Next stop .. 'the' Sun style headlines ...

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=S...

Successive British governments knew that oil wealth was on the way, yet conned Britain into joining the EC, and even gave away its fishing waters. How many billions of pounds have been poured into Brussels in the last thirty or so years?

According to President Barroso of the European Commission (see link), the EU's "internal hydrocarbon reserves are dwindling".

The four main parties in Scotland are European Unionist: in the event of Scottish independence, would it not be in Scotland's interest to join Norway outside the European Union?

http://www.freenations.freeuk.com/index.html

Can an oil-rich, independent Scotland be free inside the European Union?

Declining output is not restricted to the North Sea. All mature provinces - the big producers- are either declining or about to start declining within a few years. Not enough new discoveries are being found to maintain current global production once the big fields are past their best.

When the North Sea runs out the UK govt will see a huge drop in revenue and the UK will have to import scarce oil at enormous cost to our balance of payments.

We should be investing in infrastructure NOW for the future, to reduce our energy import needs once the North Sea oil dries up.

High-speed rail reduces fuel consumption by 4/5ths compared to short haul flying to London. Reduces CO2 at high altitude by 9/10ths. Removes the need for 4 million surface transfer journeys at the origin and destination airports. This reduces congestion on the roads and saves passengers from all the airport faff - saving total travel time. It frees up runway capacity too!

The cascade effects of high-speed rail go beyond reducing airport congestion. It frees up valuable capacity on existing railways for improved regional services and it allows more container freight to switch from road to rail. Rail is five times more fuel efficient than road haulage. Taking trucks off the roads saves fuel and eases congestion on our main arterial routes.

Is our government investing in such infrastructure like the rest of Europe? No they are not. They plan an expansion of aviation, the most polluting, fuel inefficient form of transport known to man. They are planning new runways and expensive over the top rail links to airports like Edinburgh with plans for a threefold expansion in passenger numbers over the next twenty years.

Reality it seems, must not get in the way of dreams of expanding the economy. There is a failure to realise that ignoring a problem does not make it go away. It's as though madness has taken over. They know fuel supplies are declining, that security, abundance

There is plenty of oil left for the next 20 years, but it is really just a side issue. Ireland does not need to rely on oil to be wealthy.

How about the Scotsman asking the experts why the Scottish economy underperforms England's in the Union?

Is it because Scots are stupid and lazy compared to the English? Or is it because of the political situation that favours centralisation on London?

I'd love to hear the Unionist response! "Scotland does worse because of the careful, kindly management from London."

Just wondering. Simply can't work out how Ireland is now managing to outperform England. They were considered too lazy and stupid by the English for years (rememeber the jokes?). Yet all along it was the policital situation that had led to the economic reality.

The big unanswered question is how much oil there is out in the Atlantic around Rockall etc. Maybe not exploitable economically now but with all the hype about "peak oil" there may yet be a second oil boom for Scotland.

If we cant stand on our own feet now....we deserve the enslavement thats coming

Good points from SC #6.

For me independence is the big thing. All the details of implementing it, however tricky, we can work out. It has been my experience travelling the globe over the last 25 years that an overwhelming majority of people think Scotland is part of England. I think the Scots need to govern Scotland. We'll do just fine without our neighbourly behemoth to look after us.

6. SC, Dundee - Ireland has done well because:

1. It reduced business tax: would the EU allow Britain or an independent Scotland to do this?

2. It invested strongly in education and training.

3. It received generous financial support from Brussels.

Hello, scottwebb.co.uk - you may have noticed that I've finally learned how to 'copy and paste'!

Comment@11 Terry, hehe, nice one dude :)

#6 SC, I don't think Ireland is 'outperforming' England. They can't truly be compared given the huge difference in size of the economies. Please also bear in mind that the UK's economy would also shoot ahead if its interest rates were artificially low as they are in Ireland because of the Euro. Fortunately for us, Gordon Brown (and I'm not a Labour supporter) has made the Bank of England independent and gone for steady long-term growth instead of boom-to-bust. A similar situation to Ireland's happened in Hong Kong prior to the handover in 1997. Everyone put their money into housing because it made no sense to keep it the bank. The housing market went down 60%. Ooops.

Comment@13 Royster, The Bank of England never was in public hands.....its private

It would be madness to base Scotland's future economic prospects on a single source of income. No successful corporate employs such a strategy. That doesn't necessarily mean that independence doesn't fly.

I think the moral and emotional case for a Scotland responsible for its own actions and accountable to itself has been made. The economic case is hindered by the fact that the principle sponsors, the SNP, are historically a socialist party. (And the trots lurk quietly in the shadows.) Independence needs to be driven a right of centre party committed to a market economy which will encourage enterprise to create alternative streams of revenue. Independence can't be sustained by paying ourselves giros based on punitive taxation.

This is why the Scottish Tories are simply a museum piece, accepting money under false pretences of being a political force with relevance to the electorate.

The gap in the political spectrum for an active, right of centre, pro-independence party is huge.

15. Ubi - you mean like this party?

http://www.scottishenterpriseparty.org/

I don't see any link between Independence and oil. Even if all the "oil" belonged to England, I would still want to be responsible for my own destiny. That means independence for my Scotland.

And if Scotland benefits from the UK as Tony and Gordon would want us to believe, what does England get in return? Or are they telling us the English are so obsessed with helping us, Scots, and probably they "kick" out of "subsidising" us? "I DON'T THINK SO".

All of this speculation about the possible impacts of independence on the economy is just that - speculation. It is difficult to say what the exact circumstances will be in that reconfigured country or just how much money will be liberated from the "peace dividend" of not having to fund new generations of nuclear weapons, or indeed from the savings gained by not paying for the London Olympics!

Returning to the main theme though, has anyone done a study of how the media predictions of Noth Sea Oil reserves varies as a function of time? I feel pretty sure that the pattern that would emerge would show that, curiously, in the months leading up to an election, predicted output and reserves drops dramatically, only to rise again after the election. Funny that.

#17 Steve I hope you are right, or we will all be a part of the United Russian Empire in 20 years.

#6 as for relevance to independence I agree with you, though I worry #13 Royster may be right --- still, there's no denying that right now Ireland is doing quite well, whereas 15 years ago they were fighting with Portugal for the poorest country in the EU.

But anyway, this article shows it was rubbish a couple days ago when the oil guys were whining about taxes, claiming that the drop off in North Sea oil was due to taxation; it's the reserves. Someone has to pay for collecting the garbage, delivering the post, and defense, and it may as well be those making money out of our natural resources.

It's Scotland's Water (the rivers and the seas) and it's Scotland's People! Who cares about dwindling oil? There's enough for a while yet! If we get to the end of it and have not found alternative energy, then the Earth is doomed in any case!

#1 Gordon, If you care about your country you'll vote for the SNP and not just post daft things about them.

When we do get a bit of power over things when do we decide to have a public holiday? In the springtime or towards the end of summer? No, in the bleak midwinter. We seem to have our own holidays already which tend to be when it is dark and cold whilst the rest of the UK chooses to takes these at warmer times.

#16 Thanks, I'll take a look at the link.

Oooooh what are we going to do without any Oil?
Ask the irish !Independence is in the bag .

1

It is now a matter of historical record (if you know what that means) that Scotland was conned out of billions.How could you possibly accuse anybody of being naive?
You are the political equivalent of having burglars in the house,but you dont know they are there,when it was you who opened the door to let them in,and now you want to help them load up the getaway van.

"North Sea oil production peaked in 1999 and gas production in 2001"........and you know what, The Scotsman and the so-called experts told us that North Sea Oil was running out back then too!!

Step one after next years election, get rid of Mike Gilson and establish a true Scottish press

Never mind the oil - that asset will be split up among the members of the former UK on a reasonable basis. That will take care of itself.

Instead, focus on the 300+ years of coal reserves lying under your feet that the London government make unusable due to their focus on what would benfit 'The City'.

I say, let's get with the Yanks and perfect clean(er) burning coal-use systems that can leave our oil assets for their higher use in the plastics, chemical and other industries.

I reckon that if you look at the assets we do have - oil, gas, coal, hydro, wind, criminal/junkie scum made to run treadmill power generators instead of sitting on their ass in jail watching TV; we already have far more power available for an INDEPENDENT NATION (i.e., SCOTLAND) of our size and population than we'll ever be able to use.

Let's start thinking outside the box before they put us in a box.

15 We are not stupid enough to base independence upon a single finite resource of course,although the Labour party tells their supporters that this is the case (*which speaks volumes for their intelligence)
The economy would take account of everything (of course)and we are only 5 million people which means we dont actually need an awful lot.Labour says we are too small to survive on our own,and Labour voters repeat this,totally oblivious to the fact that the world is full of countries as small if not smaller than Scotland and they are all doing very well!
It is worth bearing in mind that power could be generated north of the border from renewables (and is therefore infinite) and please remember that we have wave wind hydro solar and underwater tidal power (potentially)which collectively would generate the boost that oil revenues give us again according to a recent University study.
Scotland has a lot going for her and a small population which is why England want us!
I do however have one slight worry.The SNP say that our greatest resource is our people.They have obviously not met Chairman Gordon from the peoples republic of Raploch.

I like the Idea of Junkie scum on treadmills.

The rest of this , is crap.

I despise this Labour Party and I used to vote for them. Everything they say about Scotland is so negative and I am totally sick of them. Is it any wonder we lack a collective self-confidence as a nation?

Morris.

"It is worth bearing in mind that power could be generated north of the border from renewables (and is therefore infinite)"

Fantastic Mate, what have we been worrying about all these years when we obviously should have just spoken to you ?

Vote Special Needs Party , We dont know how to run a country , because we've never tried. We can make you misty eyed though-

29 I agree ,Im a labour voter ,Who is Going to vote SNP ,

Everyone always thinks of the Oil Business, as pumping oil, there are numerous other services the oil industry in Scotland provide globally.

#27. Morris, wake up. The English would vote themselves out of the union in about 5 seconds to save 11bn pounds a year. But, get this, they aren't even allowed a vote. They would also move the country somewhere to the right of Tebbitt regarding taxation. Do you honestly think Scotland could compete with a low tax England? Renewables is an industry for the future but that means billions spent on R&D with no guarantee of return, let alone profit.

I think it's great that the Scotsman is continuing it's campaign against Seperatism. They should be congratulated for showing biasm.

There was a time that this newspaper was an unbiased, slightly Edinboro-centric broadsheet. It is now a biased, female centric tabloid.

33,

What on earth is your problem? You are like the Rev IM Jolly. NOTHING you say is remotely positive about Scotland.

1#

Name calling, is that the best you can do !

Good comment about not paying for the English olympics. I'm sure just about everyone north of the Watford Gap could see it far enough. We will pay for it, London will benefit.

well said SC #6. westminster propoganda for the past 300 yrs has tried to make scots and irish think that they are inferior. right back to the start of the union, westminster's first policies were to make scots a language of the "stupid" despite its tradition of fine literature. independence is not about oil.

#10 and 13, ireland is outperforming england and it is comparible. royster i've noticed a lot of your polarised comments over time but this is the most ridiculous. ignore it and it might not be true???

yes ireland got a kick start from EU money but that stopped a long time ago. They were in a remarkably worst situation then, than we are now. We have infrastructure etc which is what the majority of irish eu money paid for at the time. It kick started ireland to catch up to a position that we are in now. And remember it only kick started, all major infrastructure work now, which is considerable, is taxpayer funded.

Over the past 10-15yrs what you see is a dynamic small economy playing the hand that suits it, encouraging investment in all sectors from europe and america, changing taxes etc and regulation to suit its needs. they will continue to suit their needs regardless of what the EU says and that #10 is what scotland will and must do. remember ireland is in the EU also. also, yes they invested in education and training, but we have this in place in scotland and as a result a lot of scots are filling skill gaps here in eire.

certainly low interest rates have helped drive consumer spending, however this is recognised and as in the past, policies will change to suit to ensure continued growth.

the bottom line from #6 is correct. The irish have proven the stereo type propogated by the english (re scots and irish) as complete nonsense and are showing that a small country, to be wealthy and successful, has to run its own affairs to suit its needs rather than than the colonists. we should do, and can do, the same.<

#33. Royster
Sounds familiar.

Remember Maggie's dark warnings of an English backlash should Scots be so ungrateful as to vote for Devolution?

http://www.margaretthatcher.org/speeches/displaydocument....

"The English would vote themselves out of the union in about 5 seconds to save 11bn pounds a year. But, get this, they aren't even allowed a vote. "

If the English set up and voted for a party that gave them a referendum on leaving the Union then they could. Why not think before you post for a change!

[13] Royster: Here we go again. You really do have a problem with measurements and statistics don't you? Just last week you were lambasted for failing to understand the difference between relative and absolute measures. Seems you didn't take it on board.

England has a bigger economy than Ireland. This is an issue of magnitude. It has absolutely nothing to do with performance.

Performance is a relative measure and compares the gain (output) from a given amount of input. Economic perfomance is typically measured in GDP per capita, ie. the amount of money/wealth or widgets generated by an individual.

I cannot see how you can assert that Ireland is not outperforming England when everybody else here accepts that. Either you know something the rest of us don't or you simply don't understand measures of performance. From the above I conclude its the latter.

#27 +#33
Read what the guy at the sharp end has to say,the professional oil man, rather than the propaganda merchants.

