State of Israel should encompass Gaza and the West Bank and that the Palestinian people should be cleared from that state?

Israel is, and always be the strongest army in the world.
Having lived there with both Israelis and Palestinians, not hard to work out.
Go to Gaza, go to the Negev, go to the Jordanian border.
The only places that are lush and green, are the ones under Israeli guidance.
I wish everyone peace.
Don't judge the country if you haven't been there.

#37
During World War I, the Britain were suffering a great deal of lost and could not produce gunpowder fast enough to over take the Germans. They asked an inventor Who was Jewish and after the success of the war they ask him what he wanted. He said he want a place that the Jewish people to call home and the sign the Agreement.

Jump to 1947-1948, Britain was the force on the land not the Arab Palestinians. Isreal force Britain off the land and as prophetic in the Bible, Israel will "become a nation in one day" and "formed by many nations" (UN). The Arab call all Arab Palestinians to leave the land so they can destroy Israel without harming the Arab Palestinians. then Arab Lost the war and wanted nothing to do with the massive refugees and ordered Isreal to take them back. And at the same time, the Arabs started blaming Isreal for the so called apartheid policies that Arab themselves Created. So much for your typical loving neighbors that Arab didnt want to take care of their own people - sad

Jump to the Six Day War, Quite bit of land was achieved by Israel, from Jordan, Egypt, and Syria. Jordan and Egypt got their land back and there was no more major problem in fact they were key players for the Palestinians/Israel Peace treaties. Syria is now gearing up for war again and you want to know why after 2 other attempt of a attack from Golan Height, Israel is leary in giving the land back. Look at the Palestinians today, after each withdrawal by Israel, the Palestinians came in destroy everything that was left behind. Even the Jewish temples then they continued to fire rockets into Israel. Back in 1967, Israel had their Flag flying over the Dome but did they destroy it, Nope they gave back to the Arabs.

Since Israel became a nation, they turned a dry desert to a growing agricultural land. Now look at what the Palestinians leaders did, nothing but destructions. They wont even let their own people prosper because they are

As a former member of the British Army in Palestine any person who believes in democracy and human rights should support Hamas and Hizbollah.

bill1, the Arabs decided rather than accept their state they would annihilate Israel..not because it was unfair..They got 80% and Israel got 20%..so who was benefiting the most?,
but because they did not want a non-muslim country, in their midst.
Israel offered to return this land that it acquired while defending itself against Arab Aggression in exchange for a formal peace. It made this offer dueing the Rhodes Armistice talks and the Lausanne Conference in 1949. The Arab rulers refused the land because they wanted to maintain a state of war in order to destroy the Jewish state.

#83. Gina (ex Yorkie), NZ - "Don't judge the country if you haven't been there" - I haven't been to North Korea but I have heard enough about it to know I don't fancy it.
"Israel is, and always be the strongest army in the world" - it may be the "strongest" army in the Middle East but I don't think it is anywhere near being the strongest army in the world.
"The only places that are lush and green, are the ones under Israeli guidance" - and why do you think that is?

#69 Wee Jimmy the Jew-hater.

Nice to see you've not lost any of that dirty mouth when you get upset. All mouth & no brains.
You're the last person anyone would ask for advice on refugees of any description.
If you don't like what I say about you and your fellow BROWN-SHIRTS -tough! I'll follow you whatever blog your on.

86. Lynne

"bill1, the Arabs decided rather than accept their state they would annihilate Israel..not because it was unfair"

It depends on which account you prefer. I recommend the following, well worth reading, which reveals many other aspects:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembe...

#87
Never been so shut up.
Stick to your "duty free" week away in Spain and we'll all be happy

RIGHT of RETURN of JEWS to ALL THEIR LAND

Right of return is non-negotiable. All Jewish land stolen
in the 1948 Islamic invasion must be returned.

In 1948, Egypt invaded Gaza, ethnically cleansing all
Jews.

In 1948, Jordan invaded Judea, Samaria and east
Jerusalem, ethnically cleansing
all Jews. Jordan
destroyed 58 sacred synagogues in Jerusalem.

Arab Muslims first started calling themselves "Palestinians" in 1967. When Israel won Islam's war of aggression
against her in 1967, Jews returned to the areas of
their ancestral homeland they had been ethnically cleansed from
for 19 years. Jew-haters deceitfully call Jews' legitimate return "occupation".

Under international law, territories are considered
"occupied" only when taken in an act of aggression
which does not apply to Israel. Judea, Samaria and
Gaza are not 'occupied territories' according to
international law because they were not taken from any
foreign sovereign.

The religious terror war against Jews never stops. The war against Israel is a war against all of civilization. It is unacceptable to Islamists for Jews to have
self-rule in the tiny, re-born Jewish state - a bloody, global war to subjugate every nation
under sharia law.

bill1 I prefer tohttp://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/What_To_Do_ab...$.asp
among others..as I know this is too biased for you, but read it, it is interesting.

#88. Stan the Vicious anti-goy - I note your personality is as rancid as ever but do not see any sign of you being a member of Mensa.
I don't have any fellow brownshirts other than in your crazed imagination. Follow what you like, you are quite simply a weirdo with a chip on his shoulder. I will post what I like and about what i like and if you don't like it....tough. Kvetsch away Litvak dreck.

#91. Gina (ex Yorkie) - "Never been so shut up" - sorry, don't take orders from a former chocolate bar.
Never been to Spain other than of cross border "raid" from Gibraltar so "stick" your advice.

#79. thatscottishwoman 2 - See post #92 - only here for a rant, not for debate of any sort. A propagandist of the worst sort.

#94 Wee Jimmy Jew-hater.
The only club that you might have joined was the
Ordnertruppen. You would have possibly risen to the rank of Ernst Röhm's bedwarmer.
Keep posting, bampot. Sweet dreams!

#97. Stan the Goyim hating mamzer - "You would have possibly risen to the rank of Ernst Röhm's bedwarmer" - as someone with a gay bondage brownshirt fetish, you would seem more qualified for this position than I. Hope your matress stays dry tonight (as your so full of it).

Yet again the Muslims demonstrate the hypocrisy of religion, again they attack other Muslims. This was a process advocated and practised by the war monger Mohammad.

Mohammad used religion as a means of establishing a power base and raising an army.

He claimed to have been visited by the Archangel Gabriel as a means to cover up his epileptic fits.

He was a recorded paedophile and rapist. Hell he married a 6 year old in his fifties.

Mohammad made war on his own kind and killed, subjugated and enslaved many more of his own kind than he did Christians or Jews.

