Here we go, yet another tram story.

This is supposed to be the Edinburgh Evening News, not Tram News Daily.

Zzzzzz.

Ever get the feeling you've been had ?

Tram referendum. Oh yes! Ya beauty!

And again.......

Go for the referendum - you're absolutely right Mr. Cardownie - let the people of Edinburgh speak out against this horrendous waste of cash!!!

'He points out no funding is available for the proposed link between Haymarket, Granton, Newhaven and Leith, which would have been the main route serving the waterfront.'

SHOWS YOU THIS HAS NOT BEEN COSTED ANYWHERE NEAR CORRECTLY, no funding for this! Im glad this guy is for a referendum, it makes sense, then no one can argue, simple solution..

Phil Wheeler says; "the result of the congestion-charging referendum worked out for us" ... oh, that's okay then, to hell with the environment. Unbelievable.

#7 your changing your argument, you moaning idiot, moan moan maon

#5 Your right about politics not being like big brother, it is about lining the pockets of the few who will benefit from this public cash guzzling scam.

Give us the vote on it so we can scrap it for good and move on.

Can we make trams the taboo subject in the Scotsman too! Yawn

But why is a tram depot currently under construction if a decision has'nt been made yet? Like the automatic bollards on George Street after the wacky traffic management plan is it all going to get swept under the carpet when it does'nt work out. Consultants love this council.

I just object to Mr Cardownie on principle with his totally populist line on everything mentioned to him.

I understand why he's doing it of course , he's new in office and wants to win friends.

Expect his views and actions to change significantly over the next few months - it's happened with everyone else.

that would be good referendum( Let the people have a say)

Super Mario is always correct, all hail Mario Super, everything he says makes me blush, its so simple and effective.

ohmigod! I'm in agreement with Cardownie - I'll need to go lie down!

So turncoat Steve Cardownie wouldn't want to do anything against the democratic will of the people - except, presumably, be in power in a city in which his party came a poor third with only 12 seats out of 58! Breathtaking hypocrisy.

Anybody seen my friends the Bad and the Ugly, I believe they have been getting pictures taken without me.

zzzzzzzzzzzz

Whats this about trams anyway ?

Ye can stick yer trams where the sun don't shine.

20.
What do you mean. This is huge, it's got all the way over to the States.

Vote No to Referendums. If everything was put to a referendum then people would vote for contradictory combinations. Like, pay less tax and increase public services. Can't be done.

Was it in the SNP manifesto that they would put specific local issues to a referendum? (I honestly don't know).

I think it is disgusting why so much time and energy is being put into these trams not to mention the money. When Edinburgh is a cleaner and safer place to stay then they should be thinking of trams and we are no where near that. I was in London and I couldn't understand the streets being so clean and no buckets in the city Edinburgh is a disgrace in the centre and I always am surprised the comparison in any other European in countries. So as for the trams we dont want or need them and put money to better use.

I think we could do with a change, especially down at the front.

Will the trams run after dark?? Bwahahahhahaaaa!

A referendum has been asked for any number of times but the Labour administration was too much of a control freak to agree a referendum that they knew the answer to and would ignore anyway.

It would be the ideal way in the new sense of constructive politics to enable a decision to be reached, democartically and unequivocally, without any political party having to nail its flag to the mast - if, following a referendum, the Edinburgh voters decided against, the Council would know to withdraw th project and Holyrood would not need to decide whether or not to go ahead with this cost debacle which will end up for the Edinburgh voters to subsidise anyway.

Didnt we just have an election? Didnt the pro tram parties all win?

And didnt the anti tram people have it in writing in the EN that the election would be a referendum on trams?

What hypocrisy!

And as for the Waterfront, I assume Mr Cardownie doesnt live on one of the streets predicted to have 200% increase in traffic once everything is built.

Nor does he have to use any of the "excellent" buses that link the Waterfront with the city centre, sometimes taking nearly an hour as they crawl through narrow side streets, stopping every 100 yards.

I just can't get my mind round any of this.

Perhaps Waterfront Edinburgh should have built some bus stops along their swanky new roads.

That might help.

I await Mr Cardownie doing something about that in his new role. But I doubt it somehow.

Tomorows story will be Aitken compalining about the trams.

#28 Sounds like you picked a great place to live, now you want edinburgh to subsidise a ridiculous tram line, which will not solve anything.

I wonder if the trams will last more than 20 years?

It's curious how this journalist has captured people's interest with this headline "...........uneasy alliance". Just another example of negativity and another attempt to knock the coalition. Keep it up Mr Ferguson, you'll only make it stronger - I hope.

Its already been passed. That is why the work is continuing.

