We'll have to find him first, probably only the soles of his shoes will be visible as broon moves into
No 10

THE QUESTIONS ALEXANDER MUST ANSWER TODAY

Douglas Alexander replies:
1. It wisnae me.
2. A big boy.
3. Done it.
4. And ran away.

(is this OK Gordon?)

#2 weeshooie 1

I wouldn't hold your breath Alexander will blame others, blame bad advice like his boss (remember wmd in 40 minutes) and that those nasty nats who were really to blame. He will not resign either due to all above.

Basically is the concensus that all of scotland are stupid - we are led to believe this - The voting papers were quite clear mark x on this one and numbers on the other - There is no doubt some people who were confused by a simple task but is more than likely down to the inadequate computer scanners and programs installed for this occassion also should many of the voting papers also have been printed in different languages so that our foriegn friends who are now here knew what they were doing - Back to the voting system though were you not taught at school always read the paper before answering the question ? As a previous commenter did say if individuals cannot understand that than are they really likely to be making the right choice when they vote ? Also on the election of MSP's there is no overall all control in the parliament and in English seats this is denoted by NOC the outcome is that without a coalition of some sort a contolling government cannot be formed as go back to Westminister and you have to occupy so many seats to do this - this has not occurred so PR means that the whole parliament is a farce as is only able to vote on certain issues after westminister control and approval - Labour can form a coalition also if they have not already done so - People I'm sorry are more likely to be carried away but this election meant nothing in real terms sad but true

yes yes, we know all this, the ballot papers were tested and there was confusion all over the place, yet they went ahead and used them simply because they wanted that very same confusion, and hopefully either the snp falling victim to the spoiled papers in a big way, or something along the lines of the result we actually got.

Didn't take into account the SNP putting 'Alex Salmond for First Minister' next to their symbol now, did they ... slipped up on that one ..

How's the spoiled voting papers doing anyway ? still being securely held under lock & key ? or are the numpties busy at the photocopiers & tumble dryers ?

If he knew months before the election..oh, yeah, never mind. I get it.

This get to the nub of the story. It was a politically motivated decision by Douglas Alexander to press ahead with the single ballot paper to minimise "ticket splitting" which had badly affected the Labour list vote ( and that of the other boig parties) in 2003, leading to the Greens getting 7 MSPs and the SSP 6.

Here the view of the main parties was that somehow or other the greens and SSP had stolen these seats, whereas all voters were doing was making efective use of the system, as they do in AMS systems all over the world. Douglas Alexander as Secretary of State for Scotland simply wore a partisan labour hat and ignored all independent advice to maximise the Labour vote, The fact this was endorsed implicitly by some low ranking officials from the other three big parties via consultation with the Electoral Commssion is no excuse. They did not take the decsion - opposition party officials dont run the country, nor are they accountable to voters -, and what party official in the world would fail to implicitly endorse a ballot paper that assisted them?

And what about the ,many objection from all the smaller parties - the parties decimated by the ballot design on Thursday, The Greens in particular. Do they not have right too?

But anyway, Governments, Secretary of States for Scotland have different responsibities - they are there to serve the public not party interest and are paid by the public, accountable to the public and obliged to listen to expert opinion such as the Cragg Roos Dawson Report, a report paid for out of public funds for this very reason

Douglas Alexander has but one option open to him -resign

Please sign this e-petition and help network it to others to help him on his way

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/ScottishVoteScandal2007/

Read the instructions before you start the paper

If you can not understand the instructions then you do not deserve to vote

I voted for SNP not for independence, but for a referendum, you know the right of choice. Also may I add, I voted SNP not to give Blair a punch in the mouth, but for issues that SNP raised like the mc Crone report the Iraq war trident PFI the brake up of Scottish regements the council tax night mare student dept and so on .well this is our parliament, it belongs to the people to be worked for the people through politicians ELECTED by the people. its the people of this country that will decide whither it be run or governed by a minority or majority through the ELECTED party who have won the most seats .now it might well be that there is a discrepancy with ballot papers, but all parties have agreed with the count and the ballot box sealed then signed off by the officer in charge if by chance this is over turned by a court ether from within or out with Scotland then surly it brings democracy into question, reason being you never pick a fight unless you know your going to win, and if the party in question follow through with this agenda. The country is angry at the moment think how it will be when it is over turned

He chose them because he believed that voters for another party or parties were more likely to be confused, and an advantage would accrue to his own side.

Happily, he could not even do that right.

D. Alexander follows in the tradition of his mentor 'Cap'n Bob' Broon and his current boss, Bambi - They always know best, They never make mistakes.
And when things go pear-shaped GB simply vanishes. He wont be able to pull that stunt when he moves next door.

12 - sez who ?

Each of the spoiled ballots is as important as the next.
How many were there?
100,000 "or so" seems to be as good as it gets.

What I want to know is how many does "or so" define.

Why has it not been made abundantly clear exactly how many people who bothered to turn up,made not a jot of difference to the outcome,other than to be included in the "or so" bucket.

It is an absolute shambolic disgrace and a farce that could not have been better designed to hide bad news.
Labour new they were on to a hiding.
They might have at least taken it with a bit more dignity.

Dragonheid - where do you get your info ? the turn-out was well above 50% nearer 60%. As for the spoilt papers there was an even bigger balls-up in London a few years ago, does that mean Londoners are morons - and by extension London unfit to govern the rest to the country ? yeah to the latter imo.

They'll be calling it a democracy next. We're being laughed at in all the best places. And why be so pleased at a 'nearly 60% turnout' ... it means just short of half the eligible population couldn't be bothered.
If we are to be a truly democratic society with an honest, see-through method of electing our government we have to do better than this on all fronts. Bloody shambles ending in a coalition standstill or a minority government, so not a lot going to happen for the next few years but a lot of bickering and a few of the smaller parties running around with delusions of grandeur.
We'd have been better not bothering.

Is it true that 2 weeks before the Election the peope who normally work counting the votes were informed that they were not needed anymore also at 9.45 My wife received a phone call thanking here for her vote
how did they know that and is it not supposed to be a secret ballot also why was the voting papers filled in with pencil should they not be pen can someone enlighten me on these points

The picture is clear.
Between Alexander's responsibility regarding the voting papers and Neil Kinnock's connection with the company supplying the scanning machines there is little need to labour further on the matter.
Or labour to further any matter for that matter.
Whether Dragonhead 15 has a point or not, serious undermining of Scottish integrity has been effected by London Labour, again. (think Holyrood fiasco)
Stealth taxes are working alongside stealth impression that Scots are not fit for purpose and like wee doogie, must cling to the troosers of big brother in Westminster.
Thankfully Alec Salmond has other ideas.

Sadly and annoyingly, the article photo will be the nearest Douglas gets to being Pilloried.

#15. Dragonhead, China - Why you reading "The Scotsman" then numpty? When you actually live in the country then your opinion might have some worth (unlikely though). The crown that was on your arm, do you think it is now on your head?

16 Caledonia

I think you are being a bit too critical of Alex Salmond.

The expectations were that a coaltion would be formed but that is not now likely to happen.

Alex has calmly stated that we are now preparing for minority goverment with the Greens, something which I think would be no bad thing.

Personally I think the SNPs behaviour has been exemplary so far - its not like they have a big stick to beat anyone with!

Lets all see how it works out.

Arrogant ,self-serving, smug faced incompitent. Labour in a nut -shell. And we were allowing these morons to administer our affairs. Frightning.

There is no doubt 'Peewee' Alexander should be explaining himself.
Any sightings should be reported immediately to this thread.

douglas alexander = dangerous(slimey, slithery)animal.

Question!
Did all of the above vote?
If you did vote then carry on, if you did not vote then you can only blame yourself for the mess. You disenfranchised yourself stop whining here or elsewhere

It should have been admitted that as a
result of Scottish "education" many people
are unable to fill in a simple form.

I'm afraid critics in their hurry to criticise are not reading the whole of the 'Herald' article as indicated below

“When Mr Alexander decided to go ahead with the plan for a combined ballot paper, he carried out a public consultation exercise, and his decision was supported by every major political party and many returning officers around Scotland.”

“The research showed that the most popular paper design was the combined paper used last week. That layout was not approved by a majority of the sample group - a total of 46 of the 100 people chose it as the best option - but it was significantly more popular than any of the others“

It is also worth noting 2,0169,978 voted prompting the question - Why, if it was so confusing did such a large majority get it right?

A small note! To Douglas and Gordon.
All seats won by Labour were won on less than a 50% turnout, as a result of which there is no mandate.
As a result of the “Scotland Act” if a Presiding Officer has not been found 28 days after the election a new ballot must be run.
Now will that be fun as Douglas will have to run new separate ballot papers for Constituency and list MSP’s

#15 So the system in China is superior then?

Anagram...Douglas Alexander....'A deranged lax soul'

Remember the hanging and dimpled chads of George Bush territory? Just think. If the poorly educated blacks of Florida had been more capable of punching holes in ballot papers then the Democrats would have got in and we would never have had Bush - or Iraq.
Similarly, if the poorly educated voters of Scotland could distinguish between their 1, 2 and Xs (other than on a football coupon) then we would probably still have good old Jack.
So maybe Douglas Alexander is to be congratulated!

Designed to confuse, designed to shaft the Greens. Result: confusion, shafted Greens.

this schoolboy has failed in all aspects of his job,he also failed as a paper delivery boy

Where can one see the full Dawson report? Did the political parties have the opportunity of examining the report in detail before accepting the recommendations and at what level? The sample appears tiny for decision-making of this order. The Scotland Office should clearly be recused as too party political especially given the likely impact of the conclusions on the position of the incoming Labour leader. The actual vote appears to have been generally representative on a national and regional level (to be substantiated by an examination of a minimum 10% representative sample of rejected votes taken across the country). However in Glasgow Labour appears overrepresented on a municipal level.

No wonder tens of thousands of people in Scotland do not bother voting anymore. When you see how easy it is for the system to be manipulated and how easily politicians can cynically drum up ways of upsetting any true outcome.

Why will no-one come right out and say that failure to read instructions and carry them out indicates a serious level of numptiness and that such thickos disenfranchised themselves.

If we had a mandatory plebecite, including a box for abstainers, then the spoiled papers would be a clera measure of our education system's performance would it not?

Ok. After me, X

one more time, X

now off with the mittens and, 1,2,3......

Duh!

O no, typos.

Missing ? -1

clera == clear

8/10

#34 You appear to be one of the few people able to read and understand this story. I totally agree.

For all those people who want to find a conspiracy in this, and it appears universally that you want to find a conspiracy against the SNP (oh what a shock), you have absolutely no argument or evidence. Alex Salmond, who knows that his party approved the papers just as did all the others, knows he would be on a hiding to nothing if he pursued this.

As the article says, the papers chosen were the ones most popular in the field test. If they hadn't chosen the most popular ones, and a large number of spoilt ballots had been submitted, there' no doubt you would have been criticising that decision!

From the evidence we have at the moment Douglas Alexander has done nothing wrong, and those calling for his resignation have no justification for doing so.

D. Alexander wont resign if other labour politicians are anything to go by- take John Presscott for example..look at the number of 'clangers' he's dropped...and still there!! He's only going this year through choice..and probably with a huge financial hand out from the public purse!! That's new labour..nothing like the 'old guard'

As FDR once said. "If it happened it was meant to happen that way"

#13 Caledonia. What rubbish. Salmond was always going to talk to the Greens, he needs them to have a majority if the Lib Dems come on board. He is not acting like a meglomaniac but with authority, astuteness and calmness. Look at the others, Labour are going to challenge the result of a seat, if this happens there will be dozens more challenges and the whole election will collapse. It is totally irresponsible. Even if Labour got the extra seat they can't form anything other than a minority government as no one will support them. No one believes they have the moral authority to form a government.

The Lib Dems are a disgrace. It may be they are playing hardball but their current position is that they wont even negotiate unless the SNP drop one of their main policies to have an independence referendum. Now thats arrogance. Salmond has offered unconditional talks with the referendum open to discussion. There is every possibility they will offer a new constitutional review which is Lib Dem policy! So the Lib Dems will deny their supporters what they voted for along with other important reforms they have in common with the SNP like scrapping the council tax in favour of a local income tax.

The people of Scotland are not going to forget or forgive either the Lib Dems or the Labour party.

There is a lot of misinformation and confusion around. We need to know in what way the papers were spoiled. It seems the main problem was people putting two X in the first column. This seems to have been due to the message at the top of the page saying "you have two votes". The simple solution would have been to have written "you have one vote on this side of the page" AND "you have one vote on this side of the page". I think it said that on the second line of the paper but lots of people only read the first line.

The designers of the paper are to blame - there was nothing wrong with the single paper - just the design of that paper. And Cragg Ross Dawson probably got paid far too much to survey just 100 people - surely the 3 or 4% who got it wrong in the trial should have rung some more alarm bells.

No. 34. I got confused and made a mistake with the council paper but realised in time and was able to do it again. I wonder how many out of the total who voted had to do likewise.

Hello
I was at the count of the local elections in ArbroathTayside, on 4/5/07
I have never seen or witnessed such shambles in all my life
Lets get back to basics,local elections on one day and Ediburghthe week after
Highest votes wins the rest are out
Syd.

I spoilt my ballot paper as a protest. I voted against devolution in 1979 and 1997. The Scottish Parliament has been a miserable failure and a complete waste of money. We have lost representation where it really matters in Westminster. I want to see this ridiculous Parliament scrapped. None of the parties represent me, so spoiling my paper is the only way I can have my view taken into account.
Obviously I know that not everybody did so for my reasons, but if I were a politician I would be claiming a bigger swing to my point of view than any of the parties! Spoil your paper next time. Let the politicians know we don't want this ridiculous parliament!!!

All the main Asian newspapers are still singing about the French election. 84% turned out. Wonderful. Nothing about Scotland except yesterday in the SCMP. Said it was a shambles.

Firstly the ballot papers as Brian Taylor put it a total guddle, and Douglas Alexander must answer for his actions, not that it will make any difference to things in the immediate short term, unless Labour or others decide to challenge the actual validity of indivdual counts.
More to the point however is the Lib Dems decision to boycott a referendum, I just cant understand their logic, on the polls it would seem that the Scots would reject independence, Alex gets his vote and loses, but more to the point we can get on and have a fresh face on government rather than what could be an even more sclerotic attempt on government, destroying any faith folk have on devolution.
See # 52 I have to agree with your last comments its up to the Lib Dems to do a deal and let the country push forward with the job of government

#15 Dragonhead

Scotland has been doing the proverbial p**s up in England for 1000 years and your name describes you to the letter "full of hot air". capeche ?

55 my wife made same mistake and also realised in time and voted again.

#13

Quite frankly, you are obviuosly making it up :-)

Hubert 57. Its time to dig out your passport and a one way ticket.

With all the attention on the failings of the parliamentary ballot, we seem to be overlooking the apparent success of the STV system for the council election. This system has managed to wipe out the control of the Labour Mafia in many parts of the country. (One very large part in particular.)

I predict the local election results will have more historical significance than the parliamentary result. Hundreds of thousands of people freed from the yoke of local Labour Party tyranny. We have the LibDems to thank for this, and I'm very grateful.

It is a wee bit rich that the party to which Scottish Secretary (who probably took 5 minutes from his deliberations over road tolls to look at the précis of the summary of the Electoral Commission report) belongs are making the most fuss.

I'm sorry but it was confusing, it did take time to be sure of what the instructions were and when people who actually do bother to vote are used to dashing into the polling station and marking an X in the box then zooming back out, duty done for another few years, were faced with the A4 sheets on Thursday it is almost inevitable that mistakes would be made.

The Electoral Commission and the Scottish Secretary have questions to answer. An independent review is necessary, particularly in the light of the comments in the story.

Finally, why was Scotland a test bed for these counting machines? I thought we were past being used as Westminster's Guinea Pigs- but of course in the words of the dear leader our parliament is little more than parish council so if it all wnt tits up it's no loss.