He was such a good prophet and leader that he was unable to even establish a viable form of government or even one that would last after his death. His children and grandchildren went to war over his legacy of conquest and divided the spoils amongst themselves. In so doing they split forever the Muslim faith.

Mohammad hated the Jews because he could not subjugate them.

The followers of Mohammad are still fighting each other to-day, they will never learn.

While I realise that similar things have happened in other religious groups I think that they have learned over the years and now exercise common sense and intelligence in their dealings. Not only with themselves but also with other religious groups.

The Muslims need one religious leader and one faith. The fractured and separatist method of governing their religion that they have now will never stop them being aggressive both to themselves and to outsiders.

Muslims need to advance their culture by about 700 years.

They won’t, like I said they never learn.

Just wanted to be #100

What's next, Bin Laden the new President of Gaza ?
Seal the border and stop the flow of Suicide bombers to Iraq, where do you think those b******* come from.
And don't let new rebels out of the camps from Lebanonth, there they are declaring openly their alliance to Al Qaida. They want to killalll of us, anyone feeling sorry for them, can go and live there.
They made their bed , let them lie in it.

Did Wica Man live in Medina at the time of Mohamed, how does he know ?

The MORAL Obligation of the Free World: Prevent the Planned Second HOLOCAUST of Jews.

Schools, streets and sports teams are named after suicide bombers. Palestinian Authority society are taught murdering Jews is the highest goal and attains paradise:
http://www.pmw.org.il/AFD.html

The Palestinian Authority hailed as heroes the terrorists who brutally murdered defenseless 8 months pregnant Jewish mother, Tali Hatuel, and 4 little daughters in Gush Katif in May 2004.

Hamas Charter: 'Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'

In Sderot, Israeli victims of the “peace process” live in continual fear of constant daily rocket attacks. Their desperate pleas for help are cruelly ignored!

The Palestinian Authority call for the MURDER of ALL Jews and the MURDER of AMERICANS:

Broadcast from Gaza mosque, Oct 13 2000, Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, on Palestinian Authority TV (transcribed by Memri):
"Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them..."

Global jihadists PA/PLO/Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, Syria, Iran, et al, seek the destruction of Israel via a global Islamic TERROR State in the Jewish ancestral homeland of Judea, Samaria, the Golan and Jewish East Jerusalem reducing TINY Israel at mid-section to 9 miles wide indefensible Auschwitz borders - advancing global jihad's march to world conquest and Jewish annihilation!

Stop an Islamic TERROR State in Israel. Prevent a second HOLOCAUST!

The planned second Holocaust extends far beyond Israel - in 2000, leaflets were distributed in major British cities that inclu

#63 Boab

Boab said:

"#54 57Nomad: Well, this might be true but if the Palestinians had a decent economy they would probably have a well-cultivated land too. Israel has to be blamed to some extent for keeping Palestine dirt-poor."

The Israelis have nothing to do with keeping the Palestinians dirt-poor. Israel was created by the UN in 1948. The Israelis started even with the Arabs. Don't forget that the Jews living in the affected areas had to vacate their homes and land also.

Furthermore, there were roughly the same amount of people displaced. If anyone has had their economy burdened it has been Israel, not the Palestinians. The Palestinians have burdened themselves for no good reason.

Here is the take home message. A reasonable man could not be faulted for believing that the driving force in the mid-east is the Arabs intention to destroy Israel. Any other starting point is too dangerous considering both the rhetoric and actions of the Islamic world via Israel and the West in the past few decades. The unfortunate conclusion that must be drawn is that there is no point in talking with those who have committed themselves to your annihilation.

They are a people in the clutches of demented, violent thugs, murderers, and thieves. How disheartening it must be for the everyday Palestinian, locked in their rooms lying on the floor, while the opposing Mafiosi shoot it out on the street, to hear free people side with the gangsters that are exploiting them and making them pawns in their sociopathic and twisted struggle. These guys aren't freedom fighters or anything of the kind. They are warlords. The Palestinians, whoever they maybe, are well and truly hosed. They have lapsed from the clutches of the devil on earth to the devil himself.

They are the pawns of lager powers. They are getting played and their puppet masters seem to be on the verge of sacrificing the Palestinians to serve themselves. Don't

#102; it's all information you can research yourself you only have to do the work.

James Donald, I am curious, where did you learn Yiddish?

It should be remembered that until Jesus Christ “Jews” and “Arabs” had the same religion and were all from the same basic stock. The religious split when the “Jews” decided not to recognise Jesus as a prophet. Further alienation occurred with the rise to power of the War Lord Mohamad.

to that scottishwoman..... I am saying that those refugees who are in camps should be absorbed by the countries they are in, and the arab world, in the same way that Israel had to absorb the jews of Europe and the jews of the muslim world. One solution is to give them the homes of the jews driven from the arab countries. For once the arab and persian oil money can be spent on something more constructive than funding war and terror throughout the world. The arabs who occupy portions of Israel could negotiate with Israel to remain as long as they dont seek to destroy Israel. HOwever, I see no jews living in the arab portions of Israel so I dont bleieve there can be peaceful coexistence. Jews cannot own land or be full citizens of Jordan so why should arabs be full citizens of Israel? The arabs of the west bank are citizens of jordan as the land was captured from jordan. There can be no solution that could in the future subject the jews to living under the dhimmitude which the muslim world imposed on them in the past. The arabs in Israel are like the imported scots of northern Ireland and the colonial whites of africa in that they are the descendants of the receivors of stolen property. the receivors of stolen property cannot have more rights than the original owners. They might reach an accord and they might not. In the case of a population who freely elects a terrorist government who does not operate under the geneva conventions then they cannot claim the protection of the geneva conventions. Futher than this, I am not interested in discussing the future of the arab refugees unless the jewish refugees from arab lands are addressed in the same discussion. I have not seen you show any interest in this or is it that your knowledge does not extend to this?

#35-Robin- Pucker-up!

#100- Wicca Man-Congratulations!!

Getting thrown off roofs, being shot point blank & being shot in front of family members by fellow (ruling) palestinians. If given a choice, I guarantee these victims would have been lining up for a chance to go to club gitmo (guantanamo) with 3 meals a day, a place to sleep, reading Harry Potter books after reading their koran & praying, getting exercise & medical attention.

Niadh,

Since commenting on the article "Hamas gunning for change" is closed and I wanted to respond to your 119, I hope you'll see this message here.

Niadh: "Again this comes down to perception I have been critical of Israeli methods before, hell I have been quite critical of Tony Blair."

No big deal. I expect that most of us are critical of our government and other governments. I know I am.

