"30 Minutes with Vanunu"
Streaming FREELY on:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/

Jerusalem- During this reporter's March 2006 interview with Mordechai Vanunu, he stated, "This administration tells me I am not allowed to speak to foreigners, the Media, and the world. But I do because that is how I prove my true humanity to the world. My freedom of speech trial began January 25, 2006 for speaking to the media, the same day as the Palestinian elections."

Only three journalists were present to cover the first day of this historic case which continues on without MSM coverage.

Although 'freed' in April 2004, Mordechai Vanunu has been forbidden to leave Israel, forbidden to speak to media and to foreigners under the draconian restrictions of the Emergency Defense Regulations which were implemented first by Britain against Palestinians and Jews after World War II.

After WW II, Attorney Yaccov Shapiro, who later became Israel's Minister Of Justice, described the Emergency Defense Regulations which denies Vanunu the inalienable rights of freedom of speech and movement as "unparalleled in any civilized country: there were no such laws in Nazi Germany."[ N.S. Ateek, Justice and Only Justice p.34]

On February 22, 2006 in a Jerusalem court it was revealed that Israel had asked Microsoft to hand over all the details of Vanunu's Hotmail account before a court order had been obtained.
According to Vanunu, "Microsoft obeyed the orders and gave them all the details…three months before I was arrested and my computers were confiscated…it is strange to ask Microsoft to give this information before obtaining the court order to listen to my private conversations. It means they wanted to go through my emails in secret, or maybe, with the help of the secret services, the Shaback, Mossad."
Attorney Michael Sfard repeatedly requested Pol

I thought we knew this ... about 20 years ago ?

So SENSATIONALIST "Israel's dark threat of nuclear arsenal" IS also a half truth as the only threat is the need for Isreal's enemies to use her a reason for their own destructive hostility - and as another reason to attack the west. The real "dark threat" is the looming extremist religious views of those who posses such weapons. You don't see Israel with such views do you? Remember the Mufti of Jersulam conspired with Hitler in the 1940's (before the Jewish state was established) to align with his attempt at genacide of world Jewry - Israel probably would not have been reborn without the Holocost. Just imagine the shock these demons had when the new Israel defeated the Arab countries attempt to destroy her after its inception in 1949. It is also ironic that Israel did not have support from the USA at that time...

AIMatNJ @ 3. Very nicely said. And the ideas of the evil Amin al Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, lives on through his late grand-nephew, Yasser Arafat, the PLO, Hamas, Fatah and other nasty little Palestinian militias.

#3 AIMatNJ and #4 Stewart B
Agreed - for some strange reason some Palestinians went on to support Idi Amien (who was later allowed to go to Saudi for medical treatment in the name of 'Islamic charity').

#2 Peter Cherbi
Ageed - your reaction is same as mine

#1 Eileen Fleming
Not sure about the 'wearewideawake' website - anyone who didn't know Israel had nuclear weapons must be fast asleep!

1. Eileen: Mordechai Vanunu may be a hero and the best thing since sliced bread to the anti-nuclear peaceniks but he was a confused man who couldn't make up his mind whether to be a socialist, a communist, a Jew, a Buddhist or a Christian. He would have betrayed his grandmother if it would get him attention. He betrayed the trust of Israel, gave photographs and information on Israeli nuclear facilities to the KGB and tried to sell his story to Australian and British newspapers.

I have just the right word for him but unfortunately if I type it here my comments will be removed so I'll leave it up to your imagination.

I thought most people were aware, by the late 1970's, that Israel had nuclear weapons. Also, from what I can ascertain, they have nearer 300 than 200.

I cannot understand why the west is so violently opposed to Iran building nuclear weapons, when they turn a blind eye to the terrorist state of Israel having them.

As to #3, the Israelis did have the full support of the Americans in 1949. It was the Americans that put pressure on various developing countries in the UN to support the establishment of the state of Israel by threatening to withhold aid. The Philippines is a classic example of this policy. And the Americans covertly financed and armed the Israelis at that time.

With regard to how the Israelis developed their nuclear weapons, a lot of that was from spying on their paymasters and supporters, i.e. America. The Americans, strangely enough, continue to fully support, arm and finance them.

As to the Arabs supporting the Germans in order to prevent the American supported and financed takeover of Palestine from its rightful owners, is that any different to the Finns who sided with the Germans to try and keep the Russians out of Finland?

Finally, isn't it strange how, when items like this are discussed in a Scottish newspaper, all the Shin Bet and Mossad spokesmen from America and other foreign parts are there to put their two bob's worth of anti-Arab propaganda in?

"Finally, isn't it strange how, when items like this are discussed in a Scottish newspaper, all the Shin Bet and Mossad spokesmen from America and other foreign parts are there to put their two bob's worth of anti-Arab propaganda in?"

isn't it strange how, when items like this are discussed in a Scottish newspaper, anyone with a dissenting opinion is condemned as a Shin Bet or Mossad spokesman?

can't there be a free and open thread wherein there are a wide variety of opinions? can't someone disagree with you without being dismissed as an agent of a foreign government?

StewartB. You are completely right about the Mufti, he was a horrible man that conspired to do horrible things. But what of the Zionists? They are guilty of coining a slogan, "A Land with no people, for a people with no land." Just as the Arabs have said to leave the land and stole it, so did the Jews of Israel. And so the innocent people of Palestine continue to suffer. One thing is for certain, we cannot allow this to continue.
As Olmert said: "We have learned and memorised the lesson; the weak and defenceless are doomed. Doomed are they who do not believe those who threaten to eradicate them. Doomed are the complacent. Doomed are they who entertain the false illusion that they could escape harm and that they could rely on the mercy of strangers."
We Palestinians are learning. And truth and justice and the facts are on our side. The wall, the horrible injustices, the degradation. This happened to all of your ancestors my dear Jewish cousins. How quickly you all forget.
But we are also strong, and smart, and we will learn to bind together for a better way of life. And we will succeed.

#7 Guga

1) "..worth of anti-arab propaganda.."
The Iranians are not Arab so anyone who disagrees with the regime is therefore not anti-arab!

2) It was the French that gave Israel the nuclear technnology not the US. They tried to give Saddam the same technology until Israel bombed the site, if I remember rightly.

3) "... their paymasters and supporters i.e. the Americans" - are you talking about the same paymasters who have given Egypt a total of 50billion USD in aid over the years? Are you talking about the same "paymasters" who have a Free Trade Agreement with Jordan helping the economy to grow at around 5-7%! Remember 50% of Jordans population are Palestinian. Is "war criminal" Bush trying to oppress these people now with a Free Trade Agreement???!!!!

4) Over 600,000 Iranians live in the US under "war criminal" Bush as you like to call him. Not one of them has handed back their US passport and left the US in protest over the Iraq war or the US support for Israel - life in the US can't be that bad can it?

5) Iranian students were demonstrating against their President just days ago - sounds like they don't support the view that he's basically harmless.

6) You still haven't explained why some Palestinians supporte Idi Amien - what excuse is there for this then?

I think you have every right to support the Palestinian cause but you are also obliged to get your facts right - are you not?

I'm sure glad that it's the Israeli folks that have the nukes and not those Hamasses, Fatasses, and other nutasses in the Middle East otherwise there would be a bunch of good folks glowing right now.

Seems to me too many nuts are too ready to blame those good folks in Israel for everything that goes wrong. Heck, they'd blame them for the pimples on their backsides if they could.

Those Israel folks have every right to live where they are. Heck, their kin have lived there for a few thousand years. Some never moved away but just waited for their kin folks to come back. So now they and their kin folks have to defend their lands from the Palestinian varmints that are trying to kill them.

If those Palestinian varmints come anywheres near my land they'll get a buckshot tattoo where the sun don't shine. There, I've said my two bits.

And aren't the arguments of the Israelis closely akin to those of Tony Blair as he tries to justify spending our money on Trident?

We all know that Israel is the biggest threat to world peace. Her people are law abiding peaceful people who want nothing more than an environment free of chaos. But they will never attain it due to the fact that their government cannot act in an appropriate and responsible manner. Its terrorist government against the terrorist threat they created.

I cannot see how a world war can be avoided, if you can then please tell me how.

#13, Actually, no; 'we don't all know that Israel is the biggest threat to world peace' ..... perhaps you could explain?

In fact, the opposite is true.

Evidently, in your warped mind any small country, recognized by the UN, trying to mind its own business and just survive, even while under daily attack from the tens of millions of nut cases surrounding them, somehow represents a 'threat to world peace'.

What is this obsession with the destruction of Israel that has gripped so many posters on this site - have you all been sipping from the same Kool Aid vat? Your mothers can't all have been alcoholics and drug users during gesatation?

NEWSFLASH! ..... Yes, Israel has nuclear weapons, and lots of them, and they can be delivered in as little as 40 minutes to major sites from where threats might likely originate anywhere in the Middle East. Some may already be predeployed at specific sites worldwide.

This time (sorry to rain on your parade) the Jews are not going to stumble in subjegation to their doom. If that fate is forced upon them then be prepared for a wave of devastation throughout the Islamic world the likes of which has not been seen in world history. I fully expect that with the destruction of major centers within 1200 miles of Israel the death toll will be around 20-50,000,000, another 100-200,000,000 will be directly harmed and the rest will wish they were dead. And, that was just the first day.

So, go ahead, kick and poke at Israel all you like - the day is coming when there will be a price to pay for this sport and what it will lead to.

In the meantime, keep refining your anti-Jew, anti-Zionist, anti-israel hate all you can while looking at yourself in ther mirror and complimenting yourself on your rare understanding of world events and the hideous future for mankind that your hate will one day bring forth.

'Heck' yeah, Muskrat, so reassuring to have no 'nutasses' in control of nuclear weapons - after all, with such destructive power and radiation that kills and maims and sickens for years afterwards you never would want to actually use one against another nation - oh, wait! Oops... twice! Sorry, all you innocent Japanese people...

Absolutely right Guga - Israel has these nukes illegally largely due to Tricky Dick turning a blind eye and continuing to sign the cheques - but the west says Iran can't have them?

If Israel does not officially admit to having such weapons then it does not have to bother with such trifles as non-proliferation treaties etc..... That Israel has such weapons is not exactly "news" but it would be very interesting to know what the targets are for the 200 odd warheads.

On the nail Guga 7.
Does the Scotsman deliberately publish these grungy, badly written, out-of-date non-stories to deliberately goad these prolific worms to repeat the same junk over and over at every opportunity in a foreign newspaper?
Might keep Mossad, CIA, MI5,6,7 etc in work, since there's twice as many of them since 9-11.
I'm sorry to say I dont even read this junk any more - as soon as you see the headline, you know the worms are out - pointless exercise....

#16, Being a Shin Bet and Mossad operative and thus having some access to the current (12/06) IDF special weapons targeting information and priorities, I read (and I quote) that target #3 is Rockall - with the goal of obtaining the total elimination of its single mentally ill inhabitant (#7; take note), followed by target #4 - Cape Town SA (#13, take note) just because that was the place name drawn out the ram's horn, but certainly not becuase Jews are evil, mean and nasty, as conveyed by 'Media 1'. Have a nice day.

Britain would be prepared to use nuclear weapons against countries who allowed their own nuclear technology to fall into the hands of terrorists, Tony Blair said.

So are we getting ready to nuke France?

#14. Conan - yes that is part of the worry, that some one as barmy as you might have a say in the deployment of such weapons (as if....).
I do fear that in the scenario you have outlined, there may be an bit of an upsurge in anti-semitism Worldwide and brave little Israel will cease to exist.

#20, dinnae wurry - Auld Reekie's no oan the list .... yet. Anyway, it has Scottish Labor - far more dangerous to Scotland than a nuclear weapon attack.

Here is a riddle for you guys...

Suppose I take you back in time, to say 1947 and suppose that I ask you... What is a Palestinian?