#32. Jeemy. Nae need tae get yersel aw het up noo. Awa' back tae Wullie's shed fur a wee lie doon. Ah'm shair yer knackered fae writin sic a lang sentence!

#44 Rules - You must have had a good sleep as your thoughts today are quite sensible compared to your 15% drivel of yesterday.

I still think we need elections though. Not Labour's dishonest, self-interested cock-up elections but proper PR elections, which would produce a democratic mix for the parliament. We would then have to get used to consensus politics as we would rarely have one-party domination. Let's start now! The use of referenda (...dums?) for important questions would also help democracy.

Surely we can come up with a simple electronic voting system, online or using bank autotellers perhaps, to enable efficient and honest voting.

#16
I am here in Scotland, don't have a degree of any sort, am a senior citizen and found the forms easy to understand.
Does that mean that our modern education system has been dumbed down?!!

#66

Single Transferable Vote

For more than you probably want to know, but with pretty pictures:

http://www.votescotland.com/stv/How_STV_Works.pdf

#16. caledonia

So you had difficulty even though you have a degree in politics.

Thankyou for making my day! I haven't laughed so much for years.

#13 Caledonia

Your post is pure fiction. All SNP voters that I have spoken to are elated at the result and think that Salmond has been brilliant in the lead up to the election and in the post election negotiations.

#70 I wonder if it was a degree from "a prestigious non-accredited university", like the ones I keep getting offered in my email inbox. :-)

#68 "Does that mean that our modern education system has been dumbed down?"

Hard to say. We don't know which age group made the most mistakes. It may turn out it was your age group (or mine) who need to go back to school. I know as I get older, I increasingly fill in forms wrongly, and blame "stupid" young people for designing them so badly.

#32 What mess are you referring to?

More conspiracy theories: the ballot papers were apparently deliberately designed badly to stop people voting SNP!! Well if anybody tried to manipulate the vote it was the SNP with their 'Alex Salmond for First Minister' trick. It certainly succeeded in boosting their list vote and dishing the small parties. That sort of thing should definitely be banned in future and parties only allowed to use their official title on the paper.

By the way, the evidence is that 4% of the electorate are too stupid to be able to handle what was a fairly simple system and that is probably about the expected proportion in any country. Every household was sent a leaflet explaining how to vote, every polling station had clear instructions posted on the walls and every ballot paper had a clear explanation at the top. My 87-year-old mother had no problem with it and she left school at 14. Stupidity, laziness and apathy - with not much more than half the electorate getting off their backsides even though it was a close fought campaign. Maybe we don't deserve our own parliament.

A well-balanced , front page lead. That's today's Scotsman. Contrast it with today's scurrilous Sun.

#34, the responsibility for the confusing ballot paper lies 100% with Labour. Carrying out "woolly" consultations with the public and other major parties does not change that. DA for the chop!

4% of the sample = 4 spoiled papers =no problem

4% of two million= well no one appears to have worked this one out

The council area I was involved with had 12,000 votes and only about 160 spoils. Not too bad for the first STV vote.

Personally I am in favout of the BBC voting method.

#66 Jennifer.

Please tell me that you were joking.

I think Douglas Alexander should resign immediately. Not just for the voting scandal, which is reason enough, but also because he is a slimy wee turd of a man, and because he's from Paisley... :)

Seriously, he has to go. And David Cairns should go too.

I look forward to Douglas Alexander getting a roasting by Jeremy Paxman. But I don't think it will happen, somehow. Wellllll, yeeees Mr Alexander. BTW where is the guy who was on TV, radio, anywhere else he could be seen or heard during the run-up to the election telling everyone how voting for the SNP would cause the downfall of civilisation as we know it and the whole of scotland to be swallowed in a great chasm?

This guy alexander should be sacked and if he has any smeddum about him resign as an MP. He's just not, as the bald heided man from Airdrie & Shotts constituency is very keen on saying, fit for purpose. (except, in the eyes of unionists wo think he's made a good, although not good enough, attempt at rigging the scottish parliamentary election).

It becomes increasingly clear that this election has been hijacked .They knew the likely outcome in advance and I refuse to accept that even Douglas Alexander could be so stupid as to think that this system would work!THEY HOPED THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN in some form or other!

Its their get out of jail clause, apparently or so they think!
One thing that I do NOT understand though is,if there is a re run Scotland will be the laughing stock of the world (we are already actually)if she does not bury NEW LABOUR permanently, especially when they are facing removal south of the border.BOY ARE WE THICK!

WE allowed ourselves to be conned out of the biggest windfall we shall ever see .WE allowed our parliamnet to be hijacked. WE are an embarrassment to democracy!

VOAT LABUR COS ITS FUR THE WURKIN MAN KEN!
The illiterate thick numptie you mean !

#84 Jack Havana: LOL Jack! Excellent blog! Let's have an enquiry into whether John Logie Baird, Alexander Graham Bell and James Watt were too intelligent to have been Scots!

I speak as an intelligent Scot of course......

Re#89. Morris.

You are ABSOLUTELY right.!!!

#87 AM2 - For once you are right! Labour are a disgrace!

#89 You truly are the king of the conspiracy theorists. Even if *all* of the spoiled ballots had gone to one or the other of the two main parties, the result would have been much the same - no majority, and either a coalition or minority government needed. The fact is that Scottish opinion is split. This is not as a result of any conspiracy, but simply that neither side has persuaded the public enough of their cause.

Nothing has been hijacked, nothing has been conned, and you are making yourself a laughing stock by suggesting such things. Get a grip. Your party won.

AM2

I've not had a chance to congratulate you on a determind, but alas, unsuccessful campaign.

Y'know how you have a resevoir of stats and other info, could you tell me what the record is for champagne consumed at an election winning party?

#96 And what exactly did your #92 add to the discussion? About as much as AM2's #94 I'd say, except his was funnier. I mean, you weren't serious, were you?

re# 98 Duncan (or are you AM2 in another alias?).
Of course I'm not serious when it comes to AM2 postings. Who on earth can be when having to read his diatribes. Anyway, I'm off to do something constructive - earn some money to pay tax on, which, unfortunately, will contribute to the salary of His Extreme Lordship Douglas Alexander. And, really, AM2 - you SHOULD get out a bit more!!

it's kind of sad reading these threads and seeing all the people slag off scottish people as stupid and incompetant. i don't buy that load of garbage for a second, and neither should any of you! to my mind the whole "scots are stupid and incompetant" line hides an agenda - if the scots are a bunch of numpties then they obviously can't govern themselves.

in other words, it's nothing more or less then unionists letting us all know how they really feel about scotland. and then they have the gall to go and act offended when people call them what they are: anti-scottish!

#44 - like you i'm strongly inclined towards getting rid of politicians entirely and having localized direct democracy instead. right on. i just also think direct democracy becomes a lot more feasible in an independant scotland then it is in a scotland that's still politically tied to the UK.

the scottish parliment is kind of a joke, but if its a stepping stone to independance then imo it's a joke worth playing along with. that's my 2 pence anyway, as an outsider looking in. it could very well be that once i've spent a few years actually living in scotland my opinion will change, though hopefully by then scotland will be independant anyway and the point will be moot.

#101 Yes, of course I am AM2 in another alias. I'm also anyone and everyone else who doesn't agree with you. I thought we'd sorted this out ages ago. You and all other pro-SNP posters are the victims of terrible oppression and I and all my alter egos are nothing more than the paid mouthpiece of that oppression.

Hope that's put the issue to bed once and for all.

#102 Excuse me, the line for conspiracy theories is behind morris. One at a time please!

(Note to Lizard army: further evidence of sentience in the humanoids - should we be worried?)

Mac, 75 - Mac, why was it confusing to have 'Alex Salmond for First Minister - SNP' plus SNP logo on the ballot paper? Nobody was going to vote for him by accident!!

As a matter of fact, the SNP were very opposed to the local elections being held on the same day as the Scottish general election. If only the main Scottish election had been held then there would have been far less confusion.

And I thought it a scandal that our votes were put into cardboard 'in tray' type boxes. Where were the tamper-evident, sealed metal boxes??

All power to your elbow, AM2. You continue to provide reasoned argument and solid information in the teeth of childish personal abuse from people of limited intellectual capacity on these boards whose contempt for democratic debate is demonstrated by their preference for insult and conspiracy theory.

I don't know how you can be bothered, but well done for trying.

Oh and I forgot to mention the other thing that was genuinely confusing: Scottish Labour having two candidates on the council ballot paper, when the other parties had only one (Edinburgh Leith Walk). Still, I managed to rank them 11th and 12th, quite accurately (I hope). Anyway SNP came top in the result.

Alex Salmond has my best wishes in his attempts to build a goverment. Nicol Stephen has seriously damaged his reputation by adopting his meaningless stance against an independence referendum which could never take place in this parliament without majority support. I am willing to bet that the other Libdem MSPs are fizzing at his intransigence!

The two column ballot paper was the main cause of the confusion.

If the voter had been handed a Regional ballot paper and asked to fill it in then return it and be given his Constituency ballot paper
then all would have been well.

Of course the local elections should be held on a seperate day.
Not just to avoid voter confusion but to allow local issues to be discussed and not overshadowed by the national issues.

On a seperate note, perhaps the Presiding Officer should be elected by the outgoing parliament rather than being selected by the incoming parliament. That way none of the parties lose an MSP in a tight election and the President has had at least 4 years
parliamentary experience. Just a suggestion.

So AM2........where is it next?.......Iraq, Somalia or another troubled 'hotspot' that needs sorted oot?

I couldn't help but notice someone called Aaron McVitie won the "Watch it to win it" quiz on STV last week, was that you??

#108 "meaningless stance against an independence referendum"? You mean the stance that the Lib Dems have taken throughout the campaign, it being one of their campaign pledges? Essentially, a stance on the basis of which people voted for them? That stance? Do you really think it is meaningless?

#111 AM2

I was at the Lothians count.

Many of the spoiled ballots were caused by people putting
2 Xs on the right hand side and leaving the left hand side blank.
I didnt see a single ballot that had 2 Xs on the rhs.

I also think that asking people to vote for their "Region" and then their "Constituency" would make both votes equally important.

Also for the council election the ward I observed had about 12,000 votes and only 160 spoils. Much less thatnthe confusion over the parliamentary election - and it wass the first time that STV has been used in Scotland. Very encouraging, but of course the alphabetical order needs to be re-considered.

#106 mac the proud scot

Now, Now AM2...............Sending congratulatory notes to yourself under another pseudo "is just SO SO last year darling !!"

#115

Err that shoudl have been 2 x's on lhs and rhs blank!
Human error.

There was more than the ballot paper design to merit enquiry. Why did so many people not receive their postal voting papers in time and how many of them lost their vote because of that?

For that matter I have no idea whether my votes were counted as spoilt or not. They were certainly correctly filled in but as a postal voter I had to put my folded ballot papers in an envelope which was not big enough. Postal ballots would be either be crushed or have an extra fold which could lead the electronic counter to reject them.

Also at our local polling station there were apparently only two booths, glasswalled, instead of the usual four properly partitioned. This doesn't seem very sensible given that filling in the ballots took a bit more time than just putting a cross on one paper.

It does appear that the SNP have been granted one of their electioneering wishes...that Scotland should be more like Denmark, the Netherlands and several more of the other European states. Election processes there almost never result in any clear victoryfor any one political group , for the vote is always too fractured to permit this.

By splitting the main vote 4 ways in Scotland the electorate have guaranteed that no one party will ever be able to achieve it's agenda.

Now we will have to live with the consequences.

It is futile for the SNP or any others to rush around blaming other parties for this state of affairs. It was predictable from the outset.

As a reflection of the existing opinions within Scotland this election has without doubt produced the leasast attractive but most accurate of outcomes.
Tomorrow we will see for the first time what can be done about it.

76. Swilly Tisher

What evil scare stories is the sun running today? You cant get the scottish sun online, only the main sun paper.

Alan Smart #11 wrote:

"It was a politically motivated decision by Douglas Alexander to press ahead with the single ballot paper to minimise "ticket splitting" which had badly affected the Labour list vote ( and that of the other boig parties) in 2003, leading to the Greens getting 7 MSPs and the SSP 6.
.... Douglas Alexander as Secretary of State for Scotland simply wore a partisan labour hat and ignored all independent advice (in order)to maximise the Labour vote"

Spot on!

This was also the reason why Labour introduced new rules with the postal vote a few years back, despite its obvious and damning flaws.

I don't think it was any targetted 'conspiracy' against the SNP. It was just the usual Labour hallmark sleaze.

121 AM2

You raise a point that I have already expressed my concerns about.

As soon as I saw the ballot and could not find the Scottiih National Party box I had to go looking for the place where this could be indicated.

The fact that Alex Salmond's name was there worried me enormously , as I had understood that the left column was solely to indicate party preference for the regional list. As I had never heard of any political party called "Alex Salmond for first Minister " I assumed ( correctly) that this was an SNP dodge to get their candidate to the head of the alphabetical list.

I cannot understand why such blatant exploitation of the system was permitted by the electoral authorities. Personally I am quite convinced that the muddle that led to spoilt ballots was in the main caused by this tactic.

#121 AM2

Yes there was a fair mixture - a good few Salmond and Margo
double votes.

Also there were a significant number greens that only voted on the Regional vote and didnt vote on the Constituency vote. A few people definately spoiled their ballot on purpose.

Other than these implementation issues I think our voting system is good and gave a fair result.

The most strange thing about the election is that only about 50% voted even in a close election. A bit embarrassing after the high turnout in the French elections.

Its becoming clear that Labour have tried to manipulate the election from the outset
No doubt labour supporters as wel as the Labour party will deny this, but as they say all the sh*te is begining to float to the top

#123 Maisie: Seeing the Scum and Record headlines on Thursday probably would have made me vote SNP even if I hadn't made up my mind beforehand.

For the parliament ballots: the left hand and right hand columns are each a different colour and have "Write one X for this column only" printed in each of the boxes next to the candidate's name.

Council ballots: "Number these boxes - 1 will be taken as your first choice, 2 as your second choice, etc." printed in each box.

Sorted!

#115 Doh
Spoke with my father at weekend, he is an ardent Labour supporter and was very angry at the cock up, he even admited that he also voted 2 'x' in the same column as it wasnt clear.

The wording at the top of the ballot paper was vague in that it stated only 'you have 2 votes', it was definately not clear that it was only 1 vote per column. So whats happened is that many people not wanting to vote for an individual on the left column, placed two votes against parties on the right column

'When Mr Alexander decided to go ahead with the plan for a combined ballot paper, he carried out a public consultation exercise, and his decision was supported by every major political party and many returning officers around Scotland'
I would like to know who exactly was consulted and how the information was presented. I suspect that the parties consulted were only those in Westminster (as Westminster is technically responsible for the parliamentary elections), I also suspect that Douglas Alexander was a bit lean on the actual information provided

I cannot understand the claims that Labour deliberately inflicted a confusing voting paper to help their cause by reducing the SNP votes. Could those suggesting such a thing possibly be suggesting that SNP voters are stupider than those voting for other parties!!
And what was the purpose behind the SNP putting "Alex Salmond for First Minister" in the voting column - could that possibly have added to the confusion, or was that a Labour plot as well?
Finally, have those talking about the "English Parliament" counted the number of Scots in the Labour administration or the ratio of Scottish MPs:People in Scotland in comparison to the equivalent in England.
All the "It's Time" nonsense of the past few weeks and what have we got - a situation that is counter-productive to effective government in Scotland for the forseeable future. If there was a real desire by the majority of people in Scotland for independence, the SNP would have won a clear majority at a time when Labour is unpopular. But there isn't and the result proves it. After all what was the percentage of the population that voted SNP?
History is not being made, shambolic government is, and we could do so much better if we stopped this devisive nonsense and worked together to make Scotland a better place within the Union that has serves Scotland (and Scots) so well in the past 300 years. But that is true, factual history not the mythical versions I read about often in these comments.