The Future of the North Sea: a Perspective
Speaker: Lord Browne
Speech date: 17 January 2006
Venue: Aberdeen's Exhibition and Conference Centre
Title: BP Group Chief Executive

""...Energy security is an issue which is receiving a great deal of attention today.

Some of that attention is based on the mistaken view that oil is running out, or on the fear that countries such as the UK, which are no longer self-sufficient in natural gas, are becoming ever-more vulnerable to shortages and price increases.

Those fears, I believe, are unjustified...""

http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=98&con...

#41. Micropacer
Exactly.
But as it is 500-odd 'English' MPs at Westminster are being dominated by 72 Scottish MPs? get real.

I was actually starting to hold out some hope for the Scotsman. I thought it had stolen the Herald's old mantle of relative impartiality, which is now no more than a distant memory. I thought we were in for some impartial reporting on the issues for once. I thought we'd see fair editorials. I thought we'd see neutral headlines. How wrong Iwas.
It's back to the same.

When independence comes, we should turn the Scotsman's offices into a retirement home for cowardly unionist lackey journalists. Isn't that right Douglas Alexander?

The economy, this; the economy, that... Oil, this; oil, that...
But surely, we are missing the point.
Independence is not just about how well Scotland would survive; it is actually primarily about creating a new form of citizenship (read: new rights and new duties).
So (to me) the one-billion euro question should be: how costly - politically, in the broadest sense of the word - this new citizenship? Or put differently: independence = freedom (=?) for whom?

What's all this about oil? We know it's temporary, so what? Plenty wind and waves here, not to mention a rather super little hydrogen energy plant way up in Unst. We'll manage, thank you very much. #39 - spot on.

Alasdair @46

You're on the button there mate. All the best reporters for the Scotsman have left or will be leaving shortly due to the malignant pap that this paper reports (or not reports as is the case). We have opinion based reports instead of FACT based reports.

A wider perspective.

The EU are worried about where energy will come from in the future. Terry's link tells us that the President of the Commission (JMD Barroso) is alarmed; he said recently: "The European Union is already the largest importer and second largest consumer of energy in the world. We are currently dependent on external sources for 50% of our energy needs. This could rise to 70% by 2030. . . the idea of maintaining 27 separate European mini markets in energy is absurd. Absurd and dangerous, given the global changes already underway in this field."

Global changes? Economic nationalism is on the rise. The United States will likely outbid EU countries for whatever supplies of energy become available in the global market, it is reported today.

Mr Barroso says the answer is to act together on a crucial problem. Is he right?

The Scotsman/the Britishman is so one sided.
'The Experts'
Lets call them 'The Inteleweligent People'

#48. Haggismaker

Forget Scargill's legacy, old king coal can yet be the fuel of the future, we have 300 years of easily winnable coal, abandoned under Thatcher as a political expedient.

http://business.scotsman.com/markets.cfm?id=120772006

Never mind Unst, what about Peterhead?

The Carbon Capture System they are working on there is a world's first and will give another 20years of oil production out of the Miller field, which was previously regarded as exhausted for commercial recovery.

PLUS saving co2 emissions equivalent to output from 400,000 cars.

BP and SSE plan for clean energy power station at Peterhead, increasing oil recovery and reducing emissions.

http://www.peterheadhydrogenpower.com/go/doc/1141/116400/

If the North Sea oil reserves are finite, then all the more reason for Scotland to control them.

Instead of guzzling it as fast as possible to enrich large multinationals, maybe we should restrict the flow to sustain it as long as possible.

A vote for independence is a vote for world peace.

If we take back the Scotland's oil from clutches of these meglomanical war criminals in Downing Street. It would lessen their motivation to send our kids on adventures to kill families in foreign lands. They do this in order to keep oil costs high and thereby suck out the wealth from us all and freeze to death our poor and elderly.

So please vote against the powers that be and vote for the powers that do, us.

30
I agree we dont know how to run a country! Just look at what we elected to represent us in Westminster and Holyrood!
The prospect of Union JackMac or Cathy Jamieson being left in charge of themselves,never mind anybody else does little to inspire me.
It goes without saying that every nation which has become independent had no experiencce prior to that.There has not been a single instance of one which wanted to go back to their imperialist past,and they started with a lot less than Scotland has.
It might be a wee while yet,but Scotland is leaving and you had better get used to the idea.We might as well go sooner rather than later (in case the big bad wolf which you Unionists are always carping on about really does have teeth)!

Attempts to boil the Scottish Parliamentary elections down to the price of a barrel of oil will bore Scots off the ballot box. Such tactics might provide another term for Jack McConnell but what of his mandate to govern?

Do we have to put up with this he says this and that rubbish till next May? I note even on the BBC website the one sided unionist view is never challenged, just look at the response to the SNP and Tory positions on council tax. If the Scotsman wants to participate in the debate then a more even handed approach would be advised, not these so called academics who have never been more that 100 yards offshore of Girvan in a rowing boat

And I will say it again, the election in May is to rid ourselves of Labour. It IS NOT an election for independence (yet). It is not about wither ma granny still gets to see eastenders, its about wither the new MSP's can be a grip of local services, ASB, policing, a fairer council tax etc. etc. So far Labour has failed, time and time again.

Sorry to change the thread but the Scotsman has just issued a censorship clause on one of their articles it now says.

Thanks for your comment. Comments on this article must be approved by our moderator before being displayed.

Free Speech eh?

#60
Here here. One step at a time. Oil is not my concern . Its what this present government does with this nations contributions in total which I oppose and I need a government which doesn,t murder people in my name.

?

HarryArgyll

That's just you being moderated. My ? @63 was a wee test to see if it was accross the board.

Sorry pal, it seems to be your turn to be censored...........

#6
Never encountered a more clever and hardworking nation of people than I found in Ireland . (except Scotland that is)

#61 - Yes -now on TWO of their discussions. Sectarianism and the Ripper - I didn't see anything more offensive than on any other day or on most other articles. (eg anti English / anti Nats / anti politician rhetoric here). Censorship from the Scotsman? (especially on the one talking on religious sectarianism - is it appropriate that the head of the Church of Scotland gets editorial censorship on articles? ;->

#1 Chairman Gordon

I take offence at your comment.

My family have been hard working Labour supporters for generations. It is not a naive whim that has caused them to turn towards the SNP.

I travel extensively around the globe and it makes me sick to the core watching Scotland lag behind similar small countries. To say naivety is the reason why people are switching to the SNP smacks of arrogance.

Of course I do not know who much life experience you’ve had outside Scotland, but from what I’ve seen we can make a better go of it on our own.

I understand it’s easy for the lay person on the street to hoodwinked and scared off by the constant barrage of pro-Unionist propaganda from the likes of the Scotsman. But at the end of the day this is about how we see ourselves as a nation and how we wish our lives to be governed.

It’s the norm in any democratic society that the opposition party comes to power at some stage. If the people of Scotland take this bold step come May, I and many others like me will be heading homeward.

Dave (astro here) , it is being moderated, its the sectarian one suprise suprise.

58
Unfortunately if the scots decide that another term of the same is what they want then theres little we can do about it except point out the facts .
If your average Labour voter continues to spout such intelligent observations as theyre just a bunch o tartan tories,there will be border posts and the oil disnae belong to scotland etc ,and dont have sufficient brains to realise they have been made fools of (sorry not made, they were fools anyway)then there is very liitle we can do about it. How do you explain to an imbecile that he is an imbecile.He would probably say Thank You!
I understand fully the point that you make,and I suspect you are correct ,but we cant just give up because some other people never engaged their brain and returned to watching Corrie !
Im afraid we are doing all that we can do,and there is no magic formula,but there may be a possibilty that public opinion will be enough to generate a majority.Whatever the outcome it will be what the people decide.
Thats another piece of rubbish which has been fired at Scotland :the slippery slope! Scotland is part of a democracy (well its supposed to be) and there is no slippery slope,only the democratic wishes of the people just as there is no settled will of the people because what they think today may not be what they think tomorrow.Youve all heard the labour supporters repeating this drivel,and its pretty obvious to most people that they believe it!
What you do about this is educate them.How many learn anything remains to be seen.

If Scots dont vote for Independence in 2007 by the time 2011 comes round another £30-£40bn worth of north sea oil revenues will have been syphoned off by London to pay for more stupid British militarism and more nuclear weapons. Why waste this money when we can vote for Independence and enjoy Scotland's Peace Dividend.

We will benefit from oil, sure. But a very big financial gain will also come from not having to stump up umpteen £billions for renewing Trident, as Tony tells us we must. There's no declining benefit from that over the coming years, to say nothing of the moral satisfaction of knowing that we are out of that unjustifiable, bully boy's arms race.

#68 LTT - It's not just the debate on Sectarianism that has been moderated (closed I think) it's also the one on the serial killer in Ipswich, which has become a discussion on Capital Punishment. Two important issues that need public debate. Two censored conversations. So, boys and girls, please don't say ANYTHING controversial here - BB is watching!

Terrible weather, isn't it!

I have been a frequent poster on the issue of independence recently. I was a supporter but now I'm not so sure. Have any of you been reading the posts on insitutional sectarianism (in todays paper). They are positively frightening. I fear that an independent Scotlands Presbyterian majority would turn on it's RC minority just like in NI. I have never read such pure hatred against another religion in my life (and God knows we in Ireland used to be well acquainted with it). Maybe it's not time.

Well, I suppose instead of moaning about the threads I was on being stamped on, may as well join the debate..
#70 Aesop - good point - Independence would also help the rest of the UK, as they then probably couldn't afford Trident, therefore making the whole island safer...

I'm always amazed that this discussion just comes down to money - if it's something that we feel in our hearts that we want to do, we should do it. There are many other small nations in Europe who are doing quite well without being joined at the hip to an ex-global superpower...

I kno wflash , its been cloudy and rainy here in holland for weeks, I dont know when i can put the washing out, its causing me no end of heartache.. etc !

yes, capital punishment , even though we decided lng ago to do away with it.

Is there a straight link from the Daily Mail to this site?

The unionists say: Bristow Muldoon, Labour policy forum: "An independent Scotland would have to subsidise rail and road routes that currently make enough money from working across borders."

So now labour are claiming that, miraculously, all road and rail routes would stop at the border. How does one travel across Europe? Do you have to change trains or unload goods trains at every border?
Some the Unionist comments are bordering on the hysterical. I work in a country smaller than Scotland with almost no resources and it got independence long before it was accepted into Europe so built up it's economy without the Euro. It can be done.
The Unionists claims are an insult to everyone working in Scotland. They basically denigrate the people in Scotland by claiming they couldn't go it alone.
Hopefully it will come about so I can get my Scottish passport, get my wife and kids Scottish citizenship and move back to help make independence viable.

#73 Gerry
Gerry - don't take the comments on that thread as typical of Scotland - we ain't all religious bigots (is that a tautology?) Increasingly, people here and elsewhere are coming to dislike Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, Islam, and any other religious belief system equally.
(As John Lennon said 'Imagine there's no heaven... nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too!)

NO1 GORDON. Do you set your alarm or are you still up at 0157. It is quite alarming to think there are people in Stirling prepared to sit at a keyboard at that ungodly hour just to have a pop at the SNP. Just because your paranoid, does not mean the barstewards are not out to get you.
Regarding this report, are you really asking anyone to accept that the unioinsticals and new labour do not indulge in propaganda. I'm sure you have read the McCrone report. Yes Yes I know it was 30 years ago but it highlights exactly what lies and propaganda the unionistical establishment is prepared to stoop to, in order to preserve their gravy train. What else is there, McCrone was only unearthed after much digging and use of the freedom of information act by the SNP. Do you think if it shown the opposite it would have been buried? As we can all see there is not an ounce of credibility left amongst that bunch of criminals and carpetbaggers. Here is some genuine information for you. http://www.energybulletin.net/20265.html
The level of oil on the North Sea dipstick goes up and down with the popularity rating in the polls of the SNP. No mention is made of the treasure to the West of the Hebrides. Oh I forgot that is far to deep and we have no technology to drill there. Yet!
For the record I am recovering from surgery and not working at the moment.
Gordon you spend an awful long time on the keyboard. Are you one of labours cyber drones in their rebuttal cellar, or do you work for the executive. Either way you seem to have a lot of time on your hands. Try getting a life. Get some FREEDOM.

The expert says: David Begg, former government adviser on transport: "It all depends on the government in power. Scotland has had record levels of investment in transport and I would question how an independent Scotland could sustain that."

Sorry but not exactly unbiased is he, considering he was the former city council transport chief (Labour Councilor)

Once again the Scotsman, in common with the rest of the Scottish Media, writes a biased article intended to instil fear amongst the Scottish Electorate. Once again our media is subjugating the democratic will of the people of Scotland. The people of Scotland however, are the Sovereign Power in this country, and they have never, ever sanctioned membership of the Brittish Union, that is what the Brits are terrified of. It's time to stop piddling around with little polls everywhere and ask the people of Scotland right accross their Nation "Do you want Independence for Scotland?" No gerrymandering of such a referendum can be allowed. That is the question, pure and simple, Get on with it.

Alex Salmond says we're the Saudi Arabia of renewable energy. IF we're still in the Union when that comes to fruition I wouldn't be completely surprised if the Unionists announced THAT was going to run out!

