Let them want in one hand and crap in the other, let's see which fills up first.

Exactly Combatvet.
Its absurd and not worth the ink to print the story.
Thank you Ms. Pelosi. let's see what other fertilizer you've spread about

Obviously #1 and #2 are Republican supporters of the war criminal Bush. Not that they are biased, of course.

According to the Palestinians, yes.

"Obviously #1 and #2 are Republican supporters of the war criminal Bush. Not that they are biased, of course." -Guga.

I'm sure #1 and #2 are biased, but I hope you're not blind to the bias in your words either.

As for the 1000 Palestinains being worth one Isareli--I hope/doubt the Palestinains don't beleive that. Or they would see 1/1000 of an Israli worth as much as one of their men--not exactly flattering to themselves. However, they do seem to believe that they deserve 1000 times more then what they plan on giving. Right or not?

They admit their lack of worth. Expecting 1000 of their rabble to be exchanged for one man. These people have little social bond, beyond the mob mentality.

Given that the terrorist state of Israel holds approximately 10,000 Palestinian men, women and children in prisons; without trial and without legal representation, it is not surprising that the Palestinians want them released.

Like the Americans, with their illegal detention of people in Guantanamo Bay, without trial and without legal representation, the Israelis also torture their prisoners.

#6-Blimp-"The Israeli's are no better or worse than the Germans"
A bit extreme, don't ya think? Or maybe I missed the news the day it was reported that the Israelis rounded up palestinians and shower-gassed & put them in an oven. Or maybe you missed all the reports where palestinian terrorist groups like fattah and hamas are killing each other for control?

A 1000 for 1, they're havin a laugh ain't they

Sounds like a good deal to me. The offer won't hold for long though; when Palestine has nuclear capability, they'll take 1000 Israelis for every Palestinian.

Interesting comments from the racist, anti-semitic gallery of comentators, especially Guga and thatscottishwoman. While you are entitled to remain biased and uneducated, perhaps you would enlighten us all about the sources of your "data" 10,000 prisoners kept without trial, and 400 children held by Israel?

While Israel has returned the Gaza Strip to Palestinian Control more close to 2 years ago, the Israeli soldier was kidnapped from Israel proper. He is held just like our own journalist (Johnston) without trial, without access to international institutions (red Cross), by a bunch of terrorists directly controlled by the "Palestinian Government". How dare you compare this with the imprisonment of terrorists who have access to legal representation, have gone through trials in open courts, and found guilty based on the evidence provided, and their own admissions. Terrorists who have planned, and executed mass murders of civilian men women children and the elderly.

I assume that you would also advocate the release of the 7/7 terrorists who killed some 56 Brits in London for the release of the journalist Johnstone held by Hamas terrorists in Gaza?

#9 American

Dont you think its a bit rich of the powers in the west, especially Bush and Blair shouting about spreading freedom and DEMOCRACY, and then turn around and do everything they can to cripple the DEMOCRATICALLY elected hamas government, just because it doesn't fit in with what they or the Israelis want.
What would you have the Palestinians do, just sit there and give up. They have tried their way to get their land back, they have tried the wests way, and still, (and lets be clear about who is really pulling the strings here) Israel denies their right to a homeland and a basic right to exist on their OWN terms.
The Israelis may not be gassing Palestinians but by denying them that basic right to exist on their own terms they are treating the Palestinians as outcasts, just as the nazi's did to them.

djookers - ain't the israeli govt democratically elected then? including the palestinian born who live there as citizens? ain't the uk? the us?
nothing magic about democracy, just means a majority of voters - as slim as bush's, or a minority of the electorate - like blair's and _all_ brit govts, voted someone to do their thinking for 'em.
the soviet union was a thoroughgoing democracy also as i recall....
and the germans voted hitler in. i don't think you're proposing we demand apologies and reparation from the usa the uk and the allies for declaring war on that govt?
and what would you be saying about a nisraeli govt that was demanding 1000 israeli prisoners to release 1 palestinian?

Sound about right, quite a good exchange rate.

The Palestinians do have the right to exist and are recognized; it is the actions of their government that prevent a quality of life.
The Palestinians themselves deny themselves prosperity- it is not Israel who has put them in that state of decline. If they are not happy with the circumstances they find themselves in they need only to elect a new government.
A peace for both countries and a sovereign prosperous Palestinian state is attainable with only a few words: " Israel has the right to exist."

14. Homo Sapiens

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3130623.stm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-07-08-palestinian...

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/07/06/children-politic...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1283933,00.html

http://www.zajel.org/article_view.asp?newsID=3107&cat=7

And as for the Red Cross:

http://www.redcross.ca/article.asp?id=000751&tid=001

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1828142,00.html

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/784358.html

http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/palestine-s...

16. nuneaton

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.

US: Florida scrub lists? Ohio counting machines?
UK:Bliar in on 26% of vote but with huge majority in commons? "Not in our name" demos?
BOTH: News papers and other media promoting a particular line? Bliar visiting Murdoch just before the Sun turned pre-New Labour?

There is no "democracy", anywhere!

#16 Nuneaton

That's the point you are missing, all of these governments are democratically elected. They are the one's who said to the Palestinians that if they wanted progress on the road map and a chance at their own sovereign nation they would have to have a democratically elected government.
So the Palistinians voted, in what was by all accounts a free and fair election. The western governments, and Israel in particular didnt like the result and immediately tryed to cripple the democratically elected government. You cant get more hypocritical than that.
From a Palistinian perspective, what was the point, and why should they continue to do what the west wants only to be kicked in the face at every turn

Let us go thru the streets of Damascus, as that is the road to peace.

#20 Carolyn

The Israelis have held back millions that do not belong to them, but to the palestinians that is what is denying them prosperity.

Why should they elect a new government, the one they have is democratically elected, are you saying that they should keep voting until they come up with one that you and Israel likes.

That's a bit like saying you agree with freedom of speech, as long as everybody is saying things you agree with. Where is the freedom in that?

Dragonhead. Shut up! Theres a bit of name calling to yourself!! I do not take your views seriously after the way you treat other posters!!

28. "Muslim countries are the complete antithesis of Democracy"
See!! that is an example of your complete racist/religionist views!!
The fact of the matter is that the US has been subverting the course of real democrasy for 100 years! Just because the outcome doesnt suit them.
And what about china then? My my, commiting cultural genocide in tibet. Very democratic.
This is a fact: Israel under US juristiction has been subverting the course of peace in palestine for well over 30 years. Want me to rake out some quotations for you to prove this?

26 "We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there. and we use it as a Springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab Nations to join us for the final blow against Israel".
There is very much anger in Palestine. People have lived under years of opression and want to give them something to believe. Do you really think Palestinians can actually get back any of their teritory when Israel are proposing a "land for peace" agreement.
You give us your land, and we will leave you alone.

28. "Revile me as much as you wish talking about Arabs and Democracy is like saying Stalin and Adolf were buddies!!"
No, was it not Roosovelt and Stalin were good buddies? Did he not refer to him as "Old Joe"?!

This is not namecalling, this is a statement of fact. Dragonhead, you are very ignorant and your views are dangerous for your own mental wellbeing.

#11 Bill- first part not true, 2nd part is true
#13 what is the 'source' for of the 400 hostage children
#17 not a functioning site
#18 only from your narrowed point of view
#25 obviously you ignore the terms, or can you not read?
#27 the site is irrelvant to the issue, and dated as well
#29 repeating a failed logic makes it more foolish
#33 again, what 400 children prisoners?

Off to work for a living.

#21
Not one link provides data pertinent to this discussion.

If you commit a terrorist act , or are suspected of a terrorist act, and the Israeli catch you- the Israeli will lock you up.
If you don't want to go to jail, stay out of trouble.

Why should the 'bar' for terrorism be any different from other crimes? Laws exist to maintain civility- if you violate a law- you face punishment for the crime- whether its stealing a car, DUI, or terrorism.

Why on earth, please explain to me, should the Israeli NOT lock up those who commit acts of violence? Laws exist and must be followed, if not, chaos would soon follow. If you don't like Israel's rules- then don't break them.

What is the real truth about the Palestinaian-Israeli conflict? The Israeli state has outlived it's usefulness to us and the rug will simply be pulled from under it.

And that is the only thing the Israelis should fear, not Palestinians or Hezbollah. We in the West are simply bored with their antics and they can kid themselves on all they like with their Aryan-like supremacy theories of a chosen people but they are a third world country just like any other with a failing economy and now push has come to shove they will be treated like any other third world country. They could always try nuking us as they threatened to do to Cairo in 1973 rumour has it but I don't think we have much to worry about from them. As I say, we are all bored with this tragi-comedy show, time it was axed as I simply can't see them getting their ratings up.

PS
Since the link will not be posted in reference to the 400 'children'- because there is no such link-

If you think 16, 17, and 18 year old boys are children, then yes, Israel has children in jail.

Do you think the suicide bombers, under the age of 19, are children? Or are they terrorists?

Remember these videos training the kids to be suicide bombers?

PA Indoctrination of Children to Seek Heroic Death for Allah - Shahada.

www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part1.html

Should these little darlings be in jail, or should they be free and returned to their teachers?

Carolyn1 -- They are relevant to the sub discussion that was going on.

You ask, "Should these little darlings be in jail, or should they be free and returned to their teachers?"