Niadh: "I have heard it on the news and other forms of Media. Whenever such things are said there is usually some hyper aggresive type that starts jumping up and down yelling anti-semite, Nazi lover, anti jew until the source of the original quote goes away or apologises. Shame them into submission."

While no doubt this happens, there is also something else going on: People trying to shield their anti-Semitic views from criticism by crying "don't label me anti-Semitic, as you Jews/Zionists/Israelis so frequently do to protect yourselves from legitimate criticism..."

Another point: Believe it or not, you may not be as sensitive to anti-Semitism as Jews are; as you think you are; or as you should be.

Consider for example your telling me that the label makes you feel like your being called a Nazi. Why can't Jews point out when prejudice, hate, oppression, discrimination, persecution, etc. is directed against Jews, even if it doesn't quite reach the level of the Holocaust? Suddenly after the Holocaust, if you apply double standard, take some widespread or universal trait or phenomenon and blame only Jews for it, etc., you can't be accused of anti-Semitism because you're not a Nazi?

Also, consider your admission that you have compared Israel to Nazi Germany. Do you understand why such a comparison is obscene, defamatory and offensive? More on that below.

Niadh: "We have to get rid of those at the right of the spectrum on all faiths if we are to have a hope of moving this forward.&q

Cyril: "As a former member of the British Army in Palestine any person who believes in democracy and human rights should support Hamas and Hizbollah."

LMAO. Yo, Cyril, what does being a former member of the British Army in Palestine have to do with anything? And what do democracy and human rights have to do with Hamas and Hizbullah?

#106. Lynne, USA - I don't really know Yiddish just a few words I leared at school whilst learning German (it is a Germanic language so some of the words are quite similar - my German teacher was quite excentric and made us learn things like this and the Süterlin script which is no longer in use in Germany). Only intended to poke fun at that meshuggener Stan, so sorry if I caused you any offense.

Linda Rivera

There are many good comment in this thread but yours are the most interesting of all. I couldn't write any better and I've learnt so much from you. Keep up your good works. Please keep posting.

Those who treat your posts as propaganda have one thing in common. They are blind to the truth and cannot accept the reality. Simple as that.

Brenrod

Hi there. Good posts too.

James Donald, cc: Lynne

James Donald: "I don't really know Yiddish just a few words I leared at school whilst learning German (it is a Germanic language so some of the words are quite similar...)"

True. But the words "goyim" and "mamzer" came into Yiddish from, and are identical in, Hebrew.

When will those of us who might consider themselves to be members of Civilized Western Culture, and that should include any moslem who is truly "moderate," come to finally realize that Islam is a Religion of Conquest? That it has been so from the very beginning, that the Koran advocates slavery, that slavery continues to be practiced in most of the so-called "Arab" world (slavery was officially legal in Saudi Arabia until the 1960's). And it gets worse.
If Islam did not invent intolerance it certainly has achieved levels of it that are unsurpassed in human history (whether the nacis are an exception in this regard can actually be debated). The great Shah Jahan, for whom Hindu engineers built the Taj Mahal, publicly suggested that a day in which at least 10,000 Hindus were not imaginatively slaughtered cannot be considered a good day.
While navigating airplanes for the US Air Force a bunch of years ago my airplane had to divert to Jeddah. We got put up in a luxury hotel, and everything was fine, but in the morning I heard noise outside my third story window. There was a crowd, a guy with an axe and a block, and another guy whose head came off a few minutes later.
Years passed before the significance of what I had seen soaked in. It turns out that in any so called "Arab" city you have available a wide choice of entertainment on any given day. Take your pick of public stonings, public hangings, even public rectal impalements, not to speak of such relatively minor things as public amputations of hands, feet and tongues. You can be sure that the population of people with missing limbs is increasing in Gaza as we speak. Fear and terror are as Islamic as apple pie is American. Islam as we know it could not exist without such tactics.
The subjugation of women would not be possible, and that's why the current spate of accelerated expansionist aims of the Islamic world.
It's the inter

#108 Brenrod:

Yes, I know the history, I have lived and worked in the region.

We have to know our history to make sense of the present and to plan for the future. I believe that we must accept that two distinct nations and cultures now exist as Palestine and Israel and we have to look at ways that can ensure that both can continue to exist safely and securely. I do not believe that another mass clearance is the answer.

#117. SMG, Beit Shemesh, Israel - I was given to understand that Yiddish is a sort of mixture of Hebrew words and German, it being recognised as a Germanic language (as opposed to a German dialect). Perhaps that is one reason that some Jews from the former Soviet states (where Yiddish was once quite widely spoken) come to Germany instead of Israel, as they can learn the German language quickly in order to integrate, whereas in Israel they would be obliged to learn modern Hebrew.

93. Lynne

Thanks for the link, which is about Sderot.

It occurs to me that Israelis can move to safety, but the Palestinians cannot.

What is happening in Gaza is that Israel will not renounce its claim to sovereignty, but at the same time is not prepared to exercise its duty of care for its subjects. The Palestinians are prisoners in their own homes, and are entitled to resist the occupation.

If this entails firing rockets into a de facto exclusion zone like Sderot, then this is a consequence of the Israeli occupation.

The solution is obvious, but as I said, Israel will not renounce its sovereignty claim to Gaza or the West Bank either. Until it does, then no peace is possible.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51a/007.html

#68. MichScot, USA

Its very unfortunate, but Hamas had to this Gaza clean up from corrupted traitors of Fateh who collaborate with Israel /US and hurt the Palestinian interest.

Its not against the entire Fateh but only against a small gang of collaborators who were controlling Fateh leadership in Gaza, that’s why such huge Fateh force (60,000) just melted away with negotiation with Hamas.

West has habit of blaming Muslims. But it’s the Christians who killed Jews in millions in the early 20th Century. Europeans killed millions of american Indians and Australian aboriginals in past few centuries. It was the European who did slave traded/tortured and killed African black people. Americans were behind wars in Vietnam, Cambodia, Afghan, Iraq etc., with false excuses and lies.

Jews started Colonising Palestine when the Brits vacated it. Muslims are the most backward people today because of European colonisation and current dirty intervention. Before that we were very advanced and prosperous.

Do you know what atrocities Christians committed on Muslims and Jews when the crusades capture Jerusalem? But When we liberate it we didn’t hurt Christians or Jews. We are very generous. Today Christians are a sizable community in Palestine and they also suffer in the hands of brutal Jews.

#121. Dragonhead, China - Ah, Captain Charm rear his ugly head. I think we established earlier that you don't know your Oberleutnant from your Obersturmfuhrer and probably not your arse from your elbow.
When I come across any "real" warriors, I'll happily "take them on", but all I see is you an abusive big head with a high opinion of himself (which few share) and a galloping Walter Mitty complex. Run along now and leave the debate to the grown ups.

bill1: "It occurs to me that Israelis can move to safety, but the Palestinians cannot."

