Peaceful Islamic methodology then ... Sheer puke. Those mariners had not killed or injured anyone. Now that basket-case theocratic state proclaims a propaganda victory. At least their technique is consistent.

They are free, that's what matters. Any future hostages may suffer because poor reporting.

so Faye, its OK if our soldiers are taken hostage, humiliated and played with every couple of years by the IRanians as long as they dont actually kill any ? Why have a military at all then ?

Sooner or later; Irans military is going to have to be taken out. Not a matter of if, only when.

While not wishing to minimise what they went through, I suppose we should be grateful that the Iranians didn't treat their captives like the USA treats their prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. I expected we would see the 15 paraded in orange suits precisely to remind the world of what the USA is still doing with people it 'detained' some 5 years ago.

I too am glad they are back,and eagerly await the court marshall of them all.
Presumably they were armed and yet allowed themselves to be taken without the slightest resistance.
Are Royal marines not supposed to be the elite of the navy?
As for Gobblers comment,we all hope and pray this will happen but not by the British
I fear,who are now the laughing stock of all Tin pot dictators/terrorists etcworld wide.

GW; what do you know about the treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo? I would imagine that your "knowledge" comes from some anti American news source....maybe even the anti American U.N. . Its obvious that you do not like the United States and probably blame us for all of the worlds grief. Sooner or later you will be confronting the evil that Islamic terrorists are spreading in this world......maybe then you'll have a change of heart where America is concerned.

#7
Much of the Guantanamo info comes from U.S. sources. It is the American ideal of liberty and justice that is being throttled by Americans.
I love America. I love its history, its geography, its institutions and most of all its people. But that doesn't mean it is always correct. Vietnam and now Iraq has shown that their geopolitical strategy can be somewhat shortsighted.
If Iran is to be brought back into the global village, use the anaconda approach, squeeze; the lunge of the cobra carries the possibility of a miss.

Scullion..... just because a news source is from the U.S., don't assume it is not anti American. Much of the mainstream media and even the democrat party are so anti Bush; they will criticise anything that he is behind.....even if it hurts our country.

Gobbler...You are so right. The anti-Bush haters will blacken everything he does.
As far as Guantanamo goes, the prisoners in Orange are the worst of the lot. They all do not wear orange.They earn their way out of that color.
They get TV, book, meals, medical care, the Red Cross has an office, and they visit all the time, so do members of Congress, and the Senate.
We have offered to send back some to their own countries to be tried, and told they don't want them. Others (prisoners) do not want to leave to return to a country (theirs') to be tortured by by them.

Faramars...where are you? Can you see yet what your country is up to?

Angus Lindsay - i think Gobbler would best fit your definition of a "guantanamo apologist".

I believe the point being made was - the iranians didn't do an abu graib on the 15 brits, thankfully.

Secondly - one of the brits was interviewed before he was captured bragging about collecting intel on iranian activity. If the brits were in Iraqi waters, HMS Cornwall would have blown the iranians out the water, no? By the way - where was HMS Cornwall during this little episode?

It looks like the brit government orchestrated an episode to set up the iranians and it almost worked. Tony B Liar scored significant daily propaganda victories over his iranian counterpart every time the iranians put the brits on tv. Ultimately, the iranians showed at the end that they have a flair for the dramatic as well.

One of the reasons i'm led to explore the possibility of this incident being a set-up is the raft of anti-iranian news bulletins that have permeated the MSM in the days since the brits release. The powers that be want a confrontation and are working hard to condition enough minds to allow them popular support for the strike they crave.

As for the tube who criticises the brits for not opening fire on the iranians - they'd all be dead now if they did. Do you get that? Do you understand that? They were outnumbered, outpositioned, outmanouvered and had significantly less firepower.

They didn't open fire because it would have been suicide. Sensible commandeering prevailed and he saved the lives of his crew. Commendable soldiering under the circumstances.

The people are anti-Bush as well, look at your recent elections.
People are anti-Bush not because they don't like him personally, it is because he has led them into a new Vietnam and they don't want it.
I quoted the figure of 3500 U.S. dead and 25,000 wounded (many horribly maimed) in this quagmire of Iraq in a recent post-and for what and why? Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism and they had no WMD (how humiliating for Colin Powell at the U.N.).
Be a staunch Republican, it is your right-but don't unquestioningly follow a man who is killing your children for nothing.

RE: Scullion, for nothing you say how about 911??
We ( the USA ) have been attacked by terrorists since we had that rediculous President Carter wimp no.I Everyone seems to forget the airliners blown up the Embassys the Marine barracks. The USS Cole
and the first bombing of the trade center in 1993 ETC. ETC. It is pathetic how soon people forget.

To get back to the point...

The extent of the diversion from domestic UK and Iranian problems created by the hostage-taking incident, not to say the dreadful smirking of Tony Blair et al at their release, is enough to make even a sceptic think that the whole incident was devised and stage-managed purely to enhance the personal standing of those countries' leaders.

Where are the conspiracy theorists when one needs them?

JK...anyone who does not agree with you is an apologist for whatever the theme of the day is.
You on the other hand are a conspiracist...fortunately for you, your are not as bad as Wally.

As far as the elections go, the Dems that won the elections answered the prayers of all the terrorists.
Meanwhile they broke all their promises to the american public, and their electors in less than 3 months...must be a record.

They should just thank themselves lucky they weren't Iraquis who were sitting warming their hands over a parafin stove and emptying their toilet down a hole in the ground trying best to avoid contamination of the water supply. Sitting quietly when their door is kicked down and and all the men are taken away and put in a hell hole of a prison and systematically abused for being Iraqui in their own country.

The people who were held and their comrades in Basra do this every day using skills honed on the streets of Belfast. This is the British army of today.

We are supposed to have sympathy for these people?

it is easy to judge about this statements and I am sure that in near future every thing will be revealed .I have to ask why rest of the sailors ,particularly Faye did not take part in this conference ?

now now Lynne in #16;

you are disloyal to the American people & nation IMHO. I reject everything you say. and I tell you that John Wayne who lived in Arizona at the conclusion of his life and loved this state would do the same. You are a nut!

#16 -Lynne - your reference to me appears to make little sense. I did not call anyone an apologist. Angus Lyndsey incorrectly labelled an anti-gitmo poster as a "guantanamo apologist".

The correct use of the term is best suited to someone who excuses or downplays the conditions at gitmo, like the poster i referred to did.

It's not a criticism -just a fact.

Further - here are two sides to this conspiracy coin;

1) -the "official" conspiracy theory
2) - the truth

That proves that it's not me who's the consipracy theorist.

Scullion, GW and Angus Lindsey, not a Kelt among them. Nothing more than a bunch of whiney children who have no understanding of how the military operates and is only capable of chanting the rhetorical bile fed to them by poofters of the left.

Yes its good tidings that the 15 captives were returned safely home. But they were taken without any defensive action on their part and embarassed the Royal Navy with all of their mugging and mucking for the press. The thank yous and gift bages were a really nice touch!

They not only puked on the floor before their captors, but also on the tradition of one of the bravest, fiercest and historically proud armed services in the world.

I don't know if they should be court martialed, but they most certainly should be quietly discharged from the service. Captain Air should have his rank reduced before he is given the boot. He showed no leadership at all.

What shame they have brought to the Royal Navy. My guess is that too many will wish to ever serve with them, because they have destoryed the bond of trust that is basic to the fabric of the armed forces.

#17 Leon, are you a native of Belfast or Northern Ireland?

Amnesty International & Liberty International are making representations to the Iranian Government about their inhumane treatment of the captives.

Not likely, it’s only when Britain and America do things like this that they have a voice, why?

N0 22

No

"Blindfolded, segregated, questioned. Had to sleep on blankets for two weeks." Picnic compared to a stretch in Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib without the Ambass's unstinting dinner dances. Reckon the Brits tortured them into making these confessions ?

This isn't an argument about which side of a dotted line in the water they were on. The issue is what right does a Brit boat have to be in anybody else's waters; Iranian, Iraqi or Kwazimodian.

"Now look here, we're British and we're coming aboard for a jolly decent look around. My minister thinks you chaps look a bit rum to be frank, up to no good. Where is the minister ? Lunching at his club, I imagine, he often does. I'm not certain I like the cut of your gib, dear boy. Stand aside, stand aside this instant."

The mighty Iranian navy piped them aboard and locked 'em up!

It's over. It's been over for fifty years. And we're still paying for it.

If independence in Scotland does come to pass, we should certainly invite our good English friends and neighbours to carry on with their Rule Britannia and their fine Morris dancing. They will no doubt wish to maintain ancient traditions with their boats and their subs pottering along the waterways of the globe, cadging fuel from Los Americas, getting banged up by minnows and awarding themselves bravery gongs to set off their smart white outfits. They might be unhappy without their naval exercising and we would probably manage along fine without the cost and the embarrassment of it.

Win, win!

#21,
I agree with you TOTALLY. It is not their fault believe me. The generation has changed. The Royal Navy's recuirtment logo still is; Join the Navy and see the World!! These boys think they are on holiday.As for #18;FARAMARS, he should get a new English Dictionary. He does not know the difference between a Guest and a Hostage. My guess is that, he gets paid to appear on this site. His English has also improved over Time too.

#24 Leon, Thanks that's what I thought

re the British Hostages, I applaud the British Government on the diplomatic way in which they dealt with a very delicate situation and because of that, the Iranians duly released the hostages. Perhaps other countries can now take note of a non aggressive way in dealing with such a difficult situation.

Jim A
Does it matter when you are concrned with what is right and wrong in ths world?

New suits, nuts & gifts. Zero bruises, cuts or even a single scratch between 15 "hostages".

Hardly Gitmo is it?

The Liar and The Monkey want to invade Iran they are just looking for excuses now, its a pity they used WMD and 45 minutes because this time the country does have a nuclear capability.

"From the outset, it was very apparent that fighting back was simply not an option. Had we chosen to do so, then many of us would not be standing here today. Of that I have no doubts."

OK Mr. Commando, tell that to your predecessors whose name you trade on. The ones who launched countless operations knowing from bitter experience that many of them would not be coming back.

They fought. Many didn't come back. But they were real commandos, not snivelling, posturing w***ers who just wear the uniform, who grovel and lie their way out of a fight like miniature khaki versions of their grovelling and lying prime minister.

Does anyone think that this is finished? If so, they are stuck in 1938.

The returned detainees did everything right in order to survive. Just as they've been trained to. If any of we posters had been taken without the benefit of that training, I doubt we'd still be alive to talk about it.

Regardless of who's right or wrong, Iran, under Ahminadinnajacket IS spoiling for a fight and unfortunately the US and UK under the present administrations, want to respond in kind.

Have they never heard of the Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #35 Peace is good for business??

Maybe some of the guards had family on the plane that the 'west' shot down? 260 people dead, 66 of the were children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

As for the GTMO comparisons: The difference is that we knew who the Iranians had taken. No naked body pile photos on the net, no pics of Iranian soldiers pointing at genitalia as if they had never seen willies before, no hooded 'uk' soldiers mock- wired up, no serious stiff-kickings, no photos of them being threatened by attack dogs, no images of the captives having their teeth examined a la Saddam.

So, which 'nation state' acted with more civility?

An PLEASE do NOT respond with the usual Anti-American label, please. Develop an argument against what I have posted instead of using pre-made vacuous names against me.

From left, Joe Tindell, Arthur Batchelor, Chris Air, Felix Carman, Adam Sperry and Simon Massey - and what they had to say.
Picture: Anthony Devlin/PA
Anthony GOOD photoghraph. Rest is all ..You thought she, he, my dog, his car, all assumptions.."Lads, lads. I think we are going to be executed." At that point, one of the hostages vomited:.. What about the THE soldiers that were played by the lady GI butt of the gun and husband watching. That was not cruelty. TV showed this I did not see you vomit. Got Chickens

#12 - " Where was HMS Cornwall" - if you ask that question you need to ask - did she have submarine support,proper air support and naval back up - I would guess she didn't.
Perhaps as you said - #12 "They didn't open fire because it would have been suicide. Sensible commandeering prevailed and he saved the lives of his crew ( and possibly ship). Commendable soldiering under the circumstances."

Daily Telegraph 12/11/2006 -

"During the "Great Prophet" manoeuvres, Iran's military showcased a range of rockets and missiles, including the Shahab-3, which has a range of 1,200 miles and can carry a nuclear warhead.
It also tested anti-ship missiles with a range of more than 100 miles and shoulder-borne anti-helicopter weapons. The missiles mean shipping across the Gulf is now within Iran's sights, as well as the Strait of Hormuz, through which passes a fifth of the world's oil supply.

Perhaps caution on the part of Cornwalls stance was the best option.

The way I saw the TV, the lady was separated and rest treated very well. Now those are hearsay but were not returned. The Gauantanamo are rotting. Please think of them now. Mr. Bush you are the only one lawyers who can see the justice done. All were picked up random treated badly and are still kept in the cage no human has ever seem these was not even in the Hitler’s era

Why should these young sailors have thrown their lives away needlessly, just to satisfy a few armchair generals? We are not at war with Iran, the U.K is not under attack, these young people are home and alive, that is all that matters.
The fault lies with the Royal Navy, where was the back up?
This government if it wants to get involved in military matters needs to spend some money on the armed forces.
A last note ,the U.S are our allies, God bless them. all.

My opinion still is, they are not heroes as i posted yesterday.Their press conference was to orchestrated its intention to make Iran look worse and make the marines and sailors look braver than we know they were. Its intention was also to deflect criticism away from their inept commanders who are unable to criticise their men without bringing an enquiry upon themselfs. If commanders are going to send men to these waters then they may as well be unarmed at least we wouldn't lose weaponry as well as boats.This is the second debacle the marines have brought down on this country and it's time the rules of engagement were updated so that Iran know that a similar incedent would be treated as an act of war.This of course is only my opinion.

This newspaper has been hijacked by the yanks !

39. jim lad, the capital

You still don't get it do you?

The rules of engagement were set by the MOD aka Bliar. The sailors and marines were lightly armed and under orders not to resist, their vessel had no air land or sea support or monitoring.

Their training for capture stood them in good stead as they are all back in one piece, no thanks to Bliar who was ramping the whole thing up for his own purposes.

For you to even think about blaming our troops for anything is very wrong of you.

I am still laughing at the quote: "...they were subjected to random questioning." Ooh! The viscious nasty people! Oh no! Not the comfy chair!

It's funny how this wonderful propaganda works. When the Iranians set up a 'staged event' it's a bad thing:

“The captives held by Iran will arrive back in Britain today after Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the president, staged his public- relations stunt as an Easter "gift" for Britain.”

“The president, seen by other world leaders as an outcast, kept his audience waiting, spending several hours trying to transform himself into an important and reasonable figure of stature. “

from:http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=5228...

But today, we have the 'uk' staged event and that is right and proper!?!

"Take down the Union Jack, it clashes with the sunset......"

40. Fred

Oh no it's not!