They should never have been put into the situation in the first place. However, as I have often posted, if you really want impoverished oppressed people to stop suicide attacks, sell them Apache helicopters and F15's real cheap: like the US/'uk' did to Turkey (Ta, Clinton, just what Europe needs!) to allow them to bomb the hell out of the Kurds who were wanting self-determination (heaven forbid!) in an oil rich land.

I read that when the Christians brutally massacred the Muslims and Jews of Jerusalem, the Muslims fought them off and gave the Jews money to rebuild synagogues. I wish such largesse was witnessed nowadays.

As Guga (I think) said once, the Israeli Get out of Jail free Card has expired.

How about the good people of Woods Hole MA allowing the creation of a Zionist state in their area, funded, say by Russia?

Notice that post 6 has been deleted, strange that.

All someone does in compare Israel's actions with Germany 1930's and the post is deleted. Strange when you consider that people can post anything they like about Muslims.

Finnking:
Digging at the grave, tells little about the dead, but tells more about the person who is doing the digging.
Digging only creates more ripped up piles of dirt and solves nothing except to make more holes into which the dead will be buried.

PS. i have nothing good to say of clinton.

That was Col. Blimp's post?
I agree- strange that it was deleted.

#26 Dragonhead

"March 31st 1977 Dutch Newspaper Trouw published an interview with PLO Executive Committee Member Zahir Muhsein."

The only references to this I can find are indirect quotes. Neither the CIA, FBI or the archives at Trouw itself have any evidence of it.
Can you provide evidence of the above?? In the original dutch? or at least a verified translation. If not you have only hearsay evidence about something a man long dead may or may not have said. Please remember the adage that just because you repeat some often enough does not neccessarily make it true. Facts are all we should be interested in.

"Arafat himself made a very definitive and un-equivocal statement along these lines as late as 1993."

Again you have proof??????????? or is this more hearsay.

"In fact on the same day that Arafat signed the Declaration of Principles on the Whitehouse lawn in 1993, he explained his actions on Jordan TV. Here's what he said: "Since we cannot defeat Israel in War, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there. and we use it as a Springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab Nations to join us for the final blow against Israel".

Again proof??

So far you you have spewed out 20 odd lines of hearsay and not one bit of verifiable proof, which is a handy thing, especially if you want people to believe you.

BTW The PLO were aligned with fatah and had nothing to do with hamas then or now. That simple FACT makes your 2 lines of capitalised shouting at the end a total waste of effort.

#44 Finnking

You must remember that for many on the right freedom of speech is a bit like democracy, open to their interpretation.

Finnking "How about the good people of Woods Hole MA allowing the creation of a Zionist state in their area, funded, say by Russia?"

We've only got 2 sq miles with about 1,000 people- and a hole bunch of water around us. Global warming and hurricanes are a threat- and we wouldn't want Israel to be washed away.
However, where I lived and owned a business previously we had a very active program of relocating Jews out of Russian h#ll. I gave a substantial amount of money to the effort and jobs to some. One person in particular was an engineer and eventually was able to teach at a college after she mastered her english.
If I had time I'd check the statistics, but I imagine we brought over 1,000 a year to my area - which was the North Shore of Boston; specifically Swampscott (very Jewish) and Marblehead (Very WASP), but the towns worked together on this issue.

#41 Carolyn

Nice unbiased link to an Israeli propaganda site

#41 NOT

#28 Dragonhead

Please find below the accept definition of democracy. As you can see there is nothing that allows distinguishing against any group of people.

Noun
* S: (n) democracy (the political orientation of those who favor government by the people or by their elected representatives)
* S: (n) democracy, republic, commonwealth (a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them)
* S: (n) majority rule, democracy (the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group)

What you or anyone else outside of the "body of citizens" who are voting, thinks of those who are elected is neither here nor there in terms of a democratic election.
Ranting aloud on these boards obviously makes you feel good about yourself, but it does nothing to further your arguments, or help with your level of comprehesion.
Do you have a mental condition that makes you act in this manner, are you bi-polar or suffer from ADD or something similar perhaps?? Maybe with living in China you do not get access to the modern drugs that can help alleviate the symptoms of whichever debilitating condition you have.

This from TSW #42
" There are some 9,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails charged with or convicted of security offences, which range from violent acts against the Israeli Defense Forces to anti-Israeli political activities. This figure includes some 400 children and over 100 women"

DID YOU READ THE PART THAT SAYS THEY COMMITED VIOLENT ACTS, WHICH IS HOW THEY ENDED UP IN PRISON?
VIOLENCE= CRIME= JAIL

Then you foolishly repeat yourself?
I would hope that the 400 Palestinian children held by Israel will be released as a goodwill gesture.

It's the truly stupid remarks like this, empty caustic remarks that are said only to start the fire and fan the flames, that frustrate those who are trying to make peace.

"...Hamas handed over the list to Israeli officials yesterday, which reportedly includes anything from 350 to 1,000 names". So, Hamas confirms what has been suspected all along, i.e., the value of a Palistinain lies somewhere between .0028 and .001 of a Jew.

45. Carolyn 1

So you agree with Chairman Mao? "Dig a big hole and bury the past."?

Good. Then we can dispense with this ridiculous notion of the 'promised land'.

Woods Hole is too small to keep all the Jews? Ah. Shame.

Oh, I know! The jews can simply indulge in a bit of expansionist foreign policy, maybe take over that 'WASP' area you were speaking of. You know, kick them out of their houses, troops on the streets, check points and a big bloody wall! That'll do it! And, here's the great bit, when the 'wasps' start getting upset the Wood Hole Jews can scream "Terrorsts!".

Yeah, we're on to something there!

#35 Carolyn

"#25 obviously you ignore the terms, or can you not read?"

"The Palestinians do have the right to exist and are recognized; it is the actions of their government that prevent a quality of life."
So why are there 65 outstanding UN resolutions against Israel for there behavior towards the palestinians....

"The Palestinians themselves deny themselves prosperity- it is not Israel who has put them in that state of decline. If they are not happy with the circumstances they find themselves in they need only to elect a new government."
As I said in my origianal post, they elected the government of there choosing, are you denying the Palestinians the right to SELF determination.

A peace for both countries and a sovereign prosperous Palestinian state is attainable with only a few words: " Israel has the right to exist."

So if they say these words everything will suddenly be alright. Israel will abandon all it settlements and move back to the 1967 boundaries??? Is that what you are saying???

#57 Carolyn

Over here in the land of the free it is a holiday today. Even for the Scotsman. I see your still toiling away in wage slavery in the land of the not so free.

I'm not even sure this would make sense to you.

"Haha. I shall always here-to insert when I am trying to be funny. Haha."

TSW... that is wrong.. and a lie..As long as Hamas does not recognize Israel they will not have peace.
Israel has made the gestures for peace..Hamas has not. In their charter it says that they will destroy Israel.
There would have been a state for Palestinians in 1946 if the Arabs had agreed to it. Instead they atttacked Israel on 3 sides.
I do not want to go thru all this again...instead go back to the archives and read the posts.
There are lessons there from both sides.

I will blame my not getting work done on you. I think this sounds like a plan that could work for me.

#58
Although I do live here, to a religious person, Woods Hole, etc is not the birthplace of their savior!
Haha

If you want to put use to a historical shovel, The English were the ones who offered the Jewish people their promised land.

Yes, I do believe the time has come to stop pouring acid into wounds and let a healing start. It can't be done until people speak Entire truths, stop Parsing information to meet their agenda, and are willing to be honest.

The repeated remark about the so called 'children' needing to be released is a good example. Israel is damned tired of it.

Carolyn1

May I ask what drew you to the Hootsman web site? Family connections?

#60 Djookers
I stand on my original statements to you #20 and #35 Soon, The palestinians need only to choose which side of the wall they choose to live on.

Ah, freedom of speech. One of my favorites.
Freedom is not free.
It is fought for.
Not easily gained or sustained, but easily lost.
WHich is why I live here in the land of cowboy free range

I'm considering working....

Hootsman?

Djookers...Palestinans are kept in their predicament by their own people. They are being used. Their money was stolen by their leaders. Ask Mrs Arafat to return it so that his people could have a better life...all those billions the refuggess never saw.
No one is denying the right to self government..they elected a terrorist organization to lead them, does not mean Israel has to deal with them without being recognized.

Djookers, since when is Israel REQUIRED TO GIVE BACK LAND. They have done so already. When land is won in battles...to the victor go the spoils...It just seems that the only ones who HAVE to reurn it are the Israelis.
I don't think that is going to happen. They have already given back the Gaza Strip, and many settlements in the West Bank. but they won't abandon that. Both places could have been the Palestinian state...but they thought war was better.
We all know ehy...they do not want a non-muslim state in the Middle East. And for those of you who still think Israel stole it...you are wrong again. A large portion of the Ottoman Empaire was BOUGHT by early zionists.
Just go back and read it. Ther4e is too much to rewrite about it. But it is here.

66. Carolyn 1

Local name for the Scotsman

#68 thatscottishwoman

Yea, if we keep dredging up the past we get to the 1940's and Israel didn't exist. Then we get to examine how the people that lived in palastine were robbed of there land by a bunch of terrorists.

#70
precisely.

(precisely sounds so american.)