#75 Tommy -
..or could we maybe just go to the Mail conversation pages on this topic and continue there (it may have facsists for readers and writers, but at least their discussion pages may be less cen***ed!)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news....

Astro

Got you bud. BTW, they really don't like you do they? Another name change!!

After independence ,The Nuclear bases Would have to Stay in Scotland Unpopular or not ,The English Gvt and tax payers Would have to pay Scotland to keep it there ,England is Crammed full of people,There is no where in England it would go.So maybe those payments Would help with scottish transport,

1 What would we be whinging about? The Scotsman has just confirmed that it really is Scotlandl's oil.

So that's the end of that argument isn't it?

Post 73 get real. Scotland does not have a Presbyterian majority. Practically nobody goes to church these days or gives a toss about religion one way or another.

#85 Eric -
I disagree, it would be closed down pretty rapidly here, and there is no way, politically or financially a new Trident base would be built in England (maybe they could bribe Wales though?) so, as I said earlier, an Independent Scotland would make England safer as well.
An independent Scotland is the only way to get rid of this thing, and Son of Trident. On this issue alone, we should vote for Independence.
ps - I too think the SNP are, on the whole, a bunch of tos**rs, but after we have independence we can vote them out in our first 'real' parliamentary elections, can't we!

88 True ,Most Descent folk dont bother about religion

And the North Sea is also important for all those who consume oil and gas, in the UK and beyond, because it has provided, and can continue to provide, a secure source of supply in a complex and volatile world.

Energy security is an issue which is receiving a great deal of attention today.

Some of that attention is based on the mistaken view that oil is running out, or on the fear that countries such as the UK, which are no longer self-sufficient in natural gas, are becoming ever-more vulnerable to shortages and price increases.

Those fears, I believe, are unjustified.

On Natural Gas, in particular, we do not share the view - which appears to have become entrenched in some circles - that supplies will run short in the UK this winter.

You can never rule out any remote possibility entirely, but the chances of a shortage are very limited indeed

VIEW THE REST OF THIS HERE. RED HERRINGS ARE IN DANGER OF BECOMING EXTINCT DUE TO OVERUSE.
http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=98&con...

I see the keyboard warriors of the SNP are out gain

Its time,

Its time,

Its time,

Its time,

Its time,

Its time,

Its time,

Its time,

Its time,

how boring

Be sure that you all vote now. It's on the right hand side of the Headline. It's at 77% for 23% against and 1% undecided. That makes a total of 101% which is a reflection of Scotland today!

89 yes i understand what you are saying ,But we all know That London just wont leave it at that,And The USA would be right behind England ,I do really think The Scots GVT would be turned And Go along with it,

Eric - #94
Agree to disagree on that.

ps - like you're comment on religion in post #90 - "most descent folk don't bother about religion" - I know it was a typo, but think it works this way as well, with a sideways reference to those who have read Darwin!! ;-)

(84) Nowhere in my post did I support sectarianism or apartheid. (88) I can't believe your comments about Scots being disinterested in religion. Have you read the anti-Catholic comments? They were so bad that the thread had to be closed. It seems that when you Scots are confronted with uncomfortable facts your response seems to be to denigrate and insult the messenger. How sad. Again, I have never read such frightening posts in my life.

No to Independence and No to failure! We need the union, its a bitter pill to swallow but its the truth!

#88
In this country the folks who make the most fuss about their religion are only religious on a Sturday and never darken the doors of the local kirk or chapel, exept for weddings and funerals.

95 .When i said Most descent People .I meant the Majority of People in Scotland who dont bother with religion

it's called divide and rule.
Play on existing suspicions and play them up.
It's how the British Empire was built and maintained for so long

Hey ahma hunnerup!

Seems to me that there was no chance for Scottish independence during the Cold War and once oil and gas were found in the North Sea.

With the Cold War over and the oil running out, I suspect England will be happy to see Scotland go in ten or twenty years.

#97. Media 1, Cape Town
How would you know the truth from what somebody tipped out of a chanty over you?

Is there the remotest chance that any of you lot will do an honest day's work instead of replying to posts all day long when we get independence?

Having been brought up a Catholic in Embra, #96, I was never aware of any bias. As i've got older, I've realised that there are morons on any side of the arguement you care to choose. I'ts called religion, something only the psychologically damaged follow.

Does that answer your question.

Media1, you're in Cape Town! What do you know?

I know that my country is not equipped to go it alone! The braveheart warriors are nothing more than a hinderance to Scotland's economic future.

Media 1, you havent got a clue.
Stay in South Africa with all the other bitter narrow minded colonials.

And just who is Tony MaKay – Oil Expert? Who say’s he’s an Expert and what does that mean. I suspect he may be a PR stunt man for the London based Government who are increasingly concerned that they have been found out by we peasants from the North. Too right they have!!

I spent the second half of my working life in the Oil Industry, including some time in the North Sea. One thing I did learn in that time was that the Oil Companies are far more competent at concealing the truth than any politician. The limitation of the company tax liability depends on it! So forget what your told by the industry or at least look for the hidden agenda and tax implications.

I do not disagree with the statement that oil resources are decreasing world wide. They are a finite resource and the more we extract the less there is – it’s not rocket science. This said, there is more left than we have extracted thus far. We have taken the oil that is easy to get at. In the early stages the oil came out of the well under pressure, now we are having to pump it out and develop techniques to release the oil from the rock that contains it. So basically, there isn’t a shortage of oil it is just becoming more difficult and more expensive to produce.

Is more expensive oil a danger to the Oil Co’s bottom line? No! The normal market supply and demand will dictate a price increase to more than compensate for increased production costs. In an independent Scotland the government has only to create the right incentive for the sudden discovery of “previously unknown” fields. New EOR techniques applied to increase recovery and the profits. It’s all about the bottom line.

If Scotland were to control the production such that they produced only enough for their own requirements and enable a low energy cost economy then the oil supply would last over a hundred years. Energy costs are a major factor in creating a competitive economy.

Salmond is right in his proposal to to invest

105. Peter, Kirkcudbright / SPOT ON. / New labour represent a hypocrisy not a democracy.

Would posters please ignore Media 1 and Royster. They may be the same person. Whatever; their comments are nonsense and I suspect like MacKay they are in the fulltime pay of Londinstan as disrupters of the argument in Scotland.
They are the modern version of Daniel Defoe and play the same role today that Defoe did in 1707

Well well! A free Scotland is what they want, yet if your opposed to their views they shout you down. Is it maybe a communist Scotland that your after?

The union is the best option of the 2!

#112
I dissagree, the more that numpties like this are exposed to the cold hard light, the more the cause of Scottish self determination is helped.

The more they patronise us puir simple minded souls the more we see their position for what it is.

No let them keep blethering, we've been listening to the same broken record for decades.
At first it is annoying but then you get used to it and don't really hear it anymore.

Theres only certain types of communism that works and Same goes for Democracy,Scotland is hardly communist,

I say again, something that I've said a few times over the past weeks ....

SCOTLAND IS TOO SOCIALIST TO SURVIVE INDEPENDENTLY IN A GLOBAL MARKETPLACE.

Other points :-

Scotland is a world leader in satellite sub-sea wellheads, so if there is any opportunity for Atlantic production, we have the technology (could be exploited globally too).

The Scandanavian countries don't compare very favourably in the GDP versus R&D investment stakes and in fact, Norway is particularly poor at investing in R&D using it's oil revenues.

An independant Scotland would have to move extermely quickly to consolidate a position in the commercial "place to be" market. This would entail slashing business rates, corporation tax and no doubt paying sweetners too. This will inevitably cause instant grief for the economy and we would have to borrow heavily (Scotland Plc doesn't have reserves to draw on) to sustain it.

Public sector jobs would required considerable cutback (they need that right now anyway) with displaced employees having to find real work in (initially) assisted exporting industries to fund their salaries.

It would be painful!

I've said before, I believe that Royster, Media 1, Bumsfeild Echelon_x,y,z etc, could well be nationalist plants.

Their anti independance blathering only detracts from the Unionist case, such as it is.
England loves you and will cry if you leave her.(bunny boiler)

How's the aparthied going in South Africa Media 1?

Im acatholic Who Loves Rangers My Neice Loves celtic My Mum was catholic who likes Rangers ,We all Love each other

There ive said it

eric

There are other teams in the Scottish league you could "love" you know. Why Rangers and Celtic? Is it because they are competitive and the competition is borne of religion?

#118 DAVE: As far as I am aware it is going strong! Black Economic Empowerment is forcing Indians, Whites, Chinese and other ethnic groups to relocate overseas! So all in all quite well I think.

Shame really, the people of this nation inherited a nation with all the bells and whistles of a top European nation and in 20 years there will be nothing but desolation. So yes, quite well!

No just because it was my local team ,My neice was living in the east end and made celts her local team .Nothing wrong with that is there.

Dunno eric, is there?

Would there be shame in your family if you decided to support, say, Partick thistle or Hibs or Hearts?

Media 1

Of course, White Man Magic is the only true power, isn't it?

#116 As far as world leaders in Well Heads is concerned, you cannot look beyond INTEC! Hardly Scottish are they?

#116
Righto (pardon the pun)thanks for that heads up on the socialism thing.

Didn't Union Jack tell you that Thatcherism is the new socialism.
Uncle Tony has long been an admirer of hers.
New Labour; can't beat 'em? Join 'em!

The old 'red flag' was turning pink but is now a shade of pale purple having been in the wash with some true blues.

One Nation conservative socialists.

So, no worries there then?

124 No there isnt .Only other people think its strange,And yes if i was from Maryhill i would support Partick ,or from Motherwell Etc etc.

livilion, i can agree with most of what your saying (not just because your from west lothian also), but i'm getting fed up with all this speculation of what might and not might happen. you should try not regret what you did in life (with certain exceptions) only what you didnt. i think scotland should go for it. i was one of the many labour voters in the west lothian strong hold, not now. i now dont trust them in what they say or do.

#122. Media 1, Cape Town
Do I under stand that you are mourning the passing of a land owning elite who lined their own pockets with the bounty of the country's natural resources, while the 'natives' were too pre-occupied in fighting each other to notice?

Hmm, where do I recognise this scenario from?

two observations about todays posts.
1) The first says for us to epxect the usual whinging from the nationalists... very strange as the whinging actually comes from the unionists.
2) According to experts, the nationalists and the unionists in the main piece, independence is the best way forward for Scotland.

Unionist translation from the main points above:-
TRANSPORT: What would happen to Scotland's transport network?
The unionists say: Bristow Muldoon, Labour policy forum: "An independent Scotland would have to subsidise rail and road routes that currently make enough money from working across borders."

erm, wibble...

RESERVES
THE UNIONISTS SAY: Derek Brownlee, the Tories' Holyrood finance spokesman, says: "The real question is when it is no longer commercially viable. That depends on the oil price, the costs of extracting the oil, including the tax regime, and the level of reserves available. It's difficult to tell how these factors will combine."

more wibble, given the importance of this diminishing resource, does anybody expect oil porices to reduce? It appears so...

REVENUE
THE UNIONISTS SAY: Malcolm Bruce, the president of the Liberal Democrats, says: "Ball-park figures might be £40 billion; £20 billion and £10 billion - a small and declining proportion of the revenue required to fund Scotland's public services."

erm even more wibble. Even the treasury admit it will be over £10billion every year for the next six years. We've still another 40 on top of that (and haven't even looked at the atlantic seaboard).

SCOTLAND'S SHARE
THE UNIONISTS SAY: Mr Bruce says: "A total of 100 per cent of what falls north of any median line would be Scotland's, but settling of that could create a long-term dispute."
THE BOUNDARY
THE UNIONISTS SAY: Lord Foulkes, vice-chairman of Labour's Scottish election campaign, says: "By looking for a f

One day it is the methane that is the cause of global warming, and it is all Scotlands farmers fault, the next day it is we are not going to be able to heat the house, what kind of idiots have you elected? I realise that the word idiot is perhaps not strong enough but I don't want to offend those in mental institutions

C
To try and to fail is acceptable, to be too feart to try should not be an option.

How could we do any worse than the shower that have 'looked after' us up till now?

113. Media 1, Cape Town
Wrong again moron! I'm just fed up with your continuous unsupported drivel. Given the number of posts you make it would seem that this is your full time job confirming my suspicions as stated in my last post; to which you have replied as always by offering abuse instead of cogent answers.

The Nowegian example could've been a good one. They kept a percentage back from day one of the oil find and now sit on a huge fund which bankrolls socially useful policies throughout the country. Howver, a large chunk of our oil money has gone to London and been frittered away on wars, trident and expensive privitasion experiments.

Oil would still be useful but remember we have more than most wee nations. Maybe a better headline would be, 'Will London still want Scotland after the oil runs out?'.

#132
They are not the idiots, they think that's us, after all we keep voting them in.

Scotland's destiny is in our own hands

Not many people realise it but after the treaty of union Scotland’s official designation was North Britain, and people used to write NB at the bottom of a letter rather than Scotland.

We know that this upset some of our historic contemporaries like Robert Louis Stevenson who complains in a letter to a friend "Don't put `NB' on your paper, put Scotland and be done with it ... the name of my native land is not North Britain, whatever may be the name of yours."

Robert Burns was similarly concerned about his country’s identity writing "Alas, I have often said to myself what are the boasted advantages which my country reaps from a certain Union that counterbalance the annihilation of her Independence, and even her name!"

