enhanced by
Bookmark:
This guy's story suggests he is a gainer, bounder, and bad apple. He seems the sort who would have sold a gun to an IRA man out to nail the Scotsman's editor-in-chief, if solicited. If he is infected it is likely because of some involvement with the L. poisoning. He might not be but victim of anything other than his greed and lack of moral compass...or so I surmise from his history.If the university won't comment...
Intersting post: http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2006/11/19/20439/209
Fascinating and getting more so by the minute...Who needs a James Bond movie with all this intrigue...I predict that this story will develop until the real Mr. Putin is revealed for the sinister person that he is.His reaction will not be pleasant.
I can think of other things happening in Scotland more deserving to get to the front page than conspiracies involving defecting spies, bent arms dealers & the like, with, at least it looks for now, no Scottish connection.
I don't think the IRA would ever have knocked off a Scotsman editor in chief .. but the legal profession has occasionally tried it .. and even managed to change newspaper policy too :)
CF Peter Cherbi Can I add the Scottish legal profession exert pressure on our newspapers where it hurts -they use their advertising spend to exert influence on editorial .The form this takes is not that papers lie but simply dont run stories particularly about serious complaints againts law firms unless these reach a court of law. The Law Society has also threatened and lied to and about journalists on a personal basis.
#6 Iain ... I'm certainly with you on that one. Recently the Law Society actually threatened a journalists career at another major Scottish newspaper, & the NUJ had to step in with defences to clear the matter up. All over something I & a 'fellow victim of the legal profession' was involved in at the Justice 2 Committee inquiry into the LPLA Bill.
Pretty sad, considering the legal profession claims to be upholding democracy but they can't stand open debate and that's why they use their advertising muscle to pin down the papers (an ed. told me this face to face, so one must take it as being true)
As for admitting the russians who creamed off the best of the old soviet union companies in the Yeltsin era .. we certainly did wrong there, but no doubt the Government of the day felt it was 'advantageous' to have them here as levers against activities within Russia.
As far as this poisioning scandal is concerned .. its looking more to me like a dodgy attempt to smear Putin & throw a hand in the 2008 Kremlin elections - or something else we aren't seeing yet ... but it's certainly not as straightforward as one critic of Putin being poisoned because of allegations relating to the FSB - that's just too simple for this mushrooming scandal ...
Yes, Putin is a piece of old KGB work, but he is likely being set up by the deposed Russsian capitalist boss in London who probably paid someone to do this work to make it look like the work of the cold eyed Putin. Putin is probably fairly good for Russia, which is, after all, the job of a chief of state. Given the guy he replaced, another wealth maker who was rarely together because of alcohol, this Putin is a reaonable transitional figure. Let's be honest: Blair creates wealth for himself and his and his wife's cronies, Bush for his cabal of sobs. Putin is just another guy playing billiards and knowing how to make the bank shots. Pigs is Pigs. Poison is probably not a necessity, though I do suspect his hand...or those of allies who wanted to please him...in the journalist's demise.
All very murky.
Colombians, Forza Italia, Berlusconi, FSB/KGB, CIA... gun running, drugs trade, hit lists... numereous potential sources for the murderer(s). All the hysteria about the FSB connection in the press seems premature, even misdirected. Nobody seems to have mentioned the "M" word and its possible role in all of this.
"There are lots of things that just don't add up."
And some.
Once again we see no actual figures just "less" & "significant" quantity (the Scotsman recognises this by putting in quotation marks). Giving figures would allow physicists to make educated guesses of whether radioactivity moved by touch or was spilled by somebody carrying it.
This latest case means that the 2 people meeting at the sushi bar were poisoned. The perpetrator was therefore the one or the other or whoever prepeared food at the bar, or a joint action such as opening a vial to look at it. Assuming it wasn't the chef who dunnit this points to some sort of conspiracy involving Lit & almost certainly directed against the Russians rather than vice versa.
I suspect that if this much effort had been put into solving the Milosevic murder the perpetrators would be facing well earned justice. I suspect every senior NATO politician privately agees.
Scaramella=Scaramanga!!
That's it, this is a Wellesian type hoax - remember the War of the Worlds radio broadcast of 1938. People will believe anything if it's fed to them in a plausible way!! It's all a load of bullsh*t!
It also keeps the debaucle of Iraq and Afghanistan off the front page!
AJ, very true!!
Just to ad extra flavor to the discussion, according to Daily Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006...
'Akhmed Zakayev, the leading Chechen dissident who lived next door to Mr Litvinenko, said: "He was read to from the Koran the day before he died and had told his wife and family that he wanted to be buried in accordance with Muslim tradition." '
May I just name Mr.Zakayev - a head of Chechen jihadists in UK - it describes him better, in my view. I must stress, please, do not mix faithful followers of Islam with terrorists. Killers have no religious belonging.
A Russian Monster
You see, if he is burned, there is no chance for second independent investigation if needed, no exhumation.
