Yet he supported the war.

Sorry Gordon it won't wash. You're as culpable as Blair for this mess and cutting and running now is blatant electioneering. The people ain't that naive.

Totally agreed with Dick@2 :)

This wont go down too well in the White House .. anyway, the country needs an election on the day Tony Blair steps down .. not 2 years on.

Remember all the stuff & claims spouted by the tories after Mrs Thatcher was deposed by her own .. and what did we get, Major's Government which was a right old crooked shambles ..are we heading for another one of those perhaps ?

I totally agree with #3 who agrees with #2Dick.

So that's why Queen Elizabeth visited the White House - to give Bush a head's up on the news.

But why can't Brown simply bring the troops home now? Why wait for two years? Bring the troops home now! They should never have been sent in the first place.

It sounds like Brown is going to stick with Bush until he's out of office, demonstrating that he's just another poodle.

Why do you call Gordon Brown the "Prime Minister elect"? When was he elected Prime Minister? And by whom?

#6 Heidi. You've got it in one. Why shouldn't the troops be brought home now. They should never have been sent there in the first place.

This proposal of Broon's is a shoddy attempt to fool the electorate. Not only won't it work, but it exposes Broon as the hypocrite he really is.

Broon is as much a war criminal as Bliar as he, and the rest of Bliar's cabinet, voted to get involved in an illegal war. He can't use the excuse that he was only following orders. That one was tried at Nuremburg, and didn't wash.

No. 8- He was elected to lead the Labour party by the MPs of that party. In this country, that is how one becomes PM. So, he is Prime Minister-elect. It's not that hard to understand.

And, it's clear to see that those commenting on this board are only interested in cheap political point-scoring, rather than debating the policy itself.

And here was me thinking that the SNP web-drones were wound up after the election!

I totally agree with #5 who agrees with #3 who agrees with #2 Dick.

How often will Labour get away with saying they are withdrawing troops when there's still 7000 there?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/world...?

#13 - I thought you only kept your inane ramblings for the sports pages? I agree with #2 Dick, #3, #5 and everyone else who agrees with #2 Dick

Anyone who recalls the uncomfortable look on Blair's face as he stood with Bush and the Spanish President declaring the then future war with Iraq as right and just know he didnt believe it to be right and I'm damned sure he knows it for certain now. Instead of holding his hands up and admitting it, he has a cosy public love-in with Bush while British troops continue to die in Iraq and Afghanistan slips closer to chaos. Brown may have backed the war, but I commend his decision to pull out.

Sunday quiz - add your own punctuation to #16. Doh!

#10 KY.
So one becomes PM by being elected Leader of the Labour party. Gosh, and here was me thinking it had something to do with "primo inter pares" and appointment by the Crown.

I agree with #2 #3 and #5 but not in that order

Comment@9 Nice to see you back Guga :)..........and i also would like to say i agree with comment #11 who's spot on with his agreement of #5 agreeing with #3 agreeing with Dick@2........and agree with #19 if he agrees with #3 agreeing with dick@2 first

Totaly agree with #2,#3(Hi, Scottwebb)And #5. Just as an aside,a good friend of the family is due to rotate back to Iraq on tuesday. Second tour, Maryland National Guard. Please wish Eddy luck and safety.

Comment@21 Hi 2dogs, i also wish you mate Eddy all the very best :)

Why were Scottish troops there in the first place?

21 - 2dogs

I am sure all of us wish each individual soldier the best of luck.

Doesn't change our view on the 'war', or on the murdering, lying Bush and Bliar, ably assisted by Broon.

It won't wash Gordon, bring them home NOW, before any other mother's son dies needlesly. Or are things going so really well that they'll improve over the next two years? If not, whe NOT now?

A bit of luck yesterday and we wouldn't have to watch the farce of Bliars 'Legacy' tour over the next six weeks, with the fawning media ever too happy to give him blanket coverage.

Should of course read 'why NOT now?' - early morning keyboard!

#13 Gandalf -- yer such a charmer -- ye have a real way of bringing people round tae your point of view.

Don't you think it's good news though everyone (else) -- for whatever reasons --?

Guga #9 Where the hell have you been -- I thought you were brown bread...?

Cowards and cretins all.

God bless our troops.

#9 - Guga II ????? Guga II - did Guga die? If its the same - maybe you were never away, maybe I just missed your posts; but welcome back in your new form.

On to business;

Yes, Mr. Brown is off to a good start, or will be - assuming he da' man.

By then, and perhaps even right now, it might be best to pull the UK's contingent out of the front line as little of significant use is being accomplished.

TY for the effort chaps - but I think you're at the point of diminishing returns.

In any case, you'll need to rebuild for the next big push by the Islamists.

Mr. Brown might want to consider adding another 50,000 fighting troops to the BA, or perhaps more usefully; 5,000 to the BA and 45,000 to the RM!

#27 Yes, I presume you mean American troops & I hope they return safe -- have you read Slaughterhouse Five by the way?

#29 If only more people would read and under stand writers such as the late Kurt Vonnegut who saw the horror of war first hand

We can't leave!!! There's still all that lovely oil left!!!

13. Gandalf the Great, Slayer of Orcs

Muslims do not tell Scotland, or the UK what to do. The US citizen also fails to tell the US president what to do, pity.

However, it is always nice to meet someone whi can deal well with Rangers fans eh?

#31 Oil has nothing to to with it

Shock horror ! the penny has finally dropped in the highest of high echelons of Nu Lab.

Willie #33 oh yeah ???

Willie # 30 - yer right. There are too many armchair warriors on both sides of the pond. Interesting to see how they would fare if they experienced real combat.

Real combat - human blood and not childish fantasies about slaying orcs.

Whats so funny about Peace Love and Understanding Brinsley Swartz

Hint to www.scottwebb.co.uk.. I wonder if you have a life...or is it cyber? Perhaps you need to lay off the keyboard for a while mate.

It should of course be Blair who announces withdrawal - that would give him some sort of legacy in this country but could seriously affect his earning power on the lucrative American tour.
So much more important for him to posture his way around for the next six weeks rather than take any important decisions about anything while Parliament goes into an extended recess.
If there was an election tomorrow and Cameron won as a reaction to the Blair years, the first thing he would do would be to announce withdrawal.
Why the resentment that Brown has announced the absolutely inevitable first? Is it about the idea or is it about the man?

#38 I agree its time scottwebb got out more too much paranoia and conspiracy

So, it'll go down badly in the White House?. Well, offhand, I can't think of any better reason for withdrawing british troops now.BUsh wanted this war, Bush started this war .Now, let him fight this war on his own!

Of course its blatant electioneering.So what! If it means sticking two fingers up to the Americans, then all the better. A pity Britain didn't follow the EU countries on Iraq instead of acting the lapdog to an oil hungry dictator & international bully!

The next stap's Kircaddy - it used to be
linoleum, now it's Gordon's moral compost.

K.Y, Edinburgh, No. 8- "He was elected to lead the Labour party by the MPs of that party. In this country, that is how one becomes PM. So, he is Prime Minister-elect. It's not that hard to understand"
In a word wrong as well KY!
Brown was not elected there was no vote he was the sole nominee.
There fore he is the Prime Minister Nominate.

27 which god/gods are you on about ?

Brown Bomber Backpedals

#9 GugaII Welcome back, presume you had a spot of bother accessing the old Hootman eh what?
#39 I agree with you, it's easier!
#10 KY Finished licking your wounds?

The main thing, and I think most agree on this one, is that the troops should come home as soon as possible.

However, we should never forget that Brown is as guilty as Blair and his chums on this one. Despite keeping his flabby jowls still, as he did on most important issues, he was totally complicit in Labour's lying and deceit which led to the illjudged action in Iraq.

Jimmy Carter's words were correct. Blair, Brown and the rest had a chance to do something good for once by supporting the UN and Europe against mad Bush. They blew it big time and and I for one hope that Brown does not succeed in making political capital out of his own mistakes.

Let the facts speak for themselves:

http://icasualties.org/oif/

The graph shown here can be used to determine the periods at which things are "getting better" :

http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/USfatalities.html

Certainly shows that Alex Salmond was spot on by opposing the war from the start.

Brown, having been a supporter of the war is clearly electioneering. Having said that, I'm sure many parents and indeed sons will be more than happy for this war to be brought to an end, though it is likely to be too little too late for Mr Brown, though I am sure he will have other surprises up his sleeve to the betterment of Britain and Scotland. He is one smart cookie.

Fortunately, so too is Alex Salmond and many of his team.

I agree that we should never have been there in the first place.What was going on in Iraq was quite frankly ...none of our business. It was their country and it was up to the Iraqis whether or not to try to get rid of their dictator.
However......we have made a right mess of their country, perhaps we should attempt to put it right by some other means instead of having our troops there.

It was quite clear to me at the last general election that we were electing the team Blair and Brown. I can't see why anyone should have a problem now with Brown taking over the top job - that was what we knew would happen - that is what we voted for.
(not that I voted for them).

I disagree with pulling troops out for UK political reasons. The decision should be based on what is best for the people of Iraq (the ones who want help to develop freedom).
But then most posters on this site don't give two hoots about the people of Iraq. Why not? Are the people of Iraq some sort of second class citizen who don't deserve the freedoms that we enjoy?

Blair with Brown and the labour party took us to war based on lies.
Alex Salmond told the truth, Brown is going to spin this as the man of peace who brought the troops home.

Hand me sickbag!

Alex Salmond would have left ethnic cleansing to happen in Europe in 1999 if he had his way unpardonablle folly he called it

It would make more sense if he pulled out of No 10.

He was the one who financed (and still is financing)Blairs illegal war.

KY, and you have no political viewpoint on the issue?

The troops need to come home but i suspect maybe it's more to do with the cost of the whole occupation, in financial terms., as Brown realises his economic plans are not as sound as he thought. Maybe Trident 2 will also be 'scaled down'. Funny how Labour neglected to mention the cost of the war, occupation and Trident when they trumpeted the £5000 cost to each family of voting SNP?

Was the war because of oil. Partly. But it was also cowardice. Countries such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and especially China have apalling records of human rights and in the case of China and Pakistan at least have directly threatened or occupied neighbourging countries. But they're too big for Bush/ Blair to get moral about, so why not make friends with them. Saddam was equally heinous but a small fish. That's the reality of Nu Labour US/UK Christian morality for you.

54. Totally agree, we can't just cut and run and leave these poor peaple to pick up the pieces.

So Willie in Wick, do you advocate invading and bombing Turkey in order to stop the ethnic cleansing of the Kurds, who after all were also our 'allies' against Saddam? A tricky one that.

I agree with #48 and #41, also with #20, #19, and #15 and with #11, #2, #3 and #5.

Should we form our own Agreement Party??

Aye, ma faither and ma faither's faither and ma mither's mither voted Lab............! Some folk just don't give a monkey's!

#60 Ethnic cleansing where ever it happens has to stop by whatever means Alex Salmond wasnt up to the job

Come on you lot,you have shot the man down before he has even started,at least give him a chance to proove himself.If he fails to deliver on this one then by all means get the knifes out,but at least have the decency to wait and see what he does.

Very well, #14, all a proto-Commi needs to do is call his approach "new" to become an acting proto-Fascist. We have long since known that extremes/extremists are not always that far apart.

I want to join the agreement party. Good luck Eddy.

So what, then, is the net achievement of the British invasion of Iraq ?

#63 Phil

The most frightening thing of all is the fact that they do not understand that the Labour party their "faither and their faither's faither and their mither's mither " voted for, does not exist any more.
Unfortunately there is a large percentage of the population who are completely and utterly incapable of looking at facts , obtaining information, and then making their own decisions.

...under a plan to rebuild support among disillusioned Labour voters.

-------

Labour voters first.

People of Iraq, second.

68. Distruction!

#4, #6

Agreed, but why should we do anything for Bush when he suckered us into this war?