#134 I very much hope not! That would be outrageous.

It is also apparent that if a party were only on the regional column and not the constinuency column, any supporter of that party would invariably vote twice in the regional, result spoilt paper. This was clearly understood by Douglas Alexander and the Labour party which was a way of voter manipulation
If this is proven to be true, I would like to see crimainal proceeeding against Douglas Alexander and all those in the Labour party involved!

#128 AM2

I think the confusion of putting two ballots on the same piece of paper is avoidable.

Asking people to vote for their Region, return the ballot and then be handed their second ballot for the Constituency would seem to satisfy your question.

Putting Alex Salmonds name on the ballot paper probably did cause confusion but of course the SNP were as much the losers as anyone else because of it (thought that might of just been in Lothian).

As I say for me the number of spoils can be reduced quite easily, increasing the turn out will be harder.

Are you calling for a return to FPTP?
That would have meant a Labour victory and the Tories with only 4 seats, LibDems 11? Surely not?

I have a family of 4.. and.. we each had a Postal Vote..
One of those ballot papers was spoilt by making a cross instead of a number.. NOT through ignorance.. just through haste
I telephoned requesting a new ballot paper.. and I was told to just place a number in the same box as the cross and that it would be OK..

As this was less than a week before the election.. it is very unlikely a new ballot paper would have been sent out anyway..

Re Alexander's answers...I bet the word "robust" is amongst the excuses: seems to be on every apologist's tongue when a cock-up is uncovered!

I would be interested to know if the SNP had 129 constinuency candidates standing?
If it is the case that they did not, then it is clear that Labour have tried to manipulate the voting, there is no doubt about it.
Why I ask about SNP, is that SNP were seen as the main opposition to Labour, but if Labour knew that SNP were not fielding a full team on constiniency, similar to those of the Greens, SSP, Solidarity etc
Then its is obviious that Labour have been inviolved invoter manipulation.
The fact that parties such as the greens, didnt filed any constinuency candidates, resulted in there apparent poor performance

Quote from Professor John Curtice:

"The main reason for the spoilt votes on Thursday seems so far to be the new parliamentary ballot paper, not two elections on the same day.

The new ballot paper was suggested by Arbuthnott, proposed by Labour and supported by the SNP."

So whether it was right to put two voting columns on the same paper or not, the SNP supported the idea.

Or would the SNP conspiracy theorists say Curtice is a Labour stooge as well?

Course they would - silly me.

#133 Edward

I agree with and can understand your father's anger.
I think it can be fixed for next time.

I dont think there was a systematic bias in the spoiled votes,
I would imagine the spoiled votes were roughly in proportion to the valid votes.

Back to the opinion polls. Did they identify the fact that the turnout was going to be slow low? Or that the election was going to be so close? I think their credibility is at an all time low.

I do remember the SNP supporters saying they were 8-10% ahead and that any poll that suggested the result would be closer was fradulent. Hmmm.

Frank if you are reading you owe me a pint!
Your prediction was 59 SNP seats, mine was 42.
I think that gives me the "moral authority" to claim a pint.

Poor design was blooming obvious, the moment that you looked at the forms.

As a one-time civil servant, I'll admit that I have seen plenty of quite horrible forms in Britain - horrible for the citizen - but THAT slipshod???

Anyone who perpetrated something of the sort where I've worked would have been in deep doodoo. Elsewhere, he might have been out of a job.

I'd find it hard to believe that such things could be deliberate, if it weren't for the fact that I've seen worse things from politicians...

AM2#145

The election was a disgrace and is another example of a Labourite crimes against democracy type stuff!!!

Was that quick enough for you!!

#143 I do hope that the SNP didn't have 129 constituency candidates standing Edward. There are only 75 constituency seats.

Rest assured that your paranoia is baseless: SNP candidates stood in all 75 constituency seats, and had lists in all 8 regions.

Anyone seen much of the vacuous wee tool since election night. He did his usual line in patronising a nation for a while and then when the figures started rolling in and the problem begain to take shape, his eyes started getting pretty big, shortly before he dissapeared.

Haven't seen hide nor hair since. This is the guy who's reckoned to be the big talent in Scottish Labour. He is the worst kind of moron, hanging around the latest policy fad and think tank nutcases for ideas.

Just another theory head, no experience of delivering real things that have to happen. When he does get involved, the results are there for all to see.

#149 Duncan

Thanks for the correction
but my drift was that the ballot favoured those parties that fielded candidates in all (75) constinuencies and not those who only were on th eregional list

As per usual, the no talent control freaks at NuLabour HQ hit new depths on the democracy'Cock-up-ometer'

This load of divs would surely remain as sober as a bench of teetotal Judges if they ever have to organise a booze up at a brewery..... "We were warned that to have bit of a knees up without alcohol would result in absolutely no one getting p****d, but undeterred because we know best, we decided to go the Sasparella and Cream Soda route"....

Let's not forget the pig's ear they made of the postal votes fiasco. Fatty Prescott was warned about the risk of widespread fraud. He ignored it - and hey, guess what? We got widespread fraud. Add to that their 'focus group' ideas on voting by phone texting and the spectre of Banana Republicdom is becoming an ever looming reality.

#153 I agree. Apparently this was a stitch up between the major parties, according to other reports I've seen. Solidarity, the SSP, the Greens and the independents should rightly be fizzing. And given that the SNP's seat tally was largely taken from them (16 seats) rather than from Labour (only 4 seats), perhaps the SNP shouldn't be complaining too loudly about this...?

#150 AM2

With respect to your first point about 2003.
The electorate are not being asked to express a 1st and 2nd preference but a vote for their Regional representatives and a vote for their Constituency representatives. It was never and is not now a preference voting system.

So seperate ballot papers, issued sequentially should make both ballots of equal importance and reduce confusion.
Many green supporters voted correctly on the rhs - i.e. voting for the green party - placing only on cross - and then left the rhs blank presumably because they didnt like any of the consituency candidates or dare I say "major" parties.

Both sides of the ballot paper were adjudicated seperately so a regional spoil could be a valid constituency. Or vice versa.
But as I say the most common mistake I saw was two crosses on the LHS and the RHS being left blank.

A spoil on either the LHS or RHS would be counted as a spoil on that side only. I think I am right in saying that more votes were cast in the regions than in the constituencies - which must be due to different number of spoiled votes on each seperate count.
So the number of spoils is in a sense is exaggerated but of course no less serious a problem.

#155 Duncan
Ah you say that it helped SNP. But that doesnt actually follow. The regionals are based on percentages, if the Solidarity, the SSP, the Greens and the independents were in the equation, yes they would have acheived the level to get there lists candidate in, but then again so would SNP, all though the overall percentages for the main parties would be lower.
By manipulating the regional list, this results in wholesale dumping of the region only parties

124. Cauchy Riemann

Alan Smart #11 says "the smaller parties - the parties decimated by the ballot design on Thursday, The Greens in particular." - there is no evidence for this. Alan was told by polling organisations prior to the election that the smaller parties were getting squeezed and many polls showed that they would get what they did. Alan made a point of disagreeing emphatically with all polling organisations. Without concrete evidence, this may be seen as Alan using his get out of jail free card.

I think it is perhaps true that Douglas Alexander wanted to avoid 'ticket splitting' but there is no evidence that using a seperate paper in the last two elections helped the Greens or the Socialists at all (perhaps Labour paranoia more than anything else).

I think there comes a time when we have to say we were just wrong.

#159 You're right, but the point I was trying to make is that the SNP got 26 members from the list vote, while Labour got only 9. So it would appear that the combination of the forms to encourage main party list voting benefited the SNP quite considerably more than it did Labour. And damaged the SSP, Solidarity, the Greens and the independents a lot more than it damaged Labour too.

This paper asserts that the SNP supported the single ballot paper option. Did they have the testing evidence that Douglas Alexander had? Their low ranking officials would accept the the Scottish Office had got good advice and acted accordingly.

This is a pretence from The Scotsman so that there is no call for Douglas Alexander to resign. At last they are asking searching questions but they are trying to lighten the load on Alexander.

Why are the press not demanding Alexander resign?

Join the boycott of our anti-democratic 'Scottish' press:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/anti-Scottish/

#163 Care to name the "low ranking officials" to whom you are referring?

Fact. The Number of Spoiled papers is unprecedented in Scottish Electoral History.

Fact. Douglas Alexander was in charge

It happened on his watch.

He should go!

When the Westminster Elections come round, his constituents should do us all a favour and vote him out!

#163 Alex Young/Porter/Whatever your name is today:

"This paper asserts that the SNP supported the single ballot paper option. "

Professor John Curtice says that, and he is indeed quoted in this paper. Can't you just accept the facts instead of trying to weasle your way out of the SNP taking any of the responsibility? The SNP also contributed at least as much to any confusion by renaming their party on the List Vote. That piece of trickery should never have been allowed and mustn't be allowed to happen next time.

70* Dick(head).
Read my post again,i said i gave the ballot paper a "double take",i did not say i had difficulty with it.My initial reaction was "This is going to cause confusion to a lot of people"

As others have mentioned there are essentially 3 problems to consider.

1. Postal voting forms not sent out in time.

2. Confusion over "First Past" and "Top Up" form.

3. Confusion over different methods of voting on council election form.

Of these 3 only the postal votes issue merits investigation. I'm afraid to say that tens of thousands of my fellow countrymen/women were too stupid to read a simple form properly. It was not rocket science!

The idea of having the council elections on the same day was reasonable - the aim was to maximise turnout and involve more folk in the democratic process. Again, the form was not difficult to follow and it depresses me that so many Scots did not have the wit to correctly read the damn form.

Taken in the round I don't believe that there is sufficient evidence to warrant re-running the elections.

Alan Wilson may well feel agrieved if it can be shown that the Labour Party would have obtained enough spoiled votes to give him victory, but if this is the case it will be down to the stupidity of his supporters - and I say this as a Labour voter!

In a different age, people who were incompetent either resigned or were fired. In todays Labour party, incompetence does not seem a barrier in maintaining your position. Lets see if for once somebody is held responsible for their mistakes.

Now look here Richard Lionheart! We are talking Labour ministers here, they don't resign when in the s***. They get promoted, Becket is a prime example.

169
To suggest that Alex Salmond for 1st minister would confuse anybody into not undertstanding that if you mark this square ,it would not result (potentially at least) in Alex Salmond being first minister is the raving of a lunatic!

What an idiot thing to say!

100,000 ballot papers disallowed the whole election should be cancelled, and held in June with the same type of paper that was used before.
Any Referendum should only be valid if there is an 80% turnout, with 65% in favour in that way a majority of the Scottish electorite will have voted in favour. Not all Scots will get a vote as they do not live in Scotland. If I were an Australian living in London, I would be expected to vote in any Australian election.

#174 Yes it was an idiot thing to say. And barely understandable. What did you actually want to say?

#174 morris

So why did the SNP rename their party then? Was it just for fun, just their little joke? No, it was to get their party into the most prominent position at the top of the list by inventing a title beginning with A.

Pure bare-faced manipulation. If every party tried that we really would have chaos. The rules should be sorted out and only the official name of the party allowed.

#175 - Nothing would ever change with those election parameters - a very conservative (with a small c) way to approach politics.

Universal suffrage was won after a long a bloody struggle which makes it really sad that 48% of the electorate didn’t exercise their voting rights. (Either by not being engaged in the process, or more likely, to lazy or apathetic)

I favour mandatory voting, as long as the "None of the above" is always included on the ballot paper.

Well, If Douglas Alexander had anything to do with it, it's hardly surprising there was a cock-up.

"Four voters put one cross on the paper; three put two crosses in the same column," the researchers reported. "This sort of mistake suggested a lack of understanding of the election format (ie, that there were two separate votes)."

Crucially, they went on: "The separate papers were less likely to give rise to these types of mistakes; because they were on separate sheets, it was clearer to voters that each column required a cross."

--- Who's to blame then? Mr Alexander. Also who lied when he said "it was Jack McConnell's campaign" on TV and yet (as revealed in the Sunday Herald) McConnell's ideas were ripped to shreds by Blair and Brown and he was told what his campaign would be.

There is a legitimate doubt here.Did the parties not voice stronger objections for precisely the reason of the potential outcome?
Perhaps the Lib Dem SNP and Tory parties realised there can only be one loser here NU LABOUR! I have actually met Labour voters who think Scotland already is independent !SERIOUSLY!

When you owe your electoral success to deception and the gullability of your supporters, who do not actually agree with you,they just assume that you represent them,since they lack the education to realise that it is in fact NOT so,and the reason they do not fully understand your explanations has nothing to do with superior intellect on the part of the party hack,and far more to do with the fact that its a complete and total load of drivel designed to confuse,mislead or misprepresent.
When a political party thinks that they key to good governance is being more gifted illusionists than the opposition then you truly are UNFIT for PURPOSE!
That is precisely what New Labour are !

177* are you really sugesting that people only vote for the person whose name appears at the top of a list.

12) Badly wrong opinion, the illiterate, dyslexic and senile, and even the plain lazy are entitled to vote if otherwise deemed sane.

Electronic counting should be abandoned as bad experiment. A couple of years ago the Irish government ditched e-voting when an Oireachtas committee declared that the already purchased voting machines and software was insecure (the Oireachtas is the upper chamber in Dáil Éireann). Expensive, but they at least had the sense not to inflict this upon the Irish electorate. I'm amazed that this point hasn't been raised before in the context of the Scottish elections.

#187 Yes. And the use of e-counting had NO INFLUENCE ON THE NUMBER OF SPOILT BALLOTS.

3 separate issues: high count of spoilt ballots; counting machines broke down in several places; postal votes not received in several places. All nothing whatsoever to do with one another.

181
If it is the case that Alex Salmond was seen to be more electable than the SNP would have been,I can only say that they would be pretty stupid to not capitalise on that!
Im pretty sure Labour would have loved to use Jack Back as 1st Minister,except that presumably they would have got even less votes.
The principle is the same however!

The people have spoken We are a democracy. What the people say is their right to determine.

I agree the wording of a question can influence the response.

eg If you asked "Do you think that the Alexander woman is an idiot",presumably some would answer no (because Douglas is not a woman) .
Most would realise we are asking about Wendy the mouth of course,but not all! Im not sure how the others would answer,possibly a few would record a yes.
I agree the alphabetic primacy probably does contribute slightly through prominence and ease of search however.Perhaps Labour should try Abba fan Jack ? Id be more likely to vote for him ! I like Abba !

186
I am amazed by this also.Its inconceivable that they would not have known this surely!
The conspiracy theory just went up a few notches I think and into the realms of probability!
THANK YOU for bringing this to our attention.

Actually I think we should try and get a referendum going to kick NU labour and the fib dems back to their english masters.

Cant see it passing as I cant see the english masters wanting that sleeze closer to them

Mebbe the constituency candidates could have a Colouring-In Competition next time and the nicest picture would win!

Sorry, but you DO have to foolproof ballots and elections and this was clearly not done. Just another symptom of Labour's revisionism: change it for the helluvit.

#185 and #12

Both right. The trouble with counting systems is they are fallible and individuals, really, don't count.
Numpties can vote and smart people can spoil papers. Both are legitimate.

We fantasise that we all matter and our opinions count and so on, but that is not the nature of populations and plebecites. The population behave as a demographic that, suitably categorised and queried in groups of 1000 or so, will tell you the answer.

The opinion polls got it spot on - Alex by a nose. Sure, by all means those responsible for the ballot design, timing of elections, the hopelessly non-current electoral roll can pour over the minutiae and seek, statistically, to minimise problems next time. Maybe a few less of the challenged will misunderstand and get to cast a valid vote, but it doesn't really matter.

The reason that we get so hot about some disenfranchised or no-show voters is a deluded belief in individuality. It really makes no difference except at the margin.