NUMBER---RANK----NAME ONLY.THE IRANANIANS WOULD NOT HAVE HARMED THEM.THEY WOULD HAVE HAD WORLD CONDEMNATION IF THEY HAD.IT WAS EMBARRASSING FOR US TO WATCH.SORRY NUMBER----RANK---NAME ONLY.

38. Scimiter, uk / 9:19am 7 Apr 2007

"Why should these young sailors have thrown their lives away needlessly, just to satisfy a few armchair generals? We are not at war with Iran, the U.K is not under attack, these young people are home and alive, that is all that matters."

Absolutely.

"The fault lies with the Royal Navy, where was the back up?"

The back up was available, the Royal Navy was obviously under orders from on high not to use it.

44. robert SHIVAGO, livingston

"NUMBER---RANK----NAME ONLY."

Irrelevant! They were not prisoners of war, just capturd intruders.

They would be acting in accordance with their training, and it worked. They are home now.

I should say that it is nice to these Carlyle group and Halliburton employees back home and safe.

They really should seek out advice from their Union reps about why the company puts their workers at such risk.

Does the term Health & Safety mean nothing to these companies?!

36. AJR

"#12 - " Where was HMS Cornwall" - if you ask that question you need to ask - did she have submarine support,proper air support and naval back up - I would guess she didn't."

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that air and sea and probably land back up was available; but the Royal Navy would be under orders not to use it.

HMS Cornwall was the the flagship of a twelve vessel international force (including USA and Australia), and would have all that and more besides at the push of a button. If things got really bad, the USA carrier groups could have opened up and literally turned Iran to rubble.

As our cousins say - go figure.

oops: "nice to SEE these....."

47. Finnking, In the Forest

"I should say that it is nice to these Carlyle group and Halliburton employees back home and safe."

Maybe they have Iran for a client already, and they didn't want to have to pay Easter overtime rates.

Anything is possible with big business.

#40 Fred
I enjoy all the contributions no matter where they say they are posting from. I have learnt a lot about politics,history both British and foreign,religion of all types and so much more. The great thing about this board to me is, no matter how strongly someone disagrees with a posters point of view the posters should never feel threatened because they have that wonderful tool of anonymity. Who knows who they really are or where they really come from, who cares we could all be standing next to each other in a pub or at a football match and we woudn't have a scooby. Anonymity is such a strong tool that is why terrorists for example use it, no uniforms for them so they can't be hurt if they hide behind it. Iv'e never understood the need to moderate anyone on this board because if you are anonymous how can you be hurt and if some use double postings then what does that say of them.My first name is Jim and Jim Lad has always been my nickname and i come from Edinburgh and have ever made any secret of that. But all that aside i get so much out of these boards i can only say thank you for broadening my education.

I totally agree with Bill @ 41.
At the end of the day would YOU want to die for Tony Blair's Britain and all that stands for.
Let me think... er no.

#41 bill
My closing remark was i was exorcising the right to voice my opinion which does in no way means i am right nor does it mean i am wrong. I respect your right to disagree with me, but if you are right and their orders were not to resist then why the hell were they sent in the first place.This is what i can't get my head around-----Regards

So which version is it when they were telling the truth? The one when they were trying to placate their captors, or the one when they were trying to placate their emloyers and masters after having been briefed (rehearsed?) by them and to placate hostile public opinion? As one G Brown almost put it on another celebrated Blair occasion - "how can we believe you ever again?" Blair got us into this mess - it's high time he got us out of it.
For Heaven's sake get Scotland out of this dishonourable, sordid and shameful UK. May 3 - vote SNP!

Ouch.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04062007/postopinion/opedcolu...

#61 interesting piece, obviously very easy to comment when you are sitting behind a typewriter thousands of miles away.

Easy indeed. But what of the analysis? Is it right or wrong?

I hope Blair is happy- he and his "Government" have turned Britain into the laughing stock of the world- Now even Arab countries are pushing us around- they should not have dared touch out soldiers! And when we found they had Blair should have said; '24 hours for their release or we take your top 15 men hostage!' SAS i think...
It's pretty disgusting the way these people handle things over there; they're animals.

#61 It's spot on. ... Just wonder how Britain would react if the Iranian Navy were floating round the English Channel searching boats

Why do I get the feeling that the methods used by the Iranian military aren't exactly unique. Do you honestly think that if the roles were reversed, certain parts of our forces wouldn't have employed the same tactics?

OK, maybe we wouldn't have paraded prisoners in front of the media, but you can rest assured that UK special forces are trained in the same sort of techniques that we saw in Iran. I can bet there's a few IRA suspects who went through the same 'trauma' in the eighties.

53- I agree to an extent- Not being the army myself I can't comment too much as I don't personally know what it's like to be in a battle zone like Iraq but they signed up for it; they have to be prepared to go to war. And another thing- when they saw the Speedboats coming in; why didn't the commander call in the Frigate I think it was to blow them out of the water when they were blocked in...? I presume Labour haven't made the cut backs that bad that we can't even afford Radios anymore? OR is that why the Frigates Radars couldn't pick these other boats up- maybe the electricity bill is too much... a waste... This government makes me sick! What kind of a government cuts back out military so bad that it forces redundancies and makes us even weaker when we are 'in war?'

#67. http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2007/04/heads-must-roll....

" it seems more clear than ever that the capture could not have happened had a warship been standing off to protect them. It is even questionable whether it would have happened had the Lynx remained on guard, as it seems – according to the new narrative – that the Iranian Revolutionary Guards only approached after the unexpected departure of the helicopter."

from EUReferendum

"They hadn't been through the Bataan Death March. They didn't suffer four years in Changi Prison after the fall of Singapore. They didn't spend a five-year lifetime in the Hanoi Hilton. And we have yet to see evidence of torture.

But they started criticizing their own country within days."

Besides the right-wing slant of the article, how is Peters wrong?

The Iranian Navy should already be on the bottom of the sea and it's nuclear facility destroyed by whatever means is required.

There seem to be so many whinging 'chamberlin' style peacenicks that couldn't see a global threat if it danced infront of them!

These are the sorts that would put the rights of a foreign suicide bomber infront of our own native people. Which is disgusting on somany levels ...

# 53

....I take it you are a football hooligan.

Surely they were not prisoners of war, technically. But they were captured by a country that they thought at the time meant to do them harm. Peters' point is that they folded like a house of cards, with no real tribulation. And they accepted gifts as though they had just been to a party. I do not think they are "heroes."

56. jim lad, the capital

"My closing remark was i was exorcising the right to voice my opinion which does in no way means i am right nor does it mean i am wrong. I respect your right to disagree with me"

And I respect your right to disagree with me.

"but if you are right and their orders were not to resist then why the hell were they sent in the first place"

I can't get my head round that either, but that was clearly the case.

Alice (6), Surely you're not serious! These 15 people pulled up beside an Iranian patrol boat, and presumably powered down their engines. They were then surrounded by Iranian vessels. Each Iranian vessel would have had mounted full power machine guns and granade launchers pointing at the 15 British. Against this, the 15 British in a dinghy, had a standard issue rifle each. If shooting had commenced, they may well have taken out a couple of Iranian guards, but they would have had no chance. They were just too heavily out numbered out gunned and on top of that, surrounded without any cover. Realising this, and that they were not defending any military strategy point, thier commander decided to surrender. Based on all the reports, I'm not aware of any senior military personnel or observers from any country, who criticises the British for surrendering in these circumstances. The questions we should be asking are: 1. where was their backup? 2. Why was no action taken against the Iranian vessels for breaching Iraqi waters?

I wonder how things would be working out if Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher were still at the helm?? Would people have a different view of wotld events?

#77 bill
Fair enough bill i think we actually agree with each other if i'm interpretating you correctly. Thanks for your reply.
Regards

Gobbler # 4, "Sooner or later; Irans military is going to have to be taken out. Not a matter of if, only when"

It's just that sort of attitude from George Bush and his chum over here that got us into the mess of Iraq. Fortunately for us, you are not in charge of these decisions and, if we can last another 19 months, neither will George Bush.

Julian(82) It is clear that you strongly dislike George Bush and probably Blair as well; how about a responce to my question in post#79.

I hope Bush does the right thing in his last year of office and wipes the Mullahs off the map!!! Go Bush and Israel!

Gobbler # 83, it's impossible to say what would have happened with Thatcher and Reagan in charge but I guess we would still have gone into Iraq with Thatcher taking the lead. That's all just interesting guesswork however.

The main point is that the majority of people in all countries agree that Iraq was a terrible mistake. The attitude of people like you who say that invading Iran is inevitable is exactly the same as the mindset of Bush, his neo-conservatives and his poodle over here which took us into the disaster that is now Iraq.

And in case you were about to say it, i'm not a pacifist and i'm not saying that invading Iran should never be considered.

#46 Bill,Sorry,they were prisoners,number rank name only.We are British.It was embarrassing to watch.I expect the 15 will also squirm when they see the replay.They would have tortured me ,but i assure you they would not have got anything from me.Our discipline i am sorry to say,HAS GONE.

Post 53
I cannot believe that you honestly feel they should have done anything different in the circumstances. You have to ask yourself where was the backup for our troops.

julian - my point about Reagan and Thatcher is the way they were viewed would have changed peoples perspective on the course of events. If Clinton had still been President on 9/11...... I'm not sure that the course of events would have been much different; just the reactions of many. I didn't hear much bashing when we acted in Bosnia (a place we probably had less reason to be in than Iraq).
The idea that we will be in Iran sooner or later is because they are ruled by people that want to destroy Israel and all of western civilization in the end.

Wally, Wally, Wally, you would find a conspiracy in a cow giving milk.

Read your own posts

Nobody here seams to make a sensible comment without bringing up Gauantanamo. This is a seperate thing altogether and has nothing to do with what Iran is up to. Those at Gauantanamo have been offered to be sent back to their respective countries on many occassions and most have refused for fear of being executed there.

In Iran it is the military who hold the power. The polititians can only make speaches and do whatever they want with the military's backing. If the Military don't like it then polititians are placed under house arrest and this happens on a regular basis.

It would appear to me that the Iranian military are spoiling for a fight and the caputure of the british sailors was a case of a preplanned action. For those British sailors it was "wrong place, wrong time" and it was only some hard talking and a rethink by the Iranians of how to get out of the mess they had got themselves into with some political milage that saved things getting far worse.

to Mobat(#58) it was the highjackers on 9/11 that got us into this mess....and yes;I believe in piece with firepower. The best way to be left alone is to scare those that wish you harm.

Gobbler # 88. I'm not sure what would have happened if Clinton were in power but I suspect Iraq would not have happened. More realistically, if the hanging chads of Florida had swung Gore's way, there would have been no Iraq war as he stated last year in a talk I went to see.

I disagree that we had less reason to go into Bosnia. There was no choice there if we wanted to prevent the Muslims being further ethnically cleansed and massacred. There was a need for immediate action to prevent that, unlike in Iraq. And it had international backing and Nato agreement.

I think your attitude towards Iran is defeatist and blinkered. Yes, there was a statement that Israel should be wiped off the map and there are lots of people there that want an end to Westen attitudes. However, they have not done anything aggressive to other countries, the nuclear issue is still under negotiation and, a couple of years ago they had a president who was friendly to the west. How do you know that the regime will always be unfriendly?

One thing the scotsman does is bring people together many scots from different parts of the world.
Many other people from parts of the world to.
If there was no disagreements then it would be a wasted adventure.
One thing that does bring true to many generations of Scots and others when it goes to push and shove the uk and its allies do act mostly in a positive manner.
My reason for being in kent I was homeless and destitute I had no drug or alcohol habit.
It was basically I was a carer and when my duty as a family member was finished I was thrown out and had no place to go so I headed for London with one bag of belogings.
I want to come home but dont blame the world for my troubles.
So all this arguments over right wingers and left wingers dosent make sense.
We should unite together and make a difference.
Leat in Scotland/uk you can voice your opion and it would be sad if their was interference from the usa or other places.
The scotsman has given us all a platform to remember our ain folk use it or lose it
chaz mcallister

peace -sorry

#95, that's just darn right rude!!!

Did you not read the rules. Here's a refresher,

"Don't swear, be offensive or post comments that break the law"

#95 Actually, I read the Scotsman so I can get a different point of view from that available only in the US. Is that a bad thing?

The taking of the British boat was an act of war-
The British resolve has been tested and found wanting.
iran now sees that the brits have not the stomach for retaliation--even a BLOODLESS retaliation like blockading their ports and sending the iranian embassador and his staff packing
Just who advised Mr Blair throughout this raises questions.

we believe it is time for our own jihad on the god fearing lower orders .as soon as our people were out of irans waters the west should have quietly launched a combined missile strike [no warnings]the warning would be clear to the islamic nations "live in harmony or dont live at all" your actions will not be tolerated. a scorched earth will send our message.

I really do not see how the Brits have lost ANY FACE. I think the 15 acted the right way, as they are alive. As for what they did while captives, I believe they did what they had to do. And that no one ought to say anything about it except other Brits who have been held captive, and really understand what it is like to hear a gun cock at your head, while blindfolded and handcuffed and turned towards the wall so to be shot.
I do however see how the Iranians have lost face, or actually their style of actions have become more in focus. And now that they are more in focus it is more clear how they act in the world community. Taking captives for trespassing, and their actions afterward, clearly show how they are, and who they are.
I remember watching a bully picking on another boy, he was all "in power" until that boys bigger brother showed up, then the bully quickly started acting nice to the boy (dusting the dirt off of his coat and such) when just moments ago (before the bully realized he was in grave danger) he was punching and hitting the same boy.
The Iranians began with actions of a bully and then when they saw that they had made a mistake, and were in grave danger, they brushed off the 15 gave them new clothes and "gifts" and sent them on their way.

yes the taking of the boat and the 15 was a act of war.
Can I join your "Knights of the Holy Cross"?
The Brits showed a lot of being civilized in the way they handled this situation. Very civilized.

Entropent @ 100...

A little bit of mischief making there from our friend Roon @ 95....

Absolutely nothing wrong with coming on here to pick up a different and hopefully more enlightened view than you might pick up at home...
There are certain posters from the US whose posts do make extremely good reading - most notably Wally.
You must surely admit that many US posters who come on here create an absolutely horrific picture of the types of people who might be commonly encountered in your country....

91. Djookers

Why are you always changing names and always on the side of the terrorist?

Armchair generals everywhere on this board!!
Not one of us were in the situation of these 15 and most of you have never been at the right end, never mind the wrong end of any weapon. So stop pontificating untill you have been in any situation that these 15 were in .
As for gobbler , JEESUS !!! have you and your followers had a lobotomy ? Your comments are so removed from reality I think you have .
Perhaps you and your cohorts would like to join the services then you could have first hand evidence to put on these comments. Somehow, I think you will back off from that, as it`s too cosy and safe where you are.
If any blame is to be pointed at anyone ,then point it towards Mr brown and Co. They are the ones who give the orders and have issued all of the services to cut back costs, and are also guilty of buying inferior equiptment which does not work. They are also the ones who don`t heed any warnings that were issued by the Irainian government . As i`ve already said on these comments before . The same scenario was had by the Americans less than 1 month ago . They fought their way out and had backup. Where was our backup and what are the rules for engagement issued to these people by the said politicians ? You can`t fight any war with both your hands tied behind your back.