What you need to ask yourself (and what this newspaper seems incapable of) is what is the legality of turning this over to a populist vote (which the reactionary people of edinburgh will OF COURSE vote against).

It has already been passed by parliament.

Another third-rate politician scared of the drivers lobby. Obviously Edinburgh needs congestion charging, so we put it to a referendum, and surprise surprise, the car drivers turn out in force, and the answer's no. Obviously Edinburgh needs trams, but the drivers don't want them, so the same thing will happen again. Let's have a referendum on whether global warming exists, shall we? We can all vote no - problem solved!

#11 But why is a tram depot currently under construction if a decision has'nt been made yet?

'Cos the SE released the cash to fund it and the contract was placed.

We need to know whether the trams are going to be healthier for us.

#36 maybe people dont want them, you dont seem to grasp that. Now there maybe a referendum the tram lovers have changed the argument= if the trams are voted down it not because of cost, disruption, no positive effect... its all scaremongering..

Beware Mr Cardownie, he is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

#12 Super Mario
Expect his views and actions to change significantly over the next few months - it's happened with everyone else.

How true. Some like to forget that MacAskill, as SNP Shadow Transport Minister, hailed the project as visionary when it was announced. He went further and insisted that large sums of funding cash should be found from the public purse to fund it. All a matter of public record. This was, of course, before orders came from Salmond who, at that time, was living the comfortable London lifestyle. MacAskill also supported EARL when it was announced.

The Majority of People are Stupid and Greedy.

Will this referendum amount to a written tramsfer request.

Salmond won't be using the trams.. just the limos.. let us who will use them have them..

Yeah, let's keep burying our head in the sand and go pretend our traffic problems can be solved by easy populist issue-ducking. And then let's put anything to a referendum so we can blame this city's population (who will always vote against anything that costs money) and rather than take responsibility for things as we've been elected to do. Cardownie is a disgrace to the concept of politics.

I just hope we can get all the facts before we spend more money. Can the Scotsman please write more articles on this subject? Its real interesting.

Check this link to Heriot Watt University which outlines how local train network in Edinburgh could be improved -where half the population could walk to a station within 10 minutes.

All at a fraction of the cost of one tram line.

http://www.sbe.hw.ac.uk/research/engineering/transmod/tra...

46 is a masterclass is sarcasm.

36# Ah, the old global warming thing eh?

The UK is responsable for 2% of global warming, Fact!

Scotland is a small part of the UK,Fact!

Scotland is self sufficient in producimhg GREEN power Fact!

The USA, INDIA and CHINA are all increasing global warming,Fact!

Just how will trams help?

Martin2, its good in principle but ,5 Million for each new railstation ? I doubt it.
i

All you people against the scheme had better watch your back, we could conveniently leave some incriminating evidence on a road near you.

More SNP "lets not offend anyone who might have voted for us" nonsense.

Let's not forget that the SNP voted FOR EARL in the last session of parliament...they have ZERO respect for democratic process and yet preach the wonders of self-government.

Does nobody remember the arduous, painful 2 year consultation on the tram lines where every tom dick and harry could command hours of parliamentary committee time to "save the badger". The consultation process is over, modifications were made and the bill passed through parliament with a MASSIVE majority. That's how democracy works- you don't just keep on voting until you get the answer you want.

The SNP are an embarrassment to our nation. Their month in power can be characterised by the single word: "paralysis". It's time to govern.

I just hope its possible to shoot giant mushrooms out the front of the trams and shrink people.

#56 - yes it is.

Don't give in, SNP. Let's not spend close to a billion on something that's unlikely to improve the lives or the transportation of Edinburghians.

#45, Sally Fairweather - "Yeah, let's keep burying our head in the sand and go pretend our traffic problems can be solved by easy populist issue-ducking. And then let's put anything to a referendum so we can blame this city's population (who will always vote against anything that costs money) and rather than take responsibility for things as we've been elected to do."

Very neat, Ms Fairweather - the Fib Dem approach to politics summed up in less than 100 words.

51, not sure about your "Facts", but even if they are true, by your argument those of us lucky enough to live in a small country are entitled to go on polluting as much as we please, on the grounds that percentagewise it isn't as much as larger countries. This is just a recipe for complacency and inaction. Dividing the world up into percentages is crazy - we must all do what we can, stop waiting for others to do it, and not expect others to do what we are not prepared to do ourselves.

#55 - awa and bile yir heed

A referendum sounds like a good idea to me - I know such a democratic process is so alien to the dreamers of this world, but it really lets everyone off the hook.
A simple question to the people of Scotland "should Edinburgh have a tram system, or not?"
And then everyone can get on with their lives.

