Well, that bug***ed my plans for joining the Taleban then; I like smoking.

Anyway, I suppose an atheist is probably considered as an infidel, so I'm stuffed there too.

To join the Taliban? You must be an " illiterate" and Smoke poppy, not cigarettes made in USA.

#3 - Don't be put off so easily & believe in your faith.

So why do we care?

Let them kill eachother in whichever barbaric ways they want. Why should we be bothered we have enough trouble of our own.

Let them murder, rape and destroy eachother, thats their culture, let them carry on with it..

We should support them! The only other alternative is to pretend that we care, send in troops based on humanitarian purposes and take their oil..Sorted!

I say let them carry on with their archaic cultural barbarism

Rule No.19. So it is ok to take someone with facial hair into into their private quarters ?

The Taleban should have advised the fighters to refrain from temptation for what awaits them in paradise as the Koran promises:-

Koran 52.24 And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."
Koran 76.19 They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."

Maybe they have no faith in what the Koran promises them in the future ?

Sir/Madam:
Taleban is back in business in Afghanistan because of allies like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

When allied forces were about to capture Kandahar, Pakistan airlifted key Taleban leaders, Mullah Omar, Pakistani fighters and ISI people.

The US and its allies ignored this. Now the cost of the wrong friends/allies is going to be huge.

Well: Islam has strict religious teachings. Despite these, one can be only baffled by the Mujahideens' love for young boys! Are these religious teachings meant for public consumptions and others?
Regards,

The muslim insurgents had already this teacher-killing habit when they fought the soviets in the early 80's. Maybe we should have been then less obsessed with the communists and more about this barbaric religious zealots.

President Hamid Karzai must keep enforcing Rule 303.

Media 1 #4 - You ask "Why do we care?" The answer to that is quite simple. As society changes and more and more people come to live in the West from Islamic cultures so the beliefs and laws will change.

This happens all the time of course, but the recent (last 20 years) have shown large numbers moving West. They bring with them demands for imposition of their beliefs and laws. This means that although the majority of people living in the West are loosely christian they will be dominated by the Islamic minority in the West.

Ultimately or laws will change and you will have summary executions, torture, barbarity, etc.. That is why we must all care.

#9 : I disagree, if they behave like animals and murder eachother then let them go ahead and do it.

It does not impact on our world unless we let it. They are mindless killers who live in a world which is some 1000 years behind ours, so let them rot and murder eachother.

Krishna,
is love for young boys only allowed in paradise then?

#9, ok then we must care, but tell us what we must do? educate them? give them lots of financial aid?

it won't work! these jokers along with the others in Israel are beyond help - but remember it is all of us who is actually wrong!

We should thank one-eye for this timely reminder that all religions are all bad, all of the time. Their first concern is always, always always, "I believe the following.. therefore YOU must obey MY rules, revealed to me by the god I define... or else!"

By the way Dick #1 - when slagging teachers it's a good idea to check spelling. Your grammar proper sux.

All i can say is tell them to adopt rule 666 or do they have that already work with the devil

Why should care?

1. They turn their so called great god into a pimp after they blow themselves up..7 virgin a$$es for a bit of bump n grind

2. They see cartoons of the chap they call Al and then like good and decent law abiding god fearing people, begin to behave like lawless heathens.

3. Their enemies pray to a wall whilst rocking back an forth

4. They stone people to death.

5. They persecute their women.

6. They disrespect your beliefs and religion but consider it paramount that you respect theirs

GUESS WHAT! No way I care,let them kill eachother

I would think there could be a market for razors there. Keep the face smooth no problem.

Hey it's not the teachers fault, they teach WHAT they are told to teach, just that some of them can't even be arsed with that. Root out the lazy teachers, have you ever heard of one being sacked because they were bad at teaching? So are we to believe thay are all good? ha ha ha yea right

Media 1 #10 - Your reply seems to be very blinkered and bitter. The only sensible thing that you say is "It does not impact on our world unless we let it.", that is the crux of the problem for the West. Too often our leaders try to follow the PC brigade and are sucked into discriminating against its own people.

& common sense voice #13 - You ask what should we do. One simple thing would be to enforce our existing laws on incomers. They should be treated fairly within the law but the law must prevail. If they incite viloence then they must be imprisoned or sent back to where they come from.

The immigration rules must be enforced and indeed tightened up to ensure that radicals are not allowed in in the first place.

We must educacte those who are already here to ensure that they understand or culture and to help them conform, it is not for us to conform to their ways.

If we do not do something now we are in grave danger of being overrun by an aggressive culture. That is why we must care, not about the fanatics but about ourselves.

Good to see that at least they are agin' child abuse! Come to think of it, I believe the brainwashing of any child into a religion is child abuse, whether it is Islam, Christianity, Judaism or any other superstition. These types of laws are the kind of guff that is laid down in the Christian / Jewish bible in the Old Testament. Death to all 'fidels' I say! (...umm, not Castro's family, just all the gullible believers of religion.... well, actually, not really, um, 'death' as such, just a little shaking of heads...)
ps - we should bomb Afghanistan, Pakistan, the US Senate and White House, Jerusalem, the Vatican etc with a few million copies of Richard Dawkin's 'The God Delusion' to knock a little enlightenment into these gullible, dangerous, anti-enlightenment fools.. (available from all good bookshops now!!)

We invaded Afghanistan for our own benefit. The Afghanistan economy has been wrecked, the oil pipeline from Central Asia to the Indian Ocean has not been built but drug production is at an all-time high.

It was foreseeable that all these bad things would come about as a result of our illegal actions, so is it surprising that Taliban has gained strength as a result?

Eventually we will have to leave, as we did a centrury ago, and let them get on with their own lives. We will have gained nothing, our losses will be immense.

The same argument applies to Iraq, and the same argument applies to our support for the Zionist invasion of Palestine.

All we are doing is creating terrorists, at tremendous cost to ourselves in more ways than one

#19 My reply is not blinkered, it is EYES WIDE OPEN! As far as bitter is concerned, I would say it is more free and fair..

I do not agree with their culture, but then who am I to judge them. Let them carry on with their killings and archaic laws and we can get on with our progress!

Embroil ourselves in their culture( A culture we know nothing about) and it will bite you.

I chose to turn my back on them! Not wasting my time worrying about savages! No need for me to do that, my ancestors worlked darn hard to ensure that my life was easier than theirs. They invented planes, trains, cars,electricity etc. I respect them for that and I will not worry about these heathens

To Media 1, comments nos. 10 and 16:

"Let them go ahead and do it" etc. – the problem is they don't kill *each other* (which would be a form of multiculturalism even I could applaud); they kill those who disagree with them, such as teachers trying to enlighten their pupils. I care about what they do to their victims.

It seems Muslims only believe in multiculturalism and religious freedom where they are in a minority. When in a majority, if your culture isn't theirs, they'll string you up on a crane, lop off your head, or stone you to death.

I feel sure the motivation for this is fear. We humans are tiny, insignificant, and mortal – just specks of matter on a speck of matter, lost and quite unimportant in the vastness of the Universe. For such creatures, religious delusions are very comforting (a powerful Imaginary Friend, an afterlife in Paradise, etc.). How awful it must be to have such comfort and then lose it!

And for the mullahs, how awful to have such power over the proles and then lose it!

That risk is ever present. Every believer knows deep down that his faith is irrational and a cheat. I have asked Muslims how they know Allah exists. The answers have been unbelievably flimsy – my favourite is that the verses of the Koran, in Arabic, are so beautiful that no human poet could have written them. More than 1,000 million people adopt a creed and base a whole life on premisses no stronger than that.

Truly, this is building upon sand! Hence, I think, the urge to silence those who would dig the sand away and topple the whole edifice. If ostracism and laws against blasphemy don't always shut them up, murder certainly does.

That would be proper grammar then, Richard!

F***s sake , wouldn't like to misplace my Bic razsor out there.
another crowd of bampotts to keep as far away as possible form uk.
Armed patrols at dover and heathrow, i say.
If u don't have the correct papers...BANG..GONER.

Media 1 #22 - by your own reply you prove how blinkered you are. "I chose to turn my back on them" you say, well all that will happen then is that you will be stabbed in the back rather than the front.

You simply cannot ignore this and expect it to be contained in their own countries. They are here now and in increasing numbers and sadly through government weekness being allowed to dominate our political and legal ways.

If you do not open your eyes and face the danger you will be swamped.

I repeat my comment therefore that your view is blinkered.

I never said we must not worry about those within our own societies. In fact that topic has not surfaced yet.

I am repsonding to the article which says they can kill school teachers.

So what if they kill their teachers,let them go for it. Its their sick culture not mine.

As far as their culture in our society, thats a different deabte.

Mr. Walker (No. 1). You clearly need some grammar lessons. Some spelling lessons would not hurt either.

Tut tut. See me after class.....

His French grammar is even worse – and what is that bit all about anyway?

so # 19. Mujahideen are not allowed to take young boys with no facial hair on to the battlefield or into their private quarters.... according to their teachings homosexuality is a major sin, or is this not the case when they are at 'war'?
Having experienced homophobic abuse at the hands of muslims in London, to my mind they are like all religions, cherry pick the good bits that suit their purpose.