Islam means peace apparently, the Iranians are a peaceful people and portray themselves as humanitarian, compassionate types. Can you imagine during a Rangers Celtic match where the scoreboard reads down with Iran? Can you imagine hordes of baying Glasgow Uni students tossing petrol bombs at the Iranian Embassy. The truth is these countries (Iran/Iraq) and their people are the most reactionary and intolerent on the planet. Look at the furore over the cartoons of the prophet or the Salman Rushdie case. These guys need to move into the 19th century never mind the 21st. Think how these events could have panned out if they had nuclear weapons.

# 105 i agree and you make the point most eloquently. # 99 no lecture required thank you. i am entitled to my opinion as are you. It is just that i have seen an 'invasion' of american chit chat recently some of which i agree contributes to the debate. however on the whole some of the posters appear to be akin to the characters from deliverance and im not talking about the ones who go for the boat trip. if i have offended i applogise..... you may not like what i say but i will defend to the death my right to say it...

#25

Try harder - the, nautical, phrase is "cut of your jib"

not gib

1. It is standard procedure, when in control of personnel of a nation you consider to be an enemy, to subject them to solitary confinement (to reduce the possibility of support for each other from each other), to remove their clothing and give them prison uniform (to point out to them that they are captives and cannot walk away, or even run), to parade them in front of Third Parties (to remind other nations of how exposed THEY are to the power of the dominant nation). Iran acted to further its own policies.

Whether our lads and lass were in the right or not, Iran challenged us, and got away with it. That's what we have to remember.

"Islamic Republics" (and there are several, where religious law is supreme, not civil law) share characteristics. They do not care what we outside think, so long as we fear them.

Iran has achieved its aim. Mayhap, one day, we will be able to return the favour. Right now, they BELIEVE they are invincible.

THIS has little to do with Bush, and a lot to do with Ayatollahs.

In the future, who knows?

roon
Not sure about characters straight out of Deliverance, but there are certainly characters. The more way-out, the better, to my way of thinking. I already know the American right-wing mindset. What I want to hear is the answer to the neocon narrative. Don't be upset by them, challenge them, so readers like me can get your perspective.

Jazzman..... not sure if you were including my comments as being critical of the 15 "hostages". Fact is I've not commented on them as I view their actions as your business, not mine. Not going to be critical of someone wanting to stay alive. As for the rest..you don't know me or my life experiances. I do predate VietNam; so I have seen a little history in the making. I am a realist and viewing events of today with a historical perspective; its not hard to figure out where we are headed. Amazing how history has a way of repeating itself. Too bad we don't seem to learn from it.

Americans should be welcome on this forum. Unfortunately some of them have been consumed by a neo-con induced war psychosis towards Islam. The response to any problem involving muslim countries is to bomb any muslim country. Islam = "Islamofascism" and a red mist descends. Debate is usually pointless. Instead we have to scroll past verbose psychotic rants. I can't believe these people represent mainstream America, but their conduct on overseas websites is not doing much for America's standing in the world.

'EU Referendum' is absolutely right, provided the commanding flag officer, Commodore Lambert (Rear Admiral, Lower Half to our American friends) screwed this up, he will never see promotion. However, if this was a staged incident, he asked his presumably puking and pants-soiling bunch to participate in, he will find himself in the Upper Half within no time.--Let's just wait and see.

#80
Thatscottishwoman
While walking if I see a pile of dog platter, I recognize it for the crap it is; I do not step in it, I don't go to great lengths to circumvent it, I step over it knowing that soon the Sanitation Department will remove it, and possibly the owner of the animal that provided the poopoo will be fined because the pooper scooper laws are enforced.

#114, rotflol. The US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, fights a proxy war with Iran, strong-arms its allies into putting their own troops in harm's way. . . and it is the posters on this website that are "not doing much for America's standing in the world." Please.

I'm one of those Americans who read the Scotsman daily. I read to get a more honest view of world news. (Sadly today that seems to be rare with the American press.) I rarely post. Most of usAmericans don't agree with Bush. As many of you are tired of Blair and his stand with Bush, we are tried of Bush rushing head on in defending his wrong opinion no matter how many cost in lives. Like many of you I wonder where the support for these 15 soldiers were at the time they were taken. And although I don't like how the Iranians acted, I'm not surprised and I doub if many of you are either. I'm just thankful they made it home safely.

I am not a Scottish National, but my herity is pur Scot in both sides of the family tree. I started to read this paper just to get a flavor of what Scotland really is and what they think of us. I get more information from the comments than the article it'sself. I try not to comment on articles that are internal but sometimes do like being glad that the sailors and marines are returned and safe. I try to remember that I am a guest. What I do read a lot of times is pure hate from persons that say that they are tolerant. Gitmo is not like the major news says, they have an agenda and it is anit Bush and they have and will manufacture "news" items. As for this article let us remember that Dunkirk it was more reasonable to evacuate than fight. Off the shores of North Korea one of our intelligence ships were captured. They and POW's from all allied nations gave statements and also in Vietnam. We all know it was bull and took it as such. From what I read this incident put them in the same situation and they acted as trained. To the ones that said they should have fought let me ask you this question. If you have a BB gun and are surrounded with a lot of AK-47s what would you do? None of us were there and really don't know the situation. Some may have been in that same kind of situation, would like to hear what you did. The bottom line............I thank God that they are home and safe.
Have a Blessed Easter and if you are not Christian may you holiday be peaceful.

As previously posted following the capture of the sailors, these guys have been hung up to dry by the navy who haven't a clue what they are about in these disputed waters. Get them away from this area now and let them act as troop carriers to bring our troops home from both Iraq and Afghanistan.

#117
It remains the case that certain American posters are not doing much for America's standing in the world regardless of what else is done. Posters are presumed to be individual citizens whereas foreign and defence policy is the government's stance.

#121 No disrespect intended, IWright, it just struck me funny. When you talk about America's "standing in the world" I think of a nation's position among nations, not posters on a website.

#29 you said "Does it matter when you are concrned with what is right and wrong in this world?

Depends on your view of what's wrong and what's right I suppose. You are entitled to your opinion though and I will never knock that .

One last question for you if I may. Have you ever been to Northern Ireland?

IWright @ 114 & 121

Very well said .... it certainly a few of the US posters on these boards certainly give a poor image of America.

Kenny Everett's mad US general with his constant cries of 'Bomb the B*****ds' when anyone stepped out of line springs to mind.

However, there are also many good Americans who do not run off at the mouth and rant and rave about bullying other countries into submission.

I know quite a few personally ... I am happy to say and on this board the posts by Aoda @ 119, gobbler and Deboiler are encouraging and portray a good image of America .... thanks to them.

Well I see another bright day of anger is well on it's way.Right wing left wing it still seems a bird with only one wing can't fly.Not sure about this troll thing,thought he was a hairy little guy that collects cash at the bridge.It seems to me that the actions of these 15 people at the initial were correct regardless of where the frigate was located,as for after I can't judge as I was not there.No western military advocates suicide simply for the sake of honour as far as I know.Former member 1/502nd inf. batt. 101st Airborne Div. 7/19/1972 through 7/25/1975.

BTW Good morning TSW.

One thing is sure the Iranians have to certain extent proved to the Arabs and the Muslim world that we(Iran) can stand up to any Western power and will not be bullied, even the likes of Great Britain. And I think that was the point they wanted to make. As far the capture of the Marines go, we do not know who is telling the truth , but personally believe the Marines. Iran has to be stopped for possessing nuclear weapons, if we want peace in that region. It always surprises me to see people blame every thing on Americans, Israel ,Britain and some times Europe. log on www.faithfreedom.org
www.thereligionofpeace.com

#5 GW

Oh no! Not those horrid orange suits again! I mean how could they! Yes, I agree entirely. To capture fanatics who serve no country, wear no uniforms, have attended and graduated form OBL's training camps and accept terror as their religion and just because of that we have the utter lack of civilized manners to dress them in ORANGE!! What kind of demented fiends are we? Who, I ask you, who looks good in orange. Many of these men have a somewhat swarthy skin tone that is especially unflattering in orange. Besides the Red Cross keeping constant watch on their treatment, we, you and me, GW, should demand that the terrorists be given immediate access to the tailor of their choice.

One thing is sure the Iranians have to certain extent proved to the Arabs and the Muslim world that we(Iran) can stand up to any Western power and will not be bullied, even the likes of Great Britain. And I think that was the point they wanted to make. As far the capture of the Marines go, we do not know who is telling the truth , but personally believe the Marines. Iran has to be stopped for possessing nuclear weapons, if we want peace in that region. It always surprises me to see people blame every thing on Americans, Israel ,Britain and some times Europe. log on www.faithfreedom.org
www.thereligionofpeace.com

127 130 I heard you the 1st time and you were ignored. Now I am here to tell you, you were ignored.
Why do you repeat? do you think no one is listening to you? Are you paid to repeat?

If you think you were being bullied, what is the correct responce the world would accept?

If your responce to being bullied is to bully yourself, then who are you?????
Someone that believes in revenge?
Someone that does not know how to forgive? or thinks that forgiving is wrong?

As a decsendant of the peoples of the Isles I weep for what the kingdom has become... and your future. You are a kingdom of little girls living in a world of men. These Dark Age men observe your pampered, guilt-ridden, nihilistic, self-centered existence and see opportunity for conquest. These men are certain about their beliefs and their right to conquer you. You are certain of your inferiority.

The kingdom's military has demonstrated that it can no longer protect it's own warriors, let alone civilians. Your elites accommodate enemies within while surrendering the sovereignty of the kingdom to enemies abroad.

Despise and blame America if it comforts you. It will not save you from your future. Your grandchildren will grovel at the feet of warlords that Alfred would have fought to the death.

I mourn the passing of Britannia.

I am very troubled by all the posts from people who appear to think the RN should be operating in the Gulf with a hair trigger response. Very possibly HMS Cornwall could have annihilated the Iranian force (perhaps with heavy casualties among the RN/RM boarding party as well as the Iranians). But, to what end? Who thinks it is the British or any other interest to start a shooting war in the Gulf? How could the resulting debacle then be descalated and normal trading and other commerce in that region be re-established? What numbers of civilian casualties and other collateral damage might result from such a conflict if it could not be contained? And all because the local commanders had wanted to play "Gun fight at the OK corral"? In my view, the boarding party and the Commodore on HMS Cornwall acted most properly and responsibly in the circumstances. The commander of the boarding party particularly appears to have acted in the best traditions of the service by following his rules of engagement and accepting detention as an alternative to perhaps starting a pointless war. Certainly, the result is a bit of comic opera. But better that than a requiem mass for hundreds or thousands.

#80 Thatscottishwoman

This means you are leaving from the forum. The Scotsman is finally removing you? This is good since your posts have no value, truth nor intelligent substance.

#132 Where in the hell is dar al-harb.Just curious.

#96 michael.
It is people like you that has lost the backbone of this country.Any one who talks about underpants really has no answer to the question.I see that you are south of the border,perhaps this is why we as a country want to go independent.

This disgusting Iranian régime has been a nuisance and a menace to civilisation too long. It is about time our timorous government got proactive. Instead of stripping money from our overburdened armed forces to pay Brown-voting bureaucrats, we should take the initiative in Iran and foment and support insurgency there against their Islamist government.

The biggest threat that our servicemen face at present is from Gordon Brown and the MoD.

#80 TSW Don't take guy to heart,your posts are interesting and thought provoking.Peace to you.

#92--gobbler--"the best way to be left alone is to scare those that wish you harm"....i agree!

this is what scared A,jad into releasing the 15/Brits.

www.kentimmerman.com/news/2007_04_04nm-nimitz.htm

www.kentimmerman.com/ you'll find solid stories here....

Good game and the Brits won! I am with the Americans watching the back door.

#109 Roon, I'm glad to see you've chilled out a bit mate. Yes, you have the right to say what you said, just not on this forum as it breaks the rules.

Appreciate the clarification and agree with you about SOME of the Americans on this forum. I just don't think you have to be so rude and tar them all with the same brush as you did. There's plenty other ways of putting them down without stooping so low with such verbal abuse;-)

For a start, Iran hasn't really done anything to anyone yet so how it is a "nuisance and a menace to civilisation too long" I will never know, unless you have just watched 300 and have been swayed by that. The only lot stomping about the world up to no good are us lot. And to say that Iran has been funding Iraqi insurgency is probably true but its no worse than our funding of the Afghan/Russian war.

2nd the Prisoners were just that, prisoners. Not hostages or captives. Soldiers apparently in foreign waters, the truth we will never know. Why they were there we will also never know, not been many reports of Iraqi insurgency out in the sea so I am assuming that they were up to no good in Iranian water they were just to bloody stupid to watch their backs and got caught.

80. thatscottishwoman

Do your rules also apply to Djookers when he leaves 1 line rude comments to other posters? Or when many other liberal poster leave one or 2 line comments with fould language?

80. thatscottishwoman

Look at Djookers comment at 143, it falls under all your definitions of a Troll yet you look the other way when it comes to him, why?

146.
Just a clarification.
It is widely known in Israel that the attack on Lebanon was pre-planned.
Quote from Nasrallah on Lebanese TV:

"We did not think, even one per cent, that the capture would lead to a war at this time and of such magnitude,"

Telegraph.co.uk

There is something inherently odd about all of this and its portrayal in the media.
This One situation has got many people blindly riled up for the prospect of war against Iran..

All it will take is one more event for the "justification" of an attack against the high value targets. An accidental war is highly likely to inevitable.
The question is when..

#148, am I missing something here but how could #80 look the other way when it comes to #143?

Her comment was made 6 hours before that of #143 so, unless she has a time machine that would be pretty difficult.

#146, don't you think it is possible that Iraq was invaded as a result of 9/11 by those who were part of the "something must be done" brigade? After Afghanistan, they didn't have any other country that they could legitimately target so they went for the next best thing (a country that had nothing to do with the terrorists of 9/11 but nevertheless had one as their leader).

Freemont Ca.(146) I don't know why you Bush haters are so stuck on the idea that Bush linked Iraq to 9/11. It didn't happen except in the minds of lib reporters and bloggers. Bush referred to Iraq as a growing threat. This threat was perceived long before Bush took office(read some of the assesments made during the Clinton years). After Sept 11; all of these things took on a different light.Everyone thought that Iraq either had or were seeking these weapons (I sometimes think even Sadam thought he had them). As for the documentary you viewed; it wasn't put out by Soros was it? Tell a lie often enough...........

