scary stuff...these people are loons

I saw Hagee on TV once years ago and thought he was a mental case. I'm shocked to see he is still around. [I confess that I didn't read the full article. It was too scary/embarrassing]

Hey, what if this bunch are right .......we're in deep trouble ......I'm biting my nails already ....maybe I should start on that bunker in the back garden tomorrow. or maybe the day after ....I just love procrastinating.

You bet, it's scary. Even more scary is the fact that these followers of Hagee actually vote the way they are instructed, regardless of reason or consequences. The only good news is that they still represent a small (but vocal) minority of our countrymen. Tuesday, November 7 will be a good test for determining the future direction of the USA.

This is not a subject for laughter. I quote the Gallup organisation, a premier accredited polling body in the US, as of 2004, confirming what is a RISING trend:

"November 19, 2004
Third of Americans Say Evidence Has Supported Darwin's Evolution Theory
Almost half of Americans believe God created humans 10,000 years ago

"Only about a third of Americans believe that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution is a scientific theory that has been well supported by the evidence, while just as many say that it is just one of many theories and has not been supported by the evidence. The rest say they don't know enough to say. Forty-five percent of Americans also believe that God created human beings pretty much in their present form about 10,000 years ago. A third of Americans are biblical literalists who believe that the Bible is the actual word of God and is to be taken literally, word for word."

This is to be found at: http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?CI=14107

Without the earnest good will and hard work of good, knowlegeable, and clear-thinking persons in all parts of the world, we may face another Dark Age. Make no mistake.

Aye,

Steven Horrobin.

Yet again in Western history, with righteous zeal religous "leaders" blaze the trail to predition.

If these are the good guys, I think I'd rather be bad and continue to thank God that I'm an atheist!

Remember that these people are doing their best as are we all. People in poor areas of the United States face harsh destructive experiences that the US is rarely know for (consider the child abuse rates here). While I too look through such fantastic ideas as these we need to act constructively; mocking will only push them down making the issues at hand worse!

#1 Aye.

#8 Are you seriously saying it's only the poor in the US who believe this brainwashing nonsense? Dubya and his oilfield pals aren't poor, are they?

If they really read their bible, they might find the bit about the 10 Commandments.

I believe there is one which states "thou shalt not kill"

Or have the Americans devised an Amendment for that?

Warmongers. Cannibal sheep. Disgusting.

You guy's just don't get it, do you.

I DON'T EXIST!

Now, gie me some peace.

The scariest statistic in the world? Over FIFTY PERCENT of Americans attend church every week -- and fully HALF of those are Evangelists in the mould of Hagee's muppets.

With God himself telling you what to do -- Dubya has said so, remember -- no atrocity is too horrible. It is surely no exaggeration to say that a primary driver behind the Iraq/Afghanistan disaster has been the NeoCons' born-again faith. As well as oil, this has always been about the folk who have the only real God on their shoulder (us) versus the heathen worshippers of a false wannabe upstart deity (them).

When Bosnia erupted in the 1990s, it did so because of enduring hatred and enmity from a past conflict between the regions' religious sectors. A FOUR HUNDRED YEAR OLD grudge.

The west and islam will be suffering the brunt of these evil religious fundamentalist murderers in Washington D.C., supported ably by their fellow zealots in places like Hagee's religious circus, for centuries to come. Well done the Christians, eh?

#-1-5-7-10-12-every country has there own wacko's, yours is no exception. #14--wherever you roam, your not part of the wacko christian right, but your just as dangerous!

Regarding my comment at 5 above, I certainly did not intend it to be a trigger for gratuitous America-bashing. This is not helpful, and ignores the clear fact that the misuse of ignorance by those with dangerous or foolish agendas is rife in many areas of the world. Rather, enlightened Americans, of whom there are very many, need our kind and friendly help, and not further agression, in a Human effort to stem the spread of Dark Age worldviews. This is a universal problem facing humanity, and certainly must not be viewed as being exclusively Christian, or exclusively American. Reactions involving simplistic prejudice and hatred are as bad as whatever it is you hope to criticise, and render you a hypocrite. Please be civil, earnest, and kind.

Aye,

Steven Horrobin

"With God himself telling you what to do -- Dubya has said so, remember -- no atrocity is too horrible. It is surely no exaggeration to say that a primary driver behind the Iraq/Afghanistan disaster has been the NeoCons' born-again faith""

What twaddle you are peddling !!

A supine, decadent Europe panics at evangelical Christians (not all of whom are fundamentalist by any means) while merrily closing eyes to the serious issues you all face from fundamentalists quite ready to kill all Jews, rape women who don't wear the veil and impose Sharia via a caliphate.

Sound like an overstatement! Trust me, it's far less of one than the breathless absurdities fervently held to by most of the posters here.

Lest our European friends think us fools to be led by the Bush: Do remember that he likely never actually won either of the elections that have allowed him to reside in the White House. He's the "Born Again" president in more ways than just his appeal to our wacko religious fringe.

Did any of those biblical prophecies of a mighty struggle between good and evil at Armageddon happen to mention two stolen elections as the actual triggering event?

#16--i agree
#17--well stated.

#18--HEY HUCK--get over it already. how long must you go on like this! such lasting hatred probably isn't good for your health & well being.

Oh, stop peddling BS, Huck. Speaking as someone who voted Democratic for 30 years before the last election, your side lost. Come to grips with it. Gore lost because he is wooden, preachy and lacks vision. Kerry lost because he's a proven idiot whose destructive posturing during / re: Vietnam was a showstopper for many people like myself.

As far as "whacko religious fringe" nonsense, Bush is a Methodist. As is Hillary Clinton.

Get the basic facts right, folks. The Methodists are not exactly the fundamentalist fringe or particularly evangelical for that matter. They never were, not even during John Wesley's days as a student at Oxford University and after his call to preach in the colony of Georgia. Methodism has always been about the inner life of self-examination and holding oneself accountable to high standards of spirituality and behavior. Unlike the Calvinism so eagerly embraced by the Scottish Kirk, by the way, Methodism sees the grace of God as offered to all.

The absolute illiteracy of so many today regarding history and religion is astounding. We can debate policy and social trends -- but that does require beginning with FACTS in order to be useful.

(FWIW, I am not a Protestant Christian at all, fundamentalist or otherwise. I just am familiar with what was and continues to be an important dimension of history and human life. )

#17 - Just because you're not paranoid doesn't necessarily mean that everyone isn't out to get you. Maybe some nasty conspiracy of despicable terrorists is looking over your shoulder right now, in the good old US of A, so don't forget to take a loaded shotgun and a couple of hand grenades with you wherever you go. Trust you? You must be joking!

Hey Sandy, your "I agree/disagree" brand of political "thinking" is wonderfully American, no doubt about it.

True, your memorization of historical factoids offers you an undoubtedly "important dimension of history and human life." But trivia contestants often miss the logical gaps in the strings of useless information they chain together. I do find comfort from the truth in the Scotsman story in your wonderfully simple conclusion though: Bush is a Methodist, so we have nothing to worry about, right?

Agree or disagree, Sandy?

It's not a question of factoids, Huck. It's getting the BASICS right when you make serious accusations.

Or perhaps you think that so long as you FEEL it's probably true, facts don't matter??

Stewart, take a deep breath and calm down. You will be horrified to know that I own guns and can shoot them (and am female). Nevertheless, I don't carry one around and I don't feel the need to do so.

On the other hand, the paranoia towards Christians evidenced in this thread , now THAT is scary. To see people ramping up the adrenaline, throwing out ridiculous accusations they cannot back up with any sort of facts at all, is pathetic.

Huck, I've been around for a good while now. I have more than "useless factoids strung together" on which to base my conclusions.

So far, however, you haven't demonstrated that you have much of anything except mindless blather.

"I have more than ...."

And, fwiw, that "more than" includes decades of experience doing business and working with colleagues in Britain, continental Europe, the Middle East and Asia.

That "more than" includes being able to read & write in several languages in addition to English. One of them is Arabic.

What do you bring to the table when discussing these issues, Huck? Hmmm????? Maybe you have depth of experience in these matters yourself, but so far you haven't demonstrated any.

Quite ironic that people from a continent that is currently being overtaken by a fanatical religion(Islam of course), without objection, should comment on the perceived fanatics of an American religion.

I am amused at best when reading European-slanted articles. Yellow journalism is alive and well in Europe. I would encourage folks to read all sides of any issue, and make an objective decision about the FACTS! Hating the US may be fashionable in Europe, but ignorant. Wake up, stop using trite little phrases, and don't be afraid of reality. No wonder the EU has such a goofy hold on Europe. Such subjectivism. I'm sure I'll get mature comments from this!

This article is shameful. You should find out for yourself, reader.