Now try and guess what kind of answer you might give me!

well . I had to comment on this one, first off I do believe that untill 79 a.d. Isriala was fighting off the Roman Empire. With much sucess to their suprise. So the Roman's threw 12 legion's at em' and killed six hundred thousand by some estimates.At that point our Jewish friend's could not hold out any longer . as they were the only one's who were putting up a fight .At that point the country of Seria Palistinia was created in the same place. So up to this point the Jew's are on their own land that existed long before palistine was a pimple on the ass of our modern world. As for out current problem's I have seen nothing but wineing and sniveling out of the arab world. With most of the world's oil, they should educate their population's. Become the upstanding people they were when they were creating art , science,anda great history. As for the nuke thing , I have yet to see the Jew's not live up to any obligation they agree to. They are a modern country with a stable government. If any one should have em' they should.They are circled by a bunch of jelous sniveling children who want to eradicate them. They trusted the world once to oftain not to hit back with overwelming power, never again. WW3 is coming and I'd rather the Jew's have nukes to throw around, rather than the Arab's , that seem to be not thinking with a clear view of modern world event's.Isreal has pulled out of Lebanonas they agreed, and still they get rocket's fired at them. They have pulled out of most of the ocupied teritory. That they captured after being attaced by six countrys at once. Tell me any other country in history that withdraw's after winning a war? These crazy arab's are trying to build a super power that streaches from Algeria to Indonisia.With only a few country's with a sane way of doing thing's in the way. Isreal, India, are the only one's that stand in the way.Remember the domino effect. Georgey and the boy's are rite unfortiunately. The muslim nation's are aligning to take over

#18 Conan. Well, if you are an example of Zionists and their supporters, who declaim any opposition as suitable for nuclear targetting, then you have to wonder who it is that is really mentally ill.

#24 Guga

1) If Iran attacks Israel with nuclear weapons will the radiation stop at the Lebanese border/Jordanian border/Egyptian border?

(Sorry if that sounds a bit Tony Blair-ish!)

2) The British governments intentions to give the jews their own land was outlined in the Balfour Declaration. Lord Arthur James Balfour was a Scot from East Lothian I believe. Are you folks saying he was a neocon/zionist/facist?

Just for the record:

The Iranian president said, "Israel SHOULD be wiped off the map".

He didn't say he has plans to do it.

It seems enemies of Iran will twist words to invoke some sympathy.

In order to find the REAL EVIL! We need to ask one simple question.

Not who has nuclear weapons, but "Who was it that first commisioned science to create such weapons"

Find those men and your looking at the most barbaric evil known to humankind!

Worked in Israel for a while, horrible little place. Never understood why such an irrelivent little country like that commands so much attention in the world and causes so many problems with its neighbours, nuclear weapons make it worse.
Also, as lots of people are wondering, why when anytime an article on Israel is in a newspaper do loads of Americans suddenly start commenting defending the indefensible ? Is there a big lobby building somewhere with automans ready to comment anytime anywhere in the world in defense of Israel ? Seems pointless talking about Israel anymore

Olmert could not write sonnets in English; but his admission that Israel has nuclear weapons was crystal clear.

As he has destroyed the policy of "ambiguity" what steps are going to be taken now against Israel?

At least, I am pleased that an Israeli Prime Minister has at last spoken truthfully.

The comments from around the world indicate that many so-called friends of Israel have no interest in truth.

# 16 James Donald

"it would be very interesting to know what the targets are for the 200 odd warheads".

Especially as there aren't any left. They've all been bulldozed in the immediate vicinity.

#26

Unbelievable. Iran is hosting a conference denying the Holocaust where they have invited the head of the KKK. And still anti-Israeli, (ie anti-semitic) western liberals want to defend them.

#31: What is wrong with a group of people having such a confrence?

Truth is, because Israel and some other powerful people are UNWILLING to discuss the matter openly, it is left to people like the KKK to discuss it on our behalfs.

There is many discrepancies with alot of the information surrounding the topic of the holocaust. Therefore, let us study it openly, let us be fair, let us permit people to discuss the topic. For if it happened the way we have been told it happened then there is nothing to hide and an even better way of getting back at the doubters once and for all.

#31 Agreed!
Even some Iranians were demonstrating against their President and this conference. Meanwhile, there is a group of Scots who are defending it!

#32 Media 1
.." it is left to people like the KKK to discuss it on OUR behalf."

Not my behalf mate!

#33 then who is discussing it for you? Or would you rather bury your head in the sand and not learn the truth!

If it happened then there is nothing to fear in silencing the doubters.

#35: For a start, I have never once denied the holocaust, I have defended the right to question it. (There is a difference) Secondly: I did not say that the KKK is representing me, I said that if we continue to shrowd the entire topic in secrecy then all we are left with is people like the KKK discussing it on the world stage.(There is a diffrence)

I am not a fan of white supremacy, but that does not mean I must accept African leaders who starve their people to death and generally allow their economies and their nation to suffer for their gains.(There is a difference) I am not an anti semetist, I am a realist who recognises that Israel is as much to blame for the mess in the middle east as the rest of them are. (There is a difference) I am not anti catholic, I am Catholic! (There is a difference)

Dawkins young chap, you my friend are a sheep who refuses to employ his faculty of mind, for fear of ridicule! Baa Baa

How Ehud Olmert includes his government thus, "America, France, Israel, Russia?" is beyond me.

I just finished reading "My Life" by Golda Meir (1975). It is an interesting story of the life of a Russian born Jewish girl who emigrated to the U.S. grew up in Wisconsin, emigrated to Israel and road the socialist worker party ranks to become Prime Minister of the secessionist/colonial quasi-state of Israel.

I found Meir to be something of a John Brown figure intent upon liberating her own people, mostly European and Russians from the enslavement she envisions they suffer.

At the time of the creation of the secessionist/colonial state of Israel, Meir is wholly enraptured by the prospect of creating a Zionist state by declaration of war against the Arab nation out of which it is to be made. There after, she rationalizes an expansionist policy based upon the same perception, a liberation of her people, all the while requiring and relying upon support from the American government, that she terms Israel's only true friend in the world.

While Meir goes to great lengths to indicate she would travel to the ends of the earth to meet and discuss peace with her enemies, she seems wholly at a loss to fathom what it means that Isreal's creation caused 650,000, (her number), Palestinians to flee the territory claimed by Israeli colonialists when it seceded in 1948.

In 1921, there were 81,000, (her number again), Jews living in Palestine, their ranks already starting to swell from the Zionist movement begun decades before. Nearly a million European DP, displaced persons, were under British protectorship allowed to emigrate to Palestine before Israel seceded.

Meir half way through her autobiography begins to call these Arab displaced persons "terrorists".

I found the work quite puzzling as by far many multiples more Jews still live in the U.S. than will ever live in Israel, and yet she seems John Brown-like conv

Guga if you lived on a small island surrounded instead of seagulls by Muslims who openly want to destroy you, you'd see things a lot differently.

Dawkins goat, you copped the selfish gene, i see.

As regards your comment on anti Israel = anti Semitic, are you really that dumb, or do you have to work at it?

I presume you're American?

Media 1

I have been to Belsen camp in Germany to see what has been kept to remember the outrage. The extermination of the Jews was no fabrication. If you are one of the idiots that holds this view then what can I say…You’re a total ARSEHOLE! Thousands of allied troops that liberated these camps seen it, filmed it and documented it.
I’m no Jew lover, but that’s nothing to do with it. People like you are just total bloody morons.

#37 Don Robertson

Thanks for the tone of your reply - not as wacky as some.

1) Golda Meir was a socialist! So she wasn't a Republican/Tory/Neocon type then. More of a Michael Moore/George Galloway Leftie - correct?

2) "...a state that is wholly foreign to the region in its culture.." You mean like the white settlers in places like Oklahoma and other parts of the US that fought and killed the native americans to take their land. Trail of Tears, the Great Land Run, etc.

3) With a name like Robertson you are descended from those settlers (probably) but you are fortunate that the Native Americans aren't going to send in suicide bombers to get their land back.

4) From the native american point of view can you not be called a white version of the "zionist colonialist movement"?

5) How many white Americans are planning to give the land back to the Native Americans and move back to Europe?

5) The Palestinians who own land in Israel have the title deeds (or copy of) held by the British government in Cyprus. There is a clear argument for proper compensation for these portions of land occupied by the Israelis.

The point is that the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc were states that were formed by land grabbing and bloodshed and unfortunately we can't turn back time so we have to deal with the here and now.

"Israel isn't going to negotiate there own destruction" as one American journalist put it - so whats the solution?

30

If you knew anything about nuclear weapons you might not have asked the question. You don’t honestly think Israel would nuke their border territories do you?

Echeleon: Ive seem it to, I have been to many more than just one! It appears to me that it did happen. But if a person comes along and says he has evidence which is cotrary to popular thinking, then I believe in their right to present us their argument! That is all I am saying, nothing more, so your attempts at using the topic to score points is juvenille!

# 42

If you could read you would see that I didn't ask any question.

# 42

You evidently have some inside informstion as to who Israel's nuclear weapons are targetting. Would you like to share it?

#40. Echelon_10 - "The extermination of the Jews was no fabrication" - I don't think Media 1 stated or implied otherwise so I cannot think why you you react in such a way. I have been to Belsen several times, Dachau and Sachsenhausen but I don't see what this has to do with the point Media 1 is making. It is a freedom of speech issue rather than a question of denial. Those who deny the Jewish Holocaust are surely better defeated by arguement rather than litigation.

#32--Media1--the Holocaust has been discussed at length for over 60/yrs. at what point will you believe the Holocaust really happened? i suggest that day is, never. w/all the surviving wittnesses testimony that were interned in the concentration camps, Neuremberg testimony transcript, Russian & American soldiers eyewittness testimonials, film of all camps & the poor Jewish souls in them when found, if you need more discussion & open study to prove it happened? i say your not a believer now & never will be.

#46--James--Media1 is not a believer. he's just better at fooling others with posts such as #32.......

#41:

1) Golda Meir was a socialist -- ok. Economically, yes, that puts her on the left. In terms of foreign policy, she's clearly a hawk, so that puts her more on the right (at least where I live). What's your point?

2) Yes, the colonists who originally formed my country did horrible things to the people who already lived here, and justified it with truly astonishing il-logic.

3) I'm not the Robertson you were speaking to, and I'm not descended from those settlers, but I don't think that makes too much of a difference. I'm glad there is no current war with the Native Americans. If we (Americans) continued to take what little land they have, I would expect to see a little violence, though.

4) Yes, Manifest Destiny was a similar piece of il-logic to Zionism.

5a) None that I am aware of. Did Mr. Robertson suggest the Israelis move back to their ancestral countries? I missed it if he did.

5b) I agree, but what about land that isn't part of Israel, but which is currently occupied by Israel? Should Israel be allowed to acquire any Palestinian territory they want, as long as "proper compensation" is given?

I agree we can't turn back time. But just because it doesn't make a lot of sense to attempt to redress wrongs from ~200 years ago or more doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to attempt to redress wrongs from ~20 years ago -- one of the main differences being that the wronged people are still alive.

Here's an idea: Israel could (using force, if necessary) force all illegal settlers (those outside Israel's 1967 borders, if I am correct) to leave their settlements and go back to Israel proper. If necessary, these settlements could be guarded by Israeli forces for a month or two, to prevent settlers from leaving for a couple days and then returning. After that, Israel could transition defense of those regions to Palestinians, and pull back to its 1967 borders. As far as I am aware, there aren't any more

I am NOT disputing it happened, I am supportng the right to question that it happened..There is a difference

#7--guga--America will always support Israel, & we don't really care that you don't like it! Pres. Bush has never been wobbly on this, & we will continue supporting Israel unless we have another President like carter or clinton in the future, then we're in big trouble.

My concern is that nuclear weapons in the hands of religious fanatics who believe it is glorious to die in a holy war and will ultimately go to a heavenly place in the event their time on this planet comes to an end have nothing to loose.

Godddamn yankee neocons !!

#49--J Dreichman--isn't it just possible the jihadists
aren't as interested in the land as in doing away
w/the State of Israel & all the Jewish people?

#52.......yep, it sounds like the Iran! you were referring to Iran, weren't you??.......

Israel is not a democracy. In a democracy the elctorate would be allowed a vote on whether they wanted to possess nuclear weapons. As the israeli government cannot admit to their possession the electorate cannot vote on the subject.
What the Israeli government is doing is what it has done since the nation was founded in terror, is tacitly threatening nuclear terror if it does not get it's way.
These terrorists should be dealt with BEFORE North Korea or Iran are comtemplated.