When we liberals criticize our country's leaders, not the country, it is out of love. The enemies will do what they will do.We cannot stifle ourselves for their opinions.Sen.Clinton, by the way did the right thing in showing the Syrian clown that we all stand behind the administrations policy against his regime.She let him know that Israel would have a peace treaty with him, if he acted properly-he is the state. The administration otherwise is pretty much inept. It did not care to know how to win and is obdurate in wanting to keep troops there much longer. We honot those decent 45 marines and sailors. I find idiotic those who criticize them like Jake Jacobs. Blair handled diplomacy well in this situation. May the 15 all do even better now!

I can not believe anyone would question what the Moslem would is up to. You can look to Africa, Europe, Asia, etc. Anywhere in the world and they are causing some kind of terror or war. My thinking is if they want to believe the way they do then go to Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc and practice your beliefs. Stop forcing your problems and your insanity on the rest of the world. They are out to kill every person and nation that does not worship like they do. This is what they are doing as far as the Taliban and Al Quada. They are fanatics and have got to be stopped. They are causing unrest in the entire world.

149:
What do you think he would've said? "We were really hoping for a major invasion and got just that."??

"We did not think, even one per cent, that the capture would lead to a war at this time and of such magnitude,"

152: Had we actually focused all of our efforts on Afghanistan there might actually be stability in that country at least. Who knows? We might even have found Bin Laden. We were perfectly justified going into Afghanistan and the world agreed with us. Instead of finishing the job, re-building a truly stable government there and possibly even winning some hearts-and-minds we instead invaded Iraq. Let's not forget that this is the 2nd time in recent history that the US has done a botched job in Afghanistan. The first time we were arming, training and supporting Bin Laden against the USSR. We had a chance to actually help re-build Afghanistan that time also but instead left the country in ruins so the Taliban could take it over. Sound familiar?

If the US were actually interested in removing thugs from power we'd go after North Korea! *Actual* WMD. Attrocities that make Hussein look like the poster-boy for world peace. But then there's that nasty 1-million strong army to go up against....

Julian @ 152

The "terrorist" that was removed from power & subsequently brutally & obscenely murdered proved to be a much greater leader of that country than anything that has been in charge since....

Islamic fanatics are back in charge now - women now have no rights at all - they are brutalised for being "innapropriately" attired in public -
Still B&B swear it's a better place for having a democratically elected government -

For how much longer are they going to allowed to get away with their lies and their henious war crimes?

Thank you Wini,

Djookers has always been one of the attack dogs for the left whether he was using that ID or Mine’s an 80 bob, or various other names. I'm not saying the right does not have atttack dogs either but Djookers never lets up.

I’m glad you had the courage to say something as he has been a trouble maker for several months now. Hopefully his handlers won’t retaliate by throwing you under the bus as they say.

#153 Gobbler, I agree that nearly everyone thought that Saddam had or harboured a latent desire to get these weapons.

But, we had 2 options:-
(1) Increase the weapons inspectors to further verify that no weapons existed and that no attempts were being made to re-acquire them.

(2) Invade the country which at the very least was going to lead to the deaths of thousands of innocent people but which actually led to half a million dead, the start of a civil war between sunnis and muslms and the complete discrediting of the UN and international law.

I suggest possibly number one as the better option.

number 75 thatscottishwoman I think you are right im against war i think the sailors were brave the stuff they did stopped their being another war i think thats good. Iasked my uncle about trolls he is a computer man and he said you are right and told me how to spot them he said they just try to stop people talking about things they dont like no one should talk to them. thanx

Jonboy # 158, I think we have gone from having an evil terrorist in power who slowly brutalised his people over a number of years to having a benign, ineffective regime in charge, overseeing evil terrorists in the form of insurgents, religious fanatics and corrupt police officers.

Take your choice.

I had not heard of the Taliban type suppresion of women. That's something new.

Julian :

Check out:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticl...

Gobbler,

I certainly don't hate Bush. I just don't think he's fit to run the country. There is a big difference.

Just to mention,The number of people killed by murder in the continental u.s.in one year is roughly double the number of americans killed in Iraq in 4 years.

#154--Skeptic--"Sen. clinton, by the way did the right thing in showing the syrian clown that we all stand behind the administrations policy against his regime".....please! when & where did this happen??

"she let him know that Israel would have a peace treaty w/him, if he acted properly-he is the state"...again!! please! when & where did this happen???

#163 a true statement.

#167 I think he is talking about pelosi's illeal foriegn policy move.

They are SOLDIERS thars what there paid for, no good complaining "if they are"and Idoubt they are.
Media hyp can make it tougher for anyone else caught , tell the story if you must but leave out the Dianna Spencer dramatics

#161 Sandy

"there are "liberal elitists" on these fora that want only "like minded" posting"

Funny thing is, I only see one group combing back posts, systematically targetting someone for deletion and persecution in an effort to have him removed from the boards and that is a right-wing group.

You can't have much confidence in your position if you have to remove dissenting voices. I am surprized that you don't address this. If only a fraction of the time and energy had been spent tracking down the troll who was making all of the sexual references and posting detailed descriptions of sexual practices. Alas, I haven't seen it donw. I suppose that was alright, though, since that person was attacking left-wing posters?

Gobbler,
You may technically be correct that the Administration didn't come right out and claim that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, but they certainly didn't do much to dispel that thinking.

I found this quote among many regaring this topic. This one from the Christian Science Monitor which is hardly a left-wing media outlet. It just isn't FOX.

By Linda Feldmann | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
WASHINGTON – In his prime-time press conference last week, which focused almost solely on Iraq, President Bush mentioned Sept. 11 eight times. He referred to Saddam Hussein many more times than that, often in the same breath with Sept. 11

Now if that kind of speach isn't designed to make a connection in the minds of the public, what is?

Nomad # 129 I love your sense of humor..It is so needed with some of these postings. I don't know how you affect anyone else..but you brighten my day with a giggle.

Julian(#160) How many more years were we going to wait for the U.N. to enforce their resolutions on Iraq? It would have been much better if we could have gotten more of the membership to enforce them. However; as we have learned, some members had financial dealings with Sadam that they didn't want to lose.Nothing was going to be done to haul in Iraq and as I have said before.....after 9/11,everything changed. Waiting for U.N. action no longer was the smart thing to do. If you want to blame someone for this mess - look no farther than the U.N.

Freemont CA is correct in 173 - the government & conspiracy theorists in the media have created propaganda to help gullible people think that Iraq was mixed up in 911 or AlQuaeda, etc. Read these links on the subject.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007...

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0704/S00138.htm

and then there's the 911 conspiracy theories that are also manufactured by the same crowd. Here's a link that debunks those.

http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/04/0...

and in New York Times yesterday there was a big editorial on guantanamo.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/06/opinion/06fri1.html?_r=...

my apologies to all semi-evolved monkeys who watch tv. but when you seek the truth you must look at different points of view in order to discern such truth. and normally you have to have the discipline to actually read. and when you do this you will find controversy.

#172--Bikewoman--i will not debate this with you, for i have been one who has taken some to task for there abusive posts & many were "right wingers".
Karmen @147 & 148 is correct.

Freemont(173) there you go again....taking someones account of what and how something was said. Its ok to take such things into account; but woudn't you prefer to have heard the speach yourself so that you could form your own opinion of what was said and maybe even what was meant? Too often, people form opinions based upon what someone else reports and that seldom comes across without a personal opinion

#175 Gobbler, if you check the history you would find that the UN were enforcing resolutions on Iraq. Yes, it's true that the inspectors were thrown out but they were let back in late 2002 when the pressure mounted on Saddam. They had found no WMD for several years and those they had found had been destroyed. Bush and Blair were trying to get Saddam on a technicality because the records of those purchased and those destroyed didn't add up. There were serious proposals in the UN to treble the number of inspectors which would have gone through. Instead, B & B decided it would be a better idea to invade the country causing the deaths of thousands etc. etc.

171. Djookers

You have to admit the Karmen was being funny with the Simpsons comment, obviously you took her comment out of context. You have to look at all the previous posts, why did you not mention that in a previous post Flanders changed another posters location to a word I can't repeat but it means a bowel movement. You really need to put things in perspective here. So when you compare little Karmen mentioning the Simpsons compared to what Flanders said you do not have a leg to stand on.

Leon The amazeing thing of democracy is that you are able to say what you want.

This democracy has been and will in the future be defended by the very armed forces you so wrongly have a Low opinion of

it should have been scottish troops they would have given the good old glasgow kiss and bobs your uncle and fannys your aunt

How petty can you be? I'm sure you would have claimed to be in their waters, instead of being killed!Let alone do 7 yrs. in prison! BLAIR AND BUSH LIE ALMOST EVERY WAKING HOUR OF EVERYDAY, ABOUT EVERYTHING; RATHER IT CONCERNS THEM OR NOT--AND BECAUSE THESE MEN AND ONE WOMAN-SAVED THEIR OWN LIVES WITHOUT ANY HELP FROM THE BRITS IT'S A BAD THING? THEY DID NOT KILL ONE PERSON-B&B- DO DAILY; THEY DID NOT STEAL-B&B DO DAILY;THEY DID NOT START THIS WAR-B&B DAILY ARE QUESTIONED ABOUT THEIR AGENDAS.
In case people are wondering why this was done, it's to let ALL people know they can do what they want when they want. In this case they spared the lives of the 15 hostages-and what do they come home to? A LOT of petty bs-especially by BLAIR! Now, if that doesn't give these men and woman the idea to get out of the service nothing will. Iran somehow was able to NOT let B & B get to them -all I can say is we are not safe, anywhere; and thanks to B & B at anytime. It's a very sad time when 2 "Power House" government leaders cannot rescue 15 people themselves, instead other governments and former presidents have to do it. Wake up, we are sick of this war! We are tired of losing our men and women for B &B's war! Guns, missles and rockets are NOT the answer to everything although the "right" wing thinks so! How can they be so "right" when they are always so wrong?!

#12. J.K.
"... i think Gobbler would best fit your definition of a "guantanamo apologist".

You lost me there. What definition are you on about? Would that be part of my now missing comment #9? The entire content of which I don't altogether remember anyway at this remove. It has been taken out by some craven donkey who apparently does not like a view contrary to his/her own. Let me guess who the culprit was. You have done this cowardly thing before, J.K., so go fly your kite elsewhere.

Your (#20) response to #16 Lynne, USA, makes as little sense as most of your utterances: "I did not call anyone an apologist. Angus Lyndsey [at least get the spelling right when you accuse, you dunce] incorrectly labelled an anti-gitmo poster as a "guantanamo apologist".

For your information, Mr Nasty, I have no knowledge of your allegation since, as mentioned above, my post at #9 has mysteriously disappeared. Too close to the truth eh? Easy to accuse when the evidence has conveniently been rendered invisible. Nice try, but ultimately pathetic.

#16. Lynne has your card correctly marked: "JK...anyone who does not agree with you is an apologist for whatever the theme of the day is."

#140
"#92--gobbler--"the best way to be left alone is to scare those that wish you harm"....i agree!
this is what scared A,jad into releasing the 15/Brits.
www.kentimmerman.com/news/2007_04_04nm-nimitz.htm
www.kentimmerman.com/ you'll find solid stories here...."

Sandy - maybe this did scare the Iranians into releasing the hostages, but the link also suggests that the reason for taking the hostages in the first place was the Iranians being scared of an invasion/attack and trying to pre-empt it. This rather negates your point and shows the danger of sabre rattling. Also, this link suggests the main motivation for decision making with Ayatollah is maintenace of power, hardly the motive of a regime seeing martyrdom, which again undermines the way the Iranian regime is being portrayed.

#197 that should be "maintenance" and "seeking"

# 8 Scullion

In the interest of clarity would you query the International Red Cross and let us know what their opinion of the conditions at Gitmo are?

Consider the following -

Bush is featured on news today arrogantly telling Congress it is none of their business to approve the war funding and he's telling them that they're trying to do the generals jobs for them. But it is Bush who has consistently rejected the advice of many generals from the beginning of this war. at turn of year he fired the top 2 generals in middle east, Casey & Abizad, because both publicly said that his 'surge' policy was not a good idea and would only result in more casualties. Now the surge is implemented and it has resulted in more casualties. and then Bush criticizes Congress in this way. But it is congress' job to decide how all money is spent. and if they decide that the war should not be funded, then Bush is to serve their desire or else be disloyal to the Constitution. What else is new? Bush is a tyrant.

and then consider also, the legislation that Bush is complaining about and was made at direction of the Democrats has in it provisions that put great pressure on Iraq to pass the new law concerning oil industry - which means Democrats & Republicans both are working together to help some oil companies loot Iraq of their oil.

#199 Drill Team,

Sweeeeeet! Thanks for the heads up. Gotta get me one of those orange ones!

#197 The first impression of the iranains motives is and was as a barganing chip in the growing pressure on them re the nuclear issue.
Add to this Iran being so factionlised it could well be ambitouse elements in the republican guard trying to gain a internal/external advantage

#196 Not ironic, tragic

16. Lynne,

Hey can you explain why Dick Chenney continues to speak to gatherings and tell them IRAQ had and has WMD.

Aside from the fact his old company is moving HQ to Dubai and every month he is paid $16000 from Haliburton. Is it surprizing that this sad axample of a VP is delusional.

For what they conived and the terrible consequences that resulted and still ongoing.
Both Bush and Chenney should be tried for WAR crimes.

Politicians like B & C make me ashamed to be an American.

Galactic Cannibal

#200
No, get the "jocks" out. We've lost too many too often fighting other people's wars.

I'm really fed up with the continuous anti-American comments that you people love to write. Nothing but venomous hatred for the USA and everything American.
I visited Scotland in 1977 and found the people warm and friendly, but going by what I read here, that seems to no longer be the case. I was planning to visit again next year, but I'm afraid we'd be met with rudeness and hostility. I've cancelled my plans to visit and think we'd be better off staying home.
The USA has been Great Britain's closest ally since WWI, but apparently you Bush-haters all think you'd be better offf without us. Too bad. Maybe if you took your heads out of your arses for a moment, you might see that not all the world's problems are our fault.

#21 Please dont make the mistake of takeing the post made by some as the opinion of the average scot far from it.
Thousands of Americans and other visit Scotland and are treated with freindship and warmth.

some of the anti american posts are in fact sadly from the US itself for some reason.

Hey Wally,
How many actual US military folk have you spoken with to come up with your information? Since you obviously have no clue as to what the funding reduction for the war would mean, let me give it to you straight, from numerous enlisted Marines and officers I know from living close to Camp Pendleton.

The Democratic proposed cuts for the war budget does not mean anyone comes home early. It is the opposite. The soldiers have already been told that they will be required to stay longer, including at least one additional rotation, if the cuts go through. Cutting funding does not equal early withdrawal.

Also, from communicating with people on the front lines (you should try this sometime - there are plenty of soldiers that would communicate with you via email and even send you pictures of the GOOD that is going on in Iraq), the surge IS working.

Have mistakes been made by Bush in the war? Ofcourse. Do I like all he has done - not even close. Did Clinton cause more damage than good to our intelligence services and military by reducing the military spending to the lowest levels EVER as a % of GDP. You bet. Are we suffering because of it? Absolutely.

