enhanced by
Bookmark:
God bless England then!
If the English complain about the so called extra benefits the Scots get. what about all the benefits they had from the North Sea Oil.I think The Countries should stay together but the Scittish MP,s in Westminster should not vote on English matters.
Help, ma boab! Bill o' Dunblane, you're a magnanimous Scot blessing the English. Whatever next - will you be cheering on the English fitba team?
But what of our United Kingdom? I'm sure the EU will be gleeful if the UK splits up and the separate parts have even less influence on the decisions made in Brussels.
Actually, I think that this anti-English, anti-Scottish thing is all hyped up. I don't think that Scottish independence really exercises the English mind and that the preservation of the Union is still a price that English people are prepared to pay for.
Scots, by contrast, may want their independence from England, but do they really want to chance their fate in the EU, where small nations have little clout? Is Norway not a better model to emulate than Ireland or Denmark?
God bless the English nationalists God bless the Scots nationalists God bless the norwegian nationalists etcetc But look out for Labour imperialists looking out for their own London jobs
3 EWB - Magnanimous I am, but the rest, well, POSSIBLY after independence.
Really enjoying the cricket tho'! ;)P
Seriously, most of us are NOT anti English, just pro Scottish and anti British establishment.
The EU argument is pretty much a red herring. (If there's any left that is)
2 Scotscanuk - an unfortunate typo! - Scittish has other connotations in the local vernacular.
Shoosh!!
Best we keep quiet about the oil, electricity etc. While the English think THEY'RE supporting US, they'll support independence.
The more I read, the more I think IT really IS TIME!
Sorry, Bill of Dunblane, but I think that post-independence (It's time!), Scotland and England will have to consider their relationship to the EU.
The SNP hammers on about Scotland in Europe, but that means quitting a partnership with England, Wales and Northern Ireland to become a small country that will have little influence, cf what happened when the Irish rejected Nice or the Danes a similar treaty: go back and vote again! And don't let's delude ourselves: Scotland, unlike Ireland, will be a contributor nation, not a beneficiary nation.
Would Scotland not be better to stand by itself like Norway? It could trade with the EU but not lose its sovereignty. And it could reclaim its fishing grounds and its oil would not become the property of the EU under a common energy policy.
If England were asked to vote, the majority would reject the euro and any constitution establishing a European superstate. Ultimately, it's not enough to argue the case for the spurious economic benefits of the EU or the much vaunted chimera "influence" if we surrender our sovereignty and our right to govern ourselves.
Well I am sure people in England are happy enough to see us go, as it is very few peolpe in England have any knowledge of our input especially as the press both north & south peddle the myth that England pay,s our bill's.The fact is Scotland has roughly 1/3 of the land mass of the UK with only 1/10 the population it is alway's going to appear that we are getting more per head -I beg to differ. It's alway's going to cost more to service rural area's & island communities.The funny thing is when I was working in the highland's & island's every third person I met who lived there was English.You won't hear that mentioned in the Scottish press or the London evening standard that's for sure!The British state was built for empire & it is in decline. however, there is the problem of career politician's and it's huge in Scotland & it's not the SNP's doing though, it is clearly the Unionist job's for the boy's who are running scared of this coming more to the public attention. I'm an electrician not a politician and I have every faith that all the people of our 5 milllion population (500,000 of whom are English) can take Scotland forward in all front's, something the perfidious Labour party who try to keep our country relient on subsidy and hide the value of oil (MacCrone report 30 years of deceit) will never manage. Quite why because we want to trade and govern ourselves rather than by London make's us isolationist is too hillarious to rise to-Keep believin Scotland!
Go for it guys: Independence now. I mean you've got coastline, you're pissed with the bossy politicians in the south, you've got history in your corner...Really getting into this trip: So Iraq, obviously divide into three independent or at least autonomous regions.And don't forget the United States. When US citizens finally wake up to the crimes committed in their name, and the full level of government corruption, they may demand the country splits into say six separate independent sovereign nations. Alaska, Hawaii, California, Texas, Blue States, Red States, "the South will rise again". That’s seven, but who’s counting? An idea a little ahead of its time, but that’s always been my problem.
8 EWB
The debate is about Scotland's independence from the British state - not about Europe.
Don't really think the UK has a lot of influence in the EU as it stands just now anyway, (Scottish fishing would be a fairly prominent case in point) and Scotland has absolutely zilch. (hate these Americanisms!) - ANY representation for Scotland can only be an improvement.
If we are rich enough to contribute, then so be it.
Not exceedingly pro or anti EU - although I remember back in '75, only the north of Scotland rejected the then EEC - all of England voted in favour.
Whatever England decides to do regarding Europe is none of my business, and I have no right to comment upon it.
The english are doing Scotland a big favour Don 't screw it up again fellows.
I have always been for a free Scotland. However, is it feasable? Seems to me it would take years to do.I hope for Scotlands sake it starts soon. Long live free Scotland!
EU Commissioner Peter Mandelson and the other Eurocrats in Brussels must be laughing their socks off at all this talk of independence for Scotland and England.
All the main parties - SNP included - are European Unionist.
I take back all I have said about our good friends, the English, for all these years. You are alright!!
#14 Terry Interesting point about SNP being European Unionists.
The trouble with the word 'union' is that, for the Scots, this means 'what's yours is mine and what mine is mine' attitude from Westminster and Brussels as far our natural resources are concerned.
For example, Spanish fishing trawlers have to pay for a license to fish near the Falkland Islands. This has brought in much needed revenue for the FI. Of course the Spanish can take as much fish from the Scottish sector for free because - hey we are both part of this 'union'.
Westminster/Treasury controls the oil revenue and oil industry as this is what the 'union' with England demands. What's the chances of England handing over control of the British oil fields to Brussels for the sake of their 'union' with the EU!? The chairman of BP several years ago expresse his concern about Briitain (or England) eventually losing control of the oil fields to Brussels - THE IRONY!
I think the Scots have to be a wee bit more streetwise when it comes to dealing with Westminster or Brussels in the future.
Quite honestly I think Scotland has been shafted!
The English generally think of Scotland as a possession or colony. The Americans, and those from many other countries, think that Scotland is part of England. I've lived in the United States for 26 years and this has been my experience living among Americans, meeting people from other countries, and listening to English people on TV here talking about English money, English passports, etc. Scotland needs to be independent in my opinion. I think we'll do just fine as an independent country. Freedom for Scotland.
To Anthony Blair, G Brown, and all their fellow Englishmen: "We don't want to lose you, but we think you ought to go!"
What would happen if we vote back "Joke" McConnell and at the next general election the Tories(and I'm pretty sure this will happen)are voted in doon sooth?Anyone?
Its interesting that an American living and working in the U.K. is still an American.
Polish people working in the U.K are still Polish and not thought as foreigners in Poland.
The Irish living and working in the U.K. are still Irish.
The English in Spain and France are still English and not thought to be foreigners.
But! But! Should Scotland be an Independent country the Scots would be thought as foreigners if working outside Scotland. Gosh those unionists have a nerve, once again its one rule for us Scots and another for everyone else.
I DON'T THINK!
Still come May I think Scotland will wobble after all the unionist lies in the media.
The PM thinks Scotland should remain politically dependent, largely because a change would cause the UK government a "constitutional nightmare".
Isn't this the same administrative excuse that has been trotted out for hundreds of years for no UK constitution (effectively)? So much for checks and balances on governance.
