I'm torn. What would British or Canadian governments have said about less than patriotic columns in the newspapers during WWII? Yet, Israelis have complete freedom of the press, putting them yet again on the moral high ground as far as we western observers see it.

Scullion, why torn? Freedom of expression, including freedom of the press, is not just a value "as far as we western observers see it", it is a human right.

This is clearly expressed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, both in the Preamble ("the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people") and more specifically in Article 19:

"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."

Whta this article failed to include is that Hamas is also raiding Libraries to destroy books, smashing Internet cafes, wishes to stop girls attending school, and wants to enforce full Islamic dress codes on woman and all the other trappings of a freedom loving Islamic fundamentalist state.

Look up how the Taliban ran Afganistan if you want to understand their full agenda.

Look at the bright side - Hamas will fit right it at the UN.

We have to get out of there. The UN is disintergrating right before our eyes. It is a useless, bigoted, corrupt mess..

I am confident that the many lefty idiots who post on this site will soon be overwhelming the Scotsman's servers as they protest to protest this clear threat to freedom of speech and freedom of the press by terrorists - which they hold so dear? Or - maybe not? We'll soon see, won't we?

smashing libraries
Closing internet cafes
making women dress in bags
intimidating journalists
forcing one eyed narrow dogma upon school kids
Bombing
shooting
threatening to bomb/shot/rocket/knife/sword/hatchet anyone who disagrees.

Well how does British, American, Australian/Spanish troops in Iraq/Afganistan make people do that, they were at it before we went in, only a reactionary dictator kept them in check, we liberated them and let loose this evil who were unable to be kept in check by the domestic civil authorities or the religous authorities, some of whom must be said are stirring it up themselves. If we leave the people least able to look after themselves will be extinguished as will properly expressed dissent. Do we want that in our own country, I for one don't so everyone continue to vent your spleen, but remember if we let the perpetrators of wholesale slaughter of innocent and not so innocent people away with it we will find it on our doorstep as we have already seen on a small scale.

Hamas quit happy to be democratic while its codemnation for Israel, different story when hamas is condemned! only happy about democracy when it suits their agenda, wake up people!

Order,
You bring up a good point. That the Pals elected Hamas is their right, but Hamas is NOT a Democratic govenment.

A democratic government is one that has a peaceful transition of power. That means that agreements and treaties signed by the governement are still in effect regardless of who occcupies the office. Hamas has stated that all past agreements with Israel are null and void (except they still want the parts of the agreements that give them money)

A democratic government has a monopoly on power. Hamas has stated that it will do nothing to prevent terrorists groups in its territory from launching attacks on Israel.

Hamas was elected democratically, but like the Nazis, it is now a Coup by Election, and that has consequences.

Hamas was, is, and will remain a Terrorist Organisation. As it is becoming clear even to the Palestinian people, it is not concerned with the wellbeing of the Palestinian people. Its main objective is the destruction of Israel, the destruction of western society and democratic values, as fits with the agenda of the radical islamist Ayatollahs of Iran.

Only the removal of Hamas, will bring peace to the suffering Palestinian people who have been repeatedly failed by their own leadership (Fatah and Hamas), as well as their "Arab Brothers" who are the root cause of their problem in the first place!

Abu Abeida, head of the Palestinian militia in another guise, with another tongue, in another uniform, sounds pretty much like a right wing US hawk talking about the US's war in Iraq.

"He said the rockets enabled the Israelis to cast Palestinian resistance as terrorism and turn international public opinion against the Palestinians."

Good point if you're relying on the international community for help. However since the international community, represented by the UN, is a toothless ball-less, gutless entity, the Palestinians are pretty much on their own, as they have been for... at least 40 years.

Robin Bather #12

"Abu Abeida, head of the Palestinian militia in another guise, with another tongue, in another uniform, sounds pretty much like a right wing US hawk talking about the US's war in Iraq."

What????!!! That comment is just so stupid to be beyond belief. Which "right wing US hawk" have you heard implying execution for those who criticise the war in Iraq?

#12..Robin Bather..You are insane!! Don't know one "right wing hawk" who says execute those who criticize the war in Iraq..
I have got to stand behind OliverF on this one...never was such a stupid comment made.

#15. Lynne, USA - "never was such a stupid comment made" - You are too modest. What was that one about nuking London?

"The time has come for the strange voices and the yellow media to stop stabbing the resistence in the back and go back to the right way. If not, history and the people will not have mercy on any who collude with the enemy against their religion, people and nation."

Oliver and Lynne want to interpret this as threats of execution. I didn't.
Have you never heard on Fox News these right wing US hawks blustering about "the left wing media", "the third columnists" and anyone else who dares to raise their voices against their righteous war against the never discovered WMD in Iraq.
Have you ever pondered on what happens to US citizans who "collude with the enemy" during armed struggle? Hasn't the US had a long history of witch hunts against perceived enemies of the state (McCarthyism, Kent State etc.)?

Upon reflection I agree that perhaps I should have directed my criticism more precisely. I'll be more careful next time.

Signed:
An insane person, stupid beyond belief.

#17--Robin Bather--""have you ever pondered on what happens to US citizans who "collude with the enemy" during armed struggle?""..

no!!...to know they are either (1) dead! (2) locked up & interrogated @GITMO......is a good thing........

I have come across a nice little innocuous publication by the islamic institute of Western Australia, its reason for publication is to advise the followers of Islam on how to make australia muslim, it is a long term plan and involves the following methods,

Produce more children than the other groups, it behoves muslim women to produce babies and be in a state of pregnancy for their child bearing days, it is their duty apparently
Marry western men and bring children form these marriages up in the muslim faith thereby diluting the western population
Denounce all the western attempts at peace in the middle east to stoke up anti western feeling and weaken resolve amongst westerners
Claim that australia was settled first by people who were muslims or thinking like muslims before their prophet arrived to tell them who they were, therefore Australia is a muslim land and once muslim always muslim.

it goes on, this phamphlet is available at islamic schools and other places where children gather.

