#89, Singer.

With respect, the PF conference is for Pagans, as is the Beltane Fire Festival. People from othr paths may attend if they are interested, but we certainly do not force our beliefs on anyone. We are not evangelistic.
Am I correct though to assume that the "united, spiritually uplifting society" you would like to see would be a Christian one? Is that not thrusting your beliefs down others throats?

#53. S.Beaton, St Cyrus
What can I say? A random read of the posts before and after yours will inform you that any "Second Enlightenment" is, sadly, some distance away when it has so much ingrained rabid fundamentalism to contest.

(St Cyrus eh? Not so far distant from my beginnings.)

I guess the difference is that the pagans aren't being bigoted against a particular group of people. #131...you've got some issues there dude. You should definitely get out more (no pun intended) As for the photo of the pagan ceremony...damn, that looks like fun. Where do I join?

Well, it's all mythology, whether ancient or modern. But when it comes to teaching hate, it's hard to beat the "Christians." Too bad they go for sin, guilt, suffering, and death rather than Christ's teachings, such as they are, having been "edited" over centuries until who knows what really went down. For instance, George Washington never cut down a cherry tree or threw a coin across the Potomac although it's in school books (sorry about the chauvinism, but I don't know you folks' similar mythologies). At least pagans don't encourage destruction of the planet out of sheer hubris.

#9, Smith, you are deluded. China and India may become the future sources of imperial exlpoitation but they will NEVER be economic super powers because their numbers continue to completely outstrip the ability of ANY economy to support them. Once they have raped the entire planet to fuel thier hungry mouths and there is nothing left to steal from they will simply start dropping off from starvation and thirst while swimming in thier own feces and urine. The fact remains that the only nations that can become superpowers are those that can control thier breeding, distribute weath adquately and conduct themselves in a sane rational manner. There are presently maybe barely a handfull of people on planet earth existing today who have that capacity. And they will more than likely die at the hands of the burgeoning insane mass whose religions of expansion will kill off the entire human race one day.

#131 my post was perhaps rather poorly rebutting 120's complaint that homosexuals are having their sexual orientation 'promoted' on tv. I was not intending to criticise the process of marriage.

The point I was trying to make is that if any sexual orientation is being promoted, it is the Heterosexual orientation which is absolutely fine by me. Long may that continue, so long as it is duly acknowledged that it is not only homosexuals who are doing the 'flaunting'.

Homosexuals are outnumbered at least 10 to 1, so I hardly think the occasional same sex kiss on tv is going to cut significantly into the 6.5 billion, and growing, world population. All television is trying to do in this regard is to be more inclusive and accurately portray the postiive roles that many homosexuals play in society, and in the process to lay to rest many inaccurate and exaggerated stereotypes.

Paragraph 5 makes me think you not be aware of the disproportionate level of crimes of gang violence, including a large number of unsolved murders against people specifically because of their perceived homosexual orientation.

An Australian friend of mine (heterosexual) five years ago lost his life as the result of a 'poofter bashing' by a group of 15 young men who mistook him for a homosexual because he was walking down the street with his hand on the shoulder of his brother (also heterosexual), who was also bashed to within an inch of his life, but survived. The youths responsible were never caught.

As long as the pagans respect human rights, they are fully entitled to their religious practices. Christians should read that masterful work of meticulous scholarship: "The Life of Jesus" by Marcello Craveri, and follow that up by reading about the recent Tribunal of Viterbo, involving Luigi Cascioli. I guarantee they're in for a string of amazing surprises! But oops, I forgot! Of course we're supposed to read their works but NOT vice versa. For a religion that's supposed to be all about truth, it's amazing how Christians squeal when you start digging out the truth. Once I was dragged to a church service in Australia at which this priest started preaching against homosexuals to an approving congregation: disgusting - just a step away from Nazism. There is known to be only one town in the whole of Europe in which Christians did not blame Jews for the Black Death & kill them in 1347-1351, often "prophylactically". Commonest method was burning them alive. And before setting off, Crusaders would round up the local Jewish population and kill them. The Pope didn't bat an eyelid. And who are we to doubt that these were True Christians, charged with zeal and faith? Right now Christian missionaries are busy killing native cultures across the globe, stripping them off their music, songs, and history in favour of a sterile religion based on little more than myth.

The basic premise of Wicca, and most (yes, modern) pagan beliefs is "If it harms none, do what you will." Many people misinterpret this to be narcissistic and immoral, when in fact it goes far beyond the Judeo/Christian golden rule/ten commandments. None truly means none - and not just in the here and now, but tomorrow and next year. Anyone trying to live their life by this rule is forced to think of the consequences of all their actions. We Wiccans also believe in that what we do to others will be revisted upon us threefold. Call it superstititous nonsense, tell me I must be an ignorant, unfulfilled stupid person - whatever makes you feel happy. I will not ridicule another's beliefs, but I will not stand by and ignore the misery that misogynistic bigots inflict on others. I live my life by standards that I believe make the world a better place... Can you say the same? Or do you just take up oxygen and space?

116. TREV
I hope I said SOME Christians ... anyway I think the rule is 'you can't argue a negative from a silence, only from a repeal'. New Testament overturns dietary laws quite clearly, but also clearly indicates that same gender sexual contact is 'unnatural' therefore no repeal of that one. So the bacon butties is a bit of a red herring (if you're prone to swallowing them I'm sure it's OK)
However I know of some Jewish believers in Jesus for whom Kashrut is still an issue.

123. Kramek
Man, I don't know what 'church' you're attending but your rendering of Matt 19:12 is very loose. I would recommend interpreting Scripture through Scripture (e.g. Rom 1:26-27) to arrive at a more cohesive conclusion.

"The Old Testament is a pack of lies and disinformation." - sorry can't reconcile that to 2 Tim 3:16 or Jesus upholding the Tanakh in Matt 5:17

My own view is that Christians should tackle all aspects of human sexuality and find paths of redemptions and not just target 'pink sin'. Heterosexual sin does a lot of damage particularly to innocent children.

If anyone thinks I'm preaching - sorry I didn't mean to.

15. nell from falkirk / 8:34am 27 May 2007
SAYS
"Had the Christian Union wished to run an event which was in any sense positive, I'm sure they would have been given he green light. What was stopped was an event against another group of people."

The whole point of "freedom of speech" is that you allow people to say things you DISAGREE with, as fellow librarian John Broom (RIP) said - for instance he would allow people to make death threats "but not of course to carry them out."

Following your logic in "What was stopped was an event against another group of people."
you would forbid a demonstration against the BNP / National Front.

you would be close to condemning attempts to cure malaria,
just as you are condemning the Christian Union for pointing out that homosexual ACTS are life-threatening.
you would be close to condemning attempts to cure smokers.

OK once a smoker one is never really CURED, I had my last cigarette in December 1968 (and am still grateful to the then girlfriend who helped me stop) but still dream once or twice a year that I am smoking - am I glad when I wake up !!!

I can't for the life of me see what the fuss is all about.

Homosexuality does not offend me. Homosexual activity if not too blatant does not offend me either but I do get offended when the Religious 'Do=Gooders' parade up and down outside my brothers house because his daughter is a scrub nurse in a clinic that performs abortions!!
Specially when some of the acolytes of a certain Christian sect do use the service offered by the clinic.
As for the PAGANS and benighted(?) heathens, well, they are welcome to express their beliefs and practices as long as they do not perform them right on my doorstep. And if they can prove their opinions with a water tight thesis I might even think of joining them!!

Homosexual acts are only life-threatening when there is some moronic gay-bashing homophobic imbecile around. Homosexual sex is no more life-threatening than unprotected heterosexual sex. Considering the huge jump in syphilis/chlamydia and other STDs among the heterosexual youth in western culture, obviously tis message is not getting through, and in fact, is exacerbated by ignorance and intolerance that suggests that HIV/Aids is a "gay disease."

149 - I think you'll find that there are "exclusions" to freedom of speech and one is the incitement of hatred, defamatory speeches, speeches or actions intending to cause riot or action against certain sections of society.

The Christian Union did not wish to "debate" homosexuality rather they intended to run a course to attempt to convert others to the "wrongs of homosexuality" as they saw it. Edinburgh University were completely correct, and within their rights, to refuse to allow that to take place on their premises. Holding individual "personal" views is different from attempting to stamp them over other people.