Knowing this explains why Mad Tam & others fiddled the devolution vote last time. Tying any outcome to the electoral roll is political manipulation of the worst kind. At least the chaotic errors tend to cancel statistically.

There are probably comparable numbers to the 100,000 who are on the roll more than once, who are dead, who are too young or have moved at the wrong time.

We only have to worry if these numbers, in distribution or magnitude are significant otherwise they are just so many hanging pregnant chads.

Simple Solution

SNP Administration disband the Scotland Office.

It is a political institution created for no other purpose than to walk the Holyrood Dog on behalf of it's Westminster masters, and to yank them to heel with the choker if they get too uppity.

Keep them within the Union at all costs, is the cry that rings within this institutions plush halls.

Boot them out and save the Scottish Taxpayers some money, will also help demonstrate that the SNP can run their own affairs very efficiently ;)

#34

A balot paper should be simple for all members of the society, the elderly, the disabled, the illiterate and some people who are simply in a hurry.

No one should need to read a set of instructions to vote!

Someone said in another thread 100,000 numpties, well that's just insulting.

People with a brain injury have the right to vote too. After all, they too are part of society.

#193 That is an argument for e-voting but patently not an argument against e-counting, since e-counting does not change the paper voting process at all.

So your statement is simply untrue: the fact that papers were counted by machines is orthogonal to the spoilt ballot issue. They could have all been counted by hand with the same result.

Labour came up with this election voting cock-up to suit there own rotten underhand closed politics that they took for granted as their right and the scottish people as sheep.
Now they did not get the result they wanted they are crying foul. Surely the labour MP's who dictated this voting shambles against all opposition and expert advice should first admit their cock-up and resign. NO because they think anything they do is okay because the dullards in Scotland still vote labour no matter what.
Lib DEMS need to stop moralising and get on with helping to govern Scotland. If labour get back in through legal technicalities what's the bet within 2 minutes Lib-DEMS have formed a government with labour again all of a sudden!!!!!

#195 Since the Scotland Office is a UK Government Department, the SNP would find that very difficult (unless and until they are in power in Westminster).

"In November, the minister pressed on with the single-paper plan, supported by the other major political parties."

Surely this is the nub of the matter. All main parties were for this. So if Dougie should go, so should Nicola, Nicol and Annabel!

196

Maybe we should re-design the ballot papers to look like Mecca Bingo Tickets or National Lottery Slips, or even Bookies betting slips?

It seems like no one has a problem filling these week in, week out?

#198 "against all opposition and expert advice"? What on earth are you talking about? The opposition parties approved the ballot papers, and the decision was based on the advice of officials gleaned from a usability test. Did you read the article?

You're just another SNP supporter with a victim mentality and a knee-jerk reaction to blame everything on Labour.

183 Morris,

I am sure you know what you meant to say in 183,

The rest of us are challenged...It appears to make little sense.

199

They Holyrood Administration could choose not to cooperate or work with it and let it wither on the vine.

Probably won't work though as this will be the conduit for negotiatiting Scotlands' exit from the UK.

It really bugs me that we need a nanny department because we don't have enough Scottish Powers at Holyrood.

#186 & #190 - Please, PLEASE learn the difference between the e-counting machines which were used for the paper ballots in this election, and e-voting machines, which were what was trialled in Eire and found wanting. They are two completely different approaches. E-counting counts PAPER ballots which remain a permanent record of the vote; e-voting uses a machine to log the voter's choice, bypassing paper altogether. The lack of a paper trail was one of the main reasons why e-voting was rejected in Eire, so to compare the two is utterly wrong-headed.

I'm ashamed to admit I read the record this morning, but one reader asked if it was acceptable to use "ballot spoilers" as a a polite term for stupid people. Gets my vote...

I honestly believe that if you can't understand simple instructions, then you cannot possibly grasp policy or constitutional issues. Voting Labour because your family always have doesn't count as a political view point. Next time around there should be a short IQ test to be sat by all prospective voters prior to the ballot.

#205 And that would be very effective indeed I'm sure. I hope that Alex Salmond's approach to running an SNP administration will be more mature than yours.

Nope Duncan neither, all parties are denying responsibility but ultimately the buck stops where???

They have the final say, and are they taking responsibility, holding their hands up, showing true dignity and setting the correct example to give the public greater faith in politicians???

Hung parliament is good as it forces everyone to start working together instaed of westminister confrontational politics? So labour should accept what electorate has said and get on with it, Would they have threatened new elections if they had won I THINK NOUGHT.

#198

What would you like to bet?

Why do we need a system that asks people to vote twice for the same election anyway ?

Let's simplify this whole process. Keep the additional members, if we must, but allocate them using the constituency votes received, rather than a separate ballot.

Any party wishing to be elected on the list would just stand constituency candidates, and any voter wishing to vote for them would need to give them their only vote.

One paper, one cross, no confusion about "second vote Green".

Oh, and preferably no "Aaron the Aardrvark for First Minister" stunts either.

#210 As far as I'm aware Labour have entirely accepted what the electorate has said and are simply waiting to become the new opposition in the Scottish Parliament. One individual is making a noise because his count was very tight and he thinks more of the spoilt ballots were for him than for anyone else, but the Scottish Labour Party have acted entirely properly in recognising the overall election result and waiting for the SNP to form a government.

202
It would be even more funny if it were not so close to the truth!
Maybe we should let the bookies decide the election.They are apparently the people who understood it better than anybody!
198 has put it in a nutshell !
Labour did not get the result they wanted.They should be grateful they did not get the result they so richly deserve!

Im really glad that the SNP vote was Alex SAlmond for First Minister - SNP

SNP is far to close to BNP and I hope they never get a voice in Scotland. Mind you I hope G Alexzander never gets a voice in Scotland either but that wont happen.

#203 Duncan in Edinburgh
I havent seen anything official that suggests that all parties in Holyrood approved the ballot papers and having the elections for council and parliament at the same time.
However, can only see ;
'The decision to use e-counting in Scottish Parliament and local authority elections, to be held on May 3 next year was taken jointly by Scottish Ministers and the Secretary of State for Scotland' ; 'Scottish Secretary Douglas Alexander said:
"With changes taking place and the complexity of voting systems we should be making the voting process as straightforward as possible. All the voter should have to think about is which party's policies meet their wishes. They shouldn't have to worry about how to fill out the ballot paper.
"That is why I want a single ballot paper for the Scottish Parliament elections - removing any confusion that a vote on the regional list is less important, or a second choice.
"I am also announcing today that electronic counting will be used for the Scottish Parliament ballot papers and that overnight counting will remain, with results out by the next day as usual." ;
'The Arbuthnott Commission Report on Boundary Differences and Voting Systems invited the Secretary of State for Scotland to consider adjusting the Scottish Parliament ballot paper in the interests of raising awareness about the significance of the two types of vote under AMS at Holyrood.
Both the Secretary of State and the First Minister have concluded that there is merit in this proposal and have asked for a consultation exercise to seek views from a wide range of interested parties.'
[source : http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2006/06/09103251]

"DOUGLAS Alexander, the Scottish Secretary, was warned months before the Holyrood election debacle that the design of the voting papers he chose to use was likely to confuse people and cause them to spoil their ballots."

Funnily enough there is a story headline in the telegraph from 2005 titled: "Arrogant Labour knew risks of all-postal voting"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinio...

The article is quite damning and rightly so. Interestingly it makes mention that "Labour explicitly overruled the Electoral Commission and the House of Lords to hold postal ballots for the 2004 local and European elections in its own heartland regions".

Its all a bit like deja vu.

Douglas Alexander is to make a statement during Scottish questions this afternoon 14.30 hrs
hopefully it include his resignation, more likely though to be a white wash

215
To compare the SNP and BNP marks you as an imbecile.They exist almost at the opposite ends of the spectrum and only a moron could fail to notice this.
One is internationalist and outlooking,(Former Communist Christopher Grieve (Hugh MacDairmid) was a founder member.How in blazes could that be anything like the BNP? YOu are one hundred pence short of a pound note !

This then includes the LibDems in this debacle. Perhaps that's why they are afraid of a coalition?

Still, the ultimate decision was Douglas Alexander's. He should resign now!

219 Nobody compared the SNP and BNP. The comment was that the names are similar and may lead to confusion among voters, but by putting Alex Salmond in the title, the SNP avoided this. What's hard to understand about that? Did you spoil your ballot, by any chance?

Labour have not accepted the restult of the election. Evidence? 1) No call from Jack McConnell to congratulate Salmond. 2) McConnell has not resigned as FM. Presumably they hope that Salmond will not get the vote to become FM and Jack can stay in the job by default.

Why are the media not asking these questions?

Join the boycott of our anti-democratic 'Scottish' press:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/anti-Scottish/

#222 Alex

The FM does not leave office until the new FM is elected by the parliament. I am sure when he does Jack McConnel will offer his hand to Alex Salmond - but I bet he coats it in some special virus that only kills SNP supporters ......

Maybe you need to relax.

#114 Duncan.

Yep, I do!

He has a hidden agenda, otherwise it would not be an issue for him.

Westminster perhaps!

By the way, Nicol Stephen sounded pretty silly during the campaign saying that he supported more devolved power for Holyrood and then seemed to contradict himself by saying he opposed a referendum on independence. He even looked a bit embarrassed himself.

God almighty, you Nats are a whingeing bunch! You win a landmark number of seats in an Election and still you're not happy.

The ballot confusion was all a Labour conspiracy - despite the fact that all the major Parties including the SNP agreed to it, and a host of other countries use the same system perfectly well.

The Lib Dems are somehow traitors to Scotland for refusing to go into coalition with their political opponents. Sorry, run that by us again?

It was all Labour's fault that the minor Parties got squeezed, completely disregarding the fact that the Nats' trick of putting Salmond's name on the Regional list gave them almost all the list seats previously held by said minor Parties (and incidentally their one seat majority - Labour's net loss was only four seats, most of the SNP's gains actually came from the SSP/Tommydarity and the Greens).

If you're going to govern Scotland, you're going to have to learn a bit of political maturity instead of blaming all your problems on the Unionists. You've had decades of whining about Scotland's problems, now you have the responsibility of finding solutions. Over to you, guys, you're on your own - none of your Unionist opponents owe you a free ride.

So you want to take Scotland forward to independence? Well, on you go. The buck stops on Alex's desk now. Time to put up or shut up.

215

Stu
My apology.
I have indeed misread your intention.I stand corrected. I admit I am well out of order here

221

Again I apologise.The interpretation I made here is clearly only that,and has no justification.
For the record I did not spoil my paper.

Muppet in human form, Douglas Alexander is doing Scottish questions at Westminster on BBC Parliament at the moment. It's the usual jokey blokes club sneering at the SNP from the Labour drones and David Mundell the solo Tory.

He will make a statement on the Scottish Election at 3.35 pm. Currently it looks as if it's just business as usual, he looks as if he's under no threat to quit.

#116 AM2

"General question:

Why, before any inquiry results have been published, do the SNP supporters here seem to think that they can rule out the possibility that Alex Salmond's name in the party list section could have created or worsened confusion between the regional and constituency sections?"

Simple answer, we don't.

It is also possible that it lessened the confusion because most people knew that Salmond was not their constituency MSP.

By the way AM2, your question appears sufficiently loaded to indicate that you yourself have already decided that it did cause confusion or are you in fact keeping a completely open mind until the outcome of the inquiry?

I am.

#121 AM2

Having just read this post it seems you are pre-judging the inquiry.

Naughty, naughty.

An observation AM2, the quality of your posts has taken an almighty dip since the election. Now why would that be?

Don't see why they removed my comment at no. 1

Only used the same term for Mr Alexander as their own weekly columnist used regulary in SOS.

Apologies if I offended.

814 people took the time to sign the petition.

Go on Scotlag, you know you want to.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/ScottishVoteScandal200...

'Happiest' - all politicians were given a wake up call by the shift to SNP
'Wee Scot'- mickey take because Scotland has never been a small country and should have more confidence in itself
'In the World' - about time scotland realised it is a particpant in the world and should have a voice of its own either as part of the UK, Europe or Inependently as last resort

SNP vote in the election was not a vote for indpendence. That is what the referendum would be for. People seem to confuse the two rather easily.

Electronic voting either counting or casting is flawed, where is the human check? Or are computers suddenly become 100 percent reliable, if so where can I buy one?

#136 Wee Jeannie

Don't worry, nothing can be as bad as the last 8 years!

#137 AM2

Whaaaat?

You really have lost the plot me old son!!

AM2 - Also your party follows this trait that everyone else is at fault for their balls ups.

DE NILE IS A RIVER IN AFRIKA!!!!!!

#169 Mac

Calm down before you blow a blood vessel.

It was within the rules otherwise it would not have been allowed. what's your point?

#240 You are well named sir. You accuse people of racism but cannot even spell it. You seem to have aligned AM2 with a party which he does not support. And you throw childish sexual insults around like confetti. You are ill-equipped for rational debate. Go away.

#171 Freethinker

Some clarity at last! Hard to argue with your analysis.

#242 His point was that it "shouldn't have been allowed". I thought that much was quite clear. Have you too lost the ability to read?

#226 DC
'despite the fact that all the major Parties including the SNP agreed to it' - PROOVE IT!
So far there seems to be a lack of official proof that all the parties, major or otherwise, in the Scottish Parliament actually aproved the new papers and system. The only record that there is, is from the Executive itself which only states Scottish Ministers and Secretary of State for Scotland!
'host of other countries use the same system perfectly well.' AGAIN PROOVE IT!
Apparently the Irish government did try out exactly the same system for the Irish parliament and it failed and subsequently scrapped!!

7 out of the 100 control group researched cocked it up
7% is a poor result in relation to spoiled ballots.
This is a very poor situation when it should have been held up against the low projected turnout.

233
IM too busy listening to Scottish Questions.

Presumably you dismiss the theorists on this moon landing without reservation.It was reported as nonsense in the SUN after all and we all know what a reliable source that is,dont we!
I dont know,but at least I admit it!

#245 Duncan

You cannot have it both ways Duncan. Either all parties approved the ballot papers or they didn't. Which is it? I suspect they didn't and that New Labour carried out their usual (non-existent) consultation process.

#246 For pity's sake, the Irish tried e-voting machines, which have precisely NOTHING to do with this election. Did you do comprehension at school? Read, learn and inwardly understand?

#234 scotleag
Hate to correct you!
Quote from the BBC (may 13 1999)
'Mr Salmond said: "May I congratulate Donald on being Scotland's first minister, this is no small thing to be the first minister of Scotland in the first administration after 300 years."
Paying tribute to Mr Dewar's loyalty to Scotland, Mr Salmond also made light-hearted reference to his opponent's renowned appetite, prompting laughter in the chamber.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/342318.stm

#178 AM2

Yes it is possible.

Nothing however points to anything other than voter stupidity!

#245 What are you on about now? I repeated what another poster had said because in your response you put entirely false words in his mouth and - guess what - in your response to my post you put entirely false words in my mouth as well! Seems like a typical tactic of yours.

In #169 the poster said that changing the party's name "shouldn't" have been allowed. Your response was that it was within the rules. Of course! But his view is that it "shouldn't" have been. Geddit?

Now in #249 you tell me I can't have it both ways, when in fact I neither endorsed nor denied the original poster's view, I simply repeated it for you.

Now please go back over that, see where you made your mistaken assumptions, and try again with a response.

#251 This is after Donald Dewar's election to the post of First Minister, NOT after Labour won the largest share of seats.

Hate to correct you!

#234 scotleag
further correction for you re John Swinney congratulating McConnell
Taken from the Scottish Parliament website 15 May 2003

'Mr Swinney: I congratulate Mr McConnell on his re-election as First Minister and wish him well in the period ahead in which he will hold office and face the many difficult issues of structuring his Government.'

Think its time you tucked into that piping hot humble pie!