#12 Andrei .. interesting indeed...
I seem to hear the word "Londonistan" on this one .. maybe the americans are right on that point ...
AJ the only issue I have with your post is the use of the work "plausible".What do you think is behind all this - a 'dirty advertising' campaign by Aeroflot? Or the Rt. Hon. Antonio Scaramanga and his sidekick Dubya Munnie?
DannyL, you are right, the way they feed information is not plausible.
Danny L,
The tosh that is being reported is meant to be plausible to the masses!
It's indeed tragic the Russian died, but you feel a few arms and legs are being added to cloud the whole story. BBC Scotland news have just reported that the italian has NO radio active poison in his body. All this guff must be eminating from somewhere!!
As I said, it keeps the real international news off the front page!!
Who is paying for his stay in a NHS hospital ?
Neil, you have been looking for actual figures (radiation, etc)…
The Sun reportshttp://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006551066,00.html
'…it was revealed Litvinenko’s wife Marina, 44, also tested positive for the radioactive substance — on her slippers.'
This situation has escalated to the point where we are intellectually impelled to conclude that the U.S. is behind it all.
#20Why?
Thanks Andrei but the wife's age wasn't quite the figure i was looking for.
It is embarassing that a foreigner sees the ridiculous way our press insist on giving the age (or sometimes an age) for every woman they mention.
Dear Russian Friend #21:
Why not? First one blames, then one appeals for monetary remedy. Simple.
There is one avenue of investigation not suggested which could help point the finger at the source, and from there who knows where.Given that only about 100g of polonium are produced annually, and that which is sfae to release, can only come from a few linear accelerators then surely it is quite easy to ask these installations which have produced it withtin the past 4 months, what quantity, and can they account for it all. There may be attempts to cover it up from the source producer, but there must be experts who could work their way through that.
Born in the U.S.A. you are not making any sense
The above posts have all missed the obvious key to this fascinating story: writer John McGinty is just another pseudonym for John LeCarre. MacB
Oops- Stephen McGinty
Actually It's Stephen McGinty whats that an anagram of I can't be bothered
Prinzowhales
Thank your for being explicit. I have been hailed as naïve on one of these pages. Yet, I believe in simple human values, I trust we will cooperate, we will work together, we will remain friends, British and Russians.
Ran across this in Asia Timeshttp://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HL02Aa01.htmlwith this rather disturbing last paragraph.
"Beyond that, I have no idea. I was surprised that somebody was clever enough to look for polonium-210 during the investigation. If you were looking for alpha emitters, there is a diagnostic energy for polonium-210 no one would mistake. But the act of looking into that shows some insight into what might have been used, and I have no idea how they got that insight. Maybe they knew something about this person or the people he hung around with."
How would our police know that these people were likely to have Po210 produced only in government reactors?
This is smoke, the Russians are behind the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko.
Right or Wrong?
And where are we going with statements like this? Russians? Do you imply Berezovsky, Zakayev, Putin? How many nations have nuclear weapons?
Andrei #30
Try hard to take everything prinzowhales says with a pinch of salt. Did you notice his use of the phrase "jewish mafiosi?" Princeowhales is an outright anti-semite who tries to blame almost everything on jews and israel. If life was discovered on mars he would claim it was some kind of israeli conspiracy.
#30 Andrei--Russia and the English-speaking world have a history of friendship. Russia's friendship with the British came apart, I think, with the competition among the imperialists in south Asia and the declining importance of the northern trade between Britain and Russia.
It was a Russian fleet that was ordered to stand by the Federal Government during our War of Southern Succession to aid against possible English intervention as the French gained a crown and placed an army in Mexico. The friendly acquisition of "Seward's Folly"--Alaska--that was representative of the kind of peaceful relationship we were developing with Russia.
What still takes my breath away is the vast World War I conspiracy in America that led to a well-financed Trotsky with dozens of operatives who would play leading roles in the Bolshevik Party, being sent to knock our ally, Russia, out of the war.
The Russian, American and British people have too much in common to be pitted against each other by contemptible Mafiosi thieves like Berezovski and their loathsome accomplices in the media. We have bled and suffered too much in the past because of the intrigues of these creatures. It is time to not merely scotch one more of their plots but to hunt them down and hound them out of power and influence-- they serve no good purpose and their venality, mal- and mis- feasance...their malevalence, treachery and deceit, deserve either gaol or gallows...or any happy combination of the two.
We musn't let these creatures drive a wedge between us. B.B. should be sent back to Russia along with his ill-gotten gains. He is like any other thief that has betrayed his nation--like Mugabe, Marcos, Somoza, Pappa Doc--and ran away with their wealth to find shelter among the banker-controlled lands of the West. The only difference is that he sought to govern from the shadows, like the swine who pull the strings of Bush and Blair...and, amazingly, Putin--in a way, like JFK-
You can bet if Putin does seem to be implicated that this will be swept under the carpet and well hidden.