Against my "freedom of speech" is as tired an argument as "against my human rights". Read about your "human responsibilities" which are meant to run alongside the rest. It makes for a much more pleasant, tolerant life for the rest of us.

I am Pagan and come from a Christian background so over the years I have met a wide diversity of people. Everyone has a right to their own veiwpoint and to follow their own path wether that be spiritual or not. What I cannot abide is the intolerance of one person to another. What the Christian Union wanted to do was wrong. Having a go at another human being for what they beleive in is wrong. There are many Christian people and Pagans who are appalled at the state that our world has become, the greed the waste and the violence.
A person's own sexuality has nothing to do with it. If people were more tolerant about others we would live in a more peaceable world.
God, Gods and Goddess religions have nothing to do with how we behave and it is about time that people started taking resposibility for their own actions and stop blaming religion for all the ills of the world that mankind has created. I beleive in a fair and just and kind society for us all.
Blessed Be

Does anyone know if there is a "lay line" running through Calton Hill and Rosslyn? This could be a memorable Beltane if the unique* energy of the resting place of the Grail were to become involved.
*unique - adj., fr. Latin uno + equus

Sorry, forgot where I was there for a moment!

Freedom of speech - we've never had it!
• Perjury
• Libel
• Treason
All with severe punishments at law.

Anyone who wants unfettered freedom of speech with no exceptions would have to accept allegations of ANY kind being published about them in the newspapers, and incriminating lies told about them to a court of law with no legal redress and no right to sue for compensation.

151. Catharine, Winnipeg, Canada / 9:17pm 27 May 2007 claims that
Homosexual acts are only life-threatening when there is some moronic gay-bashing homophobic imbecile around. Homosexual sex is no more life-threatening than unprotected heterosexual sex.
However, this is not a view shared by the United States Food and Drug Administration, as they reiterated a few days ago (May 23, 2007)

May I suggest that you click on
http://www.fda.gov/cber/faq/msmdonor.htm

to read the full text of “FDA Policy on Blood Donations from Men Who Have Sex with Other Men”:

You could also look at
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS01B1

PS Far from being a "gaybasher" I once (as a good pacifist) interposed my body to prevent a male who had just been knocked to the ground from getting a kicking.

I must also refute the charge of "imbecile" as I got scores of 99, 98, 97 out of 100 in the old "Intelligence Test." Mind you, we had had plenty of practice in seeing how the examiners mind worked, e.g. in the "which is the odd one out"

…continued from #158 they would also have to accept teachers using their freedom of speech to swear at their children and promote whatever ideologies they liked, including an incitement to overthrow the state, to commit crime, to riot, promote commercial products…

I'm all for freedom of speech provided that it doesn't take away MY freedom of speech.

no.149 That is what a condom is for!!! hetrosexuality is perfectly capable of spreading aids as is homosexuality so I think your argument is dead in the water here. As I have already said it is a person's own responsibility to not harm another human being. I am sorry but peole who have fundamental beleifs have caused more harm to society than anyone else. The majority of people in this world have a tolerant veiwpoint to other people but when they get into a crowd they seem to take on a crowd mentality, which I think can be really dangerous.
Lets stop being sheep for a moment and start to think with our hearts and minds.
If the your brother was homosexual, your sister was Moslem, your father was Christian and your Mother was Pagan and had a big nose, pardon the pun! I am Pagan,would you love them any the less.
I dont' think so.
Brightest blessings
Like someone recently said to me.
May you walk in Beauty.

#161. sprite That was fantastic!

May you walk in beauty also!

If all the church goers just opened there eyes to see they already are worshiping the pagan religion, they worship the summer solstice at Christmas its not the birth of Jesus but the birth of nimrod every holiday including Easter is pagan and they use your energy to channel so its nothing new they are just coming out in the open

#163 I gave three examples where we have accepted curtailments to our freedom of speech in order to illustrate that we don't really have total freedom of speech. This was in response to the allegation (#66, 119, 149, 152) that the Christian Union were being denied freedom of speech at the university.

If you really need it spelt out, there are other curtailments of which I am sure you must be aware including Racial and Homosexual Vilification, i.e. incitement to hatred/violence.

Religious schools have long maintained their right to dismiss a teacher whose teaching style does not embrace the ethos of the school. Likewise, given that the ethos of the Edinburgh University is opposed to illegal discrimination and anything that is likely to incite it, it may well be that they are within their rights to enforce this.

Moreover, it seems to have been overlooked that the university did ultimately allow the anti-homosexual talk to go ahead with modified publicity, after acquiescing to protests from the Christian Union.

Have to tell you, as a Pagan, much of the sensationalist reporting of the Scotland on Sunday, and the hysterics of the Christian Union are sadly misplaced. Most of you probably work with, or have spoken with Pagans and were none-the-wiser. We're no different to everyone else. We just believe different things. *shrug*

The Conference has taken place for many years now, and has gone unnnoticed by the press and others: quite rightly, it's low-key, just people who believe the same things getting together.

No naked orgies, no sacrifices, no plottings. Nobody exluded who doesn't have an interest in getting on with their fellow human being.

A social gathering.

Not really the stuff of the red-tops is it?

Sad that there are so many people who take SUCH an interest in others' lives that they can't simply allow them to get on with it.

No matter what the creed or sexuality.

#129) How gullable are we! WHY? Because the
bible tells me so! A man born of woman
wrote the bible. Abraham the Isrealite to
whom was like their top general, had this
dream, he called "a prophecy or vision" with
this one god concept. Tithing 10% of a
persons wealth was at one time disspenced
to a multiple group of Idols or commonly
called pagan gods. In those ancient times
of worship, the Isrealites indeed were idol
worshippers of their many gods. Abraham
said now just one god to worship, pray and
make blood sacrifice too; what with at least
over seven thousand soldiers loyal to him
only, and who would be so stupid to
disagree with him with his new ideas. He
was "The Man". And they didn't have to
invent or build no stinkin new god figure.
Long hair and white beard as we see this
man invented deity; more than likely was
what old Abraham may have well looked
like in appearance. Remember the first
five books of the old testament were written
by Moses; genesis. I mean really, the
affirmament, parting waters, bugs, and
pestulance and famine and murder, oh,
did I forget ten laws actually were about
110 laws or rules; we only know about the
most common ones, the first ten.
Yausa Yausa Yausa. Step right up to the
pearly gates; ugh seven of them I believe;
I don't mean necessarily that I believe.
Could be maybe 10 gates; don't really
know for sure...Probably all lies anyway!

#168 certainly, and as I already said, perhaps after you prepared 168, following representations from the CU, the university permitted the talk to proceed.

Although students at the university are adults, they are young adults, recently left home and therefore highly emotionally vulnerable. Every year there are suicides, including young students leaping to their death from student accommodation buildings and the Salisbury Crags for all manner of reasons, ranging from parental pressure to succeed, to failed relationships to self hatred stemming from societal, familial and religious rejection of their sexual orientation.

The university has above all a duty of care to its students. They are right to be concerned when a group comes advertising an event implicitly condemning a person's innate homosexual orientation. Teenagers of homosexual orientation already face the difficulties most teenagers face, but are ofentimes denied access to the four traditional channels of support:
• peer group
• family
• church
• school
- all of whom may condemn homosexuality and ostracise the young person.

161. sprite, Scotland / 10:18pm 27 May 2007
no.149 That is what a condom is for!!! hetrosexuality is perfectly capable of spreading aids as is homosexuality so I think your argument is dead in the water here.
================
Oh dear, do you really think that the United States Food and Drug Administration doesn’t know about condoms?
And do you really believe that condoms offer real protection against HIV/ AIDS? They don’t even offer total protection against pregnancy, and HIV virus is much smaller than a sperm, so much more likely to get through faults in a condom.

The only strategy which is really and totally efficient against HIV is abstinence or fidelity in sexual relations within a monogamous marriage, according to the formula of the Centers for Disease Control of Atlanta (USA):
"Abstinence or sexual intercourse with one mutually faithful uninfected partner are the only totally effective prevention strategies."

Why not look at GRAZIOLI, A.. Abstinence and fidelity are the only fully effective means of prevention, British Medical Journal 1996, 312 (7044). p. 1478.