Sandy #53
The only people in the UK. who don't care a damn about what happens to Israel are Blair's Labour Goverment and it's socialist supporters. it would be anathema if they didn't .

Sounds like Israel could create a holocaust of their own. Maybe turn all the sand in Iran to glass. It sounds like the message they're trying to send the madman in Iran is "Don't tread on us!"

Sandy..Hi..
Think about this...all of you...if Israel wanted to end all the problems with the Palestinians, ONCE AND FOR ALL .. they had nuclear weapons all this time..

They have not been "insane religious fanatics" like Iran...they have never used their nukes..they have tried for diplomacy almost every time..

They are still showing restraint while being shelled daily while there is still a "cease fire"..

I know who I would trust with a red button...and it wouldn't be Iran and that nutcase Ahmadinejad!!

Lynne

Hello there. Well said and rightly so since owning it decades ago.

#48. sandy - okay so I will put my own point of view forward here. I do not dispute that the Jewish Holocaust happened, nor do I dispute that terrible things happened to the Jewish population of Europe at that time. However, I do not think that discussion and revision (if necessary) of the history of that particular aspect of WW2 should be forbidden by law in any country. That is the point at issue not wheter it happen at all or if only 5,999,999 died. Out and out denial of the Holocaust should be fairly easy to counter but there must be aspects of the Holocaust which require further research as is the case with all aspects of the history of that period.
The place for such further studt is undoubtbly not Iran but where else can it happen? If a Holocaust survivor stated that 20,000 Jews were shot in broad daylight on the Unter den Linden on Hitler's birthday would you agree with this statement or challenge it? To challenge it in certain countries could be considered a crime (even if it is not true) - this is not an acceptable state of affairs.

Lynne # 58

I wouldn't trust George Bush with a nuclear trigger, it's like giving a monkey a gun. In the same way as giving Israel, a terrorist state, nuclear weapons is a provocation in the middle east.
Would you be surprised if Iran wanted nuclear weapons? Your government pushed the Shah onto them, followed by massive repression. Then you supported Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran: you turned Saddam over when it suited you and you want to be trusted in the world.
Ha, ha, sour joke.

#58. Lynne - We should be grateful that Israel has not used its secret illegal nuclear weapons. Jings, I'm so grateful that Israel has not dragged all of us down to destruction; how noble.

#55--Jimmy--there has been only one true Democracy, Athens, & it doesn't exist today, therefore the electorate of any country doesn't have that right.

US duplicity = Israeli nuclear weapon.

#61--Jimmy--be grateful Pres. Bush is in control of our nuclear arsonal & not carter or clinton, & that Israel has them & not Iran or any other terrorist states in that region..........

#64--Jimmy---absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!

#53 Sandy:

Yes, I'm sure some are. I'm equally sure some aren't.

Similarly, I'm sure there are Zionists who want nothing more than to expand and take over the entire Palestinian territory, regardless of how many people they have to kill to do so. And there are also many Israelis who want to live in peace with their Palestinian neighbors.

There will always be extremists on every side of every issue. Pointing out that fact (which is what you have done, though in a lopsided way) adds nothing useful to this discussion.

If Israel does as I have suggested, not everyone would be satisfied (I *did* say it wasn't a 100% solution). But many would. Do you disagree with that? If we get many current terrorists to support a peace agreement, the ones who are left still advocating terrorism will have a much harder time. In general, they will have less funding, less recruits, less support from the people (in terms of helping hide their presence and such), and less determination. Is that not a good thing? Is the cost of my suggestion so great that it doesn't balance out in the end?

How then do you suggest peace should be achieved? (I'm assuming you are in favor of peace, rather than living with perpetual war, or annihilation of the Palestinians.) I guarantee any proposed plan that doesn't gain Palestinian support will fail. Therefore it is necessary to consider what might gain Palestinian support, and, if there is anything that is reasonable, to give it a try. Isn't aggressively prohibiting illegal Israeli settlements reasonable?

.......hi Lynne--i agree.

#62..Jimmy the Lip..the monkey hasn't used it yet either...so calm down.WE trust Bush to not use the "Red Button".. we have MOABS that can do the work without nuclear fallout!!!

Sandy # 65

Are you serious? The world has never been in a more precarious state because of US actions. None of the presidents you mentioned got us into any unwinnable conlict like George Bush. George Bush snr thought better of overturning Saddam Hussein. You have created a situation where many more countries will want nuclear weapons; what are you going to do, invade them all?
What day can Israel use it's nuclear weapons, I'm sure Russia or China is not going to be too happy about clouds of nuclear fallout landing on it's territories, nor is Europe. All Israel can do when they decide to use the weapons you gave them is wet their finger and stick it in the air - then what?
Do you REALLY think giving nuclear weapons capabilities to Israel was a responsible act?

#67--J Dreichman--what is a Zionist? what "current terrorists do you believe would support a peace agreement? re, your possible "100% solution? interesting alternative, & maybe workable, but can the Palestinians be trusted especially with Hamas at the helm?

The fact that Israel had 30 years ago about 200 nukes (now it would have over 500) is a taboo, or rather "a policy of ambiguity" as Olmert puts it because Israel has not signed the NPT (which Iran has) and it would not benefit from economic and military aid if this was an "official" fact, especially from USA. To put it simple: "Israel + nukes = no aid".

#70--Jimmy--pleeeease, w/what Israel has had to deal with over the years, they have had cause to use their nuclear weapons & haven't. what makes you think the US gave Israel nuclear weapons capabilities? BTW--carter & clinton are both "girlie boys" & afraid of their shadow.

Oh, and as a reminder, Israel - just like USA, has a policy of "preemptive" war, which is a euphemism for aggression. They invade a country "in self defense", this being pure hypocrisy. Such policy can lead to world wide wars and it's very undemocratic.

Also, when Iraq was developing nuclear facilities, 20 years ago, a preemptive strike was launched by Israel, wiping out all of Saddam's nuclear facilities. The question I pose is: do you think they'll do it to Iran?

#71 Sandy:

If you don't know about Zionism, forget the reference -- I could have said "Israeli" there and made the same point.

As I said in my earlier post, from what I have read I think many of Hamas's leaders would agree to recognize and work with Israel if they would abide by the 1967 borders. So yes, I think they might be willing to compromise. I'm not saying anything about Islamic Jihad or some of the other groups, but most of Hamas I think can be brought around, and that in turn would bring a lot of your everyday Palestinians around.

Just to clarify, I said that it is *not* a 100% solution. But I think it is a step in the right direction; by that I mean getting the Palestians to feel like they want to work with the Israelis, rather than against them -- and not in a "I have to work with them or they'll kill us" sort of way. ;-)

..#74--Dragomir---yes

#72..So Iran signed the NPT..they said they just started on working for nuclear energy..If that is true, then why is Ahmadinejad declaring his will be ready in 2008...?

Sounds like North Korea to me...how they lied...now how Iran is lying when they started...

Iran should take notice..If they drop a bomb on Israel...it will be the end of them (IRAN)...but then Ahmdinejad wants to lead Armaggedan.. that's what he has promised.
So...BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.

#75
Most of Hamas? They have already declared they will NEVER recognize Israel, and they VOW to keep on fighting till they liberate Jerusalem.
I doubt, I am sure, that Israel will never give up Jerusalem..so...do you see peace anytime soon?

#72 lol. Of course Iran signed the NPT. What do they have to proliferate? As soon as they can they will build nukes and the heck with the treaty.

#75--J Dreichman--i asked because you refer to
Zionists & Israelis in the same paragraph #67.....
i wonder if the "everyday Palestinians" who voted for Hamas really want to come around. that would be a good thing tho..............

North Korea dropped out NPT officially and declared it was going to pursue nuclear arms. I'm sorry if your media didn't mention this too much. To most informed people - hearing about the nuclear detonation test done in N.Korea was not a surprise, at all.

#74 What would have been the result of a nuclear Iraq? Instead of launching Scud missiles at Israel during the First Gulf War they would have launched nukes and, possibly, made the conflict nuclear.

#81--Dragomir--your correct, & it was in the '90's that clinton gave NK what they needed for nuclear energy after promising not to use it for nuclear weapons.(what an idiot clinton was & is). yes we learned this after the first test by NK. i believe that is what Lynne is referring to.

63. sandy, USA / 3:54pm 13 Dec 2006

"there has been only one true Democracy, Athens"

Really? Did you not know that Athenian women and slaves did not have the vote?

One good thing, ordinary citizens were compelled to be senators by lottery; probably better than the system we have now.

82 Chuckster

As I recall, Israel very nearly went nuclear over the Scuds; it was only the hasty deployment of Patriot batteries by their good friend the USA that saved the day.

There is no doubt in my mind that Israel would use nukes if the situation demanded it; too bad for the rest of us.

Tony Blair says that he would use nukes on terrorists who haven't signed up to the NPT, so maybe that would ensure megiddo sorry armageddon.

#81..we got the news...but you forget..or don't want to know.....or maybe you are not informed..we had agreements with them to stop going for nuclear weapons, and we would supply aid..

No sooner out the door and on the next plane back to the USA, they started working again on nuclear weapons.

They have tried blackmail, lies, and bullying... but a North Korea armed with nukes, is like Iran armed with nukes...

85 That's right Bill. Government was a random chore. There were no popularity contests, and people didn't do it for personal gain.

85 I'm not sure whether Israel would have gone nuclear; it's possible. I am sure though that had they been nuked they would have answered in kind.

A few Israel and Jerusalem facts worth repeating:
1. Israel became a state in 1312 bce
2. Arab refugees from Israel began calling themselves "Palestinians" in 1967, two decades after modern Israeli statehood (in the ultimate of ironies, “Palestinians” is what Jews longing to return to their homeland called themselves for 2000 years);
3. In 1948, Arab leaders urged their people to leave, promising to cleanse the land of JEWISH presence.;
4. Virtually the entire Jewish population of Muslim countries had to flee in 1948, facing destruction of homes, and entire communities;
5. Some 630,000 Arabs left Israel in 1948, while close to a MILLION Jews were forced to flee neighboring Muslim countries!
6. In spite of the vast territories at their disposal, Arab refugees were DELIBERATELY prevented from assimilating into their host countries. Of 100 million refugees displaced by World War 2, they are the only group to have never integrated with their coreligionists. Jewish refugees from Europe and ARAB lands settled in Israel;
8. Fatah and Hamas constitutions still call for the destruction of Israel. These both (as well as Hezbollah’s Nasrallah) get direct support from Iran, whose leader, Ahmadinejad, openly calls for Israel’s destruction. SEE A PATTERN HERE? When has Israel called for any enemy country’s total obliteration? EVER? Israel ceded most of the west bank and all of Gaza to the Palestinian authority, and even provided it with arms (the result for cooperation with the “Palestinians” was over 1,000 dead from suicide-bombing murderers);
9. During the Jordanian occupation, Jewish holy sites were vandalized and off limits to Jews. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian holy sites are accessible to all faiths. Under Palestinian rule, not even the Church of the Nativity or Tomb of Joseph is safe;
SO IF ISRAEL HAS A BOMB? Today, Iran's Ahmadinejad said that the Zionist regime would soon end. Last week h

Tsvi # 89

The USA stood by, the UK was at war with Germany and the USA stood by until it was advantageous for them to enter the war. Perhaps they have given Israel nuclear weapons out of guilt at their failure to come to the aid of Europes Jews when they could?

89 Tsvi: The Truth and very well said.

The Arab refugees reinvented themselves after 1967 purely for political, propaganda purposes .... in short ... a weapon against Israel.

First, Israel's nuclear capabilities are destabilizing to the region and need to be dealt with. I fear that Olmert has set back attempts to prevent a nuclear-armed Iran by years at least. Perhaps Olmert is now Ahmedinejad's best pal?