#34 Oliver F.--Did you notice the phrase "WASP-mafia Bushes"? Am I to be labeled 'anti-Aryan' or 'anti-goy' as well? If not, why not? Speak up or go back to fighting the gulls for fish heads round your dumpster of ideas.
#36 Who would hide it?--the interests that have already tarred and feathered him in the media? The Flying Squad member who all but accused members of the Russian government--carefully exonerating Putin while at the same time insinuating his involvment and/or responsibility....contemptible gumshoe...do you think this fellow would 'sweep it under the carpet?'
These rotters would undoubtedly accuse Putin of hand-carrying it from...say, Seversk...to the sushi bar if they thought they could find anyone to believe it...aside from Martha and Agent Sandy.
#34 Oliver,
Instead of getting into discussion about Jews and non-Jews, I give one example. A relative of mine is rather anti-semite, he believes many Russian problems are due to Jews. Well, he is not young and he has the only friend, a Russian Jew currently living in New York. Each New Year they talk for about an hour on the phone… I would not like Berezovsky should he be ten times pure Russian (I am not sure what it is from the genetic point of view).
While some protest that a legacy of friendship exists between the English speaking nations & the people of Russia, there is the ugly fact of the anti-Russian feelings & acts from 1917 till the collapse of the USSR.The USSR returned the demonizing & violence to the Anti-Communists during the Cold War. in spades.While I agree that this spy vs spy mess takes the focus off the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan, it isn't in the nature of the SCOTSMAN or any of the Main Stream Media to ignore a sensational episode of spies dying by mysterous ways. This is a sensational story in many ways.
Since it is now being reported that the P210 came from Russian Nuclear Facilities could Russia be sanctioned at any point in time? Is there any recourse for these actions? or does the world allow Russia to go around killing anyone that speaks out against them, be it reporters or former agents...
Are there any stories of anyone else looking into the allegedly setup bombings that Litvinenko was talking about?
What do the Russian people think about this whole mess?
FSB connection to this is totally absurde, especially now. I hope next time England will think twice before giving an exile, protection and citizenship to other countries criminals, terrorists and top wanted.
Prinzowhales #37
"Oliver F.--Did you notice the phrase "WASP-mafia Bushes"? Am I to be labeled 'anti-Aryan' or 'anti-goy' as well Oliver F.--Did you notice the phrase "WASP-mafia Bushes"? Am I to be labeled 'anti-Aryan' or 'anti-goy' as well?"
Yes I noticed it but as you rarely disguss the Bushes like that on these forums I didnt mention it. Besides, equating WASP's to aryanism is in my opinion feeble at best. I have, however, seen your numerous anti-semitic, anti-israeli, pro-palestinian terror groups remarks along with your typical "israel is to blame for everything" attitude. I will continue to criticise you where I think you are wrong and no doubt you will do the same with me. Such is debate *smiles*
#41 Tex
Yes, it is mess.
I can't tell about the Russian people on the whole. They are too busy with everyday life generally. Should you be interested in a Russian opinion, please surf comments starting from page 'Minister attacks Putin over 'murky murders' to the recent ones. Look for Andrei – A Russian Monster. Please, have some patience, you would hopefully find some answers and many questions.
Would you, please, clarify who exactly established that Po 210 came from Russian Nuclear Facilities?
In case someone did (I do not know the name at the moment), is it a proof of Russian government involvement? Just hypothetically, imagine, it comes from a different country. Would it faultlessly point at the government of that country?
#37 Oliver F.--I guess the anti-semitism of much of the WASP 'Club' scene is lost on you, as well as the nature of the 'Dixie Mafia', the Ku Klux Klan, etc. As far as the WASP mafia of the Bushies and their ilk not being tied intimately to the racist theorizing of the aryan-ists shows a lack of attention to their support for the eugenics movement in the States and its influence on the Nazi theorists--which the antecedants of Queen George and its sire--supported not only intellectually but financially.
You seem to fancy that "Israel" and "Jew" and "Zionist" are synonyms. I asure you that they are not! One can easily be anti-Zionist without being anti-Jewish or anti-semetic...One can likewise criticize Israel without without being anti-Zionist or anti-semetic.
If, every time I posted, I had to take the time to lambast the Bushies and their ilk, I'd have to blather on endlessly. On the topics of the Russian mafia, oligarchs, the neo-cons, the media and the Middle East, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone of Jewish extraction. Does this mean that all Jews are to blame?--Certainly not. Repulsive creatures like Berezovsky,the Neo-Cons and the Russian equivalents of Meyer Lansky colour my view of the Judaism that I know no more than the Gambinos, the Gottis and the Berlusconis colour my view of those of Italian extraction.
The men behind the regime in Tel Aviv are pretty much to blame for just about everything having to do with the current situation in the Middle East-- and they would not be taking that course if it were not in line with the strategic goals of their partners in crime in the current Washington-London-Tel Aviv Axis.