Sir Walter Scott said "All must center in London... What are we esteemed by the English? Wretched drivellers, incapable of understanding our own affairs; or greedy speculators, unfit to be trusted? On what ground are we considered either as one or the other?"

However Hugh MacDiarmid probably summed it up best when he wrote "Without it's own culture, Scotland will remain a slave."

We owe a great debt to MacDiarmid, to Sir Walter Scott, Burns and the rest for defending our identity during the height of the Empire and beyond and it is probably true to say that without the actions of patriots like them our identity as Scots could have been snuffed out. Of course we can also look back to the heroic deeds of Sir William Wallace and King Robert the Bruce who fought England to a standstill and guaranteed our national independence for four hundred years.

Today most Scots according to the opinion polls support full self government for Scotland. Devolution, though it was a hundred years delayed, and denied undemocratically for twenty years has encouraged us to realise we can have normal powers for Scotland whenever we choose to vote for i

To all of you who are harping on about how I am pro English and bla bla bla!

Firstly, why England?

Wales and Northern Ireland are also our partners in this union. Or due to your inherent hatred of England, did you forget that they existed?

If the people of Scotland had wanted independence, they would have had it a long time ago.

The SNP began to stir emotions by coining the phrase "Its our OIL" Offcourse they could care less about the oil, they only want what every other politician wants and thats power.

Do I like the union? Well I dont dislike it. Would I rather have an independent Scotland? Yes I would, but its too late for that now, I accept that and I get on with it.

You should to, or you will live to reap the downfall of your myopic braveheart visions.

Methinks Donald Findlay is alive and well and opening in South africa.

The choice in May is going to be more of the same negativity with Scottish New Labour/New Labour/Scottish Labour/Labour, or a positive approach with ambition and attitude. Even if I was a unionist I would choose the SNP.

btw Our Hootsmon article states:

""...Without oil, even the SNP's own figures would show that Scotland was running a substantial deficit. The black gold, discovered in the 1960s and on stream by the 1970s, is the fuel which powers the SNP's internal combustion engine...""

The Dutch discovered North Sea Gas in the 50's. The Southern North Sea Gas Fields came on stream piped into East Anglia in the 60's, but North Sea Oil was not discovered until 1970, came ashore in 1975, but did not arrive in commercial quantities until 1980.

Need I say more?

Hey Media 1!

What is it to you what we, the people of Scotland do? Unless you intend to come back here to live and work (assuming you have heritable Scottish Rights) then your opinion, albeit is valid, has been made many moons ago and is now going against the grain of general consensus.

Given that, we, The People of Scotland, sincerely ask you to stop your unionist pap and if you are not for us you are agin us.

#137 Nicely put Joe and a welcome relief from the inane unionist ramblings that litter this thread .

Nice to see te scotsman using experts with no political ties - like David Begg, ex-Edinburgh (Labour) councillor!

#138 Media 1 - Its NEVER too late!

Scotland is a basket case, scotland has the same population give or take a few thousand than Yorkshire and the Humberside, the dependency of scots on hand outs is far higher than Yorkshire and the Humber, you should be ashamed of yourselfs
If scotland raises so much income tax you can be sure Yorkshire and the Humber raise even more!

http://193.115.152.21/100pc/stgp/comb/ccgor/a_carate_r_co...

I didn't know Yorkshire and Humber had oil in their coastal waters The Answer??

Also, if that's the case The Answer, why is England (Westminster) crying out to hang onto us? Surely they can survive on all the revenues created in Yorkshire and Humberside, no?

Dave, There's all the revenue from the Hull City games. The Answer, there is no such place as Humberside - it's back to East Yorkshire now.

#129: Nah not really, you can only build the largest and most successful economy on the continent if you have the faculty of mind to do so!

Pity its all going to waste, but so what! Make the tonnes of cash here now and get out just before its destroyed.

#138. Media 1

""..Would I rather have an independent Scotland? Yes I would, but its too late for that now, I accept that and I get on with it..""
Since when did it become too late for Scotland to vote for Independance?

We(men & women) only got the vote during the aftermath of WWI.

During the 'Great Strike', Westminster and Whitehall used the army to put down dissent.

Next thing you know we're in the Great Depression, quickly followed by WWII.

Post WWII we had the full blown Cold War and any hint of anti-Westminster sentiment was put down ruthlessly and quietly.
Remember Matt Lygate and the Workers Party for Scotland?
No neither does anyone else.
He was given 'life' for robbing a bank to fund his party. Similar offences normally would warrant perhaps a 5year sentence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers_Party_of_Scotland

The first opportinity to gain any level of self government took until 1979 to achieve a referendum, (and then only because Labour needed the SNP votes to keep their Lib-Lab pact coalition going for a few more months). which again was fixed in favour of Westminster and Whitehall.
McCrone even prompted the spectre of military intervention if Scotland went too quickly down the road to Self Determination.

With the media swamped with pro Union propaganda 24/7-365, it is a wonder that the Nationalist momentum ever got moving in the first place.

To now be the majority position in Scotland just gives some indication of the level of feeling there now is in Scotland to throw off our Colonial past and take our full position within the community of nations.

Royster

The city games is money from paying punters and isn't an asset nor commodity. The oil is a physical commodity that can be sold on the open market.

Lets not get confused here.

Media 1, you stil haven't answered my question put to you in 142.

dave #152 I already explained it in 138 san

Say 'No' to partition on the island of Britain. Vote for the Union. A free nation unconquered by foreign armies in almost 1,000 years. A nation so tolerant that it never can quite manage to issue ID cards (and if it ever did, the info would be so wrong the thing would be worthless). A nation so patriotic that it doesn't feel the need to hang out flags. God, this country is brilliant. The true home of freedom, equality before the law, enlightenment and good governance.

Media 1
Why do you think independence is "too late"?

The wingeing you get on the Bots-man is totally incoherent. Why would run this this biased campaign against independence when there article makes it clear that Scotland can control itself economically?

The oil is running out, just like we've known since we all did science 2b at school, but the article tells us that there remains billions of pounds worth of barrels.

Then there is the right to self determination.

Do we want the chance to not follow the UK and America around all the time? How about having our own Scottish passports (blue of course), or even being seen as equal entities to France or Ireland or the Netherlands?

Quick get the ambulance! Royster's finally flipped out.

The Answer

If you're "the answer" what the heck was the question?

Media 1

Comment 138 is BEFORE my comment 142 so there you DIDN'T answer MY question. Nae very bricht are ye son?

The Answer

Fine, then you'll be glad to get shot of us "scotts" then. Enough said. Close the door behind you on the way out will you, you're letting Media Driven Sun Reading Unionist pap draft in.

Stupid dave The Answer?? You didn't even know that Humberside doesn't exist anymore and it's East Yorkshire. Thick or what?? Also, it's "Scots" not "scotts".

You can leave too, you haven't a braincell that functions properly. Glad we don't have to support these thickos for very much longer, they would only bring us down.

Dearie me......

#156: The Answer

I think we missed the boar and now we are running along the bank trying to catch her..

She is afloat, she is safe and she is going in the same direction she would have been going had we got on, only maybe not as fast or as smoothly as we would sometimes have liked.

She is not for docking so that we can get on, that would only ruin her momentum and set her back. She may never recover of we do that! So better to let her sail the way she has been, than to call her to land and replace her with a captain who will need to steer her in the same direction anyway! only much further behind schedule and on a collision course with that unsuspected Iceberg named economic meltdown!

#160
Maybe the question is how does scotsland compaired to a poor region of "Yorkshire and The Humber" , look at the people on handouts in scotland + plus scotsland public sector + plus scotsland "barnett formula" and you will see that even with your so call "scotsland oil" more profit come out of Yorkshire and The Humber than comes out of scotsland.

Is there anyone in this forum not on medication?

If the same level of vociferous 'discussion' re independence and oil seen on this thread were to be of a similar level from those of an atheist and non-religious perspective taken, at every opportunity when a topic exercised the religious minority, then sectarianism may well be defeated.

It's a matter of he who shouts loudest gets heard first. Unfortunately, they are also given undue deference when they do shout from a purely historic perspective.

Christian Voice showed how easy it is for the religious bigot to be heard and, worse, given air time to justify it.

No wonder we have problems!

""...The oil is running out, just like we've known since we all did science 2b at school, but the article tells us that there remains billions of pounds worth of barrels...""

Jimmy, Everything is running out!
Right now we still have half the oil and two thirds of the revenue left to use.
Approx $500billion.

The question is what do you use the finite amount of revenue left for?

Being able to wage war on 'religious extremists' on two fronts at the same time, and keeping the 2nd largest military budget on the planet.
Or
Building an infrastructure to bring Scotland's economy and wellbeing up to the levels enjoyed by Ireland, Iceland and our Scandic neighbours?

#163. Media 1

I think I understand.

When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.

An Independant Scotland. Last one out close the door.
The roads and rail links will stop at the border. We will be subjected to terrorism on a daily basis. All the oil companies will move out. Financial Institutions will move south. The oil & gas resources will dry up. The few remaining people left in Scotland will not be able to visit relatives living in England. We will become a third world country up to our eyes in debt.
Absolutely Brilliant. It will put a stop to having to listen to the complete drivel we have to listen to from Unionist Politicians trying to safeguard Westministers seat on the G8 and their own highly paid backsides.
If Scotland is such a drain on the UK they should be encouraging us to go for independence.
They will not though as the Scottish MP's keep labour in power at westminister and waste billions of pounds on illegal wars, nuclear deterents and ineffecient public services.
Scotland Free From Westminister.

Of Low Intelligence Non "The Answer"

It was an Englishman that told me that (nothing surprising there then eh?). We don't get taught that kind of inane information at geography at school as it's not required as it's inconsequential.

There seems to be a funny smell coming from comments 145, 154, 156, 164 and 168. Can't quite put my finger on it but hang on....sniff sniff, moo, moo. That's it, it's unionist bullcr*p!

#168. The Answer
How clever of you to use this obscure reference from the Scottish Declaration of Arbroath 1320.

The l'and of milk and honey' was that part of the Iberian Peninsula around Galicia where the Celts settled on their wanderings to Ireland and Dalriada.

So called because in the harsh climate the only available food to eat was milk and honey.

btw.Was it 'The Danelaw' that gave 'Humberside' her claim to independance?

Guys. Im not going to change how Im going to vote and neither are you.

So ,unless theres something to add lets stop slagging each other off.

Its not up to me of course but its a waste of finger movement.

#168. Not sure if Yorkshire and the Humber is a region of England except in some boring government report. Humberside, on the other hand, has been disbanded due to the fact that a) it was a crap name though up by bureaucrats (like, I admit , 'North Britain') b) the people of East Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire had nothing in common (like merging 2 regiments with their own strong traditions). c) The populations of Hull, Scunthorpe and Grimsby would rather undergo major heart surgery without anaesthetic that cooperate with each other. Tribalism is not just a Scottish problem.

Sniff Sniff, moo, moo The Answer

Silly England, cast adrift from her Big Brother Scot.

Awwww

And all they have is a silly billy who can only drag up obscure newspapers to try to show how silly Scotland is. Awwwwww didums.......

#168

Yes, another part of the union dividend.
A country embarassingly wealthy with resources but we need you to keep us, for our sakes off course.

#175. Royster
Exept that these 'tribal issues' all originate south of the Border.
HenryVIII. Edward I, Queen Anne, etc...

As stated by the DWP Yorkshire and The Humber is a government office region

click on the link from the DWP web site

http://193.115.152.21/100pc/wa/comb/ccgor/a_carate_r_comb...

I'm sure the government would like to lose Yorkshire and The Humber because when compairing same sized populations is shows just how bad things are in scotsland

Well thats us Scottish Yanks on-line now.
This debate in its various forms is really interesting and you can start to see who understands and who is just full of the kinda emotion that you see at a Scotland/England match.
My question - as born and bred Fifer - consider Scotland as your family and can you really earn enough to pay your bills. I like the idea of clean coal and alternative power - to sell, but are you cheap enough? I do think oil is becoming less of a factor everywhere - coal in Scotland may be an answer but can you get iy out the ground at the right price? Assume that this all goes ahead without too many tears then what do you do? There are going to have to a lot of small companies spring up making stuff for other markets because the Scots market is just too small. Bigger companies are still going to have low cost manufacture in the Far East. Even Scottish seafood can't be economically processed in Scotland. Think about this. The popluation of Scotland is less than any one major city in the US. I can't see a booming economy based on cleaning hotel rooms, quaint tourist cafe's that are never open and massive shortbread factories supplying ex-pats world-wide. Scotland has been sheltered (and abused) by the Westminister Government but don't think the journey to Nationhood will be easy but I do think it will be better in the long run.

#174. The Answer
This is part of the Scottish Executives' initiative to address the skills gap caused by decades of Scottish depopulation.

In other words a tangible example of where Scottish and English interests are in conflict.

stupid dave

This is not a link to a newspaper its the DWP database, you should try and use it, you will be shocked about how many lazy dependent scoots there are..

http://193.115.152.21/100pc/tabtool.html

Happy yo show you how to use it if need be, then again I know you need help on how to use it..

Hi,

Interesting reading, I've lived and worked all over the world and am genetically linked to England. I don't hate the English but I am certain that we can do what we're destined to do within the next generation.

