Let's not foget those who helped this bloodthirsty tyrant escape justice, namely Margaret Thatcher, Malcolm Rifkind and Norman Lamont - shame on you all!

One shouldn't really speak ill of the dead, but this truly evil man deserves no respect at all. Responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of socialists and trade unionists in Chile, the world has missed the opportunity to make him pay for his crimes.

Once again, the British and Americans stepped in to save this right wing despot from a fate which would surely have befallen any left wing leader who had committed a fraction of the crimes against humanity that this man had.

I hope he rots in hell.

Presumably you'll be celebrating the deaths of other dictators such as Castro, Kim Il Jung and Mugabe plus the former soviet and East European dictators? Or are they ok because they are from the left? Pinochet was a dictator and a tyrant and should not have escaped justice but sadly the hypocrisy of the left is disappointingly one sided on these matters as they conveniently forget those who perished at the hands of their hero’s.

Let's not forget that there are millions in the past and in the present suffering under dictators from both sides of the political spectrum.

Well #2, if there is a hell. In the meantime, let's watch to see who attends his funeral, what kind of funeral is organzied and by whom, what words of praise fall from the lips of the US and British politicians (if there are any still around and lucid enough to make a statement) who assisted him in his illegal take-over of a democratically elected government and ultimately prevented his being held accountable for his war crimes.

It was indeed another sad day in the life of the world when the US played a major role in assisting this man in his successful grab for power. Another reason why the US cannot be trusted and another coffin nail in the trite phrase "home of the free and land of the brave".

Having lived in Scotland with my family while Pinochet ruled our country, has made me write this message, I have a great sentimental feeling with Scotland, I lived there for 10 years (1975-1985). This is an important day, the dictator has died....not as we hoped he would, because he didn't receive a last trial that would condemn him as he deserved. Well, he's gone and I really do hope with all my heart he rots in hell.

I wish there was a hell, so that Pinochet and others like him would suffer the full torments. That includes people like the Conquistadores, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim Il Jung, Menachem Begin and all the rest. We can also hope that the people who supported and financed the likes of Pinochet are on the list too.

There are a number of current leaders who'll be hoping that there isn't a hell, and that they won't have to pay for the murder and torture of innocent people. That includes people like Mugabe, Blair and Bush.

We should remember the dead, tortured, disappeared, exiled. This utter disdain for human rights and thousands of lives he ruined.

In the words of Victor Jara, who wrote this poem before he was tortured and murdered in front of thousands in the stadium in Santiago and the courageous people who risked their lives to smuggle it out :-

Vientos Del Pueblo

"Now I want to live
together with my son and brother
in the new world that all of us
are building day by day
your threats do not intimidate me
patrons of poverty
the star of hope
will continue to be ours

Winds of the people are calling me
winds of the people are carrying me
they scatter my heart
and blow through my throat
so will a poet sing
as long as my spirit lives
through the roads of the people
now and forever"

I will not forget and I know many who won't.

Lets not forget the church's role in this.Their priests connived to keep him out the courts hands whilst in this country.To their eternal shame.
I suspect it was more to keep hidden their role in the murders than any pity for a sick old man.

While i agree with all your comments......please remember we are doing business with the Chinese.....who makes that guy look like a quaker

Unpleasent though his rule was, he still saved his country from communism. He should not be celebrated for it - it is not what he acted for - but he should be remembered for keeping his country from becoming a Cuba-like mess.

Remember, Communism/Marxism were/are as terrible as Nazism - and should be fought against by all.

Sorry Scott, I forgot to add Mao Tse Tung and his buddies to my list.

#1 Keren
George Galloway supported Saddam Hussein who killed 250,000 (Pinochet killed around 3000). The Sun printed photos of wee goerge laughing with Uday Hussein. It didn't stop some Scots from supporting him though - strangely enough.

#6, #9 and #10 - Agreed
What's happening in the Sudan is ten times worse than what happened in Chile but doesn't seem to stir up the same emotions - don't know why.

In one hand it's great news that at last the dictator died, and together with him a whole era of suffering, pain and loss is gone; but in the other hand it's a pity he left unpunished and without facing all the trials he deserved and what is more, surrounded by his family. As in most comments above, I also hope there is a hell for guys like this one, who murdered thousands, and part of my own family among those. May he rot in hell.

In a civilised world, people are innocent until proven guilty.

Crush your enemies;
See them driven before you;
And, hear the lamentations of the women.

Thank You, General Pinochet, for preventing Chile from becoming another Cuba, N. Korea, or worse.

Now, let's hear from the foregoing posters about their thoughts on left-wing despots - of which there are very many and who have murdered a thousand times more than was done in Chile - and continue to do so in those socialist worker's paradises.

Does anyone in today's Chile really think that today's Chile could ever have become today's Chile without first ensuring that the Cuban/Russian/Marxist scheme to take over that country was crushed? For a clue as to what this means; see above.

I do wish that some of the harsh and cruel excesses of the effort to preserve Chile under your rule could have been avoided and, becuase of that, no doubt you are headed to hell. It has to be said that it was entirely wrong to murder President Allende and most of the others who were so unjustly harmed, or killed. But, for some, that was the inevitable consequence of the side they chose and the path they followed. Had they won, you would have been their victing - of that there is no doubt.

But, I do find it rather amusing to hear from these secularist, atheist, communist (choose what best fits - you know who and what you are) posters whose absence of understanding still makes room for a 'hell'.

Let's hope that Chile never has to endure anything like this again - as Venezuela and Bolivia, and perhaps even Ecuador may well have in store.

"He died surrounded by his family"

How many of his countrymen did not have that luxury ?

#12 Of course you can´t understand, small intellect - How worthy "The Sun" What about pictures of Rumsfeld being treated to state dinner and sitting at his -Hussein´s side. It´s only what the propagandists make you believe. Suppose you believe Hussein had nuclear weapons hidden somewhere in Sussex, by the way do you believe in fairies?
And to #15 Do you really believe there´s only one "RIGHT" and right is might and scorn on those who see unblinkered. P.S. Conan, I seem to remember a film with this name in the title.