71. Carolyn 1

I don't quite follow you. What's the company?

Sounds interesting. Why no Finns?

#67 Lynne

Lots of claims there.. no proof.

Official sites only please

#65 Carolyn

The minute you curtail one persons freedom of speech you have lost that freedom for everyone, thats how easy it is to throw away.

Carolyn 1

2 Where does Pelosi come into this?

63 The birthplace of whose savior? The Jewish Messiah has not yet been born - or did I miss a recent news flash?

Carolyn 1: ""I am told that we can win the war with that pen of yours."

So you DO work for the White House Office of Global Communications?

Sorry I have been gone so long, been answering questions from the Dept. of Fatherland Security about why I called Bush a "Nazi." (Just Kidding)

#67 Lynne

"Djookers...Palestinans are kept in their predicament by their own people. They are being used. Their money was stolen by their leader"

So you are saying Israel never withheld millions in collected tax from the palestinians??

"No one is denying the right to self government..they elected a terrorist organization to lead them, does not mean Israel has to deal with them without being recognized."

Nor does it give them the right to deliberately undermine them.

"When land is won in battles...to the victor go the spoils..."

So why did we give the Germans back Germany

"A large portion of the Ottoman Empaire was BOUGHT by early zionists.
Just go back and read it. Ther4e is too much to rewrite about it. But it is here."

As I said, you make the claim, you provide the proof

#77
yup.

I am breaking out of the joint.
I am twenty feet from being a free wman.

Djookers, explain to janus what a joke is. Haha

Rainbird: it depends on what is is

Belle esprit.

79 Rainbird

Hello. Read some of your posts in the past. Go easy on Carolyn 1,she may be tired. She and some of her goons were going at a few posters here the other nite, seems they got together offsite and nowshe insits they have some kind of anarchist conspiracy going, aginst who I dont know

81 Carolyn 1

Which of those 2 was the joke? seems near about everything you write is a joke or just absurd, so hard to tell

#81

You do your own explaining

86 thatscottishwoman

You didn't have to name yourself, I ws going to let the names lay by. There's too dang much time wasted on their foolishness already

#84
Janus
When I type the words Haha-
that means it is a joke:
sorry if this concept goes over your head

About Pelosi: Pelosi, who is head of the US house went to Damascus and delivered a meesage from Israel that Israel never said, never gave to pelosi or asked for one to be delivered.

#79
Rainbird
I am fanatical about rights to privacy. I believe it is my choice what to say and to whom, and not any business of a peeping government. That is all I was saying that night but you guys went self-exploding. The reaction was actually amusing. Sorta makes a person wonder what someone is hiding if they react that crazy. The internet is not regulated and it is spied on. Not a good thing. And not a joke.

Ideleted because my response at 71 and 74 was directed to Finnking, it was personal, and I asked for it to be deleted. Same for my comment to Djookers at the post 57.
Sorry- no right wing conspiracy.

17. thatscottishwoman

The link doesn't work.

#82, thatscottishwoman: Nope no salt mines (wish it were so). Got to spend the week-end with the in-laws, who "High Speed Connection" is something just short of DIAL-UP speed. I get too frustrated on that computer, and want to throw it out of a window.

"HaHa." There is a unique and all brand new way of covering an implied threat, when you want to shut someone up who is saying things you have no reply to (for those who are interested).

When you're getting pounded with facts and history that you don't know, you just accuse the other person of being a traitor who might be of interest to the American Gestapo, and then go "HaHa."

There, you all learned something new today : )

TSW, ONly the first paragraph of that last post was for you, the rest of the post was just for "general consumption."

I have noticed quite a few deleted posts spread out across several topics here lately.

WHAT IS UP WITH THAT?

Someone here finally figure out the easiest way to quash dissent was just to delete posts? What ever happened to the FREAK who was trolling under multiple screennames and posting all the virulent anti-gay stuff? Did they find out who he was and ban hi for life? I missed a few days, and won't have much time to catch up today (unfortunately)...

32. Reading Public, Wisc/USA/Scotland

"#11 Bill of England where do you get your information that Palestinian Weaponry? Quote:"when Palestine has nuclear capability, they'll take 1000 Israelis for every Palestinian." and you feel Iran should get nuclear capability?"

I didn't say that either Palestine or Iran has or should have nuclear capability but, with the proliferation that is going on, they will do one day.

37. Carolyn 1

"Why on earth, please explain to me, should the Israeli NOT lock up those who commit acts of violence? Laws exist and must be followed, if not, chaos would soon follow. If you don't like Israel's rules- then don't break them."

If you really believe that those who commit acts of violence should be locked up, then Israel should b turned into a prison.

Anyone here remember the stink a few years ago when the Israelis were going to tattoo I.D. numbers on the arms of the Palestinians, but decided to scrap the plan when some of the older Jewish people pointed out this was the same thing the Nazi's had done to Jews in Germany?

It must be NICE to be an Israeli, and just ignore one U.N. Resolution after another, gather your "enemies" in concentrated ghettos, deny them rights as citizens, bulldoze their homes and communities, and then when(if) anyone complains, you just call them an "Anti-Semite" shout out "We well never Forget" and then keep right on doing what you were doing. Just because they never forgot, that doesn't make it right when they do it to other people...

89 Carolyn 1

Don't sass me missy. Your so-called joke doesn't make sense even as a joke. Perhaps that is over your head.

Being a Jew, I see that there are some myths and lies, that are repeated so often, it then is taken for fact. It is not fact. The history of the Middle Eastern conflict has been manipulated by Arabs and the international left to make the agressors look like the victims, and the victims the aggressors. In particular, the PLO and Hamas terrorists were recast by Arab and leftwing propaganda as "freedom fighters" struggling for national self-determination for the "Palestinian People" against the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews.

Israel camre to occupy the Gaza Strip at the end of the 6 Day War because Egyptian forces were poised to launch attacks from Gaza into Israel. It retained sovereignty over the area because Arab leadership unanimously rejected Israel's offers to return conquered territories in exchange for peace, and because every Arab state had rejected UN resolutions 242 and 338, calling for peace negotiations and the establishment of recognized borders for ALL states in the region. Israel retained control of the Gaza Strip after Ceding all of the Sinai Peninsula in its peace treaty with Egypt in 1979, because Anwar es-Sadat did not want sovereignty over more than one million Palestinians in the Strip..
When Arafat rose to power after the Oslo Accords (1994), the Gaza Strip became the source of relentless terror attacks against Israeli civilians. In 1996, to prevent tese terrorist attacks Israel built a fence around the entire Strip, with guarded crossingpoints. This fence successfully prevented terror attacks into pre-67 Israel.With Arafats death in 2004, and the rise of Hamas to leadership in the stip, rocket attacks proliferated, with sometimes as many as 80 a day, targeting civilian sites in Israel communities in and near the Strip.

When it became clear to Sharon that the Palestinian Authority was unwilling or unable to enforce the peace to which Arafat had committed the Palestinians at Oslo, Sh

89 Carolyn 1

Where did hear that foolishness about Pelosi? From the samefolk whining about her trip and forgetting about Republicans going a couple weeks afore?

97. thatscottishwoman

Still doesn't work, I get the same message:

ODS - Sédoc

Official Documents System
of the United Nations

There is an end-user problem. If you have reached this site from a web link,
- Through your internet options, adjust your privacy settings to allow cookies or
- Check your security settings and make sure this site has not been blocked or
- You are probably using a very slow link that may not work well with this application.
Otherwise you have reached this site through unauthorized means.

103. thatscottishwoman

That one worked thanks. I have little time right now but I've bookmarked it.

continued...and Jordan. Land for peace.

Rather than engaging in negotiations that would lead to peace with Israel, Hamas promptly declared the withdrawal a military victory, emphasizing the success of terrorism in defeating Israel, and promised more attacks from the Gaza Strip and from the West Bank... in order to liberate the remainder of 'occupied Palestine", namely Israel.

In Jan. 2006 Palestinians in Gaza voted into office the Hamas terrorist group, whose charter identifies the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic state "from the river to the sea" as its goal. Now the reins of power are in the hands of a terrorist group whose founding document called for the obliteration of Israel and the genocide of the world's Jews.

Israel had voted for peace. The Palestinians voted for terrorism.

Rather than build a nation on the land that had been given to them, Hamas and other terrorist gangs operating in the Gaza Strip, began an almost daily barrage of Qassam rockets, katyushas and mortars, into Israeli cities and farming communities..Along with that was the endless rhetoric of anniliation. With the help of Syria and iran, Hamas began wholesale smuggling into Gaza of tons of weaponry, ammunition, explosives, ground to ground, and ground to air missiles, anti-aircraft shoulder-held missiles and anti-tank weapons.

Remember...all these attacks took place when there were no longer any Jews in Gaza.

#2 Carolyn 1

"Its absurd and not worth the ink to print the story."

I believe the poiunt of the request is to be absurd. I am sure there is no delusions that Israel will agree to the request, but I believe it adequately highlights the disparate number of Palestinians held in comparison to Israelis. Not only that, it makes a statement about the level of coverage 1000 captured Palestinians recieve (or rather do not recieve) in comparison to each Israeli.

While the conflict is devastating to both sides, Israel has more fire power, more resources, and has recieved the lion's share of the press. There is righ (and wrong) on both sides of this conflict.