N. Hearst et S.B. Hulley (1988) [100], in a study for the Californian Center for AIDS Prevention, using data for the whole of the U.S.A. which came from different sources (recruits at the time of their induction into the Army, and data from the Centers for Disease Control of Atlanta for the female prostitutes), gave the condom a failure rate of 10% per year, identical to its failure rate as a contraceptive.
===========
Time for bed so I'll close now.

Mind you, they did say that persistent hecklers at the old Catholic Evidence Guild usually ended up as Catholics, so perhaps the same could apply here.

Wow! Is this Pagan group anywhere in North America? I would love to be a part of such a fantastic Beltane celebration. My fellow Pagans here are too tame for my tastes. Another reason to move out of the United States of America.

The christian fascists here in America, headed by the Dominionists, keep crying the same old lame excuse of "freedom of speech" and say that they are being discriminated against whenever they are not allowed to preach their hatred in some parts of the United States as they continue to make laws that take away others' Constitutional rights and human rights in many states.

There have been many beatings, gang-rapes and murders of gays, lesbians and transgenders across my country directly linked to these so-called christian groups practicing their hate speech unchallenged. I hope that the University of Edinburgh does not give in to this one group's false charges of discrimination, but instead exposes their lies and hypocrisy.

Christians are not homophobic - i.e. they're not AFRAID of people who countenance same-sex relations. They just believe that to put this orientation into practice is unbiblical and therefore against the mind of will of God who created our race. If homosexuality were the order of the day, our race would become extinct within the next 100 years. It's simply unnatural, an aberration of how things were meant to be. On the other hand, Jesus showed love to all, and wants to reconcile all to God, homosexuals, heterosexuals, bisexuals, asexuals, etc etc.........

#173 I am starting to think you simply want to have the last word!

Notwithstanding the unquestionable duty of a university to permit its students to be freely exposed to all ideas no matter how challenging or disturbing, I believe the university does have, and moreover has demonstrated a concomitant duty of care to its students.

It is not Either/Or, there is a balance to be struck, and I for one am happy to allow for maturity to progress throughout the three years inside university walls.

Surely you would not deny a place in the university to a brilliant student merely because at the age of 18, they were not fully matured?

170 - totally agree with you.

173 - may suicide never visit your family, what arrogance to think you sit on such a pedestal, let's just drown the weak ones at birth and be done with it. Universities discuss, they do not run courses inciting hatred and intolerance. You seem to miss that point repeatedly.

The thread has gone way off course.
This was about Paganism, right? Naked chicks covered in woad, dancing around a bonfire... add a cool ale and it just doesn't get any better than that o' an evening...

#178 - you've been watching the Wicker Man too much methinks...

So, how did we get from Paganism to homophobia and the excretion of the usual gay bashers from their orifices?

173, you are an arrogant humdinger of a human..how dare YOU say who lacks the maturity to be an University student. So the people who have endured harrassment, victimisation and bullying in their lives because of their sexuality, should stand back while rabid (and some of them are sweetie) Christians inform them that they are wrong/sick/perverted or going to hell? Where is your Christian compassion?, or is that only reserved for those you feel more worthy?, say black people experiencing racism?

Students can complain to the police if they feel that someone is spreading homophobia mate and that is exactly what I would advise them to do if any Christian nutters harrass them in any way. "Run a course to convert others"...aye might as well take your brains out of your nut and run them under the tap..

I see Martha in the USA is coming out with her usual smug gabblings about Paganism. Listen dear your god is just as relevant as any other gods/godesses on the planet, they are all invented by mankind. New religions, cults and faiths are appearing constantly - Paganism is one of the earliest so you can take your sneer and shove it where there aint no Christian sun shining.

Pagan gods/godesses and idols represent life - the elements - the fundamentals of human life, without which we would not survive, most Pagans are deeply spiritual people who do not buy into the Christian blarney or the Catholic fire and brimstone. When you worship at your particular idol good for you if you believe the devil will drag you right down to the blazing fire for being a 'bad' human. But do not sneer at any Pagan who worships the sun because it gives us life.

More power to the pentacle!

#174 "Christians are not homophobic - i.e. they're not AFRAID of people who countenance same-sex relations. "

Well in a way they are. They refuse to believe Homosexual people are born that way, and what baffles me, refuse to believe God actually made them that way, Perhaps to teach us to be tollerant of each other.
Next point "If homosexuality were the order of the day, our race would become extinct within the next 100 years." That is perhaps true, but so....

First that again assumes choice. Not being born that way. And I truly believe God made them that way regardless of what people who desire fear and worse seem to want to think it is really sad. We should cherish each other. Does not God have the power to end it all? Do you think God would allow the end of the Human race? If God would then it is time Yes. Otherwise it will continue, regardles of whether Homosexuals exsist or not. Have faith

And why are so many people spending all their time with their minds in the gutter. With the exception of when I am with my special someone. I do not think about sex, And certainly not someone elses, that is none of my business.
Blessings to all

I am a South African living in Scotland. I went to a Catholic school in South Africa, was very involved in Christainity and am now Wiccan. My only comment is one of disappointment.

I began to question Christianity when my ex-husband began beating up on me. We used to sit in church on Sunday where him and his family would sing God's praises, and then go home and get battered. I realise that this was an isolated incident, but I began a quest, trying to understand all religions. I came to the conclusion that all main stream religions preach love and acceptance, but few actually practise this. The pagan belief system does not condemn other belief systems, and this rang true for me. This is what Jesus preached - acceptance and humility.

It occurs to me that followers do not actually practise the laws as preached by their religious leaders. Instead they interpret these beliefs as they will.

If you look back through history, people have been persecuted for whichever their belief system was, if it did not suit the "powers that be" unsuitable. It is interesting to look at the history of England and the Tudors in particular. When Henry the 8th's daughter, Mary Tudor came to the throne, Protestants were burned for heresy, when Elizabeth came to the throne, roles were reversed, and suddenly, within a couple of years, Catholics were burned for the same....fast forward to modern days and the radical Islamic groups...same story - how long must this go on?

Pagan belief is accepting of all people from all religious beliefs - they believe in a live and let live policy. I like this, as I believe that God is a loving God, and Jesus taught tolerance and love. The only place I find this currently is in the pagan environment.

If every person, from every belief system allowed God to be responsible for the final judgement of each person (as it say in the bible, and the rest of the religious texts), we could all accept each other and live in harmo

As people keep pointing out, most of the religions that fall under the Pagan umbrella are not what the ancients did. As far as animal sacrifice, most religions did this, and many of them practiced human sacrifice. Therefore it doesn't matter whether of not the ancients made sacrifices, modern Pagans don't.

And there is a world of difference between having a ritual to celebrate the Earth and Seasons, and having a meeting denigrating another group of people.

Re: 155; I must suppose that either nobody knows if there is a lay line running through Calton Hill and Roslyn Chapel, or you are all too busy beating the hell out of one another. I'd say the pagans are away ahead of the christians in today's main bout.

#183 there is no misinterpretation in my posting at 176. I do not resile from my concerns about the duty of care of any academic institution towards its constituency and I do not see any point in rejecting applications from young students in case they might turn out to lack maturity and suicide thereafter.

University approval is required for any course outside its own Colleges if they are perceived as being connected with the university, for example the Office of Lifelong Learning courses for adults. The Christian Union was offering its ‘course’ on the university campus.

Courses being offered by the university within its precincts are carefully vetted by the Validation Board so as ensure that the content is of sufficient rigour and the reputation of the university will not be damaged. The CU course appears to have fallen short of these requirements, hence the university’s insistence on the disclaimer on their publicity.

It is not appropriate for any interest groups to push their personal agenda under the apparent imprimatur of authority of courses offered at the University of Edinburgh. The same would apply exactly if a gay activist group were to offer a comparable course showing how you could be converted into a homosexual.

In a university run course on divinity, it would be appropriate to discuss all the conflicting data from myriad sources and reach one's own conclusions regarding homosexuality, but the Christian Union had one agenda in its 'course' and that was to eliminate homosexuality.

If it were perceived that the University of Edinburgh was offering a course showing how to cure homosexuals from their sin, it would make them the laughing stock of acadaemia.