Is this about the oil? Duh. Do you realize what would happen if we all left the Middle East? Things would be a lot worse than you worrying about a $3.50/gallon charge for petrol. Oil runs the world. I assume you don't ride a bicycle to work in Arizona.

Please be rational. I get so tired of the leftist liberal garbage that comes from the media. Speak to some people who are actually involved and get a dose of what really is going on.

Buy a Marine a lunch sometime (I do all the time), thank them for what they do, and ask for some objective feedback. THEN, come back and tell us what you learned.

#205
All of this is directed against me, and for reasons I do not know. I am an American writer who writes for an International think tank- I am very concerned about womens rights, religious freedom, etc. especially in the middle east. I am pro-Israel. I am anti UN until they get their act together and condemn Sharia Law.
Thatscottishwoman frequently deletes my posts because I correct the enormous amount of misleading information she inserts.
I have never and will not report Djookers.
I have asked for a link that was extreme anti-semitic of Thatscottishwomans be removed. She is exytremely anti-semitic, which I learned is tolerated in the UK- It is not tolerated in America. She has waged battle with me so I reported her to the Scotsman, but I did not ask her to be removed.
There.
I am going back to be sneezing to be relieved by a medicinal euphoria

#102
whats your preceptory,?

#114

Once again IWright accuses others of what he does himself. The cause of the present troubles in the Gulf are the Islamofascists. Here's what you wrote:

"The response to any problem involving muslim countries is to bomb any muslim country. Islam = "Islamofascism" and a red mist descends."

You are the one who said "Islam = "Islamofascism" not any posters. As some of us have pointed out, it was a few short years ago that we witnessed you sitting by watching the Serbs butcher their moslem minority in Kosovo and we saw scenes reminiscent of WW II with displaced peasants with their pitiful belongings and donkey drawn carts, burning villages and slaughtered people. Where were you, you hypocritical nincompoop? Looking the other way and hoping the whole thing would disappear so you wouldn't be exposed as cowardly laggards.

The only thing you Europeans could agree on was that the biggest problem was an "increasingly isolationist American foreign policy.

That's right, that's all you could come up with in the way of a collective response to atrocities being committed against moslems in your own backyard. We we finally did intervene, after being bitterly criticized for taking to much time, would you care to guess what happened? Within a month of the commencement of the air campaign to support the Kosovo moslems, the streets of Europe were crowded with protesters railing against "American Imperialism." Sheesh! Make up your minds will you?

#215.
I agree 100%. There are plenty of American haters (most left wing Americans hate everything, including themselves - their general nature of never being happy). I have plenty of Scot friends. Now, do they tackle me a little harder in rugby sometimes - oh yeah!

Carolyn:
The Scot Woman complains about everything, and plays dumb when confronted with facts.

There are plenty of friendly Scots. Ignore her.

#215 - Thistledhu
As far as the anti-American comments coming from the US, my advice is that there are planes leaving the US to hundreds of destinations in other countries every day. Those anti-American Americans might want to consider hopping one, and getting the hell out.
If you all are so unhappy with the US, PLEASE LEAVE!

#224 Yep can see your point but you in the us are the same inas we in scotland. we live in a democracy. this has bred a breed of people who take objection to how we maintian democracy and national intrest.

if you dont like Bush if you dont like Blair fine thats your right and remember that next election.
Its called democracy something they dont have in Iran and something the Iranains are trying to prevent Iraq from haveing.

It allways amazes me that those in our society who shout about freedom and rights the most are the same who oppose the provision of the same freedoms for others

There is an attitude which is going to get the industrialised nations into VERY deep water before long if it doesn't change very quickly:

"If things got really bad, the USA carrier groups could have opened up and literally turned Iran into rubble. As our cousins say - go figure."

And as I figure:
Just one thing. - So Iran and Iraq can be turned to rubble, just as could the entire Middle East in a Third World War.
... Is that scenario SO impossible?
Then WHICH countries could still survive without oil from the Middle East?

... We are not dealing with poor African countries with deserts and a a few date palms in quite the same way, are we? I wonder why not.
I get the feeling it might be a good time for the world to wake up and see what is REALLY going on.

- Jane Standley and the BBC's catastrophic "Cock-Up" over the live reporting of the collapse of WTC Building 7, 23 minutes before it actually did, is just ONE symptom that something is going drastically wrong. The BBC refuses to name the SOURCE of that news point blank; just as if Jane Standley in a fit of caprice and confusion thought she might have been 8 hours back in time with the collapse of the Twin Towers.

Iraq and Iran may be Twin Towers of a different kind; deep down in their basements their is black liquid gold that greedy, itching, twitching fingers are after ... That's how kidnapped sailors came to be nosing about those shores hardly knowing what they were even there for.

#233 Makes Sense

I am not in the habit of answering questions or posts directed at other people. Why don't you go ahead and ask Thatscottishwoman.

#34 - So, which 'nation state' acted with more civility? (Iran vs. Abu Ghraib) Coming late to your post --
These Abu Ghraib-ers were rogues, tried and convicted.

Of course, it's more compassionate to show a beheading as opposed to a pile of naked bodies????

# 209 GC

He's probably referring to the fact the the Iraqis rained chemical weapons down on the Iranians and then on the Kurds.

234. Brightraven, Barcelona

At last, an answer. I said that if the Iranian capture escalated: If things got really bad, the USA carrier groups could have opened up and literally turned Iran into rubble. As our cousins say - go figure.

You figured that if Iran and Iraq could be rubbled, so could the Middle East in WW3. Absolutely right; but with the neutron bomb just the people could be rubbled and the infrastructure left intact - a neocon dream, oil saved, opposition eliminated.

But what about the aggrieved people who were left? You would really see some terrorism then - big time thermonuclear war with the whole planet being rubbled and all the people in it

You are right it is time for the world to wake up and see what is REALLY going on.

We are on the edge of a precipice, and it is time to stop murdering people so you can steal their land and resources. Bush, Blair and the idiots who support them and vote them in, take note before it's too late.

#240 Bill, England

Hard to convince the world that you are not on an expansionist quest to control the entire middle east when you are aggitating to attack a third country because a handful of Saudis carried out a terrorist attack...

#241 handfull of saudi,s ??

#242 Thistledhu

15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia...

241. Bikewoman

Right. There is only a fleeting connection between the Saudi outlaws and the western thirst for oil and land, but any excuse will do it seems.

Looking at these fora, it is surprising how many people believe the lies the Bush and Blair and their like put out.

# 241 BW,

If we were on an expansionist quest, then why don't we just take what we want? We could if we wanted to. That's a pretty good indication that we're not, "on an expansionist quest to control the entire middle east."

If we wanted to control the entire middle east the way, say, Britain controlled India for several hundred years, or controls Northern Ireland today, we could do it and no one could stop us and you know it.

Please tell the posters here, since you are interested in "expansionist quests" how is it that the population of Scotland expanded to the west, to an island not its own and is STILL THERE!! When you bagpipeheads get out of Ireland maybe we'll listen to what you have to say. Until then, button it.

i hardley think terrorist attacks on the UK and the US are excuses they are the cause of this state of affairs

#241 BW

Madam, my sincere apology. I had you mixed up with TSW. My bad.

one reason Northern Ireland is still In the UK DEMOCRACY one person one vote

246. Thistledhu, fife

And what caused the terrorist attacks? Terrorist attacks from Israel, USA and UK, that's what. Sow - reap.

Bill ... I am over in Spain ... DID the BBC "Cock-Up" actually hit your mainstream media a month ago? ... The fact that Jane Standley, on live satellite link to London reported that WTC Building 7 had collapsed when it was clearly visible behind her head through the window?
DID you hear how the BBC says it lost ALL ITS 9/11 FOOTAGE when it was confronted after this hidden footage came to light 4 weeks ago?

Really when did us/ Britain attack suadi arabia or the bin laden construction Empire ?

#246 Thistledhu

Then we should be attacking Saudi Arabia, the country that produced the majority of these terrorists (including Bin laden). But instead, our governments are agitating to attack a third country completely not implicated in the attacks.

attacking a third country / who

Check it out here, Bill:
http://www.wtc7.net/bbc.html

This is worth pondering over, for sure!
The implications are INCREDIBLE!

#6 Alice S.

I have not bothered to read any other comments other than yours. You disgust me!

It takes a damn sight more guts to leave that safety catch on and think of the big picture of your actions in the heat of the moment than flick it off and put your own preservation to the foremost. I applaude them all for their restraint and am happy they are home.

Alice, open your eyes!!

#253 Thistledhu

Well we are in Afghanistan, which incidently is going to the dogs because we have pulled so many resources away from it. Then we are in Iraq, although it looks like Britain is pulling out. And now the US and UK are agitaing to get into Iran. Syria will be next of they get their way on this. And surprise surprise, it all follows the NPAC gameplan for the region.

216 Maxwell:

I'm not shilling for Democrats. I rarely tune into tv.

There's no good purpose for the war. If the US butted its nose out of Afghanistan, Somalia & Iraq then oil would flow in larger quantities than it would otherwise. All 3 of those countries have lots of oil. One of the purposes of US dominance in these countries is to limit oil production for the sake of price support.

We should respect other countries and their national sovereignty.

I was merely making the point that all the war spending that is unnecessary means that the social security payments for huge numbers of people will have to be cut. The government takes forcibly 16% from all paychecks (8% direct & 8% from employer) for those making under 80 thousand a year income. This money could go to retirement funding as it was intended originally. But 40% of that money is taken and spent on other things. Well those other things are the war funding.

It is a huge sacrifice and of no value at all to anyone.

These other nations did not attack us. all we're doing is creating enemies.

We should let the US dollar float so that our domestic industries can thrive. We should focus on producing worthwhile goods & services instead of war. We would be much better off as well as doing the right thing instead of the wrong thing.

I will agree with you though that a vote for Democrats is about the same as a vote for Republicans. very little difference.

#240, 244...Bill, England

How interesting...stealing land and resources. You (and your ilk) haven't yet figured out that the United States and the U.K. have no interest in acquiring land or resources in that backwards hellhole known as the Middle East. The residents of that part of the world truly have the mentality of six-year-olds and are far too unstable to deal with. They are easily swayed against western values and civilizations by the lowliest cleric who can scrounge up a well-armed following (such as the Mahdi Army) and can therefore not be trusted in any way. Oil is on its way out and is being replaced by alternative energy sources. Do you honestly thing that BP or Exxon would want to set up shop in Iraq, Iran, or Afghanistan knowing that tomorrow someone with a grudge against the west would blow up vital pipelines, offices, or people? It's certainly not worth the cost of establishing oil extracting and refining facilities.

Get off this kick of anti-western sentiment and get real...there are some very evil, hard-line bad guys out there who wish to kill all of us westerners because they fanatically believe in a grossly distorted version of Islam. It's a true shame...but their perverted beliefs deserve nothing less than eradication. I really believe that we have already seen the beginning of another global Christian vs. Islamic conflict and all we have done with the Middle-East warfare in the past decade is (somewhat clumsily) probe the rotting decay of Islam and exposed its departure from its initial tenets.

Lynne in 89 - thank you for reminding me about the milk.

The big companies that control our food supply are destroying our food. Raw milk that is unpasteurized and made without hormones or anti-biotics is extremely healthy and yet we are unable to get it any more. It is a crime to sell it. Back in the 1930's doctors actually treated all kinds of diseases by merely feeding people raw milk. Now they are unable to do this. The pasteurization process takes the large majority of nutrition out of the milk. It makes what was an extremely healthy super-food and turns into a marginal food.

Farmers should be able to sell raw milk and get paid for it. Here are but 2 links on this issue.

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=30293

http://www.westonaprice.org/federalupdate/aa2006/infoaler...

Also Lynne, they're doing great damage to the meat supply with female hormones pumped into the meat.

Does ANYONE ... ANYWHERE on this forum know if this story hit the mainstream media 4 weeks ago?

The implications concerning our involvement in Iran and Iraq are directly linked it would seem to me ... http://www.wtc7.net/bbc.html

#260 Wally

Not to mention the antibiotics. And of course factory farming should be criminalized but that is another topic altogether.

#237. seattlebarbie
I think you will find it impossible to argue with Finnking as his entrenched support for Islam is based on his wonderful early years of having been brought up amongst or by muslims. No contest, sad to say.

#263 Angus

That is an outrigt lie. Why don't you just restrict yourself to stating your own opinion instead of attempting to summarize someone else's (e.g. discredit someone by shoving words in his mouth). It really is beneath you Angus.

The implication is clearly that the entire world stage is being set up for World War III ... Consciously, we are all being taken there by Messrs Bush & Blair

Or am I mistaken?

Is THIS the smoking gun?

http://www.wtc7.net/bbc.html

IS this INCREDIBLE story being ignored by the mainstream media?

#264. Bikewoman
I'm tempted to say you astonish me, but from past form, you don't. Your prim assertion ...

"That is an outrigt lie. Why don't you just restrict yourself to stating your own opinion instead of attempting to summarize someone else's (e.g. discredit someone by shoving words in his mouth)."

... is utter hysterical nonsense. The "words", so to speak, came from Finnking himself. Hardly putting words in anyone's mouth, is it? You should be more circumspect before branding others, as is your wont.

#266

Typical Angus. Again: "Why don't you just restrict yourself to stating your own opinion instead of attempting to summarize someone else's."

Get it that time?

Well, looks like the homecoming heroes are selling their story for cash. I guess it's capitalism in action.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1626726.ece

#265 Brightraven

Were you able to see the clips? They have been removed from the several links on that page.

#261 First I've seen of it.Pretty interesting.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the beginning of the END.

Western society, WAKE UP! For decades the West (USA, Britain, France, Germany, Switzerland)have educated, groomed and financed those who went on to become . . . dictators, terrorist and oppressors: Mugabe, The Shah of Iran, Bin Laden (money sitting in deposited in Coutts), Saddam Hussein. . the list goes on. All in the garden isn't rosy therefore let's be grateful; the Navy personnel were allow out. It could have gone wrong and WE could be in the throws of WWIII. Well at least for now it did not happen. Messrs Bush/Blair ARE visible" script readers". What about the REAL power brokers who are INVISIBLE??

p.s. Selling their story for cash means their days in the Navy are numbered and will not be able to earn a crust of bread in future. Milk the cow now, cause it's the dole, family credit and a life on benefits in future!

All the footage can be found on YouTube and Google video ... countless copies were quickly downloaded before the authorities could do anything ... Though they tried hard.
Just punch in WTC BUILDING 7 COLLAPSE JANE STANDLEY BBC

That will get you what you need; it's REALLY shocking

Trolls

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

Gobbler (#7), it is unfortunate that you and so many people comment under stooge names. Your accusation of anti-American news source is trollism; you can't BS this fellow American on that BS. That is ALL that is "obvious". Be fair, not the Ugly American. Beyond that side trip, you have my sentiments on the terrorist menace and the belligerence shown by the Iranians towards their captured Brits.