#254 Duncan hate to correct your correction
But as it was the very first election , there was no protocol guidance, it was also the first public opportunity for politicians to give congratulations

STATEMENT ON SCOTTISH ELECTIONS

A Scotland Office spokesman said:

“E-counting has worked well in a number of areas and voters can be reassured that where counts have been completed the results are accurate and final.

Hard lines Allan, your bubble has been shot before you blew it.
UB 40s all round then.

I bet Alexander announces some limited Scottish Office enquiry to head off what Alex is planning - a full judicial enquiry. Might be the first issue of conflict.

1 - Instructions, with example ballot papers were in all the national papers in the week leading up to the elections.

2 - Instructions were on the walls of the polling station itself

3 - Instructions were on the ballot paper itself, and in the polling booth.

4 - Staff were available to help in all polling stations.

If people can't be bothered to read SIMPLE instructions, or if unsure, to ask for help for this important task, then I despair. If 100,000 of my fellow Scots are unable to follow these simple instructions, how on earth are they able to understand any of the basic policies of what they were (trying) to vote for?

Having said that, although it's mainly the failed voters' own fault, the previous Executive and minister have to hold up their hands and say that they didn't make it as simple as they could have. And heads must roll over the failure to get postal votes out on time. As for electronic counting, experience has shown that for Scottish Parliamentary system that hand counting is faster, but for the new council system (1,2,3,4....etc) we really need the machines.

#226 We will put up if you shut up. Deal?

#256 What? Sorry, you are saying there was no opportunity for Alex Salmond to ring Donald Dewar when Labour won the most seats? I'm sorry but that is pathetic.

I have no doubt that all the party leaders will congratulate whoever becomes First Minister of the new Parliament. It strikes me that that is entirely the right time for congratulations. But you cannot argue that McConnell not calling to congratulate Salmond at this point is any different from Salmond not calling to congratulate Dewar at the equivalent point in 99.

#234 Are you saying that the Queen has no role in the appointment of a new FM?

#245 Duncan

There are many things that "shouldn't be allowed" like wee Douglas having anything at all, whatsoever to do with running the Scottish Elections.

Anyway, why not let Mac answer my question for himself rather than you trying to do it for him? How do you even know that you are putting forward his views?

#261 Duncan
You have misunderstood, I thought I was clear
There is nothing to state or say anywhere that Alex Salmond did or did not call Donald Dewer immediatly after knowing the results. It is the norm that there ould be 'unofficial' calls of concratulations, which are, by there very nature, isnt something thats recorded for prosterity.
Knowing that bothe Salmond and Dewar had a resonable relationship, it is more than possible that Alex did call Donald. But the official record of concratulations was only stated during the opening day of parliament

#265 Well done for finally understanding. I am confident that I was putting forward his view because I was simply repeating it verbatim, which is what is apparently necessary to get it into your head. Glad it worked, I hope you don't always need things repeated three times.

#267 Firozali, have you gone and got a new login?

Douglas Alexander is worming his way out of taking the blame for the voting fiasco
He is sticking to the fact that all parties, with the exception of the conservatives agreed to haveing both regional and consitituency ballots on one single sheet. However slippery Douglas, conveniently blamed the exeutive over having council elections on the same day.
He also conveniently forgot to state that he was warned over the instructions on the ballot paper , something that he didnt put to other parties (they were only consulted about design and having both ballots on one paper)
He also conveniently overlooked the fact that both the counting system as well as the format was flawed (historic proof existed that the Irish government scrapped it)

#39--Dick--""if the poorly educated blacks of Florida had been more capable of punching holes in ballot papers then the democrats would have got in & we would never have had Bush-or Iraq""........

the majority of those voters in Florida, who didn't (per instructions)tear off the "chad" after punching their ballot, were older white citizens...& they had been using that same system for many many years.....please, when relating a story, get it right...

#264 AM2, you know as well as I do that most voters do not vote because they think all politicians are as bad as each other, or because they have zero interest in politics and who governs them.

Never, ever in all of my discussions with intended non-voters (in the pub, colleagues etc) has any one of them ever cited "not understanding the voting system" as a reason for not voting.

So yes, I think your "hunch" is extremely implausible

#260 - I'm not one of the innumerable Nats on here whingeing about anything and everything, and lashing out in all directions trying to apportion blame for the fact that you couldn't actually win your mandate for independence. As I say, you wanted your chance to run Scotland, you've got it. The ball's in your court now, get on with it. No-one owes you any favours.

I'll shut up if and when you lot put up. That's a better deal.

Has no one mentioned FM excuse that in mid term no government is popular. That is a line for council elections, does the ex-FM not realise the Scottish Parliament is a body with substantial powers to be used for the good of the whole of Scotland and should be working on that ethos in order to secure what is best for Scotland and get as much for Scotland as possible?
Funniest moment of election Diana Abbott calling FM Jock Mcdonald repeatedly, does anybody know who the ex-FM was in his own party ?

I see Duncan and AM2 are on overtime today.

Here's one to make you smile, from the BBC Scotland webpage:

Mr McConnell said Nationalist leader Alex Salmond still had to prove he had the "maturity of leadership".

He's a cheeky monkey.

#269 The difference is that Duncan was trying to explain an answer given by someone else. I was simply answering your original question. :)

#273 connaughtboy

I agree with you.

Most people I have met that dont vote either becasue they dont care or cant be bothered. Some are clearly sociopaths. Others dont think that politics doesnt make much difference to them.

The media never portray non-voters in a bad light - it usuallys a humorous "theyre all the same".

If there is a to be a general review of the elections they should also look at how to stop twerps like Adam Lyall and even perhaps
Neil 9% Growth from standing.

I dont think they are serious candidates.

#275 DC

I think you are premature in drawing any conclusions about what the SNP do or don't have a mandate for. Let's wait and see.

As a point of order, most nationalists are over the moon at the result but are getting very angry at New Labour trying to mount legal challenges to the very system that they themselves devised, against expert advice.

Don't confuse the latter with any sense of frustration at the result which was always going to require a coalition government.

#278 - I was a labour supporter disgusted by their cling on and spinnig rhetoric. Just as you spout. I am no SNP ite. I am however fully aware nobody can make as big a mess of the country as "New"labour/tory/dem"

The only one considered a fabricator on these boards is yourself. You have done more fabrcation work than the clyedeside shipyards in recent weeks than they have done in their proud history.

I note however in #post 278 you did not ellude when i actually put up to your feeble challenge. Now you should shut up! :-)Now go practice typing like in the the tea commercials.

#280 Doh

At last we agree on something.

AM2 please take note!

274

I completely sympathise with you. Those 2 prize prats are not on these forums to debate but to annoy, lie, spin, eliminate any chance of real debate.
The best way to get them to ignore you is to ask them questions and challange their points of view.
They have no ability to sustain their arguments and when challanged to any degree avoid the issues and jump onto somebody elses argument.
Their credentials are totally suspect with our Duncan supposedly from Edinburgh being English with as much understanding of being a minority Scot in the Union as I have of being an English football thug.
This pleb actually tried to pass himself of as a concerned Edinburgh citizen.
Argue with them if you want you should certainly insult them every chance you get but dont expect a debate worth the name.
check out other forums on this paper and others you will see these two clowns on all of them.
A pathetic pair of of trully ignorant worthless trolls.

284 Boyce

I certainly don't wish any ill will on AM2 and Duncan but they are really wearisome with their contrary and irksome, repetitive postings.

Douglas Alexander shows promise! He's completely ignored the inescapable fact that the incompetence he referred to was HIS!
Its not the responsibility of individual politicians ?
He is the Scottish Secretary(well in theory anyway) and responsible for EVERYTHING not devolved which relates to Scotland.

Again they are suggesting that Alex Salmond for First Minister has contributed to confusion amongst the electorate.
The SNP won this election GROW UP!
Douglas Alexander should be forced to tender his resignation.
He has been asked by his own party does the total spoilt papers include local government or are they to be added on. Douglas Alexanders response is I dont know how many there were and I also do not know if they are inclusive.
He has made very positive conclusions whilst by his own admission still not having a clue as to what has been total humiliation of him and Scotland.

Jim Devine has attacked Douglas Alexander on the use of the Electoral Commission as being suitably impartial. Even his own Labour members dont agree with him!
Why when we have all the results do we not have a total for spoiled papers?

Ian Davidson has suggested where three Xs were recorded could we not allow one of them to stand?
For obvious reasons the answer is NO!
Which one is correct ?

LAbour are determined to drag this even more into the democratic gutter than they already have.

275

SNP policy is that a referendum will determine the level of support,and campaigned on the basis that THIS ELECTION WAS NOT ABOUT INDEPENDENCE but about electing an executive.

How can we be guilty of whinging about not achieving our aim of independence when we had already stated that it was to be measured separately?

LAbour are the party questioning the results legitimacy.We on the other hand quite like it!

We had tv ads, internet ads, press ads, mailshots and to top it all - officials at each polling station to explain the voting system. IF people still got it wrong think of it as electoral eugenics. If Labour think they lost out more than anyone else then they think their voters are more stupid.
As for party names - the Brisish Labour Party in Scotland calls itself the Scottish Labour Party on voting slips. Thus is electoral fraud and only allowed because the Brits are in charge and we all know Brit-tannia waives the rules .Let's get out of this corrupt and corrosive state and get a free Scotland.

286

If you think its bad on this forum go check out some of the others I dont think there is a forum on any subject on the internet these 2 prats havent got an uninformed opinion on. Everything from gay rights to the Middle east and probably gay rights in the middle east. Making out they have informed views on everything and anything.
I dont know if they are lacking attention at home or even if they are different trolls its hard to tell they seem to share views on everything isnt that scary?
Maybe this is a full time job it would explain a lot.

#274 thanks for not letting me suffer these twits (with an A)in Silence.

AM2 - As a puppies are not only just for XMAS(to coin the ad) , Careers in politics (and electorate) should not be taken for granted. I hope your dreams do not come to fruition as your clearly the same kind of do anything, say anything , cling on for dear life type we want rid of. We have had the referendum on YES men, IT WAS LAST WEEK!LOL So, good ridance to your ilk(AM2). I cannot wait till 4 years time and some more of you go! Then I shall sing glory. In a proud , Independent Welcoming and reasonably balanced Scotland. Not the bleak, barren rascist and under performing land you have predicted for weeks.

SHAME SHAME SHAME!

251, 255 Edward

You have NOT corrected me. You have provided statements from parliament AFTER the election of a FM in 1999 and 2003. That has not happened yet in 2007.

You have not provided any evidence that any phone calls were made to Dewar or McConnell prior to their election as FM by the parliament.

Why should the SNP expect Jack McConnell to react any differently to Salmond and Swinney and make a phone call BEFORE the election of the FM?

Time, I think, for proud Edward to go homeward and think again

288

I disagree it looks exactly like the informed unbiased reasonable well thought out statements we have come to expect from you.
And funnily enough there are thousands of them all over the internet to pick from maybe we should cut and paste a few.

I have just watched Douglas Alexander's statement and subsequent debate in the House of Commons on the UK Parliament website, and I believe that this statement should have acted as his resignation speech.

Douglas Alexander and his New Labour cronies have known for months about the potential problems with last Thursday's elections and yet, they have completely ignored these warnings. Therefore, Douglas Alexander should take the full responsibility and blame for what happened, and GO NOW!!!

293

And dont expect him to either. youre getting to close to asking him to actually prove his points.

#123 Maisie.(Sorry , Maisie , I'd love to help you but I don't wish to dignify the "story" in the Scottish Sun. I didn't buy it ; I glanced at it over the counter . Clearly it seeks to harm one of the SNP's newly-elected members).

The best suggestion on this board today is that three Scottish constituencies should be selected at random, and all the votes cast in these constituencies should be recounted by hand.( including any that were rejected and ruled out as spoilt.)

This would then indicate how successful the machine count had been, and would provide the data necessary to assess whether , due to ballot problems, this election has become fundamentally flawed in its outcome.

I suppose we have to trust to luck or judgement( ?? )that the returning officers involved will have ensured that the ballot papers have not already been mislaid or destroyed.

291 Boyce

I have no problems with people having views diameterically opposed to mine.

I do have problems with lies and spin -

The SNP is anti English, you will have border posts blah di blah di blah.

I never know when it is best to ignore it and when it is best to counter it.

At its worst, we had the shocking display from the press on May 3rd.

I know Archie McPherson2 and Duncan hate the SNP but I wish they would leave it at that as we all have got the message.

When you scroll down these forums all you see is AM2 and Duncan in Edinburgh and it turns you off completely.

Guys, give it a break.

292 JuanKerr

Probably the most accurate user name on this site

#288 AM2 - I do not see a lot of people jumping to your defence? Ask the scotsman to release the archive. Your words are exactly to effect what you said. Anyone else remember his long and wearisome Diatribe? There has been so much guff, to instantly recall your exact words but I am sure if anyone reads this far , then a few more will remember and agree than disagree.

I expect once this is over you'll just start your spin works/ Wind Farm up under another name. Casting of the shame you have created over recent weeks. In the same regard as a New labour MP Clings on to their careers. E.G. in ignorance of the many voices against them and the dignity the office once held.

Go and appease your masters, wipe their sallowed brow. Thats all you appear to be fit for.

The reason why I have focussed on the Scots is because the majority of Scottish people who voted in the recent election, voted for the SNP and therefore would at least consider self-determination.

As an Englishman who does not like feeling politically marooned within my own country, I am looking to the Scots to free both countries, thus allowing them to pursue their own destinies.

A poll in todays Times says that only about 8% of the electorate trust politicians, which essentially reflects the impossible compromises that are required to do the job, as the system is currently cast.

The English are a very quirky, innovative people and I am confident that given our own free rein, within the context of England, we would rapidly find a concensus that is broad enough to solve the current problems.

The gates of England will open up for the English again.

It is inevitable and then English people will say, why did'nt we do it sooner?

302 Archie M

Did you forget to fill in your spin, contradict and lie sheet?

249
Whether there was all party approval or not (and Im pretty certain its NOT) is of academic interest only.

Responsibility rests with the party of government.

Douglarse Alexander You are the weakest link .OUT!

As a final note All of you who didn't vote SNP this time should at the next election you see the lengths others will go to to prevent a free Scotland in those immortal words " WILL RISE AND BE A NATION AGAIN!!"

#300 AM2 and connaughtboy

I agree the issue has been talked to death but it was what the story was about.

Anyway is you see Frank on any of these boards
- he owes me a pint .

This could be the first SNP broken promise.

#299 last part I agree.

Their polarised views and domination of every comment is neither productive nor holds much hope for poltics nor constructive political debate in Scotland on the ground, that would set us apart from the Westminister handbag fights.

299

Neither do I. I welcome honest debate and would love to argue with a real Unionist who actually believes his point of view.
These two F*ks have no real convictions or beliefs to argue, so they take a stance on everything just to provoke. this only stifles real debate and fills up the forum with printed pish.
At first I suspected they were both politically motivated and were actually working but now I am not so sure its looking more likely that they have personal issues to deal with.
They may even be two personalities from one individual agreeing with themselves.

304 John

I feel that Independence would benefit both countries.

Political friction would be removed and I think the relationship would improve at an individual level because we would be responsible for our own decisions and be unable to blame the other.

We would still be trading partners and hopefully still good friends and neighbours.

The only downside from your point of view is that Duncan in Edinburgh would be getting sent back on the first train.

My views transcend all parties not just yours AM2 , Deal with it. A lot of normal people feel that way. Hence the viewpoint and now common usage of politician as a dirty word. Your type of politico clingon did that not me!

Lick your wounds and join the next party in accendancy. The career minded types allways follow the smell of the tide turning.

315 AM2

And on and on it goes...

Just hiss and p***.