#182 sorry to say pagan is the worst religion out there so if you think bad of the rest of them you should study the pagans where and why it began they were the ones that used Jesus as a sacrifice at Easter

Hello All,

Ah yes, "pleasant, understanding, tolerant" Paganism: Druidism as an example.

I take it none of your folks bother actually reading any history concerning Pagan religions?

Ever heard of the Wicker Basket Treatment, so hated by the Romans-who were Pagans themselves?

Druids, both on Great Britain and on the Continent, burned people alive in large wicker baskets-which was part and parcel of some of their worship practices.

The Roman Pagans didn't care one whit about what kind of religion other Pagans practiced-so long as it DIDN'T involve Human Sacrifice (which the Romans considered to be an utterly barbarous act).

Human Sacrifice was the primary reason why Julius Caesar and his successors had such a tenacious hatred of Druidism.

Proving my point is quite straight-forward: one need but take a look at the various Pagan Religions allowed to flourish in Rome herself, as proof.

Middle Eastern Religons were acceptable and practiced in Rome, Greek Paganism accepted and practiced, even African religions were allowable-ALL of them were allowable, sans those which had as part and parcel of their worship practices, Human Sacrifice.

Druidism was bloody and that is historic fact, not mere personal opinion.

On a biblical note, again objectively, take the time to read what the texts actually state: homosexuality IS condemned in the Bible: thus it has NOTHING to do with mere personal opinion-mine or anyone else's.

Get honest people and stop being so politically correct.

Cheers from the Rockies.

Gee as a Wiccan I really hate to disappoint all the more imaginative types.

Lets see I have been an Alexandrian Tradition for 22+ and met hundreds of Wiccans and have not seen a single orgy yet.

Another disappointment, most Wiccans prefer to stay in their clothes or wear robes. Never heard of any Wiccan sacrificing anything. Oh dear no blood and gore like in the movies. [Grin]

All of this seems to come from the heated imagination of those outside of Wicca. At least we get to see what they focus their minds on.

By the way I know of another group that was accused of exactly the same thing, orgies, child sacrifice. Christians. Accused by the Romans, Roman Pagans I gather.

So it is sort of a traditional charge that people have been making against the other religion all over the place through the centuries or even though thousands of years. Comes under the term of propaganda.

As for what the Romans wrote about the Druids, all of that was written by writers in the City of Rome who had never lived in Roman Britain. Unfortunately no Roman citizen that lived in Roman Britain ever wrote anything about the local religions.

We don't even know what the Roman citizens practiced in Britain. The really was no standardized religion in the Roman Empire, it varied from district to district town to town, colony by colony.

Even when following the same gods, it varied from place to place, sort of like Christianity today. How they practice it in Africa is quite different than how they practice it in America ,which in turn is quite different from how they practice it in Scotland, or England.

People need to study a bit more and acquire a bit more scholarship before making claims about things they know knowing about. Otherwise they just sound foolish.

By the way Pagan is not a religion, it is just an umbrella term used for religions not Christian, jewish or muslim.

There was a time, not so long ago, when one simply did not question the Old Testament. If the Old Testament said something had happened at some time in the past, then it happened, and that was that, regardless of whether there was any other evidence for the event outside of it’s pages. No one even considered that it might be FICTIONAL.

The bible is the greatest work of fiction of all time. Surely everyone now knows that it was revised (and virtually rewritten) by the church to reflect what the church wanted the plebs to believe.

I stopped believing in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Clause a long time ago..... I stopped believing in the mythical Bible even before that ! The Loch Ness monster has more credibility

Weeshooie1

Notice you having a wee chuckle back there. Been reading your Beano again?

Never noticed any half naked people dancing when I used to roam the hills. Bugger!

All religions all bad all of the time. If morality means anything at all its the collective agreement of a society that this or that behaviour is acceptable, unacceptable or criminal. It also recognises the distasteful and the subjectivity of taste. Most importantly it has moved way beyond where and with whose consent you rub uglies to the far more important concerns of environment, human rights, governance.

The God of Abraham is merely the worst recent creation of the religious mind; the most vicious to be sure. However amongst these pi**-taking pagans whom one suspects are merely hedonist students, there will be some nutters that believe the nonsense being spouted.

Atheism is the only defensible moral and logical position. Free to acknowledge error, demanding of evidence and justification of its claims it is the only path immune to delusion. Nice upskirt shot in the article by the way Hootsmon.

194...what is 'the nonsense' being spouted?, and who is wearing a skirt in that photo?

182 & 189, you are whittering on about the past, you know, when your Christian followers murdered innocent people claiming they were 'witches' and possessed by the devil? Yes thought so, best leave it there, in the past I suppose?

Hello All,

194.....ah yes, Atheism, the Altar at which master hedonists do worship!

The worst creation wasn't Abraham (he was after all, created in the womb), it was Marxism-Leninism-Maoism: which according to historical records, is responsible for the mass murders of between 107 MILLION and 153 MILLION people!!!

Oh yes, the religion of the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist States which mass murdered all those innocents?

Atheism.

Oh yes, they managed to accomplish this "feat" in a mere 95 total years.

My, what an "achievement" of which Atheists may be deservingly proud.

Cheers from the Rockies

Hello there All,

190.....my, my, my.....I must have hit the proverbial nerve.

Contrary to your beliefs (including your Alexandran adherency), the written and archeological records concerning religions in Rome are plethora.

We know that while there were variations on the same religious themes, the core beliefs were indeed the SAME, regardless of whether a person came from Mesopotamia, Macedonia, Gaul, North Africa, etc.

Thus, when in Rome, believers in Athena could indeed participate in rituals which they knew and of which they had intimate knowledge. Same goes for Isis worshippers from all over the Empire, or for whichever gods/goddesses in which Romans or visitors to Rome believed-----just so long as the religion they worshipped didn't require human sacrifice.

Nice attempt trying to sidestep the issue of human sacrifice in the Ancient Religions-by saying that neo-Pagans do not STILL commit human sacrifice as part and parcel of your worship services. Such was not always the case with Pagan religions-not the case at all and nothing you say can wash that blood, screaming, and agony, of Pagan victims away.
Regardless of what Romans used to say about Christian worship rights, the FACTS are that human sacrifice was NEVER part and parcel of Christian doctrine or rites.

You cannot say the same for Pagan religions.

Lastly, I trust that you've done your VERIFIABLE research and learned that your Alexandran rights originated for Aleister Crowley, who was paid by Gardner to create the infrastructure for what has become known as Modern Wicca?

Please don't spend the effort denying it, as I will be quite happy to provide page numbers, bibliographic citations, and quotes, should you actually go down that dead end argument.

Modern Wicca, like most modern Pagan beliefs, are modern creations, and have NO CONTINUITY to the Ancient Pagan religions-other than in name only.

Oh yes, the Old Testament can be dated in writte

Hello All,

73..Alicia.....my dear, you REALLY need to put down the bong, stop frequenting the Rad Left websites, and START doing some actually reading and investigation: particularly when it comes to the issues of Satan (the devil), demons (fallen angels), Heaven, and Hell.

Please be so kind as to understand that Satan (the devil) is first seen in the Old Testament: texts written by Jews, not Christians (in fact, LONG before followers were first called Christians in Antioch).
Secondly, the concepts of demons, Heaven, and Hell, ALL originate in the Old Testament-which is why when Christ spoke and taught about these issues, He not only had a long history from which to draw upon these concepts, His audiences and His Jewish opponents, were on the SAME PAGE as was Jesus.

Please remember that Jesus was a Jew, of the line of David (King of Israel), and that all His Apostles were Jews.

If you've got a problem with Satan, demons, Heaven and Hell, visit your local Synagogue and talk to an Orthodox Rabbi, because that's where the origin of the Christian concepts and doctrine derive.

Oh yeah, Christ taught more about Hell than He ever did about Heaven. Why? Because He thought the Eternal Issue was so important: important enough to allow Himself to be tortured and executed to keep us from such punishment.

Cheers from the Rockies

Hello All,

Were I to lay my Bible on a shelf, and look only to medicine and science, I would STILL conclude that homosexual sexual acts are indeed, unhealthy and in fact, quite detrimental to the body.