Yane, Conan and Scott. The YL was in hospital in Glasgow, so that kept me occupied for quite a while. She's now in hospital in Lewis, so I'm spending a lot of time there too. And, of course, I had been scuppered by the Pravda censors.

65. caledonia, land o burns

"Come on you lot,you have shot the man down before he has even started,at least give him a chance to proove himself."

He has already proved himself to be an accomplished pickpocket, and has made more money from raiding pensions than Maxwell ever did. Thanks to his stealth taxes, the government take on GNP is perilously close to the confiscatory level of 50%. Furthermore, because of the inefficiency of his regime, billions more have to be paid by the private sector on pensions, health care, education etc for which ample funds were available already. Let's not even get into the cost of the foot and mouth fiasco or the human costs of the illegal wars abroad.

He takes more of our earnings than we do.

Add to this his criminal complicity in Iraq, and it is clear that he is unfit to hold any office.

He's had his chance and blown it and should go directly to gaol with his fellow criminal Blair.

Totally agree, with those who say this is a whitewash,
Brown, in trying to woo back voters will win no sympathy.
He is doing no more than causing further alienation of the British people.
Definately, looking untrustworthy and not fit to rule a nation.

Comment 11 re war

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?
tid=53&id=370792007

I think we should remember that Blair, Brown and Cameron (and his fellow-travelling Tories) were all involved in getting us into Iraq. Sadly our system makes it inevitable that we will elect one pro-war party or the other.

Comment 11 re war

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=53&id=370792007

I think we should remember the Blair, Brown and fellow-travelling Cameron all took us into Iraq.
Sadly with our electoral system we are bound to elect one pro-war party or the other.

Sir,

If Gordon wants to rebuild trust with his natural Labour supporters, he could withdraw before the end of this year all 7100 serviceman in the gulf.
And in order not to damage the relationship not with Bush but with the U.S., he could trasfer almost all of them to Afghanistan.

Saw the National Theatre of Scotland's "Black Watch" last week over at Dingwall. That show must have handed a few thousand votes to Alex Salmond, as it recreates an interview he gave on the Today programme, pointing out that 800 Scottish soldiers were being sent to do the work that several thousand American troops had failed to do.....and made you realise all over again the corrupt insanity of the Iraq war. So if you're reading this, Mr Salmond, I hope your government will continue to support the arts sector to the hilt.
Any one who sees the show will know, if they didn't know before, that we should get our troops out of Iraq now, today, and not wait a minute longer."For petrol and porn" ( to quote the play) is not a valid reason for any war.

Then let's impeach Blair and find out why the Dr was murdered? Blood on yor hands PM? The whole bloody lot of you who supported this war are accountable.

Been there, done that, none of you politicians are learning from history.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

World Peace..........long struggle but who knows?

SAOR ALBA

#54 & 59 why should we care about Iraq, we should never have been there, weare not wanted there now and are not improving things , so we should get out and let them sort it out themselves.
They will do that anyway as they have always done in the past.
Our money would be much better spent on the poverty and illhealth in our own country.

If reports in the press last week are to be believed, TB is shortly to officially join the Church of Rome. May we, his humble subjects at home, and the many victims of his policies abroad, be promised that his first act in church be to seek forgiveness for his sins?

83. we helped create the mess these people are in, I agree we shouln't of been there in the first place,but we are.

#39 -
I agree with 20, 19, and 15 who in turn agree with 2, 3 & 5. I also agree with 11 who agrees with 5, 3 & 2 although I believe not necessarily in that order. I'm not fussed about the order and would probably be happy with a random choice.

#61 -
I agree with #48 and #41, also with #20, #19, and #15 and with #11, #2, #3 and #5.
Should we form our own Agreement Party??

.........I agree!

It's all a question of priorities.. The UK is a country which according to the latest report on global competitiveness is a country in apparent terminal industrial decline with low investment levels and a very unhealthy economic imbalance.

That the Govt deliberately chose to spend many £bn on the Iraq adventure rather than invest it in infrastructure, R&D etc is something I find quite incredible.

#61 & 86 Agreed

Pulling the troops out of Iraq is scheduled anyway - he is just going to take credit for a fate accompli!
The soldiers will be happy to get back to Germany and start earning the front line money instead of the peacekeeping money they are getting while in Iraq and Afghanistan - while their families are still living in Germany with German costs of living on the lower income!

'Gordon Brown either believed Tony Blair on the issue of WMD and going to war, or went along with him not having the guts to speak out that there was not the evidence of WMD. If agreeing why did he fail to examine the evidence with great care as there were obviously lives at stake both Iraqi and others and without doubt an increase in terrorist activities.

Gordon Brown should come clean to gain some respect from the British community and other countries.

#56 Willie

Well done for reminding us that Alex Salmond would have left the ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia unchecked.

If the definition of a warmonger is -one who makes war; what is the term for one who has power to intervene in genocide (or its more euphemistic term, ethnic cleansing) but deliberately stands aside - or who advocates to others that they should stand aside?

So the SNP's molehill of 'moral high ground' has already crumbled.

The SNP also wants Scotland to join a plethora of small and not so small rich countries who want to spend lots of money on themselves and little for their own defence. Not only true for defense at home but also the ability to interdict dangerous individuals, groups and regimes abroad.
These states, instead, rely on the taxpayers of other states to provide their ultimate security. How much of Europe- for instance - is dependent upon the US 'nuclear umbrella'. Then there is the continued reliance on the USA to provide the bulk of conventional forces for European protection.

There is something that stinks of hypocrisy - in a party or state which decries nuclear weapons whilst relying, for their wealthy lifestyles and security, on the same weapons in the hands of allies.

I wonder how the SNP suporters would feel if the USA, UK and France suddenly and unilaterally decided to disarm all nuclear forces. Just think - no more WMDs in Scotland!
Perhaps the thought of living in a world militarily dominated by Russia, China, North Korea, India, Pakistan, Israel and Iran (soon to be)- would be preferable!

"According to a new State Department report, the number of terrorist attacks in Iraq jumped 91 percent from 2005 to 2006, many of the attacks planned and executed by al-Qaida, and several of those attacks using deadly chlorine gas. That's right, people: Iraq and al-Qaida, working together with weapons of mass destruction... finally Iraq has become the country we thought it was when we invaded."

-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show, May 11-12.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/bldailyfeed3.htm

Seriously, if we had left Saddam Hussein in power, things would be much better. He may not have been the ideal leader of the nation of Iraq, but he was the only political leader in the Middle East who was not a religious fanatic, whereas the Shiites now in power are all religious fanatics.

And now, when we have made the situation far worse than it was before the illegal war, the UK and the USA want to pull out? Where's the logic? Oh, that's right, it's all about political prostitution in order to win re-election, rather than having the chutzpah to do what's necessary.

We have here a continuation of spin, an indication of the chicanery and play on words to come.

Aye, Right !!............not a cheep fae Hen Broon a' these years aboot the war..........noo' wur expectit tae believe that all of a sudden it's time tae go !!
Gordie Son.......it's AEWAYS been time tae go....we should be hundreds of soldiers better off if YOU had any B***s, ...........ya scunner !!

# 64Willie Macleod, # 91Dennis, North Isles

"If the definition of a warmonger is -one who makes war; what is the term for one who has power to intervene in genocide (or its more euphemistic term, ethnic cleansing) but deliberately stands aside - or who advocates to others that they should stand aside?"

A fair enough question, Dennis. I take it that the pair of you have been campaigning tirelessly - between taking cheap shots at the SNP - for a military policing action by the U.K. in Dafur for the last several years. NO! Thought not. Neither, of course has the puppet in London, or the puppet master in Washington, so don't lets have any more of your holier than thou drivel about opposing genocide. Blair and Brown went into Iraq because of oil. And they are doing nothing about Dafur because of oil, and the fact that they don't want to upset the Chinese, who are there because of oil.

As I have said before on these boards, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Blair and Brown don't qualify, and neither do their posting lapdogs. You are critisising a man who had convictions, and stood up for them whether they were popular at the time or not. This may be a difficult concept for Labour hacks, but there are those who live by actual beliefs.

"GORDON Brown will remove all British forces from Iraq before the next election under a plan to rebuild support among disillusioned Labour voters."

Interesting choice of words there! Although this is probably an accurate assessment of Gordo's priorities in terms of a withdrawal from Iraq. Dead and maimed Iraqis don't tend to vote in Dunfermline East ...

#95 Ronnie W

You disgust me - you criticise and campaign against those who promote freedom in Iraq - then you criticise the same people for not doing anything in Darfur.
Yet the reason why we can't move on to the later is that YOU are giving us such a hard time for the former.
YOU are to blame for the inaction in the later - not the people you criticise.
How do YOU justify doing nothing for the people of this world who have less freedom than yourself; or else explain why these people deserve less freedom than your average SNP supporter.

It looks as though the New Labour electioneering has started already at Westminster.

It's just a pity that those troops were sent there in the first place and for that, Gordon Brown and the rest of his New Labour cronies should be shouldering the blame for that along with B.Liar.

For that reason, the sooner that Scotland becomes independent, the better that it will then be for all of us because that way, Scotland will then be able to decide for itself whether or not, to send troops to a particular location.

I agree with #13 regarding #2 #5 #9 but aginst 61 otherwise 12 is right and #15 could be. *6 regarding 41 and 29 for opposing err something

#95 RW

The situation in Darfur and other poor regions of the world is a monstrous stain on the morals of the international community, who could and refuse to intervene.
In Yugoslavia the western community stood by until finally being shamed into action. There was never any question of an 'oil motive'. That's what makes the SNP's and Salmond's stance so sickening.
Just because the free democracies are not consistent in their support of oppressed peoples - the SNP response is -essentially - if we cant help all, then let them all rot!

The SNP and its drones on this board trot out the continual mantra of Blair/Bush's illegal war.... war for oil ...etc etc. They quite forget the effect of this continual cant on the will of democracies to intervene against other tyranical and murderous regimes.
After a while the media takes up the same mindless chant - and does the work of the fanatical islamist (and other anti-democratic crackpots around the world) in undermining the will of free peoples to spend their blood and money for the freedom of others.

The Scottish soldier is world renowned for steadfastness, loyalty and courage. There are many who are, and have been, out in Iraq and Afganistan. They ask for nothing more than that they are ably led and equipped to do a job which many see as making a difference to ordinary people in those countries who are caught up by forces they cannot control.

So far Salmond, in opposition, and for his own political ends, has done nothing but undermine the reasons of the Scottish soldier for being there. Now as FM it is his primary responsibility to shut up the anti- Iraq, Afganistan rhetoric and concentate on supporting the Scottish soldiers in the field.

By the way RW you obviously had no answer for the other issues raised in my post.

Are we to be conned by this? It could be three years to the next election, which means Brown will be responsible for keeping the UK involved in Iraq for another three years. That will allow Bush,Chenney and Blair another three years to plunder the Iraq oil resources. and will probably cost the lives of many more thousands.

This exposes Brown as a cynical manipulator. He backed the war to stay near power, he paid for the war and now he is trying to benefit by trying to dissassociate himself from it and make it look like it was simply a Blair thing. Brown knew Blair lied and went along with it.

As for some of the morons on here who are trying to attack Salmond regarding Kosovo. It was the Rambouillet accord and intervention by France, UK and the US, then NATOP that triggered it. The ethnic cleansing happened after Salmond made that speech - if they'd listened to Salmond it wouldn't have happened and so he was proved correct. But like Brown why let the truth of the suffering of hundreds of thousands of people get in the way of a tasty bit of character assassination?

Some of my fellow Scots embarrass and sicken me.

While I don't agree we should be there in the first place, the agenda for withdrawal should be set by the needs of Iraq, not the desperation of GordyB to be elected (I nearly said reelected).
I suspect this will rebound. Thatcher got reelected because of a positive result in the Falklands. No matter what, this will (rightly) be portrayed as negative.

104

You can try and rewrite history all you like but it won't wash. To many people actually remember the events and Salmond's comments as they happened.

why oes he need time to pull out. If you can move in at a moments notice citing military efficiency then the reverse must also hold true.