#238 57Normad

I may not be as aged as most of the posters in this thread, but as an avid reader since childhood I love to keep some what up to date with world affairs.

I make no excuse to anyone including my self made wealthy parents for smoking and eating Hawaiian Cannabis with my equally educated friends.

So, 57nomad your answer to my post astounds me .
You must know that our countryUS holds vast quantities of chemically destructive weapons and if they say they don't , They can at short notice produce them.
So does Britiain France India etc. So your answer is a weak one.

Chenney is referring to WMD that is nuclear weapons and you know that Sir.

Its mind boggling to me as someone under 30, that the VP of our country still tells people that Saddam had, and Iraq has WMD .

The man Chenney is wickedly delusional.

How very sad for America ,which has one of the world's greatest document. Our Constitution, that I rate as Mt. Everest above the Bible or the Koran or the Jewish book.

Thank you Sir

Galactic Cannibal
and now I am going to smoke a big fat one. And like Mick Jagger get stoned.

#267. Bikewoman
Why don't you just take a hike? You have nothing to contribute but ill-thought-out single-issue bile.

Reality check ... I am a Scotsman, this is a Scottish newspaper forum. Nudge reality again ... Hijacked by American fanatics with axes to grind and no free domestic press to do so. You, lady, and your kind - not all Americans, let it be said - are so far removed from reality it defies description.

Alisa (#14), who is your enemy? Democrats or al Qaeda? Whose friend are you? What deal was worked out by Reagan before coming in to office to stall resolution of the hostages in Iran? What president presided over the Iran-Contra felonies? And, what part of our government admitting to no WMD nor al Qaeda in Iraq justifying Bush's war in Iraq do you not get? Whose foreign policy brought al Qaeda to power in Iraq?

Voldemort (#73), one last comment on Reagan. Soviet Communism was a "global threat" one which the tiny U.K. was unable to resolve your style or otherwise. Reagan presided over the dismantling and neutralization of that global threat, again via your style. I agree that we should NEVER "put the rights of a foreign suicide bomber infront of our own native people" and that there are fanatics and deviants who do just that...........partly because of the Bushes, Blairs, and their ilk putting profits infront of our own native people.

Here is the smoking gun proof you always needed that 9/11 was a total inside job.
IT COULDN'T BE CLEARER.

No ifs and buts:

http://www.wtc7.net/bbc.html

155 Wini

Threatening.

Maxwell (#216), I would rather get my information from the troops than the media. But, I suggest that you look at the concentration and identify of ownership of the media, e.g., Faux News, if you believe that the press is beholden to purveyors of "leftist liberal garbage" as so often echoing from the Right Wing Sound Machine. Also, I chose not to be a co-conspirator in your war for oil: "Is this about the oil? Duh. Do you realize what would happen if we all left the Middle East? Things would be a lot worse than you worrying about a $3.50/gallon charge for petrol. Oil runs the world." Any government official perpetuating this evil program should be impeached and pilloried.

119 Aoda

Long time since we crossed. The media here are right-leaning, if not toppling over to the right. Take a look through Media Matters for America. Nice little online newsletter, which exposes the may right-wing misinformers in the media.

http://www.mediamatters.org

Would you happen to know of a similar site that exposes left-wing bias? I have sought an honest one, but have had no luck.

#279
Really ... "smoking gun proof"? Please don't delude yourself in this age of video and computerised simulation. The burden of proof is on you and other misguided souls.

The world knows what happened. Yours and others' attempts to cheapen a tragedy of immense proportion only serves to illuminate what idiots you and your gullible ilk are. Shame on you.

#276 Angus

Clearly you are laboring under the delusion that I care what you think of me. I really could care less. Cheers.

re 153

Google: Bush Iraq 9/11

The google: Iraq "mushroom clouds"

There are so many that choosing a few links wouldn't do the question justice.

#284. Bikerwoman
Darling I love you really ...! Oh christ I have much work to do today, and this embittered embattlement is not helping. Now you behave yourself BW and give me some peace for the rest of today.

263 Angus Lindsay

I have never read a post by Finnking suggesting he was raised by Moslems. To the best of my recollection he has stated that he is a Scot, ethnically and naturally; and I believe he said he was raised and educated in Scotland.

#286 Angus

Sorry to hear you have so much to do. We don't need to quarrel. Go get your stuff done and we'll chat another day. I won't add to your woes.

As for me, it's time to call it a day. Night and Happy Easter.

brightraven in 261:

that story you linked to is one I was certainly familiar with. did it get to mainstream media - I don't know, I don't tune in.

I believe that the evidence is strong that BBC did for some reason report the collapse of WTC 7 before it happened. The mayor of New York city Guilliani (whose father was mafia enforcer) told a New York journalist that they were going to bring the building down purposely before they did. and policemen with mega-phones were telling citizens that they were going to bring it down before they did. Meaning of course the authorities themselves have even admitted that the building was pre-wired for demolition prior to September 11, 2001. Perhaps BBC heard that it was going to be demolished and mistakenly reported that it had been demolished. But then after being caught doing this BBC says they 'lost' their archives on this. and that doesn't happen.

here is an excellent article about WTC 7.

http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/04/0...

263 Angus & Alec in chicago:

finnking has said that when he grew up in Scotland there were muslims that he personally knew, perhaps in his neighborhood, and as a result he is sympathetic to Muslims. that is all. he's never said he favors muslim conquest of europe as implied by Angus.

BrightRaven in 265:

There are a LOT of incredible stories completely ignored by media. the one you linked to is not nearly as incredible as MANY others.

You can't be a professional journalist in the US certainly and actually have a good career if you want to report the news. they won't let you. here are just 2 links along those lines.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/emailmedia

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/9-11_wtc_media.html

#287. Alec in Chicago
and
#289. Wally, Arizona
Check with Finnkng hinself. Go on guys, do it and let the man hinself reveal the truth which you are both patently unaware or disbelieving of. (Not "implied" by me, Wally, but stated as stated by the man hinself.)

#288. Bikewoman
Thank you dear. Now let's call a truce and let these other nasty people verbally annihilate themselves.

In your post, 209, you asked the following question,

"Hey can you explain why Dick Chenney continues to speak to gatherings and tell them IRAQ had and has WMD."

I answered, #238,

"He's probably referring to the fact the the Iraqis rained chemical weapons down on the Iranians and then on the Kurds."

To which you answer,

"So, 57nomad your answer to my post astounds me"

How's that?

Brightraven, Barcelona...are you sure your name is not Rosie O'Donnell? All this has been debunked by Popular Mechanics. To keep repeating such garbage should be against the law. Instead you make Wally sound like a normal guy!!!

My gov't did not go about to kill its citizens inspite of what Wally or you think. I resent you saying it, as much as I resent Wally saying it. You see, he claims to be an American, but he is not. He has yet to say once, just one nice thing about the country of which he claims to be a citizen.

But most of all it demeans the deaths of almost 3,000 people. Having lost friends there I resent that, and I wish you would all stop referring to this bull as the truth...it is not.

Wally, face it..You are the number 1 conspiracist on these threads. Everything that you write I not only not believe, but half you have to laugh at.

If milk is so bad...do not drink it. Become a vegetarian, and don't eat meat...or make sure whatever meat you buy is free range or fed organically fed. That should solve your problem.

#275 GC,

I suppose it could actually be that you don't know about the Iraqi chemical weapons. In March of 1988 Saddam gassed the Kurdish town of Halabja, Iraq, killing the inhabitants.

This well known and I'm providing you a link, but all you have to do is Google "Halabja" so that you don't have to take my word for it.

It is also true that he used his chemical weapons against the Iranians during their war.

That's where the whole "WMD" thing came from, the WMD's that he was using.

#275 GC

I must have gotten a contact buzz from being down wind from Temecula or wherever it is you live, 'cause I forgot the link, here it is.

http://www.kdp.pp.se/old/chemical.html

#264 BW

That should have been i.e., not e.g.

Yes, we were humiliated, no doubt about that, but we can't blame the '15' for that, they did not have much of a chance to resist their capture, although it would have been regarded as 'heroic' had they sacreficed themselves for king & country, that however would have been a futile gesture
since it would have served no purpose other than to inflame the situation both politically and militarily.
We must however blame the Army and the Navy high command for exposing the sailors into such a position, and no doubt action will be taken.
But doubts are voices now about the stories emanting from the '15'
since they were only allowed to face the press after the had been debriefed, and mayby were instructed what to say to the press in order to minimise the embarrasment caused to the military as well as our nation.
Now they are also allowed to sell their stories to the press, earning many years their annual salary in one coupe, no doubt being obliged to embellish their stories to satisfy the press.
It would appear now that the nations embarrasment has turned into their personal fortune.
That this is being allowed in the first place reflects the decline of our country both militarily and morally.

My heart truly goes out to the British service members that were held by the Iranians. None of you could possible understand the mental strain and anguish that they were put through and the command decisions that had to be made.
I do believe that each and everyone of you need to get out from behind you computer screens and look at the real world with your own eyes.
I invite all of you to come to Iraq, I have been here for 3 1/2 years (nonmilitary), and see what you will be facing if fascist Islamist’s are not put in check. The main attitude of the moderate Islamist’s has no effect on a people that believe that their way is the only way and you will either convert or be put to death. If they kill each other in the street with disdain and zeal how do you think they would treat you?
I believe that the Iranian government, which is made up of imam’s, wants to see Iraq become an Islamic Republic just like them and will do whatever it takes.

#291- Wally, does $$$millionaire (or is it billionaire), anti-american, socialist george soros personally sign your paychecks- or do you just get paid from the move-on group?

# 296

.....and the chemical weapons used by the US in Iraq:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2049678,0...

The 15 are the sacrificial lambs in the political/corporate chessgame. They are the peons not privy to the gamemasters plans. Therefore, they were not a threat to national nor military security. I am hearing a lot of "pot calling the kettle black" remarks and clearly there are those that lack critical thinking due to their being brain-washed and conditioned into being little sheeple for those in power in their countries. The episode of the 15 is a diversion of what is actually going on which is larger than is being realized.

Speaking of who would be irresponsible or evil enough to use nuclear weapons to terrorize the world, we must look to who has used it in the past and present. The only one that comes to mind is the USA whose nuclear arsenal could destroy the world twenty times over.

We know the US, UK, Israel, Australia, and other free world countries and China, and Indonesia all used DU which is a by-product that still manifests uranium radiation and does the same job as any nuclear weapon which poisons the people and the land.

This cutting off the nose to spite the face will certainly lead to mankind's demise if we allow irresponsible leaders to wantonly use them. There are quite a few that have voiced, "Nuke 'em!" with no regard to rammifications that does not discriminate friend from foe. As Shakespeare's Prince of Verona prophetically acclaimed at the end of the play, "...ALL ARE PUNISHED!"

#300. Scottish Born American by Choice,
Iraq

In a nutshell, compadre. The Islamist agenda is kill, kill. kill. Brutally, as is their way. To the many craven apologists on this site, justify that, if you will. The Islamic philosophy of death to the infidel - that is, you and me of a western disposition - is well-known and sidestepped by those so-called moderate muslims in our midst.

Go on, apologists ... the forum is yours on which to expound.

HEY WALLY. JUST FOR YOU!! http://warm-welcome-door-mat.funnypart.com/

301 American:

George Soros is a strong supporter of New world Order. same as bush. They're on same team. just playing different roles.

I'm against New World Order, so don't lump me with them please.

It looks like to me,that it is a sad day in both the UK and USA when a fifth rate looney toons country like Iran can take your sailors and marines captive and stick a finger in your eye,while our leaders Timid Tony Blair and Whiner in Chief Liar George W Bush and Vice Liar Draft Dodger Delusional Dick Cheney hide in fear of a Iranian Mad Man,too gutless and cowardly to respond with force to their captive! So
looks like "Brittania No Longer Rules The Waves,"
and Neither does the US Navy and US Marine Corp,
the Brit Skipper of HMS Cornwall Ought To Be
Court-martialed for Cowardice in the face of the Enemy and Total Incompetence and Failure to protect his own sailors and marines!

Hey Wally you need help. You station in life is even worse that an illegal immigrant, who cannot take full advantage of the rewards available to a US resident because of their illegality and/or inability to speak the language. Your position in life is rendered even more dismal than that illegal immigrant because you are totally consumed by hate of those about you, the Democratic political process and as such have made yourself a prisoner in your own county. You are further handicapped because you have never done anything, seen anything, had responsibilities with experience limited to the involuntary breathing process before a monitor and keyboard and the occasional calls to nature. You continually denigrate the US military and most recently with ludicrous statement that the US military routinely captures and holds children, (That Post Removed) completely ignoring the recent bombings that used two children as decoys to pass a check point and then left in the vehicle and blown up. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070320203409.spj8...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/...
No one could be so stupid as to not be aware of and consider that except for a paranoid schizophrenic and/or deliberate facilitator of events against his alleged country.

Wally In addition, the children are taught to be martyrs in that culture. If the US were really holding a 9 year old it is a good bet if they were, they were saving that young life and I know from experience GI’s carry sweats and chocolates for the kids. I know from experience and, candy was the care package request from my Iraq bounty aviation associates so they could provide the children candy bombs and did so in the remotest and neediest locations. You are a jerk Wally. You do not even know those who live around you Wally. It’s just hate and more hate. In Vietnam 2 and 3 year olds, put hand grenades in gas tanks and in Somalia women and children led attacks on US military personal. They knew that good quality/ETHICS of the US GI and used it to their advantage but you are filled with hate and cannot admit that the US GI’s would hesitate to fire at the women and children. To hesitate is to loose the advantage and die. Again, your lack of experience surfaces and your knowledge of the difficulties of war is as atrocious again as you slam bush for having, gasp, 2 generals in Iraq. Lincoln had SIX and many insisted Lincoln sack Grant because he drank too much whiskey and Lincoln told those condemning Grant to drink the same whiskey and maybe he would finally have some more Generals beside Grant that could and would fight. There were 650,000 KIA’s equaling 3% of the US population in that war and between 47,000 and 52,0000 were killed at Gettysburg.

Lynne in 295:

it is no surprise you're opposed to freedom of speech.

http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/04/0...

here's another copy of that link I provided above that you were interested in. This is an excellent article that addresses actual substance that was widely reported in the mainstream news. The footnotes are all right there in the article. If you want to discuss that issue with me please speak to specific points in that article and then I can respond.

I think that respect for the sept 11 victims means that you take a hard look at the crimes committed and try to figure out who the culprits were behind it. and then punish the guilty parties.

Wally
Your paranoid schizophrenia is so involved any hint or suggestion that supports your illusions incites you to be utterly obsessed and convinced of a fact while your delusions of intellectual grandeur permit you to conceptualize your self as the final Alpha and Omega of the world’s knowledge, positions, and policies. Moreover, those that dare challenge your conclusions are arrogant, ignorant, gullible, etc and you fire those adjectives from that lofty position with a mental hallucination output keyboard and monitor in your illusionary sky.
Wally you are the Theodore Kaczynski (UnaBomber) of the Scotsman form. Get Help..
Get psychological counseling and/or psychological medication and retreat to your shack in the bottom of the Grand Canyon and leave the things that need attending to those of us with experience and reason. Get that help before you become the Wally Wallacynsky of the web…..
http://paulcooijmans.lunarpages.com/psy/unabomber.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-20954312.html

Hate is consuming you. Be done.. Leave it to us who can fix it....