The lessons to take from this: We must not leave it so long to bring the despotic and the cruel to justice, and the hegemony of the US must be reined in.

18, why must the hegemony of the US be reined in. The US is the free-est, most democratic country in the World.

Not perfect - Iraq, electoral college systems - but still the model for us all. I am glad the US is on our side with the likes of the China, Russia and India coming on to the world scene.

#19 - Ya, dats right - before I became der Governator.

"Man is destined to die once, and after that the Judgment.' Hebrews 9:27

Augusto Pinochet has now received his eternal reward or punishment. Many will say the latter. How about us: have we no sins to count?

Maybe, in our own eyes, we don't measure up to the crimes of great dictators, but we all have sins (Romans 3:23) and we need forgiveness (Rom 6:23). Christ died for sinners. How will you fare in the Judgment?

Maybe we should think of that before sounding so certain or vindictive about the eternal fate of others, in whose shoes we have not walked.

As for Pinochet: the headline is provocative and wrong. He did not escape the Judgment. And neither will we. That would be our wisest focus.

Pinochet smashed the marxist leftist scum in his country and it is a pity the same did not happen more widely. In a 100 years from now he will be remembered as the father of the new modern Chile.

It's a long -accepted theory that PINOCHET did more for the British Servicemen than the Labour Party.it's Politicians and their supporters ever did when it's comes to the British Armed Forces. this was seen during the Falkland War.

Those socialists mentioned above sat on the fence and left Mrs Thatcher to fight the battle for freedon against tyranny in the Falklands on her own. even today the same enimies within betrayed our boys in Iraq. they were sent into battle with sub-standed weapons on a sexed-up dossier. the result over 120 have been killed and thousands wounded.

This so called 'saviour' of Chile against the 'evil communist' was a common thief and murderer.

Pinochet killed democracy and had absolute no respect for human rights.

Tell that to the countless people thrown out of helicopters and who had their fingernails torn from their bodies, to the pregnant women forced to give their children away, to the raped and the families who have never had a bpdy to bury, how this 'saviour' daved them from certain marxist indoctrination.

Ian and James England you are simply wrong. Pinochet will go down in history with Hitler, Mao and Stalin as a mass murderer, no more no less. Chile is no better off todaty than it was 30 years ago. Chavez and Castro have done a million times more for the ordinary Latino than scum like Pinochet.
Remember the Disappeared

Big wee man, next will you start ranting about Father Xmas and Fairies at the bottom of the garden? Your prehistoric fundementalism has no place within reasoned debate - away and join the Taliban!

ps BWM Pinochet was a good catholic who went to Church and committed many crimes in the name of God.

Hope Auld Nick has the burner turned up a few degrees for Pinochet... if anyone deserves the Bad Fire it's him.

Incidentally is this an issue (finally) that Independence for Scotland has got nothing at all to do with ?!!

The lesson here is that from now on, those in power will have to look over their shoulders. I hope Pinochet had many sleepless nights over the Spanish extradition attempt and local prosecutors' tightening net. Maybe such condemnation hastened his end and the relatives of the 'disappeared' can take some comfort in that.

How will history judge Blair and W? I supported the invasion of Iraq because with credulous innocence, now lost for ever, I believed that if our side said there were WMD then there were. I supposed that we "knew" because of dedicated spooks and networks of informers. Instead our leaders lied.

The more despots, heads of state, generals and tyrants that fall from grace after losing power the better. Pinochet, Milosovic, Kim Il -Jung are one end of a spectrum that includes the Western leaders who have abused their power.

If one genocidal maniac or belligerent commander in chief is given pause for thought by how the world nearly got at Pinochet, we'll all be better off.

I only hope that world leaders (apart from his fellow despots) will boycott the funeral.

If I believed in Hell - I'd condemn him to it.

What`s the betting that Thatcher will attend his funeral (If Fit)as she always said he was a great friend for helping us in the Falklands.Should be ashamed of herself.

So Chile is safe now? - let us hope that all the Chileans who for years protested in London and took social security from the British taxpayer can now all go home.

Given that Pinochet was a "bogeyman" for the Left around the world, some of the comments here and in the rest of the press were inevitable.

Allende may have been democratically elected (then again so was Hitler), but there is no doubt that he was politically close to Castro and the Soviet Union and thus a threat to the West (at least in the 1970s - in the 1930s he was reputed to be closer to Fascism). This was the way of the World during the Cold War; the West supported regimes which would now be considered beyond the pale so long as they were anti-Communist.

It should not be overlooked that Pinochet overthrew a corrupt marxist government, whose own attitude to human rights was little different to that of Pinochet.

# 14 In a civilised world, people are innocent until proven guilty.

seem to remember that he wasn't too keen on going to court.

I'm daydreaming, but wouldn't it be nice if someone stole his body and way give him the same funeral that he gave thousands

Lady Thatcher's support for Pinochet was based on his support for the UK during the Falklands war. Without his assistance, many more british lifes would have been lost, don't forget his was the only country in South America to support us. Labour on the other hand will spend the next few days villifiying him and Lady Thatcher for supporting him. This the Party that let Pinochet go free , despite calls from Spain for him to be extradited. At least with Lady Thatcher, you knew she had the courage of her convictions, unlike the Yellow Bellied Jack Straw and the great Tony Bliar.

37, Thank you Courtney. From the research I have done, Allende was trying to set up a Communist dictatorship - he may have been democratically elected, but he was not in favour of democracy.

I guess, when push comes to shove, we lovers of freedom, above all, are willing to fight to protect it.

I greatly regret the crimes of any state - why else am I so in fear of Socialism and Communism - but if you look at the net result, Chile is far better off for Pinochet.