So lets get this straight. He's going to withdraw the troops before the next election - why?

Because the war is wrong? - NO!
Because we cannot win the war? - NO!
Because we are fighting an enemy that we didn't start out fighting? - NO!

Because he wants to win the next election? - YES!!!

Cynical B****** - and I don't mean me!!

If Brown follows through with this, it's good news. The occupation of Iraq is failing and the sooner our troops are out of there, the better. They should never have been sent in the first place, but a rapid reduction in numbers will do for starters. Then get the rest out as soon as.

The nu-labour drones on here make me want to vomit; been nowhere, seen nothing and done nothing. I served in NI, Belgium, Germany, UK, Hong Kong, Abu Dhabi and Oman and am in close contact with some of my erstwhile colleages. With the exception of 2, out of 23, all are of the opinion that this war in Iraq was/is criminal. And a question on Brown; why would anyone trust a man who, given the opportunities in this last decade, would not usurp blair but rather sulked like a wee boy on his room moaning that 'it's my ball, and I want it now! He has no bottle and is as phony as tony. No-bottle Brown...

I came on to this topic hoping to disagree with a few people. however I find that there is a rash of agreement which throws my intentions into disarray. The fact being I also agree with all those agreeers I agree with #20, #19, and #15 #2, #3 & #5 also #11 and #48 also I agree with #110 if that becomes the number of this post and possibly #120 but only if they agree with all the other agreeers.

Until this breaking news (Brown to bring UK Forces home from Iraq) I was convinced that Brown was a New World Order adherant.
If Brown does not attend their upcoming Cabal in Ankara (from 31st May to 3rd June), I will be happy to accept that maybe Brown really will start to put the interests of the Real Labour Party and.... with a little bit of extra luck.....the interests of the UK, ahead of those Globalists who don't mind how many 'other' people have to die to protect corrupt, Corporate fascism.

Would you be proud to have Kissinger, Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld running your business or function?

The Bilderberg VIP list reads like a Who's Who of Notoriety. They are among the people who ultimately controlled Blair, possible from before the time he was parachuted into politics in order to influence UK Government policies, in the interests of US Corporate Globalism.

Is it possible that in Brown we now have a Caretaker PM, in a similar way to John Major who took over the reins from Thatcher?

If a truly serious national issue were to occur, surely Brown, as Caretaker PM would be ideally suited to head a Crisis Cabinet?
If such an occurrence took place, I hope the doors to the Cabinet would be firmly
bolted against Blair, who would then be free to do what he does best, feathering his own nest.

In the meantime, let us hope that Gordon gets his Caretaker Prime Ministerial priorities in the right order.
If he can show by every example that he will act in the interests of the British people, (rather than US fat-cats), and if he can be seen to be anywhere but in Turkey during 31st May to 3rd June, then maybe he will have done sufficient to demonstrate to the British Electorate that his Party ("Real" Labour) is one that will bring him to power democratically, to succeed the sad shambles of the current, self-serving Party that is the Blair Legacy.

Bringing British troops home from Iraq will be a great first step

Phil C 63
Your ancesters still have EXCELLENT memories. Have a word with them, you will learn a lot.

106

You are not proved correct because you accuse someone else of rewriting history as you yourself can do the same. Yes many people do remember the events well and Salmond's comments and not the way you do.

Perhaps Salmond wasn't vindicated in the anti-SNP/pro-war media but the historians who graduated me will tell you I'm correct.

The Rambouillet accords were angling for Kosovan independence. If you know the history you'll know that was impossible. As has been proved now; Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia etc. all independent but Kosovo is still part of Serbia. The Yugoslavian government needed assurances, that Kosovo would automatically become independent or part of Alabania and those assurances were not forthcoming. In that situation with all Serbs feeling abandoned by the international community, were told to sign the agreement or be bombed. At this point Salmond warned NATO against it. They bombed and the Serbs began ethnically cleaning Kosovo as a result.

NATO troops were powerless to stop it and NATO, as you said stood by and watched.

Now what was the word you were looking for about those who stand by whilst ethnic cleansing takes place?

Salmond was right even if The Sun and The Retard tried to spin it the other way round. You just believe what you want to believe proving that your rhetoric about ethnic cleansing is not born out of compassion or humanity but out of party political spite.

How revolting.

I saw a documentary last week - from the usual (and now politically correct) anti-bush/blair standpoint - about the plight of women in Afganistan. The presenter was making the case that the much vaunted plan to help women to be treated as more than chattles in the country was a failure. There was obviously some benefit, though, in that the female presenter and camera crew were not having to film in secret from the floor of a shaky old wreck of a car for fear of being arrested and beaten up by the taliban.
The logical conclusion from such an argument is that we should shut up shop there, let the taliban control it again and leave the women to be left in the middle ages.
So don't ever try to help against oppression you might fail. Politicians live an increasing era of safety first - because of the power of negative media and campaigns such as the SNP have waged for years. We will now see increased islolationism on the part of the western democracies - and an corresponding increase in export of terror by islamic extremists and economic and military adventurism by China.

Please place 'not' in the space provided below.

"The Yugoslavian government needed assurances, that Kosovo would *** automatically become independent or part of Alabania and those assurances were not forthcoming."

Cast your mind back to the Falkland war. The SNP didn`t support our troops then, so what is all the concern about them now? Salmond is just a little Weasel, sorry Weasels.

#114

Your arguments are morally bankrupt

101# Dennis, North Isles

Of course there was no oil motive in Yugoslavia. Who said that there was. So oil is completely irrelevant to Salmond's stance on Yugoslavia. Your getting confused.

Oil, on the other hand, was the ONLY motive for the Bush-Blair adventure into both Iraq and Afganastan. Oil pipelines in the case of Afganastan, and oil in the case of Iraq. Plus the U.S. making a fortune reconstructing a country they had just hit with "shock and awe". Learn what these people are really about before ranting, and especially before telling me what I "OBVIOUSLY" am or am not able to comment on.

You want comment on the rest of your post. I'll give you comment.

Questions on your advocating the possession of nuclear weapons:

1) How many people are you prepared to kill directly by the use of even one Trident warhead?

2) How many people are you prepared to burn, maim and condem to a slow death downwind of your target?

3) How long a nuclear winter are you prepared to impose on the world, bearing in mind the horrific death toll involved fom starvation and the total collapse of law and order, not to mention the devastation of the natural world.

4) How much are you prepared to withold from social services of all sorts in this country to pay for this weapon system which you would never be able to use without the specific permission of the U.S.A. In other words, when Washington wanted a patsy for some unacceptable foriegn policy adventure.

And one other final point. This war was NEVER for the freedom of the people of Iraq. If you really think it was I can only suggest that you study a bit of history and discover what really makes your heroes tick.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/anti-Scottish/signatur...

Please visit here and add your voice. We demand a free and un-biased press NOW!

Watcher and Dennis:

Read what a real soldier has to say @110
I'd like to see you muppets spout your rhetoric in the faces of actual soldiers who've got the experience of war.

Watcher: Are you telling me that the SNP opposed war and that's wrong because war is good?

Another unsubstantiated statement from Dennis. Why morally bankrupt Dennis? Because my facts upset you?

You really need to read before you let yer belly rattle. You embarrass yerself and given the exposure this site gets internationally, you embarras your country.

This is another example of nations medling in other parts of the world for their own financial and lifestyle pursuits then leaving a mess when, "it doesn't work out." Look at the empires of Britain, France, Italy, US, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Holland, Russia, etc. The great game continues. When will politicians simply say, "We figured we could sort this out with a minimal incursion but we were wrong. It is out of hand, and by the way, sorry for the hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths, but our voters want our boys and girls back." Leave the morality part out. If morality was an issue then the US and GB would increase their efforts and finish the job. In this case the first to cut and run is Great Britain; but then she has a lot of practice mucking about in other country's affairs. One would expect by now she would have learned.

#119 RW

I can only think that you cannot help but be hooked on the word 'oil' because it is only 3 letters and easy to understand. Otherwise your post is both simplistic and far away from the truth.
Oil may be a factor - yes in that it is part of the economic fabric of life which you and other 'anti-oil' people take for granted. In Afganistan you are conveniently ignoring that fact that it has been a training camp for exporting terror to our own community.
I am no expert on the wider geo -political scene which was present before the invasion of Iraq - but then, I suspect, neither are you.

To you points on nuclear weapons

Of course the answer to 1-3 is None.

The trouble is - of course - that I don't think that we can rely on the same answer from certain world regimes which routinely murder many in their own populations. So why would they care about a few millions of those outside. Such rulers, have to ensure that their own states will avoid destruction so that they can continue to enjoy power, even if an adventure goes wrong. The thought that their state might cease to exist rather spoils that - so they have to think again.

Your point 4

If we want a free society in which we can choose to put aside some of our wealth for wider society - then we first have to maintain that right.
I go back to my earlier point - you would be happier for Putin or the unelected oligarchy in China to decide Scotland's ultimate fate?

#121 Alex (from Madrid)

Your statement that I have no experience of recent wars involving British forces is wrong. I have had close family involved in NI, Falklands, Iraq 1, Iraq 2 and Afganistan. They face danger - which they signed up for. What does undermine them is politicians and others at home making cheap shots.
The number one priority of a soldier is to protect his/her fellow - then to look to wider reasons for being there. It is well known that British forces work best if they can identify how they can help the people they are supposed to be protecting. The attitide of you, Salmond and the rest of the SNP tells the troops that 'you are wasting your lives and time - you can do no good'.

If you and others can't actually help to support the troops, then at least stop undermining their morale.

It’s great for UK politics to have a fresh view with praying hands for the global commitments. In earnest we do what is in the best interest for human rights for the UK and its neighbors in a shared worldview However, nice to know what would plan B be should the Middle East melt down into a fratricide of the Arabs, as well as: Pakistan /Indian/Kashmir/Afghanistan/Persian inter-religious ethnic wars in the spirit of the Middle Ages. What is PM Brown and his foreign service advisors discussing for the fledging leader of the English speaking New Europe of the ‘new/old/whatever/
world order/ disorder of sorts.
I would think that praying hands are great but military leadership and preparations are always a best in the service of diplomatic persuasions. It is always best for readers of major journals to know that we are told in small doses the in depth therapeutics of our age. So keep the senior journals thinking and writing and if we are all back tomorrow
Mr. BRIAN BRADY WESTMINSTER EDITOR / from joejohn nyc

#33
Oil has everything to do with it, otherwise why are we not in Burma, Zimbabwe, or Sudan?

There is an interesting comment on this development by the American Professor Juan Cole. at www.juancole.com where he points out that without the British to keep the lid on Basra the American occupation of points north faced cutting of its fuel supply from the south. If we are to carry on without British support we will need to find more troops, troops we don't have. I wonder if the British announcement this fall will give an opening to the Republicans here (who would love to somehow rebuild support with voters before they face elections in '08) to blame the Brits. for a decision to draw down.

Wait 'til the next election?

Watch it mate, you could also be charged with War Crimes along with Anthonia Blair.

#122 Kenneth

"Look at the empires of Britain, France, Italy, US, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Holland, Russia, etc"

Whoa! Empire? When did the US ever have an empire?

#123 Dennis, North Isles

Yes, my post is simplistic. That is because the question is simple. Are you prepared to destroy the world with nuclear wapons for your "principles"?

You say not. Fine. Your weapons, then, are not a deterrent. Do you think that the people you are afraid of don't know that? So not only are they a waste of resources. They are positioned where they are a constant danger to the largest part of the Scottish population.

On the question as to whether Afganistan was a terror base aimed at Britain, or even the west....I can only suggest, as I have already, that you learn the history of what happened. Watching the BBC documentaty "The Power of Nightmares" would be a good place to start. It's available on Google Video. The answers that provides might be shocking to a trusting soul like yourself, but that is what the political world is all about. NOT principles!