Secondly, on the Iranian holocaust conference. We do know that a lot of people invited declined to attend, so we really don't know how much of the skew is intentional or accidental. Surely it would have been a better response to go to Iran and present the case that the Holocaust happened rather than let the conference be completely be dominated by a strange minority. Had I been invited to attend, I would have just to present the case that the holocaust was not a mere fabrication. By refusing the right to rebuttal inherent in freedom of speech, we do more to further such points of view than we ever could by any other means. Note that there were orthodox rabbis who attended the conference who said that although the holocaust happened, it was no justification for the Israeli state (which according to their thought should not be formed until the Messiah comes).

However, the other thought is this-- why would Ahmedinhejad buddy up with David Duke? The KKK (at least in the speech which was covered in Brandenburg v. Ohio in 1969) has advocated the forceable expulsion of Jews from the United States and their forced deportation to... you guessed it... Israel. It is a wonder that he isn't idealized by the more right-wing Zionists (Rabbi Kehane and his followers) rather than those who want to see Israel fall. At least Yitzak Shamir during WWII had the honesty to try to buddy up with the Nazis in order to get them to orchestrate a forced deportation of Jews to British Palestine. Indeed nothing would be better for Israeli expansionists than the forceable expulsion of Jews from the US (which fortunately will never happen).

Also, I will agree that using the holocaust to justify the state of Israel is counterproductive.

lend lease dude lend lease... 50.1 BILLION in WW2 dollars.... and the only payback was for goods that were "in the pipe" at the end of the war...

destroyers for bases... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyers_for_Bases_Agreement

US didnt exactly "stand by" and watch...

the enemy of my enemy is my friend....

that way of life explains why the KKK an Iran find themseves in bed together...

and if you think that merely driving the israelis into the medeteranian would suit the arabs... think again...

Israel (or the concept thereof) existed BEFORE either Hitler OR we had any hard proof of the Holocaust... it dates back to the british protectorate of 1921... and various other british commitments made before VE...

as far as Israel being a nuclear force being a destabilizing force... you are either ignorant, or stupid... in the 30 years prior to israel being a nuclear power, a decade didnt go by without a coordinated invasion attempt of israel by it's arab neighbors... since that time, the arab world has pretty much acknowledged the borders, and while not keeping their tongues in check have certainly kept their respective militaries on short leashes.

and Israel hasnt launched a single nuclear weapon at anybody....

Mike:

Israel or the architecture for it dates to the Balfour Declaration, which was made during WWI as it relates to encouraging Jews to move to British Palestine after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

Also, Pakistan hasn't launched a nuclear weapon at anybody either. Nor has Russia (Litvenenko's case is a nuclear poisoning, which is different). Nor has China. Nor has India. Nor, indeed, has North Korea (though we think they have had nukes for a few years).

However, I am going to take this further. In the West, for some odd and irrational reason, we seem to want to take sides with the Wahhabist Saudi Arabians over the Iranians. Note that Wahhabism lables all non-Muslims as "infidels" while most other branches of Islam see Jews and Christians as related religions to be protected (People of the book). Thus regardless of what the Saudi government does (or that it appears to be friendly), the religion as practiced obligates them to oppose us.

The appropriate response to both Israel and Iran is to encourage the entire area to be a nuclear free zone. No civilian nuclear reactors. No nuclear weapons. Total disarmermant. We should also be willing to provide a framework for conditional security guarantees and mutual defense treaties which will allow a threatened nation to be able to call upon the rest of us for help. Neither Israel nor Iran should have to fear the other. Nor should one be able to justify their nuclear weapons aspirations by the presence of weapons by the other.

Justice is in structure.

iran said openly that iseral should be wiped off the map,to me thats HITLER all over again,i,m sure that most people of IRAN don,t carry these same feelings.IRANhas so much wealth in it,s oil,why doesn,t it consendtrate on making it,s people happy,more educated(meaning everyone) not just the rich.instead of going to WAR.after all,we ALL beleave in one GOD.and not to be onesided,but ISREAL ALSO HAS TO ANSWER TO GOD.

One more thing:
Israel's nuclear power has harldy been a deterrent in the area. It hasn't stopped even all-out wars (1967, for example) even though it was well established that Israel had nuclear weapons at the time. There is in fact no value because the cost of using a nuclear weapon in today's trade-dependent world is economic ruin, and without a strong economy, the army cannot be well maintained. Israel's defence is inexorably tied to their economy as witnessed by the changes in attitudes towards settlements after the (albeit short-term) economic collapse caused by Operation Defensive Shield. Nothing would cause Israel to be overrun faster than actually using a nuclear weapon.

There is no reason for Israel to maintain their nuclear arsenal and we, in the US, have violated our own laws by providing military aid to them while they have been so armed (the same laws that mandated sanctions on India and Pakistan following their tests).

I fear we are doing nobody any favors by avoiding this issue.

Thomas:

Iran said that Israel should be wiped off the map. Sure that is wrong, but in 40 years at current demographic trends, that is exactly what will happen. Arabs will make up the majority of citizens in Israel and we will have either expulsion (Spain 1492), extermination (Germany, 1930's), or hopefully, the development of an inclusive (though in all reality, it will probably be Muslim) state in the area.

This is already happening. In 2004, I think it was, the Druze (followers of a sort of sect of Islam) were granted the same rights and responsibilities with regard to the Israeli nation that Jews are. This means mandatory service in the IDF, and other things.

Israel as we know it is headed for a collision with its own bloody past due to simple demographic trends. Politicans in Israel from the far-right (Effie Eitam) to the center-left (Ehud Barak) have noted this. It isn't even a matter of debate within Israel itself.

Note: expulsion of Israeli Arabs was until recently advocated both by Eitam and Barak. I certainly hope that neither side uses these measures against the other. But if it happens, it is toss-up to see who does the ethnic clensing against who...

95 Chris Travers

There's no way that Israel or Iran will get rid of nuclear anything. The cat's out of the bag now.

Like it or not, nuclear proliferation is the name of the game now - everybody will want one.

There is no historical record of a weapon being invented and not being used - including nukes - so our kids will have interesting times and so will we if we live long enough to die with everybody else.

Sorry to say it.

Timing is of th essence.

#78 Lynne:

There's a big difference between what politicians say publicly they would do and what they would really be willing to do -- this is true everywhere in the world. If you take everything Hamas says at face value, you're making the same mistake you'd make by taking everything the Democratic National Committee (or the Republican National Committee) says at face value. You just can't do it and expect to understand what's really going on in politics.

But you are correct, I misspoke in #75 -- I said most of Hamas would recognize Israel, but that's not really what I intended. They may not immediately recognize Israel, but they would agree to long-term peace with Israel, which in a subtle but significant way does recognize Israel and the pragmatic reality that compromise is necessary. And perhaps most importantly, it would recognize that peace is achievable through diplomacy with Israel.

From the CBS New website (Feb. 8, 2006): "Khaled Meshaal, the political leader of the Palestinian militant group Hamas, said Wednesday that a long-term truce with Israel would be possible, if it accepted conditions including a return to its 1967 borders." To be fair, in the same article it also says: "'Hamas will not recognize Israel,' Mashaal said. 'We will not give legitimacy to occupation.'"

But let me ask you -- doesn't that (agreeing to a long-term truce with Israel if they return to 1967 borders) legitimize those 1967 borders, and thus implicitly recognize Israel? Meshaal is being a true politician here -- trying to make a compromise while sounding tough and uncompromising. I think that if Israel did as I suggested in #49, and then Hamas agreed to a long-term truce, that it would pave the way for future (official) recognition of Israel and peace much better than this back-and-forth killing and violence does.

A link to the article cited above: Report Unsuitable

It is hardly enough to say "everybody knows" about these nukes, after 40 years of deceit and obfuscation by Israel, America and their friends - a bit like Phillip Morris claiming smokers should have known the risks they were running. The Americans went to extraordinary lengths to avoid official discussion of Dimona, as this would have made their efforts against proliferaters like Pakistan, NK and Iran seem more than a trifle hypocritical (don't get me started on the India deal). No sane person wants to see Iranian nukes but the US should have done something sooner to show it was serious about the NPT with friend and foe alike.

chris you may be right,but wouldn,t it be nice if we beleaved what we beleaved in ,and RESPECTED what others beleaved in.i don,t know you, but i respect you just the same. if i knew i wouldn,t get alot of weired e-mails,i,d send you mind now,so we could discuse other things.

Thomas:

you can contact me: chris.travers at gmail.com

One of the real issues we have to deal with (which I think you hint at) is the fact that Islam is structured in such a way as to invoke a sort of false tolerance. While Shiism isn't so bad, Wahhabism and Salafism are, I think quite dangerous. In particular militant Salafism (the branch of Islam that bin Ladin follows) is quite dangerous, I think.

Hey folks... Im sorry if someone mentioned this earlier, but werent the Jews in "Palestine" first? Then the muslims invaded and took over Jeruselem?

I mean... if we were going based purely on a timeline, wouldnt that make the Palestinians the "horribly oppressive" occupier who regularly send home made rockets into schools and homes, and the Jews just trying to get their home back after they were nearly wiped out?

Im not trying to be inflametory here, Im posing an honest question... someone educate me, please.

thanks chris,i,ll e-mail you soon. thomas.

Confuzled:

Everybody has been a horrible opressor in the past. Being the victim of injustice is no excuse for perpetrating injustice today. One needs only read the Bible for examples where the Chosen People were oppressive rapists and murders to those around them, yet nobody holds that against the state of Israel today and for good reason.

Israel is a tiny country surrounded by huge hostile neighbors, amongst them Iran with the holocaust denier Ahmadinedjad.

Let Israel have it's nuclear weapons.

Israel get's flak from everyone:
America, Russia, the EU and ofcourse it's idiot Islamic enemies.

I - and many of my countrymen - will stand next to the one who's still the underdog:
Israel.

Bless you.

[a non-Jewish, non-religious Dutchie]

#106 Confuzled:

The Muslims invaded around 700AD -- but the nation of Judah was long since gone before then, somewhere near 500BC. If we're going to go back that far though, why not further? The Hebrews invaded and conquered the Canaanites around 1000BC.

If you want to read over a summary of the history of the region (granted, this is a biased source, good luck finding one that's not biased one way or the other), read the first section of "The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict", published by Jews for Justice in the Middle East, which is available online at many sites. Here is one: http://www.cactus48.com/earlyhistory.html

The problem (in my mind) is not what happened 3000 years ago, or 1300 years ago, or even 60 years ago. The most sensible thing to do (in my opinion) is to address the problems as they stand at the moment. One of these is the unofficial Israeli settlements outside of Israeli territory (as defined by the 1967 treaty, the most recent internationally-supported borders in the region). Another is the cycle of violence.

There is one direct way I can think of that we (the USA) could address these issues. First, to ensure they can function well enough to make this happen, we give the Palestinians all the aid we've been withholding since Hamas came to power. We then tell the Palestinians and the Israelis that we support a two state solution, with the borders as defined in the 1967 treaty. Why that treaty? Because it's convenient and seems to be a decent compromise point. We also tell them that in 6 months time (or 12 months, or whatever, just so long as it's definite and not too long) we will cut off all aid to both Palestine and Israel if there is, in our opinion, an unacceptable level of violence, or if those borders are being violated. We give a lot of aid to Israel, and although we don't give as much to Palestine, they need it mor

Such dreadful hatred, greed, bigotry in the world. Don't the Israeli aggressors realise that in the foundation, stabilisation and consolidation of the Israeli state on Arab land, they have pulled off the military coup of the 20th century. Yet still they seek more territory through the creeping policy of ghetto walls, ( it's okay 'cause you're on the right side this time ),on a scale not seem in history, in the West Bank, the smoke screen of the road map and the nonsense of Gaza "withdrawal". And still fools will attempt to justify such dreadful behaviour. Don't you people realise that the human spirit cannot be destroyed, and injustice with fester until a reaction occurs when everyone will lose out.

What is being done to the Palestinian people is a shame to the whole world, and is only allowed to continue because fools occupy, and have occupied, the only seat of empire in the modern world - the White House.

It is the great irony of the 20th century that the most oppressed people of the first half, became the worst oppressors of the second half. And watching reports on the TV news, reading the posts of supporters on this string - I reckon the Israelis might even outdo the Nazis in the 21st century.