So I am paranoid They have a plan to take over the world, you betcha they do, if we do not stand up for and support our way of life there will be nothing left to stand up for and you can all look forward to reading the koran and only the koran. All other books will have been banished burnt or otherwise destroyed.

Black and White Triumph..I have been saying the same thing for months on end. This long term plan
has been laughed at by many here.
I have great respect for your PM when he tells these people there will be one law in Australia, and that is Australian law. If they want Shria law they should leave Australia. They must assimilate in any society they move to.
The islamists figure that sooner or later (in about 50 years) they will have the votes to make Australia muslim.
But it is not only your country. England, Spain and France seem like lost causes to this, and if they do not wake up soon...it will be far too late.
And they didn't have to fire a shot!!

20. Lynne

If you are right, and we are going to overrun with demographic change, then there is an easy solution.

Go and make more babies instead of writing rubbish on these boards.

Make love not war!

bill1

You have the cheek to call Lynne writing rubbish! Truth hurts, that's why!

#19, 20-----i agree, but aren't we-who believe this, just whistling in the wind?....not enough people around the globe are paying attention, i fear....
i suppose when their 'wake-up-call' comes, they'll blame *Bush/Blair*.........

Sandy

I think if we put quotas on foreigners coming into the United States, if we cut off welfare for aliens, make sure that Social Security is only for contributing citizens, we could help secure our country. Not sure how it works for the other countries...but we have to set up limits. We have to make sure our representatives know how we feel. That Medicaid, and Medicale are for citizens, not for foreigners to take advantage. If there is to be reduction of tuitions at colleges, they should go to people who deserve it and are here legally. The borders have to be closed. We can't allow this to happen any more.
The people that want to run from their homelands..can find other countries to seek refuge..our shores are teaming, and the tax payers are bearing the brunt.

bill1 I am right..

25. Lynne

OK then we'll all have to get to it. Done my bit with almost a dozen descendants!

To Dragomir:
Good point? How about if I start sending rockets into your house, will you then call it terrorism? If sending rockets into residential neighborhoods of people who have not attacked you is not terrorism, then the word is meaningless.

In addition, the UN gave the Arabs 100% of West Bank and 100% of Gaza and 100% of ALL of Jerusalem; but the Arabs turned it all down. The Arabs refused this great offer from the UN years ago in favor of murdering Jews.

It is not the UN who has turned its back on the Arabs it is the Arabs who have turned their back on the UN. Actually it is the Arabs who have turned their back on reality, morality, and civility many decades ago.

solitarius,

You are of course right about terrorism and about Palestinian Arabs repeatedly favoring a continuation of the conflict over peaceful compromise that would have put much of Eretz Yisrael/Palestine under their sovereignty.

Just a small but very significant correction:

The original 1947 UN partition plan assigned most, but not quite all, of what we today call the West Bank, to the proposed Arab state. A bit of what later became known as the West Bank would have been in the Jewish State, and some land that today is on the Israeli side of the Green Line would have been in the Arab state.

More importantly, the UN did not give any of Jerusalem to the Arabs -- or to the Jews. According ot the aborted partition plan, Jerusalem and some surrounding areas (including Bethlehem, also) was to be in an international zone, not part of either the Jewish or the Arab states.

#27, Sorry to let you know about this tiny fact but Israel is the invading-occuping power in Palestine, so this makes the Palestinians a "resistance" group, which gives them the right to defend themselves against the barbaric invaders. Some Israelis died? well, they should know they are aiding an occupation (one of the longest in modern history) which opressing a large number of people, and take some responsibility for it or else get out of the warzone. Simple.

#29
Dragon - what lies you spew.
Just because Arabs steal land and then claim it as their own does not make it so.

Your Arab friends were already given 80% of the Jewish Homeland. Why should they be able to murder just so they can steal more land?

Now the Kurds too are learning lessons from the Jews and demanding you Arabs get out of their lands.
Will you murder their children too to keep what you have stolen?

Dragomir

Below is my comment from the other thread which you might have missed out.

Every time when words like “Israel” or “Jews” pop out in Scotsman fora, the Terrorist apologists would waste no time making appearance and spout out the same garbage - old, boring, stale “stolen lands” issue! As usual, start looking for excuses to cause trouble while the pro-Israeli posters press the button in defence.

These terrorist apologists are like vultures waiting patiently at the edge of the tree and when they see the word “Israel” or “Jews”, they shoot flying down at once fast and peck hungrily at it!!!

The 1947 UN Partition Plan led to the establishment of a Jewish state, Israel. The founding of Israel on May 14, 1948 was recognized by UN. In short, it was UN who created Israel. After UN voted to give Israel statehood in 1948, Jordan and six other Arab countries invaded the reborn Jewish homeland with an aim to pushing the Jews into the sea - genocide. Israel WON the war. The penalty for waging war and losing – Egypt lost Gaza, Jordan lost West Bank and Syria lost Golan Heights to the Israel.

If the Palestinian Authority is concerned of Israeli troops intruding into Gaza, then the only sensible solution for them is to STOP --- engaging in criminal activities, firing rockets and suicide bombing. It’s as simple as that. It’s of no use complaining with no actions taken to correct the situation of militants terrorizing and endangering the security of Israel and civilians.

All whatever the Palestinian factions know is killing and believe violence as the only ways to solve their problems!! See how they have also turned to killings amongst themselves: Fatah versus Hamas!

27. solitarius, 30. Tikun, 31. P.K

Well said.