How can Israelis "move to safety" when Palestinians infiltrate into our cities and towns wearing suicide belts? To the extent that we are safe, it is because of the passive and active self-defence measures we have taken, including contruction of the separation barrier, targetted killings of terrorist leaders, destruction of the infrastructure of terrorism, etc.

Every place can be a place of safety or danger -- it only matters whether our relationship is one of war or peace.

bill1: "What is happening in Gaza is that Israel will not renounce its claim to sovereignty..."

What claim of sovereignty? Perhaps you haven't heard of disengagement two years ago?

bill1: "The Palestinians...are entitled to resist the occupation" and we are entitled to resist their "resistance" -- which consists chiefly of blowing up buses and restaurants, murderous attacks on civilians, and other war crimes.

bill1: "If this entails firing rockets into a de facto exclusion zone like Sderot"

A "de facto exclusion zone"? What in the world are you talking about? I hope you realize that you are now making excuses for acts that are universally recognized to be war crimes.

bill1: "then this is a consequence of the Israeli occupation."

Well, there you go, bill1 -- the Palestinians are free to do whatever they please, including commit war crimes. Why? It's all a consequence of "the occupation". The mother of all poor excuses.

bill1: "The solution is obvious"

If the solution were so obvious, it would have been implemented long ago, without controversy or widespread resistance on either side. I guess it isn't so obvious. Thankfully, there is an overlap of interests and possibilities among moderate people on both sides, and this is where the solution l

Ruwan: "Jews started Colonising Palestine when the Brits vacated it."

It sounds like you don't know either the ancient or the modern history of the land.

Ruwan, tell me, what is the origin of the word "Jew"?

123 Ruwan
What lies you tell.
When Jordan captured the Jewish quarter and the Old City of Jerusalem in 1949 they burned and looted all of the 60+ synagouges there and destroyed Jewish homes and forced all the Jews to leave.
The Palestinians have repeatedly burned the synagouge in Hebron from 1929 on and have desecrated the Tomb of Joseph multiple times.
Jews were not allowed to even visit the Western Wall from the occupation in 1949 until the reunification in 1967.

Dont try to spread lies about mythical Musli tolerance.

"SMG"---i read a recent article by "Glenn Milosh", a local resident, in our local paper...he states that 'there has never been a 'state of Palestine' & Jerusalem has never been an Arab Muslim capital"..
"no independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine"..."there was no big controversy or grab for that land, only when the state of Israel was declared did we see this made-up "Palestinian" Arab nation come into existance"....(me),ok, so why didn't they go back when the Jordanians occupied it between 1948 & 1967?.....why wouldn't they want to live in their most holy of cities, Jerusalem?? also, wasn't it the Jews who lived on that land, not the so called Palestinians??
question; after the Arab armies attacked Israel in '48, about 650/thousand Arabs left the area, are these the "refugees" of today?? & why didn't the Arab nations absorb them into their communities after the war?? & why between 1948 & 1967, didn't Jordan & Egypt who controlled the West Bank & Gaza not attempt to create a Palestinian state??

i hope my post isn't too confusing, just a few ? to understand this article....

125. SMG

It occurs to me that Israelis can move to safety, but the Palestinians cannot.

I am talking about the particular case of Gaza and Sderot.

What is happening in Gaza is that Israel will not renounce its claim to sovereignty.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51a/007.html

Read the link.

I said "the Palestinians...are entitled to resist the occupation" and you say "we are entitled to resist their "resistance""

Yes, but neither of you are entitled to harm civilians. In fact, Israel as occupier has a duty to protect Palestinian civilians.

If this entails firing rockets into a de facto exclusion zone like Sderot, then this is a consequence of the Israeli occupation.

The sensible thing to do is to take your civilians out of range of the rockets; the Palestinians do not have the reciprocal option.

The solution is obvious; Israel renouncing its claim to sovereignty in Gaza and West Bank, as a necessary prerequisite for a two state solution.

Why don't you do it?

66. thatscottishwoman 2
74. thatscottishwoman 2
76. thatscottishwoman 2
79. thatscottishwoman 2
82. thatscottishwoman 2
119. thatscottishwoman 2

Troll

128. sandy

The State of Palestine was administered by Britain following the demise of the Ottoman Empire. It consisted primarily of indigenous Arabs and immigrant Jews. The 1947 Partition Plan was designed to provide for a Jewish State and a Palestinian State in that territory, but due to disagreement only the Jewish State (Israel) came into being within the original boundaries.

Until agreement is reached and the new Palestinian State is formed in accordance with the Partition Plan, Israel lacks validity.

131 Bill

The MANDATE of Palestine (different from a State ) consisted primarily of NATIVE JEWS and a mix of Native and immigrant Arabs. In fact, the Jewish population in the areas now called Israel and the WB and GAza were larger than the Arab population.

In 1927, Brittian gave 80% of the Mandate to the Arabs to have their own state, with the reswt to be reserved for the Jews of the region.
But the Arabs were not satisfied with 99.8% of the Middle East and wanted to steal the part that was for the Jews.
The Jews aquieced and the UN partition plan divided the small 20% the Jews were to have even further. But the Arabs rejected it and went to war.

Israel won her validity the same way the US did, by fighting a war of independence against a vastly superior foe and kicking the tar out of them.

Only those bridled by hate pretend Israel has no validity. Sound familiar Bill?

Here is a ref. to the Ottoman Empire census for Jerusalem in 1905.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08364a.htm

Jerusalem (El Quds) is the capital of a Sanjak and the seat of a Mutasarrif directly dependent on the Sublime Porte. In the administration of the sanjak the mutasarrif is assisted by a council called majlis ida ra; the city has a municipal government (majlis baladiye) presided over by a mayor. The total population is estimated at 66,000. The Turkish census of 1905, which counts only Ottoman subjects, gives these figures: Jews, 45,000; Moslems, 8,000; Orthodox Christians, 6000; Latins, 2500; Armenians, 950; Protestants, 800; Melkites, 250; Copts, 150; Abyssinians, 100; Jacobites, 100; Catholic Syrians, 50. During the nineteenth century large suburbs to the north and east have grown up, chiefly for the use of the Jewish colony. These suburbs contain nearly half the present population.