#290 IWright
The TV adverts were very few and far between, I only remember seeing at least 1 maybe 2!
(regular STV viewer)
Internet Ads?????, only effective if A. You use a computer (kind of omits the 50 to 80 year ages group) and B. if you happen to be on a site that has the internet ad. Press ads, only if you actually buy a paper! As for Mailshots, they as more than likely were mixed up with the forest of political mailshots and ended up in the bin!
The fact is money was skimped and not targeted properly. Most people watch TV, so there should have been a concerted effort as in at least 3 to 4 times a week on ALL TV channels, preferanbly nightly at peak viewing. Yes this will cost, but ift would have been more effective

315

Nope it refers specifically to you and Duncan and youre unwillingness or/and inability to debate anything I thought I made that obvious.

It is very instructive to watch the politicians in Northern Ireland getting together today in such a positive way.

I know its not all his own doing, but if Tony Blair deserves credit for anything it is nudging along the peace process.

To see McGuinness and Paisley sharing power is wonderful.

Sorry if I've strayed from the ballot paper issue!

Bendy Wendy's wee brother in action. She must be so proud.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/200/489966916_2454b3a8c0_b...

Jabba the Hutt appears to be sitting behind him.

#293 scotleag
Your a t*at!
I only stated that it is normal for political opponents to congratulate the winner.
In Scotland, we have the situation, whereby, regardless of who wins, the FM is elected by the parliament, traditionally this is the leader of the winning party.
Nor did I say that McConnell should pick up the phone to Alex Salmond before Alex Salmond's election to First Minister!
But an acknowledgement wouldnt go amiss. The farce is that the numpty McConnell is still in denial, with comments that he is 'standing by' 'waiting in the wings'
If by any stretch of the imagination Labour manages to engineer to have McConnell back as first minister, you can be rest assured there will be a riot!

322

Join the club it really gets distracting dealing with troll trash but its hard to just let them get away with their crap especially when theres so much of it.

313 Boyce,

Instead of wasting your time and that of everybody else time speculating about the motives of those with who you personally disagree you might spare us all your useless back chat against others .

The position that AM and Duncan have taken over the weeks has been explained over and over. Instead of taking the time to read and digest the things they have posted, too many have come on these boards with the express intention of rounding on them , over and over, to divert , attack, make weak attempts ridicule and , even today, some have resorted to posting comments themselves which they have attempted to pass off as being made by those that they take issue with.

At no time over the past weeks have we had a proper response on serious debate from too many who inhabit these boards. Any attempts at correct and proper analysis here, of the SNP policies, have been batted away ,lost in hopeless remarks etc, and seldom addressed in detail.

Now we have the wonderful situation of a parliament containing a leading party that will be quite unable to deliver on its manifesto, except where this coincides with the wishes of one or more of the opposing party.

The SNP will now wake up, perhaps , and realise that they do not now, and perhaps never will, speak for the majority of people in Scotland. They have now heard democracy speak.

So It's quite pointless to carry on wrangling about what the ballot box actually" said ", just because you don't like the outcome.

#319 - because you realise I have told the truth and the indecency you refer too means(in AM2 speak) that I do not agree with you and your ilk all party wide? ANd must be made out to be a liar? I see not one jumping to your defence?

Their are rats in everyone. But the cleanout has commenced. Starting with the worst. You may get that seat after all as the last man standingfor the party you obviosuly love so much! Infact you could say you've given your life to them. That can be summed up in the hours of vitriol you have oviously not crossed the door for in weeks! E.G. you don't a hve a life! LOOOOOSER!

Nobody is listening am2. On a personal note i am so glad you cr@p is hitting you 4 square right in your gubbins!

Your obviously rattled and can only rush about trying to claim back some dignity. Which has long since left the building.......

Go back to your masters and leave the free thinking alone.

#325 GO GOOGLE YER GOOGLIES!

IF YOU NOTICE THIS NOTICE YOU WILL NOTICE THE ONLY PERSON NOTICING IT IS AM2

HENCE THE PHRASE SADDO(and my previous about no life for wrting drivel on net)!

#330 AHH ITS SELF DEFENCE NOW AND CHANGING OF SUBJECT! WHEN YOU REALISE NOBODIES COMING IN WITH U TO DEFEND YOU. MUST BE LONELY ;-) BEING RASCIST. THEY ALLWAYS BLAME OTHERS FOR THEIR FAILINGS ALSO.

SCOTLAND NO PLACE FOR RASCISM!

314 Dave M

I agree with your sentiments completely and think that independence for both nations would be one of those rare cases where 'the parts are greater than the whole', if you see what I mean.

The only downside from your point of view is that the Scottish professional politicians who are operating in Westminster would no longer be required as that place would revert to being an English Parliament.

Therefore, there is a possibility that these professional Scottish politcians would be returning home.

You might have noticed that these are precisely the people who are always banging the drum for the zombie political entity called the United Kingdom/Britain.

However, I don't think that you need to worry too much about hordes of these Scottish politicians returning from Westminster, as 'my sources' tell me that the very last thing these professional Scottish politicians would want to do is return to the 'bitter, narrow, provincial world' of Scottish politics.

They think they strut the world stage now, working out of Westminster and for them there is literally no way home (professionally speaking).

#332 - I believe you didn't post those thing as I don't think you have ever posted anything original anyway.

Alex Salmond has stated on Radio Scotland, that he has indeed received congratulatory phone calls from all Scottish party leaders, with the exception of Jac McConnell, or even Tony Blair or Gordon Brown. However he did receive calls of congratulation from other Labour politicians

#328 Upbeat
Correct now let me try to be objecvtive
The SNP are the leading party and deserve a shot.
Now, if the people see deliberate obstruction of policies in which threre has been broad agreement such as LIT they will take note.

At the end of the day the SNP will be judged on what its ALLOWED to deliver as well as its record of conduct.

If they have been popular then they will attract more votes -

Works both ways.

328

Another one eyed poster.
I welcome your comments on the issues but dont try and defend these two prats just because they pretend to represent your views.
They have explained or argued nothing they have been able to substanciate and when pressed they ignore any further debate and move onto somebody elses argument.
You are correct in that there has been very little proper debate but I noticed you are showing your bias in trying to put it all on SNP bloggers.
If you are concerned about the quality of these forums then complain about it evenly because both sides of the debate are guilty of stupid and irrelevant posts.

Now all of that said I agree the SNP will be unable or at least have a great deal of trouble delivering their manifesto promises without cooperation from other parties but so did Labour when they were in power whats different? we have never had a party in sole power in our Parliament history so why have a dig at the SNP about it.
Its Labours fault the Parliament is the sham it is.
when we acheive independence you will see how a Parliament is supposed to work.
And when has Labour ever spoken for the majority of the country when the majority never vote.
The majority in this country are undecided.

#332 ootside noo!

LOL

You are sad, I am totaly micking you like the Xenophobic (blood vessels bursting.LOL) No Life fool you are.

FRANKIE SAID RELAX IN 1984 MAN!

IF YOU NOTICE THIS NOTICE YOU WILL NOTICE THAT NOTICE ABOVE THAT AM2 NOTICES HE/SHE/IT(THE AM2 64 bit SPIN 2000 solution from DELL) IS A DIDDY! AND THE ONLY ONE SAD ENOUGH other than my larf. To read this far!

Wind IT up and watch it go!!!!

330

I dont know do you? I only know you and Duncan dont.

#328 - Makes a change eh, Labour have always thought they had the divine right to govern Scotland with far less than 50% of the vote. (and the Tories aren't blameless in this respect either).

So, did anyone actually listen or watch Alexander's performance today? What I got from it was that the Electoral Commission will have an inquiry and report back before the end of the Summer.

Several back bench Labour MP's were quite put out at this and risked the wrath of Wendy by suggesting a Judicial inquiry was the best way forward. Alexander with his incredible tactic of never looking at the person he's supposedly talking to studiously ignored their suggestion.

It's a sad day when I find myself agreeing with Tories.

What was that I was saying about handbags...??

Anyway, separatism only exists because the politicians are too polarised . Scotland and england (and wales and NI) can all have their own parliaments that does not mean a break up of the UK. That is just an extreme scare mongering xenophobic stance by polticians who are scared of change and do not wish to lose their cosy allowance and status. We may have the oldest parliament etc etc but what else in the world has not changed evolved or grown in the world over a period of 300 years apart from the act of union - need we say more!!!!

The article says: "But official election returns also suggest more than 25,000 people may also have accidentally used only one of their two votes on Thursday, as the Cragg Ross Dawson team found."

How would you know that only using one vote was a mistake? A voter who supported one of the smaller parties only standing in the regional list might well only vote once. Similarly, a voter might dislike an individual candidate, but be willing to vote for their party in the regional list - or they might like the constituency candidate personally, but not think that the regional list candidates were worth voting for.

It's possible only using one vote was a mistake, but how can we tell it wasn't on purpose?

#335 you wrote them. And a lot have read them. And nobody yet has told me i am lying other than you. I am just not sad enough to look for your keek in binary form.

This is passing funny. It's more like lion versus moose.

BACK AGAIN , you say? I only had time to respond! To your attempt at dignity saving. This trully is turning into a fight like a 7 foot man v Midget(or person of smaller stature)

SCOTLAND! NO PLACE FOR RACISM,BUT PLENTY ROOM FOR PEOPLE OF SHORT STATURE!

CAN WE NOT AWWLLL GETTALONG........

334 John

Yes, the big fish in small pond syndrome.

I like living in the small pond and so do my family.

Hopefully these politicians who are past their use by date end up the way of Helen Liddell on the other side of the planet.

345

Thats a good point my initial instinct with the council vote was to vote once and ignore the 2nd 3rd 4th choice options. Why would anybody have a 2nd or 4th candidate in mind from another party?
Most people have already made their minds up who they want by the time they reach the booth.
I honestly dont know what the thinking was behind the council ballot.

334 John

Do you know anything about the SW of England?

I'm keen to visit down there and would appreciate recommendations.

Hint: Food and drink!

I have noticed quite a few post relating to turnout and how no-one has a mandate because most folk didn't vote (not true 52% did vote).

If you didn't vote then - tough. It doesn't exactly take much effort and if you can't be bothered then your views are irrelevant.

I think another problem which no one has brought up is the prolideration of frivolous and fringe parties, which so clogged the ballot paper, that it would have taken 10 minutes to read.

The amount of deposit may be too small, but I would suggest that a nominations requirement of 250 electors for a constituency and 1000 electors on the list, would cut out the list candidates who had no chance of ever getting elected.

The result of the large number of parties and candidates on a two column ballot, meant the print was too small for those with poor eyesight who may have gone to the polls without their reading glasses.

The only saving grace was the party symbol. Undoubtedly, the simplicity and familiarity of the SNP symbol probably benefitted that party immensely.

304 - Im always intrested in English independence.

As England has no natural resources - gas, oil - How would England manage economically while existing as an energyless island ?

im sure the South would be fine but I think you would find N England would fall even further behind the south in many terms.

How many countrys in the G8 or top 20 have no oil or gas ?
as England would.

#346 your wearisome now. I have had my fun along with everyone else here. Allthough you haven't had much fun.

The SONG FOR AM2:

EVERY BODY!TO THE TUNE OF BOHEMIAN RHAPSODY!AND THE ANNOYANCE OF AM2!

Mother I just killed ma chance, wrote sum drivel on the net. Then i killed ma party deid.
OOOHHHHHH OOOH Sh*t I shout both my feet. But mibbe one day i'll stand tomorrow , carry oot carry oot! It dusnae really matter.

I am just a poor boy from a poor (now) Wee party. I though it would be easy come easy go, as the electorate are too dumb.

Any way the wind blows thats the party you'll find me ...............in...Next.....do dee doo doo dee doo all I now haveleft is doo dee doo.

It's official then.
All the major political parties in Scotland agreed to the ballot paper format. All that is except the Conservatives who offered no opinion - Or presumably finding one with an opinion was a task too far

351 NittonLover

No vote, no opinion.

I remain convinced that compulsory voting a la Australia is the way to go.

OK, you'll get a whack of deliberately spoiled papers but hopefully it will concentrate a few minds.

Do Modern Studies lessons in schools not teach about elections?

352 - That is a cornerstone of democracy - that nyone can stand reguardless of the number of votes they may get -Well that is until NU Labour decide to remove that freedom from the people.

353 Stu

England has quite a lot of gas with an extensive network of gas fields and pipelines off its east coast.

There is also the potential for oil exploration west of Cornwall.

I'm not sure of the quantities but a quick Google might help!

HURRAH! HE HAS GONE HAME WITH HIS BAW!

AND I CAN SHUT MA HOLE TOO :-)

It has though been fun though. :-)

bloomin eck my typings awful!

Can the last wan oot shut the lichts aff?

343

And yet Unionists on these forums will defend the man to the death.
I honestly dont understand the mentallity behind people who cannot see whats right in front of their faces.
If the SNP were to behave only half as bad as Labour I would ditch them quicker than dirty bath water and would repeat all of the comments I have said about Labour on these forums but directed at the SNP.
What do Labour have to do for their present supporters to recognise their complete immorale criminal and incompetant persona.
Even if they are not concerned about foreign policy all of them without exception has suffered under Labour Tax policy.
The Tories suffered badly because of one tax mistake but Labour rolls on after countless tax increases. I really dont understand it.
This country needs an enema.

I dont think it matters, opposition partys will have seen the paper and went thats ok - They would not and did not have the vast information that bawbag Zander had at his disposal

351

If you add the 48 per cent who didnt vote to the SNPs percentage then they would have a mandate but it doesnt work like that and it doesnt work the other way either.
The 48 per cent cant be added to the pro unionist count either therefore nobody has a mandate neither Unionist nor Nationalist there are too many undecided.

361 Boyce

I just don't understand it either.

Once upon a time the Labour party stood for fairness and equality and was against nuclear weapons.

You might not have voted for them but you respected them.

One poster the other day described the Labour voters as returning 'like dogs to their vomit'.

343&361 - Back to issue at hand (not YOU AM2) His next roll is promotion to westminister. A career poltico like hish shishter.

With finder general of scotland would be apt title. Man in the north would be another.

EITHER WAY LIKE THE CHURCHHILL DUG , AHHHHHHH YESHHHHHHHH....RESIGN?AHHHHHHH NOOOOOO.... And then hide till the fury dies down.

enema this country needs to call a free buckie evening in Glasgow and then nuke it to get rid of all the numptie Labourites

I reckon the Labourites that recognise the fact Buckie is minging can be spared but only if they go to the free wine and biscuits evening in Wishaw (payed for by Nu Labour of course) so they can at least be caught first in the fall out.

AM2 's gone quite. Perhaps he/She/It is asking scotsamn to remove the posts that dissagree? Looks like it

I refer to my decent and fair points in #240

#363 - They are NOT undecided, they are the "can't be arsed."

Don't Vote - Don't Count!

Its not too much to ask is it, 5 mins of your time, every few years.

AM2 is throwing rattle out pram. Because apparently I defaim his made up persona. LOL talk about real life crossing over into fiction. lol

BOOO HOOO! TOO AM2

SORRY AM2. It's TEATIME your away eating your humble pie?

#364 - I dont understand it either, Glasgow with all its problems, which Labour have failed to sort, still votes them in overwhelmingly. They must be brainwashed.

This dead-eyed Nu-Labour automaton is a disgrace. Bitter and twisted dosen't even start to sum him up. More than 100 000 Scots have been disenfranchised in the face of a strong SNP campaign. Suspicious? Or just incompetent?

Labour's campaign was a disgrace too. Dirty and threatening, Stalinist in nature... i hope this is the beginning of the end of Labour's power in Scotland.

Slight change of tack...

Im for (Aunty) Annabell Gouldie for presiding officer!
dont care if she doent want the job, she ticks all the boxes for me!

Really cant be anyone from SNP, as it was George Reid, who was the last presiding officer (he was SNP).
Cant think of anyone from Labour, as I think there all equally crap!, same goes for the Libdems

The only other contender is Margot MacDonald, who is an Independent and she actually is thinking of puting her name forward
Im looking at this from a non political viewpoint
Anyone got any favourites??