'these evangelists argue that Israel can do no wrong because their enemies are, by definition, forces of darkness who can be disposed of' - this is completely false.

'mainstream churches worry about the absence in the pastor's fiery sermons of more traditional Christian fare such as forgiveness' - Also completely false. Mr Hagee teaches about forgiveness often. Most recently in today's sermon, which is available at the John Hagee website.

The phrase 'treat its Arab neighbours' is racist towards Arabs. It gives the impression that Israel is some white 'massa' who merely 'treats' Arabs some way. Arabs live, work, and prosper in Israel. They have complete freedom of religion. Israel has a free press. Jews are not even allowed in Saudi Arabia, simply because they are Jews. If an Israeli went to Saudi Arabia they would probably be shot at customs. This is very similar for all muslim nations. What insanity is causing people to accept these things and yet posture over how Israel is 'treating' it's neighbours? All Israel wants to do is exist. All of the Arab hate is directed towards Israel and there is absolutely no good reason for that hate. You should see the 'palestinian' television which manipulates the Arab children into terrorists. Their school maps do not show a state of Israel - they do not want a 2-state solution. The only acceptable outcome for them is that Israel be destroyed. The English had the mandate over the area, and they already made a '2-state solution', by giving 80% of that Mandate to the Arabs. The remaining 20%, tiny sliver of land is Israel today.

There are real truths which you would be wise to find out for yourself, reader!

'the pastor will shortly post instructions, on his website on how parishioners should cast their ballots for the mid-term elections' - another complete and utter untruth. This is just untrue. It's made up!

#28 thomas
If you are reading a newspaper website from a Scottish newspaper, it should come as no surprise that it will have a "European slant" on things. Scotland is in Europe - it's just above England on a map (look at a map and it's beyond the big blue area you'll find east - or to the right as you look at it - of New York).

When you say "yellow" journalism I take you are inferring some kind of cowardice (as opposed to a subversive racist take on the phrase). I fail to see how it is possible for you to realistically compare US news favourably to British (although I concede we are fed some crap here too, unfortunately), as at least we are told things from different viewpoints - even ones may not like or agree with.

Which reality have you been told to believe this week then, thomas?

P.S. Most people I know don't harbour any antiAmerican feelings as such - they just think your president is a tube.

#30 JG - your first statement disproves your last.

You say "don't harbour any antiAmerican feelings as such" - and yet you open your comments with a sarcastic attack on American intelligence. How horribly pompous. It makes me ashamed. I suggest that you need to rethink your position.

#31 Daniel
Read thomas' posting again - I answered his patronising comments with my own sarcastic one. It was deliberate . It wasn't an attack on American intelligence - it was a reproof to HIM.

From Wikipedia:

"Yellow journalism is a pejorative reference to journalism that features scandal-mongering, sensationalism, jingoism or other unethical or unprofessional practices by news media organizations or individual journalists. "

If you are ignorant of a common phrase, you might consider looking it up before attributing ignorance to others.

#32 JG - but what possible part of thomas' post deserved that attack?

amused at best...
European-slanted...
Yellow journalism...
encourage folks to read all sides of any issue...
make an objective decision...
about the facts...
Hating the US may be fashionable but ignorant...
stop using trite little phrases...
don't be afraid of reality...
the EU has such a goofy hold on Europe...
Such subjectivism...
I'm sure I'll get mature comments from this...

There's nothing there that indicated that thomas didn't know where Scotland was. On the contrary! Please consider that there's a wider world out there JG. Many Europeans are projecting on this issue. Wise people consider the possibility of being wrong. Regards,

"I fail to see how it is possible for you to realistically compare US news favourably to British (although I concede we are fed some crap here too, unfortunately), as at least we are told things from different viewpoints - even ones may not like or agree with. "

JG, do you have ANY experience with the US or our media? Do you even READ the online versions of newspapers here that are available to you for free over the Internet?

Good grief, people. I've known for some time that many in the UK and on the continent were ill-informed and parochial, but comment threads like this one make it painfully clear that that is an understatement.

HINT: take is slowly. Try comparing the NY Times with, say the Washington Times. Compare. Contrast.

Then dip into waters that are a tad deeper. Try comparing the position and policy papers on, say, the American Enterprise Institute site with those from the Brookings Institution. Think tanks play a much stronger role in US policy discussion than their counterparts do in Europe.

Compare Time and Newsweek with US News and with the National Review.

I am sorry to say the statement of yours I've quoted above can only proceed from the deepest ignorance. But since those publications are available on the web for free, there is no excuse for you to remain ignorant on a matter you choose to propound upon.

Unless, that is, you are quite comfortable in ignorance.

After reading this article and the many post, the fact of the matter is everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The most bothersome to me is that IF this article is true, Hagee is actually leading a cult. IF his followers are believing every word he is telling them it is very scary for the entire world. Ppl around the world criticize the radical muslims saying they teach and spread hate. Not much differents in the radical muslims and Hagee. Its sad these ppl in Hagees "church" are unable to think for themselves. Kill Arabs???? Heck, the church I went to as a child taught us NOT to kill anyone. What happened to that theory. Perhaps I should start attending services again and see how the crazys like Hagee and Robertson have changed the Bible and which section now says whom it is now ok to kill.

The title should be

IMPRISON BUSH and LEAVE IRAQ

#35 true -

"Try comparing the NY Times with, say the Washington Times. Compare. Contrast"

This is the problem. Living in the UK, it's hard to understand what you mean. You mean you have a variety of opinions in the US? How strange!

The most conservative media outlet in the UK is the "Daily Telegraph", which, when VP Cheney accidentally shot his hunting partner, carried an ecstatic comment column which was revelling in this "blue on blue" incident, just SO happy that a conservative had been shot - it bordered on incitement to murder!

It's our media. There's no choice. It's all approximately BBC (much, much more leftist/liberal than CNN). It's only going to get worse unless we start having some varied media.

There are a lot of people who disagree, but you *really* have to be a free spirit to go against such a tidal wave.

You have to understand about Britain too, that to most British people, freedom is a privilige - something which is given to us, not something which we take as an right.

PRAISE BUSH for KILLING 665,000 IRAQIS

HALLELUJAH.. SICK WHACKOS

#39 Rob, please stick your jingoistic rhetoric where it's warm and dark.

I guess most of us Christians are so-called 'loons'.
We don't believe in killing God's least lambs that are in the womb. We don't believe in same sex marriage.
We know some of our leaders are probably liars, but we know God will judge them a little stronger than he will you and I.

We know God will do what he says he will do. If most of you would truly study his word, you would be thankful that he sent Jesus to die in our place. He doesn't want slaves, so feel free to trash him if you please. I am not afraid of the coming of anything on this earth because I am a child of God and know he has already prepared a place for me.

#33 True
Actually I DID look it up - it doesn't appear in any of the English dictionaries I have at home, then an internet search revealed it was a common phrase coined in America about American neswpapers and unnecessary sensationalism at the turn of 19th/20th century.

Yes, I have SOME experience of US media - obviously I don't read ALL of the American papers, although I have read some (there are many meaningless rags in the US, just as there are here) - and some of the TV news programmes are dreadful. The announcer gives a headline of interest, then you wait in vain for the matter to be pursued. I am sorry to say that we appear to be copying this practice over here now - it's like the McDonalds of news reporting.

I also don't need to "take things slowly" I can read (yes, even the big words), spell properly (without the use of spellchecker) and am more than able to assimilate information and make up my own mind.

#34 Daniel
Of course none of the phrases taken in isolation are offensive! MY interpretation of the comment read as a whole was of being patronised. If that wasn't your feeling then that's fine - maybe I'm just a bit more sensitive. This does not make one of us right and the other wrong, only that we see things differently. Is that not called just having a difference of opinion?

First, let’s dispense with and debunk this fiction of “fear” espoused by the commenter and, implicitly, by the author. The suggestion that if the Christian Right grows larger and more influential (but how without their master, Bush-Rove in the Whitehouse?), America will become a theocracy is ludicrous—so ludicrous that it raises aspersions against the intelligence of those who espouse it. An Ponnurru has written, even if everything—absolutely everything—the CR desires were to come to fruition, it would be scarcely different than the country was in the 1950’s. Was the country a theocracy then? No. Not at all. Yet there was prayer in schools, nativity scenes in town squares, adherence to Christianity seen as a necessary virtue for public office holders, et al. And let’s not forget F.D.R.’s repeated reference to America as a “Christian nation” in many of his wartime speeches. Also, are those who’ve posted equally scared of Blacks for whom churches are often political rallying points and their pulpits oft used to raise money and votes for Democrats? No, of course you aren’t, and the reasons are twofold: 1) The message preached is one you agree with, therefore the methods by which it is delivered do not really matter, and 2) Leftists have a patronizing and racist view of Blacks through which they see them as children, or at least as less capable and advanced. And just as children need fictions to help them learn the proper moral lessons, so do Blacks need the political messages of America’s inherent inequality and the saving grace of the Democratic Party instilled in them in church.
Lastly, it is far less concerning that American liberals have this view of the Christian right, as our situation is not so dire. That the Europeans have it is, for them, practically a death sentence. What this article and the comments show is that it is always easier to be fearful of and denounce that which is not really a threat to alleviate fears of the actual danger. It’s a method

Well and good, JG -- but it would be more impressive if your opinions suggested familiarity with facts. TV news is scarcely the only or even the major source of information for most in the US.