Look, during WWII millions of innocent Germans died - a deeply disturbing fact. But on balance, fascim had to be defeated. Likewise, innocents died in the cold-war against Socialism/Communism - but it too had to be defeated for the sake of this World.

I think people here have forgotten that our good Gen Pinochet "saved Chile from leftist marxist scum" by violently overthrowing a democratically elected government......."leftest marxist scum" or not, they were voted in, in fair elections , by the Chilean people. Allende was no dictator. Pinochet was, in the mould of Hitler, Stalin, etc. To me,one of the saddest things about the Chilean coup d'etat was its ultra quick recognition by the U.K.'s then Labour Government as being the legitimate government of Chile.

Sorry for going off the thread but I have just seen something that may help Farepak customers who paid by credit card. For further info see:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article...

and the 2nd half of

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1955820,00.html?g...

Hope it helps someone

#41. El Gringo - Hitler was democratically elected also (like Hitler without a majority of the vote) but, presumably, you do not have a problem with him having been violently overthrown.

With Allende at the helm, the Chilean economy was going down the tubes and the country was in chaos. If Pinochet had not intervened, there is a possibility that Allende would have tried to convert Chile into a one party Marxist state (like that run by his friend Fidel Castro) but that can only remain as speculation. Did you really expect that, during the Cold War, the USA was going to allow a Soviet-friendly state to exist in its "sphere of influence" any more than the Soviet Union would have allowed a free Hungary in 1956?

May he rot in hell, the butcher of Chile.

The only reason Chile is now doing so well is because it is the darling of the West's neo-liberal free market economic piracy.

35#
This was the way of the World during the Cold War; the West supported regimes which would now be considered beyond the pale

Don't kid yourself. It was the way of the world then and it's the way of the world now

NUNCA MAS

Good riddance to bad rubbish but I would have liked that disgusting, degenerate scumbag have spent the rest of his days languishing in pain in prison.

And Maggie Thatcher must be completely gaga by now to come out with her message of regret concerning the Butcher of Chile. And to think that that woman will probably get a lavish funeral paid for by British taxpayers AND an equally lavish memorial service at Westminst Abbey. She should be ashamed to defend such vermin.

State justice is not a natural guarantee on earth but is a goal for society to come to terms with as in the case of Chile’s Augusto Pinochet demise today. Internal and external state forces operative in the times of cold war politics were in such personalities ‘chosen’ to lead their states. Justice, for all, is as much collective and in the case of Chile’s fallen leader its outcome of fair or unfair is not always known to the hearts and minds of its citizens that are vested with its stewardship of self-history. Who is to weigh the end of any man’s life? Great fictional or historic leaders leave behind for us all who are observers to continue to share in the mind of the state that allows for messy rotten stuff to happen. For the dead ones in Chile we all are living with the injustice of a world that we make happen – so how messy it could have been, would have been, or is, remains for all to live just and honorably so as we avoid future tragedies and woes. Let’s never give up finding the source of inside the body politic as death is not an ending on earth as long as we strive to be just and honorable to the history.

No.46
Well said,agree with you totally.
Thatcher was also dictator were Scotland was concerned during her time, with all her "nice" little experiments she would try out first on us and if they worked fine and if not who cared.

#31--Margaret--With the quality of world leaders we have today, I hope they attend the funeral and jump down the hole after him!

#40--SC--Fascism was not defeated. Today, you are witnessing what its leaders plan as its final triumph in the world. The New World Order is coming based on the power of the de facto fascist United States. The police state, Constitution-overturning, legislation has been approved by both major parties--and the party of indifference...those too stupid, too lazy or too indifferent to find their way to the polls.

While the Corporatist media beats up on skin-head thugs decked out in their Halloween finery in Skokie of such places, the Corporatists/Fascists, with the able assistance of their Third Reich Operation Paperclip imports, have been busy hollowing out the US economy, fomenting wars and maintaining the 'strategy of tension' have set the nation to a course of war and the inevitable consolidation of power that this brings.

Stick him in a wheelie bin and take him to a landfill site.

SC # 10

Cuba is the way it is because of the US "beggar thy neighbour" policies. Would it be a better place if the Mafia was still running it?

Scotty (#25, 26), Why would you want to exclude someone from a "reasoned debate" simply because you don't agree with/believe in their point of view? That smacks a little of the very dictatorship for which the likes of Pinochet are condemned. The contibutor you rail against has the same right to express their (to use your words) "prehistoric fundamentalism" as you do to express your atheistic fundamentalism.

PINOCHET ASSUMES

Gen. Augusto Pinochet (91) assumes
full political - though not explicitly legal –
responsibility for crimes of his regime.

"Today, nearing the end of my days,
I want to say, I must say, I do say
I harbour no rancour against anybody,
I love my Fatherland above all &
I take political responsibility
for everything that was done
which had no other goal
than making Chile greater
& avoiding its disintegration.”

He envisions himself borne into Heaven
by Chilean Jesuit-baroque angellini
in crisp white Chilean Navy uniforms,
praising his baptismal name.

.
(04 DEC 06, Santa Clara CA)

You can see why Margaret Thatcher and he were buddies ; not sure how close ttey actually got though, hmmm...! They had a lot in common when you think about the unjustified loss of life with the sinking of the Belgrano!

There is no hell unfortuanatley but let his grave forever be spat upon. Shame on the US for helping this fascist overthrow a democracy. Shame on Thatcher for supporting him. Shame on Labour's Jack Straw for not allowing the Spanish to extradite him. Whilst some members of the church fought him, shame again on the Pope for supporting another fascist dictator.

#54. Calum Crubag - apparently he is to be cremated so there will be no grave to be spat upon (rather a disgusting notion in any case).
If it were not for this "fascist" then Chile would, in all likelyhood, have decended into chaos and become a Soviet style state (or do you think all the Cuban and Soviet advisors invited in by Allende were there as cultural ambassadors). Additionally, the Falklands may well now be called the Malvinas and still be under the controll of a fascist Argentinian Government.
Shame on you for having no understanding of Realpolitik.