If you follow the work of Barry Chamish, you'll note that he has as little or less regard for the current regime in Tel Aviv as I do and lays at the door of these interests the assassination of Rabin, the door of the New World Order...leading to the abandonment of Osl
we're all being pre-ambled for germ and nuclear warfare..they break us in to the language first in order to get us to buy in the polarization/anxiety of things...war is money as far as your average leader is concerned..and how average they are....we let ourselves down a bagfull voting in the people that we do..is there one leader alive that actually puts the days peace at the top of his priority list?...no !
mary cigarettes
#46 Right as rain, Mary, right as rain. They scare us up a tree with a handful of polonium while they let loose depleted uranium by the tons and there is hardly a shrug in response.
Prinzowales (comment 29) is the one most on course, of course. Must be that university air in his part of the state. Prince of Darkness Perle of the Israel lobby and business investor in war machines...was nice to see his wicked name in print again, he having gone semi-underground in semi-disgrace, laughing all the way to the bank. Hope he stays on his meds. The lad did not look altogether safe for the street the last time seen in public. And to think that the "elite" institution on the Charles River emplyed this agent of a foreign power.
What!! I can't believe it. Nobody has blamed President Bush for the unfortunate poisoning....yet. Surely someone has managed to find a connection. My onetime fellow countryman you're disappointing me. My weekends wouldn't be the same without reading about how much you hate the US and our President and how you blame him for all of the problems in the world. Don't let me down, find the US connection it's got be there somewhere.
Nothing surprises me now about the people who are allowed into this country. For 40/50 years we had ex nazis living under assumed names and only being discovered when they were old men. I will never believe our government never knew. More likely they were protected, for one reason or another.
#49--CG--give #47-the PRINZ--a little time, he first blames the Jews & then Pres. Bush.
I blame the parents.
51--Agent Sandy...you poor, empty hat...perhaps you can provide a quote to back up your insinuation?
Prinzowhales #45
"The men behind the regime in Tel Aviv are pretty much to blame for just about everything having to do with the current situation in the Middle East"
And also "I support the Palestinians, because they are the ones whose lands have been stolen and who are being murdered and oppressed by the Israeli regime"
Yet again you show your true colours apart from one little omission. You say you support the palestinians but what you really mean, and have said on numerous other forums here on the scotsman, that you support Hamas and the other palestinian terrorist groups. Not to mention that paragon of virtue Hezbollah. As I have said numerous times to you; there are atrocities commited by both sides but you only condemn the israelis.
I rest my case prinzowhales.
Prinzowhales #53
"51--Agent Sandy...you poor, empty hat...perhaps you can provide a quote to back up your insinuation?"
Let me provide the quote;
"The men behind the regime in Tel Aviv are pretty much to blame for just about everything having to do with the current situation in the Middle East-- and they would not be taking that course if it were not in line with the strategic goals of their partners in crime in the current Washington-London-Tel Aviv Axis."
First the jews to blame for everything in middle east. Then washington ie bush then you add in london to the end.
You would be hilarious if you werent so tragically misguided.
#55--Oliver F--i tip my bonnet to you, m'dear.thanks
#52--Echelon_1--rational as always
55 Oliver F.--Once again you pretend that "Israel" is synonomous with "Jews". This is a low form of deceit and, as with anything low, you find Agent Sandy there, whether it is fetching out a peanut from Queen George's nether regions or cheering on errors of definition on numerous levels.
First, you conflate a criticism of "the men behind the regime" with all Jews. And, of course I blame Queen George and the camarilla around him for giving the current Israeli terror state-- the backing that emboldened it to abandon Oslo, continue its vicious course against Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza and to invade Lebanon.
Hamas has the support of the Palestinian people. Hezbollah has the support of the people of Lebanon and, though you may not know it, has contingents of Christians and Sunni among its supporters. Israel can find no such allies among its untermensch in Israel proper.
In case you missed it, it was the IDF's terrorists who, in the closing days of their invasion of Lebanon launched numerous attacks against civilian targets and infrastructure and left a deadly legacy of cluster bomblets for the civilians of Lebanon. This is wanton terrorism.
It was the terrorist state of Israel that has held hundreds of Lebanese civilians in captivity since the days of the first Israeli occupation and it was the terrorist IDF that killed the teenage shepard boy in Lebanon, bulldozed the poor American girl Rachael Corrie.
Hezballah was formed and gathered strength resisting the Israeli occupation of Labanon. The Israeli response to their fight for freedom?-- To surround Palestinian refugee camps full of women and children and light them up with flares while their Phalangist Lebanese allies raped, murdered and tortured their way through 2,000 men, women and children. Their response was to murder 20,000 people with a World War II style attack on Beirut.
Of course, Oliver F., you see the Irgun leaders w
Sandy, thanks, your support means a great deal.