Rosalee, everyone is entitled to their own opinion -- but not their own facts. And opinion that is based on careful examination of actual facts is rather more convincing than blather.

Your comment goes from "IF" to taking for granted that this article is factual and written with anything like an objective point of view. Sloppy, tendentious and condescending.

Let me be plain -- John Hagee is not my cup of tea. But the article above and many of the comments here are thinly sourced or based on little more than ignorance and pretension.

It's not a very pretty combination, nor an impressive or persuasive one.

So do not preach in equality or tolerance—for you do not believe in it. If you did you would resist those forces which are now wresting their foundations away. You believe only in preserving your own miserable lives. Liberty, freedom and the accomplishments of your ancestors are worth nothing. You believe in nothing and will fight for nothing, your only reality is death, which comes for us all. The difference between the secular Left and the Christian Right is that the left with sacrifice anything, indeed, everything, to propitiate death in hopes that their own lives may continue—but for what purpose? clark.griswald@hotmail.com

<i>This does not make one of us right and the other wrong, only that we see things differently. Is that not called just having a difference of opinion?</i>

You're entitled to your own opinion and feelings ... but not your own facts. It's useful to distinguish between those categories.

Daniel, I understand your point about media in the UK. It's even worse in France and Germany, where the state holds an ownership position in many of the media outlets.

It's your societies, do with and in them as you will. But do not expect to toss around ill-grounded, incoherent antiAmerican blather without being challenged on it.

In years past I would just ignore this sort of thing. No longer. I'm fed up with it, as are many many Americans.

#45 true
I have no notion at all of the number of newspapers (especially the decent quality ones) read by Americans in a day but I'll bet more people watch T.V.. I don't doubt that there is more information available in print than is broadcast, but how many people take the trouble to access it? TV may not be the only source of news but the general public are more likely to watch CNN or Fox than sit down with the paper.

#48 true - but I know from experience that you can disagree until your head turns blue. the BBC says stuff, they accept it as fact. *You*get fed up by it? Imagine being immersed in it.

I actually feel like the people are less than totally responsible. Would you blame North Koreans for being the way they are? Of course not, they are lied to - they don't get the real facts. Same same!

All readers of this article, please read post #29, thank you.

With most of Europe being a Godless nation I sure am glad our ancestors left to establish America. My decision to tour Europe is over.....

All speculation, JG. You really don't know -- but you were content to assert

"I fail to see how it is possible for you to realistically compare US news favourably to British (although I concede we are fed some crap here too, unfortunately), as at least we are told things from different viewpoints - even ones may not like or agree with. "

Pfeh. Truly pathetic.

The reality is that Americans are diverse. Some watch news on TV. More are likely to listen to radio of a range of types, from National Public Radio to various talk shows whose quality approximates your Sun newspaper.

But MANY read news online, and not just university educated professionals. The administrative assistants in my office read a variety of news sites and interesting stories get shared around via email.

Shall we turn then to Britain and look at the news familiarity of her citizens? I've spent substantial time in the UK, from the Orkneys down to Cornwall. When I do, I always stay in B&Bs or small inns and I make apoint of chatting up the proprietor or the other staff. It's fair to say that the majority of Brits in England, Scotland or Wales that I've met (ranging from servers in restaurants to senior professionals in the City) are rather less than well informed about current events, and even less informed about differing evaluations of those events, than many Americans I know.

#51 Sylvia - I know that you won't bundle all people in the same basket though.. There are a lot of really great people in Britain. But there has been a 30-year media campaign of demonisation of anything non-socialist, eg. the article above.

Many of us were dismayed at just how fast they caved to the pressure, though..

But yes, touring Europe would not be fun for a non-Bush-hater in 2006

#38--Daniel--did you know the NYTimes, Wash. Post
LATimes, just to mention a few, are losing subscribers daily? MSNBC, CNN, have lost so many viewers to FOX, they've made deep cuts? the news-magazines are doing no better. the American people are on to them, big time! CNN gave aid & comfort to the terrorists by sending a reporter to get a film taken by the terrorists of a sniper killing one of our soldiers. they showed it over & over, & said it was their duty to let the people see what war is about. you know what is so monstrous about all of this? it's all about Pres. Bush, plain & simple. they hate that he won in 2000, & 2004, & they hate that he won't cow-tow to their threats. they will & have used every pathetic way to weaken him, even
putting our soldiers in harms way.

#52 true
From Wikepedia
"A statement of fact or a factual claim is a statement that is presented as an accurate representation of a situation, event, or condition, and that is capable of being either proved or disproved"

You assert that you are presenting truths and that I am merely an ignorant island dweller. How do you know what you are reading is truth and not just another person's interpretation of it? What if they are wrong? What if I am right? (although I haven't really given an opinion about anything yet - I just reacted (OK, maybe overreacted!) to a comment I thought was patronising and chipped back sarcastically!) People I worked with also read information from newspapers, listened to TV, radio and read news items on the internet and I heard them chat about it at tea break or lunchtime.

I have travelled from New York to Phoenix (and many places in between) and I too am quite a chatty person! Very few people knew where Scotland (or Britain - or Sri Lanka) actually was. One woman asked if "people from Scotland spoke English". They had no idea about who some politicians were and knew nothing about what was happening in various parts of the world at that time. So, what conclusion can I draw from that?

True, as with your addiction to trivia, your fascination with employment of the ad hominem fallacy, although an amusing diversion, is tiresome.

Sandy, yes, but it goes even beyond that. Bush is a lot more liberal than, say, Reagan, and he is almost universally loved in America now. The 90's just made the left (tiny minority in America) think that they have some kind of RIGHT to power. Bush represents an unapologetic, ordinary American - that's what they hate, I think. The American people had no illusions about Bush when they elected him in 2004. Any hate directed at Bush is essentially directed at the ordinary Americans who voted for him.

They are going to be so depressed when they don't win the House OR the Senate.

And to the guy who said something about Karl Rove - you should do some proper research about the guy; he is a really genuine, good man. But if you'd rather just have a made-up view, then go ahead.

All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you*

The European left loves to portray American conservatives as a bunch of toothless, Baptist snakehandlers who see the war against Iraq as some sort of crusade.

Those who believe and perpetuate this stereotype are every bit as ignorant as the relatively few fundamentalists they seek to ridicule.

American conservatism is not rooted in Christian fundamentalism; but since the left has never been able to meet its arguments, the ad hominem attack has always served as its proxy. We've always been portrayed as racist, sexist, homophobes. Now, the term "Christian" itself is being used as a perjorative.

I simply love how your readers, most of whom have probably never been employed long enough to vacation beyond the Glasgow city limits, let alone in America, nod their fool heads in approval here, cluck their tongues and shake their heads at American ignorance and stupidity -- and how "dangerous" that makes us.

Given that the America continues to prosper, while European socialism has turned Scotland into a worthless, drug addicted third world slum, perhaps mindless gloating about crazy Christian evangelicals is all you fools have left to do.

Frankly, Americans in general are tired of being criticized by those who have spent the last sixty years of their existence sliding into obscurity. I'd rather get a smile and a "hello" on the street from a Christian evangelical, than a "fook you, where's the wallet" visiting your pathetic, shitty little country, any day.

#56 Huck, a thing cannot be both amusing and tiresome! It looks like you're just throwing random words around trying to look clever, mate!

All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you*

#58 John, I understand your anger, and you have some good points, but you are not helping your cause talking like that. By lumping the whole country into a statement like that, you are no better than the people who hate America. And I'm holding back a sizeable chunk right here.

Daniel hasn't any familiarity with the American tradition of unimaginative amusement? Come spend an NFL weekend with True and his trivia students sometime.

#61 Huck - the unimaginative can be amusing, sure! But the tiresome can not, by definition. Why must you dump on what you perceive as your own country's traditions. Don't think you're on the side of the little guy. The global left is a lot bigger and more manipulative and threatening and imperialistic than America. And just like the cults you fear, it want your mind, body and soul.

All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you*

I seriously wonder why true thinks her opinions are the only facts on here and the rest of us are blathering idiots. If you believe everything you see in print and on TV, that would make you a blathering idiot.
#54 Sandy I seriously advise to not travel outside of the US and watch other news media on TV. I was in Turkey while the Israeli and Lebanon war was going on. Daily they would show many dead ppl in their reports of the war. It was very graphic.