#5 Bill, Dunblane hits the nail on the head - we're PRO-Scottish, that doesn't mean ANTI-English, unless it's when TV sports commentators are involved!
I'm delighted if 59% of English want us to go our own way - tell that to your politicians please, and let us do it!
William of Liberton 17
You can take them back, they're yours!
If, as I hope, Scotland retakes its independence, then I hope the loyal Scots such as Blair, Brown, Reid, etc take up their rightful place in the Scotish Parliament.
As for the English, I think not a few of us envy your golden opportunity to be free of Westminster and its iron grasp.
Ban Independence!
So, the poll indicates that you've now got to be nice to us - either to help you leave or persuade us against our better judgement to let you stay :)
Vote massively for SNP in May- that's the best chance you're going to get of achieving a referendum in the foreseeable future to sort out whether you want to stay or go.
I think the English people are eventually coming to their senses. England gain nothing from the union and must be commended for permitting Wales,Scotland and N.Ireland to hang onto their coat tails for so long.
Theirs is the 5th largest economy in the world and I believe that they should be permitted to go it alone once and for all.
Scotland will survive, sure taxes will go up, petrol will cost more, the exchange rate when travelling abroad will not be as benefitial as it is at the moment. Jobs will be harder to come by,the NHS will cease to exist and make way for privatised health care, many things will be different, but that is something that the Scots will need to endure.
Good luck, you are going to need it
We'll see about that...
Comments on this have been the best for ages. EWB@8 raises interesting points. These must be addressed ONLY by Scots in a Scottish Government. I am not interested in Sovereignty per say. I do not want a Sovereign and the sooner we leave what we have got with England the better. Of course we do not hate the English and I welcome those who come up here to contribute to our standards. I have asked many good citizens of England why they have come to stay here. Some for employment, some for family ties and a lot who openly admit that they want to embrace the quality of life up here. I can understand that but I always add the caveat that I do not want them to destroy my quality of life by making this country a little bit of england!!
I like the English - such wise people.
As Pete Wishart said recently, if the Scots don't hurry and make their minds up in favour of independence, the English will do it for them.
Did not the Corries sing about all our problems being solved when 'England get home-rule'. Bring it on. Independence is coming and maybe then we can become a modern forward looking nation with a vibrant culture like Ireland, Portugal or Sweden. With no need to spend billions of £s on dinosaurs like Trident.
Tha Alba shaor a' tighinn.... thig ar la!
So the majority of English people want independence.Far be it from us Scots to deny them their wish.Thank God we will no longer be "subsidised" by the benevolent Westminster parliament,whose concern for the welfare of the scots is so touching and an example to us all, and this is exemplified by the trillions of pounds in oil revenues, which have accrued to Westminster and theres not a bean of it in Scotland.Thats a clever trick! You can be subsidised by a neighbouring country when you pay more into their coffers than you take from it. Even the Magic Circle does not know about this trick!
North Sea Oil: Yawn, thats all I ever here from us. We are always whinging, the English are using us, the English are bad, the English this the English that, bla, bla, bla! In fact, so petty is our feud with them, that when England played Argentina in the 2002 WC, there were Argentinian football strips sold in Scotland then any other country in the world..Quite pathetic really!
As far as the oil is concerned..
While primary oil demand in European Union (EU) countries is projected to increase by 0.4% per year from now to 2030, North Sea output peaked in 1999 and has been on the decline ever since. The industry group the UK Offshore Operators Association (UKOOA) projected that North Sea output in 2004 would drop to 3.7 million barrels per day (mbd) from over four million last year before. In deed 2006 saw a further decline.North Sea oil has been declining at the annual rate of 6% to 17% for some time. Production, which peaked at 2.9 million barrels a day (bpd) in 1999, is set to fall to near half that level by 2007.
Be careful for what you wish, it may come true.
25 The fifth largest economy is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,not England! If England were a seperate entity she would drop quite a few places and no longer be a major economic player without Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland (which is what the definition of England would be).If you want to be taken seriously you are already at a disadvantage in being so far away,apparently so much that you dont even know what this country is called or how its composition is structured.Theres a fat chance of your economics being up to scratch then !
Morris: In 2005 the world's economic system is preeminently dominated by the United States, with a GDP of $11.7 trillion. The other trillionaire countries in existence today are Japan ($4.4 trillion), Germany ($2.0 trillion), China ($1.7 trillion), Britain ($1.7 trillion), France ($1.5 trillion) and Italy ($1.2 trillion). So, let's us assume that on the basis of economic size alone, those countries would constitute G7 (sorry Russia and Canada).
Within five years, China overtakes Germany, to become the third largest economy behind the United States and Japan. This is in spite of China's growth beginning to slow from the breakneck double digit rates of the 1990s to around 7% in 2010, and later to around 5% at the end of the following decade. China's economy slowly cools, but Japan's economy is stone cold in comparison, with a real growth rate of barely a percentage point per year in the coming decade. In 2016, China passes the $5 trillion barrier and overtakes Japan to become number two in the world.
You do the maths! China is number one by 2026...
Britain by contrast will reamain 5th! Should Scotland gain independence than England on her own will remain ahead of France and Italy whilst Scotland wll have a GDP closer to that of Poland.
If you are voting for independence on the basis that you think Scotland will be wealthier, hence healthier. Then I must state here and now that you will be sorely disappointed.
However, if it is a vote for independence based on your passion for Scotland regardless that it means things will be tougher, then I take my hat of to you and say good luck.
Some of My family Live in England and love it and its folk.When Scotland becomes independent ,They will just be as Happy and Proud of an English passport as they are a Brit one,They wont rush home .
So who were these English then who were asked in this poll ? I was not, not herd of anyone who was and not herd of anyone round here saying that they ant Scotland to go and dont hear anyone here saying anything derogitry abpout Scotland.Im off to Scotland next month for my third vist this year, where I like going very much.Maybe the answer would be for England to have its own parliament and Westminster just be the parliament for the UK.However it means more mp's or in this case, emp's ? more reaserchers,etc, expense accounts, fiddling, all at a time when the NHS, is in dire straights, wards and hospitals being closed, staff being sacked, crime at record levels, a dire education system turning out school leavers who cant even read and write.Billy Conalley was quite right when he said vote against having a scottish parliament, it will lead to just more expensive mp's and and their civil servents.The answer to the problem at Westminster, scottish mp's dont vote on matters effecting England or scrap the scottish parliament and welsh assembley, all mp's get to vote on legislation as before devolution, and use the taxpayers monet saved for the urgent and proper causes.
Media1@31/33 I am quite happy to take on board alternative suggestions even criticism of my own opinions but to pontificate about the root causes for Scotland and her Independence from a Scot ? living in South Africa with some statistics re oil is plain daft. I have never considered that oil alone was the reason for being independent. It would be a bonus but in no way the raison d'etre for fiscal independence. It is once again the chance to re-establish one of the world's oldest nations inter nationally and how that would affect five million inhabitants in a resource rich country.
Martin, by all means come to Scotland and enjoy what we have to offer. You certainly seem to relish your visits but please do not make too many suggestions about contributing to our structures in education or political agendas. Your post is interesting!
Penseroso: I may be based in Cape Town from time to time, but that does not mean I live here. I am in Nigeria quite often, Oman,UAE,Aberdeen and Saudi as well...
Now back to the point at hand! All I am attempting to point out is that OIL is not going to assist Scotland in becomming wealthy following independence.