As for "freeing" the people of Afganistan and Iraq, nobody can impose an alien culture on another civilisation. And your "democratic princilpes" are just that. An alien culture to the people of the Middle East. What you like to call "democracy", and which is nothing of the sort, is something which was developed in the west over hundreds of years. You can't impose that. To try is simply cultural imperialism. And that is what you are advocating.

If you really want to talk about helping the people of Iraq to find freedom, start by removing the U.S. veto on the Kurds setting up their own country, as they would most certainly welcome the chance to do. And as an aside, taking the example you are so proud of in Yugoslavia, be prepared to bomb Turkey into the stone-age till they are prepared to give up the land of the Kurds on their eastern borders. These Kurds would love to join with their fellows in a free Kurdistan.

People like you are all talk. If you really wanted to help people gain freedom I would applaud yo

Dennis said "Your statement that I have no experience of recent wars involving British forces is wrong." I didn't say that but typical of you to invent things out of thin air. The man above who WAS a soldier will tell you himself what the demotivating factors are. The big demotivating factor is that they don't believe they should be there and that they believe they are there illegally. The other demotivating factor is the lack of proper equipment to do the job. Old Gordon Brown cutting the budgets and the last major motivating factor fighting for your regiment. The regiments were disbanded at the very point of being at war.

The SNP would not have sent these guys to war. That means many would not be dead now or injured. Families would not be in grief.. A government that cares about its armed servicemen and women is what soldiers want and not liers like Blair and Brown. A government that respects international law unlike New Labour is what soldiers want.

You don't want to accept you are wrong. That Hans Blix was right, that the countries of the UN who tried to stop this war were correct and that Blair lied to asscociate himself with Bush who wanted a war.

This war has caused the uneccessary deaths of 1 million people in Iraq and 0.5m of them were children under 5. The figures for Afghanistan is 4 times that.

Yet, you go on this board and try to emotionally blackmail people into supporting your rhetoric by inferring that the SNP are letting down troops when actual soldiers on this forum tell you that it's your party who is doing that.

We know we are adults when we understand that we must examine our conscience before opening our gobs. We also must realise that sometimes we will feel ashamed of ourselves. You don't have any of those adult qualities. You are lost to us.

#121, I was in the Falklands and i did read what salmond & co had to say in the press when I returned. i never asked what was morally right or wrong I just done my job.
I take it you have never been in the forces?

Hey zigzag, don`t take the war crimes road until you talk to Stefan Tymkewycz`s father.

This could be a vote winner for Brown , he must have seen the YOUGOV poll for Sunday Times last week which revealed "getting troops out of Iraq" as the biggest concern for voters. If he doesn't take note of the 2nd biggest issue, he's toast.

A most revealing poll and indictment of 10 years of misrule.

http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/STI070101006_1.pdf

Its good to see that the new labour leader (designate ) and will send a good kick to bush and cheney where it hurts as a previous writer wrote THIS IS BLAIRS VIETNAM

Hey Watcher,

No, I could never be a soldier. I'm just not the type to take orders from anyone. And the idea of joining a 'British' army is anathema to me. That said I would join a war-effort if attacked by a regime like the Nazis like my grandfather did - a commando who died in Normandy.

It is the responsiblity of a soldier, in international law, to refuse to go to an illegal war. So, maybe you should begin to consider the morality of war.

Perhaps you don't think about whether voting for a party is right or wrong either?

Did 0.5million children die as a result of the Falklands? No. Parralel lost. I know a guy who was badly burned aboard one of the ships that were hit by the Argentinians. He was disgusted by Thatcher's behaviour.

Tell me, what did Salmond say about the Falklands?

The tell my why you accused Salmond of standing aside when people were being ethnically cleansed when I've proved he didn't.

No conscience? No responsibility for what you write? Nothing. And you'll wake up tomorrow and start all over again.

Pulling out the troops or not won't change the fact we are at war with internal islamists and their violent murderous cult.

Watcher

How many war criminals were protected by the 'British' government after WWII? Why did it have that policy? Do you know? Did some members of the 'British' royal family sympathise with the Nazis?

I'd think long and hard before publishing innuendos about Stephan Tymkewycz`s father if I were you. The depths you people sink to.

Truth Finder:

Internal islamists? Will Jews be the next enemy within? Growth in Islamic fundamentalism in Britain was due to the war. It will be reduced as a by-product of stopping the war. These guys are drawn to these ideas because they see so many innocents being killed because of Blair's war.

Chef #76 & 78
You're doing great work, keep it up and the righteous will be vindicated.

#139 Madrid exile

I can see how you choose to be in Madrid seeing as you seem to hate the country of your birth.
Tell me the court of law which convened, heard evidence and declared the Iraq war illegal?

You and your ilk are beneath contempt - and any party which uses the families of the fallen for political purposes is despicable.

How do you think families might feel when self -styled 'judges' like you declare that (as your attitude implies) 'sorry about your son/daughter but they have been involved in a criminal act which has resulted in 0.5 million innocent deaths.'

I've better things to do with the remainder of Sunday.

No 139 - "Growth in Islamic fundamentalism in Britain was due to the war"- so the 2001 "shoe bomber" Richard Read wasn't a Islamic fundamentalist then ?,

How does one identify friend from foe in Iraq these days with coalition forces fighting insurgents from Sunni and Shiah tribes as well as a host of other foreign nations?

#142

Silly you - he was a CIA/MI6 plant, we can't go blaming those nice innocent islamists now can we!

;)

#141

Dennis has finally flipped. What possible connection is there between post 139 and the rant of post 141? Alex stated a simple fact. As before Dennis doesn't seem to like simple fact. They get in the way of political expediency.

What about my "simple facts" about the Kurds, etc., Dennis. Got better things to do now, have you?

The fact is islam is violent and verses can easily be found that condone the murder of non believers i.e 'kaffirs'. Pulling out of Iraq will make no difference to these people or their stone age beliefs.

'Brown readying Iraq troops for withdrawal'

Tony Blaire is one of the best friends of Mr. Bush. When Mr. Blaire went to USA there was no proper good bye.
This is from the UK papers and looked very embarrassing. Whatâ??s more the oil pilferages in the Iraq also raise many questions.

Mr. Bush only said generally that he was responsible for the ruination of Mr. Blaire. There was nothing on Kyoto Protocol or withdraw from Iraq. In fact Iraq did not exist.
Why?

Mr. Bush is pressing the Senate to push the immediate immigration laws of the stay in USA and Mr. Tony Blaire also agree with is. The time to stay before you become AN AMERICAN WILL BE 15 years.
The student two years is will be reviewed and will stay as is.
Is this Human Rights?

The allied forces went together. Basra was peaceful from the beginning of the English landing. The problem was in the OIL rich Kurds and Sunni Triangle.
Now that Blaire wants to withdraw the British troops from the Iraq, why then American troops should stay? They went together created chaos and ought to leave together and leave Iraq to Iraqis even and if Iran has to help. IS THAT true democracy Mr. Bush wanted?

When I look around about human rights, I am suspired they exist only in the book shelves. They are for the elites or the son of the monarch or the daughter of the leaders of a religion.
So what exactly is happening behind the scene?

#59, lia - George W. Bush could not have said it better himself.
The other day, I took your blunt but, I'm sure, kindly meant, advice and went out to "get a life". Lia, you and I both have to get out more. Have you any idea what those things cost? I'll never afford one on my pension!

Their are no innuedos about Tymkewcz`s father only the Truth..he was a War Criminal and if his son refuse to face the fact or try to brush it under the carpet , then he should be veiwed with suspicion ...and for the sake of History we entered WW11 because Poland was invaded not us Poland ..
And now that Brown as said he will withdraw the troops and prove he is listening to the Voters it is still not enough ..most in here who were shouting about it ...are now critising him for doing as they asked him and that was to listen to the people and as for Salmond he voted against helping Kosovo also The former SNP leader Arthur Donaldson plotted to set up a puppet Nazi government in Scotland, according to a recently released wartime spy report. An MI5 file on Mr Donaldson, who led the SNP from 1961 to 1969, claims that he conspired to set up a Vichy-style regime with himself as a "Scottish Quisling" in the wake of Hitler's widely-anticipated invasion.

I DON'T agree with #41 but WILL accept he's NOT woken up to The New World Order Brigade or Bought and paid for secret society numpty agenda merchants that are along for the ride :)

#145 RW

I've seen enough of your angle on things to equate it to the worst of UN type handringing in the background - but actually doing nothing to help oppressed peoples.

The only conclusion to your argument - and one which in my view at least is a major comfort to tyrants and mass murderers - is that we should all look away and do nothing.

Let's all take the view -for instance - that women in certain middle eastern counries want to be chattles, don't want an education, are happy to be sold as brides at 12 - and its none of our business anyway.

We made a mistake in Iraq so Darfur and Ruanda will occur without ANY chance of intervention.

You can't have it both ways.

I don't think that we in Britain deliberately voted in an Adolf Hitler (3 times) in Tony Blair. But if we are expected to believe the (mostly SNP) ranters on here - you would think that we had, and were either culpable or just plain stupid. (Incidently it is the rank arrogance of the SNP supporters that will be their eventual undoing.)

I just decided today - to face up to the usual nat tirade and let others decide if you there is any basis at all to their wild accusations.

Soldier @110 has said that 21 out of 23 soldiers he knows believe the war is illegal. So don't go trying to emotionally blackmail me, try arguing with the soldiers and their families who believe this.

And, I argued to protect soldiers being sent to break international law and risk being tried as war-criminals. People like you went all for it and to expose them to those charges.

You say I hate the country of my birth. Where's your evidence? None. Just spouting rubbish. What has my living in Spain got to do with anything? Are you clutching at straws having splatted your spite all over the forum and being found out.

Dennis, you have to prove a war is legal before you do it, that is why there was all the stramash about Blair's attorney general.

By all means try and engage in debate but think before you publish your twisted vitriol because you'll be exposed and as we can you don't take being wrong very well.

#149

Recently released report, was it? Now I wonder why.

Do you really imagine that if the establishment had anything substantial of that nature on the SNP Chairman at the time they were being shocked rigid by the results of the Hamilton Bye-election and the 1968 council elections that they wouldn't have used it.

The man's dead and can't defend himself. Drop it.

Mr. Brown. Your Excellency to be. I don’t know you and you don’t know me (Thank god). But why did you not go with Tony to cheer the gang to tell them they are there for 15years then they will come back. I mean till earned by Bush and he has Iraq in his hand.
Mr. Brown I don’t know you and you don’t know me (Thank god).
You will need Lorries and Lorries to bring the broken bodies. Blood on the sand for the memory purposes for 21 guns salute, the skulls for DNA and the Iraqis passports to ratify you killed the numbers you have, I mean Tony has. We need proof of Saddam. Have you a sound bullet proof toaster to let us know if Saddam’s head is or it does not exit. Saddam sold the Iraq. Bush bought with Blaire and now Blaire calls this off. In 2025 they will meet in the Hill side in Iran and say “George you were good. Tony thanks a lot for killing the chemical Ali, Here Rice you were good in Syria. The suckers

When the troops leave Iraq folks...all you spineless whining folks...what will history say about us...all of us. It will say we lack the staying power to defend ourselves...just as Bin Laden said. Those of you who have been helping the enemy all these years, while pretending to just want peace, are cowards or fools. Half of you are cowards and the other half fools. You know not of history, nor courage.

To display this degree of weakness, perhaps one must have certain common traits. You depend on the state...any state to provide you with healthcare, or freedom from responsibility, or protection from crippling second hand smoke, and are willing to give up your own joy of achievement for the 'state's small but warm blanket. You disgust me.

Free men, when pushed into a corner by a British king with taxes, a Nazi, an Emperor, a communist strong armed nation, or Islamist fascists are today, capable of horrors that will stun when compared to homicide bombers, airplanes into buildings, or bombs in weddings, churches, or busses. Your weak knee and bleeding heart only serve to dictate that many more innocents will die before the door is slammed on this lunacy.