#63 no it should be should edinburgh have a tram LINE or not?

Wouldn't trust Cardownie as far as I could drop kick a Range Rover

A referendum would prove once and for all that a majority understand that this scheme is daft and should be stopped. However, it would take months to arrange and ensure that the question was not loaded the way the road tolls question was and we need to stop the scheme NOW and start spending the money elsewhere. The SNP gained votes at the expense of the pro tram mafia partly because of their opposition to trams and if the ballot box is to mean anything it should mean immediate cancellation of the one tram line plan.

#55 Wrong. They have only been in power for 2 weeks and 5 days. But, hey, don't let the facts ruin your rant!

62, why is it that when a blogger has something spectacularly stupid to say, he puts it in Broons-style Scots?

#61 what's this got to do with global warming????

We just dont know 68. There must be a reason though.

Can we have a referendum on whether or not we should have a referendum ?

We don't need a referendum. The local council requested government funding for a local infrastructure development. It was granted by the previous (labour) government. Are all projects that involve government funding to be put on hold whilst the new parliament reviews them?

The whole subject of transport in Edinburgh is turning into a farce of national proportions that is putting out a very negative image of business in Scotland - to date everything is negative.

#68

"why is it that when a blogger has something spectacularly stupid to say, he puts it in Broons-style Scots?

Scotsol, probably because he/she is not a Scot - I strongly suspect that some of the posters here are not even from the UK (or are ex-pats) who are just trying on a wind-up.

OOOh ! Peter, whats wrong with Xpats ?

#72 I just love the fact that you have made yourself permanently "very disappointed/concerned". Presumably you never comment on anything you're pleased about? :-)

Thats the problem with Peter, Duncan. I mean Peter above, not Peter Duncan that used to be on Blue Peter.

The problem with this Tram line is its probably going to cost in the end over £1 Billion.

Now we need to know is this value for money?

The pro-tram brigade on here are up in arms as they appear to want trams no matter what as they are going to save the day! Evidence please?

The anti-tram brigade are so negative its amazing.

What we need are facts/or a review and possible referendum.

If not we could waste £1 billion+ on something thats no use - that would be the proper Scottish/British way to do things wouldnt it? Half baked!

Maybe Trams are the way forward but not this Tram line.

Remember we are talking one Tram line that will serve a very small area of Edinburgh for a lot of money - from the outside it does not look value for money and im in favour of integrated transport.

My prediction is that the trams would eventually cost between two and three times the current figure ie between £1.2bn and £1.8bn.

Is everybody quite finished now ?

Good.

See you all here again tomorrow to post the same ill-educated Bile.

Is this what we are going to see for the next four years - constant bickering between the political parties?

Are they going to achieve anything?

Are there not more important issues out there?

80.
It'll be back tomorrow in one form or another.

Lets pray Tesco doesn't decide to plan to switch delivery to the trams during the night after the talks break down.

Yawn!!!

This is the definitive solution to Edinburghs Transport Problems..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4grWustx4Wk

Imagine "bombing" down Lothian road on one of them at 3 in the morning...

84 I was one of those morons as you describe me. Were to start:-

So apart from not cutting congestion.

Not improving transport links to most of the city.

Not having proper engineering / financial plans to cope with the "thats not supposed to be there" scenario.

Ripping up the roads twice.

The tramline will do exactly what it says on the tin!!

So 84 when did you take up comedy then!!

The Scotsman have been doing this story every day since the mesozoic era. Hopefully we will get another one tomorrow. Grrrrroarrrreat!!!!!! What a treat! Besides, I think they haven't covered it in enough depth and we haven't argued on the bloggosphere about it enough.

Tomorrow - input from our Polish community, shocked to discover that their bilingual tram driver community may have to wait for new higher tax bracket jobs, in, "Tramslater: Salmond in Poles Tax attack!"

Isn't the process of democratically electing a government a means of ensuring key policies can be decided by a select group of individuals who have at least some level of expertise in the subjects for which they are responsible for shaping policy on?
I realise that this is sadly not the case here, however I hardly believe that the key to Edinburgh's success in existing as a city that can be taken seriously on the global stage is by taking key decisions on the future of the city's transport infrastructure (and all that goes with it) and landing them squarely in the hands of a large group of ill-informed nimbys by holding a referendum on the issue.

I've had enough of trams before tea! See you crazy bairns tomorrow!

Before I go Swiss Tony 89 by nimbys do you mean the good folk of Edinburgh of course we need folk you are so well educated they can make the important decisions for the peasants "Victory is Mine".

I think a referendum should be held on the issue of whether the Evening News should run at least one story about the trams every single day in perpetuity.