Continued

"Occupation" is not the issue that promotes the attacks from Hamas. There was no Israeli occupation of Gaza when these attacks..the rockets into Israel and the terrorist invasion via the tunnel, attacking Israel from within..killing soldiers, and kidnapping one.

The UN surprisingly now validated Israel's contention that its withdrawal completely complied with the requirements of UN Resolution 425...Even then Hezbollah forces kidnapped, tortured, and killed several Israeli soldiers.

4 years later, another UN Resolution...1559...was passed on Sept 3, 2004, which called upon Hezbollah to disarm. Since Hezbolla's self proclaimed raison d-etre was to drive IsraelOut of Lebanon. By the time of the Resolution, Israel had been out of Lebanon for more than 4 years, and there was no need for Hezbollah to bear arms.

#107 Janus

There were at least 3 Republicans who went over prior to Pelosi: Virginia Republican Frank Wolf, Pennsylvania Republican Joe Pitts and Alabama Republican Robert Aderholt.

Evidently what is good for the gander is not necessarily good for the goose - at least in the Republican view.

continued...I could go on but you all know how that came out.
Just read what's in the archives. And remember that just because you say it doesn't make it true..

But remember also Hezbollah is a creation of Iran, a fundamentalist terrorist state.

Rainbird...it never happened...just another vicious myth...and you still tell it.

Lynne #106, 113: "Being a Jew," you wouldn't be the LEAST bit biased.

And naturally, you do NOT have an agenda supporting Israel, and destroying or destabilizing the Arab/Muslim/Persian nations around it.

And of Course, all of World History started after 1945...

"I see that there are some myths and lies..."

Which is TOTALLY different from mis-information, DIS-Information and/or pro-Zionist propaganda...

I LIKE you, you are funny...

Bikwoman..it was written that there was 1 Republican, who very few knew.

Secondly, she may have committed a felony. She went there against the wishes of the White House, with her own agenda, not the President's. She managed to foul up the Israeli message that they never gave her. SHE IS NOT A DIPLOMAT, she is not the President, but she is on a power trip.

Rainbird, to go all the way back...go into the archives...I have written it before...there is plenty of antisemitism on the threads in Middle East...Palestine ..you can read for yourself.

Set aside YOUR views for a moment, and open YOUR mind up, the jews have always been in Israel..except when exiled.

Rainbird..EVERY, and I repeat EVERY war was started by the Muslims. The problem is that Israel won, all of them and in doing so made enemies.
Face it, it is a tiny country surrounded by countries that want to wipe it off the map..
the refugee problem was caused by the Arabs, and there are many Arabs living in Israel today and they manage to get along.

bikwoman...more garbage..print the article...I would like to see the proof.

#123 Lynne

Every... and you repeat... every war was started by the Muslims? You sould like Mel Gibson's mirrir twins. (You are probably aware that he believes that everey... and he repeated... every war was started by the jews.)

You are both wrong. And you both sound like bigots.

#124 Lynne

Here ya go. Enjoy.

http://www.schillerinstitute.org/strategic/gtrdm2_0302.html

Lynne #121: "Set aside YOUR views for a moment, and open YOUR mind up, the jews have always been in Israel..except when exiled."

Um....then what was that whole Diaspora thingy, sweetie?

As a matter of fact, I will grant you that there always HAVE been Jews in Israel...AFTER they immigrated out of the Desert under the leadership of Moses into lands that belonged to Egypt and Mesopatamia about 5,000 years ago. However, they have NOT always been the "rulers" of that piece of land.
During the Ottoman Empire (you kow, when the Muslims Controlled that piece of dirt), there were Jews, Christians AND Muslims living there, and the Jews were equals who could even hold positions of Office. But it was Ottoman Controlled, and Jews were merely residents, who fared MUCH better than do the Palestinians under Jewish rule.
It is not my "views" you want me to set aside, it is recorded history. Sorry, I have actually studied Ancient History, and this "revisionist" view that you present ain't gonna fly.
But I still LIKE you, because you are VERY funny...

Bedtime.
Night all.

Lynne #118: "Rainbird...it never happened...just another vicious myth...and you still tell it."

Since it is obvious that you are a Right Wing Militant Nationalist, I assume you have no more of an UNIMPEACHABLE SOURCE than FAUX News. If you read it on FAUX News, would you still call it a "vicious myth?"

Here you go:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,47806,00.html

Lynne, it is not worth your breath to argue with these bigots.
Their anti-semitism bigotry is so apparent, if they lived and spoke like this in the United States, they would be dismissed from jobs, and possibly in jail. They are a disgrace to humanity. If Bikewoman spoke like this in school she would be removed from her position.

Long after the palestians, hamas, hezbollah, al queda, etc, etc have slaughtered each other, the Jews will still be in Israel, because they will stand united as one: always. Always.

Lynne, Let the bigots pat each other on the back and then rip each other apart. They do it so well.

129. Rainbird, Illinois/USA

I swear you & Bikewoman are nothing but troublemakers.

#131 1980's & Reagan

Gee, wonder why you don't post under your real id?

132. Bikewoman

You mean Bikewoman is what's on your driver's licence? What an unfortunate name you have then.

#130 Carolyn 1

You know, if you cannot take a variegated view and see good and bad on both sides there is a real problem. If you have to dismiss anything negative as harmful to your view, that view could not be very robust. It wouldn't hurt you once in a while to step away from your black and white thinking and acknowledge that BOTH sides of a conflict have right and wrong in what they are pursuing.

It is inappropriate to conflate religion with the actions of a nation state and demand that that nation's actions be given the protections and freedoms guaranteed religion. It practically guarantees that power will be abused.

By the way, nothing I have said would "get me fired" at the University. Contrary to what you believe, we are still allowed to speak the truth there and if others do not agree, they still respect intellectual freedom. I find it odd that you would be such a fan of censorship after the troubles you have faced in getting your writing published.

Rainbird #102

"It must be NICE to be an Israeli, and just ignore one U.N. Resolution after another, gather your "enemies" in concentrated ghettos, deny them rights as citizens, bulldoze their homes and communities"

It must be great to be a palestinian where you can carry out suicide bombings and rarely if ever get criticised by the UN or Red Cross. When the Israelis try to defend themselves you plead oppression and send in another wave of rockets and suicide bombings. What fun.

Carolyn 1: Thank you so much for proving the point I made back at post #102.

People like you are SOOOO predictable.

I can not believe what I am reading from some of you people.

1) Isreal or Canaan was established thousands of years before Mohammad the murderer and molester did his murderous trek across the middle east. You really think an Arab would name a place Bethlehem or Jerusalum?

2) Palistinians are Jordanians as prior to 1948, Jordan controlled the area that Isreal is located on.

3) In 1948, the "refugees" or so called palistinians were evacuated by the arab nations to protect them from being killed in the war ARABS started and LOST...HAHHAAHHA.

4) In the 6 day war, ARABS LOST again and now they whine that the ones they sort to kill took over land they owned...I say too damn bad.

5) Never in history has a victorious nation given back land they took when an agressor attacked.

6) If Islam was a "religion of peace" then show it, give the soldier back in good faith.

7) Remember, Jews and those that are called "non believers in "allah"" are considered the enemy. Therefore, the Koran states that you can NOT have peace with an enemy, a truce yes, but not peace. Additionally, a truce will only be given so long as it is convienant to the muslum.

8) See the land in Gaza given back only to have Isreal fight off missles and this soldier being taken.

9) Islam is a Facist totaliterian doctorate. It has no value system such as Christianity or Judism, though it steals from both.

10) 1000 palistians is worth one Isreali....Why, they will kill themselves anyway.

Am I a racist..Yes ,, I do not want to live under a cresent moon or look at some vile trash called the Koran.

BTW Carolyn 1, How does posting the truth, being accused of spreading "vicious lies," and then PROVING that what I posted was, in fact the truth...How does ANY of that make me a "bigot?"

You know, for an American, you seem to have little or no use for the First Amendment. First, it was veiled threats about watching out for the Department of Homeland Security, and now threats about how I should be fired.

I have come to the conclusion that You are actually Chinese Communist, and that your TRUE goal in posting here is to convince our UK neighbors that ALL Americans are Right Wing Militant Nationalists. You are such a caricature of the Right Wing Militant "Redneck," that you can't POSSIBLY be a real person...

Grimwolf #137

"8) See the land in Gaza given back only to have Isreal fight off missles and this soldier being taken."

Grimwolf, what you fail to understand is that the Israelis are still responsible for Gaza despite the fact they pulled out and despite the fact that the palestinians elected their own government and despite the fact that the palestinians called a ceasefire. Its all Israels fault. No. Seriously it is.

*tries to stop laughing*

The above is the nonsense you will get in response
to your post. While respecting a few of the pro-palestinian posters here the rest are just beyond reason and help.

Oh, I remember...When the Right Wing can't support their position based on the facts, the next thing they do is start name-calling.

LOL...THAT is why I am a "Bigot," because Carolyn and Lynne have been proven wrong, and don't have anything left to say.

137. Grimwolf, US

That's because Bikewoman & Rainbird are reading revisionist history and have a radical left wing extremist’s agenda that emboldens our enemy.