Do we have a free press or does the government control the media and press through grossly over paid message boys in senior positions? All to often it looks very much as though the media is the government’s propaganda machine and the most recent example of that is the lack of information about the correct way to fill out the ballot papers, which lead to the confusion about filling out the election papers correctly, not one of the local News papers informed us about how to mark the ballot papers correctly, perhaps they were as confused as we were and were afraid to admit it. The incomplete information we received through our letter box, informing us about how to fill in the polling paper said nothing about voting in order of preference in the council ballot paper and that simple act of distorted logic infected our reasoning and that has to be a deliberate act of sabotage, what else could it be, the facts speak for themselves. Douglas Alexander, the Scottish Secretary must be fired for gross untrustworthiness plus everything else you can fling at the little creep.

#373 i agree MArgo But annabel? And ticking the right boxes? Are You now going crusing for chicks at the morgue?

I only jest. The only probelm is the blairo clone cameron telling goldie how to vote. i believe she does have virtue and spine. Unlike the simile politico in labour.

But she really is crap at abseiling!

I say a gladiators style playoff between margo and annabel.

The events: Speed climbing, Thai boxing and a decider of tiddle winks if hung vote.......

Margo can climb mountains! And she is a wee battler for folk. I would rather have a few like her in the scottish parliament stuff the parties holding us back.

MARGO MARGO MARGO MARGO!!!! HOOO HAH!

:-)

Calum Crubag., #372
‘This dead-eyed Nu-Labour automaton is a disgrace. Bitter and twisted dosen't even start to sum him up. More than 100 000 Scots have been disenfranchised in the face of a strong SNP campaign. Suspicious? Or just incompetent?’ When I’m looking at it I’m think, what is the chance there are so many coincidences happening all at once, and with so many of the things being backed up with a ready excuse, such as a half a dozen English seats having the same problems with the machines. Notice I say only a half a dozen in England, strangely such a small number.

Oblivion., #374.
There were a great deal of methods used to lower the impact of the SNP so there wouldn't be an independence vote, and they worked.

Oblivion., #374.
If something looks like it is too good to be true, then it probably is, and that includes coincidences.

As Mr Mainwaring used to say,

" you stupid boy "

Hopefully we're not "doomed"

371

I've seen Labour in action in Glasgow. They have/had a very strong organisation based on their council wards. Ambulances and mini-buses of aged Labour voters arrive all day at the polling stations, all organised by the councillors. With a 30 - 40% turnout this makes a huge difference in many seats

Also, it has to be said that the SNP are not well organised in most of Glasgow. Too many bampot activist as well.

This could all change with Labour losing so may of its old councillors. But the SNP has to improve and get the people who rely on the government for support to stop being scared of independence. The SNP has to excite them and get them motivated to get out and vote.

Donny., #379.
I am a SNP supporter, and want independence, and unless a miracle happens now, I know we are doomed.

I am wondering why, if the unionist parties don't think the Scottish people would vote for independence, they don't allow a vote on it to rid themselves of the issue for another thirty years or so.

I've just returned to this thread and am disgusted by the character assassination that certain individuals feel is an appropriate form of debate. I'm not surprised that posts are disappearing at a rate. I have never reported a post in my time on these boards, because I prefer to have the evidence of people's views on show for all to judge, but clearly some people have deemed it necessary to complain and I cannot blame them.

There are many people here who hold very different opinions, and most are able to express them, sometimes forcefully but rarely cruelly, and engage in strong, interesting debate. Others simply lack the erudition or intelligence to follow such a debate, and and up hurling insults instead. Others still are so wound up in their views and so convinced of their victimhood that they see anyone who disagrees with them as a legitimate target for vitriolic abuse. This is simply unacceptable behaviour and essentially ruins the forum for genuine debate.

It is also absolutely beneath contempt for posters to start fabricating quotations from others to make them appear to hold views which they do not hold. It is juvenile and deeply hurtful. It is also entirely unnecessary.

There are vitally important points at issue in Scottish politics today. The issues are complex and the answers will not all trip off the tongue in a soundbite. Confusion abounds as to what is happening, what should happen, what is legal, necessary, understood or not understood. I and many others want to take advantage of this forum for debate in order to explore these issues and come to understandings on them. It is shameful that such debate should be blocked by the smears and lies of those who appear unable and unwilling to discuss things fairly.

JuanKerr your posts are littered with misquotes, insults and derision and you shout down any reasonable response which exposes you.

Boyce you are little better, attempting to whip up personal animosity against indi

A. Supported by this quote and conventional ethics, I'd say that Douglas Alexander can't be so stupid/naive to think that the Electoral Commission could impartially and properly investigate itself: "Alex Salmond, the SNP leader, has demanded a full judicial inquiry into the decisions leading up to the election, arguing that the commission cannot be impartial because it was involved in the ballot-paper decision. Mr Alexander has rejected the SNP call, and insists the commission is the right body to investigate. . . . "The Electoral Commission is carrying out its own review, but I think there needs to be a wider one than that because some of the things that happened were outwith the remit of the commission itself," [Lord Steel, the former presiding officer of the Scottish Parliament] said, adding that he wanted to see "a wide-ranging practical inquiry - not a public inquiry, but a really good investigation into all the factors that led to the shambles of the count".

B. How about this seemingly obvious question, "How could the Electoral Commission approve any ballot, no matter its ranking amongst others, that had such an high confusion rate?" Even if shrimp feces is more palatable than cow feces, it's still unacceptable.

382

The only thing you know about honest genuine debate is how to avoid it.
Dont give us this innocent I dont deserve this abuse and why is it happening to me crap because it doesnt wash with anybody anymore.
You are dishonest, sickeningly bias, selective in your arguments use dodgy parameters to misrepresent selected facts and hypocritical to the extent I cant believe youre complaining about abuse. You yourself are not beneath abusing posters and talking down to them.
If I were you I would be too ashamed to post anymore I would be too embarrased to lend my name to some of the comments you have posted over the weeks.
If you want genuine debate then post genuine comments and be prepared to back them up with honest fact not spin and lies and try answering a few questions directed your way for a change.
If you cant get into the way this is done bugger off you will certainly not be missed.
If you continue to post your garbage then expect the abuse your comments provoke and dont complain about it.
Now put up or shut up.

383

Absolutely correct its akin to criminals policing themselves or giving burglers the keys to your home and asking them to watch it for you.
It will be a white wash something Labour has become masters off.

Something to contemplate for all the anti SNP doomsayers who claimed that there would be a general exodus of businesses, big and small, if the SNP won.

In the BBC Scotland news it was announced at lunchtime today that an American company would invest £250,000,000 in a biomedical centre in Edinburgh, making Scotland one of the ten most important medical research centres in the world.

From today’s Herald… “Just 48 hours before lodging its candidature file in London, the organising committee confirmed a sixth major commercial backer of the city’s bid [for the 2014 Commonwealth Games] – global drinks conglomerate Diageo.
The announcement was made at the company’s cooperage in Port Dundas, with the help of Scottish hammer record-holder Shirley Webb.
They join BBC Scotland, Clydesdale Bank, First Group, Highland Spring, and O2, whose overall backing is worth an estimated £1.5m.”

RBS to make a £49 billion bid for ABNAmro….

Hardly rats deserting a sinking ship!!!

Oh yes, and last night John Higgins became Snooker World Champion for the second time, replacing Scot, Graham Dott.

# 353 Stu

Most people accept that we can't go on burning fossil fuels ... the overall impact of it seems to be slowly killing the planet.

Therefore, I would expect English people to innovate and come up with a non-fossil fuel and preferrably non-nuclear alternative.

That could include geo-thermal.

It is hot down there and it might be possible one day, via maybe nano-technology, to tap that source of power.

#384 You are, of course, proving my point in this continuation of a character assassination.

"You are dishonest" - prove it. Show me one single instance of dishonesty from me. Not something you feel was unfair, not something you just disagree with, something dishonest. Just one link to it.

"sickeningly bias" - you mean I disagree with your point of view? get used to it. Your point of view is largely bunk.

"selective in your arguments" - I consider that a compliment. It is a prerequisite of debate to be selective in ones arguments.

"use dodgy parameters to misrepresent selected facts" - again, prove it. Show me one post of mine which has done that. I don't mean things you think are unfair, I mean things that are provably misrepresented.

"hypocritical" - again, prove it. Show me one post of mine which contains provable hypocrisy.

"try answering a few questions directed your way" - I assume this is in reference to your continued, dogged intrusion into details of my personal life? I will not entertain any more questions on the subject of my personal life, because it is utterly inappropriate for this forum. Questions on any other subject I will usually be happy to answer but I am not at your or anyone's beck and call.

388

I rest my case.

#328(Upbeat), I agree with yours, "Now we have the wonderful situation of a parliament containing a leading party that will be quite unable to deliver on its manifesto, except where this coincides with the wishes of one or more of the opposing party."

#382(Duncan), I agree with your citation and condemnation of the petty bickering not that the targets haven't been guilty as well. Yet, it's easier said than done. I believe that everyone gains by having opposing points of view presented here.

#6(az), I am saddened by your condemnation of Scots as if subhuman, "Basically is the concensus that all of scotland are stupid - we are led to believe this - The voting papers were quite clear mark x on this one and numbers on the other - There is no doubt some people who were confused by a simple task but is more than likely down to the inadequate computer scanners and programs installed for this occassion also should many of the voting papers also have been printed in different languages so that our foriegn friends who are now here knew what they were doing . . .. As a previous commenter did say if individuals cannot understand that than are they really likely to be making the right choice when they vote ?" If you meant to shift blame to the electronic equipment, you failed to do so with me. The world of legal affairs if full of ambiguity, vagueness, and unintended as well as intended deception. I think that we would do well to accept the experiences, observations, and complaints of those in the focus groups as every bit as authoritative as those of jurors.

391

#328(Upbeat), I agree with yours, "Now we have the wonderful situation of a parliament containing a leading party that will be quite unable to deliver on its manifesto, except where this coincides with the wishes of one or more of the opposing party."

So whats changed? Labour couldnt deliver on any of its policies without the Lib Dems. Youre making it out that this is something new that has just happened because the SNP are now the largest party. So whats the point you are trying to make?

I welcome opposing points of view there is no debate without it. But there are honest opposing points of view and there are dishonest opposing points of view. I will react differently to the two different points of view wouldnt you?

386 Joe 90

You need to get those tartan-tinted specs changed. Do you seriously think that what you quoted has all just happened since Thursday night?

Oh, and aye, I'm sure Higgins would never have won but for the election. Pure shyte. How come the boy Murray got beat in the tennis then?

BTW you forgot one - Fergie's ninth English title. How much of that do you think was down to Alex Salmond?

Now away and watch that rubbish cowboy in the heather movie Braveheart. You're missing it right now.

if the politicians say they are all upright and respect the view of the electorate why are they all so determined to rule roost. The voters voted for not one majority party. Jack McConnell waiting in background to cobble a new government misses the point. The majority (that voted) do not want Jack and his colleagues, a smaller majority do not want SNP an even bigger majority however neither want Lib DEMS nor Tory. These two parties do not have a mandate to decide collectively the policies the Scottish people have to get, that is what a parliament is for, not a back room done secretly.
Let the SNP get on with it and let Scotland get on with first of all not allowing another elctoral shambles. Here Alex Salmond has at least shown a positive move again by wanting an independent judicial enquiry, as opposed to labour wanting an inhouse cover up!!!!

#388 - I notice you never appear when AM2 is in tirrade mode?

only when your able to login and out do you appear? e.g. after big autonomous AM2 Tirade. i like the slight change of writing style to fool us.

Either that or your both more closeley involved. I Responded to AM2s challenge. He brought out the quote where I was quoting him 2 -3 days previously(their has been somuch drivel from him it's hard to keep up).

So go Ask AM2 or yourself as you both appear one in the same.

Reporting posts under another login for making you /it both look like clowns erradicating the argument knowing full well Scotsman staff never read the actual comment. They receive a complaint , they bin it without follow up.

Have a nice day DUNCAM

326 Edward

"#293 scotleag
Your a t*at!"

Oh, I do wonder how I managed to fail to be seduced by the wit, wisdom and sheer eloquence of the SNP.

All I asked for was some evidence that in 1999 and the 2003 the SNP had behaved in the same manner as they are insisting Labour does now.

I have yet to see any. So sorry if that upsets you. Get back to me when you've finished watching Braveheart again

#393(Boyce), "'#328(Upbeat), I agree with yours, "Now we have the wonderful situation of a parliament containing a leading party that will be quite unable to deliver on its manifesto, except where this coincides with the wishes of one or more of the opposing party.' So whats changed? Labour couldnt deliver on any of its policies without the Lib Dems. Youre making it out that this is something new that has just happened because the SNP are now the largest party. So whats the point you are trying to make?"------My hope is that SNP will be in a position to form and direct a coalition into a direction away from Labour's views and methods. If there is to paralysis, then I would abandon, and apologize for, my view. My view is not immutable and no substitute for the practical knowledge and experiences of you Scots.

"I welcome opposing points of view there is no debate without it. But there are honest opposing points of view and there are dishonest opposing points of view. I will react differently to the two different points of view wouldnt you?"-----Yes, preferably to point out the dishonesty not get unnecessarily personal.

#382 - IS YOUR ERRONEOUS RANT AND LECTURE OVER?

AS THE OLD SAYING GOES. PEOPLE IN GLASS HOUSES SHOULD NOT THROW STONES. OR MISS REPRESENTED FACTS AND SLURS.

AM2 = as well as the elction stich up. your the fraud. Stop crying Like wee dougie.

You stuck your neck out for week. Now it's time to get it chewed off. Reporting posts as abbusive for questions you ask a response too is not on. Just because they disagree with your slanted view?

This is the same as people deciding the election and your party trying use the courts to weasel out of it.

#397(Scotleag) & #326(Edward), please read #382(Duncan in Edinburgh).

155 Duncan

Here we go Duncan lying out of your teeth and you have actually used this lie a few times.

And given that the SNP's seat tally was largely taken from them (16 seats) rather than from Labour (only 4 seats), perhaps the SNP shouldn't be complaining too loudly about this...?

When if fact the SNP took a total of 9 seats from Labour.

Cunninghame north
Dundee West
Edinburgh East
Fife Central
Glasgow Govan
Kilmarnock
Livingston
Stirling
Western Isles.

And thats only today. Like I said before if the shoe fits.

398

What do you do when pointing out the dishonesty is ignored and the dishonesty continues repeatedly?

Is Andy O'Neill still head of the Electoral Commission, or is he now in a more suitable position ie on his knees?

#384
Some fine poetry:

be prepared
to back them up
with honest fact
not spin and lies

But I'm troubled with the phrase "honest fact".

And then again in #393

"there are honest opposing points of view
and there are dishonest opposing points of view"

What are you talking about?

398

I dont really understand the first part of your post.
you pointed out that the SNP are in a minority and will be unable to legislate from that position without forming a coalition with another party which is perfectly true but since the Parliament formed in 1993 we have always been in this situation with no one party having overall control. Maybe you didnt realise this?

There would be a lot less confusion if the truth was put on the ballot papers.

Conservative Party (Scotland)
Labour Party (Scotland)
Liberal DemocRAT Party (Scotland)
Scottish National Party

I am sure we would all know who we were voting for.

#401 If you consider that a lie then I begin to understand why you accuse me of lying. You are mistaken.

As I said in the post from which you pulled that quote, the seat tally in the 2003 election was Labour 50, SNP 27. The seat tally in this election was Labour 46 (down 4) SNP 47 (up 20). By simple calculation that 20 consists of 4 seats taken off Labour, 16 seats taken off the minor parties.

Now you rightly point out that the SNP won a total of 9 *constituency* seats from Labour. But thanks to the way our PR system works, because Labour's share of the vote in those areas didn't drop half so dramatically as that, 5 of those seats were "recompensed" under the list system. That's how the top-up list works. So the total loss from Labour to the SNP was 4 seats, not 9.