Tony agreed, the miserable anti brigade (are we forming Brigades) are anti just about everything and typical of th edinburgh lot - I'm sure they would be very happy when they arrive and are up and running ?

Did they have the same rants against traffic lights ?

Nothing, just wanted to post my location.

This is to everyone who takes the time to express his or her opinion - isn't democracy great?

But, like the immigration crisis here, in the case of the E-Trams virtually everyone feels strongly one way or the other.

Think about it, whether you're pro tram or anti tram, a referendum settles the issue once and for all.

As of today, no matter what our elected officials decide to do is going to be severely criticised. If the anti tram voters, cast one vote more than the pro tram voters, the project is canceled, and vice versa!

No more letters and e-mails!!!!!!!

This man is a dirty Populist scumThug.

I suggest a competition to guess the next Tram headline from the Britman or Evening Snooze;
" SNP In Shock Tram Admission " The SNP admit they are reviewing the cost of Tram System. Blah Blah...

Trams ,

Trams will tear us apart

Again.

And Again.

And again.

And again.

People still don't seem to get it that it will cost over a Billion to get a tram line, not a tram system, that will push the buses that will still be required for existing diversity to be pushed into the car and delivery vehicle lane.

7 years of roadworks to get a system that can only snarl up the city. SNP got huge support on this issue alone as Labour so out of touch on this and every other traffic scheme they have intoduced has been expensive and fouled up.

#75.

If 'TRAMS' did a U-turn, would they be 'SMART'?

Graham , nah. Youre lying and you know you are.

7 years ? Its a system - its about 7 miles long.

Some of the exagerations by the anti tram lobby take some believing and of course only the anti tram lobby believes them.

They support referendums, and idealy so do I. The problem with them is most people vote for or against usually based upon prejudice and without having been given the full information or not completely understanding the information given (ie.g Media headlines or sound bites.) This way lies mob rule by media or petition.
Despite all their failings and they have many, in the UK version of democracy (and almost everywhere else in ther free world) the electorate (thats what we are) elect (vote) for a party and its manifesto(Yes I know can we trusts them) and we pay the MPs we elected to make informed decisions on our behalf. If we dislike what they have done we kick them out at the next election, or even sooner.
Referendums (in the main) are a 'get out' for politicians not wanting to make the hard decisions and be judged on them by us.
If we are to have the referendum approach lets stop wasting our money on MPs (and ministers ) salaries and let civil servants put their suggestions direct to us and let us all vote on it.

Thinking about why not let us have a referendum on this approach to democracy. We could have referedum on whether we should pay taxes, restore hanging, etc etc. As I said - mob rule.

To start we could have a referendum as to whether we should have a referendum. Apologies we would have to have a referendum as to whether we should have a referendum about having a referendum...............

105:-

You do speak sense. There is a but though .... Trams are not the issue - Trams at a so called £600 million (this is politician speak for £1.2 - £2 Billion) are the issue and not one of the 'opposition' MSP's are taking public opinion into account - instead they are intent on scoring political points and putting common sense over a barrell.

Like the congestion charge that they were trying ram through, which was plainly against the will of those who work and shop in Edinburgh, Trams are a scam and sombody somewhere (who is a friend of some corrupt Labour MSP/councillor who first suggested this claptrap is going to get very rich snouting the public purse ... it is corruption plain and simple.

I never voted SNP in my life and this time is no exception but they are they ONLY party speaking commons sense on this rediculous Tram concept. The fact that the previous council have spent so much money on this idiocy is beyond me - perhaps they were desperately trying to get it to the point of no return so they could get their noses in the trough one last time. Disgusting Labour.

The Congestion in Edinburgh is due to years of traffic mismanagement, putting in Traffic lights where there should be none, and greenways that a clogged with empty buses. Give a few Taxi drivers a free reign on traffic management for 6 months and pay them each £1/2million and you'll sort out your problems and save a fortune.

Labour are still having a hissy fit at losing the election and not getting their way on the trams (which I hope in the name of all that is in the public interest they never do).

When a politicians course is diametrically opposed to the common interest and where the ruling party cannot, without the public help, overturn this lunacy then a referedum is the only way to ensure the will of the people prevails and this waste of public money, resource and time is terminated.

The MSP's who are trying to railroad this silly tram idea through

The Leith - Corstorphine - Airport Tram Link - £600,000,000 - a lot of spondoolies for - an hours cycle ride ? JEEZ cum on - how thick (and lazy) are the pro tramites !

what i can tell you is that its June 20TH before we even BEGIN to find out, then there is a summer recess , expect a decision in SEPTEMBER.