I remember, by pure chance, trawling short wave radio at that time and hearing "In Chile, Salvador ..." before powerful jammers (obviously not from the Soviets) blotted out something like "Allende has been elected President." I correctly guessed that it would not be long before Comrade President Salvador Allende was eliminated.

Sadly, too many Catholics (and of course others such as "Thug Thatcher"), in their correct opposition to atheistic Communism, went over the top and justified any dictator, however awful, if he claimed to be against Communism.
Fortunately, there are some signs that current Pope Benedict XVI will follow a more balanced line.

We should remember the sound Biblical principle, not only for the Old Testament, but for all true religion:-
Deuteronomy 24:16 'Parents may not be put to death for their children, nor children for parents, but each must be put to death for his own crime.

"Guilt by association" is the motive for immoral actions by all who say "A Purple has been killed by a Brown, so we Purples must kill a Brown (irrespective of what that individual Brown has or has not done) to make up for it."

"Guilt by association" is the motive for immoral actions by all who say "A Purple has been killed by a Brown, so we Purples must kill a Brown (irrespective of what that individual Purple has or has not done) to make up for it."

I visited Chile on business many times after 1974 and never talked to anyone who didn't feel the coup was necessary.
They felt Allende was ruining the economy and intended to turn Chile in to a one party state.
They were unhappy that they had to have a non-democratic government as they were proud of Chile's history as the oldest democracy in South America, but were sure military rule would be temporary, and they were right.
They were upset at the world opinion which was formed by listening to the people who had fled and had an axe to grind.

What religion is the Spanish judge who tried to extradite Pinochet to Spain? What religion is Margaret Thatcher and the US president who supported the criminal Pinochet? What religion are you who attempt to implicate the Catholic church with Pinochet? The Catholic church accepts every person however bad; even you!

So Pinochet "saved Chile from communism".
PLEASE... ALL the ranting right wingers supporting Penochet here; Explain why the West , U.S.A., Canada, and Britain is doing so much trade with RED COMMUNIST CHINA?.Many of the companies that have invested in the U.S., such as the one that owns most of the U.S. ports on the West coast..IS OWNED BY THE RED CHINESE GOVERNMENT. Explain this please ,you "M.F".s why is this "good" for us?(I think NOT)

I met a couple of people in the early 1980s who had been tortured by Pinochet's gang and had had friends murdered. The economy of Chile was not uppermost in their considerations; human rights was.

Castigate Pinochet if you must but by some quirk of fate Chile is the strongest economy in Latin America /////by a country mile , I wonder how Fidels friend Allende would handled the situation maybe another Cuba or East Germany we will never know

It was dreadful of thatcher to say what she said, but then she was and still is a bit of a loose cannon on the deck of political thought. I remember from the time of Pinochet's arrest, the columnist and twit, Boris Johnson, now a tory mp, said, if his name had been Pin O'Shea and an Irish freedom fighter you'd have all revered him. Boris is still talking offensive muck these days, long may he continue to represent the true voice of British conservatism. He is a star by which we may all be guided away from all such poisonous politicians, no matter how cute and lovably eccentric they may first appear. He is like anal hair, he does a poor job of concealing the eseential nastiness of the outpourings of his business end. Not as bad as thatcher though, she will follow the lovely pinochet soon.

What will we hear of her then? Not as bad as old Pinochet.

sorry about the spelling mistake, essential is what I meant, not eseential, sorry but the shiraz got the better of me, someone now might say the shiraz wrote the whole post, well that shiraz sure talked some sense,

well if torture makes a strong economy, Hotspur, let's get on down with it, but would it be worth it? You're use of the term, "by a country mile" rings a bell have you been on before, last time by a coincidence we were talking about thatcher being a top british pm?

I agree with Harry Carnie.
WHY, when Chinese Communism was far worse than Russian Communism, did we fight the Cold war against Russia rather than against China?

59 Harry Carnie says
So Pinochet "saved Chile from communism".
PLEASE... ALL the ranting right wingers supporting Penochet here; Explain why the West , U.S.A., Canada, and Britain is doing so much trade with RED COMMUNIST CHINA?.Many of the companies that have invested in the U.S., such as the one that owns most of the U.S. ports on the West coast..IS OWNED BY THE RED CHINESE GOVERNMENT. Explain this please ,you "M.F".s why is this "good" for us?(I think NOT)

Boris Johnson is an old Etonian. But, his political views are likely to be very similar to those of tory leader David Macaroon, who is very much better at public relations and keeping his own council.
However, they are cut from the same cloth as Pinochet, the "born to rule" mob.
Whilst Boris Johnson can be dismissed as a crank, there are plenty more out there with a similar background to him in places of influence and they will do anything, like Pinochet, to achieve their desired outcomes.
The likes of Pinochet should not be seen again.

well pete that's right, but the likes of boris will turn people from conservatism despite the best efforts of macaroon, that's what I call him too, no doubt because fast show comedians did a spoof of the titanic, featuring someone as director James Macaroon.

I noticed on BBC they were showing the crowd of Pinochet supporters outside the hospital throwing water over the BBC Journalist due to what she called ' their hate of the British for detaining their former leader' .. but the whole thing was a scam from start to end .. the British quit pro for his help in the Falklands campaign.. and it worked - saved him from a trial .. while HMG goes on supporting or doing business with even bloodier dictators ....