#63 Rosalee, yes, I saw the pictures of dead people too, like the girl who fell of a swing and was portrayed as an Israeli kill, or the ambulance with a 'rocket' hole in the roof, but which was actually a rusty hole where an air inlet used to be, or the whole incident at Qana which was staged, and how the building fell down *8 long hours* after the precision strike on the Hezbollah position which was hidden among civilians, in direct violation of all moral norms. Yes, I saw that too.

All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you*

#63--Rosalee--you missed my point!!!!!!!

Trust me, Daniel, a weekend of NFL statistics, analysis and commentary will give you a much better appreciation of the tiresome "thinking" practices with which True and his trivia devotees exercise their faculties; all in preparation for the "self-governing" processes they pretend to.

Europeans think they have the luxury of denying the lifeless nature of modern American reckoning. Are you familiar with a fine former barrister named Tony Blair who ruined his career by brushing aside the unfortunate truth that America has lost a bit of its defining character, right along with its dictionaries?

#66 Huck - so what if someone wants to do that with their weekend? Is that your business? Why not just leave people do what they want to do, rather than spend your life angry about what other people do? If you, and those like you, did that, America would, I promise you, regain that bit of it's defining character, which you lament.

Your 2nd sentence is sort of like an Escher picture, it doesn't resolve to any kind of sense (sorry but true!). How has Blair ruined his career? By becomeing Prime Minister for 10 years? In Britain, that's pretty good.

All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you*

#55 JG You are correct as far as many American not having a clue about current world events and who their politicians are. Not knowing where Scotland is doesn't completely surprise me either. How sad this is. (and no, I'm not being sarcastic) One of my favorite questions to ask ppl who claim to be the God fearing christians is, "Where is Babylon?" Most ppl have no clue it is in Iraq.

#57--Daniel--two well used quotes that make me nuts by some posters, in this paper.
"i like the American people, i just don't like Pres. Bush". or "i support the troops but i'm against the war." chilling the # of posters in these stories that are anti-Israel, anti-America & anti-Christian.

read # 29--thanks

#68 Rosalee - ancient Babylon was in present-day Iraq, sure. But why do you present yourself in such a spiteful way like that? I'm finding that American liberals are *more* spiteful than ours here. Most Americans I speak to are very up to date on the world, and the rest; it's their business what they are interested in. It's like "why should everyone be interested in the same things that I am".

An alien thought to the leftist/liberal mindset, perhaps - related as it is to personal freedom of thought.

All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you*

It's good, Daniel, that you are pleased with Blair's ten years; but the fine prime minister might have liked a few more -- and to not have had his name associated in history books with the failed policy of Zionism.

It was Sir Cedric someone who likened the PM/Presidential relationship to "monkey and organ grinder," if I remember right?

#71--you are pathetic---

no 52:
"The reality is that Americans are diverse. Some watch news on TV. More are likely to listen to radio of a range of types, from National Public Radio to various talk shows whose quality approximates your Sun newspaper."

Yeah, but let's face it - 47 varieties of pish is still pish, eh?

"Shall we turn then to Britain and look at the news familiarity of her citizens? I've spent substantial time in the UK, from the Orkneys down to Cornwall. When I do, I always stay in B&Bs or small inns and I make apoint of chatting up the proprietor or the other staff. It's fair to say that the majority of Brits in England, Scotland or Wales that I've met (ranging from servers in restaurants to senior professionals in the City) are rather less than well informed about current events, and even less informed about differing evaluations of those events, than many Americans I know."

Well, I have been here 15 years, and I find that exactly the opposite is true. Americans are less well-informed and less analytical than folks in the UK and Europeans in general; add to that their conviction that the US is the centre, beginning and (probably, unfortunately) end of the flaming universe...

Oh come now, Sandy, I was just trying to create some interest in your's and Daniel's desire to have us reread post # 29.

#69 Sandy - yes, chilling it is.

Most people didn't originally think like that, but it's become like the muslim culture - the extremists are the minority, but because everyone else is afraid of them, they control the culture, and it becomes culturally unacceptable to disagree with them.

The extreme left (which is growing) here will see to it that you are excluded from society and demonised if you don't agree with them

It's no different than the NYT etc., but here, there's almost no spirit to say "I disagree, I'm going to be different". And there's *no* alternative to liberal media, that's the key.

All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you*

"How do you know what you are reading is truth and not just another person's interpretation of it? What if they are wrong? What if I am right?"

"I seriously wonder why true thinks her opinions are the only facts on here and the rest of us are blathering idiots. If you believe everything you see in print and on TV, that would make you a blathering idiot. "

Indeed. Which is why I don't.

As I mentioned above, my opinions on a lot of world issues are formed by over 30 years' professional experience, including extensive travel and doing business on most continents around the world.

For instance, I have an opinion on France's characteristic central regulation of businesses and its impact on their economy because a) I have a graduate degree in business and economics, but also because that opinion is informed by b) doing business in France, including opening a new branch of our smallish high technology company there.

I have opinions about current events in the Middle East that are informed, among other things, by personal experience there over the course of a decade.

But always I look to challenge my opinions against the most credibly gathered and presented facts I can find. Let me illustrate an example of NOT doing that.

In 39 above, Rob asserts Bush killed 665,000 Iraqis. One presumes he is referring to the article that came out in the Lancet recently, which was a rehash of a previous article from a while ago.

The issue of casualties in a war is a serious one. It deserves far better treatment than the Lancet article gave -- and frankly, its publication in what is called Britain's most prestigious medical journal is a disgrace to you all.

Not because of its conclusions -- if those conclusions were well founded. But because even those with a basic knowledge of statistics and data analysis see several fundamental problems with the way the data were 'collected' and analyzed. The 'collection'

#70 Daniel I'm not spiteful in any way. I was just making my point that many americans don't know what the current events of the world are or world geography. Your assumption of me being a liberal is not true at all.
After reading your comment back to me in thread #70, I truly wonder if you believe the Israeli air strike on the UN outpost was just a complete accident. Or, did Hezbolla stage that also? I'm in no way saying either actions of Hezbolla or Israel were right.

Now, I have no idea how many people have died in Iraq over the last 5 years. Nor, of those deaths, how many were 'normal' attrition for the population, given its age distribution, health care and other factors prior to March 2003, and how many due to insurgents and/or revenge killings among Sunni arabs, Shia arabs and Kurds.

NOR DOES THIS REPORT.

Therefore, EVEN IF its data had been collected in anything like a scientifically sound manner, the reported death rate that Rob tossed out is simply not credibly established by the Lancet article. Freshmen maths students who study basic descriptive statistics know that a huge standard deviation, and a very wide margin of error, essentially mean that there are no solid conclusions one can draw from the data at hand.

This, good people, is an example of evaluating a claim in objective ways. It can and SHOULD be done when we read what others write, in any venue.

We can also seek out people with a reputation both for knowledge and for objectivity on a topic and listen to what they assert. And then critically examine their arguments, see if they can and will point to the raw underlying data on which they base their arguments, and learn what we can about how the data were gathered and analyzed.

Mushy thinking, "it's all true if someone believes it to be" and "every opinion must be respected" are the signs of sloppy and lazy thinking --

whether done by religious people or by seculars.

#73 ex-pat - if you think so low of Americans, you should come back, hypocrite. Or you like the hard-earned American prosperity too much? You say Americans are "47 varieties of pish" - they should throw you out - not wait for you to leave. "Less analytical"? You'll be telling us about the benefits of eugenics, and "the superior aryan european mind" next.

#71 Huck - no surprise, the liberal is anti-Jew too. As you well know, zionism is simply the idea that the Jews should be allowed to live in that land. If you are against 'zionism' you are for the destruction of the state of Israel. I must say I'm not surprised.

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All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you!*

"I truly wonder if you believe the Israeli air strike on the UN outpost was just a complete accident."

The senior Canadian commander at that outpost stated for the record that Hezb'allah had set up posts and was firing on the Israelis from right next to the UN post. He requested permission to withdraw the UN forces and was denied it. In other words, the Israelis were put in a position of either absorbing casualties without response or of firing on those who fired on them first.

Ref, among other places, the Ottowa Citizen 27 July 2006 http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37...

an excerpt:

"The words of a Canadian United Nations observer written just days before he was killed in an Israeli bombing of a UN post in Lebanon are evidence Hezbollah was using the post as a "shield" to fire rockets into Israel, says a former UN commander in Bosnia.

Those words, written in an e-mail dated just nine days ago, offer a possible explanation as to why the post -- which according to UN officials was clearly marked and known to Israeli forces -- was hit by Israel on Tuesday night, said retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie yesterday.