May i wish you all a happy summer , let put this to one side !

CHeers.

106, Voldemort.

All extremely well said.

Especially the part mention the displaced Labour idiots - they really are a bunch of jealous, corrupt, brainless idiots who are still hell-bent on trying to squander OUR MONEY on forcing through this ridiculous tram system.

I still feel there is a major issue which has been ignored up to this point regarding the tram system.

This is the untold damage and turmoil which will be inflicted on scores of local businesses(and the local economy)during the years of construction. Not only are these pro-tram twats willing to play silly games with our money, they are willing to sacrifice peoples livelihoods in the process.

It really does not bear thinking about.

Please Mr Salmond, scrap the trams and save this City from destruction.

#105 truthslueth

"We could have referedum on whether we should pay taxes, restore hanging, etc etc. As I said - mob rule."

Yes, I see mob rule and think .... Switzerland! ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Switzerland

Oh Christ could you imagine ?! Nice idea though.

The tram scheme is dead. Let's move on please!

Voldermont #
The arguments in Edinburgh over the tram scheme are the same as those over most of the tram schemes South of the Border.
Now they have beem built the locals swear by them, swear at them but would not do without them and they prefer them to buses.
PDQ# I am very well aware of the use of referendum in Switzerland.
Because it is used there does not in any way detract from any of the points I made regarding referendum.
I am also aware of their (Switzerlands) use of tram systems in their major cities and elsewhere. Their promotion of electrified rail for passenger and freight, promotion of public transport etc etc.
Let me say I am a motorist.
If the Swiss transport system is a reflection of their use of referendum we should have been using referendum before. The Swiss to adopt sensible measures (even if there may be a measure of pain in the short term).
We here seem to respond to the 'Empty Kettles' of the media (Sorry Scotsman). Hardly a recipe for good decisions.
Sometimes Governments have to Govern. If the SNP would take the decision and give evidence as to why, I may not like the decision (but then I might) but I would respect them for it and kick them out at the next election. Thats democracy. As Chuchill said (I think) Democracy is a poor system of govern,ent but it the BEST we've got.

PS
Read the latest headlines:

#112

you can,t keep a good tram down this debate is to tramlicous to stop I'm off this morning to go tramming.
for breakfast a tramsandwich with fries.
and a drink of tramlins fine ale.

statistics show there are more tramsexuals in Edinburgh than any other similar sized city.
that's why you find some people fighting vehemently
against trams of any sort they are struggling against their own repressed nature come out of the closet Scotland is an inclusive nation for all peoples.

(strike the last part forgot for a brief moment about
the temporary interregnum of the snps)

#109 eaun you obviously taken a very large pomposity pill and ballooned up into massive bore (it's bizarre)

Brother Pele's in the back
Sweet Zina's in the front
Cruising down the freeway
In the hot, hot sun

Suddenly red blue lights
Flash us from behind
Loud voice booming
"Please step out onto the line"

Pele breathes words of comfort
Zina just hides her eyes
Policeman taps his shades
Is that a Chevy 69?

How bizarre
How bizarre
How bizarre

http://www.anysonglyrics.com/lyrics/o/omc/howbizarre.htm

So if this tramline from Leith to the airport is going to save the planet from global warming, just how many buses is it going to take off the road?

How much 'carbon' will it actually prevent from reaching the atmosphere?

113. truthsleuth, South of the Border

Perhaps one thing to keep I mind is that whereas London can spend a £billion on a football stadium, ( Holyrood eat yer heart out)Hampden Park was left in ruins for twenty years, and almost disappeared completely for the want of only £3m.

But then I think London got the whole Docklands Light Rail network for what we intend to spend on taking, I dunno, maybe half a dozen buses off the road.

If the 'T' word is about congestion why not fix the junctons at Sherriffmuir, The Gyle, Barnton and Crewe Toll for a kick off?
A relatively wee city such as Edinburgh has no need to have congestion.

The situation we have in Edinburgh coming into work in the morning and getting home in the evenings has been deliberately engineered by successive councils on political dogma.

I worked for years in the center of London and (to paraphrase Crocodile Dundee)that is what I call congestion.

Edinburgh cooncillors don't like cars (bar their own offical ones naturally) so have done everything short of giving traffic wardens bazookas to get rid of them.

They seem to forget the fact that for every car there is a family of potential voters.

Cars will not be uninvented and even if as I suspect the internal combustion engine is replaced by the hydrogen fuel celled vehicle in the next decades, Edinburgh is going to find itself stuffed, as workers and customers find somewhere else more user friendly, like Livingston, to spend their wages.

One tram line from Newhaven to the airport will change all this, how exactly?