#123--Ruwan---""Muslims are the most backward people today because of European colonisation & current dirty intervention""...

no!...they are the "most backward people", because they will not try to get beyond blaming everyone other than themselves for all their woe's, which hinders their progressing out of the last century....
i believe the Arab nations prefer this & want the Palestinians fighting Israel, so they don't have to deal w/the Palestinians directly.....they're all rotten to the core....& the tiny state of Israel is hated by all in that region, yet is the most prosperous & Democratic of them all......go figure!!!

#130--whoever you are!!....you know not from what you post....
"thatscottishwoman 2" is NOT a troll....

#129--Bill, england---""in fact, Israel as occupier""(out of context).... please explain what part of Gaza & West Bank Israel occupies?

132. Tikun

"The MANDATE of Palestine (different from a State ) consisted primarily of NATIVE JEWS"

A State can be a Mandate and vice versa.

How can you say they were native Jews when there were only a few thousand there at the beginning of the 19th century? Unless of course, you mean native-born, which is quite different.

Bill,
A Mandate is an administered territoriy, a State is self-ruled.
Dont try to invent your own definito ns to suit your agenda.

And the native Jews have been there in an unbroken chain for over 2,000 years.

And the nomadic Arabs who came in as the economy improved are hardly native. Unless you want to call Caairo born Arafat 'native'

135. sandy

Israel occupies all of Gaza and the West Bank. They may not have troops there, but by controlling the borders, airspace and sea they have the status of occupiers in international law.

Linda in #92 claims otherwise, and SMG says that Israeli gave up the claim to sovereignty in Gaza with the disengagement. The situation is far from clear, and you might care to look at this link which I posted earlier:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51a/007.html

#133 Tikun:

Further to your figures:

"According to Ottoman records, in 1878 there were 462,465 subject inhabitants of the Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre districts: 403,795 Muslims (including Druze), 43,659 Christians and 15,011 Jews. In addition, there were perhaps 10,000 Jews with foreign citizenship (recent immigrants to the country), and several thousand Muslim Arab nomads (bedouin) who were not counted as Ottoman subjects. The great majority of the Arabs (Muslims and Christians) lived in several hundred rural villages. Jaffa and Nablus were the largest and economically most important Arab towns."

"By the outbreak of World War I (1914), the population of Jews in Palestine had risen to about 60,000, about 33,000 of whom were recent settlers. The Arab population in 1914 was 683,000."

http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/intro-pal-is...

#128 Sandy: The above linked page (and others within the website) are good primers.

Bill
How disingenous can you get?
Your article is from 1995. The Gaza disengagement is from last year

How can you pretend a 10 year old article refers to a one year old event?

Oh yeah, because truth never affects your hate.

138. Tikun

I notice you didn't answer my question in #137.

There are many definitions of state and mandate - take your pick.

"the native Jews have been there in an unbroken chain for over 2,000 years."

I don't dispute it; well over 2000 years in fact, like the Arabs.

The Partition Plan was an attempt to divide Palestine between the Palestinian Jews who were mainly descended from immigrants and the indigenous Palestinian Arabs; after sixty years agreement still hasn't been reached.

And the nomadic Arabs who came in as the economy improved are hardly native. Unless you want to call Caairo born Arafat 'native'

141. Tikun

I'm aware it is an old article, but the principles are the same.

Do you agree that the disengagement in Gaza was a renouncement of Israel's claim to sovereignty?

140. thatscottishwoman 2

Troll

We continue to argue who is "right" or innocent in Israel. I can give you a simple and correct answer,,nobody.

Israel has been a battlefield since recorded history and no doubt before. Every group who occupied Israel did so by killing others.

The current government in Israel respects democratic ideals and the vast majority of Arabs who live in Israel would not want to live under Palestinian rule.

The biggest problem the Palestinians have is themselves. Arabs need to work on peace, not war.

"The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity " Henry Kissinger.

144. Conservativeman U.S.

What was your first clue?

135. sandy, USA

Wake up!

#140 TSW2
Gets a bit confusing with TSW & TSW2, TISWAS will be on next. Are you both related?
But seriously, "According to Ottoman records" etc. - Are there any Palestinian records that can be referred to?

Stan, there was no "Palestine". The Ottoman Empire ruled that area until after World War 1 . The Ottomans had sided with Germany and after the war the Brittish and French took control of the area.

The Brittish named the area Palestine in 1922 and because the Arabs mostly hated the Britts, no Arab would ever call himself Palestinian at that time.

There were Palestinian newspapers and other organizations at that time but they were mostly Jewish run. Arabs would not use the word Palestinian until the 1940s.

There was a province of the Ottoman Empire called Palestina, but the area was in what is now Jordan.

Just for the record. Most of the names we know in the Middle East,,,Iran Iraq Jordan Yemen, Palestine Saudi Arabia etc were all invented in London after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The French and the English broke the Ottoman Empire into smaller countries.

Bill,
I didnt anmswer your question because it was nonsensical. There were over 45,000 Jews living in Jerusalem alone by the last Ottoman census and less than 20,000 of all other groups combined.
For you to keep trying to pretend there were many more of the migratory Arabs who came and left the region and that their wanderings present an unbroken chain is ludicrous.

The Partition plan was yet another attempt to give Jewish lands to Arabs in the hopes the Arabs would act peacably. It didnt work when they were given 80% of the land in 1927 and it didnt work when they were offered almost 60% of the remaining 20%.

And lastly, no, there are not any definitions you want to pick out of a hat.
There has never been a soverign state named Palestine. Never in any history books anywhere.

In fact, until 1947, the only peoples regularly referred tos 'Palestinian' were the native Jews of the area. The Arabs rejected that name vigourosly until a Cairo born Arab named Yasser Arafat chose to lead a group of Arabs and call themselves Palestinian

#148 Stan: Come on you know I am peerless. There is only one thatscottishwoman.

I assume you have picked up on my reason for posting the figures at #40.

The following link looks at the issue of figures in more detail:

http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm

151. Tikun

How about the first Ottoman Census? Or are you going to say it's unreliable because they didn't register to evade taxes?

Do you have an answer for the question in #143 yet? The sovereign state of Palestine will be unchallenged if Israel renounces the sovereignty claim.

Bill
That you make up 'facts' to suit your agenda does not neccestiate response. I showed you real numbers and you reply with imaginary Arabs.

As to your 'question' Israel does not exercise sovereignty over Gaza. It has said so on multiple occasions.
It DOES control ITS border with Gaza though.

So now answer my question. Since Gaza gets all its electricity and water from Israel, should Israel have the right to refuse to sell them water and electricity if Hamas keeps launching missiles at Israel?
Or does Israel have to sell to those who wish to kill her?

Do the Arabs have to drop the Arab boycott of Israel?