Idiots like #139+ Alex, Young Dumbass de Drumchapel, who rightly...or wrongly conjures up an image of the classic slope shouldered girlie boy, will be the first to die if not protected, so protect him we will. But oh the tiring burden of suffering his stupidity. Read his posts and decide for yourself if he could...or would defend himself or you.

Enjoy the moment folks...as bewildered leaders come to grips with your blinding lack of backbone or knowledge. Sadly this is but the beginning of a painful period, assisted by your treasonous lacking.

142

No 139 - "Growth in Islamic fundamentalism in Britain was due to the war"- so the 2001 "shoe bomber" Richard Read wasn't a Islamic fundamentalist then ?"

I said "growth", I didn't say it didn't exist before. Can you people not realise you need to have powers of comprehension before you have a debate?

There was antagonism towards Islam before the war. A friend of mine told me in 1990 that after the fall of the Soviet Union that the new enemy would be Islam - how right he was. The US and British support of Israel and the interference in the Gulf led to an early growth in Islamic fundamentalism.

However the latest war has seen that growth accelerate exponentially. Amazing, that there was no problem with Islamic fundamentalism in Iraq before the war and now it is rife. And you drones congratulate Blair for this.

The war has been proven to be a disaster yet you lot are still trying to justify it. The anti-War people were right to try and stop the war from starting and now we have been proven right and you lot still can't just say you were wrong. How pathetic.

failing to resist the goad of Madrid exile

Perhaps your self- style title 'Laird of Drumchapel' says as much about you as your rants.

The attorney general declared the action legal, parliament debated the upcoming action and voted and there has since been no declaration by any properly constituted authority that it was illegal. But that counts for nothing as the 'Laird' has declared it illegal.

It may have (in hindsight) been ill advised or had bad consequences - but that is along way from it being illegal/criminal.

I do hope that you don't generaly go around calling people criminals - otherwise you may have a long and lonely exile.

The withdrawal from Iraq will not stop Islamic Extremist View and to think that is niave , This Extreme Islamic view has been building up since before WW11 The Muphti of Jerusalem was an Ally of Hitler and Islamic extremists view Hitler and the Nazi`s as great heroes and now believe it is time for another Caliphate and The West will bow down to Them and we will have to deal with it ..or all us Scottish women will have to wear Tartan Bhurkas ...

#151

Can't make head nor tail of what you are trying to say. Which oppressed peoples, exactly, do you think Blair was trying to help? The people of Zimbabwe, Dafur, Burma, North Korea, Chechnya? Or was it just the people in countries where there were American oil interests. Oh, I know that you don't like oil to be mentioned, and I can well understand why. I can equally well understand why you don't like to look at the real reason for interest in certain places as opposed to others. You would rather repeat the mantra of the politicians who depend on "the Power of Nightmares" - your nightmares, their power.

Knowing what is really going on can be a bit shocking at first, and hard to accept....but don't, please don't, try to tell me it was all done in good faith for the sake of women in the Middle East.

Interference in other people's country remains interference for whatever reason it is done. You want to change their government, their way of life, to save them from some clamity ...... only the most careful and sensitive policing action in the face of serious terror can ever hope to succeed, and even that is going to blow up in your face if you try to tamper with their basic belief systems. In other words you have to be carrying out the action for the sake of the people concerned, and be ultrasensitive in knowing when they are telling you that enough is enough. I'm afraid that your brand of cultural imperialism doesn't fit the bill.

Phocus,

I did what I could to stop 0.5 million children under the age of 5 die in Iraq because of the actions of a bullying facist like Bush. What about you? You think you're a real man. You think your fascist heroic rhetoric is what real men think. You think because you have a big mouth that you have a big point to make? You are a bully and I tell you something I would fight in a war. I would fight to stop bullies like you dole out mayhem to children and families. Cowardly thugs who bully in the name of what they think is right are the enemy of real men. The real mean who fought the Nazis and not the thugs who thought the Nazis were right to pick on the weak because they believed it is the strong thing to do. Your hate is the enemy of mankind.

Cowards down history used your arguments and had to be defeated by thinking men. We will still be around beating the likes of you for thousands of years because humanity is stronger than hate. Struggling for those humane values is what protects people. You tub-thump because you secretly fear you lack manliness. Your aggressive posturing shows you ain't to comfortable with yourself boyo.

Big Terminator? Na, little muppet.

So whers Gordy been for the past 4 years ? he as chancellor provided the finance for the UK's involvement in Iraq
And all this sudden inicitives on housing, the NHS, education, where for that matter has Gordy been for the past 10 years !!

I have followed this matter with interest and must opine that you Brits are as great a coward as are our own hippy-bred, Clinton-Carter-Kennedyesq freaks! There was a time when Yanks and Brits stood shoulder to shoulder and defeated the then greatest evil on the planet - a little over a half century ago. Now, largely through the efforts of your own hippy freaks and your weak, "I'll do anything for a vote", Chamberlain type politicians, you riot, make speeches, burn cars, make threats and make the world see you exactly for what you are: yet another third world country with leadership stars in your eyes. Don't feel too badly though about deserting people who need defense. My own country reflects your own in its acquired British-style lurid tabloid tastes, its hippy politicians, its "Lets tear everything down and up with Communism" democrats (small case). As you descend into the sewer of your socialism know that you are no alone. Look over your shoulder and you'll see the American democrats shouting just as loud and waving their red banners alongside you.

154
and what of the more than 550.000 thousands killed by the Insurgents ???? by their Brother Muslims in Iraq or the 100`s of Thousands of Muslim Bhunti in Darfur killed and raped by the Muslim Janaweed , Why ??? because they were descendants of Black Slaves that were forced to accept Islam so ...Here is hoping the Janaweed dont turn up in Tanzania then you may suffer the same as they your Black Brothers in Darfur ...

Dennis, the then Secretary General of the UN said it was Illegal. Many countries said the same with the exception of a few, Britain being one of them. How did that happen? The Attorny-General was a Blair place-man and subsequently honoured. Parliament was misleas when it voted as has been acknowledged by the leader of the Tories at the time.

To try and infer that it is just me who believes the war is illegal when a guy above tells you that 21 out of 23 of his fellow soldiers believe that too as well as the most important diplomat in the world and all sorts of international bodies is just twisted. They are all saying that those involved in the war are criminals but you single me out. More fascist-style rhetoric. Single them out for punishment, show them a lesson. You are the dregs.

10 K.Y. So you don't indulge in cheap political point-scoring" then???"

159

What is so wong with a philosophy which tries to help who you can, if you can - and that which admits that you might sometimes make mistakes?

Such a view doesn't prejudge peoples' right to determine what religion or none they might embrace - or what political system. I think that it is a rough appoximation of the liberal domocracies.

My opposition to you RW is that you would call any intervention - which had any power behind it - as cultural imperialism (is this from Mao's little red book?).
It is a short logical extension that you would actually preclude intervention in actual genocide taking place another country as imperialist.

Let's hope that we don't get a real warmongering maniac in London who takes offence at Scottish Nationalism and starts to ethnically cleanse all Scots from the map. According to you all the surounding countries should look the other way as it would be none of their business. Chilling thought!

Papo826,
Take your fantasies elsewhere. The Yanks didn't stand shoulder to shoulder. They profiteered from the war against the Nazis until they were attacked. The Soviets broke thier backs on the Eastern front - a conveniently forgotten fact. More fantasy-heroic tripe from a bullying fascist-muppet.

Boudica,
You are simplifying arguments to back your party. the 550, 000 insurgents who killed wouldn't be insurgents if there had been no war. Are you too thick to get that? Or do you just not care? And, if Bush and Blair care so much why are they not all over Darfur? You need to ask yourself some serious questions.

74 Bill1 Completely agree with everything you've said

#164

Once more..... please point us to the UN resolution calling the war illegal, or show us the properly constituted court ruling it so.

#166

Can't you grasp it. Bush and Blair weren't there to "help" anybody. They were there for geopolitical advantage, and to make money. Period!

Yes, and intervension which tries to change the way other peoples live their lives is cultural imperialism - by definition. And smarmy remarks about "little red books", besides being pointless and stupid, aren't going to change that.

You want to exchange silly examples of hypothetical situations. Fine. Just think of your reaction to the army of a muslim country which had just invaded Britain - for its own good, you understand - trampling all over your country to enforce a different syle of government on you and yours. A style which you thought was wholly and morally wrong. And, while it was at it, enforcing its interpretation of what was morally right on women of your family. If you can really put yourself in that position, and see your own reactions, it might, just might, begin to make more understandable the actions of others when they are put in that position by America's blind belief that they hold the monopoly on moral values (some American's, anyway).

124 Dennis - Not supporting the war is NOT the same as not supporting our troops or are you too dim not to understand the difference? I don't support the war but I do feel extremely sorry for the situation into which the army has been placed and trust that their withdrawal will come as quickly as possible - no thanks to Gordon Brown. He's just a political chancer.

#166

And now, Dennis. I really am off to do other things. It's been nice disagreeing with you.

#166 Dennis

One last though. Nobody in Scotland says "North Isles". Where the hell did you pick that up from?

Anyone remember it was Britain that carved up the middle east to put three rival groups in Iraq and then pulled out? You didn't do for the Iraqis then and pulling out won't help them now. And no, the US isn't getting the oil. France gets a good bit of it.

149 Boudica: How can a son be held respnsible for the actions of his father? What a cruel and irrational assumption.

#121 Alex,what I meant was that Salmond was opposed to Falklands, the SNP were not. The then leader at the time Donald Stewart was all for force to remove the Argentines from the Island.

I'm blasted if I am going to wear a tartan bhurka! It's bad enough wearing a light weight kilt in the hot weather here!

As for the siuation in Iraq:

"Robbers of the world, having by their universal plunder exhausted the land, they rifle the deep. If the enemy be rich, they are rapacious; if he be poor, they lust for dominion; neither the east nor the west has been able to satisfy them. Alone among men they covet with equal eagerness poverty and riches. To robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of empire; they make a desert and call it peace." -Calgacos on the Romans

#149. boudica, Glasgow - "Their are no innuedos about Tymkewcz`s father only the Truth..he was a War Criminal" - no innuendo here just a blantant falsehood. If Bohdan Tymkewycz was a war criminal he would face criminal prosecution in a UK court - he does not because there is no evidnece that he was involved in any war crimes. If you have evidence that he was involved in war crimes sufficient to warrant a Police investigation, please take it to your nearest police station without delay.
I do not believe that you will present any new evidence as you are nothing more than a Labour smear merchant.

Watcher once again tries visit the unproven sins of Stefan Tymkewzyc dad on him. He also disapproves of pregnant women becoming msps. Seems he's got a lot in common with the Taliban !

Boudica - chill oot, go to a darkened room and lie doon and have a rest.

Alex, Young...whatever (#160)

Hey Alex...I don’t think anyone will be lookin to you for a definition of ‘real men' pal. Men and women have had to...and will always have to fight others to protect the likes of you. You hide behind the blood of those that chose death over tyranny and call those that speak the truth ‘bullies’. You are one of what Lenin referred to as "useful idiots". Now, sit still, quiet down, and straighten your skirt. Let the grownups deal with your safety.

157 -" the Attorney General declared the war legal"
He actually hummed and hawed aboot the 'legality' until he was leant on by Bambi.

#89 dont know where u get your pay infromation from but its nonsense pure and simple, that is not how it is done. the soldiers are not Financially
worse off than when serving in germany

Phocus - wtf's a 'real man' ?