But they won't win anything woth having ...

110 J Dreichman

So you advocate chequebook diplomacy? Pay and withhold? It's been tried before, and doesn't work as there are always other sources of funds, and it generates grievances.

ECHELON 10 ON 40. Sorry to see that the village idiot has provoked you into a response. But I have to say that you are totally correct. Ignore it and it will wither and die like all creatures with no brain.

What I want to know is this:

There is a very real sense in Israel that there is a demographic time-bomb. That the Israeli Arabs have one of the highest birth rates in the world, and that perhaps as soon as 40 years, Muslims may be the majority of the citizens of Israel. At this point, they are likely to dominate the political process at all levels.

Why would we support a nuclear-armed Muslim (probably Salafist) state in what is now Israel but not a nation that is likely to be much more tolerant of minority religions in Iran. The idea that we like the leaders of Israel today is no guarantee that we will like the leaders in a hundred years. In fact, in all likelihood, we won't.

Sincerity Personified:

The Jews have certainly suffered a great deal at the hands of the Christians in Europe for more than a few hundred years. Indeed I suspect that the Balfour Declaration was passed as a way to reduce the number of Jews in England by getting them to move to the recently occupied areas of British Palestine. Prior to WWI, the Parliament had offered Uganda for similar reasons.

However, this being said, and given the known and documented links between some of the early pro-Zionist groups such as LEHI (lead in part by later PM Yitzack Shamir) and the Nazis, I don't think a characterization of the Israelis as the new Nazis is accurate. Perhaps the new Spanish Inquisition (as Turkish PM Erdogan points out), but not the new Nazis (admitting though suggestions of forced transfer of Israeli Arabs reminds one of the Madagascar Plan more than the Spanish Inquisition).

Most of the wars with Israel are best understood when you understand that it isn;t about land or population, but water and the desire to preserve a demographically endangered Jewish state. The Israeli individuals I have met (and I have met probably more than a dozen) have all been decent peaceable people with one exception (who was at least an extremist if not a terrorist of the Kehane variety). The government, unfortunately, often gets pulled in by extremists, but we can hope that eventually this will change.

114 Chris Travers: I think you will find that the Israelis have already anticipated the 'timebomb'. I think there will be a point when the muslims in Israel will be allocated land in Israel which once handed over will become a separate state. The muslims will be given self-rule of this separate state and compensated well for their relocation. How am I doing so far.....?

Dema:

As I am decended from Saphardic Jews, I am naturally unhappy with the notion that one should forceably revoke citizenship on the basis of ethnicity. That was what the Christians did to my ancestors in Spain (1492) and I would defend the rights of others.

I am not hostile to the Israeli people who have generally been in my experience to be decent and just (and have so far opposed just forced expulsions even by center-left politicians).

I agree with you about forced expulsions but would giving them a state for them to self-govern with no interference and with substantial compensation be considered forced expulsion, particularly if the muslims were quite happy to go along with it. I cannot see the Israelis allowing themselves to be outnumbered in their own land by muslims. Unless something totally unforeseen happens we arrive back at the 'relocation' solution.

#112 Bill:

Well, it's being done right now -- payment is being held from the Palestinian government unless they "recognize" Israel. This *is* generating grievances, and encouraging suicide bombings (the "I have nothing left but my life, and I will give that to help my fellow oppressed" feeling). It may sound like a reasonable request on the surface, but it is akin to asking G. W. Bush to apologize about the "WMD's are in Iraq" mistake -- a political impossibility. Hamas was elected because Fatah seemed soft and corrupt, unable to get anything meaningful accomplished, while Hamas was willing to keep it real, stay focussed on the mission, and say and do what Fatah wouldn't for fear of upsetting other countries. Asking them to recognize Israel is asking them -- from their point of view -- to surrender. Ask them instead to agree to stop using violence in the long term, and that's telling them to find a compromise, any compromise, they can live with.

So "chequebook diplomacy" is being used right now, but with unrealistic demands that ignore the subtlety of the Hamas situation. I am advocating we fix that by first giving all the aid we've withheld, set demands that focus on what is really important while allowing Hamas more room for compromise (peace is peace, whether they've "recognized" Israel or not), and apply demands to Israel as well. We can at least avoid appearing to support Israel unconditionally that way; it may create some Israeli grievances, but aren't we more concerned about Palestinian terrorists than Israeli terrorists?

Those who attack the Iranians, almost always appeal to the mis-translations of the Iranian leader's remarks. And they never, never, never address the Israeli plans in existence for decades to destroy the large Islamic states of the Middle East, breaking them into weak entities unable to resist the plans of the radical Zionist terrorists...the sons and heirs of Jabotinsky and Irgun who wanted an Israeli state stretching from the Mesopotamia to the Nile.

The American media makes every Israeli murdered by a Palestinian (or, in a false flag operation) into an wanton, inexcusable act of crazed barbarians. Yet, the Israelis murder Palestinians in their beds, their fields and their cars and this is, like the murder of the American Rachel Corrie, "an accident" or merely collateral damage...perfectly understandable in the so-called 'war against terrorism.'

As physical attacks on Israelis by Palestinian freedom fighters are magnified by the media out of all proportion, the words of the opponents of the racist, Zionist state are distorted, misreported and taken out of context to support the case of a 'poor little Israel' in order to create fear and gain the support of the cringing herd, both inside and outside of Israel. Make no mistake, there are Jews both inside Israel and in the Diaspora who disdain Zionism and its fruits. There are Jews within Israel who actively resist the racism and imperialism of the current regime and support peace. The Zionists would make their opponents into racists, calling them "anti-semitic", counting on the ignorance of their audience to not know that the leaders of this ideology are as semitic as I am, and have oppressed and murdered Sephardic Jews because of their race, their creeds and their colours... (the Jews of Morocco, the Torah True and the Ethiopian Jews)

Kurt Nimmo's article at the link notes the storm stirred up by Olmerd's admission to what has been known for decades--Israel has a nuclear

you said it... but really didnt appear to comprehend what you said...

I'm behind the "you dont get a dime of aid if you cant get along" thing...

problem IS... palestine has NO interest in letting up...

most of their aid today comes from radical islam... wahabi's in Saudi Arabia... etc...

what would they care if the US cut a minor source of their aid... if by bad behavior they could cut the MAJOR source of Israel's aid...

the ONLY way we could make that work would be if we could get the arab world to go along... and they have no interest in doing that...

sooooo....

it aint gonna happen... unless we are willing to park aircraft carriers off of TelAviv and be ready to begin the evacuation...

and still we as a spcies have learned nothing. 1/4 billion people killed in the last century in war, and here we go for ww3. We deserve to wipe ourselfs off this marble and maby nature will be able to survive enough to rebuild.We are the locust's and are in need of a pesticide.Only way homo sapian's gona survive is if we can have the next evolutionary step is in the brain. Got to loose the instinct .Sorry , tired . can't spell worth a crap rite now

#122 If Israel wanted to destroy those Arab states, it could have done so a long time ago.
It has the weapons to do so..

And as far as the media goes...The Palestinians are brilliant at using the news. So much so, we here in the US got pictures of the same woman sobbing about the death of a relative numerous times..same picture...different days, different relatives.
They actually staged the "death" of a teenager 4 times.
It doesn't take much thought to figure out these pictures were stage for the cameras.

It is the Palestinians who parade their dead thru the streets..so get a grip and tell the truth.

##122 Lynne "If Israel wanted to destroy those Arab states, it could have done so a long time ago.
It has the weapons to do so.." - how nice of the kindly Israelis not to plunge the World into a Nuclear winter.
So if Israel feels that is threatened with being over-run (unlikely given the amount and sophistication of the conventional weapons they posses), their ultimate deterent is bring about the end of the world. Great policy.
It is a bit hypocritical to preach to the Iranians and others about the dangers of Nuclear proliferation when Israel has such weapons and has no constraint on expanding its arsenal. One bunch of fruit loops with the bomb is as dangerous as another.

Unfortunately there's little that can stop Israel from striking Iran. They've done it to Iraq - when it wanted to build nuclear facilities (no, not in 2003, a long time ago) and they'll do it to Iran. They're that stupid and blind as to do it. Probably the Zionist elite wants the jews and the 1400000+ troops in Iraq to be in grave danger, it's the only way to bring in the West into the conflict.

JAMES...YOU ARE AN IDIOT. Israel has had their weapons a very long time, and if it had plans to use them...they would have been used by now. It has no plans for a nuclear war..
Israel is ALWAYS threatened, and ALWAYS feels threatened...and IT HASN'T USED THEM YET.

Israel has never threatend to WIPE ANY OTHER COUNTRY OFF THE MAP. Grow up, and give credit where credit is due. Iran now knows..Israel can protect itself.

Dragomir,..the only other bigger idiot on these boards are you...EVERYONE has your number.

Instead of opening your mouth and proving you are a fool..If I were you..I'D THINK FIRST.

#126. Lynne - "Israel has had their weapons a very long time, and if it had plans to use them...they would have been used by now. It has no plans for a nuclear war" - I'm the idiot and you make statements like this - that must make you a moron. Really your insults do you no favours and merely make you appear feeble minded.
I see no reason why I should give any credit to a bandit state for not using the nuclear weapons it posseses illegally - thank for not wiping the world out? I don't think so.....
Is there anything that Israel does that you will not excuse? Seems you love this little boil on the arse of the world more than anything.

The troll flipped, Lynne is hilarious.

Though, I would recommend some treatment for that schizophrenia and "we"/"everyone" delusions.

#128. Dragomir - Lynne is not paranoid......its just that we are all out to get her.......

Israel uses its nuclear arsenal as the ultimate deterant to anyone who threatens to check their expansionism. The regime in Tel Aviv can be toppled by cutting off aid, cutting off trade and as, after half a century, it has not met the obligations made as condition for its admission to the UN, it should be denied its seat.

But, don't forget, the kind of Zionism that rules Israel is but an arm of the New World Order octopus. It does not act for the welfare of the Jewish people. Peace will never come to the region with this racist, expansionist philosophy in the hearts of Israel's leaders. It is high time that Israelis--as well as Americans and Brits--remove the kind of leadership that has opened the new millenium with corruption, lies, murder and war for the sake of a criminal elite.

lyn, you are the most gravest idiot. In fact dragomir and james shine in intelligence far superior to your so called thinking processes.

The pals parade their dead? Let me tell you who really parades their dead and they do this for a nominal fee, the zionist jews.

The holocaust business is raking in multiple millions through their hundreds of museums, conferences, and books, and magazines. Elie weisal and simon rosenthal are hard at work parading the holocaust dead to the tune of millions and millions per year. THe duped usa public, canada and europe open up their wallets in sick sympathy - they don't get it - they are being swindled.

So how dare you talk of the pals parading their dead as if it was some kind of low-class, distastful thing.

Thanks to your tribe, these people have nothing to live for and your tribe is killing their children by the hundreds annually.

What do you expect them to do?

You are so pathetic.

Well Christopher, compared to the billions stripped from the Jews in Nazi Germany, both in currency and property, it seems to me that Elie Weisal and Simon Rosenthal would have to be parading for many more years to truly turn the holocaust into a "profitable business".

And as a Canadian, I can tell you that I would much rather see my money go to the free and democratic state of Israel than to the terrorists over in the West Bank or Gaza who are either religious fanatics (HAMAS) or corrupt politicians (FATAH), who will starve their own people just so they can put a few more American and European aid dollars in their swiss bank accounts.

As for killing children, I assure you that the Palestinians need no help from Israel. They are very capable of sowing destruction themselves, much like they did inside Israel whenever given the chance!

Here is a good reference for those sweet poor and completely innocent Palestinians you talk of.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/features/ar...

I've always found it interesting that not once have I seen any mass rally's in Isreal calling for the destruction of any arab states. Vice versa , Ive never seen any arab mass rally's calling on their terrorist sponcered states to make piece in the region. Hmmmmm?

Oh that is so rich! The jews stripped of their billions from nazi Germany. Fascinating.