#140 Rainbird

Yep - name-calling is pretty much the verbal eqwuivalent to throwing in the towel. It tells the world that you have nothing left of substance to say.

Then again, how can you even debate with somoene who proudly proclaims that he is a racist as though that were a good thing - ala Grimwolf at 137.

140. Rainbird, Illinois/USA

No, left wingers do that, see Bikewoman attacking me because she does not like my ID in comment #132.

142. Bikewoman

Left wing radicals like Rainbird calling Bush a Nazi is OK with you......

Carolyn 1...Since oct or Nov...I have been proving these points and they still spout tripe. You are absolutely right...In the US they would never get away with it, especially teaching classes.

Rainbird I haven't been proven wrong, and neither has Carolyn 1..EVERYTHING I said is true...and fact.

#143, 1980's & Reagan: No, seeing YOU do that in #141. Thanks for proving my point.

Rainbird, you are a bigot for other reasons.

142. Bikewoman

Your throwing in the towel comment is soooo childish, I bet you feel stupid for clicking the "post" button now. No need to respond, we know.

#144

Which no one did here - you are really grasping at straws. Looks like you struck a nerve, Rainbord. The kind of nerve that gets struck by an unwanted truth...

#145 Lynne: "1..EVERYTHING I said is true...and fact."

Um...except that it was a "vicious lie" that the Israelis were going around writing ID numbers on the arms of palestinians, and were going to tattoo them, JUST like the Nazi's did to the Jews...

On THAT, you were wrong, and even FAUX NEWS says so.

Quite a bit of the revisionist History you posted is ALSO wrong, but I don't have time to teach you the entire history of the middle east tonight.

Here's a good place for you to start your education:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan#Early_Development_of_...

#148 1980's

Aaaw - you are so cute when you are desperate.

Rainbird...they tatooed no one.. they printed a number on detainees. Your exaggeration is why people believe nonsense.

Lynne #147: Um...Do I know you in real life? Are you a clairvoyant? Since we do not know each other, want to clue me in to these "other reasons" of yours? Do you hold imaginary conversations with your own pet "Rainbird" at home?

Like I said, I LIKE you, and you are getting funnier and funnier with every post...

ISRAEL AND JERUSALEM FACTS
>
> 1. ISRAEL BECAME A STATE IN 1312 B.C., TWO MILLENNIA BEFORE ISLAM;
>
> 2. ARAB REFUGEES FROM ISRAEL BEGAN CALLING THEMSELVES "PALESTINIANS" IN 1967, TWO DECADES AFTER (MODERN) ISRAELI STATEHOOD;
>
> 3. AFTER CONQUERING THE LAND IN 1272 B.C., JEWS RULED IT FOR A THOUSAND YEARS AND MAINTAINED A CONTINUOUS PRESENCE THERE FOR 3,300 YEARS;
>
> 4. THE ONLY ARAB RULE FOLLOWING CONQUEST IN 633 B.C. LASTED JUST 22 YEARS;
>
> 5. FOR OVER 3,300 YEARS, JERUSALEM WAS THE JEWISH CAPITAL. IT WAS NEVER THE CAPITAL OF ANY ARAB OR MUSLIM ENTITY. EVEN UNDER JORDANIAN RULE, (EAST) JERUSALEM WAS NOT MADE THE CAPITAL, AND NO ARAB LEADER CAME TO VISIT IT;
>
> 6. JERUSALEM IS MENTIONED OVER 700 TIMES IN THE BIBLE, BUT NOT ONCE IS IT MENTIONED IN THE QUR'AN;
>
> 7. KING DAVID FOUNDED JERUSALEM; MUHAMMAD NEVER SET FOOT IN IT;
>
> 8. JEWS PRAY FACING JERUSALEM; MUSLIMS FACE MECCA. IF THEY ARE
> BETWEEN THE TWO CITIES, MUSLIMS PRAY FACING MECCA, WITH THEIR
> BACKS TO JERUSALEM;
>
> 9. IN 1948, ARAB LEADERS URGED THEIR PEOPLE TO LEAVE, PROMISING TO CLEANSE THE LAND OF JEWISH PRESENCE. 68% OF THEM FLED WITHOUT EVER SETTING EYES ON AN ISRAELI SOLDIER;
>
> 10. VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE JEWISH POPULATION OF MUSLIM COUNTRIES HAD TO FLEE AS THE RESULT OF VIOLENCE AND POGROMS;
>
> 11. SOME 630,000 ARABS LEFT ISRAEL IN 1948, WHILE CLOSE TO A MILLION JEWS WERE FORCED TO LEAVE THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES;
>
> 12. IN SPITE OF THE VAST TERRITORIES AT THEIR DISPOSAL, ARAB REFUGEES WERE DELIBERATELY PREVENTED FROM ASSIMILATING INTO THEIR HOST COUNTRIES. OF 100 MILLION REFUGEES FOLLOWING WORLD WAR 2, THEY ARE THE ONLY GROUP TO HAVE NEVER INTEGRATED WITH THEIR CO-RELIGIONISTS. MOST OF THE JEWISH REFUGEES FROM EUROPE AND ARAB LANDS WERE SETTLED IN

Lynne #152: Perhaps you had better put your tin-foil hat back on, then go back and re-read post #102. While you are there, please cut and paste the part of the post where I said they actually DID tattoo anyone.

Thanks in advance for either posting your retraction, or supplying the cut and paste which proves you are not a liar...

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=492232007

77. Boyce, Edinburgh

131. Rainbird, Illinois/USA / BUSH IS A NAZI!

Lyne #154

Good to see you still arguing the case. Its far too fashionable these days to condemn israel and paint "palestinians" as innocent little victims. Even those pro-palestinians on this board who I DO respect will not apportion any responsibility to the palestinians.

These are the videos training the 'children' to be suicide bombers

PA Indoctrination of Children to Seek Heroic Death for Allah - Shahada.

www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part1.html

Isreal has about 350 of these little darlings in jail. Rainbird, Thatscottishwoman,janus, bikewoman and bill all seem to think these children should be released.
See comment at #13
I have asked why these children who commited violent crimes should be released but no one has answered.

Would any of you take these children perhaps as student exchange programs, or work release programs? Any takers? Can Israel can release them in Edinburg?

Lynne #154: Your version of History is so out of Whack and full of holes, you might as well have just made something up from scratch.

You make no mention of the various other nations which controlled this piece of desert, no mention of the Ottoman Empire, The Balfour Declaration, the fact that priot to 1948, there WAS no State of Israel, at least Grimwulf knew that Israel was once a part of Canaan (although he failed to mention that the Canaanites are actually the Modern Lebonese).

PLEASE...EDUCATE YOURSELF!

Here is another step for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

After that, you can learn about the Ottoman Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire

Keep in mind, this is merely a shortcut to get you up to speed, since the amount of time it would take to teach you the entire history of the Middle East would take several semesters of actual coursework (which I time I have no desire to spend educating you on things you could have discovered for yourself).

156: Nice use of Cut and paste out of context to distort and prove a specious point. Even better that everyone can follow the link you provided to see what you have done.

If you keep making yourself look xxxxxx, what am I supposed to do?

#157 Oliver F

"Even those pro-palestinians on this board who I DO respect will not apportion any responsibility to the palestinians."

Please read the posts above - this is simply not true.

At 134 I said "BOTH sides of a conflict have right and wrong in what they are pursuing"

at 114 i said "There is righ (and wrong) on both sides of this conflict."

If you want to put use to a historical shovel, The English were the ones who offered the Jewish people their promised land.

Yes, I do believe the time has come to stop pouring acid into wounds and let a healing start. It can't be done until people speak Entire truths, stop Parsing information to meet their agenda, and are willing to be honest.

The repeated remark about the so called 'children' needing to be released is a good example. Israel is damned tired of it.

Okay, well...

Lynne has been proven to be a liar.

Grimwulf AND Lynne have proven themselves historical revisionists.

Carolyn 1 (as usual) contributed almost nothing of value except to stir the pot.

I think I can go find more productive things to do with my evening, now that the Right Wing Militant Nationalists have shown their true colors and admitted defeat.

As TSW likes to say: Nitol!

#163 rainbird

Night - later!

149. Bikewoman

http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=485142007

533. Bikewoman A direct insinuation that the Bush administration is very similar to the Nazis. Blatantly tip toeing around saying Bush is a Nazi.

730. Wally “I will try hard not to call you a NAZI. But I am worried about President Bush being a Next-Generation NAZI.”

There must be 100’s of quotes of your liberal buddies calling Bush and right posters Nazis

160. Rainbird, Illinois/USA

Nice attempt, please see comment 165 also and try to convince your lemming liberal readers that link is false also.

thatscottishwoman: "One point almost every poster agreed on was that if Israel had agreed to negotiate the Arab League peace plan when it was first mooted in 2002 we would most probably not now be discussing the issue of a Hamas led government nor indeed would we have been discussing the war on Lebanon last year."

Hah! Your memory is playing tricks on you. There was no such agreement among posters here.

There also was no "war on Lebanon" last year. There was a war between Israel and Hizbullah, and at least as much "on Israel" as "on Lebanon".

In any case, you originally said something along the lines of what you wrote above, and I replied that if the Arab League had made a more reasonable offer -- one that Israel could agree to -- the Israeli government also would have looked different, and yes, presumably there would have been peace, not a war in Lebanon and Israel last year.