Media 1 - You are once again somewhat out of kilter on most of your posts. In 31 in particular, why on earth should it be pathetic that we supported one foreign country against another?
This string is one of the most positive for a long time from BOTH sides of the arguement.
Martin 34 - you'll still be very welcome in Scotland, nobody is suggesting border posts. (although I'm sure the subject will be raised as Tony becomes more and more desperate) As for saving money - neither England nor Scotland would have to pay for all the Scottish MPs at Westminster as thy would become redundant, and therefore that they wouldn't be able to vote on English matters.
This really doesn't come as much of a surprise.
However, what will come as a surprise is the realisation of those English residents who support their/our independence about exactly how much the Scottish economy contributes to the UK Treasury. I suspect they might then change their minds.
With our strong Protestant work ethic and Calvanistic outlook, us Scots will succeed whether we remain part of the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or go our own way.
New Zealand: Sweden; Austria, Ireland, Denmark, Finland and Switzerland are not poorer than Poland.Why would Scotland be singled out as being so?
It just never ends.Only Scotland would have a border with the E.U.Only Scots living outside Scotland would be foreigners in their own land while everybody else would still have their nationality no matter where they live and work.
Only small wee Scotland would be a poor place to live while everyone else in a small nation can manage.
Oil has been running out since it was found and as oil is getting harder to find and costing more to bring up I would think the little left in the North Sea would go up in price as the oil runns out world-wide.England has had its share for 40 years Scotland should have the next 40 or 30 years.
Oh Goody the English want Independence for us Scots, wont it be nice go earn the revenue on our oil, they say to me the oil fields are already syndicated to American oils companys, well they will need to re-negociate with a Scottish government for anything in my teritorial waters..FACT.All revenue on whisky will come to us and we will be able to drop the tax and bring whisky back to the top of the Drinkers top 10.All that lovely gas and water that is going south will be paid for. Trade negotiations will happen under a Scottish banner, trust me I live in Australia you will do far better using the term Scottish here and not Brittish, that will apply for a great many other countries.Corporations of Scottish origins that wont deal with a Brittish government will deal with Scotland.For all living in Scotland there is a huge world out here waiting to trade with Scotland and its reputation for high quality honesty and integrity, qualities no Brittish trade delegation could live up to.Sure Scotland will need to trade with the south, as they with us but it will be done on an equal basis or we will spend or money else where, lets get the league of Celtic nations Going as a trade conglomeration of some weight and pull some big punches.Go Go Go the world is looking a brighter place and for wee Tony down south you truly are a flat footed, Bush loving genuflector, keep bashing the Scots mate because come May the new feeling your arse will have is a Big Scottish boot.Happy retirement wee man, you will be remembered as the man who created the rot that tore it apart.300 years we waited for you, patience and peace paid off for us.Saor Alba
Ian G: What is the benefit systems in the countries you just mentioned like?
What is the health sector like? What is their crime stats by comparison to Scotland's? What is the state of their education system like? Are their children also the worst behaved in Europe?What is the anti social behaviour problems like?
Without England, Scotland suffers!
If Scotland does become independant,what makes them so sure they will be able to join the EEC.I thought that membership was voted on by the other member states and that there was a waiting list of countrys to join.Does the SNP have an automatic entry?What would happen to business in Scotland if it has to compete against the whole of the EEC comunity?because that is what would happen until Scotland gained membership.
God bless opinion polls. They help fill the Sunday papers and keep us in idle chatter.
All this harping on about oil is irrelevant.
Oil has been found and exploited around our coasts in the last few years just like all natural resources like land, coal, minerals, water, fisheries and forests have been exploited in the past and the present.
All these resources are renewable or substitutable. What really matters is the people and their wish to live their own lives without interference. Some things need cooperation like health, education, defence, transport, police, fire; the rest can go hang, nobody needs them except politicians and other parasites.
If ever Scotland had the chance to regain independence it is now, I can't understand why there is any debate. You've seen off the unionists and will see off new labour who represent anything but labour.
When Scotland gets independence, SNP will be defunct and you'll end up with Liberals, Greens and Social Democrats and EU membership like many other smaller countries with less resources. Sonds good!
About 10% of North Sea oil is actually English and serviced in North East England. So theoretically we stand to gain from independence the same way the Scots would - except we know perfectly well that any "North East Parliament" would squander the profits on nonsense schemes - like, oh, a parliament building - and still go scrounging for handouts. Do you Scots think independence will make you richer and immune from your own politicians? Your romantic view of yourselves will come crashing down on your heads unless you regain your cynicism. By the way, the most important lesson you can learn is that most Scots can't speak Gaelic and are therefore nothing more than failed Geordies. Tha mi duilich.
42 Greg - G'day mate - enjoying the cricket? ;)
43 Media 1 - Perhaps the time has come to give us your own agenda? If Scotland is in such a bad state as you infer, why are you so desperate for it not to become independent?
44 paul - what makes you so sure that England will be able to join the EC? The same arguments apply.
it's the kind of early governments we would get which scares me
What is needed reference this debate is a committee to be formed.A committee of experts who are neither pro independence or union, who will not have an agenda or predetermined outcome of their findings, who will look at the pro's and con's of both independence and the union without any political or government interference.Who will produce a truthful report on how the UK fares domestically, nationally and internationally now as the union and how the separate countries will fare if independent. To word the report in layman terms for all to understand and then release it into the public domain without recommendations for the public to make up their own minds.The members for this committee may be hard to find but it is the only way that the people will know the truth of what the future holds. This committee will never be considered by the powers that be as that would mean the public knowing the truth either way.
Opinion polls can be easily slanted & it is rare for one to come out with a result the cudtomer doesn't want. I don't believe that any real poll would come out with the English currently voting for independence from Scotland.
I do think that an impartially run referendum in both countries would vote for independence from Brussels. "Independence in Europe" is NOT an independence policy.
Alba 7 said "The fact is Scotland has roughly 1/3 of the land mass of the UK with only 1/10 the population it is alway's going to appear that we are getting more per head -I beg to differ. It's alway's going to cost more to service rural area's & island communities." The confusion here is that he is actually admitting that Scotland is getting more money because we inately will always have more expenses. If this is acknowledged as being inevitable (as opposed to merely being the result of the incompetent socialist political class here, as I believe) then it is an acknowledgement that we will continue to need proportionate subsidy even after separation.
I think it unlikely that westminster or indeed Brussles would subsidise an independent Scotland. I think we would be better trying to get competent Scottish leaders before letting them lead us into the wilderness.
Walter 52
I thought we'd done that; they call it a Parliament.
Shouldn't the case be that the English should submit a request to Scotland for their independence?I believe that THEY are the subject race.
As usual the “son o the manse” is talking from that orifice below his waistline. Despite being a Scot I have relations in Ireland, England Wales and even in Portugal; last, but not least I have a son-in-law from Mauritius, yet this well spread family causes no communication problems. Just what is this idiot on about? Is he trying to imply that after independence I won’t be able to live in England, or spend time here in Portugal, or live with my son in Glasgow?
I thought GB purported to be well educated and if so he should know that ‘the sum of the parts is greater than the whole’. The larger the organisation the more difficult it becomes to manage and the more remote become the Administration and the less they concern themselves with the lower orders. A Britain of independent countries working together in matters of common interest, whilst adjusting their policies to meet the needs of those in their country, would be far more effective than the current one size fits all of Westminster.