During the invasion of Palestine by the zionists who was supplying weapons to the zionist terrorists? Germany and Poland. Who supplies 'israel' with multiple millions annually, shortly after WW2 and on to today? Germany. I would say that Germany has apologized and done quite enough for the non-self-sustaining economy of 'israel' - since WW2 and today. Weisal and Rosenthal collect an extra million from the parading of the dead of the death camps in Germany. Money rolling in from a long gone past. Germany has paid 5 times over what it needed to.

But here's the catch. Germany is most willing to keep on feeding this entity called 'israel' - care to venture a guess?

It was for the very same reason as it is today. Germany wants nothing to do with the jews. Germany wants them far far away from them - in 'israel'.

Take away 'israel' and where do these so-called jews go? BAck to where they came from and Germany will have none of that, not if She can help it.

There's a good reason for the generous payouts by Germany. That is your whole problem. You think you know the truth but clearly you have no clue.

gee golly whiz max old boy, doncha watch CNN?

In his 2005 book Galilee Flowers, the Israeli anti-Zionist writer Israel Shamir writes this about the current unbalanced relationship between America and the Jews:

“The fate of the Americans is not better. Proud to the point of arrogance, they assumed the White Man’s Destiny will lead them from conquest to conquest. They took over the great landmass of North America, forcibly opened the doors of Japan, and won two world wars, just to find themselves strangers in their own house.

Now, instead of their own history, they study the Holocaust; instead of promoting their own interest, they fight mercenary wars for Israel.

They work harder and harder to supply the goods to their new elite. They judge the world by one criterion, ‘whether it is good for Jews.’” [p. 333]

#133. Why would there be a need for it? Israel has already destroyed the state of Palestine and parts of Lebanon. There's no need for mass protests, the hateful Zionists are already in power (and have been since the start actually), they have the tools and the money to do the job.

xRayon, oh, you haven't heard about the global international sanctions, robberies and confiscations committed or supported by Israel and USA on Palestinians? I wonder if that has anything to do to why the Palestinians are starving as you say. Maybe it's just a weird coincidence.

So post #132 "thinks" of Israel as a democracy. Well let me tell you the hard cold facts about Israel and democracy:

Non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel. A Jew from any country in the world is guaranteed citizenship in Israel, while the Palestinians who have been there for centuries are oppressed and persecuted.

Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews.

East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are all considered by the entire world community, including the United States and the United Nations, to be occupied territory and NOT part of the State of Israel.

Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews, and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories. For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is set aside for about 400 Jewish settlers, while the remaining 15% is distributed among Hebron’s 120, 000 Palestinians.

The United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year from American tax dollars - that 's American tax dollars ALONE. This doesn't include money from their weapons trade and free weaponry shipped to the from the usa - thanks to the usa government.

US aid to Israel ($1.8 billion annually in military aid alone) exceeds the aid the US grants to the entire African continent. This aid is used both to buy American weaponry and to buy arms made in Israel.

Israel is awaiting an d**additional** $4 billion worth of American military hardware, including new F-16s and Apache and Blackhawk helicopters.

As Israel’s main ally and supporter internationally, the United States is committed to maintaining the Jewish state’s “qualitative edge” in weapons over its neighbours.

The U.S. administration has notified Congress on numerous occasions that Israel has violated the rules on how US-supplied weapons are used. (In 1978, 1979 and 1982 during fighting in Lebanon, and once after Israel’s bombing of

To #3

Your soul is so down the river and therefore you are hopeless.

The usa ALWAYS supported Israel. Even before Israel became Israel, the USA was dancing with the zionists to a most macabre tune of hatred and violence.

#23 you don't know what you are talking about. The true history of the Palestinians is lost on you and you speak like you are in a foggy haze.

Oh my word. Once again I have a break from the boards and come back to find the usual tirade of anti-israeli, pro-palestinian guff. As I have said many times before, its far too fashionable for people to portray Israel as the greatest evil in the world and portray the Palestinians as the poor, defenceless, whiter-than-white victims. When will people realise that both sides are in the wrong?

To those who claim if Israel withdrew to the 1967 borders that Hamas would sign a truce, where is your evidence? Lets look at some recent history. Israel pulled out of Gaza. A great thing for the Palestinians. Did the Palestinians react to this move positively? Did they see it as a move towards peace? Hell no!

They smuggled in arms and rockets and started to use the strip to attack israel again. Why should Israel do the same again on an even bigger scale and give the palestinians even more land to continue their "resistance?" Even if they did call a truce it wouldnt be a true truce. There is a ceasefire now. Anyone notice a diminuation of violence? Didnt think so.

Yeah, they pulled out of Gaza but upped the construction of settlements in West Bank (which is more important of course, since it's larger, has more resources and has Jerusalem).

Interesting.

I guess some people don't know what Palestine is:

Gaza + West Bank = post-1948 Palestine

I wouldn't sign anything with Israelis, not until they retreat from West Bank too and pull out all the illegal settlements and checkpoints, at least. Anything less would be surrendering a large part of what's left of Palestine.

Oliver, you are boring me with your lame logic, go back to the hospital and ask the doctors if they can give you some pills for your head.

Dragomir #142

"Yeah, they pulled out of Gaza but upped the construction of settlements in West Bank (which is more important of course, since it's larger, has more resources and has Jerusalem)."

Yes, the west bank is more important to the palestinians but Israel pulling out of Gaza was an important step in the right direction for Israel and the palestinian response was counter-productive to palestinian aims. The palestinians with their actions sent a clear message to Israel: You pull out your troops and we will just use the extra land to attack you from.

Yes, some people may not know what palestinian Authority is but I arent one of them. I know full well that west bank is part of Palestinian Authority. As said above, I was just pointing out the self-defeating palestinian response to israels pull out of Gaza.

"I wouldn't sign anything with Israelis, not until they retreat from West Bank too and pull out all the illegal settlements and checkpoints, at least."

I agree to a large extent with this actually with the exception of Jerusalem. Israel should dismantle the Settlements and checkpoints. Israel should pull out of the West Bank with the exception of Jerusalem.

You see, I do believe in a two-state solution, with both states safe and secure in her borders. I do want peace, just a realistic peace. Palestinians cant get everything they want just as Israel cant get everything she wants. This is the nature of negotiation: compromise. These are the things I want but i doubt they will happen while Hamas is in control of the Palestinian Authority.

"Oliver, you are boring me with your lame logic, go back to the hospital and ask the doctors if they can give you some pills for your head."

Dragomir you often bore me with the sheer lack of balance in your posts. As for going back to the hospital, that wont be till january and will be for bladder surgery. My head is just fine thank you very much.

Hi Oliver F

I was missing your voice when you were not around in the other article, not knowing you were in the hospital. Hopefully you're getting stronger now but sad to say, you need another surgery!

I refer to your third last paragraph. Today in my newspaper, it was reported that - the two state solution favoured by many to resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict had been rejected by the Hamas-led Palestine Government currently in power. One of the key elements of the plan calls for an independent Palestinian state side-by-side with Israel co-existing peacefully.
So, you were right to have doubt this will happen as long as Hamas is in control of the Palestinian Authority.

#140 - Stephanie:

I am rather curious. Whats the source of all this interesting information?

"More about the "democracy" of Israel:

· Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites."

True... I'm just not sure how that makes them any less of a democracy (and by the way, Israel does not confirm or deny whether it has nuclear weapons, nor has the IAEA expressed any wish to visit any 'sites' within Israel, so no one barred anyone from anywhere as you like to put it).

"· High-ranking military officers in the Israeli Defence Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war have been summarily executed by the Israeli forces."

Not true! Israel is a free and democratic country. It's penal code prohibits such behavior. Just as in most of the western world, in Israel you are not guilty until you are found to be so in the court of law. Israel does not have the death penalty, and it certainly doesn't kill POWs with or without a trial. So Stephanie perhaps you could enlighten us and give us the source of this information so that we may all examine it.

"· Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it."

Nor true! Israel never blew up any American facilities. As for the USS Liberty it was a tragic mistake of friendly fire when Israel was heavily engaged in a war for its survival (the 6 day war when Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Jordan all declared war on Israel and consequently ended up loosing the war and a number of areas including the West Bank from Jordan and the Gaza strip and half island of Sinai from Egypt) . Multiple investigations occurred as a result of the incident all of which came to the same conclusion pointed to a

(Continued from previous post...)

"· Ariel Sharon, was found by an Israeli court to be “personally and directly responsible” for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than three thousand innocent Palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood."

If an Israeli court found him guilty of anything what was he doing being the prime minister? Doesn't your own statement make you wonder what the hell your talking about?

for the readers who don't know about the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, they were not committed by Israel but rather by the Maronite's (who are the Christians who live in Lebanon, where this massacre took place)

Here is the Wikipedia page where you can find this info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatilla_Massacre

"·*** On May 20, 1990, a group of unarmed Palestinian labourers were lined up and murdered by an Israeli solider as they sat waiting for transportation back to Gaza. The terrified labourers who gathered in an area of southern Israel known as Rishon Lezion (known to Palestinians by its Arabic name Oyon Qara) handed their ID cards to the Israeli soldier. The soldiers ordered the distressed labourers to kneel down and face the ground and unexpectedly showered them with a barrage of bullets, killing seven and wounding many others. The soldier was not charged with any crime."

First of all does the "***" means this is an extra juicy lie?

Ami popper who was a dishonorably discharged soldier from the IDF, put on his uniform and while pretending to be a soldier asked a group of Palestinian laborers for their ID cards. When he confirmed that they were Palestinian as he suspected he started shooting them and he did in fact murder 7 of them while wounding others as Stephanie claims.

But he was in fact caught by the poli

(Continued from previous post...)

"· As recently as 1988, Israelis were permitted to run “Jews Only” job ads."

NOTE: I have been unable to confirm this information so perhaps you could cite your source if you decide to reply.

As recently as the 50s black people in the US could only sit in the back of the bus. The point is that the law has been amended and changes have been introduced to prohibit this sort of discrimination. We should applaud that, considering that in the Gaza strip and West Bank you still get shot on the spot or hanged for being gay or lesbian among other things.

Its also important to understand that fighting for equality and human rights takes time. In the US it took centuries so Israel being less than 60 years old isn't doing too bad.

"· The Israeli Foreign Ministry pays six US public relations firms to promote a “positive image” of Israel to the American public."

So what? Was there something these agencies did that was misleading in any way to the American people? If they distributed false information on behalf of the state of Israel please let us know. Until then they are doing nothing else but to inform the public about the state of Israel.

"· Sharon’s coalition government included a party–Molodet–which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from the occupied territories."

Moledet has no ethnic cleansing in their agenda. They advocate for the VOLUNTARY transfer of West Bank and Gaza strip Palestinians. They are also a very small party who never exceeded 3 members in the 120 member Knesset (Israeli parliament).

Wikipedia source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moledet

"· Recently declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion approved of the forced expulsion of Arabs from all Palestinian territory in 1948."

(Continued from previous post...)

"· Former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel’s third largest political party) openly advocates a ‘Final Solution’ to annihilate the Palestinians."

Not true! This is complete rubbish. No party that advocates a "final solution" for the Palestinians would survive in Israel, and certainly not to become the 3rd largest party. But again I give you the chance to enlighten us all with your wisdom and your sources.

I have mine prepared of course:

Wikipedia page on Shas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shas

***By the way as a side note... I think your poor attempt at linking the atrocities committed against the Jews, Roma, Disabled, Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual, political prisoners and other people by the Nazi regime is disgusting and shows your true agenda.

"Speaking at the widely broadcast sermon marking the last Passover, he declared of the Palestinians: “The Lord shall return their deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable.”"

Again we have to take your word for it. Instead why don't you provide us with the source to this speech. Meanwhile the readers of this post can educate them selves by reading about Ovadia Yosef's stance on the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

The wikipedia page is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef#Position_on_the...

xRayon

BRAVO! Very well said. Keep up your good post.

149#
Amen and thank you.

Stephanie: “Non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel.”

Simply and absolutely untrue. Where do you come up with this stuff? What should I tell all my non-Jewish Israeli friends who do seem to have bought or leased land here?