Anal sex (sodomy) whether heterosexually engaged or homosexually engaged, is highly destructive of the rectum and colon. Bleeding is a by-product of this behaviour, as the rectal tissues and colon tissues are not designed for such physically strenuous (and in fact brutally strong in physical terms) contact.

Sphincter muscles during long term engagement in sodomy cease to work properly, and in fact, can become permanently damaged. Colon scarring is also a byproduct of sodomy.

Study after study has proven that the "homosexual lifestlye" greatly increases the chances of alcoholism, drug abuse and addiction, and generally poor health (pre-HIV AIDS studies also confirmed these findings).

One need but look at the design of the human body to understand that ovaries produce eggs, testes produce sperm, female genitalia are designed to interact with male genitalia, rather like two proper pieces of a jig-saw puzzle aligning properly.

When we look at how the human body is designed and is designed to interact between males and females, the only honest finding would be that homosexual behaviour is not natural, in the biological sense of the term.

When it comes to biology, science, and logic, one cannot but conclude that homosexual behaviour (or heterosexual imitation thereof), is neither natural or healthy.

And I didn't mention a single biblical verse, imagine that will you?

Cheers from the Rockies.

"Regardless of what Romans used to say about Christian worship rights, the FACTS are that human sacrifice was NEVER part and parcel of Christian doctrine or rites."

Why then Neanderthal75 were many wise women burned at the stakes, tortured etc. It may not have been part of the rites but it certainly came about because of Christian doctrine.

Hello All,

Well, one last one before nighty-night.

I would like to thank all of the "open minded" and "tolerant" adherents of Political Correctness, for reminding us all that if anyone, and I mean anyone, proposes to discuss any subject which is NOT PC, you splendid supporters of "diverse opiinions" immediately bring out derogatory terms and REFUSE to support your PC opinions with FACTS!!!

All you do is what you have in the past: make ad hominem attacks rather than actually address the issues.

Sad, truly sad: that you cannot or will not have the courage of your convictions to debate issues openly and forthrightly, rather than resorting to personal attacks.

It is MUCH easier to trot out the terms "bigot," "homophobe," "intolerant," etc., rather than actually having to defend your PC positions.

How open minded of you all.

From what I have read, the C.U. seminar was about BIBLICAL DOCTRINE pertaining to the issue of homosexuality. Why in the world do you PC folks not have enough (or any) spine to stand up and be counted, using FACTS and your minds, rather than ad hominem drivel?

Either the Bible states that homosexual sexual acts are forbidden (sin) or it does not say that-which is it please?

If the Bible does stipulate that homosexual sexual acts are sin and fobidden, then where does it say that, how does it say that, does what is written comport with other texts within both the OT and the NT concerning the same issue?

What terms in the original Hebrew and Greek (or Aramaic, depending on the texts under discussion) were used, what syntax was involved, what grammar?

You see, HONEST debate is easy to be had, IF the persons on both sides are really interested in being HONEST.

So far, I've only seen HONESTY from the C.U. side: because they were willing to stand up and honestly hold forth their position, KNOWING that the PC Army would come

Hello Myrrk in Wales,

I just saw your post, so thought I should answer before shutting down.

The answer is quite clear: you are incorrect concerning ANY Christian doctrine advocating the burning (or any other form of execution) of those accused of practicing magic (or of committing any other sin).

Please be so kind as to cite the book, chapter, and verse, if you have it, because having studied the Bible for most of my life (though I have also studied the Noble Quran for the last 6 years), I have never come across such a citation.
Nowhere does Christ or His Apostles command followers of Christ to murder people.

Now, if you want to make the argument that there were men and women who called themselves Christians, and who made accusations about others which lead to their torture and deaths, now upon this last point, you and I can agree!

The difference may not seem much to you, but there IS a vast difference between what WRITTEN DOCTRINE states and what a follower of a Faith portends said doctrine to say.

This is why within the doctrine of Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone), we find that biblical doctrines are explained and defined IN CONTEXT, with OTHER citations on the same subject or theme.

My personal opinion on doctrinal matters is literally of NO CONSEQUENCE: what matters is what is verifiably written within Scripture (regardless of whether you believe in the foundational spiritual rationale behind the written words or not. I do NOT believe in this sense, in the Noble Quran, but I CANNOT-if I am honest-stipulate that the Noble Quran says something when it FACT, it does not say it.)

This is why such a difference is important: between what a follower of a Faith says is a doctrine and what may be read by both believers and non-believers, in the texts of that particular Faith.

I hope this has helped clarify the differences.

Cheers from the Rockies.

Neathanderal time to get back into your cave and put your head on the boulder pillow dear chap. Personally, your views on homosexuality are invalid, no need to mention anything from the bible, your christianity is screaming out of you onto these pages and as far as I am concerned, you are biased mate since the day of your birth/brainwashing.

Plenty old religions murdered/sacrificed people, including yours in the name of your 'God' over the centuries, nice of you to sidestep that issue. In fact was it not a case recently where a young Russian (?) orthodox nun was killed during an 'exorcism' to rid her of demons, when she was actually mentally ill, and there have been other examples of this behaviour where people have been killed or badly injured during 'exorcisms' to rid them of 'the devil', oh but you have to laugh, its incredible, 2007 and people still believe hogwash like that, but then that's ignorance and indoctrination for you.

Ah yes, and the poor people of Africa, buying into and dying because of the Catholic guilt trip about condoms, whilst they still practice polygamy.

'Hot topic issue'?, blatant prejudice wrapped up in Christianity you mean.

Cheers from the ether.

#204 check out:
Biblical interpretation:
http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.com/
Factual research:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual
and on reparative therapy:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod.htm

From what I have read, the Christian Union were running a course whose ground rules would be laid down by them and for which the outcome was conversion to heterosexuality, or at least acceptance by homosexuals that they are immoral and therefore inferior to heterosexuals, using their particular interpretation of the Bible to bash this home.

Further to my post at #186, I do not think universities should be offering courses by single issue special interest groups purporting either to convert you from a homosexual into a heterosexual or vice versa. So called 'discussion' in such an environment is just window dressing for the discredited 'reparative therapy'.

Bible - Quoran - = Folklore.

Weeshooie.
Aye, it's 7.15pm here, raining and cauld enough tae freeze the proverbials.
Off to the local Progress Ass meeting.

cheers,

Wiz

ps Robbie has been missing for a while but Bill's still giving them a few serves.

STOP DRINKING THE EMBALMING FLUID PAGENS

FRYING IN THE FIRE SOON

Hecate, I'm afraid you're on a hiding to nothing with Neanderthal - unfortunately his online moniker is a fair description of the lack of evolution his own mindset has achieved, in that he is unable to see any point of view except his own - like many people who will not hear another viewpoint he has indeed "shut down".

How sad it is that the very religion which claims it teaches tolerance, is the one which doesn't follow that through. Do as I say, not as I do, in fact.

Would that some Christians saw the need to put their own house in order before inflicting their viewpoint on the world...

If they accept that their God is perfect, and that they, mere mortals, are imperfect, then you have to be astonished at their arrogance at still assuming they are superior enough to tell the rest of us how to live.

Hi
My heart goes out to the lady who was mistreated by her husband directly after attending Church services.

My heart goes out to all of those people who have had poor experiences with 'religious' people, or so called Christians.

In my limited experience One of the most common things that a Christian is called is a hypocryt. Many of you will probably agree with this judging by the tone of some of the postings.

I think that throughout history 'man' has taken religion and manipulated it to his own selfish ends for power and control. This has created a general distrust of the bible and its principles among many people throughout the world.

People have been tortured, murdered, raped, and all sorts of horrendous things happen in the name of religion.

If we look at the word 'Hypocrit' what does it mean?

It means pretender or liar, some one who is an imposter. Now you may be can see that if you are holding these offenses down to Christians then this holds no water as the people who committed these crimes against humanity where only pretending to be Christians and they went against all that Jesus taught and used religion to there own ends.

If people can understand this then hopefully it will serve to break down the barriers of what may be holding them back from the truth.

I am not wanting to get into any arguments as then this is purely for my own self importance and not for the right cause.

There has always and will always be people within the Church who do not represent the gospel in the right way, but does this make the gospel wrong?

Religion is one of the most destructive things to a persons true relationship with God. Religion is so busy at making rules anregulations and tying people up with traditions that they lose the plot.