#55 Oliver F-- Second, the moves by Israel against the Palestinians and Lebanon could not go forward without the support of the Americans. We have a history of ignoring and/or rewarding Israeli aggression and the New York hyper-Zionists--like Rabbi Kahane and his follower who murdered the Moslem worshippers in Jerusalem and whose grave is treated as a shrine by Zionist crackpots in the Holier-than-Thou Land--is a perfect example of the kind of explicit racism found in Washington/Tel Aviv circles that are supportive of the Israeli regime.
You may find my characterization of the actions of the Israeli terror state "hilarious", but I ceased to find their anti-human antics amusing in the least and I am certainly not proud of the abject obeissance of Queen George, Nazi Pelosi, or any other of Israel's gerbils in the American government as they fuel fascist domination of Palestine with the dollars of the American taxpayer.
This is neither anti-semitism nor anti-Americanism. It is a description of the sad state of affairs that exists today.
My "philo-semitism" or "anti-semitism" has no relevance within the context of what is happening in the Middle East today. Neither you, nor I, nor our opinions have any bearing on these events. The arguments against the Israeli terror state stand on their own merit, written large in the blood of innocent Arab women and children.
Given his history, I wonder how many people murky assassinations Mr Litvinenko was involved in.
Ever get the idea that nobody's innocent?
An enlightening exposure:Revealed: Litvinenko's Russian 'blackmail plot'See http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1962759,0...
You may like picture as well.
Why are we talking about Israel, Palestine, Jews, George Bush?
This is a story about an ex-KGB spy, with all the signs pointing to his being poisoned by fellow Russians.
Neil No. 31: For once I agree with you. The professor from Yale has very astutely surmised that the security services know a lot more about all of this than they are letting on. One would hope so!
Another factor that Turekian's statement alludes to is that the public release of information about Polonium 210 being the poison is designed to send a message to the perpetrators. It says "We know who you are and we are going to get you". Perhaps designed to flush out the culprits, panic potential informants, or at least alert the culprits' paymasters in order that they are disposed of discreetly.
As to who these people are, we need to consider only this: who stands to gain from getting rid of Litvinenko?
Another muddying of the waters occurred today with the release of more background information on Litvinenko and the news that the FBI are getting involved:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1962829,00....
What are we to make of the victim holding a Chechen sword and wearing a Black Watch bonnet??? Who is "Russian academic, Julia Svetlichnaja"?
This one will run and run it seems...
#65 If I recall anything about Russian academics in the US, particularly if they are held hostage to visa and residency regulations by fical State Department and Immigrationi flunkies, it is that many will do or say anything to stay on the 'right' side of the officials.
Why would this 'pro' be shopping his 'information' to these clowns right out in the open?
Gordon Prather at antiwar.com quotes ISRAEL INSIDE, which reports that Leonid Nevzlin, former CEO of Yukos, currently cooling his heels as chairman of the Diaspora Museum in Tel Aviv, that our busy Berezsovski associate was there a few weeks before his demise and pointed out that the Polonium 210 could as well come from Israel's uninspected reactors that have no IAEA safeguards...unlike Iran's program.
http://www.antiwar.com/prather/?articleid=10094
As the unhappy residents of the environs of Amsterdam will tell you, the Israelis intel/mafia arm of the New World Order beast have no qualms about shipping dangerous materials anywhere and exposing people to harm.
#66 Prinzowhales
I must admit your postings are very educational, in a good sense. Thanks.
#67 Andrei--You are welcome. You noted in your #39 post something that struck a chord with me. In my family in the past we have run the gamut from anti-semites to B'nai B'rith, from Freemasons to Catholics...and, interestingly, it is never the regular guys on the street or in the shops and businesses that they have a beef with...its always the elit-ny mafias running things that they dislike that run 'the other fellow's organization'. Even the anti-semites don't hate the Jews....they despise the Rothschilds and the system of international banking that is associated with them.
...Like, I would guess, your relative and his friend...the latter, perhaps fleeing from anti-semitic A-holes in Russia...your relative, hating semitic A-holes in Russia.
My father was a Mason, friends have masonic family ties...they and their Masonic friends were all stout fellows and Christians...yet, friends with Masonic associations steadfastly ignore the writings of Masons like Hall and Pike who admit that in the higher reaches of the brotherhood, it is a religion devoted to Lucifer.
It is an amazing commentary on the blind obeissance that men have towards authority...they can call anyone a "crazy conspiracy theorist" if they talk about the New World Order while ignoring David Rockefellar's own words in his Memoirs on page 405 that this is what he is working for and that he does not always act in the interest of the United States! And, ignore him thanking the heads of the media empires in the United States for not reporting on the activities of Dave and his fellow internationalists...'we could not have done this if people weren't kept in the dark'...Or, the words of Clinton's mentor at Georgetown University, Prof. Quigley, who he thanked in one of his innaugural addresses, whose book frankly admitted to the fact that the world is run by international bankers and that it was a good thing!