The phase "if Israel had agreed to negotiate" is absurd. You should have written "if the Arab League had agreed to negotiate the Arab League peace plan..." Sharon offered to come to Beirut, or to host the leaders of the Arab League countries in Jerusalem, to discuss the plan. The Arab League turned him down, and said that the plan was a "take it or leave it" offer, essentially a dictate from the Arab world to Israel, not open to negotiation. Likewise, this has so far been the Arab League's response to Olmert's calls for negotiation.

Finally, one can always play the "if Israel had agreed to negotiate the Arab League peace plan" game. For example, if the Palestinians had not launched the terrorist offensive of multiple suicide bombings in Feb-March 1996, Peres, not Netanyahu, would have won the subsequent election. Likewise, the victories of Begin and Shamir can be attributed to this or that example of Arab aggression or intrangisence. In the end, though, each side must be held acco

#165

"insinuation" meaning I don't say it but you wish I did. In fact, I explicitely state (that means I really say it) that I am not calling anyone a nazi.

The bigger question is why you cannot confine your arguments to the content of these threads. We could go to other threads and criticize things you... oh wait. We can't because you are posting on a newly minted troll id. You lose.

Bikewoman #161

My sincere apologies. I had forgotten you had said that.

I agree with you that there is right and wrong on both sides. My intense disdain at terrorism - by this I mean suicide bombings, indiscriminate rocket attacks - means my sympathies are often with Israel but I accept Israel has gone too far on some occasions.

#168 Bikewoman: I already know who "1980's & Reagan" is.

Do you?

Hint: this would NOT be the first time we have caught this person "trolling."

Second Hint: Almost positive this person works for the White House Office of Global Communications : )

This time, I am TRULY out of here...

#170 Rainbird

You are too right.

I have to go too - work beckons, See you tomorrow.

#169 Oliver

Thanks for going back and checking that. I don't really have more sympathy one way or another and at this point, there have been so many things done by both sides that it is hard to sort out. I empathize with the people on both sides. I think, however, that the Palestinians would use tanks and planes if they had them. The palestinian tactics are just another form of warfare - the one they have the means for. All means of war are barbaric and I wish that so many people didn't feel they needed to fall back on them.

Rainbird: "I have noticed quite a few deleted posts spread out across several topics here lately.

WHAT IS UP WITH THAT?

...What ever happened to the FREAK who was trolling under multiple screennames and posting all the virulent anti-gay stuff? Did they find out who he was and ban hi for life?"

Rainbird, do you favor the deletion of messages with virulent anti-gay stuff?

Such messages certainly violate the house rules of this site. When I see such posts, I report them as unsuitable, and if the moderators of The Scotsman agree, they get deleted. I've done this with posts I've seen that are virulently anti-gay, anti-Arab, anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli (in answer to your #102, yes, it is nice to be an Israeli), anti-Palestinian, etc., and I'll continue to do so.

This includes also messages that make obscene and baseless comparisons between either side of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the Nazis, such as your #102.

Rainbird...read your post on number #102...you are the liar.

Oliver F.. nice to see you too. How are you feeling?
I hope things are well with you.
Thanks for the encouragement. I rather wish they would go into the archives instead. I spent most of the day at the office, and rewriting all this is tedious.

But I am going to keep a stiff upper lip!!

HenryII ...I'm not just realizing this. Every once in a while I stand back...and shake my head, I can not believe that in 2007 people still feel this way!! Oh well, thak you for the encouragment too.
I guess the only way they can post garbage and tripe (nice words) is by name calling.

Grimwolf USA You nailed it!!!

#15-djookers-"cripple the DEMOCRATICALLY elected hamas government"- We should support ($$$$) terrorists groups that shout 'death to America" because ............? I can't seem to come up with a logic answer to that one. Can you? Maybe they should have taken all those $$$'s in the past, and used it for housing and schooling for the palestinian people. BTW- Did mrs. arafat ever send a thank you note to the palestinians while she's enjoying her riches in france. Or to any other countries that has sent them $$$'s?

"sit there and give up"- They're teaching their children to blow themselves and others up.If that's fighting back, then giving up sounds like a good idea to me. Maybe if they give up, they can start building schools and housing and businesses.

"exist on their own terms"- Their own terms are having children and (raped) women blow people up. I don't understand how a Palestinian would want to live on these terms!

Lynne, thank you and I was impressed with your post 154. By the way WINKPEDIA can be edited by the general Joe so to speak and it contains many falsehoods. Additionally, it is weird that a whole section has been eliminated.

The bottom line is, the orginal jews were Hebrews and were slaves of Egypt. They left/fled and setled in Canaan. This was to become what we know as Isreal. Jews/Hebrews have always been in that land even when exiled. It is my true belief that the main reason that land is contested is because the Jews have been able to do one thing that arabs have never been able to do. .....Terraform a desert to produce goods/food. One fact little known is the following: When Gaza was given back, the Isrealis left 4 million dollars in strawberry crop whcih by the way is no more now.

This one poor soldier was kidnapped, taken...and for what, defending his country against vile filth. Personnally, there is a time when you sacrifice the one for the many.....Someone in Isreal needs to grow a set as the Priminister does not have any and should retake Gaza in retaliation for this soldier. Then if they want their land back......you have a bargining chip.

Night and God bless and I DO NOT mean Allah.

I have always said they created an oasis in the middle of the desert. The Palestinians have yet to open a school, hospital roads, etc with the money Israel gave back.

I think if Hamas and Fatah want to fight it out...let them kill each other off. They think nothing of killing children in a car going to school, sending suicide bombers to kill children on a bus, in a pizza parlor, etc. How can you deal with people who love death more than life?

Good night to you, and thanks... Nite all

Re: Money donated to Palestinian government

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007...

Well it has to be said that there is a lot of hot air being blown about on this board, mostly by right wing posters whose rants all have one thing in common. A complete lack of facts or sources to back up there claims.
Oh! and citing the bible does not constitute providing verifiable evidence.

#167 Grimwolf

"In addition, these so called Palistinians (Named at or around 1967) "

I think if you check, the whole area that is now Israel was called Palestine up to and during the formation of Israel

#174 SMG

"I've done this with posts I've seen that are virulently anti-gay, ANTI-ARAB,

So you will be reporting posts 179, 183, 184 and 185

just a heads up for you

#130 Carolyn

See you still live in the land where people have freedom of speech...... as long as they are only saying things Carolyn agrees with

Guga, this business about 10,000 Palestinians being held in Israel "without trial and without legal representation" is a lie.

Of 9,301 Palestinians currently held in Israeli jails, only about 8% are "administrative detainees". (And by the way, we inherited this controversial legal category from your country.) The vast majority of the 9,301 were tried (of course with legal defense), found guilty, and are now serving out their sentences. And most others are dangerous suspects detained until the end of the legal process (i.e., awaiting trial).

I would offer to trade one prisoner for Gilad Shalit.

That prisoner would be Marwan Barghouti. Although he is a mass murderer serving five life terms plus 40 years, and would have been executed if there were any justice, his popularity among Palestinians gives him the potential to lead a Palestinian government away from fundamentalist fanaticism and to make the compromises necessary for peace. Unfortunately, Hamas would never agree to such an exchange, since Barghouti represents a serious threat to Hamas's power.

130. Carolyn 1

"Lynne, it is not worth your breath to argue with these bigots. Their anti-semitism bigotry is so apparent, if they lived and spoke like this in the United States, they would be dismissed from jobs, and possibly in jail. They are a disgrace to humanity. If Bikewoman spoke like this in school she would be removed from her position."

Carolyn, I cannot believe that you have such a low opinion of the USA. I have always believed in free speech, and every American I have ever met thinks the same. If you are seriously suggesting that people who are unjustly and offensively called anti-semitic (when they are no such thing) can be treated as you say, then there is something very sinister happening.

137. Grimwolf, US

This is one of the most anti-semitic posts I have ever read. Every single one of your ten points would be laughable if they were not biased and offensive.

139. Oliver F, UK

"Grimwolf, what you fail to understand is that the Israelis are still responsible for Gaza despite the fact they pulled out and despite the fact that the palestinians elected their own government and despite the fact that the palestinians called a ceasefire."

I see you've read the links I sent you, and now understand the situation.

154. Lynne, USA

Do you really have to put your anti-semitic rantings in block capitals?

Djookersm thanks for the heads up. When you wrote it, I had already reported 183 as unsuitable. Now I have reported 179, and your #15 (another obscene, gratuitous, inflamatory, profane, offensive comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany...) as well.

I hope that all of these will be gone soon.

185 is not anti-Arab, anti-Muslim, or anti-Palestinian. It is legitimately critical of Hamas and Fatah for their suicide bombings, massive corruption, and the misuse and squandering of aid money.

184 is more of a borderline case, and in such cases, I think it is better to err on the side of leaving the posts unreported. The "analysis" in 184, such as it is, is certainly simplistic (the Arab-Israeli conflict is fueled by Arab jealousy of Israel's success), but to me this is more stupid than vile, and doesn't quite qualify as the sort of obscene bigotry that ought to get a message removed.

I understand the phrase "vile filth" in the third paragraph to refer not to all Arabs or Palestinians, but only to terrorists trying to infiltrate into Israel. As such, the term is legitimate.