David Cameron has it exactly the wrong way round. I can’t understand why, as independence would be to the political advantage of the Tories. They would certainly rout the socialists in England and, I believe, after a reasonable short period they would start to recover in Scotland. Scottish Tories need to come out in support of the undoubted desire of the Scots to undo this enforced Union. I believe they would be pleasantly shocked by the result.This morning I hear on TV the Scottish Rottweiler – Reid - it trying scare tactics – typical! When will politicians return to REPRESENTING the people and respecting their wishes. NOT dictating a policy that is unwanted by the Electorate. If the Labour party continue down this road they will consign themselves to the political dustbin.
Bill Dunblane: I am not desperate for Scotland NOT to become independant. In truth I am uncertain at this stage as to what would be best for her.
I am more inclined to believe that far too many Scots want independence from England based on a petty rivalry which stems back to the days of William Wallace. There will be national fervour, it will seem as if the whole of Scotland is one voice and one driving force. But how long will it last before the fervour is replaced with the realisation that being on our own is not any easier than it was before? I concluded that Scotland was not the best environment in Europe as far as certain aspects surrounding anti-social behaviour,education and crime were concerned because these are things which will impact on her even more negatively than they do at present.
Which is why the decision MUST be taken seriously and not just simply done on spur of the moment passions and ancient rivalry.
Time will tell, but I believe that if Scotland is truly serious about independence she should start showing how responsible and ready she is for it..Thus far I see nothing from her people in terms of crime,education, discipline and general economic growth to tell me that she will be any better off.
As a Scot living in north east England just now, i see the very big differences living here compared to Scotland. It was quite a culture shock to find out how far behind they are down here with public transport, with inner city renovation. Inner city where i am is terrible, they couldnt pay me to ;live there. It`s sad to see the places in such a state compared to Scotland`s cities. We have almost eradicated slums in Scotland and see very little run do wn properties. Here, there is such a lot needs doing. Liverpool is now knocking down old slum properties and rebuilding. Manchester did that a few years ago and is making a huge difference in the city. With Transport, i have found the buses are very old and dirty definatley of a poor standard compared to buses in Scotland, which are mostly new or ner new conditiona and are kept clean and of good repair.Hospitals although good caring people working in them , have had to put up with lack of drugs for cancer patients, where in Scotland they are used every day, regardless of cost. They are having to fight for them down here. So when people say they dont want independance for Scotland, they should think again and look how well Scotland is doing with the Scottish parliament and how well they could do with independance. i certainly agree that Scots Mps shouldnt vote on English matters, we cant have it both ways.
I think it is high time we got rid of those English subsidy junkies. Once the split happens then they will have to pay in full for our oil,gas, water ,hydro electricity and everything else they have stolen from us over the last 300 years. Independence for England the sooner the better.
Both scotland and England would lose with independance and those who advocate it are either ill informed or living in the past. How would you divide up the shared resources of the UK?
Those who advocate an independent scotland following the norwegian model, should perhaps know that Norway implements EU legislation so that it can trade with Europe, but that has no influence on how it is formulated!
The fishing issue is one that exercises Scots minds disproportionately, just how important is this industry to the overall economy of the UK or Scotland; what future does it have anyway when fisherman decry scientists and won't entertain sensible conservation practices.
The scots regiments, surely they will be disbanded, after all Scotland will not need huge armed forces. Or to pay there way, will they become rent an army like those of some of Eastern europe for international adventures like Iraq.
how well run is scotland anyway, there seems to be more of an old boys network at work there than there ever was in London. Look at the movement of ministries from Edinburgh to Glasgow, incidently run by the wife of the first minister!
Finally England, will be diminished in the EU, the seat in the UN would come under pressure and London may be threatened by an invigorated financial sector in Edinburgh.
And what about the overseas possesions, surely scotland would have to take on financial responsibility for a share of these?
57 - Media 1 - Thank you! A more reasoned response such as your latest post will encourage more enlightened debate.
Of course there is an element of the 'Braveheart' about nationalism - who could deny loving and being proud of one's own country? The English, Irish, Welsh and most other countries in the world have similar feelings about their own lands, and nobody would deny them that.
But that is NOT why we want independence.
The decision WILL be taken seriously, and far from being done on the spur of the moment, it has taken us decades to reach this position.
We had the discussion on crime last week, and without independence we have very little influence on our own economic position.
Thankfully Scottish (and English) independence is in the hands of the Scottish people, not the politicians. If the Scots wish to govern themselves, in a mature international sense that is, then all they have to do is vote for it. It seems illogical that the Scots, or any peoples for that matter, should vote to be governed by a foreign nation (through the preponderance of English MP's). For any nation this should be regarded as demeaning and embarrasing, as well as unpatriotic. The 1707 Union (of Parliaments) was hardly a democratic institution in the first place as there was no referendum involved in creating the UK. In any event the 'United Kingdom' is surely a wierd name to apply to any 'country', is it not? But the UK is not a country as such, it is a treaty-based institution comprising two nations. The likes of Gordon Brown and his ilk think of the UK as a single nation - how stupid can they be! The UK is much like the EU, the latter an association of countries, albeit with some subtle differences. Historic nations are the essential component parts of treaty-based institutions of this nature. Ultmately, of course, Treaties can and are broken. Undemocratic, unpatriotic treaties like the one that created the United Kingdom should be broken. Its time for Scotland to retain her place in the world of free nations.Hail Scotia, and all who sail with her!
I think Ireland is a good example. If we get our independence it will be without first, a war against England and secondly, a civil war. Add to that the continuing relgious stife cause by having had part of her country lopped off, i think Eirinn has done well to come through it. Ireland's only one example. We could look to the likes of all the Nordic countries, Portugal, Belgium, Switzerland, Slovena and ask 'what have they got'? Scotland has more to offer than many of these nations plus has an international reputation and profile far bigger than its population suggests it should.
An indpendent Scotland would also be supported by tens of millions of ex-pats and Scots descendents the world over.
We can do it.
#62 Gaga: "The 1707 Union (of Parliaments) was hardly a democratic institution in the first place as there was no referendum involved in creating the UK"
Not the first time someone has used modern parlance, such as "democracy" and "referendum", to refer back to something that happened long before such concepts existed around these parts. Might just as well condemn the Scots for ethnic cleansing (destroying the Picts, as per Declaration of Arbroath) , after landing from Ireland. See, that's what uncontrolled immigration does to a country - the ba*#<s take over!
Braveheart/Wallace stuff might be good old-fashioned rabble rousing fun in the pub but it's nothing to do with resolving the way forward.
"had part of her country loped off" you say. I am an Ulsterman - that loped off part as you call it is MY country. If the Union goes then I want an Independent Ulster. Ulster-Scots and proud.
#48 Bill Dunblane: "...what makes you so sure that England will be able to join the EC? "
Hey, now that's a thought - so we could get independence and no be longer in EC? Win/win situation!
Bear in mind that Eurotrundling along will solve all the boundary squabbles in the British Isles in due course, as we'll finish up as parts of one sovereign superstate anyway. If that's what people desire, then forget about all this Independence v Union debating; just sit back and wait.
#64, I can trace my ancestry back to the Picts, they were not "destroyed" as you put it, and there was no "ethnic cleansing". YOU ARE TALKING GARBAGE!!!!The Declaration of Arbroath was nothing to do with Scot/Pict unity. It was about independence from English rule. If you dont know anything about Scottish history, why bother pretending otherwise?