Laird of Drumchapel .....No I dont get how you or the Insurgents can Justify killing their own in those sort of numbers and just say it happen because of the invasion as if that makes it right ....Plonker... and it is well documented that most of the Insurgents are foreign fighters but you`ll find some dumb excuse for them ...as long as you can put all the blame on Blair .... No it did not turn out the way they had hoped ..Laird do you forget all the pleading by the Iraqi`s for years before the war ..and do you also forget the worldwide marches asking the West to intervene in Iraq , The media also giving it to all the western Goverments for standing by including the UN and letting Saddam break all the UN resolutions ..It is so sad that it was not resolved and that the Iraqi`s dont have the will to fight the Insurgency and Laird ..The American People thought as you do now about Iraq about WW11 they didnt want involved but they did help us with the equipement for us to at least put up a fight ... you are of the same mind now and look how that ended people being marched into death camps and if werent for the Americans we would all be speaking German and as for Russia and Stalin who kept changing sides and only Hitler attacking Russia saved us from the staying on Hitlers side so look at the whole picture and not just pick out the bits that suit you ...Plonker..

There is no doubt that there is a phased withdrawel plan from Iraq and that is the way to do it.

this cut and run is nothing short of a betrayel off the armed forces this will lead to insurgents increaseing attacks in order to give them the boasting rights of a victory this move will not save lives it will cost more.

a cheap cynical political move from a cheap cynical politician.

185 - "worldwide marches asking the "west" to intervene in Iraq" ????

Shome mishtake shurely ?

Pilrig...if you have to ask...you wouldn't understand and probably aren't one. But I'll give you a hint. He stands up for truth and freedom, he takes responsibility for himself, and he doesn't run and hide when things get tough. I don't think you would hang out with him. Ask your father or your grandfather...I bet they can answer your telling question.

Pilrig
A real man does as his wife tells him ....hehehe

boudica...right on and well said!

189 - well that makes me a real man.

The amount of historic amnesia displayed in this thread is truly breathtaking. Perhaps the best example is this comment: "The real mean who fought the Nazis..." Might I venture to point out that those "real men(sic)" intentionally burned up millions of women and children by firebombing the cities of Germany (remember Dresden?) and Japan and concluded the war by dropping 2 atomic bombs on cities filled with women and children.

#189/190 very true but dont admit it in public!!!!!
the last time someone admitted women are in charge we ended up with Thatcher

What decisions taken means nothing at all. Damage has been done. What a shame !

192 and the altenative that they had?

Whatever decisions taken now mean nothing at all. Damage has been done. What a shame !

Phocus 189 - 'fraid I canne ask my auld man or my grandad , they're both 'broon breid', as we say here.
Well standing for 'truth and freedom' ? yeah I'll go along with that, as long as it isnae the 'male-cattle manure' that politicos such as your Dubya and our Bambi serve up as 'truth'. They wouldnae know truth if they found it in their soup.

"What is truth? "
-Pontius Pilate ( a good Scotman - he was born in in Fortingall in Perthshire)

#56
#91
#101
#106
A little bit of history for you.

I think a lot of posters here are confusing Kosovo with the Bosnian conflict. The Dayton Peace Accord ended the Bosnian conflict four years earlier in 1995.

1n 1999 the only control on the Serbian Army in Kosovo at that time was the presence of OSCE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) Civilian Monitors. Alex Salmond and others warned that their removal as part of the American inspired bombing campaign would lead to disaster. These monitors were withdrawn on the 20th of March 1999 before the bombing campaign started on the 24th. However it was not till the 28th that the bombing was switched from Serbia proper to military targets inside Kosovo, principally because the Americans belatedly realised that they had now unleashed full scale ethnic cleansing in the province. Before this there were refugees from the fighting between the KLA and the Serbian Army but there was no ethnic cleansing, despite the subsequent media hype. It was the bombing campaign and the withdrawal of the OSCE monitors that let the Serbian Army off the leash.

An interesting side note for conspiracy theorists is that only the year before the US special envoy for Kosovo, Robert Gelbard said, 'The UCK (KLA) is, without any questions, a terrorist group,' giving Serbia the green light to crack down on the KLA and ramp up the violence within Kosovo. The end result of the bombing campaign was to create a province which is now ruled by criminal gangs dealing in drugs and women across Europe and where the KFOR force is used to protect ghettos of the remaining Serbs. As the subsequent Iraq debacle has proved, we need more Scots politicians like Alex Salmond who have the guts to tell the truth in the full knowledge that the labour media will try and get them for it.

As for Brown's promise to withdraw the troops in two years, I bet that falls very nicely in with the US army's plan to withdraw i

Dennis,
The illegality of the war is the opinion of many. If you disagree with that opinion, why don't you present your argument? I would present mine but I know you won't listen or treat my opinion courtiously.

I'm becoming alarmed at the amount of reactionary bile on this forum. I expect some of it from Scots but this is a new breed. I will now be watching for any growth in extremist reactionary organisations being set up.

Oh my God davidtourist Tis your...your...lack...that is breathtaking. Ladies and gentlemen, buckle up. With the likes of Alex, Pilrig, and now the obviously vacant davidtourist, we are in for a wild, wild ride. This might be time for a prayer here. Say em if you got em. Sheesh...what twits...empty headed twits.

#198 In a word nonsense no ethnic cleaseing in Kosovo pre march 1999?
the reason for the monitors in Kosov in the was exactly because there was ethnic cleanseing going on.
Alex Salmond himself acknowledged that . It was there effectivness in preventing such acts and the blatant disregard by the serbs for that and other measures by the UN and EU that lead to Direct Intervention and rightly so.
Some times politiceons make mistakes this was one of alex salmonds.

Willie of Wick 64#rewites history. The FACTS are as follows.
1 The conflict in Yugoslavia was encouraged by outside forces who manipulated ethnic divisions,mainly American CIA interference.
2 The KLA was recognized as a terrorist organisation by the US state dept up to 18 months before the bombing campaign of 1999 that Alex Salmond in my view rightly opposed
3 After the KLA was installed in KOSOVO by NATOs bombing campaign 200 000 serbs were ethnically cleansed so Blair did not prevent ethnic cleansing he merely replaced one set by another
4. The average life expectancy of people in Yugoslavia fell significantly after NATO bombing
5 Significant environmental damage including the spreading of cancer creating DU depleted uranium (from DU weapons) was the result of these illegal actions
6 I say illegal because it was not specifically authorised by the UN
7 We were told that the purpose of the attack on Yugoslavia was humanitarian however in the light of points 4 and 5 this is exposed as a lie.
8 UP TO 50,000 CIVILIANS WERE KILLED IN BLAIRS FIRST CRIMINAL WAR OF AGGRESSION OF 78 DAYS AND NIGHTS OF BOMBING OF NOVY SAD BELGRADE ETC. WE HAVE TO BE WARY OF THOSE WHO CLAIM THEY WILL MAKE THINGS BETTER AND ARE ALL HUMANITARIAN AND END UP WITH POINTS 4,5 AND 8 AS THEIR RESULTS. YOU SEE IF SOME ONE IS GOING TO MAKE THING BETTER THEY MUST MAKE THEM BETTER IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY NOT START VANDALSISING OTHER PEOPLES COUNTRIES. THE FACT IS THAT THE GOVTS OF IRAQ YUGOSLAVIA AND AFGHANISTAN HAVE MADE NO ATTACK ON THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY. MY MESSAGE TO ALEX SALMOND IS THAT HE WAS ENTIRELY RIGHT TO OPPOSE THE WAR WITH YUGOSLAVIA, NOW PERHAPS GIVEN THE INCREASING NUMBER OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN AFGHANISTAN YOU MIGHT LIKE TO OPPOSE THAT MISADVENTURE. LETS KEEP THE ANTI WAR FORCES STRONG IN BOTH ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND. WE HAVE EFFECTIVELY FORCED THE REMOVAL OF THE WAR CRIMINAL BLAIR AND HIS SUCCESSOR BROWN IS NOW RIGHTLY REPOSITIONING HIMSELF RE

#203 What a rant, lets us use the lessons history teaches us,

1st world war started with violence in the Balkans.

2nd world war came about due to appeasement and the very attitude of non involvement you advocate

For Evil to flourish good men only have to do nothing.

i totally agree with all the dicks. gordon brown is riding the waves and playing you people. blair got shafted for his alliance with war criminal bush and brown will be no different if he should ever be elected.

#200, Outer Phocus - Is your town named after Prescott Bush, the Shrub's grandpappy, who financed Hitler from 1924 to 1942, when stopped by FDR for 'trading with the enemy'? The US had finally been dragged into the 'fight for freedom' but grandpappy was still Hitler's banker!

So... Shrek 3 says he'll pull the UK out of Iraq, eh? Must have killed enough people already, then. This noble move certainly can't stem from the courage of his convictions; because, if that were the case, he would - like better people - have objected or resigned a long time ago.

It was Britain who divided up the whole region to start with, Israel,even Kuwait. Once they had exploited the oil, they cut and ran.
Earlier a blog spoke of Viet Nam. The French exploited this region in the 1940's.
The UK has exploited Hong Cong for the opium trade, Indonesia for the silk trade.
India and Ceylon (Sri Lanka) for the tea.
You British have been meddling in every area of the world, and now you cut and run?

#139 alex

"Internal islamists? Will Jews be the next enemy within? Growth in Islamic fundamentalism in Britain was due to the war. It will be reduced as a by-product of stopping the war. These guys are drawn to these ideas because they see so many innocents being killed because of Blair's war."

You say this with real conviction, "These guys are drawn to these ideas because they see so many innocents being killed because of Blair's war." You obviously believe this. If you are right and the coalition withdraws then there should be peace.

What if you aren't right? What is the war is the result of radical Islamic fundamentalism and began long before oil was discovered in the Middle East? Suppose the Blair and Bush, far from causing the problem are fighting it? Suppose, when your troops have returned home to Britain, the Imams start saying, "we have won! We have driven the infidels from Iraq now we will complete the conversion of the British to Islam the same way we got them to leave Iraq, the Koran or death."

Because, if you are wrong and your troops withdraw, that's what you're going to get.

#210 overlooking the activities of the Turks in teh region are you not1!!! why?

zzzzzzzzzzPictus #8 You're a real comedian. It's named after an author who wrote about the civil war. Other than that, did you have a point...or just zipping one past the thinking folks?

#210, Sambo - Here I've been thinkng "deep south" must be some place like, perhaps, Dorset. Now I see you come from that part of the world where the police have such a hard time solving crime - everyone's DNA is the same and there are no dental records.

It might be of interest to some of you that the concensus here in the Middle East is that US/UK should announce a withdrawal date from Iraq and let the Middle East sort out the mess that they made of Iraq, most people here believe that the very presence of foreign occupiers means their will never ever be an end to the violence.

I tend to agree myself, the longer the US and the UK are in Iraw, the more the violence will escalate.

#211 Exactly

Extremeist involved in the july 7 bombing were in Afghanistan training camps years before the invasion of Iraq and 9/11

You really don't get is do you?
China messed up world domination during its dinastic? period because it was content with the very large area it had to lmanage. How many Centuries ago?. The western world, full of arrogance, took a dominant role and raided the East and brought back the best the important western consumers would buy, be it spices ort artifacts. That was initiated by European nations and then the USA got in on the ACT - which leads us to today.
Yes look where China is now, does not need the arrogant west and can play politics with minorities the bom the west...

There are many more consumers out East than West. If you are Western, dedicated to that culture, be prepared to live an impoverished life. Oh! and try telling those who have not had the benefit of the Western excess how to use their energy and those little plastic bags so long regarded as essential by western consumers. consider being International in culture if you plan to enjoy a comfortable life.
Gordon Brown, full of humility (his body language makes me uncomfortable, like Blaire's eyes) has a single personal goal - power.
The war shows clearly the West has no power. Blah! Wake up and feel the ANGER against the West and make plans to be part of the real world. So much damage to repair so many angry people oppressed by the West for so long.
I am Scottish from probably from Scandinavian blood 5 generationa ago. Yes one of you......

Florence
When the Son makes out his Daddy was in the SS just to fight for the freedom of Lithuania and didnt take part in any attrocities ..so if we are to beleive the son ..His daddy was marching around Poland in an SS uniform spreading love and freedom ...By the way ..how are things in Lalaland ..