#55. So what? A socialist democracy is better than a fascist dictatorship where people are murdered wholesale by the state. I think Argentina has more claim to the Malvinas than England does anyway. Wonder who stole them first?

http://www.communistvampires.com/

( *laughing out loud* )

Pinochet has gone to that place where one does not have to reach far to light one's cigarette.I have no doubt that he will be closely followed by Thatcher, when one remembers what appalling murders were comitted by her security forces in collusion with loyalist murder gangs in the north east of Ireland.A campaign of sectarian slaughter was conducted against the Roman Catholic population of that part of Ireland.Almost all of their victims were innocent uninvolved soft targets, men women and children murdered for no other reason other than the fact that they were Roman Catholic.The UDA UFF UVF UDR RUC SAS LVF,and British army between them ,murdered almost two thousand Roman Catholics,presumably to force the IRA in to submission.The agenda of the loyalist gangs was simply a lust for Catholic blood.However the British security forces failed in their agenda,as the IRA did not capitulate.Lets not forget for one moment the innocent victms of IRA violence,they must always be remembered at all times.

This song has been in my head all day. Pinochet will rot, but this song will go on forever.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1219-20.htm

I've taken note of #2, Paranoid underacheiver's words & I'm trying to make my words for Gen Pinochent & his ilk soft. Days like this make me wish that I had the blessed assurance Calvanists have that all must face a God of justice, power & might. We atheists don't have that assurance; however, we atheists, may be wrong; I hope to the Presbyterian God.
Will the deaths of Lady Thatcher, Mr Blair, W & co & their ilk be met with vindictive joy & rioting on on side & humble sorrow on the other side?

Don't you think it's weird that people would dance in the steets because a very old man died?
Children might think it's a wake.

#69. Calum Crubag - a "socialist democracy"? I don't think this is what Allende had in mind but rather a socialist one party state like his pal Castro. One does not invite Cuban and Soviet advisors into the coutry to advise on how to run a democracy. Chile was decending into chaos both economically and politically and it would have only been a matter of time before the country collapse into anarchy and perhaps even civil war.
The dictates of the Cold War meant that the West could not allow the Soviet client state to emerge in South America even if it was democratically elected. If the Reichswehr (a right-wing Army if ever there was one and presumably one you would label "fascist") had moved in 1933 to oust the democratically elected Hitler, executed thousands of Brownshirts, restored the monarchy and provised a return to democracy by 1950, what would be your stance? Good thing or bad thing?

"I think Argentina has more claim to the Malvinas than England does anyway. Wonder who stole them first?" - perhaps you would care to visit the Pegasus Bar in Aldershot (or any of the nice pubs in Stanley)and repeat your opinion. I can guarentee you a lively debate.

Next in line for despatch to Hades, Thatcher, the butcher of the Malvinas. The sinking of the General Belgrano was a war crime.Dont take my word for it,listen to the anguish of the mothers of the 500 boys sent to a watery grave whilst sailing outside the exclusion zone.

Sorry, Donald. Who are you to decry democracy when it dosen't give you the result you want. Lets just stick to the facts. A demoracy was overthrown by a fascist dictator. This put back social, health and educational reform by years.

What right does England have to islands (it took by force) that lie off the coast of Argentina on the otherside of the world? Should the Isle of Wight belong to ARgentina? As to soldiers. Less of them would die if it weren't for the greedy land grabbing short-term political and economic aims of governments. Look at how they're treated by their own commanders. The guys in Iraq now fighting Blair's war don't even have the right equipment. The ones who survived Malvinas and Iraq I have been shoddily treated too. Isn't this what Bush had to face up to last week?

#49-prinzowhales-dude, you're a loon, but sometimes you scare me by being so on target. I can not but agree here.. does that make me a loon ? (bEEN CALLED MUCH WORSE) #50-pete- NAH, not the landfill, the garden for compost.

#3--mervin--i agree.......

#78 2dogs in D.C.--...to paraphrase, an oft too much quoted movie on this forum...'If I'm a loon, I've come to the right place, eh?'

#6--guga--how offensive to include Pres. Bush & PM Blair w/this monster. it's so you..................

#25--scotty--if castro did so much for the ordinary latino, then why are sooooo many ordinary latinos risking the dangerous waters in makeshift boats to get to the USA & many dying while trying?? please enlighten me.........................

I can only hope that Lady Thatcher will soon be reunited with her beloved Pinochet. She will remain one of the few Prime Ministers who will never have statues erected in her honour or paintings hung in the National Galleries. People of my generation who suffered the loss of communities and years of unemployment would never allow such depictions of her. She was a monster.

Chile could boast some economic success. But that was the work of Salvador Allende - who saved his nation, miraculously, a decade after his death.

In 1973, the year General Pinochet brutally seized the government, Chile’s unemployment rate was 4.3%. In 1983, after ten years of free-market modernization, unemployment reached 22%. Real wages declined by 40% under military rule.

In 1970, 20% of Chile’s population lived in poverty. By 1990, the year “President” Pinochet left office, the number of destitute had doubled to 40%. Quite a "miracle" of free market.

Pinochet did not destroy Chile’s economy all alone. It took nine years of hard work by the most brilliant minds in world academia, a gaggle of Milton Friedman’s trainees, the Chicago Boys. Under the spell of their theories, the General abolished the minimum wage, outlawed trade union bargaining rights, privatized the pension system, abolished all taxes on wealth and on business profits, slashed public employment, privatized 212 state industries and 66 banks and ran a fiscal surplus.

Freed of the dead hand of bureaucracy, taxes and union rules, the country took a giant leap forward … into bankruptcy and depression. After nine years of economics Chicago style, Chile’s industry keeled over and died. In 1982 and 1983, GDP dropped 19%. The free-market experiment was kaput, the test tubes shattered. Blood and glass littered the laboratory floor. Yet, with remarkable chutzpah, the mad scientists of Chicago declared success. In the US, President Ronald Reagan’s State Department issued a report concluding, “Chile is a casebook study in sound economic management.” Milton Friedman himself coined the phrase, “The Miracle of Chile.” Friedman’s sidekick, economist Art Laffer, preened that Pinochet’s Chile was, “a showcase of what supply-side economics can do.”