Hopefully we'll be given the respect we deserve and get on with the job in hand - in building us back to an independent nation of free thinking, cultured and inventive people. The world still benefits from much of our past creativity and I'm sure will continue to do so!

Scotland must vote for independence and then conduct herself in the manner she is clearly and so demonstratably able of within Europe and the rest of the World.

I work with about 26 plus other nationalities and demand to be recoginsed as Scottish as much as the English and Welsh can demand to be recognised as they see fit. We are respected as Scots and our opinion is held in high regard, so lets not sell ourselves short and reach our potential and perhaps exceed expectations!

The Yanks that I talk to have no idea about Scottish independence so I'm having to educate them! I'm enjoying it because the guys I talk to are obsessed with capitalism and globalisation. The thing is I can see that we are a people that can make a difference in this world and it continues with being independent next year, not in 20 years when the momentum has been lost to coin a phrase from Irvine Welsh's Trainspotting - "being Scottish is sh%ye" - no it's not!

I support the SNP out of total belief that the lies of Labour and previous British governments must stop/be stopped and we must take responsibility for our own actions and be masters of our own destiny.

So damn the Unionists and long live an independent and free Scotland - one I'd die defending.

SH

Independence for a small European country in a big bad world...

Seems to work for Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Isle of Man, Belgium, Luxembourg, Slovenia, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Macedonia, Switzerland, Malta, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc

#181
It's a bribe to try and get fee paying students to shore up your third rate university structure.
.57% of English domiciled people enter university
.52% of scots enter university
in my books that means 10% of England domiciled students make it to university than do there scots counterparts..

I think, under an independant Scotland we will keep The Answer. He's quite funny.

It would be a great reminder why, while he may think that us Scots are lazy, it actually takes Scotsmen to run the entire UK and if we don't get independance, we will make sure to vote another Scotsman in and a Fifer, Son of the Manse to boot. (And Mr Blair has a Fettes education too)

Thanks The Answer, you are the motivation we need.

was meaning to say "10% more England domiciled students"

Aww Stupid The Answer can't spell pwoper nor can it do maths. Must be the product of an English University/polytechnic education.

Awww.

stupid dave

I find it sad when families are dependent and need handouts to feed themselfs.

I find it even sadder when a whole nation has to live on handouts as is the case with scootsland

The World Economic Forum has just released its list of the most competitive and dynamic economies in the EU.

1)Denmark
2)Finland
3)Sweden
4)Netherlands
5)Germany
6)UK
7)Austria
8)Luxembourg
9)France
10)Belgium

Denmark scored highly in all areas and was found to have done most to boost enterprise.

But if the UK is sixth overall then I wonder where Scotland sits? And, it's very noticeable that the top three are smallish nations and of them only Denmark has some oil/gas.

The UK topped the rankings in terms of strength in financial markets but came only ninth in terms of promoting social inclusion. I think this sums up modern Britain very well.....

Yes of course The Answer you are totally correct.

Except about the things you have badly written and badly calculated of course. Anyways, you should be glad we want out of the Union and stand on our own 2 feet, which is what this is about so what's your problem Badly Educated The Answer?

#178. Livilion, the north of England rose up and very nearly deposed Henry VIII in a Catholic rebellion led by Robert Aske and known as the 'Pilgrimage of Grace'. Henry wriggled his way out of it and Aske was hung, drawn and quartered at York (though Henry showed mercy by letting him die first before the quartering and general cutting off of goolies etc). In fact, the population of the north felt so oppressed that some fishermen from Scarborough and then Whitburn went up to a French boat that the King James V of Scotland was travelling on and asked him to help (these were from the same population who a few years earlier had probably fought under the Duke of Norfolk at Flodden). Unfortunately, an Englishman called James Crane (who was in the service of the King of France) was also on the boat and he was an agent of Thomas Cromwell. You've probably guessed what happened to the ringleaders.

I'm not English, I was born in another parasitic part of the UK that sucks England dry, Wales!

But I cant wait for Independence for scotsland, Wales will get bigger handouts when your gone..

Media 1
Are you still there? An answer to #157? Might be able to help.

Okay dokay. Be sure to vote Yes on your way out The Answer. So far it's 76% for and 23% against.

Cheers.

stupid dave said
"Anyways, you should be glad we want out of the Union and stand on our own 2 feet"

How can scotsland stand on its own 2 feet, with so many hundreds of thousands of its population on Incapacity Benefit?

What's sad and illiterate and comes out of Wales?

I think the East of Scotland should break away from the West.

Here in the East we have oil, financial power houses, a parliament house, the best universities and far better standard of living and life expectancy. The west have battered sausage suppers, more rain, less jobs, more poverty, higher incidence of sports casual wearing buckfast consumers, and a whiney accent.

The West is just a big financial drag on the out and out success of the East....onwards to freedom easterners! The time is now!

Is it still here HIS? I thought it left. I feel slightly uncomfortable with a welsh person in our midst spouting Unionist pap. All the Welsh I ever met can't wait to get shot of Westmonster which is why they voted for devolution. Same with NI too.

The Welsh only just voted for devolution bu a few thousand. I doubt their enthusiasm for independence.

stupid dave, NI is a problem created by the scoots

Too many people blame "the government" whether it is UK, Holyrood or whatever for everything and want someone else to be held responsible for for whatever happens.
Independance means - do it on your own. Everyone will have to pull togther and Scotland will have to kill the welfare/handout lazy can't be bothered culture." On your own" should mean everyone with a common goal - to be a great Nation with a population that can survive without handouts.

Well done Neil, you got the hunnerbag!

Yeah, you are probably right, the Welsh couldn't survive without handouts and are quite happy towing the line and living off the state. Fair enough mate.

Who writes the copy for this newspaper? The shade of Dr. Josef Goebbles? Oil will run out by 2030! Returns reducing by 10% per annum? Who are you trying to fool?

According to Professor Alex Kemp, of Petroleum Economics at the University of Aberdeen. North Sea Oil and Gas production will still be present in 2050. There is as much known oil left yet to be extracted than has already been exploited

Scotland is a net exporter of Oil and Gas. Fact: An independent Scotland with 17.5% of Europes Oil reserves will be a net exporter of oil and gas for at least 25 more years. Properly invested the proceeds will make Scotland the second richest nation on earth for its size. There will be huge social and economic benefits for all Scotlands Citizens and public services.

Of course this is the main reason why Westminster wants to hold onto the Scottish cash cow, and tells us porkies.

Airson Alba
Niall.

198 are you suggesting that Glasgow be hived off to Ulster??

205 - I don't think the peace-loving people of Ulster would accept the violently obese people of Glasgow.

Freedom for the East! ITS TIME!

204 Neil, very interesting, but as both sides of the argument are telling a conflicting story, why do you think that it is just the Unionists who are presenting distorted figures - or simply mistaken ones? Isn't it just as likely that the supporters of independence are massaging figures to aid their case? Who's to sort the wheat from the chaff?

Personally, I wouldn't beleive either side's figures. Call a properly independent mediator and allow him to gather all the 'expert' opinions together and come up with a proper and trustworthy oil/gas report. Never trust the politicians, or their idealistic supporters to offer unbiased figures.

206 Hezza - would you accept Northumberland as part of your gang too? Or is that debatable?

#207

That is why I quoted from Professor kemps many reports. He is a highly respected figure in the Oil and gas industry. To my best knowledge he is not a supporter of Scottish Independence but I do respect his scholarship and neutrality. If he says Oil and gas will still be extracted in 2050, who are we to argue. I would certainly trust Prof kemp than the lying politicians.

Airson Alba
Niall.

Every year which passes by Scotlands oil reserves are getting lower thats why it need independence quickly.

#209 Who am I to argue then?

More stupid questions.

The greater economy is made up of a whole load more than oil and gas

Scotland can effectively close her borders and survive in food, resources and humanity for her population independently for many years unlike almost ever other country in the world - the whole independence issue here is about making independent desicions in a global playing field

Lets face it! why do London not let Brussels make all the desicions for the UK?

The other point that needs to be taken into account is that barring a global economic collapse the oil price trend is firmly upwards... So to an extent even though Scotland may produce less oil the price being paid for it will be higher.. This in theory should lead to more exploration and development.

This oil and gas debate is a complete red herring when it comes to the issue of independence. Haven't read all the posts (too many) so apologies if I am repeating what's gone before.

Sure it would be great to have loads of oil and gas and be prosperous but leaving aside the issue of properly drawn boundaries and fair divisions of spoils with the rest of the Union the fact is that in one way or another Scotland would survive as an independent nation whether it had oil or not.

My heart says independence my head says why change. I am pretty sure my heart will rule when the crunch comes. Bear in mind however that very little will change. Yes we will be governing our selves but it will be the same idiot career politicians who we vote in.

#209

Absolutely! Us Easterners should stick together.

We might need reciprocal ports and land from the west, on a like for like basis. We swap Dundee for everything north of Oban, Middles-berg for the Lake District - these sort of like-for like swaps, but obviously try to keep the line of the fence roughly even. Luckily, the fence only needs to be disguised as a banana to send the 'westerners' running...limited need for border control.

In time, we may allow other Easterners to join - London, the East Indies, Eastern Europe, Easter Island. Easter would be the national day.

ITS TIME!

217 Richard, I might agree with you if you're talking about north of Ranoch moor...

Hezza - have you anything sensible to add?
As a unionist, do you feel devoid of decent argument?

# 213
There is only one answer.
Independence!

#214 dick(very apt)

"The World Bank predicted today that oil prices would fall back to $56 a barrel next year and to $53 in 2008, saying the spike earlier this year had weakened demand growth despite accelerated world economic activity."

http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/markets.aspx?ID=BD4...

HIS: I answered you at 163

Hi Royster - In another forum, time differences do make it hard to reply at times, you mentioned: NZ ….“suffered a large number of financial shocks and these shocks were absorbed by low salaries and a very weak currency at certain times…”
I don’t know if you read and early post where I said it was NZ’s earlier troubles that have helped make her a pretty good place to live in now. I said about the fearful Unionists, “..none of your fears can be as great as the fears of New Zealanders and their Government when the UK joined the then ‘Common Market’ in 1973.
New Zealand was completely dependent on the British market for its primary products and the feeling of ‘doom and gloom’ can not be exaggerated. Unlike Australia and Canada, NZ was not mineral rich and has still to discover the equivalent on North Sea Oil. The country was stuffed and then along came the ‘Oil Crisis’- New Zealand was doubly stuffed and no one in the UK (apart from the Daily Express of the time) cared.
WE FOUND OURSELVES - WE FOUND NEW MARKETS we came though and now have lowest unemployment in OECD. Scotland could also reinvent itself modernise and find new markets and enterprises.

Royster You also mentioned NZ lower salaries.
Lower salaried - high tax are to some of us irrelevant - it’s what you have left in your hand and what you can spend it on. QUALITY of life is what is important and that is what a lot of immigrants are looking for. There are a lot of very highly trained Scottish professionals here in New Zealand - a lot - and in high positions who could be earning far more in London but hey they’d rather have a house with some grounds, citrus trees, normally more sunshine (not this year) and, in my town’s case walk to work.
I’ve seen the prices of houses in the UK and you’d need a higher salary to hope to buy them. But its not the prices that astound Kiwis - it’s what you get for your money almost like a shoe box unless you are very well off.
Many who believe in Scottish sovereignty look to the examples of others which mostly show an independent nation gains not just financial betterment but a maturity and pride and a future dictated to by its own citizens.

THE EXPERT SAYS: Dr Stephen Neff, of Edinburgh University law school, says that international law dictates that two countries should first negotiate.

However, if England insisted that the boundary should go at 45 degrees from the Border - giving some oil fields to England - but Scotland objected, the matter would go to arbitration. "It would be very easy for the English to argue their case and then the matter would go to the World Court of Jurisdiction in The Hague."

Thats actually incorrect, it would go to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea

155 Royster. I suppose it's ok to partition Ireland. Outside imperialists partition, countries becoming independent of one another separate.

Media, its not too late for Scotland to be independence. I know you think like that because its too late for your mind to catch up with others and realise the facts that the empire you cherish is a thing of the past.

Sorry Royster going on to you (if you are there or can be bothered reading by wee bleathers) but it’s early morning here and it’s my final day after 10 days of bachelordom.
Perhaps it just we see things from different perspectives and enjoy and understand quality of life completely differently. Living in a sovereign country for me is ‘enjoyable’ - it obviously doesn’t mean the same to you and I have not the ability to explain ‘feelings.’ If I lived in England I would prefer the seat of government to be in England not Belfast Dublin or Edinburgh. Sovereignty reflects every aspect of a nation’s and its citizen’s life and I could enumerate many aspects of Scottish life that I believe are negatively affected by its place in the Union, some which may appear petty such as lack of international recognition in books, in the media etc. Virtually everything we receive from the UK and about the UK is considered English (Fareweel ev’n to the Scottish name)
Despite what our Scottish media claim Scotland does not have high standing abroad as compared to say Ireland (Irish pubs and culture are nearly everywhere). Even entertainment, when on the very odd time that we get anything remotely Scottish eg., Monarch of the Glen it is usually full of English actors (no offence to them) but all British shows are seen to be English and they normally are. For better or for worse Billy Connolly is the only known Scot comedian (and he usual slags off Scotland and derides the SNP mercilessly -everyone has a laugh at the thought of an independent Scotland - it’s a joke care of the ‘Big Yin’). There are literally dozens of English, Irish and Australian comedians on our television and personally visiting for comedy festivals but few if any Scots- has Scotland lost its sense of humour or are they all unintelligible? When we did get a show with two Scottish actors, ‘One Foot in the Grave’ they were supposed to be English and spoke as if English. Still a good show.
I perso

225. The 45 degree line is based on the tip of the occupied landmass in Berwickshire, which was illegaly incorporated into England over a hundred years ago. Think 6000 square miles of Scottish waters Blair ordered his Scottish Labour MSPs to hand over to England.