Gaza was part of Egypt. Israel captured Gaza during the "6 day war" when Egypt and several other Arab countries tried to destroy Israel. The Golan heights were also captured then.

I think Israel would love to give up all links with Gaza.

The west bank and Gaza are supposed to become part of a Palestinian state, but the events recently make it look like they may become two separate states.

The the Arabs are now divided and killing each other. Hamas militia funded by Iran is killing the Abass led people and the usual retaliations etc.

The West Bank looks like they will remain under Abbas control while Gaza is under Hamas. Gaza looks like a nightmare.

More than 3 million people live in Gaza. I don't think Israel is willing to cut off electricity and water to 3 million poor people who have no place to go.

Hamas will launch rockets into Israel and hope that Israel shoots back and hits civilians so that they can get the western media to condemn Israel. We will see ugly times ahead.

156
1.4 million people live in Gaza. People sometimes inflate that number as high as 2 million for propoganda purposes, but never so high as 3.

Just an FYI

James Donald.. # 114 you caused me absolutely NO offense. I just found it funny and, believe it or not "endearing" that you can remember the "good" words of description!!
Believe me, there is no offense on this end.

#157 Tikun:

Correct! 1.4 million people on a 40 kilometre long, 9 kilometre wide area of land is bad enough.

#159
Who makes them have an average of 5.2 children per family?
Is that forced upon them, or are you once again trying to make excuses so they will not have to live with responsibility for their choices?

#118-backtobasics-"Islam is a Religion of Conquest"
I realize it!

#158. Lynne, USA - There are quite a few Yiddish words that have found there way into the English language (like "nosh" as in a good nosh up ie a good feed) and I suppose it is even more so the case in the USA in places like New York. Schoolboy (but not girls) always want to know the nasty words first whatever language they are learning. I think the funniest episode of "Frasier" was the one where he was pretending to be Jewish for the sake of his girlfriend....oy.

#160-tikun- After hearing how the "men" (& I use that term loosely) treat their women- 5.2 children just actually might be FORCED on the women.

1.4 Million looks to be correct.

Today there are a couple of hundred people camped in a concrete tunnel at the Israeli border trying to leave Gaza. Gunmen have walked into the tunnel and started shooting at the people a few times only to be chased off by Israeli border patrol.

Israel has not opened the border because the Palestinian Authority police who had been in charge of the border have fled the Islamic militants who now control Gaza.

154. Tikun

"Israel does not exercise sovereignty over Gaza. It has said so on multiple occasions."

Thank you for your clear reply. That being the case, there is no doubt that Israel is the occupying power in Gaza, and it has a duty of care to the civilian population under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

"So now answer my question. Since Gaza gets all its electricity and water from Israel, should Israel have the right to refuse to sell them water and electricity if Hamas keeps launching missiles at Israel? Or does Israel have to sell to those who wish to kill her?"

No.

Israel has a duty to provide electricity, water, gas, fuel, food, medical supplies etc to maintain the civilian population. It cannot withhold those supplies, with or without payment for them.

"Do the Arabs have to drop the Arab boycott of Israel?"

Which Arabs, which boycott, for what reason?

164. Disambiguation, USA

"Today there are a couple of hundred people camped in a concrete tunnel at the Israeli border trying to leave Gaza. Gunmen have walked into the tunnel and started shooting at the people a few times only to be chased off by Israeli border patrol. Israel has not opened the border because the Palestinian Authority police who had been in charge of the border have fled the Islamic militants who now control Gaza."

Israel is the occupying power in Gaza and is responsible for protecting the civilian population.

If, as seems the case, these couple of hundred people are in danger, then Israel should open the border and provide for them according to the Fourth Geneva Convention.

#139--Bill, england--thanks for the link:)..a bit old, but searched Dr. Sara Roy..read her "the economy og Gaza"(2006)...interesting but i can't buy her premise that Israel is responsible for their unemployment, food shortages or just their basic living conditions....have they not had every possible chance to have a productive working society? certainly, when their sovereignty was regained, they could have, should have started on that track!
what they did was what they always do, pick another fight with Israel....do you think if the Palestinians in Gaza were to say ok, no more fighting with Israel, we want to settle down & be a productive territory(?) state(?), Hamas would let them?.......i think not...you can't just keep feeding a state that doesn't want to do for themselves..can you?.....

#167-bill1-Nah. The sexism part is wrong. I was only talking about the islamic males, not all males.

#140--TSW 2---good link, thanks....
link @152---not sure of...read the "important note"..
on the link...interesting.

hugh storm coming our way..must sign off...

#160 Tikun:

Here we go back to that issue of figures again.

If demographics are an issue of concern for you, you might be interested in the following link:

http://www.pademographics.com/AIDRG_Israel_59th_April_24_...

#165 Bill

You cant answer both ways as you tried.

Does ISrael have troops in Gaza? No
Does ISrael exert governing authoirty over Gaza? No
Go Gazans have means of leaving that do not go through Israel or Israeli control? Yes.

Israel has no troops, no police, no governing authority in Gaza whatso ever. Israel polices Gazas entrances intoIsrael but not into Egypt.
Thus thank you for YOUR clear answer. Israel is NOT occupying Gaza.

That said Israel can refuse to sell Gaza electricity if it pleases.

#172 scottishwoman
Smokescreens aside (as what that article had to do with the price of eggs in China, Ill never know)
Who do you hold responsible for the Palestinians having 5.2 children per family?

Do you EVER hold Palestinians responsible for their own choices?

#170 Sandy: You are welcome. Link at #152 is just to demonstrate the myriad data around on population statistics and how it can be manipulated:-)

Batten down the hatches.

#174 Tikun:

The link shows the demographic predictions to 2025, I thought you would be interested in this given you are raising the issue of the number of children born to Palestinian women.

"Who do you hold responsible for the Palestinians having 5.2 children per family?"

I don't understand the point of this question as there can only be one answer, the person/s responsible are the parents of the children.

One point I will make is that a high birth rate is an indicator of poverty. Research shows that as economic status improves the birth rate falls.

The Palestinians have never had full control of their economy so it would be false to assert that they are fully to blame for the poverty that currently exists.

I have to sign off.

Nitol

168. sandy

I keep having to say this; an occupying power has obligations to the civilian population as per the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Israel controls the borders, the airspace and the sea, so it is the occupying power. Whether or not it has troops in Gaza is immaterial.

Scottishwo,an
So again you abdicatew from Palestinians the responsibility for their own actions.

Poverty and birthrate is a two way street. Having more children than you can afford s a way into poverty.