#21 Bill -
Following 9/11 attacks, war in Afghanistan was unavoidable. We should ramp up our efforts there. The whole country was a training camp for international terrorists, and it would be a disaster for everyone, especially woman and children in Afghanistan, if this superstition led barbarity were to win. Islam is, like the other 'great' world superstitions, largely misogynistic and dependent on indoctrination of young children to perpetuate the myth.

31 Flash67

Following 9/11, it would have been a good idea to find out the full story, remove the causes, go after the people responsible, and make sure the terorist threat was reduced.

None of this was done, and as you say war was inevitable because of the USA kickass culture. There were training camps in Afghanistan, but most were in Pakistan or in inaccessible hill-country in fortifications built for them by the USA.

I agree it would be a disaster if Taliban were to win, but our present strategy is failing in that it is actually strengthening Taliban. We need to ramp up our efforts there, but not in the same way. UN with teeth springs to mind.

#26, it's already too late. there is far too many Muslims in GB already. they don't integrate and are making parts of britain into little Pakistans etc etc
(I see the same behaviour from lots of British in China too! but at least they only want to party and get rich (and be sanctomonious)).

You have let them take hold because of our so called society and fair play mentality (and the "make a lawyer rich culture"). This is soft and there to be abused!

Do you honestly see this government changing anything. I think it would take half a dozen british 911's for anything to happen - then what?

If imigration stopped tomorrow there would still be too many in the country, changing things to suit their ways. You can't send them back can you!

I think fair play, pc this and that, christian feelings has had it's day - time to take things back the old way.
People laugh at Geo. Bush but I could see him coming up with sufficiently strong measures if required.

Well done "The Scotsman" for instigating another piece of ill informed nonsense for us "caucasians" to gloat over.No doubt if they were paler they would be 'our brothers fighting the cause"! But I might just keep the moustache all the same!

#34 Bill -
UN with teeth - That's a contradiction in terms! Even NATO, a supposedly military based organisation can't get it right. Overall, we need to dig in for the long haul here, and continue to get tougher, but we need more help from the other NATO countries, as we can't do it all. The Taleban 'rules' lay out clearly how nasty they are prepared to get - obviously we cannot match their 'jihad' mentality and their willingness to stop at nothing, but we must at least be as determined as they are. This is the real frontline in the 'war on terror', just as important as a fair settlement to Israeli / Palestinian conflict. We MUST not lose here, or the Taleban mentality will spread like cancer. This cancer must be cut-out.

Hi Bigkev #35, fully agree that the PC government and society has a lot to answer for.

Only one small thing though, and I am not gettting at you, and that is that note all Muslim's are Pakistani, nor are they all terrorist fanatics.

Is it too late, possibly, but we need to make a start now on trying to putt things right if not we may as well cut our own throats and be done with it.

#36 -
Ill informed in what way? Perhaps you could tell us what the Taleban rule book really says, from your own sources?
Yes, there are some scary xenophobic comments here, but the gist of the article, about the perils of religious extremism seems realistic to me.

Sir/Madam:
#12.
To answer your question, I have to consult an Islamic scholar or at least one, who calls himself (I think there are no women Islamic scholars) an Islamic scholar!

You see: a kafir (non-believer) like me has to be very careful! There can be a fatwa on my head!
Regards,

40. I don't know what the treatment for a fatwa on your head is, but my dad recently had a small lump surgically removed. I hope that helps.

IanW #19 - Media1 is always bitter. It's just part of his nature. He does the same on the sports threads. Ignore him because he loves the attention

Your interpretation of the precise Sura wording and meaning is incorrect. Read it again, read it objectively, read it as would a scientist.

Sir/Madam:
#41
Remember Salman Rushdie?
Regards,

Putting the question of whether Afghanistan should have been invaded aside, the abrupt departure Bush made from Afghanistan in order to invade Iraq is responsible for this sad state of affairs. Not only are women not gaining freedom in Afghanistan, the women of Iraq(who had enjoyed such freedoms prior to the invasion), are losing their rights!

This, of course, is only one aspect of the horrors the Iraqi and Afghan peoples have to endured. It is one, however, that I find under represented in the American consciousness and the media.

44 Krishna:

I was joking! Ha ha haha

Great, I m stuck with discussing this issue with the mad hatter.

Any sane people out there willing to discuss the issues?

Typical radical Islam. Embrace ignorance and foster chaos. Once the international community gives up on a country (remember Somalia) they step in and install a brutal theocracy. How do you think Islam has spread so successfully? Pray five times a day or we'll cut your head off. Effective.

Sounds like they're having a problem with their religious Mujahideen bu****ing young boys and making a profit from jihad. How odd that such devout people could be such low-lifes.

Europe has been invaded. They tried through force once, but were repelled. Now they are doing it through immigration. Why are the churches empty and the mosques full? Given enough time Muslimes will attempt dominate Europe.

Bill #34,

totally agree.

Gosh,

I had no idea this site had so many Islamophobes.

Britainstan indeed !

Self fulfilling prophecy is more like it!

Just keep alienating Muslims in your communities!

That will really convince the moderates to reject the radicals!

Sir/Madam:
47, Echelon_10:
I was writing satire!!!!
Regards,

I spent several years working in the Sahara, and have visited around eight Middle Eastern countries, and have spent a lot of time in Libya and Egypt. I have met, and worked with, hundreds, if not thousands of Muslims. I can tell you that 99% of them are just like you and me. Fallable humans.

Like the Christians, most are only devout when in company, or at prayer time. Just like Christians...who carry on like atheists until Sunday morning at church. I have shared meals and cigarettes and coffee with Muslims during Ramadan (and I mean during the hours of daylight) and I have watched Christian women whoring around with Christian people who are married to other Christian people. This of course, on a Friday and Saturday night. The holiness only makes an appearance just before church. Hypocrisy runs deep in all religions, I have found.

I split a bacon sandwich with a Jew once, as well.

None of us are perfect. A little tolerance goes a long way.

Mind you, I have to say that I marched to their tune in their countries, and I observed their laws and customs. I would at least expect them to do the same in mine.

Blend in, or bugger off.

Rule no.19. If each Muslim man can have upto 4 wives and with half the Muslim population being women then maybe there are'nt enough eligible women left to marry ?

To compensate for the lack of eligible ladies when a young boy grows facial hair then are the Mujahideen allowed to take these young boys on to the battlefield or into their private quarters or anyone else with a beard as a sort of stress reliever ? The Taleban did'nt ban this from happening ?

Rule 21 takes a bit of understanding. Is it because of this rule that they use suicide bombers? They can't join Taliban if dead. Maybe this is a test, if they kill themselves, they are of no further use to the Taliban. If they don't kill themselves, justice will make martyrs of them. Not quite WIN - WIN.

37. Flash67

Nato is not getting it right because it is the wrong organisation. It represents defence of the North Atlantic, primarily the USA, and most European nations ar not interested in getting involved, in spite of their trety obligations.

UN with teeth would be a truly international force, and would include Moslem and Asian troops. Not easy to set up, but it is the only answer to this and other conflicts, unless you are truly committed to domination of the world by the USA.

Taliban is vile, agreed, but the current strategy is playing into their hands and making them stronger.

Colin #54,

Your comment started off so well.

Then, "the blend in or bugger off" statement you made sort of seemed out of place. If the Muslums are just like everyone else , why would you say this?

Are teachers are getting murdered in Great Britain?

What the hell has happened to this site??????

Cynthia #58,

I had more to say but was interrupted by the phone.

I meant the radicals. Everyone else seems to get along. The fundamentalists have no place here, stirring up hatred. My "blend in or bugger off" line was for them.

Colin,

Is it as bad as all that? I don't see it happening here. I'm wondering what evreyone is getting so worried about? What harm are they causing?

Cynthia,
Actually, the complicity in training the people who attacked the US combined with the Taliban's treatment of women seemed like a good enough reason to displace the Taliban. I wish that we had stuck with that mission instead of haring off to invade Iraq.
If we were going to extend the battle, the next logical target would have been a country that Bush would never have considered attacking. The Saudi ties to al Qaeda are huge, the teachings of the Wahabis barely indistinguishable from those of the Taliban and the funding of international terrorists by Saudis is manifest.
Instead, we have devastated our economy, our international standing, our military and our own political landscape, crushing a country that had nothing to do with our having been attacked and that posed no viable threat to us. In the process, we have eliminated one of the few governments in the Islamic world in which women were not treated as mere property.

Judging from most of the comments, it is evident that many of us are no less parochial than these Taliban guys. Some of our own mindless "taboos" are just as absurd as those of the Taliban...they are revered and observed for no discernible reason...their origins are murky and lost in a fog of fables...they are obeyed because thay always HAVE been obeyed.

I can recall a time when Roman Catholics were prohibited from eating meat on Fridays. Then, at some point in the 60s it was decided that eating meat on Fridays is not a big deal...and not enough to warrant exile to that 'lake of fire' they are forever threatening us with. Obviously, some taboos are still observed rigorously (among Talibans...and Baptists). The sanction against homosexuality continues to hold sway over vast numbers of 'religious' folks...for no GOOD reason, but only because "we've ALWAYS done it that way."

52 and 54- Please note I said radical Islam in 50. Moderate Muslims who realize that the Koran should be interpreted in the context of its historical era are not the problem.

