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what would happen is the virgin mary were to deliver baby jesus today in Bethleham - read this article and find out.
http://news.independent.co.uk/appeals/indy_appeal/article...
I personally think that the two most persecuted peoples on earth are the Palestinians and the Iraqis. Just think both nations have enormous history in terms of religion. Bethleham is in Palestine and that is where Jesus was born. Nazareth is also in Palestine and that is where Jesus grew up. And Iraq is the geographical location where the ancient religion (and empire) of Babylon was centered or developed from.
Wally,
1) Jesus was a Jew. And since he was born in the West Bank, he must have been a Jewish settler.
2) Nazareth is not in "Palestine"; it's in Israel.
#2 Wally, Arizona"..the two most persecuted peoples on earth are the Palestinians and the Iraqis."
1) When you talk about the 'persecuted' Iraqis are you including the Kurdish people? The Kurds are not arab and do not go along with the view that the invasion should never have taken place and that they would be better off under Saddam Hussein. (The Kurdish people were persecuted under Saddam Hussein - correct? )
2) Within the last week The Times published an interview with a Palestinian christian in Bethlehem who said they were being threatened and intimidated by Palestinian muslims militants. Are you also concerned about this persecution?
Your other comments about Jesus seem to be a bit confusing. The virgin mary wasn't Palestinian and Joseph her husband wasn't either!
(BTW - the patron saint of Scotland, St Andrew, was a JEW who then converted to Christianity - so what's your problem?)
Most persecuted people???
More than 200,000 people have been killed and almost three millions are forced to flee their homes in Darfur, Sudan - a genocide unleashed and sustained by the Islamist government in Khartoum!
We also hear of thousands of women being brutally raped and many were later killed!!! The rapists are still roaming about freely without being caught and punished! On Rwanda: In just three months, an estimated 800,000 people were massacred!!!
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/article2087550...
I would prefer to be in Bethlehem than many places. Blackridge or Newmains for instance.
#1: An excellent article and proof that Israel and her terrorist government are the single biggest threat to world peace.
Wally, that is great information. But I don't agree that Jesus was a Jew. And yes, Jesus was most definitely a Palestinian. Listen and learn folks, listen and learn.
Cannot believe that grown men and woman are still buying into this divine boy born of a virgin mother fictional drivel.
It is so pathetic that we deserve the mess this world is in.
Media 1I am sure you are not as ignorant as you are trying to show yiurself to be It is because of the attitude you show the world is in the state it is in
Media, if you do not believe that Jesus is born of the virgin Mary, which He most certainly was, then you must be an atheist. Now it's okay, if you don't want to believe, because God or Jesus could care less, and are certainly not dependent of your belief in them, let alone the Virgin Birth.
However, I find it rude and most offensive that what you call what other people believe drivel.
And FYI, God, Jesus, and the inspired scripture, and most assuredly the virgin birth, are not to blame for the mess in this world. The blame goes to humans. We have our choices and we make them. If we mess up we have ourselves to blame, not God.
#10 DK: I am a law abiding citizen who lives his life within the boundaries of acceptable behaviour.
I do not HI-JACK some god for personal gain or create him in my own image. I do not fight wars in his name. I do not attempt to convert people to my way of thinking. I do not occupy land that is not mine.
Almost every war has been fought in the name of this god, how long do we permit this attrocious behaviour to continue? how long do we sit back and watch young children and mothers die for this god? How long do we turn our backs on this problem out of respect for the very religion that is causing mayhem in our world?
I have read the bible, the Qaran and the torah.
I do not want to be part of a god who murders first born Egyptian babies because their king does not comply with Jewish law. I do not want to be part of a god who sends locusts to destroy Egyptian crops in order to starve the people to death. I do not want to be part of a god who asks a man to bring his son to a mountain top and sacrifice him only to be told its a joke and a test of character. I do not want to live my life like that. I want peace and I will continue to live as a pacifist who goes about his daily business with respect for all and within the boundaries of the laws of the land. I do not need some ficticious book of hate to teach me right from wrong, I have a brain and a conscience.
Media 1, may I also explain to you that God, nor Jesus do not belong to any church, mosque, or synagogue. They reside in the heart/soul of humans. I don't mean to lecture you, but religion has been used for selfish reasons by humans. Scripture is misread, misunderstood, and most importantly taken out of context, which can be most evil for furthering agendas of any particular person or party, or nation.
Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed, these prophets all taught the same things, only it was men who changed their words and meanings.
And media, you don't have to go to church to be a good person. You don't have to follow the customs. For example: The hijab that Muslim women cover themselves with - this has nothing to do with Islam. Women don't have to cover themselves to be devoted to God. The wearing of the Hijab was actually a man-made rule 200 years after Mohammed died.
There 's many things I don't agree with the Catholic church. But still, there are things about my faith that I embrace.