So in your world Gaza is overcroweded, but it is not the fault of the Palestinians who have 5.2 children each
Gaza is poor, but its not because they burned the greenhouses left to them nor because they would raher use the aid they are given to buy weapons rather than food or suppkies to make items to sell
Palestinians elected Hamas which has the open agenda of the destruction of Israel and uses its fighters to laubnch missiles into Israel, but it is not the fault of the Palestinians

Tell me, when in your world are the Plestinians EVER responsible for their own actions?

I wish I could say that the Muslims are totally peace-loving, but I cannot. I have read the Qu'ra'n and several books by Arab ex-Muslims. I do know that in some ways you have better policies than we, but we also have some that are better than you. And I am not speaking strictly of religion here.

No religion has only perfect people in them because the fact is that NO ONE is perfect.

I really do not care to be conquered by Islam because I fully believe in my God as you do yours.

"Jew " comes from Judah, as I'm sure you know. He was one of Abraham's grandsons, and the land that is being fought over was given to the Jews by God Himself at the end of the Exodus. It is in the Torah, the writings of Moses, and I know that Islam claims to hold these writing in high regard. The name "Israel" comes from the name given to Jacob after he wrestled with God, and he is Judah's father.

How can you contest God's own decision? It is because Islam claims that the writings of the Jews and Christians have been falsified. This is another of Satan's tricks: to have us doubt the veracity of God's Word.

Try reading these writings before you throw them out, and remember that many writings are considered heresy and Satan is showing them to us today to make us doubt God's Word.

Why were they considered heresy? Because someone would come up with a controversial idea that was not what God taught. And, lo,and behold! An "ancient writing" or "lost testament" supporting the person's self-serving argument would magically appear. They were falsifications, and the church leaders of the time knew it. The problem now is that they are again coming to light.

Look at the life of Jesus. He was/IS sinless. That is something that no human can achieve. But even if he were only a prophet as Islam says, we can all benefit by trying to emulate Him.

#178
And no matter how many times you lie, it is still not true.

Israel has no troops in Gaza
Israel does not exercise police presence in Gaza
Israel does not exercise governmental control over Gaza
Gazans have alternative routes to leave not controlled by Israel

Thus Israel is NOT occupying Gaza accoriding to any definitons except perhaps by you for wanting it to be so.

Try truth for a change

173. Tikun

I keep having to tell you this.

Israel controls the borders, the airspace and the sea, so it is the occupying power.

Whether it has troops or governing authority there is immaterial.

Israel has a duty to provide basic supplies including electricity to Gaza with or without payment.

About the Crusades: Europe had been overrun.

There were Moors in Spain, which had been Christian hundreds of years before Muhammad. The same is true of parts of Africa and Arabia. The Crusades, although often motivated by evil, greedy, and powerful men, were a backlash to save Europe and Christianity. There were noble reasons for them, as well.

BUT it cannot be said that the Crusades were the beginning of the clash. That started with Isaac and Ishmael, and it is still going strong today.

WILL WE NEVER LEARN?

Bill,
And no matter how many times you lie, it is still not true.

Israel has no troops in Gaza
Israel does not exercise police presence in Gaza
Israel does not exercise governmental control over Gaza
Gazans have alternative routes to leave not controlled by Israel

Thus Israel is NOT occupying Gaza accoriding to any definitons except perhaps by you for wanting it to be so.

#184 Tikun: I think you're hair-splitting there. Israel has done lots of terrible things in Palestine and as far as I know, they hold the ultimate power over that territory. I'm not sure of the exact political set-up but it seems like the violence stems from the Palestinians being unable to run their own economy or govern themselves.

You can blame them for having too many children, following the wrong religion or supporting bad leaders but they are only the product of a poor, overcrowded environment. Israel and the West should be trying to come to a lasting settlement. At the end of the day, Europe and America created this mess.

#152 TSW2

I note that you have signed off. No matter, perhaps you will read this later.
I looked at your reference, which seems to contradict the impression of population figures which you were giving. Indeed, going by that site, it indicates there was no such place named Palestine during the Ottoman period of occupation. The author of the site does use the description Palestine, but that is only to clarify for those who don't know a damn thing about the region (of which there are many on this blog), and to emphasise her own bias. It would seem from your own source that Disambiguation is correct.
Authentic Ottoman records don't use "Palestine". Do you have a source to old Palestinian records during or before the Ottoman period?

#158 Lynne
I'm sure that you are a nice person with good thoughts for everyone, but I object to your description of an out and out racist, homophobe and anti-Semite as "endearing". We have to live amongst these people.

Boab
The Palestinians DO run thei own government. They have their owen police, their own water companies, sewer, sanitation, zoning, etc.

And at the end of the day, it was the Arabs who created this mess. 40 million refugees were left at the end of WWII, only the Arabs now called PAlestinians were purposely set in refugee camps and not resettled.

# 185 Boab.
Let's not forget the Romans, Mohammedans, Christian Europeans and Ottomans contributed a few centuries of mayhem and historical chaos along the way.

184. Tikun

"Bill, And no matter how many times you lie, it is still not true.
Israel has no troops in Gaza
Israel does not exercise police presence in Gaza
Israel does not exercise governmental control over Gaza
Gazans have alternative routes to leave not controlled by Israel
Thus Israel is NOT occupying Gaza accoriding to any definitons except perhaps by you for wanting it to be so."

For a teacher, you are surprisingly ignorant. Allow me to educate you.

Here it is in black and white in an Amnesty International Report:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150252006?open...

Your apology and retraction for accusing me of lying would be in order.

182. bill1

Still spewing hate I see.

bill1 # 131 and Sandy... the statement that there was a disagreement and that is why the Palestinians did not accept their own state is wrong.
They, the Arabs were not about to have a non-muslim society among them. They, the Arabs, DECIDED, that going to war was going to crush Israel out of existance, BUT TO THEIR CHARGRIN THEY LOST THE WAR.
They did not accept a state because it left them in an open state of war with Israel.

Bill
Facinating how you cite Amnesty only when it uits your ends.
Oh and by the way, their OPINION if International Law is THEIR OPINION

Not fact.
And when you figure that out, I'll be waiting for your apology

Stan the Man..I'll accept 'endearing' may be the wrong word...for you. I have no animosity towards James Donald, and I think his using yiddish words was ok (even if he meant it in a not so ok way!!)
Maybe you should learn that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion...even if it doesn't agree with yours.
Lighten up..have a glass of wine.. I don't always (rarely) agree with James...but what the hey!!!
He will believe what he wants anyway..

192. Tikun

If you reject Amnesty International then your ignorance is total, and there is no more to be said.

Or maybe just one thing; the ICRC and UN agree with AI, but I expect you would reject them as well.