#296 57 Normand

WMD are understood to be nuclear devices.
But multiple countries possess chemical weapons including ours.
When used depend on the direction of the blowing wind. The gas can kill the people who realese it ,if they are suddendly caught down wind.

In WWI and WWII gas was used and it killed both sides as the wind changed.

The inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had no chance and the pilots of the Enola Gay flew back home after incenerating approx 220,000 Japanese civilians.
They dropped WMDs and we are the only copuntry in human history to excute people in this fastion.

99.99% of people listening to D Chenney understand he is referring to nuclear weapons. Apparently you fit the 0.01%.
Remember Blair's speel about a 45 minute launch ready by Saddam.
So you can trawl all the web sites in Google but only one will macth the WMD and that's nuclear. And we used it nuclear against civilians..

Dick Chenney suffers from acute delusion, but he is an evil man to boot, and I am certain others think the same.

As for our idiot Pres. Bush he is clueless about other cultures and how they behave in history.
Now we have a bloody mess on our hands and in 17 months Bush goes free and clear, and on the speech circuit or back into the oil business with Chenney.

Both should be hanged for what they have done to America and Iraq.

Galactic Cannibal

#296 57 Normand

WMD are understood to be nuclear devices.
But multiple countries possess chemical weapons including ours.
When used depend on the direction of the blowing wind. The gas can kill the people who realese it ,if they are suddendly caught down wind.
I read about Saddam using gas , as I said I am an avid reader since early childhood.

In WWI and WWII gas was used and it killed both sides as the wind changed.

The inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had no chance and the pilots of the Enola Gay flew back home after incenerating approx 220,000 Japanese civilians.
They dropped WMDs and we are the only copuntry in human history to excute people in this fastion.

99.99% of people listening to D Chenney understand he is referring to nuclear weapons. Apparently you fit the 0.01%.
Remember Blair's speel about a 45 minute launch ready by Saddam.
So you can trawl all the web sites in Google but only one will macth the WMD and that's nuclear. And we used it nuclear against civilians..

Dick Chenney suffers from acute delusion, but he is an evil man to boot, and I am certain others think the same.

As for our idiot Pres. Bush he is clueless about other cultures and how they behave in history.
Now we have a bloody mess on our hands and in 17 months Bush goes free and clear, and on the speech circuit or back into the oil business with Chenney.

Both should be hanged for what they have done to America and Iraq.

Galactic Cannibal

#306-Wally-You must work for some anti-american, liberal, socialist group? Do you work for rosie odonnell? I didn't check out your website, but I did read the book about the 9/11 conspiracy. It was actually laughable at times, and of course-facts and explanations were left out. Use your common sense and realize how many people would have had to have been involved. And, BTW-it is possible to make a phone call from a plane in flight. These conspiracy theories are a disgrace and an insult to the passengers, flight attendants, and all the victims families, not to mention the traffic controllers & norad. You do know anyone can make & edit a film. And You know darned well that if any dem. politician thought 9/11 was an inside job, they would call for an investigation (like they do with Everything else).

Cliff & American - I wish I could respond to both you guys in a meaningful way. But your posts to me are just emotion-laden accusations. I think my advice is to both of you to not watch tv. That stuff is garbage and it will turn your mind over to a reprobate condition. You need some serenity. Try meditation or prayer regimen. Go to Sedona. Better yet go out in the desert and sleep there for one night. If you don't get bit by rattlesnake you'll be better in the morning. Stay away from that tv. You're turning reprobate. your passions are too strong, your thinking is unclear.

Robert Burns(274) Don't throw that troll or ugly American crap at me... I'm not the one repeating bs about whats going on at Gitmo or trying to compare our troops to the throat slashing thugs hiding behind masks. That crap comes from an American media that is eager to show our country in a bad light. Tell me you've never noticed how they are eager to report any bad apples and stories of good or corrections of mistakes are buried on the back pages. Wonder how the stories about WWII would have looked with this media around. These stories or rumors don't die; they are repeated over and over again, even when they are shown not to be true. I don't even mention the slams we take from some in the U.N. or the foreign press. I know that they don't like us so I expect no more than that .

Gobbler, cliff & American & others:

the nature of the propaganda in our media has been for decades that it will give you grudges. events and policies are even arranged to contribute to these grudges that you have. and then you can be easily manipulated and deceived by the people who've given you these grudges. the people who rule us are very very good at propaganda.

#304-Angus-It's nice to know that someone is looking beyond Iraq and sees what the real threat is. Many articles in the scottsman report "islamic threats" & islamic bombings in other countries. I don't understand how people can't see what's actually going on in the world.

245. 57Nomad, california

"If we were on an expansionist quest, then why don't we just take what we want? We could if we wanted to. That's a pretty good indication that we're not, "on an expansionist quest to control the entire middle east." If we wanted to control the entire middle east the way, say, Britain controlled India for several hundred years, or controls Northern Ireland today, we could do it and no one could stop us and you know it."

Fortunately, the world has moved on from primitive civilisations, the Middle Ages, Imperial days, th Wild West etc.

There are still people around with that mind set, ie Bush Blair Olmert, but we have democratic control now to keep them in check.

We also have people like Saddam, bin Laden, Musharraq, the Shah etc who are leaders of countries that are still stuck in medieval times. Instead of using these people for the good of themselves and their own countries, we have used them for our own good as proxy colonialists, and we are still in the business of exploiting poor and backward people all around the world.

Now they are rising up against us, and who can blame them? If we really believe in our way of life, we will lead by example, and they will follow.

But if we are led by creatures like Bush and Blair, what sort of example is that? We had better get our own countries sorted out, and stop our exploitation and persecution of people who cannot help themselves; then we will be getting somewhere.

Right now we are on an expansionist quest to control not just the Middle East, but the whole planet. Nothing wrong with that if we control it for good and ultimate freedom for all, but not for evil and ultimate slavery, like we are doing now.

248. Wini, England

"244 bill - A simplistic blame Bush/Blair for everything"

Untrue - I also blame myself and you and everybody who has allowed these creatures to get into power and stay there.

"What lies has Blair told? What crimes has Blair committed?"

You know the answers to these questions.

"Why is he responsible for the killings and not the killers - the terrorists?"

He and the terrorists are both responsible for the killings. They are is the same business.

Where is Scaramouche ?

Wally(317) If you spend a little time doing your own research and make it a point to watch speaches and news confrences live when you can...you don't have to rely on the media for your information. I agree they are very good at spinning things, telling you what they want you to think somebody said or even what you should think about things. Many people are too lazy to dig out the facts for themselves so they rely on this spoon fed information. Can't be responcible for the crap that is floating around in someone elses head. Wally; did you really mean to say "people that rule us"? That only happens if you let it.

251. Brightraven, Barcelona

No, I have never heard this.

I very much appreciate your bringing this to my attention; I found the link:

http://www.wtc7.net/bbc.html

252. Thistledhu, fife

"Really when did us/ Britain attack suadi arabia or the bin laden construction Empire ?"

We didn't attack the present Saudi Arabia, we brought it into being.

We didn't attack the bin Laden construction empire either.

And they didn't attack us either, not yet anyway.

255 Brightraven

Thanks again. I found the same link before I read your 255.

259. Go Navy, U.S.

"#240, 244...Bill, England How interesting...stealing land and resources. You (and your ilk) haven't yet figured out that the United States and the U.K. have no interest in acquiring land or resources in that backwards hellhole known as the Middle East."

Then why are we there?

"Oil is on its way out and is being replaced by alternative energy sources. Do you honestly thing that BP or Exxon would want to set up shop in Iraq, Iran, or Afghanistan knowing that tomorrow someone with a grudge against the west would blow up vital pipelines, offices, or people? It's certainly not worth the cost of establishing oil extracting and refining facilities."

Oil is on it's way out, because we are using too much of it (primarily for energy and not for products). It will be replaced in time when we can find cheap energy to provide other feedstock.

You can bet your life that big oil will be in like flynn the minute their financial model says it is viable. Until then they will wait for your army and mine to flatten the country and kill a few more million resisters.

"I really believe that we have already seen the beginning of another global Christian vs. Islamic conflict and all we have done with the Middle-East warfare in the past decade is (somewhat clumsily) probe the rotting decay of Islam and exposed its departure from its initial tenets."

I tend to agree with you. Bush's crusade is doing no good at all; nearly as bad as Zionism.

262. Bikewoman

"And of course factory farming should be criminalized but that is another topic altogether."

Not really, it is indicative of the same contempt for life that we are talking about on this thread.

271. Dickie Bird, somewhere out there

Well said.

It is the beginning of the end, and it will be the end if we don't wake up and realise what is being done in our name.

299. claude, London

"Now they are also allowed to sell their stories to the press, earning many years their annual salary in one coupe, no doubt being obliged to embellish their stories to satisfy the press. It would appear now that the nations embarrasment has turned into their personal fortune. That this is being allowed in the first place reflects the decline of our country both militarily and morally."

All good propaganda to demonise Iran further, which is what the objective was in the first place.

Why shouldn't Blair's victims benefit from their being staked out?

302. Let's have the truth

".....and the chemical weapons used by the US in Iraq:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2049678,0...

Thanks for reminding us of that particular US atrocity.

#265 Lynn

Just worrying about oneself is not a solution. Wrong is wrong even if one has the means to avoid it oneself.

Wally, where did I say I am against freedom of speech. Oh contrare. I have never complained to Svptsman, never had a post removed, couldn't care less about what you believe, because most of the time it is out in left field. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to you it seems I am not.
You are going to me me that I said become a vegetarian was wrong!! Because you said that hormones, excuse me, female hormones were injuected into animals, and were ruining meat.
Okay, where is no freedom of speech there?

Oh, I forgot, I have to follow YOUR logic.

Bikewoman...what are You talking about?
On second thought, forget it. I do not care. Follow Wally's logic!!!

#318, American
Me neither. They are ignoring the true agenda of the islamafacists.

Wally...that's supposed to Scotsman

News just in, they're going to be allowed to sell their stories to the press. This is very unusual for serving troops.

I surmise that the reasons are to ramp up Bliar's demonisation of Iran, to reward them for being staked out as bait, to keep them quiet regarding what went on, and to prejudice any future court case or enquiry.

Pity about the ones who don't get rewarded for being captured, bad for the ones who are injured without proper care for the rest of their lives, and even worse for the ones who give their lives for their country and leave impoverished families behind.

What story, exactly, are the sailors and marines going to sell? How a once-serious nation was humiliated without consequence? Why pay to see that? We already have. In fact, we have already seen the whole story, up close and personal, for two nauseating weeks.

"Buoyant Teheran warns of further kidnappings"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007...

"Iran has come out of this looking reasonable. If I were the Iranians, I would keep playing the same game. They have very successfully muddied the waters and bought themselves some more time. And in parts of the Middle East they will be seen as the good guys. They could do it time and again if they wanted to."

336. entropent

Once the gutter press get into it, it will be like big brother - you ain't seen nothin' yet!

337. thatscottishwoman

I imagine Col. Stewart was referring to modern training methods to secure personal safety and release; remember they were not prisoners of war, just intruders.

287. Alec in Chicago

FYI: I have posted at various times that I was brought up in Edinburgh in a highly multi-cultural/secular location. I grew up in a house with muslims, jews, christians. Buddists for neighbours too (wee coloured flags on the roof and cone statues ourside the doors to tame the north wind etc). I was named after a Polish local, 1st love was italian (well, it was lust, but...), at 6yo was eating with Japanese family etc etc.

It is because of that experience that I object to the tragic/comic posts that have, "Lock up you daughters the muslims are coming"/"All muslims was to takeover the world/are lunatics/" etc etc.

294. Lynne,

You keep citing the Popular Mechanics 'article' as if it's a definitive account. Take a look at who owns Popular Mechanics and dig further. If you genuinely feel strongly about 911, don't limit yourself to Popular Mechanics. E.g. do you honestly believe that the USAF had only 14 planes combat ready that day? Little Finland has 40 F18s (out of 50) ready to fly in minutes. Muslim fanatics in a bar and enjoying lap dancers? A passport still in perfect condition but the black box missing? a few of teh 'hijackers' still alive and well? Debris from the Pentagon 'crash'? Where was it? It evaporated, we are told.

There are serious doubts about the official explanations Lynne and Popular Mechanics doesn't come close to answering these doubts.

Who bought the area a few months before 911? WHo was in charge of building security? Whose little bro was on the board of that company? How much did Silverstien get from the insurance? 10000 should have been in buildings but werent. What was the CIA case going on at the time and where was the case evidence stored? The amazingly slow flying airforce planes? What was the projected refurbishment cost of the buildings? Why won't the FBI release all the video they have? Who did Idiot Boy share a cigar with soon afte

Have read that Scaramouche is ill and in hospital.

Come on, wish him a speedy recovery and return to brighten these forums

Totally agree with Bill @ 339....

These people were treated very well by their captors - They have them to thank for now being at liberty to earn some extra cash by attemting to discredit Iran...

This whole business has degenerated into a total obscenity....

FinnKing in 342 -

I agree with your characterization of Popular Mechanics article that Lynne loves to bring up. Lynne will tell you that it was definitive or proof. Listen, it was garbage. It did NOT address the issues. and within 1-2 months prior to that article coming out there was a change in management with key employees replaced at Popular Mechanics. it was a propaganda hit-piece.

I put up a link that is well-footnoted and documented with plain facts about WTC7 collapse reported widely in mainstream media and Lynne has trouble responding to that.

343. The Wizard

I agree.

Gobbler in 322:

you asked "did you really mean to say "people that rule us"? That only happens if you let it."

I admit that 'people who rule us' rhetoric is wild and out-of-step with what people want to think. I myself think democracy is a good idea, but I do not think that 'we the people' do rule. I think there is a clique that actually does rule over us. they determine the tone & substance of our news. It is not honest news. they mould & shape us over time and manipulate us. unfortunate but true.

I don't think our system works to facilitate that we the people rule. We are being ruled over and democracy ideology I think is a fraud.

#347 Reading Public
The only real question to ask about the 9-11 catastrophe is whether you believe the US government is capable of slaughtering Americans for political purposes. Everything else, all the conspiracy theories, only apply if your answer to the fundamental question is yes, the American government would slaughter Americans for some political purpose. If you believe that, you will believe all the conspiracy nonsense, if you do not, you won't.
Being a government bureaucrat myself, I don't think the US bureaucracy is 1) capable of such an operation as described by conspiracy theorists, and 2) capable of keeping such a conspiracy secret.