Stephanie: “A Jew from any country in the world is guaranteed citizenship in Israel”

Strictly speaking, that isn’t true, either. But the Law of Return does make it easy for most Jews to immigrate to Israel and acquire citizenship. There is nothing unusual about this; many states have such laws for the repatriation of diaspora populations associated with the country, and surely an independent Palestine would want to have such a law for Palestinians from any country in the world, as well.

Stephanie: “while the Palestinians who have been there for centuries are oppressed and persecuted.”

Again, untrue. Palestinian Arab Israelis are citizens. Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are not, because Israeli sovereignty does not extend to those territories.

Stephanie: “Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews.”

Again, not true. All Israelis, whether Jewish or non-Jewish, Arab or non-Arab, use the same yellow license plates. In the West Bank and Gaza, the Palestinian Authority issues its own license plates.

Stephanie: “East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are all considered by the entire world community, including the United States and the United Nations, to be occupied territory and NOT part of the State of Israel.”

1) Then why do you talk about “Palestinian license plates in Israel” when you really mean Palestinian license plates in the West Bank and Gaza?

2) All of Gaza and much of the West Bank are under autonomous Palestinian rule. Israel doesn’t consider any of these territories to be part of the State of Israel. Israel has extended Israeli civil law to East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. This certain

Stephanie: “Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews, and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories. For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is set aside for about 400 Jewish settlers, while the remaining 15% is distributed among Hebron’s 120, 000 Palestinians.”

You really expect us to believe that each Jew in Hebron uses about 1700 times as much water as each Palestinian? What utter baloney! Stephanie, given such utterly unbelievable claims, I'm beginning to think that your propaganda may be written by a Far Right Israeli hoping to discredit advocates for the Palestinian cause. I mean, with friends like you, they really don't need enemies. And when the level of discourse is lowered to the spouting of such bald-faced lies, everyone suffers as a result.

Stephanie: “The United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year from American tax dollars - that 's American tax dollars ALONE.”

More baloney. The current annual US military and economic aid together amount to something like $2.5 billion. For goodness sake, this stuff isn’t secret -- look up House of Representatives bill 3057.

Stephanie: “This doesn't include money from their weapons trade”

“Money from their weapons trade” has nothing to do with US aid. The arms industry is unfortunately very large in a great many countries. Stephanie, you complain about the money Israel gets from its weapons trade? But your country (Canada) gets more than twice as much money from its weapons trade! The UK gets almost twice as much as Canada; France, more than twice as much as the UK; the USA more than twice as much as France, and Russia, even more.

Stephanie: “and free weaponry shipped to the from the usa - thanks to the usa government.”

We get no free weaponry.

Stephanie: “US aid to Israel ($1.8 billion annually in military aid alone) exceeds the aid the US grants to the entire African continent.”

Another lie. US foreign aid to A

Stephanie...have you learned anything yet? We are wondering where your lies come from..it must be from IGNORANCE.

Well Lynne her factoids certainly don't come as a result of any intelligent thought. And frankly I doubt that she possess enough in the way of creativity to come up with such propagandist lies on her own.

She is likely just spewing back what she was taught or has read on some anti-semitic err sorry... anti-Zionist website.

What scares me most is that I live in a country and city (Toronto) where people are dumb enough to believe it!

And thank you SMG for debunking her other posts as they are even worse then the ones I noticed and debunked.

Lynne, xRayon

What else do you expect from this "Stephanie"? A big known Liar and trying to be too smart, spewing out more crappy theories, blatant lies and distorting the truths!!

The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers: True Lies About U.S. Aid to Israel
By Richard H. Curtiss

For many years the American media said that "Israel receives $1.8 billion in military aid" or that "Israel receives $1.2 billion in economic aid."

Both statements were true, but since they were never combined to give us the complete total of annual U.S. aid to Israel, they also were lies—true lies.

Recently Americans have begun to read and hear that "Israel receives $3 billion in annual U.S. foreign aid." That's true. But it's still a lie.

The problem is that in fiscal 1997 alone, Israel received from a variety of other U.S. federal budgets at least $525.8 million above and beyond its $3 billion from the foreign aid budget, and yet another $2 billion in federal loan guarantees.

So the complete total of U.S. grants and loan guarantees to Israel for fiscal 1997 was $5,525,800,000.

One can truthfully blame the mainstream media for never digging out these figures for themselves, because none ever have. They were compiled by the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.

But the mainstream media certainly are not alone. Although Congress authorizes America's foreign aid total, the fact that more than a third of it goes to a country - Israel - smaller in both area and population than Hong Kong - probably never has been mentioned on the floor of the Senate or House.

Yet it's been going on for more than a generation.

You can discredit my facts all you want. You have agendas going on and that is why you are here. So your so-called bits of "knowledge" mean nothing to me, and frankly, the truth does have a way of surfacing from time to time.

Get ready when the truth about Israel and USA policies grows in leaps and bounds. And you can credit Israel for that. The bullying and belligerent nation that it is - at the heavy cost to gullible, easily duped Americans - can only

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

As the zionist that you are, and of the typical common type, I would say, that naturally, smg, you would whine and call me a liar about the money given to Israel. You have to and you must.

Your dear Israel is not a self-sustainable economy. It never was. It never will be. I understand that you do not agree with me, I know where you're coming from - but it won't work. Israel needs the american aid to feed it, and the usa government is using Israel to serve its agendas in the M.E. Israel has itself and american policies to blame for all its troubles and no one else.

Once Israel starts to be honest about its "borders", deals with its neighbours respectfully, lawfully, and decently - then Israel can go on its way to becoming a democratic nation, and not the racist, warmongering state that it is today and historically.

smg, your facts are not facts at all. Given the track record of Israel, everything you say falls on my deaf ears.

Forget it.

Stephanie #161

"Once Israel starts to be honest about its "borders", deals with its neighbours respectfully, lawfully, and decently - then Israel can go on its way to becoming a democratic nation, and not the racist, warmongering state that it is today and historically."

Once Hamas/Fatah/Hezbollah stops the terrorism against Israel and once Hamas recognises Israels right to exist then finally a negotiated peace can be brought about that will stop the palestinian racism and violence that is so evident today and historically.

The Palestinians barely have an effective police force, let alone an army that could pose a threat to Israel.

According to a 2005 assessment by Tel Aviv University’s Jaffee Centre for Strategic Studies, ‘the strategic balance decidedly favours Israel against its neighbors, which has continued to widen the qualitative gap between its own military capability and deterrence powers and those of its neighbours.’

If backing the underdog were a compelling motive, the United States would be supporting Israel’s opponents - not Israel.

That Israel is a fellow "democracy" surrounded by "hostile dictatorships" cannot account for the current level of aid: there are many democracies around the world, but none receives the same lavish support.

The US has overthrown democratic governments in the past and supported dictators when this was thought to advance its interests – it has good relations with a number of dictatorships today.

Some aspects of Israeli democracy are at odds with core American values. Unlike the US, where people are supposed to enjoy equal rights irrespective of race, religion or ethnicity, Israel was explicitly founded as a Jewish state and citizenship is based on the principle of blood kinship.

Given this, it is not surprising that its 1.3 million Arabs are treated as second-class citizens, or that a recent Israeli government commission found that Israel behaves in a ‘neglectful and discriminatory’ manner towards them. Its "democratic" status is also undermined by its refusal to grant the Palestinians a viable state of their own or full political rights.

Some of my very good sources have been Mearsheimer and Walt.

Great men, wouldn't you all agree?

Recognizing Israel is a moot point. This is just one of many badgering and bullying tactics, which, in the end, does the Arabs no good.

I have a better idea:

Israel should and must recognize its neighbours. The Arabs are humans not animals, as Isael treats them and most viciously - especially the children.

Israel has been terrorizing, massacring, imprisoning innocent Arab men women and children, long long before there ever was a Hezbollah, Hamas, and Fatah. Israel is the creator of these.

Israel doesn't need recognizing as it as the wealth of North America feeding and sustaining it most lavishly. And so many Americans do not know this.

I'm not worried about Israel when it comes to recognition. Stop badgering and bullying the Arabs about this - they are being murdered by a terrorist Israeli army everyday. Any so-called lack of "recognition" on the Arabs part is Israel's fault.

Oliver F., Lynne, xRayon, PK, et al.,

xRayon: "Well Lynne [Stephanie's] factoids certainly don't come as a result of any intelligent thought. And frankly I doubt that she possess enough in the way of creativity to come up with such propagandist lies on her own."

Correct, Stephanie is regurgitating old propaganda. For example, the stuff about the Liberty and Cynthia McKinney was lifted directly from Paul Findley's book. See http://www.ussliberty.org/findleybook.htm Very uncool, and a copyright violation, to boot. Shame on Stephanie.

Likewise, when commenting on http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1832962006 , most of Stephanie's message 76 was actually four-year-old propaganda by the late Edward Said, reproduced without proper attribution. I brought this to the attention of The Scotsman, suggesting that as a copyright violation, the message was unsuitable and should not stay. Yet it remains there today. Shame on The Scotsman.

The only part of that message that was perhaps Stephanie’s original thought was the obscene bit about Israel being “worse to the Palestinians than what Nazi Germany was to the Jews”. This little nugget of outrageous incitement is probably another violation of Forum house rules, and of course says nothing about Israel, but speaks volumes about Stephanie. And I see that on this page, Sincerity Personified is now getting in on the Nazi act, too.

Of course, there is no meaningful comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany. What's the difference between them? Well, for one thing, with Nazi Germany, there was that little issue of the Holocaust. You know, the systematic, premeditated genocide that killed a third of all Jews in the world, in death camps, concentration camps, slave labor camps, etc. There is simply nothing at all comparable going

Yes, Stephanie, Israel is a democracy; all reputable political scientists agree. In fact, many Palestinians consider it a very good democracy. Despite considerable pressure to demonize Israel, many privately admit the truth. Thus, when Palestinian political scientist and pollster Khalil Shikaki has repeatedly asked fellow Palestinians how they evaluate the status of democracy and human rights in various countries, Israel has consistently come out on top, with the most positive responses. See for example http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/cprspolls/99/poll42efigs.html...

The sad truth is that the Palestinian cause has been cursed with far too many “friends” like Stephanie, Cristopher, Sincerity Personified, et al. – loony Jew-haters who can’t speak rationally about the conflict and can’t resist the opportunity to make gratuitous and outlandish Nazi comparisons. This does a great disservice to the Palestinians.

Thankfully, many Palestinians are able to see such people for what they are – not friends at all. Edward Said, to his credit, showed in this article http://mondediplo.com/1998/09/04said that he understood the danger of joining forces with people who make such utterly absurd claims.

Unfortunately, even Said sometimes fell victim to the anti-Semites who have made great efforts to hijack pro-Palestinian advocacy, and who have thereby turned so much that passes for “criticism of Israel” into a vehicle for their own ugly bigotry and hatred.

Thus, in the Said piece (http://www.monthlyreview.org/1002said.htm) whose copyright Stephanie violated, the sophisticated, erudite Palestinian intellectual praised a vulgar anti-Semite (“Israel Shamir”AKA Adam Ermash AKA Jöran Jermas AKA Schmerlin AKA Vassili Krasevsky AKA Robert Da

Yes there are meaningful comparison of nazi Germany to apartheid Israel. You just don't want to face reality. Can't help you there. Really. You are just plain lost.

I wonder how a people who suffered such misery can reap so much more evil misery on the Palestinians.

I wonder how that could be.

I would think that the "jewish" people would have learned so much from their own experiences that they would never do such terrible things to another people let alone one single human being.

And here you are whining to the scotsman about taking my very good and informative post down. Your just like the country you live in: nitpicking on tiny idiocies, but failing to see humanity or inhumanity of a situation and the reasons why - all this to distract from the core truth and that core truth is this:

1. If Israel wants to live in peace and finally live in a decent and democratic society......(which is factually not the case today and never was)....
2. If Israel wants to stop living in perpetual fear and paranoia - (of its own making)........
3. If it wants to become a self-sustainable and respectable economy (which it is not and never was).....

Then the work begins in Israel and only Israel. Peace begins in Israel when the good people who understand the crimes committed by their country, in their name, on their dime must stop and stop soon. Decent people whose voices need to get louder and their numbers need to grow. These would be the TRUE CHOSEN of God, for sure. Ditto for the usa.