Media 1"Cannot believe that grown men and woman are still buying into this divine boy born of a virgin mother fictional drivel."Not the statement of a man who professes to be a pacifist your language is inflammatory everybody has the right to live there lives by their own creed and that includes the people of Israel. I am not quoting the bible at you or any faith don’t nit pick at things you don’t understand
#DK: That statement is not inflamatory, it is a realistic expression surounding a topic which is based on fiction.
Religion has certain ideas at its core which are called sacred or holy or whatever. What that means is that you are not permitted to question them. Why not? Your just not? But why? Because your just not. There is an overweening respect for religion, yet religion offers no respect for human kind.
The god of the old testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction, jealous and proud of it, a petty unjust unforgiving control freak who is vindictive and mysoginistic. I chose not to be part of that sort of godliness. To me that is evil and a signal as to why the world is in the mess that it is.
Your attitude to agnostics or athiests is typical of the believer. Our world of reason by comparison to your world of blindfolded fear is seen as incorrect and as you put it, we dont understand. On the contrary I BELIEVE it is you who does not understand.
Remove religion from the equation and we have peace. SIMPLE!
Jesus, Mary and Joseph were jews.And the Catholics are in reality ~ Judeo-Christians.Tomorrow we celabrate Jesus' birth.
Hi Cristopher, Canada. I also am a Christian but unlike you I do believe that God & Jesus care for media1 - That's the whole point - Jesus is here for everyone & even if we don't love him then he certainly still loves us. I pray that we could understand the difference between faith & religion. Religion has caused division between peoples but faith is something different altogether - with faith should come grace & that enables us to love others whether or not they share our beliefs.I pray that at this time particularly we try to extend the hand of peace where we can & try to heal wounds & old resentments.
By the way, tomorrow is not Jesus birthday. The 25th is an old pagan day which celebrated the winter solstice. Jesus was born in March.
It was the Roman church who decreed that the 25th would be celebrated as the birth of christ. They just repackaged the winter solstice celebrations!
Jesus lived in Palestine. By the time of Jesus' birth, Roman rule had become entrenched in Palestine. Palestine existed 750 years before Jesus.
That is most certainly a fact. Nazereth, Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Galilee, etc were all a part of Palestine.
Plain simple facts.
Marjie, I NEVER said that Jesus and God did not care for Media. You need to read my post again. I said that Jesus and God are not dependent on his BELIEF in Them. That they could care less about any human's belief in Them. They will go on existing regardless of anyone's lack of belief. All God cares about is that we do good deeds and tell the truth. An atheist has as much right to heaven and a bible-reading Christian, the question is: Is your mind/heart with good intentions? Good intentions lead to good deeds.
Religion didn't cause divisions, people did.
Okay, Media, fine. Have it your way and I don't mean to judge you. And I won't argue with you about it again. I do see where you are coming from.
To post 17. Wrong. Prove it. Obviously you grabbed your info from the deluded christian zionist files or the zionist files. Either way you are wrong. And now you are playing games with this judeo-christian nonsense. More zionist info, for sure.
Christopher #.8: sorry, but Jesus was indeed a Jew. The Gospels clearly tell us that He was cicrumcised according to the dictates of Mosaic Law, that He attended both the synagogue (where He preached) and the Temple; indeed, the Last Supper was the Passover Meal which Jews still celebrate today. Jesus was truly a Jew while He walked this Earth.
Media 1 #16: You say "Remove religion from the equation and we have peace". Then what of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler and the various leaders of former Communist nations? They all vigorously suppressed religious belief, yet there was no real peace in the nations they ruled. You will need to answer their many atrocities before your accusations against religion can be considered.
You mention the view of God in the Hebrew Scriptures as being one which is vindictive and cruel. Well, there are numerous places in the same Scriptures where the view of God is loving, gentle and merciful - it all depends where you look; the point being that people wrote according to what was happening in their lives. It's the same with the world of today.
For Christians THE revelation about the nature of God is Jesus Himself, because Jesus is God-incarnate, God-in-our midst. Look at what Jesus says and does and you will find the heart of the Christian message. Sadly, most of us Christians fall short in our living out of what Jesus teaches. While it is true that some terrible things have been done in the name of religion, Jesus would have railed against these actions, as they violate the essence of His teachings.
The message of God-incarnate (divine humility, forgiveness, reconciliation and gentleness) is one we find difficult to embrace; but it is the only hope for our wounded world.
media1 I agree with you in the most part.There is no evidenc that mary was a virgin in fact very much the opposite with new evidence to show jesus was born into a large family. I read that he could even have been a twin and he had an older brother james.Christopher reads more like a gnostic than a catholic since his religion destroyed gnosticism for the very same reasons he extolls, that of god being in everyone.Funny old world and bethlehem today seems much as it was 2006 years ago ie. children being born in deprivation and life threatning conditions under jewish rule.