Imagine if Jewish people used the old testament rules literally, as some Muslims do the Koran. Eye for an eye, marry your brothers widow, be banished if you have a white mole, don't live with women during their menstrual cycle (maybe they had something there), etc... There is worse stuff, but you get the idea.

The 7/7 bombers were from the UK. Radical madrasses and the infamous Finsbury Park mosque were involved in their "education", allegedly. John Reid just gave an interview last night that warns us of some 30 terror operations in the works. (We are no strangers to terror, having lived with the "Troubles" in NI for 30 years). So I deduce from that that "harm could be caused".

What do you imagine the radicals are doing down at the mosque every Friday? Putting the "fun" back into "fundamentalism"?

The only other group of people (apart from the bad Muslims) that demand "assimilation" through terror, are the anti smoker crowd. Nasty people.

I freely admit that much of my theory could have been subliminally implanted by the US/UK's insistence that we citizens remain in a perpetual State of Fear.

Geez Louise, doesn't this make you want to rush right out and convert to islam? Hallelujah!! I'm saved!!!

53 Krishna

That’s fine, I was writing s**t, thought that was the name of the game on this thread.

Cynthia: You stick with your love of Muslims and blissful ignorance of the threat we face. Myself and a growing number are not so naïve! Look at Holland, one of THE most liberal countries in the world (I recently lived there for 6 years) welcoming all faiths with open arms. Look at it now, they know they have a problem with Muslims and are trying to reverse the problems. Film maker gets murdered for potraying the FACTS of abuse of women in Islam. Yeah, good stuff.

I’ve also lived in the Middle East for 2 years. I got hauled off to jail once by police after being seen kissing my girlfriend for about 2 seconds. Really tolerant bunch! Yet I accepted that if I didn’t like their culture I should pi** off, it’s their country and they have their own ways…that I respect. In the UK, traditionally a Christian country we have our culture and ways. I do not accept/will not accept an islamification via the backdoor (just how many of them seem to like funnily enough…if you’re a young boy that it.)

Wake up Cynthia, these radicals want you to conform or die.

This latest news story should be filed under "Islam Means Peace"-- the acronym of which, of course, is IMP.

JHILL: if you really think that muslims and Baptists share some kind of religious equality, then you should be immediately committed to a state hospital for the insane. Puh-leez! This is exactly the kind of ignorant comment that makes me fear for our civilization.

Echelon-10: I lived in the Middle East also. It's so starkly godawful, you can't believe your eyes. You keep thinking: "I can't believe I'm seeing this. I can't believe this is real."

Sure made me awfully happy finally to get back to the good ole US of A. Actually when we landed in London I had all I could do to keep from kissing the ground when we landed. Long live western civilization!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cynthia, why don’t you go live in Afghanistan for a while. I could sort you out a free trip. I’d like to test your synergy and togetherness with the tabibas turds after that. Don’t forget though, you won’t have the luxury of using a PC to communicate with others on open debates like this…if you did you’d be stoned, raped or killed!

I’m all for love thy neighbour. When I lived in Oman I had many Arab friends and went into their homes and villages, very nice welcoming people…I’m not worried about them, it’s the extremists that I’m worried about.

62. Yes, but in the US and UK you won’t get your head cut off for doing something your Church elders disapprove of. Stop being so dense!

to #23 the Word:

>>>
It seems Muslims only believe in multiculturalism and religious freedom where they are in a minority. When in a majority, if your culture isn't theirs, they'll string you up on a crane, lop off your head, or stone you to death.
>>>>

Before the Christian take-over of the Iberian Penninsula, that area was ruled wisely by Muslims who lived quite happily with devotees of other faiths. Jews, Christians and Muslims lived peaceably together in a genuinely multi-cultural society, making Spain a beacon of civilization on an otherwise backward (and thoroughly 'Christianized') Europe.

It wasn't until the late 15th century, when Christian rulers had been installed, that things went haywire--expulsion of the Jews, the Courts of the Inquisition, a heavy-handed monarch who was styled "His Catholic Majesty".

so... you dont think we should care how they live?

great... so we dont care how they live... what they are taught...

I wasnt taught to hate people (hopefully neither were you)... not because of where they live, the color of their skin, nor whatever they choose to believe in...

these people are taught from their earliest education to hate.... hate jews, hate westerners, hate infidels, hate those who might teach views that may differ from theirs... can they be taught tollerance? well hopefully... otherwise who knows what to do with them...

we should care because without HOPE, these people are little more than cornered rats, they will commit incredible acts of desperation to get out of the HOPELESS situations they find themselves...

the publishers of this kind of intollerance have one goal in mind... keeping their "base" intact... via OPPRESSION... they utilize FEAR and wild promises to corrupt the minds of human beings...

they NEED to have a voice...

they NEED to dream...

they NEED to have hope...

they NEED freedom...

WE need to care....

Wow, it sounds like the Daily Mail produced in Lewis.

True Colin, all religions are full of hypocrites.

#68 Martha - Are you SURE the Baptists aren't as bad? ... http://www.landoverbaptist.org/
;->

Oh come on #5. "Boys as fair as virgin pearls - with or without facial hair?" And here was me looking forward to my allocation of 75 virgins and 40 camels - with or without facial hair. Think I will remain a Christian and take my chances with St. Peter and the Angel Gabriel.

#71 But our churches don't disapprove of anything now. They have all caved in to modern living, Meat on Fridays, Sex before marriage, Buggary in the Vestry, Ferries on Sundays.

#74 Calum - spot on... and a suggestion for a Yule present to help spread a bit of peace around the world.... http://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0...

JHill: they ruled so wisely that the Jewish sage Maimonides had to flee Spain or be killed by the rampaging Almohades-- the twelfth century version of the Taliban.

So much for your ersatz history. Go read something, whydoncha.

#75-- well...they're pretty tame here. Can't speak for the UK.

#74 People are hypocrites including atheists and agnostics. Please don't limit it to the religious.

>>>>
Martha / 4:08pm 11 Dec 2006 Echelon-10: I lived in the Middle East also. It's so starkly godawful, you can't believe your eyes. You keep thinking: "I can't believe I'm seeing this. I can't believe this is real."

Sure made me awfully happy finally to get back to the good ole US of A. Actually when we landed in London I had all I could do to keep from kissing the ground when we landed. Long live western civilization!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>>>

Hmmmmmm...I've always found Travel to be a wonderfully 'broadening' experience. What a shame that religio/cultural chauvinism precludes any such education.

The likes of the Taliban should be treated like Cancer, Aids and other disgusting diseases. They need to be eradicated. Pull out of Iraq and give the troops a change of scenery by sending them to Afghanistan after a well deserved CHRISTMAS break at home, then go in full tilt. Then, job done, CHRISTMAS 07, give the boys another wee break at home and then pop em back to Eraq, by which time there should be a few thousand less militia having blown one another to bits, and finish the job there. If there’s no progress within 6 months pull every single troop out and let them get on with destroying the country. I’m bloody sick of the idiots.

#72 JHill -
You've got that right. All those who think that Islam is the only religion to preach intolerance and hatred somewhere in it's sacred texts haven't read the Judeo / Christian bible very carefully. And as you said, the history of Christianity is littered with purges, persecutions and 'holy wars' . Sure, modern Christians pick and choose which parts of the bible's instructions to follow, as do some radical moslems, but this just goes to show that moral values come essentially from within, rather than from a god. Religion just gives the necessary 'justification' to carrying out that hatred.

82 JHILL: Get your quotes right mate, I never said that so don’t associate with me.

Nicely said, #84.

The old and the new testament read like the texas chainsaw massacre.

At least the koran left all their crap bits in. Pope Urban, or one of his fellow loonies, decided to leave out at least 60 chapters of the bible. I will consider reading it when they "undo all edits".

84 Flash

Hey numpty boy, why is it that people like you keep coming out with crap like that. Sure pretty much any religion can be found to have flaws, I don’t like any religious extremism, I don’t care what it is. But don’t try and draw a comparison between the likes of Jews and Christians in 2006, because they DO NOT cut peoples heads off for not towing the line or making films or working for oil companies.

Wake up!!!!

There is an alternative to Taliban Islam in Islam. Just as there is an alternative of my way or the highway in Christianity. All we can do is illustrate the alternative and pound the backward further backward. The more they get beaten the further from reality they will be and the more idiotically extreme If a vialble alternative is created then the logical choices will be made. But we need competant leaders for that so we may be stuck with extremists against extremists for a while. The missing part of the equation in Afganistan and Iraq was and continues to be the follow through. And from this bunch of duffers.

#62 Jhill
"I can recall a time when Roman Catholics were prohibited from eating meat on Fridays"

Reading such poorly-thought answers by liberal-minded useful idiots is always a surprise. Stupidity has indeed always been central in History, but listening to comparisons between the catholic no-meat-on-friday and the countless examples of barbaric murders under the name of Islam is appalling. The left always feels this urge (self-hate pathology?) to downplay the muslim atrocities by finding a supposedly equivalent atrocity to blame on the white-western-christian...

JHill-- yeah? well you obviously never went to the Middle East. It's a broadening experience all right, as well as a sickening one.