By 1982, the pyramid finance game was up. The Vial and Cruzat “Grupos” defaulted. Industry shut down, private pensions were worthless, the currency swooned. Riots and strikes by a population too hungry and desperate to fear bullets forced Pinochet to reverse course. He booted his beloved Chicago experimentalists. Reluctantly, the General restored the minimum wage and unions’ collective bargaining rights. Pinochet, who had previously decimated government ranks, authorized a program to create 500,000 jobs. In other words, Chile was pulled from depression by dull old Keynesian remedies, all Franklin Roosevelt, zero Reagan/Thatcher. New Deal tactics rescued Chile from the Panic of 1983, but the nation’s long-term recovery and growth since then is the result of - cover the children’s ears - a large dose of socialism.

To save the nation’s pension system, Pinochet nationalized banks and industry on a scale unimagined by Communist Allende. The General expropriated at will, offering little or no compensation. While most of these businesses were eventually re-privatized, the state retained ownership of one industry: copper.

For nearly a century, copper has meant Chile and Chile copper. University of Montana metals expert Dr. Janet Finn notes, “Its absurd to describe a nation as a miracle of free enterprise when the engine of the economy remains in government hands.” Copper has provided 30% to 70% of the nation’s export earnings. This is the hard currency which has built today’s Chile, the proceeds from the mines seized from Anaconda and Kennecott in 1973 - Allende’s posthumous gift to his nation.

Agribusiness is the second locomotive of Chile’s economic growth. This also is a legacy of the Allende years. According to Professor Arturo Vasquez of Georgetown University, Washington DC, Allende’s land reform, the break-up of feudal estates (which Pinochet could not fully reverse), created a new class of productive tiller-owners, along with corporate and cooper

The article above is by Greg Palast, not me, but what the heck, it seemed relevant.

In reply to James Donald, ( no 42, in reply to my no 41), I think you're being a bit ( intentionally ? ) naive in comparing Allende with Hitler. Allende had no plans to "anschluss" other neighbouring South American countries, alleging maltreatment of Chilean minorites in them. Allende did not persecute minorities to the death within Chile. Allende did not provoke even a local war, let alone a world one.
You are, though, right to say the USA could not stand by and see communism take hold in what they consider their backyard. The USA always had this irrational phobia about communism, and generally messed up when they tried to stop it.
Cuba is a prime example. The USA drove Castro to adhere to the then USSR. Cuba in the 50's was a mafia owned and run US playground, where native cubans without influence ( enchufe ) had a career choice of, boys -- bootblacks, or if lucky, waiters, and girls -- whores, or if lucky, waitresses.
When Castro took over, the USA backed the mafia to take Cuba over again to return to the Batista status quo. Is it any wonder Castro looked for help from the USSR ? My enemy's enemy is my friend, as the saying goes. It is not easy for a European to understand a South or Central American context.
The grinding poverty, blatant corruption, lack of basic services, lack of opportunity. Don't sit in your middle class suburbs and talk about South America like it was an abstract problem. It's all too real for millions.

Conan and a few others have already made the valuable point that this fuss over Pinochet is arrant hypocrisy.
By coincidence i watched The Lost City last Sunday at the Jakarta Film Festival. It was a good movie but stands out from Hollywood's usual drivel by its clear picture of Castro's evil little empire.
I also re-read Red Jakarta, -- what if' the PKI had taken power in 1965, the horror that would have befallen Indonesia.
Pinochet saved Chile and helped us out during the Falklands War when many of his lefty critics were undermining the war effort against a fascist junta.
I shall be dancing on the table when that beast Castro kicks his gold-plated bucket.

Hi, Graecus and others.
Cuba is by no means perfect, but Castro is still in power, not like Allende, who was too trusting, and paid the price. Wasn't Pinochet in an important military position under Allende ? Didn't he betray his trust, and oaths of allegiance to his employer, the legitimate Chilean government ?
Also, in reply to an earlier query ( no 81 ), yes, people are leaving Cuba as the economy is shot. Why is it shot ? Because for years the Cubans were forced to depend on the Russians, and now they can't. And remember, they were forced into the Russians' arms in the first place by a corrupt US government ( Dear me, can there be such a thing ? ) Another reason is the ludicrous U.S. blockade and embargo on Cuba which has gone on now for far too long. The politicians want to keep the Cuban-exile-in-Miami vote, ( i.e. those who prospered under Batista, and who had to get out when Castro took over ). And so, "let's screw them commie sonsabitches !"

None so notorious and terrible as HITLER #3 Mervin. Now here is a curous phenomenon - where is the Right on the issue of the RAPE of TIBET by China under Mao? Could it be that the profits on Chinese slave labor are enough to silence the Right on the matter? Could it be that at times it is convenient for the Right to play the Left. Dp tell, why is Tony Blair's "Labor" party in bed with George Bush?

#87 Fascism is be definition Right wing. The fascist manifesto was conceived at the turn of the last century in Italy in response to the perceived threat of Communism. Therefore NOBODY on the left supports fascism. Nearly every country south of the USA has been fighting oppressive FASCIST RIGHT WING miliatry regimes at least since the mid sixties.

#65 Dai, Because China isn't Communist, after all, it has only been parading itself as Commuinst. Do you really think the principle of distributing wealth could extend itself to an exponentially rising population without completely bankrupting the government? The Chinese numbered only 500 million in the 1950's as compared with a billion and a half today? What do you think Marx would say about the Chinese IMPERIALIST invasion and RAPE of Tibet ... or even of the slave wage, today? I recall a certain series of passages in Marx's Critique of Capital in which he condemns slave labor and is very critical of working conditions in industrial England at the turn of the century which China's resemble. If China was communist it would have to be a non Marxist Communism which would be totally absurd as it was Marx and Engels, after all, who wrote the manifesto.