Hi Cristopher. I have reread your post & perhaps you've just expressed it badly or missed out some words but it still looks to me that you are saying that God couldn't care less whether media 1 believes or not. God sent his son just because he DID care as much for media 1 as any believer.I do think that religions have caused division because those within them can be intolerant of others beliefs.I pray that God's 2 greatest commandments would be adhered to - 1 - "Love the Lord your God with all your heart & with all your soul & with all your mind"2 - "Love your neighbour as yourself"
We wouldn't go far wrong following these would we?
Media 1 OK, just saw your post #19. Come, on - be fair. You know what people mean to say :) Of course, you're right that December 25th isn't the actual birthday of Jesus, and He may well have been born in the spring. The point is that Christians celebrate the birth on December 25th, and it's a symbollic date for the very reason you mention - it was the time of the pagan solstice celebrations. I see you're in SA, so winter solistice celebrations would be somewhat laughable for you guys :)
Early Church leaders didn't see the point in destroying things which pagans found sacred; instead the buildings (such as temples) and practices were assumed into Christian worship. Some say it was a shrewd political move, while others (like myself) see it as a sign that Christians were sensitive to the spiritual and religious feelings of the people they encountered.
3. SMG, Beit Shemesh, Israel
Corrections:
1) Jesus is a Jew.
2) Nazareth is in Palestine. "Israel" is also in Palestine.
#23 Alban man!
Your attempts at using Stalin or Hitler as reasons to believe that a lack of religion in a society leads to imorality is nonsense.
President Bush is a known Christian, yet he is one of the biggest war mongers in the history of mankind.
Answer his attrocities. Answer gods attrocities in the old testament.
The founding fathers of America were athiests, their nation was a secular one in which democracy was king. It changed along the way.
I am not openly stating that the world was not created by some sort of higher power, but I cannot commit myself to the belief that it was created by this malevolant bully of the old testament who supressed woman for over 2000 years.
I wonder about 500 years from now when our science takes us to other planets at the speed of light. I wonder what happens when we need to mine a particular mineral on that planet. Do our governments transport thousands of people from Earth at an astronomical cost or do they simply clone new life in the image of themselves. Do they then watch over their worker clones until the job is done and then disappear into the sky on their speed of light chariot leaving the clones to fend for themselves?
I cannot place a blindfold over my eyes and hope against hope that the bible and its fiction is true. I am not that myopic, nor am I that fearful.
I will leave myself open to possibilities, but they must at least hold some sort of plausible possibilities, as opposed to ficticious flights of fancy.
SMG - You're a sad individual. You missed the point.
Its no wonder that theres trouble in the world!
Paul #6 - you are SO cruel - but that did make me smile :)
20 Christopher ... Palestine did NOT exist 750 yrs before the time of Christ.
The 1945 borders of Palestine encompassed most of the Middle East before it was recarved into its present constituent parts. 2300 yrs ago, Palestine was Philistia (south of Lebanon) ... the territory of the Philistines, who conquered it from the Canaanites 1000 yrs before ... when they were known to history as the Sea Peoples, probably a confederation of Cretan refugees and the remnants of the early Achaean Greeks, who destroyed Troy c 1200bce.
Palestine ceased to exist after WWII ... you can find all this info online ... though I learned it at school.
Media 1You ARE blindfolded otherwise you would not be living in a country that has 50% of its citizens living in poverty to satisfy the greed of a few
In case you don't get it #20 ... Philistia was a very small nation as was Israel and its satellites, Judea and Samaria. Look at a historical map and the evolution of the area.
The Romans were determined to wipe out the Jews ... therefore they used the name of Israel's hereditary enemy ... the Philistines to rename the region, which under Arabic rule began to subsume al the local tribal lands, into what is now Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq.
DK: Thats 70% of its citizens!
The greed you speak of is shocking, but then African leaders have an inherent propensity to rape their own people of the nations wealth. Zimbabwe is but one example of many. South Africa is no different. The British and USA backed apartheid system meant that the white people were able to build a very modern and westernised infrastructure, which all black south africans can now enjoy. But as you say, the government are more inclined to enrich themselves at the expense of the masses.
I am happy to see that you changed the subject to politics in an attempt to avoid religion. That alone speaks volumes
Hi Media #28. Nope! I can't answer for the atrocities of George Bush; only he can do so, and I completely agree that he has a lot to answer for. However much Bush may claim to be a Christian, his (in my mind) arrogance and warmongering violate the teachings of Jesus.
Please re-read my comment #23, and you'll see that, at no time did I say, or insinuate, that "a lack of religion in society leads to immorality..." I merely asked that you (or whomever, because this shouldn't be personal) need to answer why those who removed religion from society (Stalin et al) were guilty of horrendous crimes. My statement was in direct response to what you said in #16 "remove religion from the equation and we have peace" - and that is clearly not the case.