Jonboy and Bill!
Keep at it! .... Your spears are sharp and bright!
Every tiny TRUE syllable of yours makes the banshees scream in terror!
There IS a catastrophic time ahead; like the world has never ever seen. No need for crystal balls to see why!
I'm over on the Black Vault for contacting in the next few days; but I gave up posting over there; it was futile; too many nutters airing their egos!

347. Reading Public

I simply asked some questions! Have you got answers for them?

USAF: they normally take off within minutes to respond to any anomoly in the skies. The go up and check out what is happening with a plane that is out of contact with the ground. Check into it yourself. As to the idea that they would shoot down passenger planes---- yes, they would if they are instructed to do so. The idea of a large jet liner being used as a weapon isn't new. Also, do a quick risk assessment yourself on planes flying over cities.

re 911: Oh, there are LOTS of unanswered questions. My questions in 342 are just the tip of the iceberg. BTW: I am not prone to ridiculous beliefs, honestly. But niether do I simply accept with question the bull that governments spew out to the masses. Please, don't be offended by question. Try to answer them.

Happy vernal equinox! (to those in the north).

The jets at the air base here on 9-11 responded and were flying over NYC within 7 minutes
I think 7 minutes is too long- howver whta is- is.
If ordered, they would have shot down the passenger plane.

Because I live here, I always know when something is wrong. When they fly overhead, the house vibrates and the cell/mobile phones don't work for extended periods of times. One 4th of July weekend our phones didn't work for about 4 days. That was evidently when an attack was foil. We know only in hindsight why and where.
The pilots do not talk.

#342 Finnking

Not to mention the Phoenix Memo written by an FBI agent, Ken Williams, in July before the attacks warning that Arab students training in US flight schools were directly linked to terrorist organizations and indeed, Bin Laden. His warnings were igored.

Or what about John O'Neil, FBIs top Counter Terrorism expert who was forced to resign because he was not only warning about an imanent attack, but also criticizing the administration for its failure to act?

What about Christmas Eve 2004 when Rumsfeld sliped up and said that Flight 93 was shot down?

What about the fact that the National Reconaissance Office was running an emergency response exercise involving a plane crashing into a government building on the day that the attacks happened, thus confounding first responders withthe confluence of real emergency messages with staged ones? That's a matter of public record. The London attacks? A "consulting agency" was running emergency response exercises involving bomb attacks ate the same times and locations as the actual attacks. What are the statistical odds of that happening?

So many unanswered questions. You would think that even the most diehard right-winger would at least be curious...

Reading Public 345:

you love to make personal attacks, but you are light on substance and don't read much. Since you commented on whether I was native to this state or not I will tell you that my great grandfather arrived here in 1856. Stationed at camp Verde. We have map of Arizona made in early 1870's that does not show Phoenix of course. he spent 30 years in army and was among the men who captured Geronimo.

Regarding your assertions on the air force jets that are sent up to intercept civilian aircraft when they are off-course - you really should read more. If you did, then here's what you'd know. It is ROUTINE for the government to monitor all civilian aircraft as to their flights in this country. When they get off-course the USAF launches jets to check them out ROUTINELY. this happens 2-3 times per week in actual fact. automatic systems are in place to notify as soon as civilian planes go off-course. You may remember a few years ago when a small passenger jet carrying maybe 10 people including a professional golfer went off-course. The US Air Force sent up a jet to check it out. Allegedly the passenger jet was way off-course and flying at very high altitude. It was said in the news that the occupants were all dead and I believe they actually shot it down allegedly for safety. this was right in the mainstream news and yet you deny it. Like I said you don't read much and you are informed by your prejudices.

On the morning of September 11, 2001 the normal system of launching jets to check out civilian airliners that are off-course did not function. I have posted links here quoting air traffic controllers & air force people marvelling at this fact and you apparently didn't read them.

Also on the morning of September 11, 2001 a civilian jetliner was shot down by the USAF. It happened in Pennsylvania. It was the jet allegedly headed for Washington where we heard 'stories' on tv that the passengers had over-powered t

ReadingPublic - I direct you to bikewoman's post in 354. She is stating facts surrounding the issue you were asking about.

A fellow named michael Rupeprt wrote a book documenting thuroughly that the USAF failed to respond that day as they normally would. Ruppert spoke to air force officers and concluded that the orders came from Rumsfeld to simply stand down. ruppert was once a Los Angeles Police officer. He said he gathered enough evidence to indict Rumsfeld.

There are many unknowns concerning the september 11 events, but it is known beyond shadow of any doubt that the official story is just a big lie. and I want to point out that I did not raise this issue on this board - others did.

#347 Reading Public

It is called a False Flag Operation and our elected officials do engage in them. In fact, Operation Northwood, which was planned during the Cuban Missile Crisis, involved the US hijacking one of its own planes and blaming it on Cuba. Fortunately it was not carried out, however it was planned by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and stopped by Kennedy.

Some other events for which there is very strong evidence of a false flag oeration... The sinking of the Maine, the Gilf of Tonkin, the attack on Pearl Harbor (I am sure you have heard by now that the evidence points to Roosevelt having known about the attack and permiting it so that the US would get into WWII. Then there is the attack on the USS Liberty...

337. thatscottishwoman

I imagine Col. Stewart was referring to modern training methods to secure personal safety and release; remember they were not prisoners of war, just intruders.

#350 Entropent

I have no doubt that you, as a government bureaucrat, would never kill Americans for any percieved gain. I assume that the vast majority of government employees would also not do so. But the US Government is not a homogenous entity with a single mind and a single purpose. It is a heterogeneous collection of many individuals. As such, it is corruptable and we know, has often been corrupt (you know what they say about power...)

Perhaps then we need to be careful in our choice of language when discussing this topic. It is not the government per se that I believe had a clear motive for allowing the attacks (or even being involved in the attacks) of 9/11. Just an elite few. This is much the same as the assumption I make that the vast majority of government workers would have no reason for awarding Halliburton or kellog Brown and Root no-bid contracts that have been worded in such a way as to allow them to bilk the government. But an elite handful clearly do.

I am not lumping you in with those whose motives and actions I question.

Wally 317 Cliff & American - I wish I could respond to both you guys in a meaningful way. But your posts to me are just emotion-laden accusations. I think my advice is to both of you to not watch tv.

No admissions as usual and no ability to challenge presented information is the method lost to you that prevents you from responding in a meaningful way. Symptomic of the disingenuous deliberate debater whose primary intent is to sow seeds of ludicrous information to persuade shallow minds that are likewise persuaded by those ludicrous allegations.
Meaningful way... Get a grip. Never been there never done that Wally. Its in the history books Wally not TV. Watching TV will take one to your lost world. Take you ritalin and go to a cave away from people. You/We will be better for it as you avoid the realities of a history that defames your world and if you really want to make a meaningful reply go read the US pledge of allegiance, memorize it and wave a US flag and pledge allegience. You are without hope. Go take you medications.

Riddlin is a common misspelling of Ritalin. Ritalin® is a medication that is commonly prescribed to treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) ...

http://adhd.emedtv.com/ritalin/riddlin.html

345. Reading Public, Wisc/USA/Scotland

"#319 Bill of England, Quote"
Fortunately, the world has moved on from primitive civilisations, the Middle Ages, Imperial days, th Wild West etc."
Really Bill, I give you Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. You are telling me that these are enlightened civilisations. Hogwash, look at their civil rights records and you as a PC Liberal should know, unless you bend your observations to suit your argument."

If you take the time to read the whole of my posting you will see that I describe these countries as being still stuck in medieval times.

I would describe myself as anything but a PC liberal.

351. Brightraven, Barcelona

What's the Black Vault?

#347 Reading Public

A starting point for your inquiries... Satam al-Sugami's amd Mohammad Atta's passports which officials are still saying magically made their way out of the fireball of the plane hitting (a fire so intense they are also claiming it melted the steel in the building, destroyed the black boxes, vaporized the passengers) to be found, undamaged, in the rubble on the street below. Just this one incident should be enough to make a person take pause and question the veracity of what we are being told.

Lynne in 332:

In 294 you said "To keep repeating such garbage should be against the law." and then in 332 you denied that you said this.

It was either October or November of 2001 that President bush gave a speech to UN and also said that it should be against the law to tell news stories that differ from the mainstream (CIA influenced) media. Now please don't deny that it is CIA influenced. Because in 1970's CIA officials testified before the US Congress under oath and said that it was CIA influenced. Also there have been news articles in the last 2-3 years documenting that the government spends billions of dollars per year to influence the news by paying journalists directly.

The original Patriot Act gives government the power to tell any journalist not to report on any news story. and to do this in secret without court review, even able to bar the journalist from saying that he was prohibited in this way. And if the journalist defies the order given to him he can be arrested without public announcement and held in a military jail without trial.

If you support Bush, then you are completely opposed to the Bill of Rights that is attached to the Constitution because bush & the Republicans have passed legislation that does away with many of those rights.

Some have objected to me describing this clique that rules us as 'Next Generation NAZIs'. but that is a very apt description.

#359 Bikewoman, I guess my point is, I don't buy the motive, so everything else, all the questions about 9-11, just don't compute for me. And in a time where everybody has a story to sell, I don't see any operative coming forward to make a mint on the "real" story of 9-11.

365 entropent:

you said "I don't see any operative coming forward to make a mint on the "real" story of 9-11."

Bikewoman mentioned john O'Neil. He was FBI agent over long period of time. before that he was US Army. His character is portrayed in Mel Gibson's movie 'we were soldiers', considered very much a distinguished combat hero in Vietnam. He was investigating terrorism for the FBI. he was doing too good a job and told to stop. Yet he continued anyway in his own time. He was fired for this. Then he was hired to be Chief of Security at the World Trade center. The security company that hired him has Marvin bush (president's brother) sitting on its board of directors. John O'Neil was killed his first day on the job september 11, 2001.

does this give you a small hint as to why things don't work as you desire them to?

When Senator Daschle said strongly behind closed doors that there needed to be a real investigation of the September 11 events and that it needed to be run by congress it was reported in newspapers he said this. Then his office received an anthrax letter in the mail. And subsequent news reports documented that the anthrax came from the US government. And then great media propaganda came forth against Daschle and he was not re-elected unlike over 95% of all incumbents. Does this give you another hint?

the 911 researchers have done their jobs. They've been the watchmen on the wall. the saw the danger and they warned us. There are many of them each tackling a small piece of the puzzle, but collectively doing an absolute super job. Just because the mass media does not focus on them does not mean that they do not exist. I tell you almost all of them got paid nothing. Many of them sacrificed greatly to do the work they did. Kevin ryan for example immediately fired from Underwriter's Lab as soon as he went public. They did not profit. but they told you the news. If you don't want to he

Thanks for the info Wally, but for me it still gets back to motive. I don't believe Americans (even a tiny cabal of evildoers) would conspire to bring down the World Trade Centers and the Pentagon, for whatever reason. It just doesn't compute for me.

#365 Entropent

I understand your point. We may just end up not agreeing on this point, which is ok.

I read the Project for a New American Century's stance on "eternal war" as a means of driving the economy and the plan for an American Empire in which the US controls the energy sources around the globe. The German news magazine, Der Spiegel, published large exerpts concerning this from PNAC's own site in the lead-up to the Iraq war. PNAC was very open about their plans for a time.

PNAC's site has since been toned down. In PNAC's original documents however, they stated that it would take many many years to implement these plans "unless there were a catastrophic event" that catalyzed things. They also stated that "Afghanistan is the cockpit of the Middle East" and hence the first target, followed by Syria, Iraq and Iran.

Given the fact that the Bush administration are all members of PNAC, they stated their own motive. I doubt that there would be large numbers of people in on any such plan. I also doubt that anyone in on it would ever step forward even for a lucrative book deal. They wouldn't get much enjoyment out of that money in jail. Besides, there is a law prohibiting criminals from making money from their crimes, including by selling a book about them.

You make a good point about selling a book based on crime.
(Sigh) I guess I am just one of the blinded masses that believes a crazy bunch of homicidal fanatics attacked us on 9-11. But I appreciate being able to discuss the topic with you civilly, as others on the thread just call names.
Have a happy Easter.

Bill! ... The Black Vault is a very well designed Forum blog. - And a good means of writing private letters to members of the public without publicly revealing your email address. You can use it as a P.O. BOX or poste restante.

Lynne? usa.........you must be in Florida...right?

#369 entropent

I would never say you are one of the blinded masses. I don't know where the truth lies - I suspect it will come out as a combination of homicidal fanatics and governmental enabling. Who knows. Beneath all of that I believe we want the same things - for people to do what is right and to prosper and be happy. It is easy to lose track of our underlying commonalities in the heated debate over details. I appreciate the civil debate as well. It is enjoyable talking with someone with a different viewpoint when things stay friendly.

Happy Easter to you too. Don't eat too much chocolate. ;)

I'm amazed that the Scotsman is not leading with the story of the captured sevices personel's special dispensation to sell their stories.

WAKE UP BRITAIN!

This capture was a set-up job to "groom" the people of Britain for the opening of another war front. If you don't believe this I suggest you review just some of the facts.

1. No air cover which was readily available.
2. No attempt at resistance - in the finest tradition of the armed services - not.
3. Abject apology - as 2
4. Special dispensation, contrary to long standing rules, to allow these captives to tell us how utterly evil the Iranians are.

Only a few of the salient points. Please write to your M.P. informing him/her that you will not be "GROOMED" into participating in another God driven war by those (B&B) who are in personal contact with him.

#373 Frank

I believe you are absolutely right here. The whole thing smacks of circus.

Thatscottishwoman:
You directed quite a nasty series of comments to me at #80. I was ill yesterday and did not respond. I will now.
- Imagination- I have a fabulous imagination, I kid you not! As for my sexist remark on the Nurses thread I have posted it below.

-Pedantic- Yes I am exremely careful with detail. I sometimes do spend a lot of time to get accurate information/data from a reliable source rather than just google until I find something that fits an agenda- which is what you often do. (You had that backwards)
I don't belong to a group on these threads- altho you do. (You had that backwards)

" * False Identity - Because they are cowards, trolls virtually never write over their own name, and often reveal their trolliness (and lack of imagination) in the chosen ID. As so many folk these days use false ID, this is not a strong indicator on its own!"
Answer:
I do post under my real name and hide behind nothing. When you google it you will find writers, reporters, and scientist after scientist, as well as a Pharmaceutical company and about 40 patents, a few of which are mine.
- "Off topic posting"- I am doing it now. I apologize, but I am answering a post that was directed to me. I have never called anyone a troll nor notified the forum to not respond to a poster, tho you do, witnessed at #80.
-"treatment as a troll is effective-" Yes, that is your method.
-"Missing the Point"- I do answer questions aimed at me- even the nastiest ones. You do not.
- "Thick or Sad" I am not thick. I am not sad or lonely, nor do I lack social skills. I am not obsessed with my intelliegence although I enjoy having it. My IQ is Not 150. I do believe it was you Thatscottishwoman who accused me of stealing my posts from google Scholor. Are they diagnostically rigged?
- "I am the weakest link- good bye."
Does this mean The Scotsman will delete me?