What surprises me is that Ireland did not negotiate removing the 100% of the country it put into the UK. Well, that's the English for you

Is David Begg not an expert on grinding traffic to a halt? Does Media One live in Cape Town?

227 Steve McGregor! I just dont want to see Scotland getting hurt and she will if she goes it alone.

I choose to stop and think of the consequnces prior to jumping in head first on some flight of fancy braveheart nonsense.

Its better the devil you know!

Media 1. Scotland is not alone.

#231 -
Devil take the hindmaist - unless you can catch up !
Braveheart and the kailyard are old hat.
21st Century Scotland looking forward - May 2006 will be the start.

Thanks Robbie NZ for some thoughful insights.

I should coco Ken M! She is far from alone!

Oops May 2007! (red faces all round)

Well spoken media, you have just mentioned your problem, fear. For us, scots in scotland the only devil is the Union and there isn't another one which we don't know.
I was born in maryhill Glasgow, thank God Im not there any more. Believe me, Maryhill is not better than your Soweto in Jo'burg. I know what Soweto is like.
I don't despise the life in Soweto, but For a country like Scotland, regarding its history, wealthy and intellectuality, to have people whose life expectancy is less than the retirement age! I dont know what else do you want to see just to realise that every thing is wrong at the moment.

Q How many countries in the world want to keep Scotland down?

A One

Ultimately the people will decide. If you think that Scotland's young folk are prepared and responsible enough to take on the running of their own nation then so be it. If you think that Scotland will be better off then so be it, if you think that Scots politicians running Scotland will do more for you, then so be it.

I just dont believe that its a good idea, there is no justifiable reason for Scotland to be entirely independent.

Better the devil you know, my arse. And get ye behind it.

#236 Steve McGregor: I was born in Glasgow, hailed from Laden Street in Maryhill, moved to Edinburgh when I was 8. Lived in Canada, then Australia and now I am in SA..But not on a permanent basis, I am 7 months here and 4 months in Stockbridge Edinburgh, the other month in Aus..

Maryhill is paradise compared to Hillbrow and Alexander up in Jhb! As far as SOWETO(South Western Townships) is concerned, you may have a point.

Its not fear that scares me Steve. Its blindfolded fear that scares me! There is a difference mate.

Media

That is what the young folk need in this country. Responsibility for their own destiny and actions instead of nannyism, state hand outs and nothing to be proud of. They need to be occupied by the challange of forging a new country, even if it fails.

You put up very good arguments for the union and while we respect your point of view, I firmly believe the tide has now turned and is reflected in the opinion poll at the top of the page.

I've heard on the wind that priority was given to the recovery of gas found in English waters while information regarding gas deposits in Scottish waters has been held VERY close to the vest for political reasons. There should be a VERY close audit of the surveys and contracts. I would not be surprised in the least if there were considerable discrepancies. Remember, of late, Shell's significant downward estimates of reserves? This kind of thing is industry wide. But, then again, Tony Blair's government would never lie to us on matters of national importance like WMDs, the war on terror and energy policy...

When Alex Salmond asked tony blair (never mind jack mcconnell) to come up on a live debate on whether scotland would be better of while independence, tony never responded to that, instead he went on media alone and tell us independence would be a disaster for scotland;
and when he was asked whether he is a scot, his answer was, "oh! well, I was born in edinburgh, but..., I've lived all my life in England"

Come guys, this guy is only good for himself, and probably his country, England.

IT'S TIME

Evening Nats. The way you dominate this forum I have to laugh at your accusation that the Scotsman is a Unionist propaganda sheet! As for your comment Ken M 237-how many countries in the world want to keep Scotland down? What kind of paranoid nonsense is that!
As to Alex Salmond and the SNP-he seems a decent guy and I am sure he could run an Independent Scotland quite well until you tired of him as you inevitably would. And what then? Dont blame you for being gatvol(local expression means browned off) with the Labour Party, but why turn to the poisoned chalice of the SNP? The LibDems seem a far better bet-left leaning,Scots leader,maximum internal government for Scotland without the SNP's bizarre need to destroy one of the worlds most succesful nations. When you think what the Scots,English,Irish and Welsh TOGETHER with only about one percent of the worlds population achieve and have achieved in the past, what logical reason could one conjure up for wrecking this? As for the figures, the money and oil thing- you can interpret and conjure these to suit any viewpoint. For me its about the heart-if the majority of Scots genuinely want out of the Union then no amount of accounting will alter this. By the way,howsit Media 1-nice to have a fellow colonial on the thin red line against the forces of darkness!! That shud get them going!!

To all the Scots like Media 1 and the like who are eligible to vote in May's elections, can you tell me how to vote while abroad?

Everybody has the right to there say.

241 Angus Mor-with respect Angus, 566 votes is a miniscule sample from which you can not, in statistical terms, deduce anything. If there was only one vote and it was for independence, would you say that the Scots were 100% behind the idea?

Geoff/Media 1

It is an opinion poll. Everybody all over the world is free to cast a vote on the opinion poll. Most reasonably intelligent people and even you, know that it is by no means a true representation of the thoughts of the people.

However, while there is no sign of referendum and while there is no official MORI poll as yet, this is as good indication as we are likely to get at present. Yes, statistically, nothing can be determined, that is why it is called a poll.

Nobody needs to be 100% behind anything for it to be a majority. Did 100% of the people vote for the union in 1707? Or for Labour in the last elections for that matter? No is the resounding answer.

#244 Its very prosuming to think that all pro independence debaters are Nationalists!
Im for Independence, but Im not a Nationalist supporter, so where do you pidgeon hole me?
For the moment SNP is the only main party that supports and promotes Independence. If it had been the Tories, who were the only party doing this, then they would be receiving strong support, but that wouldnt make everyone a Tory supporter. Its the cause for independence thats being supported, not specifically the party. I would urge every Scotsman to vote for SNP as first choice and SSP or LibDem as second choice next year. The decision must be based on gut and brain and not just heart.
Why do you state that the SNP's main aim is to destroy, one of the worlds most succesful nations?
If anything SNP are aiming to help and promote Scotland. If you meant the UK, then Im afraid, your years to late, the UK is a spent force, well past its sell by date. Scotland has been trying to disband the Union since the 19th century, but wars have got in the way. Now were in a situation, where enough is enough, enough of all the lies that have been said by successive UK governnments in the last 30 years. It is now time for every Scotsman and Scotswoman to stand up and be counted and go for Independence

HIS #184 wrote "Independence for a small European country in a big bad world...
Seems to work for Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Isle of Man, Belgium, Luxembourg, Slovenia, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Macedonia, Switzerland, Malta, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc"

Of those you list, only three, Switzerland, Sweden, and Iceland, have managed to sustain their independence over the last seventy years. Many have gained/regained their independence only within the last fifteen years. Just because there is no immediately apparent bad actor on the current European scene doesn't mean that one can't arise ... perhaps faster than any of us imagine. When such nations do arise, the small European countries always go under fast. The last time the bad guys roamed the continent, Switzerland used its expensive "porcupine" neutrality, Sweden cooperated economically with the Nazis, and Iceland invited American occupation to maintain independence (actually, Iceland didn't gain complete independence from Denmark until 1944, while occupied by the Americans).

Which strategy would Scotland adopt to stave off invasion threats from, say, a resurgent Russia?

#245 In short, the answer is No
You need to be on the electroral register in one of the wards in Scotland to be eligable to vote.
I would love to vote as well, but do not reside in Scotland

Why would Russia want to invade Scotland?

It won't work, we'll all be worse off than we could ever believe or imagine in all ways, even in a very short lifetime. Don't even think about comparing Scotland with other countries as this takes us know where and they are all different and there is no comparison. (Thats why Scots go on holiday and decide to live abroad) .

#250 There you go again with the unmitigated tripe about invasion, what is it with you, that you have invasion on the brain

#253 Why do you not like Scotland to be compared with Finland, Denmark, Norway, Iceland or Ireland?
After all these countries have comprable populations to Scotland, similar demographics
in some instances Scotland is stronger
So Im curious, how you think Scotland isnt in the same league, you must have a poor opinion of the country

Media1
You referred to #156 The Answer
not me #157
Nevermind, I liked your answer, very poetic. I don't agree with it though.

244 James-you must be from Dundee in Kwazulu-Natal the way you pronounce my name! Can't really believe though, that you honestly think that all non blacks who reside in this part of the world are ET supporters. Think he is still in jail and by the way, the K word is VERY offensive-one I have never used and locally, considered worse than the N word.

#73,hey Gerry,I take it the second name is not "Adams",you would'nt be a "Free-Stater" by any chance,Its funny I had to come all the way over here to learn to add taught by fellow celts abroad that 26+6=1,cheers.
To all of you it is truley ammazing the ammount of friends scotland has abroad,in a few years time I'm going to write my biography entitled:

AROUND THE WORLD on the BAGPIPES
with
A SIXPENCE in YOUR POCKET

That was the last coin left in my pocket that Gordon Brown did'nt rape from me.
Yes we all need to take stock of Scotland,where she's coming from and where she could go,for me I'm just quietly optmistic,that in a short time we will all be getting up off our arses at the end of the evening to a tune of the calibre

"FREEDOM COME YE ALL"

251. Edward / 7:30pm 13 Dec 2006
#245 In short, the answer is No
I believe that one can vote if living abroad if originally registered and lived in Britain not more than 15 years (was 5 years) ago. Not entirely sure and so please no insults on knowledge.

#250
Of all those small nations I listed, in the last seventy years, the only problem has been the Second World War. Perhaps if they had been big countries like France and Poland they wouldn't have been occupied?
As for Russia? Well I think we're in bigger danger from the Anglo-American psychotic states that we both are attached to.

to #253: I'm coming home at the end of the year to my beautiful homeland. I'll be saying thanks to our education system who sent me over here when I return.

244 Geoff. You never answered my question. You sidestepped the answer with rhetoric.

The oil reserves are running out, being dependent on them puts you in a catagory of middle east countries. What happens after the well runs dry?

Invade Iran Sambo?

Apart from the usual pravda like journalistic support for the union from the Scotsman & the unionist die hard contribute's from (Hi Royster) it's refreshing to see how many people believe it would be good to have an nation state once again, it's not just about oil. Hopefully this will be expressed next May and beyond and the forces of darkness and illegal war's will not prevail. I would like to think that the disgraceful insult's from the like's of that job's for the boy nasty/angry man George Foulkes and his ilk, will receive the bloody nose their pathetic insult's of decent, thoughtful nationalist's like myself, my family and many friend's deserve's. Moreover why is Foulkes constantly allowed to get away during debate's with shouting his mouth off aggresively and never seems to be censured by the interviewer?
If any unionist out there think's that we don't care what happen's to Scotland economically, culuturely etc they are either sadly mistaken or just plain at it - we love this country with all heart. You don't join the Nationalist movement to become a career politician, to do that you join the perfidious Scottish labour party. Royster I hope if we go independent you will stay in Scotland you speak with a genuine and thoughtful head & you are the kind of people we need and I don't have a clue of your nationality pal!