You can find the same kind of divergence between your everyday
I believe this is an international blind experiment held by those in higher education including of course all political and militery personel. To gauge the effects and to meassure porential fall outand to see if it can be traced. One thing for sure many doctors scientists and other researchers are all getting lots of free information at the cost of those who were brainwahsed into participate in this. Question is who masterminded this ? Yes I am crazy but have a great imagination.
Andrei #67
"#66 Prinzowhales"I must admit your postings are very educational, in a good sense. Thanks."
Yes the prinzowhales posts are very educational. Hes a prime example of an apologist for terrorist organisations all over the middle east. He says that hamas and hezbollah have the support of their respective peoples.
Well, in the case of hezbollah, they have support of iran and some lebanese people but not the majority. They are actually trying to bring down the democratic government in lebanon.
His argument that Hamas and Hezbollah can be turned against him. The present government of Israel is democratically elected also.
When it comes to the casualties in the summer in lebanon yes there were a lot of civilian casualties but a lot of the numbers quoted are misguided as hezbollah hid its weapons in peoples houses so that israel will have to bomb the houses. Hezbollah only cares about power and pleasing its iranian and syrian masters. A man in plain clothes carrying a gun shooting at the israelis is not a civilian. I will admit there were some israeli atrocities and I have condemned them. Prinzowhales still refuses to condemn palestinian terrorists.
He calls them "freedom fighters." Is a man/woman who blows herself up in a suicide bombing in israels bars/buses a freedom fighter? Prinzowhales would argue yes. I laugh at such stupidity. If they were freedom fighters they would target the soldiers or army posts and bases. They would stop hiding their weapons in houses etc etc
When will you criticise suicide bombers? Or do you think that israel hides its weapons in bars and buses?
To clarify my two questions in my last post, I should have made clear I want prinzowhales to answer those last two questions.
Prinzowhales #68 and Oliver #70
What can I say? Paradoxically, I agree with both of you on many issues.
I think there is plenty of ' sacred cows' resting everywhere. One has to be very careful…one word and you are an anti-semite, another one and you became bloody communist or fascist…So, one can't ignore these "animals" and express views with all possible precautions and, indeed, with full respect to people who are legitimately reject fascism and Stalin styled communism. It is not simple precaution, it is important as extreme views made a lot of harm in history. Still, one must to express his/her opinions, otherwise it is a sure way to the 'NIGHTMARE SCENARIO' as one of my opponents proclaimed on page Russia's ex-PM 'was poisoned too'.
Oliver, is Prinzowhales really an "apologist for terrorist organisations all over the middle east"? I am not sure. In my view, both of you may find some grounds for better understanding. I also condemn "freedom fighters" irrespectively of the country they operate in. I just can't understand why killers and terrorists, "freedom fighters" in Chechen republic as well as their patrons residing in London are described as "prominent Chechen dissidents" and "powerful Russian oligarchs" in British media?
#70 Oliver F.--I guess you missed the news casts where the IDF was firing artillery from the streets of Israeli settlements. Apologists and spokes-creatures for Israel have gone so far as to claim that the Lebanese were firing rockets from private homes. If you've ever seen one of the things fired you would know what would happen if the back blast was contained in a closed space.
Unfortunately, the Palestinians don't have the billions of dollars in arms and weapons that the US provides to Israel. If they did, they, like the Israelis, could kill families as they slept in their apartments, drove down the streets in the vans and cars, worked in their fields, sheltered their children from IDF snipers, sat in restaurants or went about their daily lives as best they could in the face of the occupation.
They have only their bodies to carry the weapon. It is the weapon of the poor, of those who have no hope in life. Notice that the suicide bombings did not come from the beginning of the occupation but later, after it became apparent that the US, the UN and the so-called 'civilized' world was going to sit idly by while Israel squeezed and squeezed and squeezed Palestine. So, yes, a man, a woman, a grandmother...they are fighting for freedom when they strike at the occupying power...just as the various resistance movement members in occupied Europe who struck at the Nazis occupation were freedom fighters.
I will start criticising not only the suicide bombers but any and all attacks against Israel when they withdraw from occupied Palestine and confine their settlements to the area of the partition assigned to them by the UN at the time of independence.
Why don't you ask the settlers who routinely kill Palestinians where they keep their guns? And, on your way to pray at the shrine of Baruch Goldstein who murdered the worshippers in mosque in Hebron, ask where he kept his!
Whether the bus is targeted from a weapons platform or by a pre-p
Oliver F.--The Israelis have planted colonies in occupied Palestine. Settlers and others routinely murder Palestinians. At indpendence, the Western armed and trained Israelis swept Israel of dozens of Palestinian towns and villages, the names of which have been removed from maps. Wells were poisoned, women and children massacred to create the terror that drove hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes that were taken and occupied by the Israelis...so that the lying troll, Golda Meir could say, 'a land without a people, for a people without a land'...to justify the theft of Palestine, and refuse the refugees the right to return to their lands and to confiscate them.