#77. Calum Crubag - I am entitled to express my opinion even if it upsets sensitive lefties. If we are sticking to the facts (wasn't aware that this was a condition whilst posting comments) - Allende was overthrown by a Military Junta of which Pinochet was one of the leaders (he only became sole leader later) and can only be called "fascist" in the way that the far-Left usually label such leaders (SWP and SSP types often call Thatcher a "fascist" as a form of mud slinging).

"This put back social, health and educational reform by years" - I thought we were sticking to the facts, this reads like an opinion to me. The fact is that Pinochet for all his many faults, handed power back to democracy and Chile is now a relatively rich nation compared to its neighbours.

88. El Gringo - there is no direct comparison between Hitler and Pinochet other than that they were both democratically elected with a minority of the electorate. As the only elected Communist leader he is often hailed by sandle-wearing pinkos in their middle-class suburbs etc.... as a shining example of the far-Left cruelly snuffed out by the bogey man Pinochet. The truth is not quite so simple - Allende was moving his country towards a one-party Communist state, which would be in the Soviet sphere of influence and that is why the US gave the green light to the Army coup.
I don't see the USA as having an irrational phobia about Communism - the aim of Communism is World revolution and not by peaceful means or democracy. Castro looked to the Soviet Union for help beacause it was a Communist state and nobody else was liable to lend a hand. Cuban Communist forces were very active in Africa and elsewhere helping to install Communist regimes (Angola and Mozambique being prime examples).
The fast Armies of the Warsaw pact were not there to defend peaceful Socialist countries from attack by the "fascist" West any more than the Berlin Wall was an "anti-fascist protection barrier". In Cold War days especially, my enemy's enemy was indeed my friend and in this respect Allende was an enemy of the West.

#93.Mr McDonald, you talk nonsense! I was present in Chile when Allende was elected. Yes elected in a peaceful well run balloting system. He made no secret of his Marxist views, he never at any time declared communism as his goal. His formed government included the Christian Democrats, Egalitarian Party, Peasant Union and Socialists.His wife and my wife both taught at a College under the auspices of the ILO, a UN body, and a democratic institution that Pinochet's goon squads later fire bombed. The US had agents in Chile at least a year before the coupe and indeed even before the elections and in retrospect I can now assume that they were CIA although they all claimed to be working on contract for the copper industry or were seconded by the International Nickel Company or Anaconda.President Allende made it clear before and after his election that a fairer share from Copper mining was a priority, not Nationalisation but Harmonisation was his slogan, but without Harmonisation then Nationalisation was his promise. The US Industrial Military complex then did its foul deed. Hypothetically, should Scotland in its dream for Independance seek control of North Sea oil then another coupe would occur. I was persona non gratis in Chile until ten years ago and the feeling of Love for Allende still shines and incidentally the hatred for the UK, thanks to major Anaconda shareholder Thatcher, will always be there.

Socialmedic # 91 how conveniently selective his/her theory of Socialism and Communism. let's not forget that the revolution in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union unleashed long-suppressed animosities against both Communism and Socialism the world over.

When it comes to these two ideologies mentioned above. didn't Marx with Engels who wrote the Communist Manifesto say that socialism around the world will inevitably move towards communism. both are right.

In our country.Blair's socialist fascism has totally disfigured the political integrity of the House of Commons and the House of Lords with his Labour socialism. and like a true communist leader Blair believes he is not accountable to anybody. no wonder most people now say that Blair is thoroughly indoctrinated by communism he is always visiting communist countries. that they wouldn't be that surprised if Blair was a card-carrying communist.

After the 1997 General Election in the UK. the great ex- prime minister Margaret Thatcher said society that we know today will not exist under Labour Government and it's socialism sadly as we have found out to our cost.Thatcher's prediction came true.

Reading between the lines of the following statement from the president of the Chilean Catholic Bishops' Conference his "opinion about the lack of respect for human dignity that there was during his [Pinochet's] government" is close to mine.

SANTIAGO, Chile, DEC. 11, 2006 (www.zenit.org).- The president of the Chilean bishops' conference urged his fellow countrymen to avoid provocations in the wake of General Augusto Pinochet's death Sunday.

Bishop Alejandro Goic, in a statement released by the conference, said: "Beyond the historical judgment on his figure, in the face of the majesty of death inevitable for every human being, the correct attitude is one of respect. And those of us who believe, raise a prayer for his rest."

The bishop also made a fraternal appeal to the national community to "avoid provocations, in favor and against" the former leader, added the note.

"The country needs to reflect on this event with peace and respect," said Bishop Goic of Rancagua. "I personally have my own opinion about the lack of respect for human dignity that there was during his government. But what is in order is to live these hours with dignity."

He also appealed for respect for the government's decision on the funeral: "The political leaders will seek the best thing to unite Chileans."

The bishop also reminded Chileans that "for Christians what is most important is the encounter with God, who has mercy, even on the greatest sinners."

Hello, again,
In reply to no 93, I would ask James Donald, "Have you ever been out of your own middle class suburb ?" Or out of Scotland ? Or out of Europe ? You sound very much like a right-wing university student of the early 70's, who thought they knew it all. Oh, yes, the left thought THEY had all the answers too. Neither side, right or left, has or had the answers to Latin America's problems.
However, the USA founded ( and well-funded ) anti communist spray-gun was not the answer to any issues faced by that unfortunate continent. South America was colonised on the same basis, more or less as the USA. "Give me your hungry, poor etc."
Thousands, well, millions, in fact, flocked there, and not only from Spain, Portugal and Italy. There are huge Irish, Scottish, German, Polish, Ukrainian etc communities. However, whereas the standard of living generally went up in the USA, in S. America,
many descendents of immigrants are trying to return to their ancestors' lands.