Our God is a personal God who loves you all so much. I once heard it put like this: He hates the sin, but loves the person with all His heart.

If people would only

Shouldn't that be "Sneers from the Rackys"?

Neanderthal75

exodus 22:18

"thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"

I would like to ask where you think the world would be if we didn't have tolerance of other people? Would it in your opinion be a better place? How do you see us living? Would be segregated into areas or would those who didn't fit your point of view simply be ignored?

We all need tolerance if we are to survive as a species. The world has changed since the time the bible or any other scripture was written, we have to change with it, heck some people even go so far as to say the bible has changed in that time during its re-writes.

I am .O.B.O.D. so that you all know my slant on things up front before I write anything more.

First of all, many of you got the point of the article right away. Modern Pagans of any persuasion don't walk around discriminating against others or insisting that their views are the only ones that should ever be represented. While the "Christian" Union advocates discrimination against gays, and probably several other forms of discrimination, as such groups often assume the right to.

But there is nothing Christian about discrimination! Jesus himself would have sat down and eaten with gays and welcomed them. He would have treated them with human respect and decency. He would not try to ban them from housing, and jobs, and public service because of their sexual orientation, and if He were indeed the son of God then he would know what no one else understood in the biblical era; that homosexuality is a biological phenomena, not a choice. The Christ’s love was big enough for gays too.

So where are the Christians who should be defending gays? Here in America they largely keep silent even when they abhor the discrimination advocated by those who call themselves "Christian Fundamentalists," and by doing so they give license to the hate mongers they detest. Over here Jerry Falwell just died and no one dares to say a bad thing about his hate-twisted travesty of Christianity. In many ways, he was the Anti-Christ he feared so much. But then there seem to be no shortages of anti-Christs in the world, certainly not in America or Scotland. But good Christians everywhere need to stand up and stop those who would preach love and then advocate hate.

How sad and pathetic that it takes a Druid of the Land to say these things to them. But the essence of Druidry is love of the Land and every living being on it, and we have not forgotten.

I always thought the original wording in the Bible was that "thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live" and that witch is a "modern" interpretation of the original word for "poisoner" (don't have my etymological references to hand unfortunately). So the Bible doesn't mention witches at all, it's a later construct.

#220

Classic, bar called the Peel (South Africans will understand that one) and the manager called McFeely. Must be a made up one surely.

However thought that the civil liberties mob supported the banning of Hetro types, kind of went against all they are met to stand for, ie Civil Liberty, must have missed something out.

Looks like liberty for one type of person only.

Myself I would not go into a Gay bar, because it is not my type of place, or people I feel comfortable around. In fairness there are other types of bar I also would not enter.

I am not a Christian. This is because I disagree with the religion on basic theological grounds. But I get tired of people saying that it is a religion of hate. Too many people want to change the religion into what they want it to be, rather than just find a religion that they are comfortable with. No one is burned at the stake for not being a Christian anymore, but they do have their throats slit for not being Muslim. In Muslim countries, homosexuals (and witches) are still stoned to death. Druids used to practice human sacrifice, but they don't have the courage to do it anymore. The Bible says homosexuality is wrong (not the just the Old Testament, but the New as well). It says sex outside of marriage is wrong. You do not have to agree. But no matter how many liberal "Christians" say otherwise, that is what the Christian Holy Book says. If you don't like it, you are free to practice Wicca or Santeria, or even Atheism. But it is not freedom of speech when one religion is allowed to speak and another is not allowed the same opportunity. Basically, the liberal mindset is Stalinist -- "you are free to speak only as long as you agree with me".

$222 It depends on which translation you are reading as to whether you decide that the Bible condemns homosexuality. (see http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.com/) but even if it does, one is entitled to question its legitimacy to do so in the light of the limited knowledge then available about this and all manner of other issues.

According to Christian teaching, if you have not heard "the Word" you will not be consigned to the eternal pits of hellfire and brimstone for not following it provided you obey your conscience.

Two thirds of the known world being steadfastly non-Christian, it therefore follows that homosexuals are far better off sincerely following their consciences and never having the profound misfortune to hear this "Word". They have every right to question whether the person who is proclaiming the "Word" to them has the authority to do so, and furthermore, by what means they came by such a fearful word that could so readily damn them to eternal torture.

Hello All,

Well, after reading the many responses to my posts, what can I say except: thank you PC Army for proving my points!

With one partial exception (Myrrk), the LOT of you didn't bother to address any of the salient points of my posts, you merely resorted to just that response of which I accused you: ad hominem personal attacks.

You cannot support your PC close minded and intolerant positions, so you resort to attacking in a personal manner. Highly appropriate for folks touting "diversity."

You like diversity, just so long as everyone else agrees with you. I on the other hand, have no problem with others disagreeing with me: if I believe I have the right to express myself in a proper manner on any subject, then it is incumbent upon me to provide and protect, that same right to others-especially to those with whom I would disagree.

Sad to say, the PC Army is indeed, as one poster put it, more of the Stalinist mindset than the Free Speech Mindset. You can disagree all you like-just so long as you stay within the acceptable positions laid down by the PC Army Elite.

I must also point out that most of you in the PC Army are woefully ignorant of history, archeology, anthropology, and palentology-which is proven in part, by your wholly bigoted and ignorant responses, pertaining to my Cognomen.

I proudly wear the title of "Neanderthal" because of its historical significance in the spiritual progress of humankind. How odd that none of you O so "spiritual" Pagans even understood this, which is because you keep yourselves igorant of any knowledge outside your personal desires.

Neanderthals were the first humans to understand that there was indeed, life after death. This can be seen by studying the evidence from their grave sites.

Look up a place called Shanidar (in Iraq) on Google and learn something other than your standard PC intolerant mantras. It'll be a positive change for the be

#223, Derek Williams -- As I said at the outset, I am not Christian. But whatever translation you may read, or, better still, the original texts, homosexuality is condemned. The two-thirds of the world that you reference as being non-Christian is for the most part either Atheist (Communist) or Muslim. The Muslims do not merely threaten homosexuals with hell-fire, they stone them to death to send them on their way. Feel free to move to Saudi Arabia, and ask how they tolerate it there.

First #194. voltaire's janny

I find it ridiculous to make a comment about Pagan faiths being hedonist. It shows you have not done any research before making this stupid remark.

No Pagan faith that I know of is hedonist, And further more to the comment we are hedonist students. Well I and many if not most are past that age thank you. And we are raising our children in our faith which is moral and responsible for our behaviors, and caring towards others, and the planet.

We have regular jobs, eat normal meals, and even watch the Television from time to time. Listen the same music the rest of the world listens to (A variety).

And you are speaking oddly from a Christian point of view which you might wish to correct if you really wish to be considered an atheist.

Hello All,

Myrrk......you're using a "bait and switch" tactic my dear fellow: you said "Christian Doctrine" pertaining to the executions of so called "witches."

The citation you gave was a Jewish commandment, from the Levitical Texts, and under the Old Covenant I must add.

Please provide me with the New Testament (Christian, since it was written AFTER the Advent of Christian within the human timeline) citation to support your premise that Christian doctrine commands the execution of others for their sins.

My answers to your myriad questions, which boiled down refer to two points: the issue of "tolerance" and "the validity of Scripture."

1. Tolerance

Nowhere in the New Testament does it state or commend, that Christians have any authority over non-Christians. The verse "we are in the world but not of the world," is a concise declarative of the Christian doctrine of living in a non-Christian world.
Christians are commanded to offer the Gospel of Christ to all and sundry, but NOT to force it upon anyone-no Islamic "edge of the sword" commands ANYWHERE in the Bible, OT or NT.

This is the tolerance taught by Christ: you can do your thing as much as you wont, just don't expect me to agree with what you are doing or to agree in your promoting similar/same behaviour to others. Don't expect me to be quiet about the effects of behaviour "x" either-I have a responsibility within the Realm of Ideas, to debate issues just as often and openly, as any non-Christian.