#65, We dont care!
I think it's not so much that the English want Scotland to be independent, as that we want our country to be independent.There would continue to be a United Kingdom of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, with the Celtic countries acting as an economic, political, and religious unit - either within or outwith the EC as they chose.
I still want to know how serious Scots are about independence.
The stats suggest that her chidren are the most disruptive in Europe, her anti social behaviour is the worst, her crime is the worst, her health is the worst and she also suffers from religious divide and racial tension.
Now, if the things I just mentioned were being adressed and Scotland was becomming a prouder nation I would be all for the independence. However, it appears that the real reasons for this drive toward independence all rests on braveheart and a long hatred of English football.
If it was anyhing other than that then Scottish pride and pride in Scotland would not permit such high levels of crime,anti social behaviour, bad health and disrespectful children.
It seems Scotland is not ready for independence
15. W Smith - you make a crucial point:
"The chairman of BP several years ago expressed his concern about Britain ... eventually losing control of the oilfields to Brussels".
BP is, after all, New Labour's favourite company.
Scots need to understand exactly what the "European Union" is:
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1688522006 See my post #21("exclusive" should be spelt with a "c").
Question: why does it have to be such an "all or nothing" resolution, like a divorce? Couldn't England and Scotland have independent parliaments for the running of their respective countries (education, health care, infrastructure care like roads, etc.) but have some kind of body where matters of joint concern could be handled together (defense, perhaps)?
Menzies: Your idea is a very good one, but the Scots have a massive chip on their shoulder and wont allow it..
Its all or nothing I am afraid
#53 Neil. I can think of many English people who would favour ending the Union. English nationalism has really taken off this past decade. The only hope of ending the union though is totally down to the SNP. Labour, Tory and Lib Dem wont listen to the majority on anything. Good luck SNP.
71. Menzies - what is skewing everything is the "elephant in the room", the issue which none of the main parties is strong enough to address: the European Union. Labour wants to deliver up the UK to the federal superstate on a plate, with Scotland still attached.
For example, Brussels wants the Scottish Executive in Edinburgh to take an annual 5,650 tonnes of Hexafluorosilicic Acid, toxic waste from the European phosphate fertiliser industry, and dispose of it in our water supplies:
www.fluoridealert.org Latest News - SCOTLAND.
Scottish Labour is about to finalise its Manifesto for next May's election: will it come clean about its fluoride plan?
#67 Steve re destroying the Picts - most awfully sorry to offend you by simply using the phraseology (or garbage as you call it) from Declaration of Arbroath: "..the Picts they utterly destroyed.."Obviously didn't fully destroy your Pictish ancestry - just its sense of humour.
Point was to get people to stop dwelling on the past and focus on what is right for the future.
They are not going to get rid of Blair, Brown et al that easily!
I have always been in favour of giving England its independence too.
71 Ming - Defence is probably the LAST thing that we should dream of sharing. England, by strength of numbers, would still dominate the decision making.
Iraq and Trident (and son of) are two prime examples why it can never be so. As is the obscene amount of money spent on defence trying to pretend that Britain is still some sort of leading world power.
Do you not know couples who remain in a loveless marriage just 'living apart together'? That's what it would be like.
Perhaps you would like your larger neighbour to the south to be responsible for decisions about your defence etc. Would you like Washington to rule your country?
#74: thanks for that insight. I find the thought of hexafluorosilicic acid going into Scotlands pure lochs and burns a chilling one and hope Scots fight that one down. Let Europe work out a better way to handle its agricultural industry rather than accepting their toxic byproducts.
Re the elephant: if England and Scotland each ran their own parliaments, wouldn't that dissolve any current agreements with the EU, allowing Scotland and England to renegotiate on their own terms?
#76 Brian1: "I have always been in favour of giving England its independence too."
Patronising Scottish *$@#!!! :D
.. but in that little witticism lies an essential truth, ie that the union v independence decision stands a chance of being resolved in a Scottish referendum, if next May results in a strong SNP victory, but there certainly ain't gonna be an English referendum allowed on the matter. Thus you would decide whether I stay or go and that's why the topic is of such interest to this particular Englishman.
#77: point taken and well understood (Canada did NOT go into Iraq). I was actually only thinking of defense of the whole island, not independently managed foreign affairs. Seemed more cost effective to have one navy patrolling the whole coast, a joint army defending all of the land.
Within living memory, several countries have had to split up because of profound cultural and/or or religious differences. Examples are India, Czechoslovakia, Ireland and the former Yugoslavia. Partition may soon have to take place in Iraq.
So the question for the UK is, how serious are the cultural or religious differences between England and Scotland? If the differences are not too severe, better to stick with the status quo. Canada and Belgium each have two cultures and two different languages, but they are holding together as countries and doing all right.
Getting back to Scotland, the main problem right now is its government. The SNP is the obvious alternative, but what they should simply offer is good government in the Scottish interest, with independence a separate issue to be decided later by referendum. The "separatist" Parti Quebecois in Canada has governed Quebec for several terms over the last 30 years, but independence has been defeated in two referenda.
Bill #54The last time I looked a parliament was full of politicians.
#81, we dont need to hate each other to want independence. I have relatives all over England. And Scotland is a nation, Flanders and Quebec arent and never were, as far as I know.
You say "the SNP should offer good government in the Scottish interest, with independence as a seperate issue to be decided later by referendum"
They do!
During the negotiations of 1706/1707 the Unionist Commissioners from both nations made one massive mistake! Unlike Ireland and Wales, Scotland had been a sovereign state with many unique State Institutions which defined it as a separate nation, and which it retained after Incorporation! The old Scots Parliament was simply suspended! Historically, Scotland has always been a nation within a unitary state. A Trojan Horse of a nation waiting to re-emerge when the time was right! Overseas observers were astounded by the ease with which Devolution was introduced but forgot that the Scottish Parliament was simply reconvened after almost 300 years of lying dormant! It was one of the oldest European parliaments in history, and still is a remarkable State Institution. All the warnings have gone unheeded and everyone now realises that Scotland will never return to a centralised British State!? It is over, the old Great Britain is long Gone With The Wind! Lachie Todd
78. Menzies - Ref. Hexafluorosilicic Acid, please see my post #70, above: it has a link to a post in the Scotsman from a few days ago, which itself contains an eye-opening video.
Ref. the elephant in the room: it has already made substantial inroads into both Scotland and England. The Scottish Parliament is bound by the Scotland Act 1998 to obey European Union laws, even more so than most EU member states themselves.
In England, even though the plan for 8 regional assemblies has met stiff resistance, their bureaucracies - the Regional Development Agencies - are already in place, and have substantial consultative powers. The plan is to divide the UK up into a total of 12 EU regions, including the Scottish Parliament, and the Assemblies in London, Wales and Northern Ireland.Labour's Charles Clarke, in a speech in Edinburgh, has just proposed tailoring the Westminster parliament and the Whitehall departments to better suit the "English regions".
Even without independence from the UK, Scotland will be left with a handful of MEPs at the European Parliament, and a handful of seats on the EU Committee of the Regions (currently held by Jack McConnell, the First Minister, Irene Oldfather, a Labour MSP, and some local councillors).
Brussels will have a field day.
78. Menzies - I would add that Scotland will still have its MPs (mostly Labour) at the Westminster parliament, but the majority of legislation there is now effectively handed down from Brussels, and rubber-stamped by MPs.