I have explained the atrocities of people like Bush by saying that they are actually VIOLATING the teachings of Christ rather than following them. Now, can you do the same for people like Pol Pot, Mao and Stalin who removed religion from the equation? According to what you said in #16, they should have brought peace; do you think they did? BTW, hope the weather at the Cape is better than here :)
It would seem to me that whilst we concentrate solely on the visit as made to the Holly Land by religious leaders we fail to recognise that rather than interfere with another nations problems they should in reality be concentrating on their own misgivings her in the UK and as such put their own house in order first. Open letter to all the following participants: e.g.
Members of the UK’s major faith groups and charities have pledged commitment to protect children from violence, following the recommendations of the United Nations Secretary General’s Global Study on Violence Against Children, released this week.
by Jennifer Gold
Posted: Sunday, October 15, 2006, 14:13 (BST)
http://www.christiantoday.com/
We at the “National Society for Children and Family Contact” make the following statement and challenge all religious leaders who attended the special service held on Saturday 14 October at Coventry Cathedral to justify your silence before God and man re the following: To be selective in compliance to children’s human rights as set out in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child is simply not good enough especially those who have a higher calling, for in your do Gooding efforts to spare the rod you fail to address the real issues as enshrined in your own teachings namely to support the right to family life. To say that such faith groups have been silent whilst Rome burns is an understatement, for in no way can it be truly said that you have challenged by tongue or scripture the very dismantling of the nuclear family and the impact it has on society as a whole.
Let the truth also be known that both the church and the NSPCC, far from working to keep the traditional family unit in existence have consistently apposed the United Convention for the Rights of the Child as can be proven from the following quote by the NSPCC themselves:
“We also sup
#35: Weather is great thanks :)
Ok, I see your point. But remember that Stalin was a scholar of Marx. Russia was ripe for a revolution, as was China, it just so happened that the men who came along were Communists. Stalin was an athiest who forced his beliefs on an entire nation. He saw morality as a way to God, remove morality and there is no path to god. But his form of governance was always doomed for failure, for whilst a despot may enjoy the power they have, in the end the system is always self defeating. But the removal of religion in this instance was not a catalyst for war, it was a catalyst for change.
WAR is an altogether different topic. People are fighting over a bronzed aged political document about land rights and historical dates. They fight about prophets and the ownership of those prophets, they fight in the name of God.
That is quite different to a communist society in which god was described as dead.
Media 1 #37. Hmm, I think that I'm seeing that by "peace" you mean the absence of war. I have a somewhat broader understanding when I use the word "peace": for me peace includes harmony, civil liberties, the right to dissent and so forth...things which Stalin & Co didn't provide.
I concur that both Russia and China were ripe for revolution (but for different reasons), and that the first Communists saw religion as being a hindrance to the growth of freedom. In early 20th century Russia the religious leaders worked hand-in-hand with the repressive state, so it's no wonder the revolutionaries wanted to put it in the bin. If the Orthodox church leaders had advocated the teachings of Christ that are found in the Gospels, they would've been marching with the people; tragically, this was not the case.
I am completely with you when you say that some people fight in the name of God - whether they be Jew, Muslim, Christian or whatever. There's a saying that I'd like to lift from the Gospel according to John, and I hope it conveys how I believe God must feel when people go to war in His Name. It's this: "Jesus wept!".
Send us some Cape Town sunshine, please; it's a chilly day here in Scotland.
#38: Wish I could send you some sunshine!
I am glad we had this debate ,it was a joy to communicate with you.
Have a merry xmas
Media
Cheers. Take care. It's lunchtime here, so we're off to do some festive eating.
#1 Wally, that's another fine article you've posted. Sums up the barbaric Israeli occupation of Palestine and their appalling treatment of the Palestinian people. The Independent does indeed follow an independent line on the Middle-east.
#4 W Smith, most Palestinian Christians consider the illegal Israeli occupation the main reason for being forced out of Bethlehem... not the Palestinian Muslims. The Christian mayor of Bethlehem, Dr Victor Batarsheh denies the Muslims are pushing them out. The real reason is the occupation:
http://www.sundayherald.com/international/shinternational...
Jesus was a Palestinian Jew, a Galilean.The old kingdom of Israel had long ceased to be in Jesus' time. It was destroyed by the Assyrians with the connivance of Judea (Judah), its rival and brother Hebrew nation. Those who did not escape were captured, enslaved, and sold.The present day artificial state of Israel, which is on stolen Palestinian land, did not come into existence until 1948.Therefore Israel, as Bill (#27) states, is in Palestine... in the intrusive manner of a cuckoo, or like an aggresive relentless parasite.