#61- Dan My point exactly

#64- Colin-fair enough - and the fear can be self fulfilling if we are not careful

#63- Chuckster- I see your point, but it seems we are getting a little hysterical

#66,#70 Echelon- I do not love Islam so much. Sorry your experience was bad for you. Apparently, it has affected your ability to be polite to those who disagree with you. I 'm no lover of Islam or any religion for that matter. To call me naive it a bit rich. Since, I'm not like chicken little here. You are.

#87 Echelon -
My point was that all the 'sacred' texts are as bad as one another and ALL these religions have had people behaving like the mad mullahs are currently doing - it's all a matter of timing. I suppose at least you did say '..in 2006..' - We should avoid jumping on religious high horses in case they turn around and bite you!
Yes -fundamentalist Islam is s**t, as is Zionism, and the right wing 'fundie' nutters who seem to hold the reigns of power behind the scenes in America (many of whom just CAN'T WAIT for the apocalypse!) The current batch of terrorist scum using Islam to justify their war, or their own misogynist, camel and young boy loving lifestyle are only the worst at the moment... see the history of the crusades and inquisitions for more info..

Its a shame the Republican Party doesn't adopt some of the strictures against pedophilia that the Taleban have, instead of covering up for it until, 'the boy is out of the bed', so to speak...perhaps Representative 'Barnyard' Frank should stand up in the House of Prostitution and call for a full investigation of these wicked boy-loving Republicans...

Echelon_10-- No they don't cut off heads for these offenses...they just kill indiscriminately...helter-skelter...I believe, is the phrase for this kind of slaughter that was popularized by Charles Manson and with which the 'Christians' and 'Jews' might be more comfortable.

The Taleban and the Afghanistanis should be left to their own devices. If Iraq and Palestine are the fruits of our 'good deed doing', then I don't blame anyone for fighting it tooth and nail.

#89 I agree with you, but Christian atrocities definitely occurred, and they were just as bad as fundamental Islam is today. Consider miles of road with anabaptists impaled on stakes every foot of the way, courtesy of the Catholic church.

The point is Christians have mended their ways while radical Islam has not.

Echelon_10: Agree with you about letting them kill each other off, since they seem hell-bent on doing it anyway. Better them than us, say I.

I frankly don't think the entire muslim world is worth one American life, and here we've sacrificed thousands trying to bring them peace and freedom. What a tragic waste, despite the best intentions.

Get out of that hell on earth, and stay out. Buy their damned oil while devoting ourselves to finding some other energy source. Once we find a cheap, reasonable new energy source, we can build a big fence around the Middle East and forget it while they slaughter each other like so many goats. And they'll be free to practice their savage, barbaric cult as much as they want, though I do feel sorry for the women and girl children to some extent. But since they sit back and accept their daily torture, they do have to accept some responsibility for their condition.

There's nothing you can do with people who refuse to learn anything and whose only answer to every problem is murder; and as for the muslim fundamentalists, the only way to deal with a rabid dog is to shoot it.

"Before the Christian take-over of the Iberian Penninsula, that area was ruled wisely by Muslims who lived quite happily with devotees of other faiths. Jews, Christians and Muslims lived peaceably together in a genuinely multi-cultural society, making Spain a beacon of civilization on an otherwise backward (and thoroughly 'Christianized') Europe."

Ridiculous hoax...
Recent research has torn down this rosy fairy tale. Spain happily escaped to cultural and genocidal obliteration because muslims never were a majority there. Read this page :
http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm?frm=4205&...

#95 Martha
"..And they'll be free to practice their savage, barbaric cult as much as they want, though I do feel sorry for the women and girl children to some extent. But since they sit back and accept their daily torture, they do have to accept some responsibility for their condition."

You muppet - I suppose you would also say that any woman who gets raped is to blame for that as well. Why don't we just arm these women and children and see if they can overthrow their bully-boy Moslem masters for themselves, eh?

Chuckster: indeed, the history of man is drenched in blood, and religious zealotry has been responsible for far too much of the slaughter.

But at least the west finally recognized the error of its ways and set about changing them five hundred years ago. It took another two centuries, but finally resulted in the blessings of liberty and tolerance that we enjoy today.

The question now is: are our open societies subject to self-annihilation as we kow-tow to muslim demands? Here in the USA, in a country where church and state are separated by law, they are now demanding prayer rooms in airports. For (*&^ sake, can't they pray in a mosque, or pray quietly to themselves? They also want prayer rooms in gyms. No other religion makes these arrogant demands, nor does any other religion make such a point of NOT assimilating into new societies. And, they have closed off their nations to Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. in the name of religious "purity" that idiotic English crown prince finds so attractive and which he declares Christianity has "lost." What a first class moron he is, and how dangerously ignorant.

When a western politician or journalist speaks out against muslim tactics, he/she receives death threats at a minimum, and sometimes the result is actual murder as we all know. The muslim goal, overtly stated, is a world-wide caliphate and sha'aria law imposed on every single man, woman and child on earth.

This ought to be enough to alarm any intelligent westerner, but as we can see even on this forum, some of them remain badly deluded. It makes you wonder if they ever opened a history book or even bother to watch the evening news.

60. Cynthia

"Is it as bad as all that? I don't see it happening here. I'm wondering what evreyone is getting so worried about? What harm are they causing?"

We have serious problems in the UK regarding integration of Moslems. Arranged marriages, honour killings, veils worn in surveillance areas, blowing up buses and underground trains, that sort of thing.

cA lot of these problems have been caused by our beloved government and their politically correct garbage. A few examples; street signs in Urdu in Bradford, state school classes being taught in foreign languages, apartheid in Blackburn (I think) where coloured and white families are assigned separate areas in council housing, banning of Christian content in Christmas by government organisations.

Having said this, the overwhelming majority of immigrants are a credit to themselves and our country. Hard working, family and community centred, respectful of learning and elders, law abiding and peaceful, supportive of our way of life and keen to assimilate into our society, etc.

It is only the extremists who are causing the trouble, but our police are scared stiff of trying to control them because of the so-called racial equality laws which in fact make things worse.

I know that there are some bad places in the States, but you don't have the difficulties we have.

89 Insider. Spot On! Well said

72. You have obviously learnt your history from a
Muslim book. 'Before the Christian take-over of the
Iberian peninsula' is the most ignorant, biased
sentence in this entire page.

Flash67-- what I am saying is that it's impossible to feel completely sorry for people who participate in their own punishment. In my country (USA), muslim women drape themselves as if they were in Riyadh. They don't have to, but they do it, and some of them do it arrogantly. It's a political statement with them-- they don't care that it presages the persecution of half the human race if the muslims have their way.

They seem to believe that their bloodthirsty god cares more about what they wear on their heads than that they behave like civilized, tolerant human beings.

drat, just missed it!

#94 Chuckster,

You hit the nail on the head! So, we have to decide how best to support the Muslims who want or have mended their ways.

Echelon's way is to alienate them and increase the number of radicals that live n the west.

I think its important that Muslims integrate in our society, while keeping some of their customs(not abusive ones), but realize that our laws are not subject to change to accommodate their religious beliefs.

Just as I feel that the Fundamentalists is the US need to realize our laws should not be made to change to accomodate their religious beliefs.

Separation of Church and State is the answer. Not vitriol and spleen , Echelon.

By a good two minutes Bill......

#99 Bill in England-

Honor killings? Had no idea! I'm speechless.

Don' you agree that separation of church and state is the answer?

Politcal correctness is part of your laws???

I must admitt, I do find that a bit disturbing

#99 Bill -
Good comments. Religion and religious beliefs should NOT be protected under racism laws. Religion is a matter of choice, race is not. I find all religious belief ridiculous, but I wouldn't be able to stand up in public and denounce Islam the way I could slag off Communism or Capitalism. Why does this particular belief system (religion) get special treatment?

We should give all religions equal contempt, especially those who try to force their beliefs on everyone else.

Martha #105,

Where do yo live?

Cynthia: Read the article. You see any ability for the west to negotiate or reason with that kind of mentality? You’re a total idiot if you think so. I’m not directing my attacks on moderate Muslims, I’m attacking the extremists whose view is conform to our way or die. Read the bloody article. There is no hope of peace or reason with those maniacs.

107 Cynthia: You find what disturbing? You had no idea about honour killings in the UK? Hell, I thought you had everything under control and knew everthing! Exactly, honour killings in the UK! Wake up!

#102 Martha -
If these downtrodden women want to express themselves by wearing the veil, that is up to them. (maybe in this case, in a free country, some of them should take a stand) What they CAN'T expect is that they will be treated equally by a society who value face to face, equal sided conversations, or to be given the same job opportunities as everyone else. (eg teachers) where clear verbal and non-verbal communication is important. At least, here, in the 'free nations' they can make that choice. Not so in some parts of the moslem world.
(women not given the same religious rights as men, having to wear a black head covering for religious reasons- could be the catholic church?)

108 Flash67

Put simply, everybody has the right to do whatever they wish as long as it does not offend or incovenience others.

Seems like some people take that to mean that they can do as they like and everybody who disagrees is wrong!

Echelon,

I have read the article, and I do read the news from multiple sources. One only has so much time. hence my reason for coming to forums such as these. Still, this info has not made me turn into the vile, insulting person that you are. You could explain your position with being a jerk. But you are so over the top, you turn eople off. Keep howling at the moon. the rest of us will look for solutions.