57Nomad #211

Your post should be required reading! Alex will be one of those running beside our victorious troops when we liberate the British again.

#215 apart from the fact most of the violence is between the sunni,s and shi,ites?
the presence of coalition troops not just uk/us polish ,danish australiann Italian etc. is merely getting in there way. who will you blame then

Yup your correct. Typing properly spelt words is not my thing!

220. Thistledhu

I live in one of the most divided Sunni / Shia countries in the Middle East, all is well, BUT throw in an occupier to divide the country and well you would have another Iraq.

The US and the UK have been the most vocal in the international arena, it is they and their citizens that are singled out. The US are in the beginning stages of their Vietnam 2, and Tony Blair is the puppet who went along with it, shame I say.

And for some who look upon the Shia / Sunni divide, hark back to the inquisition, the puritans etc. This region is needing support not condemnation, we in our Western nations have gone through the same thing albeit eons ago.

A welcome move if true.

People of all race and ethnicity in Middle East, from the coast of Lebanon to the end of Pakistani boarder, have suffered throughout the modern history because of three social political and economic facts that has been the matter to western social “elite” which without any respect for others and where they been calling themselves a “civilization” or a “modernized” world. The very obvious one is the double moral and standard of “Anglo Saxon-ism” foreign policy where the English and Americans policies in the region been to criminalize the people uprising yet continue their militarism approach and call it “Democratization”.

Their historical willingness to lie and deceit its own people to start any kind of wars or support coup d'états in Middle East, yet calling it “We help these people” is yet another. The final element - enemy of the people has been the religion and by that I mean those who have been selling their sole to the feudalism or fundamentalism in any religious, Zionism is another. In the other hand, the double moral or the double standard is the nature of capitalism and must exist within its system, so when someone like Tony Blair or Gordon Brown names the “Labor Party”, one needs to ask, “what labor party”… labor class is not a lying social element, this class has nothing to lose, in the other hand the elite class has everything to lose, power, money and above all their fraudulent social statue; therefore, they will lie to keep that statue and meanwhile fooling the working class calling them “Labor Party”.

#170 Ronnie W

"Just think of your reaction to the army of a muslim country which had just invaded Britain - for its own good, you understand - trampling all over your country to enforce a different syle of government on you and yours. A style which you thought was wholly and morally wrong."

Let me get this straight, Ronnie W. You are saying that the Iraqis were happy and content being slaves to a lunatic dictator? Would you be happy being the slave of a lunatic dictator? You wouldn't be, but they would be? Is that it?

The Iraqis lack your sophistication and intellect and are not really the same species of human that you are? Not quite developed enough to hold the reigns of self-government? A bunch of ignorant peons who need to be governed by force because they're too stupid to do it themselves? Is that it?

Racist!

#222 Maisie
are you seriously suggesting that on withdrawal of coalition troops( which will happen) the Sunnis and Shia will shake hands and sit down and have a cup of tea and say well that was intresting wasent it!!

#213, phocus - With the clowns running the circus, one has to be a comedian these days or go completely bonkers. If I had a point, it was that Bush's grandfather was probably a traitor - but who cares? I'll look up Prescott and see what he wrote about the Civil War. Thank you.

227. Thistledhu

No I am not suggesting that BUT I am saying that the UK and the US through pure ignorance opened a pandoras box.

229 Maisie A box that has never had the lid on!!
Iran/Iraq war ring any bells

the Hussain/SUNNI control over Iraq would have came to an end eventualy the diffrence being the power vacuum left would make the present situation seem like a tea party.

Would you stop with the "secretary general of UN said it was illegal, so there" silliness? That man was (and still is) an idiot and has no legal standing to unilaterally declare anything illegal, except his parking tickets, which he ignores under "diplomatic immunity." He was elected to do good and ended up doing right well for himself and his family. But he's not a legal scholar and his pronouncements were by and large gibberish.

230. Thistledhu

I back off now thisledu, cos I dont think you have ever lived here, people here are EXACTLY the same as in the UK, many classes, may ideas..... I have to say I despise Islam, I do not consider it a religion, it is a cult BUT the people are actually not like you read about in the Sun. They are real people just like us, rich and poor etc

I have been in the middle east although admittedly for only 6 Months i am not a sun reader I understand you do not agree with me but give me some credit id rather read the beano.

#226 57Nomad,
I agree absolutely, Britain has spread sectarianism throughout the world. It's still very apparent in modern Scotland with the Catholic/Protestant crap that I grew up with.
Pictus # 214
I live in the deep south, Alabama. My DNA doesn't go straight up, I'm probably more Scottish than you are. As for solving crime I'm not sure where you're coming from. One thing our criminal system here is not a revolving door.

233. Thistledhu

On the subject of the Middle East then, we should agree to disagree, I have been here for 17 years, I despise the 'religion' but understand how a cult can take over in the name of religion, how is it I can see this but the vast powers of the US cannot? Iraq was a disaster of the US / Uk's making, now lets see them get out, squirming, trying to find some dignity

233 Ok Maisie but just one last point Iraq was a ticking time bomb. the coalition tried to defuse it.

Iraq is in too a strategic position to ignore it.

The morals of that are a diffrent matter

Maisi, I gather you are in the middle east on humanitarian reasons?
Surely you couldn't be there making money?

No, I am not making money Sambo, but while I am here I can see, all is not right, life here isnt much different from the UK, poverty, unemployment etc BUT talking to ordinary folk, all will be okay, just lets give them a chance to catch up by 400 years

Phocus 213 - now I don't believe you - your home town is named in honour of our deputy Prime Minister, the Rt Hon John Prescott MP aka Two Jags.
He'll be sorely missed when the Broon Administration kicks off, if only for the fun and laughs he gave us, the perfect antidote to Dour Broon.

Actually Maise I spent 3 years in Kuwait and a year in Egypt. I understand the Arab mind and actually speak quite a bit of Arabic.
People are good, it's the leadership that sucks.
Ma salaam, Sambo.

S*mbo - you're right, the British did spread sectarianism around their empire. They also spread syphilis around Australian Aborigine women.
And they tell us the British Empire was by and large benevolent !

No, I am not making money Sambo, but while I am here I can see, all is not right, life here isnt much different from the UK, poverty, unemployment etc BUT talking to ordinary folk, all will be okay, just lets give them a chance to catch up by 400 years

thistledhu - "Iraq is in a too strategic position to ignore it".

Alas, us Brits don't know when to ignore it, or let go.
British meddling in the Middle East in the past century has been little short of disastrous. For example, T.E. Lawrence tells the Arabs that they should govern themselves - not the Turks, not the Brits and French but Arabs. Around the same time Balfour declares that Palestine should be the homeland of the Jews.
Joined-up thinking. Not.
We should remind ourselves that we are a small island in the North Atlantic, not a Middle Eastern nation.

#136 Alex, you said "It is the responsiblity of a soldier, in international law, to refuse to go to an illegal war. So, maybe you should begin to consider the morality of war".
No it's not. Sorry mate, you don't know much about soldering.

#132 watcher, Hi mate, did you go south in 82? Which unit? I went with 2 Para

#218. boudica, Glasgow - "When the Son makes out his Daddy was in the SS just to fight for the freedom of Lithuania and didnt take part in any attrocities ..so if we are to beleive the son" - Bohdun Tymkewycz served in the 14. Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Galizien which was made up mostly of Ukrainians, so not fighting for the freedom of Lithuania, in fact, I do not think that any elements of the Division even set foot in Lithuania. As I wrote earlier, I he was guilty of war crimes, he would have been prosecuted or at least tried under the War Crimes Act of 1991 as Anthony Sawoniuk was. In short there is no evidence, so your unseemly attempt to smear the son for the non-existant crimes of the father either betrays your ignorance or a willful attempt to misrepresent the truth. Which is it?

#234, Sambo - When someone claims to be more scottish than someone else he knows nothing about, one has to wonder if he is deluded into thinking he is St. Andrew, perhaps.

#210 Sambo, you said, "You British have been meddling in every area of the world,

The United States has done it's fair share of meddling in every area of the world since WWII, bit of the pot calling the kettle black there mate. Oh and if you insist on talking about cutting and running, one word for you mate, Vietnam.

Dear Guga II - ty for the update and I certainly do wish you and yours all the best in the way ahead - hopefully whatever's going on will end up well. Anyway, nice to see you back posting and I look forward to agreeing and disagreeing with you in due course. I am curious about one thing, though - been wondering for years now ..... does the word 'photography' hold any special meaning for you? Cheers.

Jim A,
US General Colin Powell gave a speech at a Brussels NATO conference in which he stated: We don't want to occupy another country, all we ask is a piece of ground to bury our fallen.
Does Normandy ring a bell?

Pictus,
I'm not St. Andrew, I've been there to watch the British Open though.
Yes Pictus I'm Scottish, born and bred, also I pay coonsil tax tae.
I'm coming home next week, tae sort things oot.

Oh, Jim A, I forgot to mention I also fought in Viet Nam, I spent over 20 years in the US Army.
Yes we may have "cut and ran" but it was the politicians, just like the politician who is ready to occupy 10 Downing St.

#251 Sambo, Well as one old soldier to another (I served 22 years and saw some as well) I salute you but enough of the kettle calling the pot black please mate.

Jim A,
I salute you, thank you for your sevice.

This is going to make Bush push the panic button.

We can expect a false flag terror outrage to put all others in the shade at any time ... to get the 'wayward' best allies back on track and toeing the line again!
PLUS Bush is itching for an excuse for the next WMD lying farce with Iran in his sights this time!

Well I don't know what other folks think about all this though the opinions on here give me a pretty good idea. Myself I think as soon as Saddam was toppled we should have got out. Some will say if we had done that there would have been a civil war, well what we have now in Iraq looks pretty close to a civil war to me only our troops are stuck in the middle getting picked off. Heck look at Afghanistan, the Afghans were given military aid to force out the Russians and we ended up with the Taliban and now we're fighting them. I served in Oman for a couple of years and the thing I came to realize was it's not about Isalm it's tribal, my tribes more powerful than your tribe. This tribal thing has been going on for thousands of years long before a European ever set foot in the middle east and it will still be going on thousands of years for now because they simply don't like each other. Ok they hate us more than they hate each other, but the fools can't stop killing each long enough to unite against us. Look away from Iraq towards the rest of the middle east, Arabs fighting Arabs. Please don't anybody tell me it's all the fault of the west, as I said already they have been doing this for a long time, long before westerners arrived on the scene. This war isn't worth one single soldiers life regardless of nationality. Saddam is now gone, if these folks don't have the sense to live with each other in peace then that's their lookout. Withdraw our troops, let them decide for themselves, and when they get done doing what they have to do just leave us alone or......... ;-)

Gordon Brown is doing the right thing - at last.

Thomas Hobbes, Philosopher informed the first right of man is to seek peace so far as he/she can attain it. The second right of man is to defend him/herself.

Blair got off on the wrong foot. Yes, Saddam Hussein was a bad person but he had a stable country. Saddam won the moral highground early on when he consented to Hans Blix doing inspections in Iraq. Where Blair/Bush went wrong was not letting Hans Blix complete his inspections, thereby setting down a false premis for war - WMD in 45 minutes. If they had sought peace so far as they could attain it - then they should have allowed Hans Blix to complete his inspections. By failing to do so they lost the war before it even started.

Now the best thing to do is admit where we went wrong and get out. Iraq is sensible enough to stabilise itself once we leave - after all we are only doing what they are asking us to do - leave.

If that works then fine. If it doesn't then we can always go back in again to peace keep.

He (Broon) has being saying today that it was not a mistake to go into Iraq....

How in the name of God can he say that...??

It was a huge mistake and the ramifications will haunt us for many, many years to come.....

#256 Lesley, Hi Lesley, you said "Saddam Hussein was a bad person but he had a stable country".
Lesley, Saddam was a nutcase and if Iraq was a stable country is was only made so through means of fear, murder and torture. I'm sure you have seen some of the videos coming out of Iraq, of the beheadings, beatings, strapping explosives to people chests then blowing them up. Yep very stable. As I said in my last post, it's tribal, always has been always will be. Heck even most of saddams goverment and military commanders were from the same tribal background as the man himself. I hope he's rotting in hell.