2. Validity of Scripture

Per my earlier citations (the Massoretic Texts and the 35,000 copies of the texts of the NT), regardless of the millions of copies over the centuries, or the transliterations into a "bazillion" languages, the NT is contextually the same as when it was written (60-130 AD), as is the OT (ca 575 BC).
How do we know this? Because of the extant

#227 Neanderthal75 -- Well said, but you are using the scientific method of exegises with people who do not care about facts, but only about their "feelings". It is easier and safer to condemn Christians than those who actually would kill one for heterodoxy. The American Communists refused to accept the evil of Stalin until he signed the non-aggression pact with Hitler. And as soon as the war was over, they forgot all about it. Logic and facts have little impact on these people's world views

224, Neanderthal, I mean really come on pal who are you kidding???

Neanderthals were the first to discover that there is life after death? How pray tell did they discover this?

Neanderthals were the first early humans who in their ignorance and fear decided that there must be something to appease in order to stop the thunder and lightning. I am surmising here, but perhaps their inability to comprehend death and the loss of family members helped them to invent an after life where they would all meet up and have a jolly good time of it all?

Which is why a lot of us still do believe in God, the fear that our living existance ,is all that there is. Humans need something to cling onto to get them through the night and keep the fear of death at bay. What better way to do it than to invent an afterlife and the possibility of being reborn.

Neanderthal, at the end of the day, your Christian beliefs rely entirely on the basis that a man (who, for the record, I believe existed in human form - but no more than that), a human being, was tortured to death, and then his physical body was taken to "heaven", a location which geography has yet to confirm as "FACT", and that this deceased form took life again. None of that has been proven as FACT, so please don't presume to tell others that their own beliefs are false when your own are yet open to interpretation and probing.

Beliefs, including yours, are the personal possession of the individual, and cannot be inflicted by another.

Neanderthal

Most of your posts I enjoyed, as being witty, quick to hit the target and generaly amusing, exception the lecture on male/female biology.

Now my slightly pre stone age friend (Homo Sapiens Time that is), we know your sub species was indeed approximatly 25-30% stronger than us new kids on the block and also had a strong advantage when it came to both brain size and also nostril size, I therfore assume that you are residing at a considerable altitude in those gracious metamorphic folds of the Earth known as the "Rockies".

Now my most learned friend from across the Atlantic, I suggest you must desist in imposing your vast intellect upon the minor and as yet not Extinct Homo Sapiens who read this section.

As a great ancestor of mine once said

BIG WORDS MY HEAD HURTS.

Anyway may your eyebrows grow to stupendous length and your brow ridge protude in adverse climates.

#230 Bella

Good points you made but fact and faith are a touch different.

You can know something is true but, be unable to prove it in scientific terms, even if the proof is before your eyes, an example is the mobius strip, only proved to have one side but anybody can tell it has two.

I would change the last para of your post to read "and should not be inflicted on another".

Live and let live pretty lady

#226 Go to Saudi Arabia to watch homosexuals being executed? What a pointless thing to do, but I'm not surprised you suggested it.

227-8 "Only facts are important", but not if they don't suit your pseudo-scientific exegesis. There is overwhelming empirical evidence supporting homosexuality being a valid orientation as opposed to a mere lifestyle choice but that doesn't suit you as a Sola Scriptura Christian. There is plenty of room for doubt about biblical interpretation but that doesn't suit Sola Scriptura Christians. The Christian church is divided into approximately 33,000 denominations, many of which now support homosexuality as a valid orientation, but that doesn't suit Sola Scriptura Christians.

There have been egregious wrongs perpetrated by Sola Scriptura Christians using the Bible as justification, slavery and repression of women, incest, polygamy, the execution of Copernicus and the incarceration of Galileo being but a few examples but these are conveniently overlooked.

Before someone told you all about "The Word" and "The Book", you had no knowledge of either, yet you come on here paternalistically laying down the law as though you have been designated the authority to do so.

Whoever who told you about The Book had been told by someone else before them who was told by someone before that. It is all so long ago it is impossible to verify as the authors are long dead, therefore it relies entirely upon your credulity and that of anyone else gullible enough to swallow every Biblical metaphor as fact, hook line and sinker.

Your encyclopaedic knowledge of The Book is very impressive, but is not in and of itself any reason to buy the product you're trying to sell. Christianity has a lot of value as a guide to ethics and personal accountability and responsibility, but I’m sorry, I ain’t buyin’ your version.

#230 Bella Donna -- "Beliefs, including yours, are the personal possession of the individual, and cannot be inflicted by another." Why do you guys accuse Christians of imposing their beliefs on others? Did Neanderthal threaten to kill anyone? What about the Wahabists? What about al Queda? Why are you so afraid of Christians? When was the last homosexual or witch killed by Christians because of religious differences?

#233 Derek Williams -- I guess you meant 225, my post, about being homosexual in Saudi Arabia. Naturally, you did not address the point. And naturally, you ignore that I am talking about Free
Speech, not religion. And, of course, you ignore that I have said repeatedly that I am not Christian. My point is simply that if pagans can speak at a state supported university, Christians should have the same opportunity. Otherwise, ban them all.

#233 Dereck

Impressive post, seems a subject you feel strongly about.

The word and the book part espicialy I thought was a bloody valid comment, now I am not member of the Church though I am a believer, (ecumenical matters and self belief in taking sacrement etc, which I am not fit to do so), but my wife is. Now she was not brought up in the faith and certainly was not coerced in any way, she is now a member while I sit at the back amoungst the un saved. Which p***** me off.

I am not a person who accepts every word in the book as Iron because basicaly the latest chapters are 2000 odd years old and times have moved on. It is open to interpretation and hopefully people should look at it this way. It is however a very valid guide to life, and belief is fundemental to me at least so I get a great deal of strength from it asmany do.

#234 Joseph

The Whabis in Saudi are there for a simple political reason, they supported the family of Saud a good time ago and when they got power they kept the deal. Suits both sides and stuff your average Saudi who gets shafted, been there and discovered most Saudi's hate the place, barbaric, in the dark ages big style and probably with the exception of a tiny minority one of the most unhappy mob of peopole on Earth.

Zero tolerence for anything. So doubt if we could put our views and thoughts on a board like this without serious reprecussions.

#235, correct it should have been 225.
• I have not ignored that you said you are not a Christian - I have not claimed that you are
• Your point about Saudi Arabia was so very obvious, i.e. if you think the Christians are bad, try the Muslims, I felt there was nothing to address so I deliberately took it literally in a piece of the purest, most sportsmanlike "reductio ad absurdem"
• Your use of the word "naturally" suggests that it is to be expected that I would not address the point, so I am wondering even now why I am bothering to write this
• Your final point indicates you did not apprise yourself of the facts before leaping into print - thet fact is, the Christian Union 'course' was allowed to go ahead, please also refer to my posts above at 40, 124, 143, 158, 160, 166, 170, 176, 186 and 208 (aghast, have I really written that many?)

#235 Joseph

Been thinking about your post and free speach etc.

What if the Hetros decided to march in respect of their own rights, can see bloody uproar from the Gay Lesbian side.

They dont need to do it and it would offend the Gay/L mob so why the hell do they insist on marching up and down streets causing mayhem in their pink posing pouches instead of just getting on with what they do behind closed doors without offending the majority of people.

Bugger all to do with Pagenisim or Christianity as was pointed out last night.

#236 Kenny A -- Well said. Peace. And Peace unto Mohammed, who was not a nut-case like those who now claim to represent him.

#238 - highly unlikely Kenny, the hetero mob already have all their rights and what's more, the gays have nearly caught up, but if ever the hetero rights group want to get into a bit of nightwear, put on a show and bang the drums for their Straight Rights Parade, I for one will be out there confettiing, carousing, caterwauling and cheering "go the heteros, oy oy oy!" - after all, they did go to all the pain and trouble of bringing gays into the world :)

#240 Derek, As you all know I go to bed wearing a kilt, so the pipes drums and caterwauling (is that legal), sounds kind of like a march of a Highland regiment. Forgot the Pipes though.

Was in one and all were men of the Hetro type, changed days no possibly with the PC rules and all that.

Hope the Heathens and Pagens get round to a parade, that should be a beaut.

#239 Joseph

Not sure I agree totaly, in todays world he would be regarded as a total nutter, however the world was a very different place in the 7th centuary and he obviously was some man. Have my doubts if the prophet would be overly happy with what is happening as he regarded the three main faiths as all being people of the book. Now his own followers are fragmented and those who follow his two main interpretations are letting hell lose on each other and all who get in the way.