Your double standard is showing again...even the grave yards of the Palestinians were destroyed to leave no trace that they had ever existed...and you want to talk about a few bars and buses...tragic as all of the killing is, it is Israel that has been the master of terror in Palestine and it is Israel that is threatened by peace and the call for it to define its borders as all members of the UN do with that one exception.
#73 PrinzowhalesI was vague about points I agree with you. The means that Israel is currently using are racist and inhumane. There is a sad irony in it as Jews has suffered a lot from Nazi… I just hardly understand why not much is being said about millions of Poles, Russians, Ukranians, etc killed in a similar way during World War II.
Prinzowhales:
BRAVO!BRAVO!BRAVO!
Brilliant, BRILLIANT Posting! I just wish you and the astute mary cigarettes would get over to Richard Tomlinson's blog and take a look into the nightmare being acted out over there! WE NEED YOU:Blogger beta: Tomlinson v MI6 (it's back!)
someone ,anyone ....please TAKE the prinzowhales away . he is poisoning the air in NC . and just WHO is Jamil Hussein ?
#75 Andrei-- I think that since before the fall of the tsar and the time of Sidney Riley, the leadership of the Ashkenazi has been allied with the London financiers. The political face of this was hidden behind a mask of Marxist Leninism, much like the political face of Corporatism/Fascism is hidden behind the smiling face of Queen George and the 'Christian' 'Right'. (If you look at the number of 'Christians' who follow this creature and his neo-liberal/neo-conservative/New World Order program, you see a near parallel between the number of Jews who followed the atheistic philosophies of Marxist-Leninism and Zionism, many just mindless drones.)
The Communist secret police organs--their leadership composed predominantly of Ashkenazis--led the food stealing that led to the starvation and the outright massacre of many of the kulaks.
As the Germans advanced, they found jails and other places chok full of men and women who had been liquidated. Places like Katyn Woods where thousands of Polish officers had been murdered in the same way had long been blamed on the Nazis, but now it is known that it was the Communists who perpetrated this massacre. They wanted to decapitate the Polish nation and replace the elite with one sympathetic to them.
They have continued this strategy in places like Cambodia, where the educated were killed as the Communists tried to destroy the Cambodian culture.We see the same action in Iraq, with the murder of hundreds of professors and the emmigration of others out of fear. Here it is of note that the Bush invasion of Iraq was championed by the Iraqi Communist Party and has caused a split among American Communists...much of Bush's 'Coalition of the Swilling' comes from former East Bloc Commies.
If the controlled media in the West told the true story of the Eastern front and Eastern Europe and exactly who was doing what to whom, the support for these people would evaporate overnight. That would be a severe pr
#76 cuervobrillante--Thanks, I'll check that out... was Tomlinson the MI-6er who blew the whistle on some of the mischief with al Qaeda and the IRA?
#77 Fran--the air is fresh and crisp in North Carolina this morning...perhaps you just woke up with your knickers over your head again...
andrei #75
"The means that Israel is currently using are racist and inhumane."
I completely disagree with that statement BUT if we take it as true then the exact same thing can be said about the palestinians.
I say again to prinzowhales I condemn both sides atrocities. You will only condemn the palestinians if they carry on attacking israel once they get everything their own way. A peace will not be made with the palestinians till they are prepared to compromise along with israel. I point again to the example of the gaza strip. Israel withdrew from gaza strip.
Palestinians should have been happy to regain some land. What did they do? They started smuggling arms in and firing rockets into israel. Why should israel give palestinians even more land back if the palestinians will just use that extra land to carry out more attacks?
Back to andrei #72
""Oliver, is Prinzowhales really an "apologist for terrorist organisations all over the middle east" I am not sure"
You may not be sure andrei but i have been arguing with prinzowhales and the other terrorist apologist (dragomir) On these boards for quite some time. I have seen enough of their posts to realise that they are blinkered.
They see only one sides pain. Only sides wrongs. For them its perfectly ok for palestinian terrorists Hamas or for lebanese Hezbollah to carry out suicide bombings, to fire rockets into israel. I have the sense to realise there is wrong on both sides and have criticised israel when she does atrocious things. They refuse to see that terrorism is wrong, no matter what the cause. They condemn one sides killing but not the others.
The world needs to wake up to the threat posed by people like prinzowhales and dragomir. In britain there was a survey a few months back that said 1 in 4 muslims in britain felt the july 7th suicide bombings in London were justified. Now I dont know, or really care, whether dr
#80 Oliver
It is probably my fault but I am trying to see positive grains in various points of views. You may say one should be more selective.
'…terrorism is wrong, no matter what the cause…' You are absolutely right!!