#259
Ive just checked and there does seem to be a grey area!
First it states Your name must be on the Register of Electors , You must be a British, Commonwealth, European Union or Irish citizen , You must be 18 or over , but then later its states 'Overseas electors - Overseas electors (i.e. eligible British citizens living abroad)
Were first enfranchised by the RPA 1985, which gave the right to
Vote at Parliamentary and European Parliamentary elections
to expatriates for up to five years after they left the country, The qualifying period
Is now 15 years
So it looks as though you can vote, but how you go about that I dont know, you would need to check at the UK Embassy / High Commission

#259
http://www.votescotland.com/stv/28.html

Ken M262-I'll have to guess Kenneth-do you honestly and seriously think that England conciously wants to keep Scotland down? Maybe I have misunderstood you but if that IS what you mean then I am at a loss for words... Weathers lovely here over 30 degrees today

(1) the goverment of westminter lied to us in the 70s that is a fact they hid the truth that in the oil that scotland had then could make us better off being an independent nation if they lied to us then the chances are they will lie to us again and again about the economic benefits of indpendence. Every time Scottish people are about to go for indpendence the media which is all UNIONIST BIASED AND FULL OF HALF TRUTHS AND LIES tell us that economically we cannot make it alone. This is scaremongering lies which are always the same agruments that are brought up and again and again what scotland needs is indpendent non unionist biased media to press the postive case for indpendence as all the information comes from headline grabbing unionist liers in the press. so how can the average person decide the economic arguments when there is no fair representation of the indpendence case in the media

238. Media 1, Cape Town / 6:42pm 13 Dec 2006
I just don’t believe that its a good idea, [Independence] there is no justifiable reason for Scotland to be entirely independent.
Hi Media - well you have help make my wife happy (no comments please) because I may not bother ever writing on these forums again and get back in the garden with her. Why? it’s just too often that obviously comments are not read by many as their contents are ignored and the same old arguments are trotted out for or against independence. - Its like ‘Ground Hog Day‘. Often the amazingly stupid rude and pointless remarks bring about more banter but no one seems to have convinced others to change their opinion.
You stated, “there is no justifiable reason for Scotland to be entirely independent.”
There has been enough reasons stated in books and articles on paper to have used up an entire forest. Enough ‘justifiable reasons’ given on these forums to persuade any non-Scot I’ve shown them to, to become a stalwart for Scottish sovereignty. How can you possibly state, ‘no justifiable reason’ other small prosperous countries, pride, maturity, recognition at last, future in our own hands, etc., etc.

this is a quote from wikipedia which backs up what i am saying can the unionis liers get proof no chance
"Evidence unearthed in late 2005 under the Freedom of Information Act has shown significant UK government concerns over the rising tide of Scottish Nationalism during the early part of the 1970s and the consequences that this may have had upon ownership and control over the UK's North Sea resources. A report written by the Scottish Office economist Gavin McCrone for ministers[14] in the mid-1970s indicated that with ownership of North Sea oil, an independent Scotland would have "embarrassingly large tax surpluses"[15], that the economy of an independent Scotland, with control over the majority of UK North Sea oil revenue would have the one of the "hardest" currencies in Europe and that "for the first time since the Act Of Union was passed, it can now be credibly argued that Scotland's economic advantage lies in its repeal"[16]"

14 ^ The Economics of Nationalism Re-examined (1975) RG McCrone
15^ BBC news online September 2005 Papers reveal oil fears over the SNP
16 ^ BBC News online October 2005 Secret oil finds dossier released
The facts are there for anyone to read did the british government tell the voters this in the seventies if the told the truth be would be indpendent. I now what the liers will say that it was thirty years ago but the fact is this THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT LIED ABOUT SCOTLAND BEING ABLE TO SURVIVE ECONOMICALLY THEN AND THEY WILL LIE NOW VOTE INDEPENDENCE AND IGNORE THE LYING UNIONIST BIASED MEDIA

Hi Robbie, #228

Are you still there, I have just joined the forum, it is interesting to hear your views on how Scotland is perceived in NZ.

Is this your personal view? I have lived in England for 9 years and see very little on Scotland. England is very good at broadcasting its views and culture (??) but not vice versa, we do not even see the new year celebrations unless one has cable.

I take it that Burns night, the Edinburgh Festival or the military tatoo mean nothing to you, as does the world pipe band championship at the Cowl games or the granduer of the scottish highland lanscapes (I am aware of NZ landscapes through the cinema e.g Lord of the Rings).

Loch Long, Loch Eck, Loch Goil, Loch Lomond and Loch Katrine and the rest and be thankful are sights too behold, and steaming down Loch Katrine on the 80 odd year old steamer is a joy to behold.

If you are not aware of any of the above then the Scottish Highland tourist board needs to look closely at itself.

Having said that your comments, especially on the absence of replacement for the old comedians such as Jack Milroy and Rikkie Fulton (France & Josie) and singers such as Andie Stewart has woken me up to this, I have obviously been too long under the English media spell and need to wake up.

Robbie, keep up the contributions! It's not just the people who post who read this and you may even plant the seed of doubt in some of the hardline unionists.

Hi Robbie 270,

Don't leave ,your comments from across the globe are valuable and will send shivvers down the spine of English stalwarts who believe they can ignore the scottish question at their peril.

268 Geoff. Yes. You see, I can give a straight answer.

The page i got my info for my last blog 271 was from the non biased wikipedia website
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_Scotland%27s_oil#_not...
if anyone who says they are scottish
and only says no to indpendence because of what the
unionist biased liers in all the media in scotland say
then do your own research on the web wikipedia is a good start if you call yourself scottish then you owe it to scotland to make your choice on more than the one sided unionist view even if you say no say but get the full facts first before you make your mind up

And I don't think Geoff will ever be at a loss for words.

#264 Angus Mor
I thought that the middle east had invaded the UK already?

Geoff will only ever be at a loss for an answer

Sambo

Good point but I was thinking an independant Scotland could invade Iran once our oil has run out and plunder their nuclear reserves!!

My only concern at this point is that Russia decalred was on Berwick a good few years back and I don't know if that was resolved so therefore do we want Berwick back??

#221 ....... I wish I could post graphs on here because I could show you the oil supply figs up to 2030... The World Bank is seriously out of step with most other analysts and consultancies but then they often...

However, don't believe me.. Read some of the work by one of the leading investment bankers in the O&G industry.

http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/research.aspx?Type=msspeeches

No 237

And that's the numpties who rule Scotland now -and after independence

Surely the main dynamic behind wanting an independent country is for the sake of an independent country per se. Not whether Eastenders will have sub-titles or not (now there's a benefit of the break-up of the Union).

I wonder how many experts have informed the great unwashed of Scotland that the English navy had been blockading the Scottish trading vessels in the years leading up to the Darien and the Union.

The whole thing was a con and a bluff. As it is today. Nothing has changed, we're still England's back door and must be kept (down) at all costs.

Come on, Geoff of South Efrica, tell me I@m wrong.

Hi Robbie,

Referring to your comment #511 12 Dec 06 where you appear to be a separatist.

If my interpretation is correct, how do you perceive the future Scottish government, surely not SNP as I have been listening to them since 1960 and do not know who they are, do you?

I am not a unionist nor a separatist, I just want what is good for Scotland and agree that England’s past negative acts e.g. Beeching's destruction of the railways (1962) and Lord Roben's destruction of the mines (1965) would suggest that it has not been in Scotland's interest to be joined to them

To be fair on England, Thatcher did not care who she hit, both Scotland and England's industrial base was decimated by her policies, that is why I go back to the 1960's to get a clearer view of how England managed Scotland and to be honest from my perspective it does not look good.

As I have stated previously on Monday's debate, Blair and Brown did not look after Scotland, the non return of nuclear submarine refitting from Devonport Dockyard back to the experts Rosyth Royal Dockyard is a case in point.

Over to our English debaters to demonstrate via objective evidence where being joined to England has benefited Scotland, as I see it England benefited by using Scottish oil to fund Thatcher’s major changes to the economic structure of the UK.

Constructive responses from English separatists and unionists, if any, will be interesting but if Monday's comments by St George are anything to go by it will be the same old banter, lacking substance and full of innuendo as, he indicated, was born after 1984 (good be young, innocent, protected by lack of experience).

fatboyslim Yes, the internet is a good tool for the pro-independent, surprised it hasn't been got at yet.

ken m Yes, imagine if we were taught our history, like all those normal countries, especiaally how and why the union happened, it would be an eye opener for a lot of scots.

jmg I don't think many Scots, or others, today realise how autonomous Scotland was until the years following the Second World War, even the Scottish Tories were a separate party! In the "glory years" of Empire, our industry was largely Scottish owned and managed, eve some of the unions were Scottish only.

I have voted "No" to Scottish independence in the poll on the right-hand side of this page. In my opinion, the current leadership of the SNP does not have the country's best interests at heart, and the best future for Scotland lies within a strong, independent United Kingdom.

I have pledged my vote for British independence through the following campaign website, others who are determined to remain British residents may wish to do likewise:

www.bdicampaign.org

I will refuse to buy the Scotsman again, until I see evidence of a balanced, impartial editorial and reporting. For commercial reasons alone, that would see profits increase, with at least 30% of voters supporting Independence. I know many who feel the same as me.

For example, If they are going ask for an "experts" opinion, there's no point in seeking a balanced view from ex-Labour politician working for the Westminster Labour Government. Unless of course they know or hope what his answer will be.

Such ex-pat Scots hack me off for continually running Scotland's potential down.

#286 Terry

I've had a look at your link to the BDI. Do you realise the implications for Scotland? For example:
"Assert the sole authority of the Westminster Parliament to initiate, pass and repeal all legislation and regulation applied to the people of the United Kingdom "
So goodbye to a Scottish Parliament then!

288. HIS - sounds good to me!

for those who lack basic knowledge of scotlands possibilities i strongly recommend a quick visit to IDA Ireland website. all interesting but please note esp.news release sections and compare to scots equivalent. a true mega eye opener. nothing they do cannot be replicated as east euros are discovering. Investment of the highest quality going to ireland. and lots of it.

#286

From a Scot living in England for the last 9 years can someone tell me why Scotland is paying through the nose (look at the housing boom in Edinburgh and the spill over into growth in Dunfermline caused by this) for a so called pseudo parliament.

The act of Union gave Scotland its own LAWS and MONETORY system, so what’s new in this parliament other than the growth of more taxes on the Scottish people (than that on the English, as they do not, unlike Scotland, have two tiers of government and subsequently have more of their income to spend)?

The King is in the altogether and has no clothes comes to mind, and the Scottish people fell for another one of Blair’s spells hook line and sinker.

Unless of course someone can tell me different.

Happy for you Terry, but to be honest I think you've one heck of a long way to go.

To these in my homeland - Why wait three years for a referendum? The oil and gas revenue from the Scottish sector, no matter where where in the interim the boundary is set is Scotland's.

Yes indeed it will decline but consider how did Ireland achieve it's current success?

Not by constant dithering and procrastination but by making it tax advantageous for multi-national company investment and byutilising the skills of its major resource, it's people.

Come on all you Scots at home, grasp the nettle, be decisive!!!

290

IDA website, please can I have the full W3C address?

291. JMG - in 1997, Scots were conned into thinking that they would get their parliament back after 300 years. What they got is a model regional parliament of the European Union. Labour promised home rule but delivered devolution from Brussels. Scotland is bound by the Scotland Act 1998 to obey all EU laws, even more so than most member states.

All four main parties at Holyrood are European Unionist: the only difference between Labour and the SNP is that Labour wants to deliver a regionalised Britain into the hands of Brussels with Scotland still attached.

ROBBIE 270
Do not let the adolescent ramblings of a village idiot put you of, it's only purpose in life is to stir the proverbial.
Your contribution is much valued and correct, stay with it but do not engage with the VI, the following was written for people of it's ilk. Attention-seeking behaviour is surprisingly common. Being the centre of attention alleviates feelings of insecurity and inadequacy but the relief is temporary, as the underlying problem remains unaddressed: low self-confidence and low self-esteem, and consequent low levels of self-worth and self-love. The emotionally immature person has low levels of self-esteem and self-confidence and consequently feels insecure; to counter these feelings of insecurity they will spend a large proportion of their lives creating situations in which they become the centre of attention. It may be that the need for attention is inversely proportional to emotional maturity, therefore anyone indulging in attention-seeking behaviours is telling you how emotionally immature they are.


Thanks Robbie

287

Here here!!

295

Thanks Terry but from my perpsective the Scots do not have any more control over their future than they had previously, if anything its the opposite, do you agree?

LAXDAD 250.
Courage, grit, determination, bloody mindedness, and guerrilla war. As we did for hundreds of years whilst under attack from other imperialistic war mongers.

Hi Duncan #296

Have you been reading Awaken the power within by Anthony Robbins, for the uninitiated Dr Richard Bandler and Neuro Linguistic Programming at its best?

JMG Your information is appreciated, I shall add it to my list!

Goodbye to a Scottish 'DEVOLVED' Parliament. Hello a true Scottish Parliament.

It is time.

298. JMG - yes, I would agree. The First Minister, Jack McConnell, has London Labour coming up to run his election campaign; he has President Jose Manuel Barroso of the European Commission popping in to remind him that the Spanish takeover of Scottish Power is in line with the EU's common energy policy; Jack and Irene Oldfather, another Labour MSP, are, along with some councillors, Scotland's members of the EU Committee of the Regions, and, with a handful of MEPs, will be representing the EU in Scotland once Westminster has been tailored to suit the English Euro-Regions.

The Scottish Conservatives have gone native, and are in terminal decline. The SNP has been making brave noises about the Common Fisheries Policy and Scotland's oil, but Alex Salmond still wants to take Scotland into the Euro single currency, right into the heart of the Euro-federalist project.

The Scottish Parliament has done nothing for Scotland that the old Scottish Office, with a handful of MPs as ministers, could not have done, much more efficiently and cheaply.

#93.Dave I voted twice...had to do it as we must get free...sorry if it screwed up your maths.
wish you'd all stop whinging, scaremongering and worrying...a lot of folk seem so frightened to stand on thier own two feet...it's you country and you have the chance to free it so stop bickering and get out and ote SNP in may..if ye've the dangly parts tae dae it??!

##293

Hi Allan R, the last of the ex pats to contribute lately.

Where did the 3 years come from?

The Republic of Ireland was in a different position as they have been free from England's clutches for some one hundred years or so (don't quote me I'm guessing).

Scotland has to free itself from rule by Westminster before it can follow the Irish model (don't be fooled by the pseudo Scottish parliament)

The nettle is Westminster power base and as Guy Fawkes and Mahatma Ghandi found it's not easy.

P.S. May I suggest you all try the Scotsman's "Haggis hunt" it's great fun but I warn you it can become addictive..even more so than writing to this forum can become. It is much better than reading all the 'fears in the form' stuff and I highly recommend it for the bloodpressure.

Terry
"The Scottish Parliament has done nothing for Scotland that the old Scottish Office, with a handful of MPs as ministers, could not have done, much more efficiently and cheaply."