#110,

In my experience these maniacs are in the distinct minority. They rule with fear, torture and terror. Compliance is sought with an AK47 jammed up yer nose. The vast majority are decent people, just struggling to get by like you and me.

I am an ex-soldier, but I am now a peace-lovin' guy, and yet, I would still round up the radicals, put 'em in a field, and bomb them.

They have no place in the modern world. They are using a text to live by that is so out of date (much like the Christians' good book as well) as to be ridiculous.

Its too easy to say pull out and leave them to it. Too many innocents get caught in the crossfire.

Blue on blue with a vengeance.

#107 Cynthia -
Seperation of church and state doesn't necessarily make a difference. The US has this and yet is one of the most religious nations in the western world. The UK has our head of state also as head of one of the churches but we are probably the most secular nation in Europe. I do agree, however that it would do some good in ending state funding of Muslim, Jewish, CoE, Catholic schools. If they want to spread their own brainwashing, let the brainwashed pay for it themselves, and leave the taxpayers out of it. Part of the reason for the radicalisation of Islam are the Madrases - religious schools. Let's not have our own Madrases here!

#112,

I agree with you totally. A very reasonable response by an obviously reasonable person.

#113 Bill -
No Bill, Freedom of speech is one thing, and the right to offend should be (generally) included in that.
Freedom of action is a completely different kettle of fish. I should be able to slag off Jesus or paint a funny picture of the prophet without fear of being beheaded!

All religons are just as bad as each other. they should all be banned. If that offends then sorry but I do not give a damn, all religon has caused throughout history is nothing but grief for on side or the other. Pc and all that bo****ks should be thrown back at the morons that spew that bo****ks as well. Our nature means that we can never live side by side with each other for one side or the other will find some thing to bitch about. We are on a one way ticket to oblivion. We will wipe ourselves off the face of the planet. Mankind is a pitiful joke.

Cynthia: Miami.

Cynthia: For your info, a NY judge dismissed a charge of wife-beating against a muslim man, whose argument was that it was in accord with his religion. Can you believe it?

#67 Flash

Bush and the Reublican congress increased funding and gave huge tax breaks to religious organizations almost as soon as he was elected. He has been pushing for more funding to religious schools and giving vouchers to parents who can't afford parochial schools.

That is my point. Muslims in the US are not anymore insistent than Christian fundamentalist on trying to legislate their religious beliefs. They are in my opinion just as much a threat to separation of church and state as the Muslims.

#117
ME? REASONABLE? You wanting to start a fight, you infidel? Outside now!!
;->

#121 Martha,

When did this happen? I never heard a word about it!

#108 Contempt. I swear some of you atheists think that you have it all figured out. Anyone with a view that differs from your own preconceived world-view is contemptuous. What scholars have debated for millenniums you figured out in your own short life. I'm not telling you what to believe understand, I'm just asking that you consider the idea that you don't hold all the answers.

118. Flash67

Sorry, I must disagree. Freedom of action is fine but along with the freedom goes a duty not to deliberately offend others. Same goes for freedom of speech.

Having said that, freedom imposes a duty to be tolerant of others who are expressing themselves. You do not have to tolerate people who are hurting you, and have the right of self defence coupled with the duty of proportional discriminate and humanitarian response (Where did I hear that before?).

#122 Cynthia

True -your founding fathers would be spinning in their graves if they could see what their dream of constitutional 'Freedom of Religion' has become in the US. How many in the US Government would have the guts to admit to being not religious?

Killing teachers and burning schools, how very civilised...I think I'll take up smoking and considering women to be the equal of men....well maybe not the smoking bit. If I shave does that mean I don't have fight infidels on the battlefield?
The taliban are truly nutters, maybe not all of the poppy trade is going abroad.

#123 Flash,

LOL, I'm a little rusty on the fightting skills. Perhaps when I get in better shape

#125 Chuckster -
I don't hold all the answers, no. But why, when any moral issue is raised in a debate, do we always hear from the gaurdians of the faiths? What gives THEM more of a right to pass judgement on moral issues than any of us? Religious people pick and choose their own morals, the same as we all do. As I said, religion, among all beliefs, is given special status that it ill deserves.

#119 Monki speak for yourself please, kindly don't include mankind. I am not trying to offend, but I think you may need to see a mental health professional.

#127 Flash

Not a single one!

#130 Understand what I'm saying. I don't believe that holding to one faith or another gives one the right to judge others. In fact the book says "Judge not lest..." I'm saying that when a person makes a blanket statement that all religions are contemptible and, by association the billions of people of faith. It sounds a bit arrogant.

#131 Chuckster,

There are a growing number of people who blame religion in general. Its easy to see why. But the ones who hold the keys to power would use another form of controlling the masses if religion were banned. We even have modern day examples of this.

#131
Who needs to see a mental health professional more - Monki for stating that religion has caused much grief in the world? Or those that believe that the whole universe was created by a big, human looking being, who can see inside the minds of all of us, and who was also his own son, and who was born from a woman who has never had sex, who raises people from the dead and can change water into wine?
The title of one of the best-selling books of the moment has got it right - The God Delusion points out what delusive behaviour is - and religious belief qualifies on every point.

#132 Look up Bernie Sanders. I think he is the only one though.

#130 Flash

There are a growing number of humanist who saying exactly what you are putting forth.

True is no one group has a monopoly on ethics or morals.

I think what offends most Atheist is that some believers use a religious texts to advance their positions, where as humanist use empathy etc

#98 Martha--What? "...at least the west finally recognized the error of its ways and set about changing them five hundred years ago. It took another two centuries, but finally resulted in the blessings of liberty and tolerance that we enjoy today."

What was there in the building of the European empires, the Napoleonic wars, and the world wars that would lead you to think that "liberty and tolerance" were somehow 'discovered' and promoted along with margerine only in the western world? Because you repeat it over and over again? With its gulags, concentration camps, wars, taxation, usury, inquisitions, etc, things are far worse with regard to freedom and humanitarianism than we were...The gospel of progress, is the gospel of degeneration and decline with regard to liberty and tolerance.

#135 I was concerned about clinical depression not his religious views. Compared to most he is moderate.

"Our nature means that we can never live side by side with each other for one side or the other will find some thing to bitch about. We are on a one way ticket to oblivion. We will wipe ourselves off the face of the planet. Mankind is a pitiful joke."

If that's not depression I don't know what is.

#133 Chuckster -
I have contempt for religious belief systems, not those who have been deluded and brainwashed by them. Why do we choose to believe in the main religions rather than, for example, the Flying Spaghetti Monster - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
- both make about as much sense, and the FSM 'religion' doesn't make pronouncements about who lives, dies, gets stoned or beheaded...

#138 Chuckster - True (reminds me of Marvin the Paranoid / depressive android!)

#132

Bravo for him!

I distain hypocrites. But we ar talking about Politicians :)

#137 Cynthia -
True, but more than that, they abandon their religion derived ethics for their own when the religious ones become ridiculous like some of the ones in the Old Testament!

#134 They're already doing it. It's called fear mongering. 1st Nazis, next commies, the 80's and 90's were everything from killer bees to the Summer of the shark. Don't eat apples, eggs, or drink milk. Mad cow disease. The list goes on... Now the latest scare is Islam. The majority are represented by a hateful few, but this is not as widely covered in the media as terror attacks.

Anyway - night all - For more religious inspired fun visit http://www.landoverbaptist.org/

slainte

Martha #121,

If you come back, please provide the source for the case you described. Thanks.

Been nice, guys. Gotta go.

#142,

So very true! Ive been saying that as well!

#143 Chuck

Correct again! That's why we must stay calm :)

See ya

#139 I know all about the FSM. But do you know about the Invisible Pink Unicorn (May Her Holy Hooves Never Be Shod). It is common when discussing the Invisible Pink Unicorn to point out that because she is invisible, no one can prove she does not exist. How do you know she's pink? You have to take that by faith.

I'm Christian by the way, but I don't close my eyes to other views, nor do I attempt to convert others. They've heard the message before.

oops forgot the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_pink_unicorn

Calum #74 - surely you're not saying that there are no hypocrites among non-religious people? The message of the Christ (and others) is one which contains great wisdom - it's shame that few Christians really try to live it to the full (including me).

Me too ..#2..I do NOT smoke, but I Do like my booze. and as you .... an atheist. Are not ALL religions truly breathtaking in the depths of their reasoning? Whether it is Christians or Muslems.........their delusions know no bounds.

#105 Martha--Good to hear from you as well.

I'm glad, true to form, you spend your time worrying about the straw in your neighbor's pen rather than changing the stinking mess in your own...

With 'holy men' like Professor Alan Dershowitz calling for torture...Bush Administration officials justifying the torture of children, advisors opining that it is OK to crush children's testicles and vile dope heads who need a prescription to get a rise out of them--like Rush Limbaugh--opining that the torture, rape and murder at Abu Ghraib was nothing more than fraternity hijinks...I'm sure you and the rest of the holier-than-thou Neo-Scum vermin who have made their bed with Queen George, his randy Republican pederasts and 'military' prostitutes that support and service him are the very best exemplars that America's "Purina Cat Chow Way of Life"--civilization can put forth to the uncouth denizens of Afghanistan.