Sad

Hi

We are seeing the consequences of how the nations of the world are handling living in toleration of their neighbours. We see day after day week after week year after year the horrendous persecutions, wars, Genicides, starving millions etc etc.

Is this the worlds view of toleration of other people, races, and creeds that some people speak of?

Many people are blind to what is going on around them, or so wrapped up in there own sinful nature that they have turned off their conscience, like taking out the batteries of a smoke detector.

They have in fact seered their consciences to enable themselves to carry on in their self indulgent practices.

People get so upset by Holy scripture of the Bible because it serves to show up the truth of their sinful nature and people will naturally get highly offended by this. They will say things like 'who do Christians think they are trying to tell us that we are sinful'!

What is sin anyway and who sets the perametres to say what sin is.

Whether we believe in God or not, we will all have to stand in front of our maker and give an account of our lives. Unbelievers are like people who stand in the middle of the freeway and shout out I don't believe in trucks! It does not matter whether you believe in trucks or not, you are in dire danger of the inevitabability that you will be hit by one.

Well, the 10 commandments is what God will judge by and he has given His law to us so we are without excuse when we have to give our acount to Him.

This does not make me any better than anyone else as a Christian, it just means that I recognise that I have been led astray and fall way short of Gods glory. I have simply accepted Gods offer of grace to me, and the realism of the change that has occurred in my life is astounding. No one can argue with my personal experience with God and the change that He has made in my life from utter despair and hitting rock bottom to being placed on the right

#244 Robert

A good post and one I will show to my wife, I am going to have a guess at the fact you are an American, freeway a bit of a give away, and also that you are young.

The present forum you are in you are wasting your breath as it is a pagen / heathen topic under disscussion with a lot of sarcasm thrown in and I fear a post like yours may be delet....ed, because it will go against the grain of many.

For myself I have smashed most of the commandments barring worshiping false Idols No1, and thou shall not steal.

I think you have got it however and wish you well, it is not an easy thing to do in life but the rewards are eternal.

Kenny Angus

243 Kenny A. -- It is very sad. And the Atheists hate Jesus. Very, very sad. They do not remember the days of those who follow Thor and Odin. But these days will return. The Oak Groves were a fearful place in the days of the Old Gods. May the Atheists be shown more mercy than they show their unborn. Allah loves the merciful. Jesus said so. Loki laughs.

#232 Kenny A, you're absolutely right :-)

#234 Joseph - When was the last time you heard Pagans condemn another for not believing their doctrine? When was the last time you heard Pagans say that someone's soul, spirit, was damned eternally because they did not believe what they (Pagans) believed? When was the last time you heard Pagans say that "unbelievers" were unholy, unclean and unfit to live? That you really should be burned, in fact, that that's what will (apparently) happen to you.

When you're Pagan you get used to hearing that all the time. You get used to hearing that your children are excluded because of your beliefs. You get used hearing that you're damned. You get used to being preached at on a daily basis.

But as you say, no harm done.

Please be clear that if any one commits atrocities in the name of Chritianity then they are not following the teachings of Christ.

All anyone has to do if they are unsure of God and how they stand, is to ask Him. This can be done in private without long winded flowery worded prayers, but from a genuine heart.

God will never let you down.

He came to the earth to save the sinner, not to condemn him, but as the perfect gentleman he leaves the choice in your hands and does not force Himself on anyone.

As said in previous posts we are seeing the consequences of mans decision to go it alone independantly of God. The lies, deciept, wars, murder, covertiousness, adultery, theft, violence, rebelious nature, rape, greed etc, etc. Our world is literally falling apart due to mans destructive impact. This is all due to the big 'I' which is in the centre of sIn!

Gay people are just as much loved by God as any other sinner and they are given the choice to get back on the right path towards God as any other person who has been led astray.

I pray that this will touch the hearts of people, not to alienate people further from the truth.

With so much at stake anyone owes it to themselves to put their objections or pedudices to one side for a moment just to at least check some of these issues out for themselves.

God bless you all

#244 It is gratifying that you have found Christianity to be a help to you, but once again, we have the preaching, "people are wrapped in their sinful nature", the judging, "unbelievers are…", the false humility, "I have been led astray" the paternalism, "We will be judged by…" and the misinterpretation, "looked with lust…" (not stated in the Ten Commandments which in the respect of sexual mores refer only to committing adultery and coveting your neighbour's wife).

Again I am glad for you, that your religion has helped you get from "utter despair and hitting rock bottom"; clearly it has worked wonders for you. Far be it from me or anyone else to gainsay this.

Please also recognise and accept that there are people, both heterosexual and homosexual, who are of good will, good character and good conscience who got there without recourse to any religious ephiphany whatsoever. It's called "doing the right thing", the precept upon which most of the Common Law is founded. Loading it up with Guilt and Sin is a scare tactic not needed by ordinarily moral people.

#247 Bella Donna -- So, if someone says something that hurts your feelings, they should not be allowed to speak?

#247 Bella Donna -- And again, why are you guys so focused on Christians, when Muslims actually want to kill you for your beliefs?

#246 onwards

Please forgive me if I screw this post up but here goes.

Joseph have not hung a person through the ears in Uphallsa myself but sure a few of my ancestors did, the final passage I think should have read the, the prophet said to forgive people because Jesus said so, I believe in classical Islam Jesus is the highest prophet after Muhammed who is the prophet. Not researched that one a lot but it is what a muslim friend of mine told me in SA in 1984. However I get the point.

Bella, I take it that you are a paganish type, all I can assure you of is childern are looked after to an incredible degree where we are, it makes no difference what religion or belief the parents follow, the childern are treated as the young should be. Safe and protected, sometimes the more vocal parents who chose to come here and impose their beliefs on us have a harder time. As one of the last fully presbeterian regions in the original sense you may be surprised at how tollerant people are, a case of convert by example rather than the Sword. The Old ones still live on even if people do not realise, a word or phrase actualy refers to the pre christian times. We are still the "Wee Free", perhaps you will think a little better of us now.

Robert, Again a good arguement, a touch of fire and brimstone may appeal to a Scottish forum but as this one is international you are the best judge, go for it.

Dereck, good message, all I can say is I WOULD RATHER COVET MY NEIGHBOURS SHEEP AS MY NEIGHBOURS WIFE SHOULD BE IN A LARGE TANK OF SALT WATER. LAND WHALE WHO WALKS THE EARTH, SO I AM SAFE ON THAT ONE.

FINGERS WEARING OUT SO NOT GOING TO CORRECT ANY TYPOS.

Enjoyed the posts folks.

Kenny Angus

Joseph (250) "political correctness" is crap. That said, I don't want you or anyone else coming up to me and preaching "the good news" that I'm going to your "hell" just because I don't follow your religion. My beliefs do not include a place/state of eternal punishment. I have not only heard all the evangelistic rhetoric before, I've also probably said most of it before, for you see, there was a time in my life when I was led astray from my earlier inclinations, and became a Christian preacher. Time passed, I got better, and I resumed being true to myself, but along the way, thanks to university and graduate school, I learned a lot more about Christian Theology, Christian Ethics, and the Bible (and the languages in which the originals were written) than most Christians know. Thus, if you want to come witness to me and I don't tell you to leave me alone, then you had better be prepared to refute my counter-arguments with sound logic, or resist the urge to "witness" to me in the first place. To answer your question, though: no, you should not be allowed to preach to me if I tell you I don't want to hear it; your freedom of speech and freedom of religion end when you begin harassing anyone else.

253

Croman

Being a bit hard on the lad, if you have also as you say, been through the mill he is going through you should understand it better than most. Possibly a young believer our lad is.

Sad you had it and lost it, me never found it so cannot speak with the experience of you folks.

253 Croman mac Nessa -- I think you must have missed my previous posts. I am not a Christian, and do not wish to preach to you. But let me be more specific -- I am a Buddhist, which means Atheist. But as far as Gods are concerned, I follow Thor and Odin. I am not a Christian by any definition, and I do not care about anyones sexual orientation. But when the Muslims come to attack, they will find in me someone who cherishes death as a warrior as much as they do. They want an oasis of virgins with wine that does not intoxicate -- across the road is Valhalla, with hot Celtic women and good mead that actually has a buzz. My posts here are about Freedom of Speech.