Perhaps the most important thing the Scottish Parliament has done, that Westminster could not do, is bring proper democratic accountability to Scottish policy making. Do you really want to return to the good old bad old days when Scotland was dealt with in 40 odd minutes a month at Westminster (and even that was hijacked by English tories)?
The other important difference is important legislation, tailored to Scotland needs, reforming legislation that was often decades out of date e.g. Adults with incapacities.

Hi All,

Even though I have been enjoying this banter I'm afraid the boss has called and I must retire.

To all my scots debaters at home and abroad awerabestaeye and may I wish you health, wealth and happiness in the new year, that's assuming that you will not be joining with me tomorrow (should the Scotsman wish to keep this lively debate going)!

Goodnight all

Terry
And I meant to add, that it's been casting a light in some fairly dark places. Perhaps most important of all: pr for logal government, something that Westminster would never have introduced. Whatever happens at Holyrood in May we're going to have a revolution in the local government front. I get the feeling you're a tory (difficult to tell because you don't see many) so I would have thought you would at least be pleased at that.

Hi HIS

Just saw #309 informative, interesting and enlightning.

Goodnight

260. HIS
""...Seems to work for Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Isle of Man, Belgium, Luxembourg, Slovenia, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Macedonia, Switzerland, Malta, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc"

Of those you list, only three, Switzerland, Sweden, and Iceland, have managed to sustain their independence over the last seventy years..""

And Finland, Ireland, Isle of Man, and of course those who have since gained independance in that time.

Malta was never invaded and gained her independance after a brief armed struggle with Britain in 1964.

Slovakia, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Slovenia, Croatia and most recently Macedonia, all gained their own independance in the last twenty years and are the happier for it too.

Does the fact that your nation has been invaded make your sovereignty somehow less valid?
Tell that to Moscow, Berlin, Paris, Rome, Brussels, Tokyo etc.

How many in Europe would then be left?
Sweden, Ireland, Finland(repelled the combined might of the Soviet Union only to be forced to negotiate peace when the Allies refused to resupply her with ammunition), Iceland, Greenland, Faroe Islands, Switzerland, Isle of Man, Malta. UK.
These 'Independent' States are more valid than the invaded ones because?

#225. Edward
Spot on mate.
It already has, several times.

""...THE EXPERT SAYS: Dr Stephen Neff, of Edinburgh University law school, says that international law dictates that two countries should first negotiate.

However, if England insisted that the boundary should go at 45 degrees from the Border - giving some oil fields to England - but Scotland objected, the matter would go to arbitration. "It would be very easy for the English to argue their case and then the matter would go to the World Court of Jurisdiction in The Hague." ,,,""

The boundary could not go at 45 degrees to the Border simply because the United Nations has decreed that all nations with a coastline have sovereignty out to 200 miles from their coast.

If England projected her boundary at 45 degrees this would infringe 200miles north of the border into Scottish territorial waters to somewhere between Fraserburgh and Wick.
Negotiate?
Like what about 1958, 64, 67, 75, 99?

The boundary between Scottish and English waters was finally settled in 1999 as running due East from near 55degrees north and west from the mouth of the Solway Firth.

It was England (Westminster)who made the settlement and drew the lines on the maps.

End Of, as they say!

This paper prints nothing but Unionist bias and drivel.

All pro-independence or even neutral articles: banned!

'Experts' only used if they are known to be pro-unionist.

'Facts' which are more often than not highly debatable.

Nonsense about how oil is almost gone: Wrong. Try checking with BP themselves, I trust them more than the biased Scottish media. Actually: 'there is no reason why we still shouldnt be churning out over 2m barrels per day in 2020 and thats just with existing supplies. Hard to get to supplies are likely to be reached with new technology'. This is from an article from a BP think tank this year.

No academics or business people support independence? Nonsense. It's just that the Scotsman ignores them, even more so than most other newspapers in the biased Scottish media.

Last week, The Sunday Times actually had the courage to list a whole host of academics and business people who support independence. They also published news of the Grant Thornton INDEPENDENT (ie not labour or snp) economic assessment of Scotland's finances and found that it actually brings in as much cash as it spends when Scotland's share of oil revenues are taken into account. This means that Scotland's financial state would remain unchanged if it left the union now.

In addition, if Scotland succeeded in dropping its stupidly high public spending rates to a level that most other countries consider normal, Scotland would break even WITHOUT the oil even being a factor. This means we should use the oil to cover public spending for the next few years while embarking on a long term programme to lower public spending, its not rocket science.

The labour report just published, has tinkered with the figures as usual but please don't tell me people continue to be fooled by this?

Unfortunately, when the entire Scottish press is biased, its difficult for people to get the facts.

An ex editor of the Herald has recently denounced thi

#314
It's not even that 52% say they are positively in favour of independence.

Only about a third of the electorate are actually in favour of the Union.

Less, if you live South of the border, apparently.

Had to post this.
“Cardinal demands Executive should face up to problems of 'institutional sectarianism' “
This is an article on another forum but is being censored.--Scotsman says,
“Thanks for your comment. Comments on this article must be approved by our moderator before being displayed.”
Do you all think that’s quite right? Yes -they are just showing that those in the West of Scotland or at least those that read the Scotsman are not mature enough to discuss religion in a mature and sensible manner. You might say ‘nasty’ things to each other.

#225 Edward. I think the guy at the law school at the University of Edinburgh probably knows more about these things than you. I can't understand why it would be a United Nations matter as it has everything to do with jurisdication and nothing to do with sea convention. # 312. Livilion. When are you going to understand that an international sea boundary has not yet been determined between England and Scotland? Those documents you have mentioned can be used to make a case for Scotland but nothing has been decided. If Westminster drew the lines in the first place, it could easily redraw them (maybe next April) or declare them void if Scotland breaches its contract with the union. The fact that it is now covered by Scottish law doesn't necessarily mean that an independent Scotland would be entitled to it as a) this was never the original intention and b) an independent Scotland may have different boundaries from the current Scotland which is within the union. It is unlikely, but not an impossibility, that some parts of Scotland may wish to remain within the UK and that the UK would agree to it. By the way, Scottish law covers fishing rights on the River Tweed and as you know Berwick is north of the Tweed. The river is in England but it is subject to Scottish law as regards fishing so there is a precedence however tenuous.

#223. Robbie, I agree. What Ted Heath did to the Commonwealth countries in 1973 was horrible (I think is was Ted Heath but I was only 9). My point is that NZ survived because it let its currency take the strain and brought in some pretty tough capitalist rules. Salaries are historically much lower in NZ than in Europe and most of the time (now excluded), the currency was very weak. An independent Scotland would be a success if it adopted breathtakingly capitalist policies, floated its currency, slashed (actually slashed isn't strong enough) public spending and public salaries. This, I suspect, is politically unacceptable in Scotland and would lead to a revolution as the population is getting older.

319. Royster / 7:11am 14 Dec 2006
“True’ capitalist policies would not condone the extensive welfare state that New Zealand and most of the small prosperous countries so often mention enjoy. These countries would not have been considered ‘capitalist’ by the Classical Liberal Economists of the 19th century nor neo-liberals of the 20th century.
New Zealand like most western nations would have survived (after the before mentioned knocks, ie UK into Common Market and Oil Crisis) but in a great ironic example of political pragmatics, the LABOUR PARTY which won the 1984 election (ousting NATIONAL, our version of the right-wing Tories) brought in many more right wing ‘market-oriented’ polices (not mentioned in their manifesto) but balanced with higher welfare payments for families. Great pain and the electorate desperate to get rid of these ‘Champagne Socialists’ had to re-elect National (no other choice as we had First Past the Post then) Now we had the most right wing government since the early 1930s. A referendum brought in MMP electoral system and a penitent Labour Party formed a centre left coalition with the Alliance (mainly NEW LABOUR, which in NZ case was the opposite of UK Labour - ie., it retained original Labour policies). The electorate did not want extreme right wing policies.
The undemocratic FPP electoral system up until rejection had given NZ neo-liberal policies it didn’t want. We have now had a Labour coalition for three terms.
The point being whereas it was the embryonic socialist parties of the 19th century which advocated democracy and universal suffrage - the term democracy has been ‘high jacked by the likes of Mr Bush and other neo-liberals to equate with capitalism.
What New Zealand and many social democratic states exhibit is a ‘free-enterprise’ economy (perhaps curtailed somewhat by the state) with some’ socialist ‘safe-guards. If that is similar to Britain’s ‘3rd Way’ I apologise I don’t know. What I

Royster Hi again (dishes not finished yet)
The above is a bit rambling but basically it’s saying that no matter what you or I believe ie., unbridle capitalism nudism on Fridays, whatever, in a true democracy the will of the people is paramount and in this true democracy the will of as many as possible of the electorate should be heard - which is why I am against FPP and pro proportional representation. The ‘capitalist’ regime in NZ that you spoke of was elected under subterfuge - it was a Labour party with a Labour pre-election manifesto. On election it brought in our version of ‘Reganomics’ called Rogernomics’ after its architect, Roger Douglas, Minister of Finance and still the most despised man among Labour supporters. After ‘leaving’ Labour he with neo-liberals from other parties form an extreme right wing- libertarian party called Act which still hangs onto two seats (National didn’t stand against them).
It was the electoral system which allowed our years of neo-Liberal ‘reform’ and it is the US electoral system that allows virtually only two parties to compete for power in the states and perhaps why their turn-out is so low.
The USA is the most powerful, the richest and nearly the most capitalist (at least it gives lip service but loves subsiding farmers and corporates) but it’s poverty rates are quite frankly disgraceful for such a nation.
I’m not defending Soviet communism but the Bolsheviks took over a back-ward uneducated nation in the middle of a devastating war. Then had a civil war. Then had a terrorist as leader then fought a war against Fascism which cost 20,000,000 lives (?).. It somehow survived.
US of A After revolution immigrants of fierce pioneering spirit. Take brilliant fertile land from indigenous people, using Lockean theories (as did Kiwis) used slavery to increase wealth. Made money big time in two world wars, ie., has had a lot going for it. Now I like Americans (I like most people) but we will never b

Hi 294. www.idaireland.com Go to Press Releases and have a bit of a study. In the last few weeks Google 500 jobs at their euro hq (1200 in all I think), Cisco R+D centre 200 jobs and Eli Lilly 200 jobs in a new $600 million biotech facility. Loads more like these last 3 years (on website) Scotland used to be their deadliest competitor. Now Switzerland apparently. Not in eu dont know why the swiss in particular.

318. Royster

""...The fact that it is now covered by Scottish law doesn't necessarily mean that an independent Scotland would be entitled to it as
a) this was never the original intention and
b) an independent Scotland may have different boundaries from the current Scotland which is within the union. It is unlikely, but not an impossibility, that some parts of Scotland may wish to remain within the UK and that the UK would agree to it.
By the way, Scottish law covers fishing rights on the River Tweed and as you know Berwick is north of the Tweed. The river is in England but it is subject to Scottish law as regards fishing so there is a precedence however tenuous...""

a) I got married, but my original intention was to get regular conjugal rights not to divorce her and buy her a house.

The legal term is Caveat Emptor or 'tough sh$t'

b)The likelyhood is that large tracts of what is now England north of the Tyne may wish to revert back to their former Scottish status, say from Hadrian's Wall upwards, if so, then so be it.
Want to ask?

I believe the term describing the unique status of Berwick was that of being OF Scotland, but not IN Scotland.

(Hence the legend of Berwick's unfinished Crimean War with Russia.)

The fishing issue was addressed in the 1998-9 legislation.

just one question about the oil. Doesnt most of the reserves lie off the Shetland isles? If Scotland goes independant, will the Shetland isles be able to vote for independance, if they so wish to, as the people of the shetland isles seem to hold more affinity with the people of Norway than they do of Scotland.

#325. Nothing settled or decided. In the event of a Scottish declaration of independence it would be up for negotiation - assuming the English would bother to negotiate.

why do you say assuming the English will bother Royster? Are you saying that the English may be apathetic?

#327 george1977
No George he's been harping on about this for some time now.

He means Post UK-England will declare her International waters extend around the Shetlands and Orkney Islands and just help herself to the oil revenues.

Scotland being too wee to stop her.

I have suggested that in an age of microchip technology, a land border, and some very well placed Scots, this would be an extremely high risk strategy for Whitehall to even contemplate.

Remember the DNA link we share and the fuss the Irish created?

and what do you think Livilion? Do you think hostility may reach this point?

Put simply George, it would not be in anyone's interests.

If the oil stopped flowing, as it most certainly would if Whitehall applied the 'strongarm', everyone would lose.

Internationally, England would be unable to show her face for the shame of it, and you might also imagine a few old scores being settled, should the opportunity arise, amongst some of England's old 'sparring partners'.

The lights of England would surely soon go out, and her transport network and economy would be at a standstill within days.

No I think for all the misinformed rhetoric on the ground our political servants have too much to lose by letting things get to blood letting.

Make no mistake there are plenty who would be ready to let blood spill, if asked to.

The Scots share a great deal of political DNA with our cousins in Ireland.

The McCrone report during the mid 70's even suggested that the British military could be deployed to protect English economic interests, should Scotland progress too far, too quickly, towards self determination.

The usual Whitehall 'smoke and mirrors' ensured then that this option was made redundant.

The one area where the 'British' have always excelled, has been in the field of misinformation and bluff. eg D-Day etc.