I think that the people of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland are essentially the same. There has been so much migration across the borders that to think of ourselves as genetically one or the other is wrong.
I think the reason for a swell of pro-independence in the British Isles lies with dis-satisfaction with the present centralised system of government.
Most of our institutions have become so bloated and self serving that they have become unmanageable. The political system prevents reform since so many people are employed in these "industries" that they are hardly likely to vote for mass reform. Also with most of the wealth still being held by a few we have many unresolved issues with an absolute inertia in getting anything done.
I think the people sense this and blame a Westminster divorved from reality. English people feel the same way because Scotland may be much further from Westminster geographically, buti it is probably nearer politically with the Scottish mafia running the Country.
My conclusion is that everyone wants a divorce from Westminster and not necessarily a break up of the Union. A federal republic anyone?
Everytime I look at these I think I will be inspired but I always turn out depressed!I have no agenda, don't support a particular party but it does seem profoundly depressing that people are always so anxious to pull apart (perhaps it's an an animal instinct?).I was born in England of Irish (with Scottish way back!) and Welsh parents and I'm proud of all these roots. I'm happy to be Irish/Scottish/Welsh/English and British and European and love the fact that people are open and warm enough to be able to embrace multi-layered identity rather than just exclusively one thing and one only. I may be wrong but as an ordinary person it always seems so sad when people reject it.
I am in favour on the union, and to be honest, i dont know of any English people who are not.
On the subject of England losing influence in Europe and the world, this will not be the case. England has a GDP of $1.8 trillion and Scotland $130 billion. If anything this highlights the wealth disparity between the two.... England having a GDP per capita of $35,000 and Scotlands being $25,000. You have to of course put this in the context of geography, Scotland is much more rural than England and so should be expected to have a lower GDP per capita than urban England.
As for international standing, France has an economy of $1.8 trillion too, so England will be able to maintain its seat on the security council and maintain a military of a roughly similar size to that of the French. However, where England will suffer will be in areas where voting in the EU is based on population, which will obviously be less (though not significantly). In general though, England will not suffer as a result of Scottish independence (if you dont mind Tory governments that is).
Comment@1 Agreed
The Union of England and Scotland was a Union of the Crowns of both countries.
One objective was that common cause would lead to more effective defence of English and Scottish interests in the big and dangerous world outside the island of Great Britain.
Does not a similar condition exist today?
Where are the BRITISH politicians?
Gordon Brown? David Cameron? Don't make me laugh!
And as for the rest who seem to be hell bent on political union in the E U. What can I say?
Patricia 58 all the examples of how much better we run things than northern England are government spending. This is not because of the efficient, thrifty & competent government in Holyrood. Has it not occured to you that we can do this only because we get about £1,800 a head more than them every year?
To use this here as an argument for independence is unwise since we would lose that money . I have some sympathy with those northern English who support our independence for that reason.
So what if the SNP become the largest party in May? It is unlikely to have a majority and will probably have to rely on the support of other parties.In the first instance, it gives them the right to lead a goverment.That is a healthy thing in that it means an alternation of power away from the Labour establishment; the Tory party has had no credibility in Scotland for over 20 years, and the Lib Dems are in alliance with Labour.A referendum on independence is a separate issue.A number of things could then happen.If the Scots vote for indepedence,then it will happen and there will be major geo-political implications in the UK and beyond in the EU,NATO and UN.If they reject it,there are a number of other possibilities.One is that they cock-up as a government and get thrown out at the following election.Meanwhile,there are two further scenarios;one is the Quebec scenario,where Unionism hangs on by a wafer thin majority,even with a nationalist government trying to extract concessions.The other is the Czechoslovakia scenario,where the Czechs called the Slovaks bluff and the country broke up,even though the majority of Slovaks didn't want independence.It could go either way
New Labour is the political wing of the multinationals, and an unholy alliance of money-grabbing globalists and former communists, bent on the destruction of the nation state.
"Paddy" Blair Mayne, SAS hero and the most highly decorated soldier of the Second World War, died in a car accident in his native Northern Ireland in December, 1955, the year the IRA started to move in supplies for its Border Campaign.
A dentist and scientist, Geoffrey E. Smith, was sent by MI6 to investigate whether there was any sinister aspect involved in the accident. He mentioned this isolated fact in a book he wrote 40 years later, on a different subject.
The book's title was "The Secret War and the Fluoride Conspiracy".
In 1994, Christopher Bryson, an award-winning journalist, formerly with the BBC in the USA, wrote a book entitled "The Fluoride Deception", which shows how the US military-industrial complex, in order to safeguard its power and profits, elevated a strategic chemical - and protected pollutant - above the human race itself.
So if you are interested in real independence, whether at the level of your nation or of your kitchen tap, I suggest you watch this short video:
www.video.google.com (type Christopher Bryson into the search window).
hello rory
#96 RichardA referendum, if the SNP attains power next May, would not be a separate issue. According to its website, it will mount a referendum on independence upon gaining power in the Scottish Parliament and goes on to say:
"Will an independent Scotland be run by the SNP?Only if the people vote for an SNP Government after Independence. The SNP proposes that there be new elections to the Scottish Parliament shortly after Independence has been declared."
Whilst I am content with Union (.. though with improvements), I would not wish to remain in #77 Bill's "loveless marriage" if our Scottish partner wanted out. Therefore I would welcome an early referendum to try and clear the air. In view of the SNP proposal of new elections after independence, it seems safe for any pro-independence person to vote SNP next May, regardless of their usual voting preference. At the subsequent election, voters could then revert to whatever is their preferred party.
we dont want devolution we want total independence
Ref. my post 97 - "The Fluoride Deception" is a new book, written not in 1994 but in 2004.
I live in England and don't want Scotland to gain independence because it would mean the tories always being in power.
However if England and Scotland did gain independence and one left the E.U (most likeley England) could we make sure we gave each other prefrential treatment in terms of work and travel.
102. worriedenglishman - I for one do not know the answer, but you could email your question to these two SNP figures:
salmonda@parliament.uknicola.sturgeon.msp@scottish.parliament.uk
Why do we need to be independant? In the last 299 years have we not evolved into one nation? Scotland today is not much differant from our southern neighbour, we have the same values,the same language, we are the same race (this matters in some places apparently). Scotland and England are one nation and have been for some time. Fair enough, some are going to nitpick at various differences, but what about the differences between the Lowlands and the Highlands? Glasgow and Edinburgh? We have seperate sport teams. Thats enough for me.
Independence is coming, but not as we know it. We have no control of our borders within the EU as it is, so what difference independence would make is questionable. I support the notion, but not the SNP.
#102
Might have been nicer to suggest that you didn't want Scottish independence because of positive affection for Union, rather than as an expedient for blocking the Tories! :)Can't see any reason why independence shouldn't retain the same practical freedoms as presently exist between us and Rep Ireland.
Shouldn't necessarily presume that present main parties in England or Scotland will continue to predominate, though I would guess that Tories will win next UK General Election by a similar reaction to the ruling party as brought Labour victory in '97. Tories & Lab are so indistinguishable in core philosophy nowadays, that they are circling the same sort of prey- sorry, I mean voters. Both might well look round one day and be surprised to find that some of their alienated people have drifted off not only to SNP but younger parties such as UKIP and, south of the border, English Democrats.