The strike hit the UN observation post in the southern Lebanese village of El Khiam, killing Canadian Maj. Paeta Hess-von Kruedener and three others serving as unarmed UN military observers in the area.

Just last week, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener wrote an e-mail about his experiences after nine months in the area, words Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie said are an obvious allusion to Hezbollah tactics.

"What I can tell you is this," he wrote in an e-mail to CTV dated July 18. "We have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both (Israeli) artillery and aerial bombing.

"The

Lost a little of your false "UK" cover there didn't you Daniel, with the "come back, hypocrite" line; and likewise with your attempts to hide the Zionism issue.

Which brings us back to where the article began: "Centre stage, two camouflaged figures embrace, one dressed as an Israeli soldier complete with machine gun, the other his US army counterpart."

Fortunately, the European Press still tells us the truth.

#77 Rosalee - The 'spiteful' point first. You say "one of my favorite questions to ask ppl who claim to be the God fearing christians is, "Where is Babylon?" Most ppl have no clue it is in Iraq." - well that is just basically spiteful. It's just a wrong mindset. See, a Christian would see you and think "I wonder how they're doing?", not "how can I show her up to be scum?"

OK, now the Israel-Hezbollah war. So now I've demolished the "attacks on civilians" idea you come to the UN position. I'm not as totally up on that one. But the UN has set itself up as the enemy of Israel, which is *absolutely outrageous*. This is supposed to be a body for the promotion of peace, but it is totally partisan, and constantly against the state of Israel. This eliminates *ALL* legitimacy it ever had. When Kofi Annan recently went to Israel, he asked them for "an assurance that they wouldn't attack Iran, even if provoked", which is an outrageous thing to ask, essentially asking that they give up their right to self-defense, when the Iranian president has called for Israel to be wiped off the map, and is going for the nuclear weapons to get the job done. Naturally, the Israelis turned down this request, and Kofi went on his merry way to Iran. The instance his plane left the tarmac, the UN put out a statement condemning Israel for fighting hard against Hezbollah in the final days of that war. So Kofi waited until he had tried to steal some outrageous concessions from Israel until they put out their latest 'condemnation'. By the way, Hezbollah also knew that a cessation was coming, and sent many hundreds more (nuts-and-bolts-packed-to-kill-as-many-civilians-as-possible) rockets in the final days. Did the UN condemn that? No. The UN has set itself up as a partisan, and has lost any credibility that it might have had. It is essentially an active participant in the war against Israel. The positions such as that which of which

#77--Rosalee--your post wasn't directed to me, but if i may ask you why this statement & question,
"i truly wonder if you believe the Israeli air strike on the UN out post was just a complete accident. or, did Hezbollah stage that also?", was put to #70-Daniel? for nothing in his post #70 ( except read post # 29) mentions this.

That's funny "Huck", because I wonder about your "USA" cover.

All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you!*

As a point of interest, and to make things perfectly clear, I was born in the US and now live in the UK.

47 varieties of pish = US "news" media (even NPR has lost credibility)

My observations stand (with some obvious exceptions, eh?).

#85 ex-pat I see - slight crossed wires I apologise. I thought "ex-pat" was a purely British term. It's not half as bad as I thought then. But still..

--

All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you!*

feel the love... (shudder!)

Daniel:

In criticizing Europe in general and Scotland in particular, I held back quite a bit as well.

The fact is, America and Americans are routinely portrayed as dangerous idiots by the European left, which includes Scotland as far as I'm concerned. The prevailing continental view of America is nothing but a strange brew of old Soviet and Nazi stereotypes, whitewashed with socialist dogma and good old racism and xenophobia.

Perhaps it is you, not us, who are ignorant about the world situation today. Anybody who could draw a parallel between American evangelical Christianity and militant Islam certainly is missing something -- beginning with the premise that evangelical leaders aren't ordering their faithful to go forth and kill infidels.

I happen to be Roman Catholic, Jesuit educated; but not practicing. I don't consider myself religious, and am socially liberal except when it comes to our national defense and the challenge of what I call Islamic militarism.

In other words, I have nothing to do with evangelical Christians. Still, I'm tired of watching these people -- most of whom are decent folks, as far as I can see -- being trashed by articles like this one. The idea that American Christians are either ignorant or slavishly wedded to some Biblical apocalyptic prophecy is nonsense. Comparing them to Islamic militarists is pure lunacy of the same caliber that led Europeans to call appeasers like Chamberlain "warmongers" before World War II.

Twits like Mr. Stephen and the sycophants so eager to write in here and damn anything American ought to read some Orwell or better yet Christopher Hitchens. Both quite ably dispense with the argument that the Ugly American, though guilty of many other things, has ever been the threat to world peace that its enemies claim.

If America is such a hateful place, why is there a wave of people leaving places like Canads, England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland and moving to

ex-pat - I still think you're being unfair to characterise American issue-awareness like that. America is a much larger place than any European country - there's a lot to learn in terms of the states and the geography of America, and the continental US - it's also much easier for it to be a self-contained world. And bottom line, it's about how secure you feel about yourself. What a lot of Europeans can't stand is that Americans feel so secure that they often essentially ignore them. "you don't know who is the top politicians in Scotland!!! how dare you!!!" THAT's the real issue here. Attacks on "intelligence" and "education" when it really just comes down to the same old envy.

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All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you!*

Perhaps Daniel isn't the one to whom my comments were directed.

#88 John - I appeciate all of that, but please draw the line at what you said in your final sentence of your last post. I know you will, if your upbringing is as you say. There's no need to have a heart of "stay away from evangelicals" though. We would be a lot more effective together than apart my friend.

A huge number of people are leaving London and other cities to move to Scotland, actually. And there's some lovely people in Scotland too. Like America, there's a lot of country, and little town.

It's all about individuals - not lumping everyone together, THAT's the point.

--

All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you!*

i read hagee's recent book, "jerusalem countdown." it is accurate to say he is very pro-israel and that he believes anyone who is against israel is against god. not my cup of tea. but the parishoners quoted in the article, the ones that say they will vote for whomever hagee tells them to, i think that part of the article is false. people just don't say stuff like that.

to-- Daniel (UK) & John (Cleveland)-- DITTO'S--
& good evening.

deb - "not your cup of tea"?!! has this British phrase made it to Florida? excellent!

If you read the book, then you know that to say that who is against Israel is against God is not the same as carte blanche.

You're totally right though - people just don't say stuff like that. Ugh, It's so Reuters!

hi daniel, the only thing that interested me about hagee's book was his prediction that russia and iran would form an alliance and eventually attack israel. he calls it "ezekiel's war" and says it is foretold in ezekiel chapters 38 and 39. but as for the rest of the book, it is pretty standard american christian fundamentalist stuff. but i know a lot of christians, and they are not the kind of mind-numbed robots this article portrays them to be.

It amuses me that Huck, who so prides himself on not bothering with trivia, still fails to realize that I've identified myself as a woman.

"America is a much larger place than any European country "

Both larger and significantly more diverse.

Approximately 4800 kilometers wide, east to west. 2500 km north to south. Climates ranging from the cold of the northern prairies to the sub-tropical warmth of Florida. Environments from the north eastern woodlands to the fertile river valleys to the vast central plains, the Appalachians, the vast central farmland areas, the southwestern deserts, the great Rocky mountains, the western mountain chains (Sierras, Cascades), the fertile central valley of California, the coastlands, the Pacific Northwest.

Culturally, far more diverse than any European country I've visited, while also sharing a strong common identity. In the small town I grew up in (Pennsylvania in the 1950s), my friends nearly all spoke a second language at home, at least to some degree. German, Polish, Russian/Ukrainian, Italian, Japanese, Spanish, some French, a few Chinese. Later, more Koreans, Vietnamese, Cambodians. Welsh who immigrated at the beginning of the century from Snowdonia. Others as well.

It's true that many Americans don't travel on a passport. Until recently, we didn't need one to go to Mexico, Canada, the Bahamas, Bermuda or most places in the Carribean. I have bluecollar relatives who visited several of those places decades ago, as do many others from the States.

But another factor is that Americans often relocate within the country. I've lived in Pennsylvania, Virginia, Maryland, North Carolina, Colorado, southern California, northern California (another place altogether) and Ohio and now am in New York. There are regional differences aplenty between those places.

No, I don't think the universe starts, ends or is centered on the US. But neither do I feel any need to apologiz

Deb - I think your right, evangelical christians are extreme alright - extremely nice people! And if true, that would make many of the comments in this article horribly closed-minded.