#243 Pilrig, Why cant we ignore the middle east?

switch your lights of TV, PC, etc sit in the darkness and imagine hospitalls and factorys in the same situation.

Like it or not ignoreing the middle East is not a option.

#259 Thistledhu, only as long as there is oil there mate, otherwise the west wouldn't give a crap about the middle east. Think about it mate, all the countries that have wars going on right now, we're not exectly jumping in to sort them out are we? And why? Simple, they have no natural resources the west wants, yet.

#65, where have you been?, the American people gave 'Hannibal Bush' a chance, the Brit people Blair and the OZ people Howard. Its a case of doing the right thing in the first place, not waiting till things happen. This lot of so-called (Warmongers)had no right invading Iraq...It was all a tissue of lies, it can't be justified by 'Hannibal's 'good to get rid of Saddam'. That was up to the Iraqi people This disasterous mess was only history repeating itself...The days of invading other people's country should have been over a long time ago. Mr Brown should be given the chance to act 'quickly', and if he does score a couple of points, no harm, at least soldiers can come home to their loved ones..

#65 Graeme, g'day mate. You said "Mr Brown should be given the chance to act 'quickly', and if he does score a couple of points, no harm, at least soldiers can come home to their loved ones..

To be honest mate I have no politics, gave up on the lot of them years ago, but as far as Mr Brown is concerned he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Strange old world innit

BRIAN BRADY
WESTMINSTER EDITOR reported:

05/20/07 "The Scotsman" -- -- GORDON Brown will remove all British forces from Iraq before the next election under a plan to rebuild support among disillusioned Labour voters.

These labour supporters backed this madman Tony Blair and think now that Brown is to be the labour party’s new leader all will be forgotten – you all have the blood of the Iraq people on your hands, you Scots are a shameful people like Blair, who is one of you.

Brown, the labour party and its supporters are as culpable as Blair for this mass murder of people; cutting and running now is blatant electioneering by labour politicians, and denial by the labour voters.

British soldiers have shamed soldiers of the past; they are obeying illegal orders to murder civilians – including children on the strategy of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to destroy an enemy. We have witnessed Tony Blair’s support of the IRA in murdering 2510 British soldiers, and awarded these terrorist with high office and very large pensions from the English tax payer; when they should have hung like Saddam for their crimes.

Blair could not have got away with it with out the support of the British Press!

Many serving and ex –serving soldiers in the US Armed Forces are going to be hanged by the neck like Saddam was, for crimes against humanity – in your own words you have been committing these crimes, which now we are to understand is the strategy of your Joint Chiefs of Staff – that also will be the end award for the British who participate in these crimes, starting with the following:

The Colours Association Armed Forces Federation today started the first stage with solicitors in making Tony Blair, his ministers, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff accountable for the murder of British Soldiers in Iraq.

The Colours Association Armed Forces Federation charge Tony Blair with Murder!

The Charge being:
1. Blair’s action in s

What the peoples of the USA and GB have experienced from their so-called leaders is cowardice – both of these deplorable excuses for men, are takers for the lust of greed and power. That is understandable, has only brave men will give.

#263 English Trooper, you said "British soldiers have shamed soldiers of the past; they are obeying illegal orders to murder civilians – including children on the strategy of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to destroy an enemy.

You also said "As a long term regular soldier with the British Army",

If the second is true then you know the first is a load of Bo**cks and if you are a serving soldier as you say, that statement was an insult to all Soldiers past and present and your not fit to serve, or invoke their memories.

#86 PhilC

It's too early in the morning here for me to follow that.

But.

I agree.

#225 bijan

Said Bijan:

"labor class is not a lying social element, this class has nothing to lose, in the other hand the elite class has everything to lose, power, money and above all their fraudulent social statue; therefore, they will lie to keep that statue and meanwhile fooling the working class calling them “Labor Party”.

I was interested to hear that. I'm not sure what you mean by the "working class." Is this like a caste system where you're born into a certain group and you can't get out of it? In America if you go to work everyday you're considered working class and it doesn't make any difference how much money you make. It you're working, if you've got a job, you're working class.

People who are working class and aren't making a lot of money and want to make a lot of money have to take on the responsibility of making themselves more valuable, get extra training, go to school and get a degree. Quit complaining about "the Man," or the "elites," or what ever you chose to call the object of your envy, and get to work making you own life better on your own. You can do it.

I don't know what to think anymore....I know Bush needs to go, and its good that Blair is gone as well, but..........
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/know-about-jihad/

#250, Sambo - You probably are more 'Scottish' than I am, even though not St. Andrew. I once played around (the proper term) on the Old Course with a friend from the Cape Breton Highlanders. That was in the Spring of 1945. He was convalescing from a wound and I had just finished a tour of operations with Bomber Command. What a bunch of old soldiers here today! Enjoy your homecoming, mate!

You keep forgetting what threat President Bush made to everyone,
"If you're not with us, You've against us."

Blair had no choice, but to back Bush under the cumstances,

"...out by 2010" is the trick line. Brown should NOW pull the plug and be out by Christmas!

The American Democratic Congress likes to say they haev a referendum from America to gouge the military and pull it out from Iraq - but what they are not saying is that their popularity is a mere 29 percent, lower than the president of the United States. Brown says he wants good relations with the United States then turns about and wants to pull out. Friends do not leave friends hanging. I personally do not trust Brown! I also think that the US should start thinking of what to do if Britain does not even remain an ally. I think Brown could possibly go that far - I have been reading about him for the past several months, and I conclude that is a possiblity - he does not want good relations with the US. Pulling the troops from Iraq is just the beginning. That is my opionion, but time will tell the truth - whose side is Brown on anyways ...

How of our troops will be home for Christmas, How many will be home in 12 months.
Come along Mr Brown Give us your answer do.
I Have forgotten how to spell Bu..s..t.
Mr Brown Its Not The Bull we want it is your action. Withdraw all Scottish troops now

This is the best news we have heard for a long time with regards Iraq. People all over the world will be delighted with this really sensible decission. What use is it to continue the slaughter of Iraqis and the killing of duped and brainwashed young British soldiers for a doomed cause.
Good on you Gordon Brown.

275. Tom Van Meurs

This isn't a decision, it is a rumour. Brown has mastered his pickpocketing skills, he is now improving his lying skills so he can reach the pinnacle established by Blair. They are both murderers, and should be in prison, never mind holding office.

There seems to be a general assumption that Brown is doing this to get back in favour with Scottish and English voters. Untrue - the tiny majorities in many Labour seats depend on immigrant voters, so it's another sop to Moslems

277. Porky

Gordon the Islamist - there's an idea!

*2,3,5 etc.
I agree with you......

There was no realistic talk about withdrawal before Labour lost votes and seats.

**The Nuremberg Principles, established at the Nazi trials after World War II, declare that it is the right and responsibility of individual soldiers to refuse to follow illegal orders or to participate in war crimes.

A soldier has the right and indeed the duty to refuse an "unreasonable order" under the terms of the Army Act 1955. So it's enshrined in military law too.

I believe the invasion of Iraq was illegal. But what has happened since means we have to consider all the implications of withdrawal very carefully. Will things get better, or worse, for the Iraquis immediately following our withdrawal? Is there anything constructive that we could do for the people of Iraq prior to, during, or after our withdrawal? What is the impact of the timing of our withdrawal likely to have on our troops and their families, and on the families of soldiers who have died or been disabled during this war?

Electoral considerations and political considerations do sometimes coincide. By which I mean that we should not knock Gordon Brown for taking on board the view of the people just because it may - or may not - benefit his Party electorally.

How many more will die in the coming years. You cannot force democracy on a country!

281. Pollock Bain

The invasion of Iraq was indeed illegal, and we and everbody else should get out as expeditiously as possible. The best way would be to get the UN involved, without any of the invading/occupying forces being involved.

But this will never happen; the neocons plan is working perfectly well, and they will never leave.

The oil and land is controlled, the country is well garrisoned, there is big money to be made in reconstruction, and the stage is nicely set for further imperialist adventures.

"Electoral considerations and political considerations do sometimes coincide."

How about humanitarian, ethical, and equitable considerations?

How often do they coincide with electoral and/or political considerations?

They alway should, but never do, because we - the ignorant electorate - vote for parties or personalities. We seldom vote for the person most likely to be the best candidate as a member of parliament.

No 283

"Electoral considerations and political considerations do sometimes coincide."

You are like Bush building the electrical fence???

218 Boudica - You really sound like a complete jerk.

#245, James Donald, wrote:

"Bohdun Tymkewycz served in the 14. Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Galizien which was made up mostly of Ukrainians, so not fighting for the freedom of Lithuania, in fact, I do not think that any elements of the Division even set foot in Lithuania. As I wrote earlier, I he was guilty of war crimes, he would have been prosecuted or at least tried under the War Crimes Act of 1991 as Anthony Sawoniuk was. In short there is no evidence, so your unseemly attempt to smear the son for the non-existant crimes of the father either betrays your ignorance or a willful attempt to misrepresent the truth."

Hullo, James.

I don't know anything about the bloke in question, but I do know that a lot of people get confused when the topic of the "Waffen SS" is brought up. The Waffen SS were not the guards at the death camps (those were members of the *Allgemeine* SS), but were rather soldiers. Granted, some of those in the Waffen SS may also have been guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity and so on, but having been part of the Waffen SS does not necessitate that a person is guilty of such.

I point out these things, not in defense of anyone (particularly not in defense of someone I know nothing about) and certainly not in defense of any fascist nation or its military personnel, but only in the interest of historical accuracy.

However, I agree that we should not hold a son accountable for the actions of his father (generally speaking), nor vice-versa (again, generally speaking).

#149, boudica, I'm sorry, but I would view any files released by MI5 about SNP members as questionable, at the very least. MI5 cannot be seen as impartial witnesses; they have a vested interest in undermining the cause of Scottish nationalism.

Englands voters - decide to put Gordon Brown out - it’s soon to become official !

"However, I agree that we should not hold a son accountable for the actions of his father (generally speaking), nor vice-versa (again, generally speaking)" - the history of the Waffen-SS aside, this is the bottom line - what the father did or did not do should have no bearing on what the son is doing now. Those posters who have implied otherwise here and elsewhere on the site are indulging in smear at the lowest level for reasons that can only be guessed at.
The soldiers of the Galizien Division were recruited mainly from the Ukraine and saw themselves as fighting for the Ukraine rather than for Nazi Germany, however naive this may seem now. Some joined the division and deserted back to the UPA after receiving weapons and training. At the war's end it ceased to be an official W-SS unit (although still a de facto one) and became the 1st Division of the Ukrainian National Army.

i've 'always' thought an Englisman has a sensible head over his shoulders. Can anyone tell me 'why' Blair wags his tail like a docile puppy each time Bush snaps his fingers ????

#292, your answer made me guffaw, but 'seriously' why, but why despite the public opinion did he let that American 'pulp' influence him ????

Gosh, there's an awful lot of comments about this, isn't there?
I agree with some people, but not others.
Example of the former might be #20, and of the latter, #285.
Or do I?
xx

It looks as if I may be too late! But here goes.

Deliver us from evil. Darfur - Dr Livingston went to help Africans some 150 odd years ago. Hitler - Churchill led the war to remove him. Iraq - The UN tried to deal with Saddam: Bush/Blair were not prepared to wait any longer: within the strict letter of the law it was illegal: it was however correct, the UN eventually approved: it is wrong to withdraw from Iraq without leaving a safe regime for the Iraqis in place however long it takes. Will Gordon withdraw troops irrespective of such a safe regime is the question he should be asked.

Will Alex Salmond put Independence before Darfur, Iraq, Famine relief, and the many other problems affecting the human race? I wonder.