Bill
Since you ove Amnesty, I assume you are calling for Haniyeh and the rest of Hamas to be tried for Crimes Against Humanity?

Israel/Occupied Territories/Palestinian Authority

Palestinian Armed Groups' Attacks on Civilians are Crimes Against Humanity New Amnesty International Report: Attacks May Constitute War Crimes

(Washington, DC) -- In a report released today, Amnesty International condemned attacks by Palestinian armed groups against civilians as crimes against humanity and possible war crimes, and called for the perpetrators to be arrested and prosecuted.

"There is no justification for attacking civilians, and Palestinian leaders must clearly state that all such attacks must cease, whether they take place in Israel, the West Bank or Gaza," said William F. Schulz, Executive Director of Amnesty International USA (AIUSA). "Action must then follow words, with those responsible for these attacks arrested and brought to justice in line with international human rights standards."

Amnesty International examined 128 attacks between September 29, 2000 and May 31, 2002 in which 338 civilians were killed. Based on analysis of the attacks and the armed groups claiming responsibility, Amnesty International concludes that the attacks are widespread, systemic, and part of an explicit policy of attacking civilians. Those individuals who order, plan, or carry out such attacks are therefore guilty of crimes against humanity, and the attacks may constitute war crimes. Attacks on civilians are expressly prohibited by the Geneva Conventions and the principles of international humanitarian law.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/2002/israel07112002b.html

#194--Bill, england---i believe i posted my thoughts about amnesty international to you on another forum, but may i reiterate...they are (my figures,based on what i've read)anti-Israel...as is the UN...

#193 Lynne

Thank you for your well-meaning advice.

I'm not sure what experience you have had with the "Wee Jimmys" of this world, but suffice to say had you met him in Nazi Europe he would most likely have been wearing a swastika arm-band and more foul-mouthed than usual, if that is possible. There is no room in civilised society for his kind.
Of course, you are entitled to debate with him your right to rights.

#193--Lynne---well said!!! hi there!..storm over! big bad thunder & lightening, i hid in the basement:)

pleasantries are so very rare with JD that you must take them at face value & enjoy...nothing wrong with that....i thought it was rather sweet! it doesn't change positions held & i hope "stan the man" realizes that....

195. Tikun

"Since you ove Amnesty, I assume you are calling for Haniyeh and the rest of Hamas to be tried for Crimes Against Humanity?"

Yes, of course I will go along with AI's recommendations. Why shouldn't I?

#197. Stan the Mad - You flatter yourself that you, a vicious troll, have a a place in civilised society. If Lynne had met me in Nazi Europe she would need a time machine built for 2, so try writing a) something to do with the story and b) something sane. I don't think that will happen as you are simply a troll that thrives of confrontation. How gratifying for Lynne that you consider she is entitle to debate with whom she chooses.

bill1: "It occurs to me that Israelis can move to safety, but the Palestinians cannot. I am talking about the particular case of Gaza and Sderot."

I don't understand what you mean by this, or what significance you attach to this. Why should anyone have to move? Plus, you should realize that the Palestinians are bombing a larger area than just Sderot.

bill1: "What is happening in Gaza is that Israel will not renounce its claim to sovereignty."

What claim to sovereignty?

I read the link you provided. It wasn't accurate even when it was written, 12 years ago. It is completely irrelevant to today's reality.

bill1: "...Israel as occupier has a duty to protect Palestinian civilians."

Give me an effing break. If Palestinian civilians need Israel's protection, they are showing it in a funny way. They could do quite a bit more to protect themselves. As others have mentioned, the Geneva Conventions were not written to make war or occupation impossible or to protect absurdities, such as Israel's obligation to "protect" suicide bombers, or to refrain from attacking murdererous war criminals who seek shelter among human shields.

Also, the whole question of occupation needs to be examined more carefully. You brought up the issue of control of borders, airspace, and sea. But the Geneva Conventions talk about the responsiblities of the Occupying Power "for the duration of the occupation, to the extent that such Power exercises the functions of government in such territory". Israel exercises no functions of government in Gaza, and also none in the autonomous parts of the West Bank.

bill1: "If this entails firing rockets into a de facto exclusion zone like Sderot..."

Again I have no idea what this means. What is an "exclusion zone"?

bill1: "The sensible thing to do is to take your civilians out of range of the rockets"

No, the sensible

Sandy: "ok, so why didn't they go back when the Jordanians occupied it between 1948 & 1967?....."

Good question.

Sandy: "why wouldn't they want to live in their most holy of cities, Jerusalem??"

Another good question.

Sandy: "also, wasn't it the Jews who lived on that land, not the so called Palestinians??"

I'm not sure I understand the question. Before 1948, the residents of Palestine included Arabs, Jews, and various others. Both Jews and Arabs lived in what later became Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and throughout Jerusalem.

Sandy: "after the Arab armies attacked Israel in '48, about 650/thousand Arabs left the area, are these the 'refugees' of today??"

UNRWA considers Palestinian refugees to be the actual refugees who were displaced in the 1948 war (and btw, there is some disagreement about their numbers) and in subsequent conflicts (most significantly, the 1967 war), as well as all of their descendents.

Originally, "Palestine refugees" referred to displaced Jews, as well (such as those kicked out of Gush Etzion and Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter), but they have all been resettled by Israel.

"Palestinian refugees" are an international anomoly in many ways. In virtually all other refugee crises, the emphasis is on quickly resettling and gaining the protection of some citizenship for the displaced persons. Once this is done, they are no longer refugees.

In the case of the Palestinians, the focus has been on avoiding resettlement, prolonging their refugee status for as long as possible. In many places where the refugees live, they simply cannot acquire local citizenship, and suffer various other forms of discrimination, as well. Even where they have succeeded in gaining citizenship, they continue to be considered refugees. And unlike all other peoples, Palestinians pass their formal refugee status down to later generations.

201. SMG

I am simply making the point that Isralis can move out of the way of the rockets; the Palestinians cannot.

You appear to be confirming that Israel does not claim sovereignty over Gaza or West Bank.

As regards Israel's duties towards Palestine as occupier, you should read the AI report I mentioned above:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150252006?open...

200. James Donald

You gave all sorts of ugly names to Stan The Man just because you disagree with what he writes. Grow up! So who thrive for confrontation? Yours lashing forked tongue best at insult flies to wherever you go speak volume for it in most of your posts! When it comes to terrorism, you show your own double-standard by deliberately picking on the Jews to find faults while turning blind eyes to those atrocities committed by your friends Hamas and Hezbollah!! The same goes to your other Halitosis.