And finally, the bit about Allah -- sure, it could offend Muslims and not only Muslims. But if Grimwolf wishes to contrast "God" with "Allah", as if his/her God is not also the God of Islam, this is Grimwolf's religious view, and not given to rational argument.

But Grimwolf, please understand that Arabic-speaking Jews, Christians, Druze, and Bahais -- not only Muslims -- pray to Allah, and almost all maintain that their God is the same God as that of Islam.

Bill, england, your 101 advocates collective punishment against an entire nation -- a massive human rights violation of mind-numbing proportions. Surely you must realize that the vast majority of Israelis have never lifted a finger against Palestinians or anyone else.

Oh, one more thing:

To Israeli and other Jews and Muslims living in proximity everywhere, happy Maimouna, and may it once again become a shining example of Jewish-Muslim coexistence and mutual respect, as it once was.

To Jews in exile still celebrating Passover - Chag Sameach and next year in rebuilt Jerusalem.

To Christians, a belated Good Easter.

197. SMG, Beit Shemesh, Israel

My statement was hyperbole to counter argument going back through the thread; I don't for one minute advocate turning Israel or any other country into a mass prison for the transgressions of the state. The whole world would be a prison in short order if that were the case; some countries are like that already when you think about it.

Best wishes to all for Maimouna, Passover, Easter and Holidays depending on your persuasions!

#196 SMG

So you post at #174 should read:

"When I see such posts, I report them as unsuitable, and if the moderators of The Scotsman agree, they get deleted. I've done this with posts I've seen that are virulently anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli or in any way are negative in any regard to Israel.

Why do you misrepresent yourself??????

thatscottishwoman, cc: Reading Public,

thatscottishwoman: "The bottom line as I said earlier is that I would hope anyone would draw the line at child prisoners."

I would hope anyone would draw the line at child terrorists and other child combatants, and child victims of suicide bombers (including child suicide bombers) and other war criminals.

thatscottishwoman: "The report at #17 by the UN Special Rapporteur is the most up to date available. One can only hope that the current negotiations will see an end to child prisoners."

One can only hope it will see an end to child combatants and child victims, as well.

thatscottishwoman: "...I do not think we should be questioning the honesty of John Dugard's report."

Why not? I've seen the report, and know that it is appallingly biased and shockingly dishonest. Why would you wish to shield the UN from questions of bias and dishonesty?

thatscottishwoman: "I would hope that the 400 Palestinian children held by Israel will be released as a goodwill gesture."

Why? Of course all the rights of children should be respected even in the unfortunate cases when they must be incarcerated. For example, they should not be imprisoned together with adults. And if there are among the "400" people who committed relatively "minor" offenses (for example young stone throwers who did not actually kill anyone), it might be appropriate to release them early if there are comparable goodwill gestures from the Palestinian side.

But among the 400 are people who committed murder and attempted murder at the age of 14, 15, 16 or 17. What possible good could come from releasing such people early, and in particular, releasing them back into the custody of families who say they are only too happy to strap explosive belts onto their children and send them, along with as many innocent Israelis as possible, to their deaths?

thatscottishwo

Djookers: "So you post at #174 should read..."

...exactly how I wrote it.

Djookers: "Why do you misrepresent yourself??????"

I don't. But you're doing a fine job of misrepresenting me. The question is, why?

SMG, Israel
Thatscottishwoman would not last a new york minute on the streets on America.
I researched the '400 children' remark. They are not children. Reports are the 350 terrorists were arrested for terrorist charges at the ages of 16, 17, 18. Most are held in general population but the Red Cross thinks they should be held in juvenile. Thatscottishwoman knows this of course, because one must assume she can read; the point is if she acknowledges this truth then she won't be able to argue and cause you pain. Thatscottishwoman's only purpose is just that- to cause you pain. She posts ion these blogs 14 hours a day, every day- which shows how empty her life truly is. She has so much hatred in her heart, that one can only feel sorry for her, which is my suggestion to you.
Spend you effort instead, uniting with those who will reach out and help each other, and by doing so, make a better planet
Carolyn

Thatscottishwoman #200

Hiyas TSW. I hope you are well.

"Futhermore, I believe that the early release of prisoners is a useful vehicle for enabling further peace talks and again would point readers to the prisoner release programme in the North of Ireland as a useful example"

I completely agree. Prisoner release would be a useful vehicle for peace and the northern ireland situation is a prime example.

In northern ireland the prisoners were only released once the terrorism had stopped and there had been longstanding ceasefires. I suggest we wait for the same before Israel agrees to release the palestinian terrorist prisoners.

Carolyn 1, thanks for the message.

My understanding of the truth, and my opinion about the issue, is perhaps somewhere between what you and Thatscottishwoman have written. Yes, as I wrote, and as you also indicate, many of the so-called "child prisoners" are older teenagers found guilty of terrorist offences. I imagine that no one here would want a 17-year-old mass murderer running free in his country; I don't want any running free in mine.

On the other hand, this doesn't accurately describe all of the youth offenders. So if mutual gestures of goodwill or a prisoner exchange is considered, rather than dealing with the issue of early release en masse, I'd want to see a list of names, ages, and crimes committed, to judge each case on its merits.

Carolyn 1: "Most are held in general population but the Red Cross thinks they should be held in juvenile."

Not just the Red Cross. If true, this is a violation of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which maintains that "every child deprived of liberty shall be separated from adults unless it is considered in the child's best interest not to do so..."

Yes, I know, Israel's enemies violate this and other treaties in a wholesale manner, day in, day out, and the very existence of child combatants is a war crime and a grave violation of international law. But stooping to their level is not acceptable to me.

Carolyn 1: "Thatscottishwoman's only purpose is just that- to cause you pain."

I don't think that is her purpose. We've had good discussions in the past, as well as strong disagreements. Now she won't talk directly to me because she doesn't like that I make use of the "Report as unsuitable" button. No matter. I will continue addressing her messages, and using that button, as I feel is appropriate.

Carolyn 1: "She has so much hatred in her heart, that one can only feel sorry for her, which is my suggestion to you.&qu

Bikewoman: "Well that certainly solves the mystery as to who is doing so much deleting."

Actually, it doesn't. I haven't been online much recently because we've had lots of holidays during which I don't use the computer. I only reported a few posts on this page as unsuitable, and I guess in some cases the moderator disagreed with my judgment, because not all of these were removed.

Carolyn 1 says she recommended removal of a few of her own posts. (I've done that before, too.) And a few other people have taken credit for removing one or another post.

Rainbird seemed upset about someone posting virulent anti-gay stuff, and wondered if that person had been banned. I asked Rainbird if s/he favors the deletion of virulently anti-gay messages, but got no answer.

Bikewoman: "...you are abusing the system set up by the Scotsman."

How so?

Bikewoman: "It is not a violation of the EULA to hold an opinion that differs from 'SMG.'"

I don't know what EULA stands for, but if I tried to remove all opinions that differ from my own, I'd have to report just about every message on this page. I haven't done that.

I believe one should be quite lenient with the rules. After all, they say one should not submit content that is "politically sensitive... or that may cause annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety". If one were to enforce this strictly, pretty much all conversation about the Arab-Israeli conflict would be shut down.

Thus, I am VERY selective, and only go after the really horrendous anti-Arab, anti-Jewish, and similarly bigotted stuff. And even then, the moderator sometimes disagrees with me. No problem there -- I am playing in The Scotsman's sandbox. If I didn't respect the rules or the way they are enforced, including sometimes against my own judgment, I wouldn't be here.

208. Grimwolf, USa / 2:17pm 10 Apr 2007

"Your wrong I am not anti-semetic...I am anti Islamand muslum."

In your posting 137 you were attacking Arabs, who are totally Semitic. Now it seems you are also against Islam and Moslems as well. You are greatly extending your racial prejudice to include religious prejudice as well. Anti-semitism is one of your minor faults it would seem.

Of course most moslems are non-semitic, just as most Israelis are non-semitic.

#211. SMG, Beit Shemesh, Israel - "Thus, I am VERY selective, and only go after the really horrendous anti-Arab, anti-Jewish, and similarly bigotted stuff" - how about the "nutbar" at #208 and that other headcase Stan the Man, who thinks the world is full of Brownshirts?

The deletions Imade are a lot of hoopla over nothing-
I removed my 2 posts because I answered a Personal question asked by another poster and I did not think it was appropriate on a public forum because it discussed my job and employer.

bill, england: "most Israelis are non-semitic."

LOL. Bill,

1) "Antisemitism" is not is discrimination, hostility or prejudice directed against "Semites", but against Jews. Look it up.

2) The whole "Semite" thing as some sort of racial/ethnic category is based more on mythology than on fact. About the only useful meaning of the term is linguistic.

Nevertheless, as these things are commonly defined, Jews are Semites. Most Israelis are Jews. And most Israelis are native Hebrew speakers; Hebrew is a Semitic language. Israel's largest minority is Arab and native Arabic speaking, i.e., also Semitic.

Non-Semitic Israelis? Yes, there a few. But they are really a very small minority. And even most of these have been or are in the process of being Arabized or Judaized.

Carolyn1 #205

"She has so much hatred in her heart, that one can only feel sorry for her, which is my suggestion to you."