Without Israel changing from within and undoing the mess it created, Israel will never have peace. Ever. And that is not the fault of Iran, Lebanon, Palestine, or Jupiter.

The ball is in Israel's court and it always was. There is no other way.

Stephanie, I realize that there is hardly a point in debating with you.

Every time we bring facts and support them with credible sources you dismiss them as being Zionist inventions. Meanwhile you are presenting us with bold lies or at best half truths and when asked to present the slightest bit of evidence or provide your sources, again you dismiss the request because apparently you don't really give a s*** about what we think (seriously? you seem very involved for someone who doesn't give a s***) - as you yourself stated in a previous post:

"All you zionist peak freans.....you honestly think I givee a shishe about proving anything to you? Please."

And apparently you are also far above providing sources (cause credibility is after all just for losers). Besides why do the research when saying it is so much faster!

Further more you seem to think that just because you don't bother checking anyone's credibility (and you certainly don't) no one else does as well. You state that in your previous post as well:

"My resources to you? Do you think that I look into your links? Never. I know where you get your zionist lies from."

Honestly Stephanie, I don't wish the type of advocacy you provide (or you as an advocate for that matter) on my worst enemy. And it is truly ashame that I must share the beautiful city I live in and the air that I breath with someone like yourself!

X-Rayon and SMG..Could not have said it better myself.

Jealous of US$ aid for Israel?

Hear, Hear>>> Get over it! Get used to it!
No surprise to find some of your posts were removed here and from the other page. Good riddance all these hateful trash of yours!

Here's a recent one:

"Congress extends Israel loan guarantees"

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=10...

Stephanie, what makes you think recognizing Israel is a moot point?

That's one of the preconditions for aid to the Palestinians.

However, the neighboring countries to Israel are recognized by that state.. (Know your enemies) so your idea for Israel is about thought out as the rest of your posts.

I don't know if most of the posters realize that you have told everyone you are muslim. (I wouldn't want them to think that you are one crazy Canadian)..
But this is why peace in that region will be very
will be very hard to come by. If they all have been given the same information you have been telling us, and all been debunked by SMG, XRayon, and others, then we have little hope of seeing peace.

Stephanie, especially for you I found the following clips on youtube. They depict a Lebanese American speaking truthfully and honestly about the war with Lebanon and in general the Arab-Israeli conflict and she makes wonderful points.

I realize of course that as soon as I post the youtube link, youtube will automatically turn into a Zionist controlled media outlet (even though anyone can post videos there) but I am hopeful you will follow the link, just to see what someone who was taught all the hateful things you spew out thinks about Israel after everything she has been through.

Part 1 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8fa9yKQeTY

Part 2 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0gBTEwATwU&mode=relat...=

Part 3 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sL54rHPwqA&mode=relat...=

Part 4 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHYyu4vsZ6Y&mode=relat...=

Part 5 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgqXYUs3h7Q&mode=relat...=

Part 6 -
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Udib2U0_mPg&mode=related&a...=

Part 7 -
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SUmayTNRLg0&mode=related&a...=

Enjoy!

You're wasting your time with posting the links. I won't touch them. Youtube is zionist owned and just recently. The zionist israelis paid big millions to get it, and slowly they are dismantling the hard work and efforts of decent people who created videos based on truth - the history of what really happened - and what is happening today. They are replacing the good videos with their typical garbage of lies and distortions, much what the posts of smg and her tribe are all about - lies - plain and simple.

So all your youtube Z-I-O-N-I-S-T FILTH is a waste of anyone's time, as this outfit once again seeks to destroy anything RESEMBLING THE TRUTH.

Sorry dears. It just won't work, your posts and trash of links are wasted on people who know the truth and understand with their gut feeling, their intuition who is lying to them and who isn't.

I don't need to listen to this lebanese woman. I am well aware of how they are paid very well - BRIBED for their services to lie for the zionists. Nothing like a Lebanese muslim or christian to feed of the frenzy of hatred and murder, right along with their zionist bedmates. In exchange they receive big bucks.

Irshad manji comes to mind. A sick and twisted and most deplorable excuse for a human being.

But you all love that one don't you? Sure ya do. :-)

#156

So, the Pal-Hezboo stooge is at it again!

What a hysterical whining and ridiculous ranting? And with half-baked conspiracy theories, preaching lies and myths as facts!! Suffering from twisted logic?

Some of your friends are even using Wikipedia as reference to prove their point of views on M.E conflict. Thus, this clearly shows Wikipedia is recognised by your friends as a credible source and not regarded as zionist funded website as claimed by you BUT obviously that's because the links provided by xRayon contained articles which disputed or refuted your allegations with facts listed down there!

Without any doubt, you couldn't face up to the truths and realities!!

#175. P.K - Your scolding rebuke would does not make much sense now as #156 has been removed (didn't have the chance to remove it. I would hazard a guess that it was from Dragomir but I could be wrong. Wikipedia is sometime a useful starting point for information but it is pretty far from being the be all and end all information source. I have found some glaring errors (and outright falsehoods) there masquerading as facts.
The Lebanese American referred to by xRayon is hardly an impartial source but interesting as a point of view nothing more.

#176

Too bad, you came too late to view post #156. Anyway, my post is not for you to counter respond since you know nuts of what had been written there. So, no need to make a big fuss over it!

Of course, Wikipedia is not a site you fancy after all it happens to dispute and refute your friend's allegations which you couldn't face it! If the articles concerned were to have been written something favourable in your interest, no doubt you would have stayed silence about it.

Likewise, the links xRayon presented at #174 is something hard for you to stomach either, just because it is not Anti-Israel or not Anti-America and hence, you dismissed it as impartial source. I'm not surprised at your antic.

#176 - James,

You seem far more reasonable and appear to be capable of a free, open minded and intelligent debate. The likes of which you cannot achieve with someone like Stephanie.

I therefore hope that you are up for the following challenge:

I would like you to visit the wikipedia sources cited in my posts and look at the references they provides for the outlined facts. See if you can find any glaring errors or outright falsehoods and if you do, please let us know so we can debate it further.

Also in regards to the Lebanese American, she is not alone. It is true however that she is Christian and therefore, even though she speaks from personal experience, you may state that she is not completely impartial. So I have located another such women. Her name is Wafa Sultan who was born to a Muslim family in Syria.

She emigrated to America and is now a vocal activist against radical Islam. She had appeared on CNN as well as Al-Jazeera and was one of Time Magazine's 100 most influential people in the world "whose power, talent or moral example is transforming the world".

The wikipedia page for her is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafa_Sultan

And more interesting than that are her great debates on Al-Jazeera:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE-ejGWTUMY&mode=relat...=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYB4pG3kHIY&mode=relat...=

#177. P.K -

"my post is not for you to counter respond since you know nuts of what had been written" - I'll decide if I want to respond thank you.

"Of course, Wikipedia is not a site you fancy after all it happens to dispute and refute your friend's allegations which you couldn't face it" - I don't think I stated this either. Assuming that you can read English as your first language I can only conclude that this is deliberate misrepresentation by you. I quite often use Wikipedia but it does contain errors and omissions so I do not use it as my sole source.

"Likewise, the links xRayon presented at #174 is something hard for you to stomach either, just because it is not Anti-Israel or not Anti-America and hence, you dismissed it as impartial source" - again I don't think I wrote anything of the sort. The female concerned is a Christian Lebanese and her experiences in Lebanon have helped form her views. "The Lebanese American referred to by xRayon is hardly an impartial source but interesting as a point of view nothing more" - this is what I actually wrote. If a Palestinian woman wrote about her experiences at the hands of the IDF I would listen to her views but I cannot consider it impartial either.

I don't see my post as an "antic" so kindly calm down to a frenzy.

#178. xRayon - "You seem far more reasonable and appear to be capable of a free, open minded and intelligent debate" - Thank you for the compliment but i think you will be in the minority thinking this. I am not an apologist for Stephanie or any other posters - I'm am sure they are big enough and ugly enough to stick up for themselves.

I did not wish to imply that Wikipedea is full of glaring errors and blatant falsehoods but there are some. None are obvious at the source you cited and I only wish I had taken note of the errors I found (they were to do with aspects of WW2 and not the Middle East conflict by the way). As I told PK at #179, I use Wikepedia quite often especially when the subject is not one well covered by my library.

Although several of the "Zionist cheer leaders" have called me a "Jihadist" on several occaisions (mostly as a smear word against those who do not agree with them), I have no more time for radical Islam than Wafa Sultan. Britain was (and to an extent still is) something of a safe haven for radical Muslim elements and I see them as a dangerous potential 5th column (I am sure that MI5 and other elements of the security services see it this way too). However to be too focal about this is to invite accusations of racism from the Looney Left and other sandal-wearing Guardian reader types.

#179

My post at #177 was my opinion formed as a result of your response to my early post. So, it's unnecessary or needless of you to tell me if you didn't state/write this or state/write that! That is irrelevant to talk about.

I'm glad you finally admitted (to xRayon) having failed to find any glaring errors or facts misrepresented from the links supplied by xRayon. So, what's your problem? I was only interested on M.E conflict and never referring to WW2.

Talking of the Christian Lebanese woman appeared on YouTube, I've found she was making her personal speech free of intimidation and stress. I believe it' her own free will to come forward to tell the truth. Of course, for those who are so blinkered and blinded by hatred of Israel, they would disagree with most of the things she said.

#182. P.K - I did not claim that the links provided by xRayon contained any errors so what is your problem other than your glaringly aparent arrogance?

"Talking of the Christian Lebanese woman appeared on YouTube, I've found she was making her personal speech free of intimidation and stress. I believe it' her own free will to come forward to tell the truth. Of course, for those who are so blinkered and blinded by hatred of Israel, they would disagree with most of the things she said" - and your point is?

#183

Wake up and open your eyes bigger. What this blather of yours?

I had never directly said that you'd claimed xRayon's links contained errors! I was merely pointing out your allegation of errors found in Wikipedia in reference to M.E conflict. That is what I meant to say and don't twist it! So, what is the problem with your eyes?

I don't get the meaning of your last words with regards to "and your point is?". If you have any doubt of the links, refer to xRayon.

I gave up reporting comments some time ago, it's useless. Letting idiots post is better, since people can see how they think.

#185. Dragomir - and to prove your point.....#184. Still don't know what his point is so either he is a last word freak or would start an argument in an empty house.

Not only that, Dragomir and James, it appears the zionists must have had a nasty talking to with the editors of the scotsman. Many of my posts have been removed because they say I am lying.

Yet there lies stay on the posts.

That is zionism for you.

Zionism=no free speech=even on a blog.

There 's a lot of good I say that they can't stand - the cowards.

James Donald #186

"...or would start an argument in an empty house"

Admittedly, this is off topic but that statement immediately made me think of graeme souness and craig bellamy LOL

#186

What an idiot you have become? It simply proves you have run out of anything constructive to argue with me! Again not surprisingly, you are trying to be too smart and yet, unable to grasp the actual meaning of the message in my post in so much as to twist my words to suit your whims and fancies. Shame on you!!

Frankly speaking, I don't know what you actually want out of asking this "and your point is" and NOT because I couldn't answer it! So, there's no need to make such rash childish remarks!

To understand me better, you can read my other comments at:
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=13&id=1822972006
#19, #24, #26
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=13&id=1783042006
#81

If you still fail to get my meaning, then very simple - don't respond and exchange posts with me in future!

#188. P.K - I have no intention of reading any of your posts again as I consider you to be a arrogant tube. I've read your guff before and it is mostly blinkered pro-Israeli crap.
You seem to have a very high opinion of yourself which I do not share so go pick an argument with Stephanie or someone of her ilk if you get your jollies from trading insults.

#189

Neither do I like reading all your sickening absurd, twisted logic and crappy conspiracy theories either! Lynne was right after all - you have been preaching lies and myths as facts, stirring up extreme racial hatred in this forum as clearly evidence from you numerous previous posts. Not to forget, you are too blind with prejudice and hatred for Israel that you couldn't see the truth!!

Mistake made on line 4: "from your numerous previous posts."

#189
You are no different at all, enjoying throwing insults at me and as arrogant as ever!!