With regards to Ezekiel 38-39 - you would think it was written last month! Russia built the Iranian nuclear power stations which are producing the uranium, and provided the air-defence system that makes it less-than-trivial to remove them. An entire division of the Russian army is in Lebanon right now - "no' a lo' of people know that"

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All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you!*

daniel, i read that russian engineers are in lebanon, but i didn't hear about any other troops. russia did supply hezbollah with signals intelligence that gave them a real-time edge against israeli operations. hezbollah being a proxy for iran, one could interpret this as a form of joint ops between russia and iran. which is new, as they have apparently never been allies before. ever. so while i am not much impressed with hagee's stuff about the christian "rapture" i am interested to see his "ezekiel's war" pans out.

woops. that should read: "to see WHETHER his "ezekiel's war" pans out. sorry.

Whether due to Biblical prophecy or just to the geopolitics of their locations and their alliances, Iran and Russia are both very actively bolstering Hezb'allah's military strength and capabilities. And they are doing it while the UN chooses not to see.

Russia is there on its own, NOT as part of UNIFIL, by the way.

true: with a rapidly declining population, rampant corruption, social pathologies, and a poor economy, russia is heading for third world status. except that they seem to be hitching a ride on the rising tide of islamism. allying themselves with iran is a very good geopolitical move for them. it provides a huge market, throws a sop to russia's own restive muslims, provides access to a very strategic portion of the globe (straits of hormuz), and is a huge thorn in the usa's side. it's all good as far as russia is concerned.

deb - it's not quite like that with Russia - with the rising energy prices, they are doing rather well - and recently paid off half of their national debt early as a consequence (which was $20bn - an infinitesimal fraction of the scary US debt, but there it is). Declining population, but no more so than other European indigenous populations, and Russia doesn't have a fraction of the dangerous immigrant issues that western Europe has.

Yes, there is a large military force "protecting the engineers". And it's the chechens - so Russia gets rid of them to boot, probably because they double as insurgents

If the Bible's right about this (and there's a lot of other things too), perhaps it's worth considering whether it's right about other things!

It's my bed time! Regards,

--

All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you!*

Maybe if we ask the Scotsman nicely, we CAN get this forum renamed The True Pages.

He's been everywhere, met everyone, read every newspaper known to man in more languages than the rest of us have heard of -- but he still talks one-eyed nonsense.

AND he thinks 'The Orkneys' is a place. Pillock. Go to Orkney or Shetland and call their homelands 'the Orkneys' or 'the Shetlands', and watch their faces purses at your ignorance. It is 'Orkney', or 'the Orkney Islands'.

Next he'll be calling us Scotch.

The purported notion that the American media is a beacon of fair play and broad-ranging treatment of the news is so patently ridiculous. Where else in the world can the president get away with holding a handful of fake press conferences a year, events where America's most respected 'journalists' queue up to ask pre-approved questions that never, but never, take the chance of offending the Great One in case maybe they'll have that plum front row seat taken away from them when the president next deigns to turn up and spout pre-rehearsed nonsense free of the worry of being pulled up.

Where was the might press when Dumbya repeatedly, time after time, linked Iraq and Al Quaeda and Iraq and world terrorism and Iraq and WMDs and Iraq and 9/11 in the same (often mangled and incoherent) phrases? Where were they to ask him just what in hell's name was he doing trying to make them all believe that these things were related? Nowhere. Nor did they go back to the office and write the truth -- that their president was talking fudge, lying through his teeth to the people, talking them (and Tony B.Liar) into a hideous transgression that was the invasion of Iraq.

Sure, there are publications and websites trying to maintain the truth, but they face an uphill battle when all the TV media and all the mainstream printed press tow the party line and avoid, at all costs, questioning the wisdom of a serial liar, unrepentant former drunk and drug addict, draf

The mopst frightening part is that these people are allowed to vot. There shouldbe an intelligence test before access to a ballot box.

Don #104 -- I hope that one doesn't catch on in the UK, where studies have shown that something like 30% of adults have the reading age of an intelligent 9-year-old. a statistic pretty well borne-out by the dreadful quality of the daily dumbed-down red-top tabloids.

Mind you, in the defense of the normally indefensible UK tabloids, they are NOT afraid of taking on a government or its Prime Minister when they think he's talking that brown stuff. Unlike elsewhere in the world, where 'the office' makes a national leader untouchable.

true
I would suggest that the fact you have a degree in business and economics (which I don't) may well make you more competent than I am to opine on those subjects. The knowledge you have in those spheres could be taken as "facts". Anything else is merely based on something you've read (from whatever source) and therefore becomes opinion. You are, of course, entitled to it but it is no more valid than my opinion is - or any of the other views expressed here.

#103--ron--calm down, girl---your much to hard on yourself--you REALLY believe your a "serial liar"???

What about the fact that a lot of Godbotherers are disgusted with the Republicans because of the Mark Foley 'page' scandal? This story doesn't include that recent development, but Fuhrer Bush still does have a lot of followers (aka deluded sheep) amongst the Godbotherer contingent, of which he IS one. It's scary.

Sandy #107 -- feel free to participate, honestly, but you might get more of a coherent response if you:

(1) actually read the posts you reply to

(2) ask an adult to explain them to you if they are a little beyond your comprehension

(3) go back to school to acquire some fundamental punctuation skills.

Apart from the above, your post was a breath of fresh air and enlightenment. Did you perhaps go to the same schools as your drug addict president?

FYI

Jimmy Carter was 1st modern president who identified himself as "born again"

President Bush is an intelligent and educated individual. It is easy to identify him as stupid and it is truely underestimating his abilities. and more people voted for President Bush in 2004 than any other president in the history of the U.S.... and he had a significantly higher percentage than Clinton ever achieved.... so do not expect to get a "pass" on insulting the leader of a nation by saying its Bush we don't like... i have voted in every election local, regional, state, national since i was 18 years of age... i am now one of those "9/11" Republicans

a significant aspect of Christianity is the value of the individual believer, free will, and their personal responsibility to account for their own choices... i know there are those who are lazy and allow others to do their thinking for them but the members of churches in southern California are highly educated and professional men and women who discuss, consider and decide for themselves how and who they will elect for office... no one follows you into the voting booth... and any assumption of a 'group' vote doesn't hold in this country... there are several usually automatic Democratic voters who want leaders who will address the world issues directly and less appeasement... Americans grow weary of being the ATM of countries that take our money and aid in crisis but are anti American in policy... as Germany discovered at the pending loss of our military bases in their economy... some want America to become isolationist in foreign policy and withdraw from all issues once again.

it appears the the report "cherry picked" those quoted...it doesn't ring authentic to me although i do know a lot of Christians intentionally respond in a stereotypical way to interviews/polls to confirm the media protrayal of all Christians as ignorant, uneducated, unthinking cultists<

If they want to move toward Armagedon, then they need to promote peace and security. The bible says you will hear the cry "peace and security and then the end will come." I hope people know that just because we have some people that think like this, that not all of us think this way. There is quite a few people here that believe that we need to promote peace and welfare around the world. Our country use to spend time helping people around the world not fighting with them. Also you can be a christian and not be a republican. There is a saying that every man is a brother no matter his color or race. I know that not every person thinks this way and will try and cause problems. But I can do my part to do this. I'm just one. But if another does his or her part, and another, soon you can make a difference.

I have seen many posts on these forums from Americans especially giving us their enlightened opinions of Islam and its crazy wacky ways. They were unable to distinguish between the fanatics of Islam and the true believers of a religious faith. Now here we are with a prime example of wacky Christian fanatics shouting the same threatening rhetoric that Iran was severly critised for and all we are getting from the same people are excuses and explanations as to the difference between them and us and not all christians should be tarred with the same brush etc etc etc.
You people are taking hypocracy to new levels.

110 Lee
The significant difference between Christianity and Islam is:
'Christ offers his blood as sacrifice'

Muhammed offers your blood/head as sacrifice

Correct me if I am wrong but are you suggesting that GWB should sacrifice himself in Iraq to prove his Christian belief and not his armed forces blood/heads which will only prove he is really a follower of Islam.

#110 Lee
"President Bush is an intelligent and educated individual"

Could you please try to evidence THAT!!!! There isn't much evidence in his speeches, interviews or (probably worst of all) any times he's asked a question without the answer being rehearsed. I have no problem at all with people going to church or believing in God (whatever gets you through) but a sensible person surely wouldn't invade a country because "God told him to".

"a significant aspect of Christianity is the value of the individual believer, free will, and their personal responsibility to account for their own choices"

That'll be apart from the teacher quoted in the article above, then!!! If he is going to follow this pastor's instructions chances are so will everyone else. I do understand the fear of future Al Qaeda activities (it worries me too!) but I would prefer to have our people in power react logically and in a considered fashion, not respond to rantings of some idiot whose motives are from altruistic (how much does this man make a year? The article suggests $1m!!).