I feel you are being unfair on thatscottishwoman. Although we often disagree on the actual causes of the present situation, tsw is one of those here who are pro-palestinian that I do respect. Often on these forums she has tried to steer the debate to ask what peoples solutions would be. She is sincere in her beliefs and even though I may disagree with her I dont think she has "hatred in her heart" at all.

Grimwolf #216

I like you believe the west is in a very dangerous situation now regarding Islam. Ironically, long-term I believe the biggest threat comes from our supposed ally Saudi Arabia and not from Iran.

All that said, praising the christian crusades is going way too far. The christian crusades were heinous and they are something we should not be proud of at all.

SMG, Beit Shemesh, Israel

I thought it may be of your interest to contribute in the other thread, the link as below. There are some posters exchanging comment about the country you're staying.

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=548042007

#217
Oliver
Never can I respect anyone who lies with such self satisfaction and glee and with the purpose to push her own agenda to the point of it being cruel.
She was speaking directly to someone in Israeli who lives the hell of being hated by those like TSW- (she was not to me- who lives safely far from it in the US- )

Type error- I meant to say she was Not speaking to me- who lives safely far from it in the US)

215. SMG, Beit Shemesh, Israel

'Encyclopædia Britannica Article
The term anti-Semitism was coined in 1879 by the German agitator Wilhelm Marr to designate the anti-Jewish campaigns underway in central Europe at that time. Although this term now has wide currency, it is a misnomer, since it implies a discrimination against all Semites. Arabs and other peoples…'

You are correct in that the original meaning of Semitic is one who speaks a Semitic language. This categorisation relates to indigenous populations, not transient or occupational. I am sure that some Romans, Turks and British spoke a semitic language when they were in Palestine, but that would not make them semites. Nor would it make the Zionists from Europe - the vast majority of the Israelis- semites. Whatever else they are, they are not semites, whereas all the Arabs are.

I'll stay with the correct usage, thank you.

216. Grimwolf, USA

See my #22 above.

You have made your prejudice against Arabs and Muslims very clear.

I would suggest that they are entitled to defend themselves against people such as yourself who attack them because of their race or religion.

Furthermore, it is the duty of a civilised society to protect its members who are attacked for such reasons.

137 Grimwolf

What nonsense! Thousands of years ago? You want to re-draw all borders according to what they were thousands of years ago? How many thousands? Where will you be living?

154 Lynne

You want to go back to ancient borders too? Are you actually Semitic or just a Jew of European descent? I can't imagine where you might end up.

206 Oliver F

As bad as Northern Ireland was, can you honestly compare it to Palestine? What do you think of the wall? I think it looks a lot like the wall around the Warsaw ghetto only worse.

#204 SMG,

"I don't. But you're doing a fine job of misrepresenting me. The question is, why?"

You made a statement regarding how you viewed various posts, anti this, anti that, coming across as a fair minded kind of person.

My response was a wee test of that.

You failed................

35 Carolyn 1

Get that fancy think tank to buy a better computer my kids laptop pulled up that link in 17 just fine.

janus #227

"As bad as Northern Ireland was, can you honestly compare it to Palestine? "

Yes I can honestly compare it. The casualty rates have been higher in the Israeli/Palestine situation but I think the northern ireland example is a good one. Israel should wait to release significant numbers of prisoners until there has been a lengthy and comprehensive ceasefire.

"What do you think of the wall? I think it looks a lot like the wall around the Warsaw ghetto only worse"

The difference is that the germans werent being attacked by suicide bombers. I think the wall is an excellent idea badly carried out. The wall does work. It does its job. It has cut down suicide bombings by well over 50%.

Where I think there is justifiable concern is over the route the wall takes. I think the route of the wall should be changed but that it should remain till there is a lasting peace.

Janus #229

It most likely has nothing to do with the quality of carolyns computer and more to do with browser settings/firewalls. Some of us prefer to be more security aware when surfing online.

Imelda, thanks for the link :)

Carolyn 1, cc: Oliver F., if TSW hates me, she does. Believe me, it doesn’t make my life hell.

#49
Carolyn1..My husband and I took to a trip to Russia with our 3 kids in 1985.. We met many refusnicks, mainly couples and students.
When we came home, the people that we travelled with and us formed an organization to get them out of Russia, and resettle them in the US.

In order to get the married couples out, they had to divorce and marry people they had "met once" and had been writing to ever since. When they married, we had to arrange for them to get out, and stay here, only later to divorce and marry their original spouses.
There were a few times, the women would not remarry them, because this is the first time they were really free!!

The students were a different story, and a little harder to get out. But all in all, we managed to get out about 50 couples and I'm not sure how many students.
What an experience, and what a life lesson..

janus-
Thank you for the advice.
I have 5 different computers that I work on. This particular one was built for me and is the only one that goes on-line which is highspeed; it has a Lot of security; Of course we've already had this discussion. I could have switched to my cheap laptop; but I knew the link was not worth it.

Lynne,
I didn't know that; I didn't have anything to do with the planning- a local temple took care of that- all I did was the easy part- donate money and then give them a job when they got here. All of them were jewish. All of who came here had been persecuted in some way.
They didn't want to talk about it and I didn't ask; but they were very happy to work, very intelligent and all went on to high jobs after they mastered their english.

Janus...I never said anything about going back to borders...I just wrote some facts that some people here choose to overlook.

Are all of these deletes Thatscottishwoman's comments?

Janus..what difference does it make what kind of Jew I am? Is one better than the other?
And by the way, I like the wall. It has stopped many a suicide bomber.
We here are building a wall, and frankly I wish it would include the entire border between us and Mexico.
How come you do not list where you are from?

Carolyn1...could I tell you some stories!!!! They were also also Jewsih, and we formed this organization under the name of St. Johns....
When I went, the KGB was still there, and the entire group I was with was being watched!!
We had fun, ducking them, and splitting up...stories, I would love to tell you. A real life lesson.

Bill, England, cc: Janus,

Muslim Arab imperialists conquered Palestine in the early 600s, bringing their language and religion, which are “indigenous” to the Arabian Peninsula. Jews lived here for at least 1800 years before the Arab conquest. Judaism is indigenous to this land. Hebrew is indigenous to this land, and virtually indistinguishable from ancient Canaanite. We are indigenous to this land.

Bill, we didn’t learn Hebrew like some British diplomat or Roman soldier might, in order to “speak with the natives”. We are the natives, and the only Hebrew speaking nation in the world. Hebrew is a language we carried with us into exile, maintained for a few thousand years, and carried with us back home. This Semitic tongue was the our people’s main language for most of the period when we enjoyed political independence in our homeland, and was a lingua franca for Jews spread throughout the world and for those who returned to Palestine long before the rise of modern political Zionism.

Your idea that we are “transient” or “occupational”, and akin to the Romans, Turks, or British, is simply bizarre. The land of Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people. Period. The vast majority of Israelis are not “Zionists from Europe”. In fact, the vast majority is not even descended from “Zionists from Europe”. If you continue to believe such fictions, you cannot possibly hope to understand the actual situation.

Obviously, for a considerable period of our history, most Jews lived in Europe. That period ended in the ovens of Auschwitz. And though it lasted a long time, it didn’t change the fact that we, our culture, language, religion, calendar, national literature, past, and future, are focused not on Europe or any other foreign soil, but on our homeland – Eretz Israel.

Bill, England: “Whatever else they are, they are not semites, whereas all the Arabs are.”

It is clear from this sentence that for you, this is not an issue that can be examine

Djookers, you can take your wee test and kindly shove it where the sun don’t shine. I couldn’t care less whether you think I am fair minded. And you still haven’t explained why you insist on misrepresenting my views.

good evening, Lynne & Carolyn 1!! just finished reading all...whew!!

#241--SMG--hi there! i see the anti-Israel brigade is very active this evening..........

224 and 226 Janus

What's the big fuss????? Are you new here? Your old pals in this board have also all this while ---- always talking way back to thousand of years and pointing to historical facts to support their claims. Why didn't you tell them too? You are a hypocrite then!!

227.
Hey, the Wall saves innocent lives!!! The victims of suicide bombers are mainly consisted of unarmed civilians who have nothing to do with politics. Are you against saving innocent lives???????

Demand Israel to give up lands she won after wars??? That is completely ridiculous and unreasonable! Now, why not also tell Pakistan to return to Indian rule? Or tell the White immigrants to allow the native Aborigines taking over control of Australia?

Give the Palestinians an inch, they will ask for a mile!!!!!

Hi Carolyn I

Good Morning! How're you doing lately? Come across this thread and saw you here.

I watched the video you sent #158 with regards to training children to be suicide bombers. It is of little wonder that problems with the Palestinians cannot be solved because they have been teaching their kids to hate the Jews and to seek heroic death for Allah!!!
The videos have made the terrorist apologists and appeasers here a fool for supporting terrorism!

Hello Grimwolf. Good posts. Keep posting.

Djookers - Dragonhead chose to stay in China but this does not necessary mean he will support all the policies of the Chinese communist government. Likewise, you can also find many tourists visiting China but this does not in any way mean they agree to the government policies there.

Dragonhead might be a retired expatriate and possibly could have moved around elsewhere visiting and staying in other countries from time to time.
Remember, he married a Chinese woman and hence, his wife might have greatly influenced him to stay there.