Those who ignore the lessons of History........

Civilization is now dealing with a static religion and a stultified culture in the form of the Islamic World.

The Imam's, Sheiks, Generals, and otherwise leaders are reverting to the Shia/Ismaili/Assassin methods that decimated their culture in the era of Omar Kayyam. By promoting the current form of Jihad they are diverting attention from shortcomings in their own society and attacking the West. It is the old Political dictum that the only thing that counts is power and maintaining it!

There are really only a limited number of ways to face this challange and little wonder that Teachers have become a target.

Starting with the least harmful and invasive, progressing to most drastic.

1 Develop coeducational schooling throughout the region, segment the Kurds, Shia and Sunni giving each a share of the Oil fields as their patrimony, defend the peaceful segments of Islam (such as they are), develop energy independance and accept the costs.

2 Create energy independance throughout the rest of the world, exit the Islamic region and leave them with worthless oil.

3 Remove all Western troops from the region, expell all Islamic Nationals from the Western world, embargo all weapons and technology, place Islam in total isolation.

4 Confiscate all funds outside the region, embargo all technology and weapons, expell all Islamic Nationals from the West, assassinate radical Imam's, Sheiks, etc, take the Oil anyway.

5 Confiscate all funds outside the region, expell all Islamic Nationals from the West, Nuke all major Islamic cities (you could warn them to leave or not depending on your preference for the Mongol solution [by the way, the only solution that has given us 700 years of relative peace]) and leave them eating the bread of their fathers as a goatherding nomadic relic.

The one thing that is certain is that the fire and drive of radicals to destroy or control is not

#153 Are you just trolling or do you really believe this?

153 Danepiper. Now you're talking. You can be sure we are alone on this forum.

Doesn't anybody think that there is a role for the UN in the world anymore?

Or are we just going to go around zapping people we don't like until there's nothing left?

#154
Those are indeed my opinions. Probably too much Gibbon, Toynbee, Diamond and the Secret History of the Mongols.

No racist here, human DNA says we are all Intrinsically the same, but the Cultures of the world developed do to different levels of environmental pressure and interaction with neighbors.

Change can be gentle over the long term or violent in the short. Not much in between.

Have some of you listened to yourselves lately.
Oh sorry,I forgot you ONLY listen to yourselves.

The wee frees on Lewis still believe that theatre and the guitar are instruments of the devil and that adulterers should be executed, preferably by stoning.

#157,

"Change can be gentle over the long term or violent in the short. Not much in between".

Can I ask, when were we, as a race, ever gentle?

Wahabism is the Saudi's gift to the world.

Wahhabis see their role as a movement to restore Islam from what they perceive to be innovations, superstitions, deviances, heresies and idolatries. There are many practices that they believe are contrary to Islam, such as:

* Listening to music or watching television

* Listening to radio

* Photographs or drawings of human beings or other living things which contain a soul

* Praying at tombs (praying at Mohammed's tomb, the prophet of Islam, is also considered "shirk (polytheism)")

* Invoking any prophet, Sufi saint, or angel in prayer, other than God alone (Wahhabis believe these practices are polytheistic in nature)

* Following or strictly adhering (taqlid) to one of the four madhabs of Islamic jurisprudence, "except for one who is under necessity and can not reach the Sunnah.[1]

* Celebrating annual feasts for the Mohammed or Sufi saints (see mawlid and urs)

* Wearing of charms, and believing in their healing power

* Innovation in matters of religion (e.g. new methods of worship) - Bid‘ah

158 Mentorscrotum

I tend not to self narrate my posts. I can type without moving my lips…can’t you?

#128 I guess you are right. Most of their poppy sure must not have been getting out of Afghanistan. They are all nuts!!!!

#160
Education and science leading to the founding of the Library at Alexandria,
1st Century spread of Christianity, Osmanli tolerance for Orthodox Christianity, Spread of Budhism. Notice it's dissemination or tolerance of BENEVOLENT proletarian religion and education not the secetarian power struggles that come later or the Fire and Sword of Jihad.

Things happen on different levels. The Renaissance flowered in an age of internecine warfare founding most of the European states.

#161

Exactly! The founder of Saudi Arabia was the leading Wahhabist of his day.

What have we missed here.......?

What'sall this waste of time about religion? The Taliban are FIGHTERS. That's not a religious rules code, it's a "police" rule books. Most Talibans are not cultured, they haven't studied Islam for decades trying to figure stuff out, actually I would be surprised if the majority of them can read or write. All they were ever thought is fighting, they're worriors, as you call them "barbarians", but if you look closer at their rules they're still honorable. This is the result of the fundamentlist training programed by Pakistan and the CIA to create a generation of fearless fighters, and it worked out excelently because the Taliban stopped the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. ( though not many people thought about what were the taliban going to do AFTER )

The "Islam" part of the situation is the control part, it's a very primtive thing, a fundamental built set of rules, they can easily understand and apply. Just like in medieval times.

Those people have no clue what "the Western Civilization" means. All they know about "the west" is the military violence, the colonialism wars, the divisions, the invasion of their lives and of their government structures. They only see the ugly violent side of the West (very very very ugly), so it's not a surprise they hate it ... just many people on the "other side" only see the violence in the Middle East, and of course that's why they hate it.

People don't understand that TV only shows the bad parts of life...

#164 Understand that it is these same types that are successfully swaying new US policy in Iraq. James Baker of the Baker/Hamilton report is in the pocket of Saudi Arabian oil tycoons. James Baker is part of the law firm Baker-Botts which is primary counsel for the Saudi royal family. They are also representing Saudi Arabia in the class action trillion dollar lawsuit brought by the families of 9/11 victims. These lawyers can make money any way they want, but I don't believe Baker is an impartial player.

#165
Well, you have some of it right anyway.

So the choice is ---- pay the piper and change the Culture ( education, et al)

or

Violently impact the Culture ---- Permanently!
Pax Romana

#167,

I've gotta ask....

Are you for education or eradication?

Violence or vitriol?

War or words?

Teaching or tactical nukes?

Softly softly, or smashee smashee?

Danepiper,

a solution would be to not encourge their prejudice, in this case: To NOT invade Afghanistan and bomb them. You have to remember these people don't fear death, whatever reasons they have, they don't fear it, so invading their lands and bombing them is only going to encourage the paranoia and extreme attitude.

I guarantee that any large bunch of people left alone, in peace, however violent they may be, in time they will become peaceful and reasonable, as long as they don't have any TV to show the brutal parts of life only feeding paranoia and blind hatred. Just like in USA, the chances of a farmer joining the army to fight a war half-way around the World are very small, the stupidity of such an activity would be obvious to most people. But having MEDIA which pumps fear and terror on one side and absurd "patriotism" on the other ... really inhibits rational thinking.

#168

My father was a Master Sergeant in a mortor unit that relieved Auschwitz. A fact that I was unaware of until one day as a High School Principal he substitued for our History teacher who was on sick leave. He proceded into his lecture on World History, the NAZI era, and began presenting Photos (not clippings or newspaper articles) and copies of his report documents that would roil any sane human's stomach. Genocide is a terrible waste of human potential and one of the most reprehensible acts we can commit.

That being said;

We are facing a culture as virulent and as violent as that of the Nazi's. Though many write that these people are uneducated cannon fodder, that is far from the truth. Many have Western University educations and can hack out Web pages with the best, most of the mass of Men can read and write enough to understand the Koran. The black robed Imams sitting on the leaders podium in Iran are an example of the Religious Oligarchs in the Islamic World who's dream is to turn the world to a fundamentalism that they would control and of which even Torquemanda would be proud.

This is not the Islam that sponsored Libraries in Valencia or furthered math, engineering and medicine. It is complete dictatorship of Life and Soul. It has become a static culture wracked with the same intestine squabling that existed in Byzantium just before the Turks changed the rules and put an end to the Orthadox Christian squabbling

I am certain that we in the West and in the Sinic world will have no choice. We will be forced to use a hammer as surgically as the use of that instrument implies. We can be either preemptive and as merciful as possible, or we can wait, and react to what ever damaging and violent surprise these enemies of peaceful civilization decide to throw our way. 911 was just the beginning.

Flash67, what century do you live in? Catholic women in the USA haven't worn anything on their heads in church since the 1960s, and it NEVER had to be a black veil-- at least, not in this country. Unless you were a nun, in which case, you had to wear a black veil. Also when you see the Pope. But most people don't bother with trying to get an audience with the Pope, because why would you want to anyway unless you were positively obsessed with religion?

I can't answer for other countries, but it was the custom for women in all churches to wear hats until just the last few decades here in the US. Then they abandoned the hats en masse. Except for black women, who wear wonderfully colorful hats to church every Sunday. But they don't have to. They just like to wear them.

BUT: on a flight to Tehran, as soon as the plane is over Iranian air space, all women MUST cover their heads. No choice in that. And an undraped woman is subject to attack in the street. See the difference?

Danepiper,
Your cold analysis with out regard for human life is truly frightening.

Dragamir,
I agree the media shows snapshots of life, but surely, you can't believe that to withdraw TV viewing will make peace in that region.