I have never feared Islamic fundamentalism I have never feared the Soviet bloc I have never feared the so called aithiest communist hordes which were going to conquer all before them.
I have always feared my own government irrespective as to which administration had the reins of power at the time because that government had absolute and total power over my life my life style my quality and standard of life.
All of these so called foreign threats to our so called way of life is absolutely nothing compared to the threat our own governments pose to our freedoms our quality and our standards of life.
I have never lived under a benevolent administration in my life. Every single one of them has found excuses to increase my tax burden, restrict my movements, censor my entertainments, taken every opertunity to control my way of life.
If more people started looking closer to home for the problems in their lives instead of looking to blame events abroad we would all have less conflicts to worry about and more control over the real issues in our lives.

#109--Ron--just thought i'd inject a little levity in response to an incoherent post.

#116--Mike--i, as a true "conservative Republican" will surprise you,i agree w/you, with one exception.
i am very afraid of any foreign threat to our country, & i believe on 9/11/01 not only the USA, but the entire world would be at war with "radical islamic jihadists". the actual threat came in the late 70's, but not one US President since realized it. this war is all about religon & our way of life. the "radical islamic jihadists-terrorists" do not like any religon but theirs & certainly don't like our way of life & want all to be muslim. they are, i believe on their way to achieving just that in Europe, for i'm afraid "apathy" has taken over there.
i believe every citizen of every country has the right & responsibility to help change what they don't like about the way their country is managed. we did that here in 2000, for if we hadn't our economy would be in the toilet & the terrorists would have gotten their way under algore. so if you believe that your government is a threat to your freedom, quality & standard of life, stop complaining & do something about it.

#110--Lee--well done!!

Sandy 118

The islamic Jihadists are the new boogy man threat to replace the Sino communist hordes and the Soviet bloc threat of previous decades. They exist for one purpose only to keep you diverted from your home grown problems.
GWB has done nothing but stir up anti Islamic fear by criminally provoking Islamic nations all over the world with rhetoric threats and physical violence.
This so called war on terrorism didnt start on 9/11 it goes back to the dawn of time.
Some of the greatest names in history have been designated terrorists by various countries and regimes including the like of George Washington, Paul Revier (excuse the spelling again) John Paul Jones, Nelson Mandela, Ghandi, William Wallace, Robert Bruce and my all time favorite anti Roman terrorist himself Jesus Christ.
Your country declared war on Osama Bin Laden and Al Queada by its foreign policies especially in the middle east and he responded by declaring war back.
And lets never forget the USAs support and arming of Al Queada and the Taliban when they were committing 'terrorist' acts against Russian soldiers in Afganistan. Does that sound familiar?

Sandy
You support lees statement at 110 maybe you can answer my question posted at 114

#121--Mike---"correct me if i'm wrong, but are you suggesting that Pres. Bush should sacrifice himself in Iraq to prove his Christian belief & not his Armed Forces blood/heads which will only prove he is a follower of Islam"
i don't believe #110-Lee-even came close to saying that. where is this coming from?

#120--Mike--i absolutely accept the fact that we have made mistakes in the past, but as a Christian Nation, we recognize our mistakes & then proceed to correct them. the "radical islamic jihadists", in their minds, don't make mistakes for they believe that everyone who doesn't believe in Islam should die. OBL & AQ didnt declare war on us because of our foreign policies, they have murdered thousands
in the west because of our religion & way of life. they believe we are a decadent society that should conform to Islam. they're getting a rude awakening!!

My god Sandy some of your comments are incredibly unbelievable. What was the last mistake made by your government that has since been corrected?
Since when was Saddam Hussain ever designated a radical Islamic Jihadist.
And how many times has the USA supported these self same Islamic Jihadists when it suited them?
GWB and co have murdered many more thousands than OBL and Saddam Hussain put together and they will never be brought to trial because of people who think the way you do.

And Sandy lee stated in 110

The difference between Christianity and Islam is:
Quote
Christ offers his blood as sacrifice and
Mohammed offers your Blood/head as sacrifice

Now which of these two statements comes closest to describing the actions of GWB over the Iraq war
self sacrifice or proxy sacrifice.
I havent seen any evidence so far of self sacrifice but I have seen plenty of proxy sacrifice by the coalition of the willing.
Therefore GWB appears to be following the teachings of Mohammed unless Lee is talking a load of Shite. So which is it you are agreeing with?

GWB offered 100 blood sacrifices this month alone!

You know what, religion has been twisted to meet the goals of a simple few so often throughout history, why is this getting everyone's goat? It's the course of human nature. Jihads, Crusades, Inquisitions, it's all the same crap.

The west is just having it's turn at empire building, although this is economic in nature. Just like the British, French, Turks, Romans and Greeks all did. Give it time. In a hundred years or so, it'll be Asia's powerhouses that will dominate the world, probably starting with the new economical juggernaut - China. Hey Mao, hook me up with some of those funky duds!

If that pastor is actually spouting off political advice and sponsoring a particular party/candidate/whatever.. they should legally lose their tax-exempt status..

Other churches have been warned not to offer political advice or risk losing this..

It would be interesting to see whether or not they still qualify for that.

If you will consider that the stated mission of the Islamic radicals is to wipe Israel off the map and either convert or kill all nonbelievers you might reconsider some of your statements.

128 dilligas

Who cares what Islamic radicals say its what they do that counts
and all I have ever seen them do is to respond to violence with violence rhetoric with rhetoric.
There seems to be a large portion of the US public that believes all of their troubles started on 9/11 and that the world was a la la land of peace and prosperity prior to then.
You are not the victims of this so called war on terrorism you as a nation are part of the overall problem that breeds the present form of terrorism.
Dont be so shocked and surprised if the terrorism you have helped to create turns around and bites your hand while you are feeding it.

Mike- here is one mistake we rightly corrected.

Remember how America could not believe that Hitler could be killing so many human biengs - and failed to act quickly to defeat him. Remember how WW2 took millions of lives. I ask because reading your writings - you seem to have an issue with history and the lessons it provides. I think our response to 09/11 should point out that we learned from that little mistake. No more will we sit idly and accept Facsism of any type - included the Islamic variety. Go ahead and complain now - you'll thank us later.

With regards to the article on evangelical
Christians. The article is very obviously overstating the "blind following" aspect. While most all American Christians read the same Bible that Pastor Hagee does - I doubt very seriously that he will be telling people who to vote for.

To those of you that actually "believe" that Christian fundamentalist can be compared with Islamic fundamentalist - you should educate yourselves. Try actually reading the Bible and the Quran - then judge for yourselves whom you shall fear.

Yeah right Mike - go ahead and run out your tired old rhetoric about America being the bad guy in the world. Furthermore, who do you think you are that you that you are so bold as to make a statement about how a "large portion of the US public" is so misguided in your view. I guess the backward thinking US could learn alot from our friends in Edinburgh whom are better suited to understand the world ???

I am quite sure most misguided Americans know much better than you when and where our current problems began. The current problems are what they are because Jimmy Carter decided that he would let Iran off the hook for that little American Embassy and hostage thing in Tehran back in 1979 with no retort. Make no mistake Mike - you sit in Scotland because we first hepled Europe to defeat Nazi Germany - and then for 50 years held the Soviet Union from gobbling you up.

In closing, the U.S. has stood for freedom and the progress of mankind since our birth. My grandfather fought alongside Europeans to defeat a monsterous regime that would have destroyed and conquered all of Europe. We have come to the aid of many peoples in the world while other nations looked the other way. It's just hilarious when I read that we just want to kill Muslims and conquer the world. Case in point for you Mike. Remember the campaign against Milosovic to stop the killing of Muslims - who led the way ? Also, if we so wanted to dominate the world - why has Cuba remained the tiny little communist outpost just 80 miles of our shore. Wouldt Cuba make a great 51st state right in the middle of the Carribean ? Grow up Mike - anarchy does not work !

130 James

I thought the US led coalitions response to 9/11 was to invade Iraq and the reason given was to prevent the use of WMDs by Iraq on the west and Israel.
This is the first time I have heard that Iraq is all about lessons learned from WW2.
Just add it to the list of excuses the US has come up with so far to avoid the real truth behind the invasion

I dont have to read either book to see the difference between Islamic fundamentalists and Christian fundamentalists.

There simply isnt one.