206. Ken S. - David Cameron has effectively reneged on his promises about the Common Fisheries Policy and about the Tory MEPs leaving the Euro-federalist group in the European Parliament. He has therefore left the already lacklustre Scottish Conservatives up a creek without a paddle. Nicol Stephen, leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, has damaged his party's chances with his mortgage interest expenses affair. So next May's Scottish Parliament election will be a two-horse race between Scottish Labour and the SNP.
I suspect that, behind closed doors, you couldn't get a cigarette paper between the main parties, including the SNP.
Not only are they all European Unionist, they're all Euro-federalists.
#89 Eddy
Sorry to break it to you, but it is really Scotland that has the greater GDP per head in the UK, not England. Your analysis is quite flawed as Scotland's TRUE GDP per head is really not as low as that and that you are also overstating England's a tad too.
For instance, much of what Scotland and England REALLY contributes to the UK economy is disguised by the way that the tax returns are shown. This is due to the fact that most businesses in the UK (International, UK-wide and even some Scottish- only businesses), have their registered offices in England and, primarily, in London.
Due to this all these companies pay the tax they earned in the whole UK at that head office. Even though much of these businesses draw their incomes from all four countries in the UK all these taxes are ONLY attributed to England. Thus, the "English" GDP figure you have unthinkingly quoted is actually, in fact, bogus.
Another thing: You obviously don't realise that a fair sized chunk of GVA has always been omitted from Scotland's share of the UK's ecomomy. I am talking about Scotland's share of the Extra-Regio GVA from what is internationally-recognised Scottish waters, which amounts to around £22 billion.
In all government analysis of Scotland's GDP over the years, this has NEVER been included as part Scotland's economy - even though the whole area falls under Scottish legal jurisdiction.
When Scotland's share of the Extra-Regio revenues is then included, the picture changes remarkably.
Instead of Scotland's GDP being £89 billion in 2004, it was actually more like £111 billion.
Due to this, the GVA per head - with Extra-Regio revenues distributed fairly - would then also change to:
England - £17,259
Scotland - £20,809
How very interesting!
So who's really the poorer neighbour?
107 Terry "Not only are they all European Unionist, they're all Euro-federalists."
That's why in due course I'll be voting UKIP or ED, whichever puts up a candidate locally. And if they don't bother, on basis that Boris J. has an unassailable hold on this true-blue constituency, then I'll vote for any other loony candidate just for the hell of it!
I'm all for national self-determination, whether defined as UK or, as a possible consequence of your May elections, England.
G'night
McPlucky 104 - if Scotland and England are 'one nation', you appear to be poor at arithmetic. By the way, I feel just as comfortable, if not more, with folk and culture in Norway and The Netherlands as I do with the English, but this does not mean I have to sacrifice nationhood and the more serious decision making to them, does it? As for 'shared values', please define, though hopefully not in Gordon Brown's time-warped 1950's terminology. Empire's gone - its now time for the main internal colony to exit. Don't worry, we'll be ok! Be plucky, McPlucky, not servile!!
Ken no 79, firstly I invite you to try saying that to my Scottish face, secondly there is nothing patronising about believing the best hope for the UK is to have independent countries working in a federation.
Your response smacks of arrogance and a failure to understand that ENGLAND IS NOT BRITAIN, just a part of it. At the moment the English are being shortchanged by the current setup.
#8-Jason in Japan- are you nuts? and are you running for office? I'll vote . Also, are the Japaneese still as small as i remember?
10Jason in Japan- are you nuts? and are you running for office? I'll vote . Also, are the Japaneese still as small as i remember?
#96 Richard M: it's getting interesting over here too, with the Prime Minister stating that Quebec is a nation but within our union. We're not sure what exactly that means in any real or practical terms but allons!
Well it's about time the English were actually asked.
We've endured hollow threats of independence from Scots for generations.
Now you're bluff has been called are you going to show your hand.
And if you do is it going to be a royal, or a busted flush?
Many in England are not much bothered about whether Scotland or England subsidises the UK. Only independence will tell us for sure.
Mind you, the North Sea borders will have to be redrawn according to international law, and not remain as they are, favouring Scotland.
Scotland has been siphoning off England's oil for too long now.
MP Brown - listen to the public, the majority of English want Scotland to go it alone. The majority of Scots want independence. The public vote you & other MP's into power so start drafting a real document for a possible separation. After all if the people who vote you in want this and you don't carry out an order then you will be out of power & office and we will put in some one who stands up and delivers what they say they a can do. Now beat it you chin wobbling fool. And no we don't want you to be our PM. Take joke McConnell with you.
#111 Brian1Well, that little chuckle fell rather flat. It was supposed to be an ironic reversal of the more usual 'patronising' accusation levelled at the English in relation to their current Union partners.I thought :D was supposed to indicate that it wasn't a serious remark. This web etiquette is rather new to me, so I'm sorry that I gave a totally wrong impression!
My previous posts (inc other threads on this topic) will indicate that I am certainly not averse to independence or scornful of the idea and, for example, I have refrained from entering any who-subsidises-whom knockabouts, as I regard the subject of independence v union as a matter for the heart rather than the pocket. Admittedly, I have been known to mock those whose motivation for independence seems rooted in the long distant past, as compared with those wishing to progress confidently to a new beginning. Raking resentfully over history will not change it; only the future can be made different. I have also chided those whose preference for continued union seems more based on scepticism about the economics of independence than a passionate desire to stay linked for its own sake.
#115 Stephen Gash
What are you talking about the North Sea borders favouring Scotland when it comes to the oil revenues?
As it has been pointed out Scotland has never been allocated her fair share of the revenues from the Scottish side of the border, even though the vast majority of the UK's oil fields lie there. The oil revenues have NEVER been counted as Scottish income but have always been classed as income from "The Continental Shelf" (as if it is from a different region of the UK) and this is always added on to the total UK revenues but never, ever Scotland's.
With this fiddle in place th UK Government then allocates the Extra-Regio revenues to each country in the UK as per population share. So for the last few decades England has been classed as "generating" around 85% of the revenue.
So if anyone has really been "siphoning" off more oil than their own share, it can only be England.
So Scotland is being favoured? You're certainly having a laugh!
Fact & let’s not kid ourselves:Scotland’s initial independence will mean higher rates & taxes until figures are worked out & settle.Te North sea borders have been worked out by Westminster years ago to ensure that England has ownership of much of the O&G reserves offshore. However this could be challenged at the European courts a theft. Scotland & Aberdeen would need much control for a sustainable future.
If it will stop them moaning then I think we should give the English their Parliament. Personally I am, tired of their chippiness and constant complaining that they are victims of this and that.
Archie - agree 100%. Enough chat, the public want action.
As of 14 April, 2005, the total value of the wines held at Bute House was £2,238.00
Toxic Jack's not looking at all well.
Five months until the election. Time for a wee drink yet, Jack.
Scotland needs to have Independence. It needs to be able to make its own way and exert its own zone of infulence. You need to feel free to Develope your culture. You can absorb folk from other culturs and make them Scottish. As a nation you are a way of Life. I don't see that there is a posibibility that anythig like our American system would work for you. Scotland needs more than to be one state in a union. There are larger issues where your economic intreste, The Defence and Security of the whole of the Island. The interlinking of the transport system and many others that I as a interested but distant American cannot know. Reading some prior comments , I can see that Scotlandshould add its GMP so the British Iles can maintain a place of real influnence in the world economey. It may be necessary to to be a free and independent nation inside a Cooperative Union with ite own limited powers to include England, Scotland, Wales and Nothern Ireland. Good Luck to Scottish Independance, May it work out for the very Best for all.