Barbaric, evil, medieval scum

Danepiper,

My remarks were directed to your post prior to #170

"I guarantee that any large bunch of people left alone, in peace, however violent they may be, in time they will become peaceful and reasonable, as long as they don't have any TV to show the brutal parts of life only feeding paranoia and blind hatred."

That's quite a guarantee, Dragomir. Considering the muzzies have been at it for 1400 years, how long do you expect to have to wait for this marvelous outbreak of peace among them?

Danepiper,

Now that I have read #170, I think it applies as well. you are advocating something so vile it is inconceivable

Martha,

Please tell where you heared of the case in NYand when it occured

"You have to remember these people don't fear death, whatever reasons they have, they don't fear it, so invading their lands and bombing them is only going to encourage the paranoia and extreme attitude."

Fearing or not fearing death doesn't make it any less effective. it only encourages them if it is just 'threatened'. The actual delivery does the job of stopping the undesired behavior.

personally, all in favor of having a single elimination tournement among all the religions out there. whichever is left standing is officially the one true one. then maybe this comes to an end.

Since it is impossible to predict when some Muslim male will elect to start killing others, follow the following instruction: Kill them all; God will sort them out.

Cynthia, all the people I know who stopped watching TV now live a better, saner, happier life. TV has its uses, but because it shows a mostly pessimistic view of life it's too dangerous. Imagine people watching that 5-10-15 hours a day, the "window to the World". It's no wonder people become xenophobic with a World like that.

It's true that TV (and most media outlets) could become a strictly informative non-sensationalist means of communication, something more objective and useful, but that doesn't work well in the current financial system of the World. TV producers learned that by terrorizing people and then acting like "a guardian" they bring in a bigger audience (it's only natural to be concerned for your life, but don't go paranoid). Tabloid culture and sensational stuff is unreal, it doesn't represent our reality, but because there so much of it people start to confuse reality and "entertainment". So the question is: what can be stopped easier? - the system of financial interests which filter and manipulate MEDIA sources, or the TV-set itself?

Of course this "interest" system ruins Radio communication, it destroyed the PRESS a long time ago and now it's after the Internet and the killing of "net neutrality".

We can go back even further than that, before there was mass media people relied on travlers, stories, kings and religious leaders.. for information, and we know the bloody history of religions is almost the same all over, a great tool to manipulate the masses into slavery or war. Wars have always been fought for economic reasons, so it seems there only one basic solution. To teach people not to listen and obey selfish greedy people. Weather they're tribal leaders, religious leaders or presidents, people must learn to not trust selfish humans become they tend to lie or not be fully truthful (patriotism/nationalism has ALWAYS been an excuse for violence, discr

The Talban in Afghanistan are supported by Pakistan, Sauda Arabia, Iran and Syria.These criminals and killers can't survive with outside help. All these people understand is force. We need to kill these people before they kill us.They have the idea of ruling the world. We can't let this happen.

Everyone in the Free World needs to listen to Michael Savage and the Savage Nation. You can listen online at www.760kfmb.com. He is on at 3pm(US, California time) 7 days a week.

spider, wrong about 2 things. Iran and Syria. They don't like the taliban regime and were pretty happy when USA and UK invaded. Furthermore, Iran has been the victim of "Al Queda" terrorism.

Having so many Brits oppose the custom of terror is refreshing. Too bad that they didn't take up the cudgel when British forces were running concentration camps and butchering black Kenyans causing Duncan McPherson, head of Colonial CID to remark to Minister Barbara Castle, that the atrocities he witnessed in Kenya far surpassed anything he had witnessed in his five years as prisoner of the Japanese. Survivors of these atrocities are in London as we write laying out their claims for justice and compensation. Just thought I would interfere in this holier than thou discussion.

I did not think I would write a further comment on this website but decided that one more would be no less worse or better than the rest :0)

170 >DanePiper.............Back you all the way
171> Martha..................Likewise
172> Cynthia..........You dont need to get Martha to confirm the "Honour" Killing , I can give you one in England. A young woman was killed by her brother and her cousin. She managed to make it to the garden gate and attempted to cry for help. Unfortunately, her brother cut her throat, that is, after stabbing her and beating her up........Why? She wanted to get married and the strangest thing was that the man she wanted to marry was a Muslim.

I am aware of law abiding decent Muslims but am also aware of the vast amount of Muslims within britain that have no intention of integrating. I have also witnessed first hand a demonstration where I had to (by accident) listen to a fellow UK citizen shout "death to all infidels". Needless to say, I put as much distance between myself and the demo......I walked into a shop in Glasgow, the owner was unaware that I was in the shop and heard the following " Dirty Christian B..t..ds" He was watching "Songs of Praise". Why he was watching it in the first instance beats me.
As far as I am concerned there is a 5th column in this country and as much as I am for peace, I believe it is far to late. Its no use blaming Bush and Blair as that is not going to change the situation, anyway, 9/11 happened long before the Iraq fiasco. The radicals have a mentality of death and only they could believe that the holocaust did not happen. oops I forgot that Aussie actor.
At the end of the day, what differenced will it make if yon wee man in Iran pushes a button. The whole world is going haywire.
Nite nite to you all

UN with teeth, that is a good one. That is like wishing upon a star and believing that the moon is made out of green cheese. Anybody believing that is invited to one of our snipe hunts, you can have the honor of holding the bag.

#183- Sylvia,

Thanks for recounting your experience. it does sound frightening. I am sorry things have gotten this way in the UK,

But Martha is from the states and she said that a judge here through out a case of a Muslim man beating his wife because it was part of his religion in NY. Not honor killing. Thank God. I had not heard about this. i wanted to know so I could look up info and send to my congressman. Judges are not allowed to through out cases of assault for any reason.

Thanks

Sir/Madam:
177:
"Since it is impossible to predict when some Muslim male will elect to start killing others, follow the following instruction: Kill them all; God will sort them out."

Why are you forgetting women too? They can bomb equally well or even better with veils!

About the last part, I have a doubt: there will be shortage of virgins in heaven. Can we include boys to the list of virgins to make up for the shortfall?

By the by, you have not yet seen the real picture of Muslims followers of - religion of peace!
Regards,

The Taliban is ready to fight (we were talking about the Taliban) with strict rules for combat. Obviously the conversation drifted to a higher plane of moral weight, social values, nationalism, anti-nationalism, history and the possiblility of total war.

I say thank God for Ghengis Khan. If his realm didn't nearly decimate the Islamic world a thousand (or so) years ago, we might have been buried.

Why did the Great Khan smoke Islam? Not for the religion, since Mongolia was very culturally sensistive (the only empire at the time to hold debates between Isamists, Judaists, Christians and Buddists), but because Islam was arrogant. They can't live with neighbors in the long run. Thank God Genghis didn't want to engage Europe because we (we by blood) had mountains so that their horses couldn't graze. They did waste the Knights of the Teoutonic Order on the plains of Poland. Lucky us.

People, we are dealing with full fledged assailants. Sure, the "West" has it's drawbacks with capitalism gone wild (only at times), the funky media, weird personal idols of fame, and strange social morays. But let's be assured, that if Islam has a strangle hold in the "West", we would not be here talking. All of the Men here would be bearded, ruling absolutely our families (even with the right of death), paying tribute to religious deacons as cowards and being pathetic, mindless unproducers. Not cultivating anything except the hate of our rulers or the exaltation of their victories, with no future in sight. The women would be cows (think chattel) and bearers of guilt in a society such as this. They have no rights. They have no humanity.

I tell you as an American, a provider to my people, a fellow member of the World, that I will not let this ideology go unchallenged.

The United States of America will prevail in this difficult task. The people who look for excuses to submit to radical Islam are weak. Isalm will use you better than t

I think we need to look at the positive side of these rules. Really there are a lot of freedoms granted here. Sodomy and homosexuality explicitly condoned, alcohol and drug use implicitly tolerated, greed and lust for material things are taken for granted, a true hedonist's fantasy made real. On top of that, you get how many virgins forever for doing what? Wow where do I sign up!

Rule 6 refers to a 'Taleban fighter', but other rules refer to a Mujahid (or the plural).

What is the difference between a Mujahid and a 'Taleban fighter' ?

Can anyone explain ?

All the comments here about 'Christianity has got over the barbaric period' are true. The thing is that 1400 yrs in, both Religions had some of their adherents advocating and using extreme violence - the spanish inquisition was taking place, as well as huge amounts of internicine warfare. Same as Islamists at the moment. I don't think that there is something inherently more 'wrong' with Islam than with Christianity. That said, it IS an uneven war, western nations have a lot more firepower but some scruples over how to use it, whereas those radical islamists / terrorists have absolutely no boundaries, but limited access to weapons. The big debate - and worry - is not IF they will get and use these weapons, but WHEN.
I agree with Danpiper #153, we either have to go completely softly softly, invest in these countries, hold out the hand of friendship, make huge efforts to help to solve the Palestinian / Israeli war and reject bigotry ... OR ..... start the third world war on the nations who radicalise, harbour and train these people, as well as expelling every Moslem from the west.

It should be obvious to anyone with more than a pea brain that only the first holds out any hope in the long term. The whole point of 9/11, 7/7 etc is just to get the kind of reaction we are seeing from many here - an increasing hatred of Moslems and more and more recruits for their global jihad and worldwide Islamic state. More comments like Tom #190, the more terrorists.
Yes, come down hard on those convicted, and those preaching hate - but lets show we are better than them, rather than trying to match them.