In my view, the point others are trying to stress is that the scale of atrocities committed by conflicting sides is different. I appreciate that death of one innocent victim is awful enough… Still, should one appreciate the magnitude of human tragedies too?..
I see the best possible solution is to implement international law fully in accordance to UN resolutions.
And again, I agree, terrorism and suicide bombings can't be justified.
andrei #82
"It is probably my fault but I am trying to see positive grains in various points of views"
A very good thing to try. Sometimes its very hard though *laughs*
"In my view, the point others are trying to stress is that the scale of atrocities committed by conflicting sides is different"
Yes andrei, I am aware of this point and actually generally agree with it although I would dispute the casualties figures often posted as anyone calling a hamas terrorist or hezbollah terrorist a civilian is being asinine. I have on many occasions criticised israel.
I know far more palestinians have died than israelis but that still doesnt excuse palestinian actions either. I wish both sides would stop the violence. I wish hamas would recognise israels right to exist and then hamas and israel could negotiate a true peace.
I dont hold my breath though. Just as I wont hold my breath for dragomir to condemn hamas/hezbollah suicide bombings etc.
At camp david Arafat had a peace deal on the table giving in to a lot of palestinian conditions wanted except jerusalem and he wouldnt sign. He couldnt compromise. Why?
In my genuine belief he didnt want peace. If the palestinians actually negotiate peace then their leaders will have to deliver progress on other fronts and end their corruption.
And one final thought. I keep getting called a zionist just because I see both sides of the story. Just because I condemn palestinian and lebanese terrorism. Well I shall remind those people again that I condemn terrorism whereever it is and whoever is doing it, be it hezbollah, hamas, ETA, IRA/Loyalist Groups or any other groups elsewhere.I am not a zionist, I just dont follow the fashion to condemn israel as being the root of all evil and portray terrorists as whiter than white victims.
# 82
Oliver, it seems to me we would be able to talk out many problems should we sit together at some negotiation table. Well. As I understand it is not what we are doing for living.
Oliver # 82 'I kmow far more Palestinians have died than Israelis '
Actually the explanation to that is quiet simple. the anti- Israel gang have an unwillingness to comprehend that when they accused Israel of so-called massacres of Hamas terrorists and their evil supporters it's nothing but a pathetic fallacy since the Palestinians themselves have said they will fight to the death. therefore any massacre is self-inflicted.
How many people remember Sheikh Ahmed Yassin who was leader of the terror group HAMAS who was taken out about two years ago. his ideology was to destroy the State of Israel or die.well he got his wish.he died.
On his orders.hundreds of innocent Jewish men.women and children were murdered in cold blood. and killing still goes on today. by his predecessor. hence THE REVENGE BY ISRAEL.
When it comes to ideologies they are either good or evil. HAMAS is evil. thererfore if the Hamas terrorists and their supporters believed it would be an admission of their failure. if they don't succed in destroying ISRAEL therefore Israel has no option.but. to use it's military forces agains't Hamas terrorists and their supporters and their evil ideology of the wholesale slaughter of Jewish people.
As usually, different views: Dragomir at one pole. Oliver is trying to find a balanced solution and James England rushes into another extreme. Please, no offence to the authors of these postings, extremes meet. In my view, when they meet they start fighting. The bystanders, kids, women, innocent people are killed. Why them and what for? It is criminal wish to eliminate Israel. It is equally criminal desire to eliminate Palestinians. Is it someone's aspiration? Blood feud? REVENGE? Is it a recipe for modern world to survive?
Just curious, but why was #29, prinzowhales struck? Is this done by a vote, because of nasty words? And how did this initially very interesting, very enlightening discussion of spies, murder, and intrigue in the post Cold War period degenerate into a bitch fight over Israel and Palestine? Two points, it was the Germans in WWI who shipped Lenin to the city that would bear his name for almost 70 years, "[viz. "To the Finland Station"]and Ashkanazim, although I get the point. In poor abandoned Poland both the Nazis and the Reds killed whole sections of the population, in some towns the local priest who was one of the few there who could read. I cannot understand how any one, even a terrorist, could kill his own people in cold blood, people who look, speak, and even worship like him. Would that the world would take the Amish of Lebanon County, PA as its model! Pax.
Piet #86 I arent sure why post number #29 was removed. Who knows what the scotsman considers suitable and not suitable. Generally speaking, they do seem to allow a lot of leeway for debate and discussion from all points of view.
As for how this turned into a "bitch fight" over Israel and Palestine that may be my responsibility. I objected to a statement of dragomir referring to "jewish mafiosi" and pointed out that dragomir is, in my opinion anti-semitic, and an apologist for terrorism in the middle east. A viewpoint gathered from his many postings on many forums here on the scotsman.
I also joked that it wouldnt be long before he blamed the poisonings on Israel as he blames Israel for everything else. It wasnt my intention to change the topic of conversation to the Israel-Palestina issue. My intention was to point out the type of views dragomir seems to hold.