118. SawneyI wish when people like yourself bang on about the oil revenue issue and bleat about how Scotland doesn’t get its proper share of revenue when based on geographic location of the oil fields within British waters, you would remember the fact that, no matter how much you hate it, Scotland is part of the Union. You’re crying over spilt milk, if however following the creation of an Independent Scotland England continues to take the revenues from oil fields within Scotland’s territorial waters…then you’ll have justification to moan and moan and moan…and I’m sure you’ll do it very well.
120. That's irony right?
Thank God they FINALLY agree with us! Good riddance to them- and them I am coming hame ............ once and for all - are 'they' going to miss the tax money that has been sent for centuries North of the Border .....and hopefully they won't be after us AGAIN to continue thier "English' Royalty line!!
Oh and by the way - we don't need "THEM" to tell US ANYTHING! We can make our own decisions, and the sooner the better.
#126 ECHELON_X
Nice comments.
It is a true pity that your own point: "The oil's in British waters, not Scottish" is really a load of hogwash.
http://www.un.org/Depts/los/LEGISLATIONANDTREATIES/PDFFIL...
As you can see in the link above there is such a thing as Scottish waters due to Scotland having a differing legal system from England and Northern Ireland and, as such, all UK waters are partitioned into areas adjacent to each of the above countries under their repective legal jurisdictions.
So do you not think it most puzzling that the economic activity from internationally-recognised Scottish territory has NEVER been alluded as part of Scotland's fiscal position by Westminster?
Do you not also find it strange that that the Government then allocates the revenues from International, UK-wide and some Scottish-only businesses who have their head offices in England - but earn their revenues all over the UK - as solely being English GDP?
That is a nice double standard by the Government and it is a FACT that they do that.
Another thing: I particularly like the way you can a make personal judgement of a person from just an online message. You are really some person.
I really hope you never strained your sole brain cell when coming up with your "bleat", "crying over spilt milk" and the "moan and moan" comments.
It is a true pity you never saw fit to point out that the poster I was responding to started the "moan" with the rubbish that Scotland has benefited from "England's" oil.
I remember, a few years ago, Robin Cook delivering his "Theres no such thing as British" speech at a Labour conference. Curious that the Labour party now seems to be wrapping itself up in the Union flag, and using scare tactics on the Scottish population again. It might work, after all, it did before. But..if Scotland and England become independent, wither Wales and Ulster?I did read the "Who subsidises who" debate here. Neither do, in the case of Scotland and England. Both sides seem to forget that Wales and Ulster get huge subsidies totalling billions. Neither can survive on their own, at least right now, and neither will get into the EU for a long time, so no help there. Mass emigration from both areas, possibly? That could certainly destabilise Scotland, England, and the ROI.Also, surely no part of the former UK will be automatically EU members? If not, what happens if Scotland joins(likely), and England doesn't(also likely)? Wouldn't Scotland find itself effectively cut off from the Single Market despite voting for it?Finally, excluding the dodgy area of Iraq and Afghanistan, British troops are involved in pretty hefty peace-keeping operations world-wide. Assuming Scots make up ten percent of the numbers, and are withdrawn from NATO by Mr Salmond, I hate to think what will happen in those areas. I would certainly like some answers to these points rather than the endless Barnett/Oil/bought and sold/Scottish Raj boredom..
Ah there's non so loyal to Scotland as those that live out side it,funny that huh.When and if Scotland gains independance will the first government pay compensation to all the oil companys when they "take back their oil"?If so you will need to sell an awful lot of shortbread and wee tartan dolls to cover the cost of that.Or are the oil companys and other investors just supposed to write of any losses ?
#131 Ryan
I'm presuming that the current possibility is for Scotland to depart from England/Wales/NI, rather than for dissolution of the whole kaboosh. It's less cumbersome to refer just to England in discussions, as it is the 1707 Act of Union that is the underlying factor.
As to whether or not separate England ~Scotland would automatically continue membership of EU, I've no idea of the official legal position but, irrespective of that, I imagine that the politicos would devise some form of agreement to the effect that both nations continued their participation as normal. If it required a further vote, they would be fearful that it would result in losing members. If an independent Scotland was in EU but England not (or vice versa), I very much doubt that it would have any material impact on Scotland. The sentiment down here is against political integration with mainland Europe than innate hostility to its peoples - "Love Europe. Hate EU". We voted for a common market and nothing more. Trade between England and others would be maintained, as it is too beneficial to all sides to lose it. That would include trade passing through England between Scotland and elsewhere, as now.
As to Armed Forces, it would of course be for Scotland to decide its own needs but as regards the English Army, I would imagine that any Scot who wishes to stay in/join it would find the situation no different from now. Citizens of RoI can & do serve in the British Army, despite Irish independence. In the same fashion, there are unfettered voting and residence rights in both directions, so that would be a precedent for a future Scottish~English relationship.
There's no reason for any split to be other than amicable. Even if otherwise, would it really be feasible to man the border? A pity though, because then both sides could have benefitted from a tourist attraction such as at the India/Pakistan border, where finely arrayed guards strut their stuff compet
Ken 117, my apologies. I saw a word that ended in D and looked like it was supposed to start with B which cast doubt on my mother's honour.
Too much red mist, not enough humour. Sorry!
To Ian in the USA - I have lived/worked in many countries and that is my experience too. Many English believe that England is a sovereign state. My impression is that Scotland, given independence would survive not just on it's Oil and Whisky but the Scots would then regain their self respect and flourish as never before.
Sorry folks - I might have more faith in the idea of Scottish independence if I didn't think it would lead to the creation of the People's Republic of Scotland lead by Jack "ned" McConnell.There are too many far left socialists and politicians who delude themselves that we can create a Scandinavian style social democracy (or even that a Scandinavian style social democracy is a good thing) knocking around in Scotland for it ever to work.And do you really think that a) The English would simply allow us to keep all the North sea oil revenues, and that b) the oil will still be there in 20 years time?
As has already been pointed out Scotland has a large proportion of the landmass of the UK and only 10% of the population a per head approach to expenditure is therefore absurd.
The argument that Scotland is subsidised is therefore a falsehood however the more it is repeated the more likely Scotland and England will decide to go their seperate ways.
I am pleased England are thinking about independence as well, England now needs an equivalent party to the SNP to officially represent that position.
Wales is also now showing a majority for independence and hopefully they will also vote for that next year.
By the way, unionist numpties like Jack McConnell who lack faith in their own country are an argument for Scottish independence not for retaining the stifling union which they represent.
Hey I don't know what the big deal is about independence all countries are man made as are their institutions and symbols. I think that the future of Scotland should be looked at logically. Although for years the country had little say for the direction it was travelling on, now we have devolution this is a fast changing situation. As it stands devolution is more than adequate for the needs and aspirations of Scotland's people. If the country needs greater autonomy it should be within the confines of the Union. I think in the future fedarlism and a written constitution should not be counted out but independence is a bit dated in a globalised world.
Why have a union with europe when we have more in common with the welsh, english and irish.
John from Hampshire is stupid as well
Well the bloddy hell on England. I'm 1/3 Scotish anyway. I'm on Scotland's side if they break away from Britain then that's fine with me. GO SCOTLAND!!!George Binki Day 30thNovember2006
well if you had any balls you go for it,Scotland go for your right,go for your freedom, be somebody