191. the Mujahadin (or whatever the spelling is) are the "holy worriors", they're the elite fighters and the ones who go "boom". The Taliban are more like a party, they're mediocre fighters, unskilled and uncultured, but fearless - they are a "militia".

192. Flash67

Thanks for your posting - the best I've seen for a while.
I'm completely in agreement with you.

Save it and post it again, when there is a better audience. We need to educate our cousins.

Cynthia: I'm sorry, I can't tell you exactly when the legal case was tried, but it did occur in NY City and was in the newspapers several years ago. My recommendation was that the judge be fired from his job on the grounds of terminal stupidity.

There have also been a few cases of clitorectomy that have resulted in the severely injured child being taken to the emergency rooms where the outrage is discovered by physicians. It seems to me that some father was charged with child abuse by the police either here or in Canada in such a case, not too long ago, but again, I didn't make a record of it.

Still, if you search on "clitorectomy in the USA" you might find some information; also "condition of muslim women in America." Why any woman in her right mind would put up with that kind of treatment is beyond me, but they do, even here where they can't be killed or maimed if they defy their husbands-- in other words, the husband, son or brother would be held accountable and imprisoned for a very long time.

192: Christ NEVER advocated killing your enemies. Instead, He instructed us to love them. There are fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam, and the two are NOT morally equivalent. You are dead wrong in your assertion there.

Secondly, Christianity is older than Islam by over 600 years.

Your political position is typical of uninformed liberals, but political positions are NOT facts. Fact: Mohammed instructed his followers to "kill the infidels wherever you find them."

Now can you see the difference?

Dragomir:
You keep on living in your little ideological fantasy land, you’re beyond the point of any realistic awareness of what is happening in the world.

DanePiper:
We’re on the same page. Keep it up!

Cynthia:
Suggest you and Dragomir get together in your land of peaceful fantasy.

Sir/Madam:
Echelon_10:
After reading your experiences in ME and other posts, I have to say sorry!

We are all in the same boat!
Regards,

forgive my spelling and grammer first of all, im in a hurry.

Im a Christian who is NOT interested in IMPOSING my belief on you athiests, or other religions. There are compelling reasons for my belief which I wont bore you with either.

I would like to comment on the issue of "Ignore Islamic Fascism, or Confront it".

I see 3 generic courses that could be taken.

1. Ignore and allow immigration from the East.
2. Ignore and strickly purge the Eastern influence.
3. Engage the East in the East.

1. I think their influence will EVENTUALY become dominate in your/our culture and you will submit to their will. ( I think France may become the first Islamic super power ).

2. They will EVENTUALLY convert neighboring cultures, secure nuclear weapons and impose their will on us.

3. MABY we could empower and support the more moderate thinking ( more enlightened? ) muslims an defeat the "nut job" jehadist idea. There are peaceful muslim societies on Earth.

196 Martha

I think you have misunderstood Flash67. Christianity and Islam are both valid religions, and the underlying beliefs are very similar. I recommend you read the Koran; I keep one beside my Bible.

The point is that as we have gone through Christian development over the last two millennia, a lot of people strayed away from Christ's message (some still are doing - no names) and terrible things were done in His name. The same applies to Islam and Mohammed now; the religion is being badly abused and many people are suffering as a result.

gotcha!

196 Martha

You are right, Jesus did preach tolerance and love - the problem is that most Christians' Holy book is not the New Testament - it is the bible as a whole, and as a whole, this is not a tolerant book, OR a tolerant God - Jesus claimed to be the God of the Old Testament. To be a true Christian in the sense of following the man's teachings properly, you have to ignore the first half of the bible.

As far as I remember, Moslems are only allowed to kill when attacked first -
2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers

[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors

As I said - you can pick and choose your quotes - 'An eye for an eye' seems to be the biblical equivalent of the Koran quotes. There is more in common between the 2 religions tha you think, including Job - the poor, god-fearing soul that the sadistic Christian god had a bet with satan over - - - a loving father?????

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_%28Biblical_figure%29

And yes, I did know that Islam postdates Christianity by 600 years, that was one of my points in post 192 - that islam is now 1400 yrs old, and, for many, at the same shameful point Christianity was when IT was 1400 yrs old.

#200 and 202 Why are you people apologists for fanatics that want to see you dead and burned?

Bill this is the book you equate with the Bible. Flash67 here are a few more quotes you didn't include.

1. (Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

2. (Koran 2:216) "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

3. (Koran 69:30-) "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land.

4. (Koran 5: 33-34) "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is forgiving, merciful."

5. (Koran 76: 4) "Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers chains, yokes and a blazing fire."

Quote 4 "corruption in the land" covers quite a bit of ground. Lots of reasons for war there Flash, so we don't have to start the fight.

I like how people here say all religions are bad and need to be banned or how islam and Christianity are comparable.
The biggest oppressers, murderers, tyrants were not religious. Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, to name a few. Communism, socialism, fascism have been the biggest killers and stiflers of liberty than any other group combined.
To compare Christianity to islam is insane. While hypocrisy may abound in any religion, it seems that the closer individuals follow the teachings of Christ, the better for everyone. The Christian message of peace on earth, goodwill towards man is a good one. But, when you read the koran, esp. the suras, there is a huge problem. No such thing as goodwill towards man is anywhere to be found. Intolerance and hate towards anyone other than muslim is preached. And, someone show me where Christians are blowing themselves in the name of Jesus, hacking off non Christian heads in the name of Jesus, indoctrinating children that non Christians are apes and pigs......IF Christians began to do such things in the name of Jesus, the whole world of Christians would rise up and slap them down. You do not see any such rebuke in the muslim community - except for one or two muslims who have to go into hiding for fear of their lives.

#202 All I can say is that you missed the point the Book of Job by a mile. It's forgivable since you have probably had no instruction in religion.

#204 Your contention that religion is not responsible for the greatest number of deaths is not correct. Approximately 809,215,732 have died in the name of faith.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatz.htm#RelCon

This guy added it up.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=501208

This little list is just a taste:
* Muslim martyrs: 80M
* Christian martyrs: 70M
o 20th Century: 45.4M
o At the hands of...
+ Atheists: 31,689,000
+ Muslims 9,121,000
+ Ethnoreligionists: 7,469,000
+ Christians: 5,538,000
+ Quasi-religionists 2,712,000
+ Mahayana Buddhists: 1,651,000
+ Hindus: 676,000
+ Zoroastrians: 384,000
* Hindu martyrs: 20M
* Buddhist martyrs: 10M
* Jewish: 9M
* Ethnoreligious: 6M
* Sikh: 2M
* Baha'i: 1M
* Other religious martyrs: 5M
source World Christian Encyclopedia (2001)

203. Chuckster

I'm not an apologist for Islam. I recognise it as a valid religion along with Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc.

As a Christian, I try to turn the other cheek but sometimes you have to fight for what is just.

I do not equate the Koran with the Bible. However, since you quote out of the Koran, you should know that you can find similarly bloodcurdling passages in the Bible.

Funny how these threads tend to stray.

Sure many have died because of there faith.

pigpaw@204s' basic point has not been invalidated by that post.

His point is, recently, who has gerenally been killing others because of there beliefs? The Pope? Billy Graham?

Most of us agree that the various faiths have, at one time or another, been politicized. Hijacked if you will.

#207 ...the underlying beliefs are very similar.

Christians base their beliefs on The New Testament. You will not find any bloodcurdling phrases coming from Christ, or his disciples. We study the Old Testament and use it for edification and enlightenment. We don't use it to validate wars, murder, bigamy, pedophilia, amputations, or stoning.

I quoted from the Koran to dispute Flash67's contention that Muslims are required to be attacked first.

I included you as an apologist for Islam, but I don't see that in your postings, so I apologize.

Martha, I swear! Of course, a Catholic woman does not HAVE to wear anything on her head - but it is polite to wear something to cover your hair, and not go into church with bare arms, either. It's POLITE!
And about Baptists and their ideas - my son is a Baptist. His friends from church come to my house all the time to bring me little pamphlets about "How even Catholics can go to heaven!" Now isn't that nice - and so tolerant, too!

Here's an article from Asia Times about these Taliban and NATO:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HL13Df03.html

195, Martha,

Thank you for the information. I will do as you suggest.

echelon,

I got under your skin somehow?

Paul,

Which cousins are you speakig of?

213 Cynthia:

Under my skin? No need to be quite so flowery about it... I simply think you're an idiot and a naive one at that.

#214 Echelon,

Thanks. That explains your hostility. You are a cruel person and I don't care what you think. Idiot? I graduated University with honors.

Naive? You don't know me dear fellow. That's quite an assumption. Instead of attacking , I ask for proof of people's assertions.

I think the word for that is open minded, not naive.

Good luck in your personal life. I'm sure you are a pleasure to be around!

Human life is valuable, and innocent deaths are horrible. And this does affect a lot of people who don't live in that part of the world. I have friends over there now.. and I wish them safety. I don't wish barbarians to kill each other, but I hope people can open their eyes and stop the terror. I am lucky to live where I do, I am lucky to be able to serve my country, which stands for freedom... and we will not let terrorists win. The terror will stop.