#97. El Gringo - I'll spare you my travel details of the last 25 years but suffice to say that I have travelled abroad often (sometimes at Government expence) but have never been to University. I did not waste all of my time at school however so your facts about the ethnic composition of the Americas were already known to me. My latest reading material, the book Slovenia 1945 gives some details of the Slovenian population over there and how they got there if you are interested in the subject. Since most were fleeing Tito's murderous partizans (Tito being another pal of Castro and Allende), I do not think they would have been over-keen on Allende's "Socialist experiment".

Having spend some time during my formative years (when you thought I should have been a right-wing student - might have been a cushier number) facing the "beastly Bolsheviks" over the Inner German border with my WW2 vintage Bren Gun, I too saw anything remotly resembling a Commie on ourside of the fence as a potential "Gladio target". Whilst I did not approve of Pinochet's methods (and never will do) I saw him as the lesser of 2 evils in what then seemed a distant land. I was far more concerned with the Communists in Western Europe (particularly France and Italy) - they seemed more of an immediate threat.

I also saw the USA as a "necessary evil" during the Cold War even if some of their actions were were unpleasant or inept. See them very differently now.

Pinochet is dead, to be cremated (so no one can spit on his grave etc....) so the Left will need to find a new bogey man.

#####Echelon 10#####
In the land where the one eyed man is King, the man the King seeks, who is neither blind nor one eyed, yet still he cannot see, is the man starting out on the trail of enlightenment. For the seeker of enlightenment may not have the sight of the one eyed man, and has yet to learn, but has the vision to seek out answers.

There are Kings that seek wisdom,
And those that seek tripe,
The wise search for knowledge,
The tripe full of hype,
The King seeking wisdom,
Is the teacher of men,
The seeker of tripe,
Finds ECHELON 10.

#####Echelon 10#####

The wheel it does spin,
But the hamster looks dead,
What’s left of your brain cells,
Have practically fled,
Your infantile verse,
Is more of a purge,
The more that I read,
The vomit did surge,
You’re obviously happy,
As ignorance is bliss,
So pucker your lips,
My arse needs a kiss.

nice lyrics :-)

99. Andrew Allan - Your on the sauce early for a Tuesday.......

#94. Virgil - My name is not McDonald, if fact the McDonalds are the traditional enemy of my clan and such a slight 300 years ago would have cost you dear.....but times change and the World moves on. I hope it does not take 300 years for Chile to move on from the Allende-Pinochet era.

"I was persona non gratis in Chile until ten years ago and the feeling of Love for Allende still shines" so you are hardly a non-Partisan party then. Allende was a Marxist (Marxist, Communists, Bolsheviks all Sh**heads just different labels they hide behind) and as such perceived as a threat to the West (and US economic interests). Surely to great Allende much have expected some reaction from the US to his policies (subversion or direct intervention) but what did he do in preparation? Appoint his nemesis to the head of the Army.

#78 2 dogs in D.C.---To paraphrase a line in a movie already too oft quoted in these pages, If I'm a loon 'it seems I've come to the right place, eh?'

#97 El Gringo your mistaken assumption that Mr Donald had attended a school of higher learning has been corrected by the subject himself. However your main remarks are cogent.Mr Donald has never served in literary company and he makes this obvious by his writing. I also apologise to Mr Donald for mispronouncing his name. I do however maintain the prelude to my first posting, he was talking nonsense before and he continues without empirical knowledge to participate in a debate for which he has not been able to understand and continues to confuse himself in the search for "isms" in any profound form.I find it worthless to continue, he is in a sorry state of catholic vision.

#103. Virgil - What you maintain or not I do not give a stuff. If you are a Marxist of the Allende school then your creed is a discredited relic of an earlier age. Sorry if my standard of writing is not up snuff but my "sevice" was in the military helping defend Western Europe.
If you "find it worthless to continue" then great, you will spare us any more of your pompous posts.

Correspondent Jeremy McDermott refers to Pinochet as "former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet."

It's always curious to note how the socialist left and their media aids are oh so very respectful or blatantly neutral toward communist dictators. Mr. McDermott refers to Fidel Castro as simply Fidel Castro. Not dictator Fidel Castro? Why not call a spade a spade while we're shovelling manure? I would say this article most definitely has a certain aroma emanating from it.

Some balance and perspective would be nice.

Like all tyrants, Allende was a liar with little regard for the rule of law. He acquired a minority 36% of the vote, then proceeded to interpret his weak elective support as a great mandate for his own socialist policies. He quickly began destroying the very constitution that swept him into office. While the Chilean courts denounced Allende's unconstitutional disregard for the rule of law, he retaliated by refusing to enforce over 7,000 court rulings. Chile soon became ruled by gangs, thugs, and Marxist revolutionaries. His government took control of private industry and began unauthorized seizure of agricultural lands.

As his utopia world began to collapse around him... Well, I think we know the familiar socialist mantra by now. Me good, capitalists eeevil! Must kill evil capitalists! As Chile's economy succumbed to triple-digit inflation, murder, thievery, restricted speech and all out CHAOS, Allende planned to consolidate power by permanent means. Pinochet put an end to the destruction of his country. It was either kill or be killed.

Documents that were found in the presidential palace following the coup outlined Allende's plan to massacre his conservative military opponents and some 600 politicians, journalists, and conservative opposition members by the end of 1973. Not surprisingly, Allende committed suicide.

Pinochet was no more than a typical military dictator of a type seen all over Latin America. Chile

Right.

Thank you, JEREMY MCDERMOTT.
You write the bad news about him, but he – now in his grave – can never reply to your asinine assignations.

My, how bloody damned convenient!
He defeated the socialists, and you are one of them, aren't you?

He proved that you miserable, mean-hearted stealers of life, were not worth much more than thieves.

And, now in his death, you seek to defile his essence.
I will guess that I should have seen that coming.
A man/woman dies, and his unworthy foes seek to defecate upon his grave.

So be it.
And when you die, allow me to engage in the purile and profane, at your expense, all the while where you cannot reply.
Okay?