I cheerfully contend that what you are calling a lie is simply a different, perfectly valid interpretation of the truth. I would go further and suggest that, since the election should be looked at as a whole, not as the constituency votes and the regional votes in separate piles, my interpretation is more accurate than yours. But I would never call you a liar on the back of your assertion. It's just different.

404

If you express a point of view you dont believe then its dishonest. isnt it?

If two people express opposing points of view they both believe then they are both being honest even though one of them must be wrong. yes/no?

#scotleag
Normally, I would not demean myself by replying to such a personally insulting attack, but I realise that your single brain cell must have overheated in the preparation of your post and I therefore feel that it is incumbent on me to puit you right. We can all descend to the vernacular and such insults but it is not clever.
I am fairly intelligent, being a former British diplomat, and I realise that the negotiations for these excellent investments have no doubt been going on for some time. However, the point I was making was that these companies are still investing in Scotland in spite of the results of the election which, after all, took place five days ago - plenty of time to reverse or cancel negotiations. Businesses do not, to my mind, seem to be abandoning the good ship, Scotland. OK?
My comment on young Higgins was a bit tongue in cheek and an indication that some Scots are quite good at some endeavours. Young Mr Murray may have lost his last match but he is still no 10 in the world and the world, even if you don't, recognises this point. You can't win 'em all, as Labour has found to its discomfort!
To which Fergie do you refer? Is it something Scottish?
As to the film 'Braveheart', I suggest that anyone with a modicum of knowledge of Scottish history would realise that it was just a bit of enjoyable light entertainment, if somewhat inaccurate. You know, Wallace did not really marry an English princess and he definitely did not speak with an American accent and I seriously doubt that the Scottish army presented their @rses to the English army (well maybe one or two did). I also doubt that the Scots painted their faces with woad but there you are, that's Hollywood, not Holyrood!
Finally, get a life!!

407

Unbelievable I dont have to prove a thing you will prove my point just by continuing to post.
Duncan that is a classic definition of the word spin.
The nine seats were won by the SNP by taking the constituencies in this election as listed above now that is a cold honest hard fact.
Maybe you would like to list the 4 seats you think the SNP took and explain who one the other 5?
And try doing it without spinning.

Re 396 JuanKerr.

Your suspicions are probably correct. If you go to my posting 101, followed by his reply #103, you will find that "Duncan in Edinburgh" admitted he and AM2 are one and the same.

#414 And if you go to 's' in the dictionary you'll find sarcasm. As I suspect you well know.

Following on from my post #414, I wouldn't be at all surprised if most of the unionist diatribes posted on this site (and, indeed on that of the Herald) are concocted by the same person or team from the labour central office department of misinformation,rebuttal and propaganda (Team leader Duncan & AM2)

415. AM2. I am2 prepared to believe you [or your party(Scotland)] managed to vote up to 1.3 million times.

And now....back to the debate.

187. Eddie D. Thanks for a link to the facts!

It is clear that at best major mistakes were made in the lead up to the election resulting in the fiasco we saw.
Several organisations and individuals were involved and the electoral commiusion have questions over its own role. Anything less than a full public or judicial inquiry is simply not good enough.

Nobody is innocent here with the SNP changing the names on the list and the Scottish ministers (effectively Labour and LIBS) ignoring good advice.

I do love this quote: Minister for Finance and Public Service Reform Tom McCabe said:

"The use of e-counting will provide quick, accurate and reliable results in the 2007 elections.

100% wrong, oops. Not quicker, less acurate and proved unreliable also. Dear oh dear.

Anyway I digress. ALL aspects need looked at Ranging from severe issues: possible (likely?) fraud with postal votes; to minor issues: such as complexity of the forms, order and naming of names on the papers).
The boundary areas and jerrymandering issues also need looking at independently and any changes implemented prior to the UK Gerneral election.

#408 Boyce

Thanks for clearing that up. Here's my honest opinion.

You really are an offensive idiot, probably more than any other on this forum. Some people are just downright rude. But you are really nasty. Throughout this thread, you make reference to AM and Duncan, accusing them of lying and being "troll trash". You accuse them of trying to stifle debate, yet you encourage others not to "try and defend these two prats". You dismiss other's opinions as insincere, presumably justifying yourself the use of the words "lie" and "dishonest". As a supporter of independence, I'd rather listen to AM's and Duncan's opinions over yours any day of the week.

#415 & 416 Oooh, the pleasure!!!! How I love to see you bite and champ at the bit. I get the same pleasure from rattling the windows of parked cars with little rumbustious terries and large alsatians inside growling at passers by. You (1 or 2) take the bait so magnificently. Doesn't it add a little bi of vire to the discussion??

You're just using two of the 16 computors now.

417

You could certainly be forgiven for thinking they are.
Personally I think we are dealing with a split personality. He may actually believe he is 2 or 3 different posters dont forget the other persona Media 1.

422

I think that sums up my day today quite nicely.

Just for the record are you a unionist nationalist or dont care?

Re# 408

The thesis of having opposing points of view does not necessarily require one of them to be wrong. They could both be. Points of view are different from fact, and even then, facts can be interpreted differently. Just because a person has a different point of view does not mean he or she is wrong: merely different.

Rightness or wrongness is in the mind of the beholder. It is, however, somewhat immoral when a person holds a particular point of view ad argues for the contrary; hence the reason why Advocates are duty bound in ethics not o defend a premise which they know to be wrong.

#413 If you read my response instead of just reacting you'll see that I totally agree with your cold honest hard fact. Calm down for just one minute and read what I wrote.

In the context from which you took my words, I was talking about the overall result of the election. To slip into your modus for a moment, the shift from 27-50 to 47-46 is also a cold honest hard fact, isn't it? Therefore the difference of 4 seats is also a cold honest hard fact, yes?

There are always different ways of looking at things. Listen to a good political orator some time - Alex Salmond, for example. He will usually deal in cold honest hard facts too, but like I did, he will pick the facts that suit his argument. That is the nature and essence of debate.

You and I have had disagreements in the past about the workability of the SNP's local income tax plans. I have pointed out the cold honest hard fact that under the current constitutional settlement it cannot be properly funded (I'm talking specifically about the inability under the Scotland Act to raise the higher rate of tax as specified in the SNP manifesto). You have generally responded with the cold honest hard fact that the SNP intends to change the constitutional settlement in order to make it work. It's a fair argument, all based on facts, but while you conveniently ignore my facts, I conveniently ignore yours. That is politics, Boyce.

Dishonesty is something I too feel very strongly about. I do not consider myself a dishonest person in any aspect of my life. I am ready and able to have a robust political debate any day of the week, but be very careful with your accusations.

#426 "Just for the record are you a unionist nationalist or dont care?"

Right. So when did you give up pleasuring the sheep?

#408 Boyce having re-read this I must pick up on this as well. You are accusing me not only of lying but of presenting views which *I* do not believe! That is absolutely untrue. And why on earth would I do such a thing? Do you think this way because your views are so trenchant that you cannot believe anyone could oppose them honestly? That is quite alarming.

re#427
If you're worried about being lied about, I suggest you take the matter up with duncan if he told an untruth about your status in reply to my early posting in which I made an enquiring suggestion. You see,it's very difficult in an internet discussion to decide if the person one is endeavouring to have that discussion with is the person whom he/she purports to be or merely an ephemeral object.

Anyway, I'm off to have some non-ephemeral beer. I'll be back later. Then I'll enjoy the great philosophical arguments of the day with regard to unionism V nationalism; and, of course if Douggie Alexander really does look too smug for his own good in his Hootsmon photo.

#421

Come off it. We're not fooled. We all know the timing of your posts coincides with the periods that US spy satellites are overhead. :-)

Why were Labour voters more confused than SNP voters?

In additon to 419, while I think the SNP played their own part in the voting fiasco I had doubts about the statement that the SNP supported the systems put in place for the election. So I checked...

In the commons today there were questions about the events and all the parties were in favour of the Single paper. This is as far as other parties were involved. The SNPs response was: “The Scottish National Party is in support of the proposed move to a single ballot paper for both votes in the Scottish Parliament elections. We believe that this will aid understanding of both elements of the voting system and, in particular, remove any misunderstanding that the regional vote is somehow a second preference vote”

The Torys didnt bother to respons at all !!
See:
http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/our-communications/relea...

You can see the secretary of state wants the eleceotral commision to do the inquiry and limit the scope of the investigation.

Anyway http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/6299 shows where the decisions lay and who put them through:
Taken jointly by Scottish Ministers and the Secretary of State for Scotland.

It appears that they were simply mistaken on how complex the single form would be.

However this is just part of the fiasco, there needs a root and branch investigation and proposals for reform from A to Z.

#434 Speaking of which, where's that fella that was flying all over the country yesterday or the day before? Every post from a different place. I think he was in geostationary orbit.

429

No it isnt. We are not politicians at least I am not.
Its the lies deceipts and spin that make the word politician a dirty word.
If you want to behave like a politician on these forums then dont complain about being abused because there is nothing more loathsome in my book short of a paedophile than a politician

Now The difference of 4 seats only applies to the count difference from 2003 to 2007 and does not reflect the 2007 election on its own merits.
We have not been discussing the 2003 elections nor comparing them in these forums but only the 2007 election and in that context you lied in saying the SNP only took 4 seats from Labour IN THE 2007 elections when if cold hard honest fact they took 9.
Your logic completly ignores the other parties winning and losing seats from/to both Labour and the SNP.
But please carry on your only labelling my point.

421. AM2. Why would you need 2 PCs. 2 different browser sessions would be enough. Not that I think you and Duncan are the same person, just you and AM ;°)

Glad the Scotsman is putting some heat on the Scottish secretary. hard to think of a more obnoxious figure in politics. he's spent most of the last week trying to extricate himself from both the voting debacle and the failed Labour campaign.

Why were Labour voters more confused than SNP voters?

430

Why would I give it up?

435. bion, Durban. I am not sure any group was more or less confused than any other. With so many spoiled or missing votes its difficult to say.

However the cheeky answer to your questoin would be that since the Labour party MSPs and the FM were all 'very, very, very' confused over council tax going into the election is it any wonder their voters were not equally confused.

Adding the extra bands on the voting papers are as good an idea as the extra bands on the council tax ;°)

So either Labour wanted to screw up the elections on purpose to make Scotland look foolish, can't even hold a vote properly and thus cannot rule ourselves. Or they thought it would confuse the voters enough they would just vote Labour again!

Is Mrs Alexander proud of her two? Judging from what I know of children they must have fought constantly as they cannot be consistent in an debate and are forever pulling faces at their opponents - just like my twin 5 year olds!

It appears Brian Ferguson, a Scotsman Publications reporter is a pedophile. Please email the company to demand an investigation.

It's about time that only taxpayers got to vote. Then we'd get a Government elected by the people who have to pay for it!

441

Because they voted for Labour was that a trick question?

412 Joe 90

"I am fairly intelligent, being a former British diplomat"

The former is not a precondition to be the latter.

What you were doing was a sneaky wee attempt to try and pretend that a few current announcements could in some way be presented as proof of at least a neutral impact on the economy of and SNP administration. Mr Salmond is not yet First Minister. No legislation has been announced. Events which have been the in the negotiating process for months or years won't be cancelled in five days. As a former diplomat I would have thought you knew that. Then again my opening sentence in this post may be truer to the mark than I imagined.

The Fergie to whom I refer is, as I suspect even former diplomats know fine well, is the greatest football manager of his generation - and, arguably, of all time. Perhaps his well-known Labour affinities prevent you from acknowledging his achievements? Which would be a bit petty, wouldn't it?

My only point of disagreement with you about Braveheart is the use of the word 'somewhat' to describe its inaccuracies. I prefer to use the word 'gross.'

Yes, it's Hollywood, not Holyrood. Seems a pity that Alex Salmond used it as a basis for recruitment, doesn't it? A grossly inaccurate script, fronted by an anti-English bigot and appealing to a sentimental and warped view of Scottish history with factual events replaced by romantic whimsy.

Just not like Eck at all, is it?

#438 And I am not a politician either, but we are talking politics! And as I said, this is the nature of political debate, not politicians debate, political debate, which is what we are having.

And as I also said, you too have indulged in the same robust debating method, as you ignored or denied my cold honest hard fact about the inability to raise the higher rate of tax. So don't come preaching to me about style of debate.

Your argument that "we have not been discussing the 2003 election" belies the fact that in the post from which you took my words for which you are castigating me, I was talking specifically about the comparison between this election and the 2003 one. Go back and look if you don't believe me. And it must have also escaped your attention that when you talk about "seats gained" you are implicitly talking about the 2003 election - that was the baseline from which the seats were gained!

You need to get past the knee-jerk accusation "you lied". I have explained quite clearly that I did not lie. I presented the facts in a different way to your presentation. To illustrate that, let me argue against you in the same way you are arguing against me:

"The taking of 9 seats only applies to the constituency difference between 2003 and 2007 and does not reflect the entire 2007 election including regional top-ups. In that context you lied in saying the SNP took 9 seats from Labour IN THE 2007 elections when if cold hard honest fact they took 4."

I don't argue like that because I know you didn't lie, just as I didn't lie. But either position can be called a lie if you take that attitude.

450

Like I said Duncan just keep posting.
You will prove my argument for me better than I could and without offending bordermans sensibilities.

#447 Well if those on benefits were denied the vote Labour would struggle. Labour might punish those on low wages trying their best but they love dishing out ever increasing benefits to the work shy.

Is that what you meant?

451

9 in the 2007 elections.

Perhaps Camelot should do the next electronic election, voter fills in selection card, operator prcesses card, elector receives verification receipt and can check their intentions to voting effect.

All done at the local shop or national lottery terminal

Technology is there, camelot in the community with confidence in their system

Win win ?

Instructions on the ballot paper(s) were in simple plain English.
It seems that since more than 100000 ballot papers were not accepted as valid , Scotland has a (il)literacy problem.

179 - mandatory voting. what about those of us who choose not to vote ? Democracy my arse !

448. Boyce, Edinburgh. No, not a trick question. The article is entitled "Confusion over ballot papers predicted nine months ago". I can't help but wonder why a ruling party, when they drew up the ballot papers, would think that their opposition party voters would be any more confused than their own voters. If that was indeed the intention, then it appears their own Labour voters were more confused & their plan back-fired!!!

#446 That is a strange and potentially libellous post. What are you playing at?

179 - sorry I meant 197 (nittonlover). Anyway at least I got my ballot papers right !

#458 If you are suggesting that there was NO conspiracy then I must warn you, such views are harshly dealt with around here. :-)

#453 Paula
I would like to see everyone join the tax paying economy - should that happen, we would have less examples of people voting for a Government that is committed to encouraging wasters to remain that

356 - another anti-democrat

Why do scots whenever they have a moment to sieze the initiative, fail, and persist in so called internal intellectual squabbles for the benefit of others while missing the bigger picture?
Other countries reap the benefits and Scotland ends up with very little. That is why Westminster and England have always prospered more and Scotland feeds on the breadcrumbs.

#459
The Edinburgh Evening News printed a front page article today about one of the newly elected SNP MSP's being a Nazi because his father was in the SS. It appears part of the fallout from the Evening news article is the revelation that the reporter is a child molester.

Why were the ballot papers in English and not in English and Gaelic as the Scottish Executive is pouring so much money into the language?

458

It doesnt really matter what matters is that this election is in disrepute and constitutionally should be held again in full under proper independent supervision or else we have no international credibility and cannot in all conscience complain about other countries such as Zimbabwe or indeed the US. If Douglas Alexander had an ounce of decency he would resign but if he had an ounce of decency he wouldnt be a high flyer in the Labour party.
The whole thing is a national embarrasment not least for making a significant number of our population look stupid.

Given the greeting by the labour party and its failed MSP's are they now revisionists or just in denial?

463

And how many did the Lib Dems take from Labour?