#114 & #120 Mike

i was making reference to the basic framework of religious belief... where in one instance the leader/rabbi offers himself as a sacrifice to bring you to salvation...in the other the leader/prophet offers you as the sacrifice if you do not accept his salvation.

this is a significant pradigm difference if you care to consider it instead of going off onto a tangent

2nd point: perhaps if you were to actually listen to and read some of the interviews done with President Bush with a variety of individuals...not canned speeches. The man graduated from Yale and Harvard... with a higher GPA than John Kerry by the way... and he qualified as a fighter jet pilot... a stupid individual is not allowed to fly the machine...

i stated that i found the quotes in the article odd and inauthentic in many ways... i assure you that it is not an honest representation of the majority of the Christian churches in America... actually, i think only a third of the so called "Christian Right" is even politically involved...most are more libertarian in attitude that they really want the government to leave them alone and do not legislate from the court benches... or they will come out and vote to protect what is important to them.

my greater concern is that this is a different circumstance... the war on terror is NOT a 'new' boogeyman to distract the masses from problems at home... our economy is alive and well... unemployment is at an all time low... we live very well in America with opportunities available if one is willing to work for it. Did you know in America if a child graduates with a high school diploma, reaches the age of 21 yrs. without a child, no drug problem and no criminal issues 83% will NEVER live in poverty in the U.S.A. that is an incredible statistic and opportunity.

the bombing in Spain, England, Egypt, Bali... these are targets that include people of all faiths who do not meet the extremists definit

Irregardless of the hateful ramblings of 'John' and the self proclaiming superiority of 'True', Americans are by and large 'as dumb as a plug'. This observation comes with the experience of living in the US for over thirty five years. We have a very narrow band view of the world which is exacerbated by our very parocial education. Our continuing education comes mainly from the propaganda expoused by our very inept tv media and equally poor newpaper media. We are constantly fed the garbage that the universe revolves around us and we are always right and everyone else is envious of our success. Even though we rank below most developed countries in almost every category we are conditioned to believe we are the only free nation and everyone else is inferior. Anyone who disputes that will be severly maligned, especially Europeans. Maybe that is why we do not find it difficult to be in Iraq killing so many thousands of Iraqius

In reality, deep down Americans feel inferior to Europeans, especially when it comes to culture, education, and the finer things of life. 'True' and 'John' can relate to that. Their inferiority complex manifests itself in their attempts at superiority and derogatory verbige.

What makes America so dangerous is when you couple this 'dumbness' with the radical 'kill for Christ'
teachings of the Evangelical right. The solution to every problem is to take up arms and go to war.

Any country that drops nuclear bombs on another country is very dangerous and will sometime in the future have to face the consequences. No matter how many years that has passed, Japan will never forget. Their moment for revenge will come.

We are raising all kinds of hell about Iran and North
Korea having nuclear weapons? What makes it okay for us to have these weapons and not them? Given our past history of being irresponsible with these weapons, coupled with the ambush of our government by the 'kill for Christ folks' Add that to our bas

131 James

And you are obviously speaking for the US all by yourself.

The US did not enter WW2 to fight facism or Nazis it was dragged in by the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. Even the sinking of thousand of tons of US shipping by Nazi U Boats and the resulting deaths of thousand of US sailors couldnt get the US into the war.
And the US did not defeat Nazi Germany the Soviet Union gets credit for that.
They and they alone broke the back of the German Wehrmacht and the elite SS divisions on the eastern front long before D Day. We only speeded up the process.
And the only thing the US has ever stood for is the US that isnt a critisism by the way just a fact. You should look after your own interests first every body else does.
Its the hypocracy and bullshit I object to from the whiter than white we are always the good guys no matter what we do or where we do it that gets up my nose.

133 L.E

You didnt present your statement as a belief of faith but as a fact and as a fact I have to challenge it.
And my question is still valid.
Is GWB an admitted born again Christian acting as a Christian by your definition or as a follower of Mohammed again by your definition.
Has he followed Christs example of self sacrifice or has he followed Mohammeds teachings and offered others the chance to sacrifice themselves or be damned from his salvation.
It looks pretty obvious to me Georgie boy is an Islamic fundamentalist judging by your criteria.

I dont believe there are many in the US today that will agree with your statements regarding the economy or the social paradise you have just described. Many in the US as well as everywhere else is having to work their arses off to make ends meet and just when they are starting to get slightly ahead of the game along comes another piece of legislation to take it all away again.
You sound like one of the lucky few that hasnt had to struggle for anything in your life.
It would certainly explain a lot about the manner of your statements.

#134--135--136--YOUR inferiority complex manifests itself in YOUR attempts at INTELLECT,
superiority & derogatory verbage.

And Sandy your humanity is a beacon of light to us all.

Goodnight all.

Mike:

it is a statement of fact that the paradigm structure of the leader/rabbi of Christianity provided His blood and the leader/prophet of Islam provided conversion by the sword...

your question is sophistry. You intentionally proceed in obtuseness to set up your strawman. We are not in Iraq to convert people to Christianity. My point is that the basic framework of each religion is significantlydifferent in attitude, spirit and intent towards a possibly convert. Your point is to make a point that you think President Bush is a terrorist. Saddam Hussein killed at a minimum 350k of his citizens. Many in an extremely brutal manner. You cannot compare Iraq as an argument that President Bush is practicing Islamic terrorism. Oh, you probably will. I imagine you make a great deal of noise in your local pub pontificating on all you do not know or understand.

You are presumptious to make any statement about whether i have experienced any hardships in life or not. Do you think because one works hard and achieves they must become part of some proliteriate political group? the 'workers' never rose up as Marx thought they would because the workers discovered that the opportunities here are incredible, so now the only way to implement socialism is to do so by government fiat...only it is an abject failure where ever it has been implemented. Humans work on merit and reward, offer to support the less able and offer a hand up... there will always be those who choose to work their shift and go home...and there will always be others who put in their shift and then take courses, 2nd job or begin a business. The gross national product of all EU countries (except Poland and soon to be new member Turkey) are moribund. Just consider that perhaps all of the gloomy descriptions of the U.S. is so that your populace isn't made aware of how the tax code is killing your opportunities.

#134 irregardless is NOT a word (sorry its one of my pet peeves)
and i am

#133 L.E.
"and 115 JG... the difference between a terrorist and a revolutionary/freedom fighter is very clear" - I guess you've got the post numbers mixed up because I never asked/said that. Never mind - your mistake!

"We are not in Iraq to convert people to Christianity"

No, I think you'd be on a hiding to nothing with that one! So, tell me again WHY ARE "WE" IN IRAQ?

Religious fanatics have always been opposed to science, democracy, and freedom. (And no, the Founders were deists if anything, not fundamentalist Christians.) In the US right now it has led to some situations which would be amusing if they weren't so frightening. For example, in the state of Arkansas there is now an official if unstated poiicy against the teaching of evolution. The word cannot even be mentioned by teachers. One geology teacher says:
“I am instructed NOT to use hard numbers when telling kids how old rocks are. I am supposed to say that these rocks are VERY VERY OLD ... but I am NOT to say that these rocks are thought to be about 300 million years old.” This is where fundamentalism leads, to ignorance. True and his ilk can believe what they like, but as long as they fight against science in the name of religion (and he claims to be educated) they will end up supporting people who say things such as: "evolution is only a theory." Which only proves how woefully ignorant they are about the entire idea of science. Even if True has taken a course in statistics. Those who would replace the secular state with a theocracy are simply un-American, ignorant of history, philosophy, and science. Let me offer to people such as True a translation of our First Amendment in words they might understand: Freedom of religion means freedom from religion. Get it?
Oh, never mind.
--a proud American, proudly of Scottish descent

Sylvai, Daniel, and others ... I'm feeling ya. Not to get too far off subject, but why is it so hard to accept the teachings of Jesus Christ, which not only lead to (ETERNAL) Life, but was proven by His resurrection? Why must I be a 'loon' to accpet this, but 'enlightened' to follow any others' teachings, such as Budda, Confucious, Mohammed, and others? For all it's worth, they attempted to point to a path to 'God', but Jesus was the ONLY ONE who declared that He IS the Way, the Truth, and the Light. And that's stated in the Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Ethiopic, Latin,and just about any other translation of the Scriptures (MANY thanks to www.drgenescott.com)!

Lee 139

The Prophet of Islam provided conversion by the sword. Yes its a very nice Paradigm but what does it mean and what are you implying in the way you are presenting it.
Are you suggesting all converts to Islam are forced at the point of a sword? or for them to reach salvation requires an act of violence on their part?

If you want a good example of forced conversion and religious indocrination then look no further than the Catholic church in the Republic of Ireland at the turn of the century not 500 years ago as you suggest.
Many orphan children and children who were taken from their parents by the state were handed over to Catholic Nuns for their keeping and guess what they were force fed Catholic doctrine sometimes brutally.
Your paradigm would fit here just nicely dont you think?
But nobody is suggesting Irish Catholics are prime terrorists OH wait a minute yes they are given the conduct of the IRA in the UK and the massive support they received from the good ol USA.
The arms and cash raised in the USA certainly went a long way to killing a lot of British soldiers and Northern Irish citizens whos only crime was they worshiped within a different Christian sect.
Christians helping Christians kill Christians in the name of Christ and you've got the nerve to give Islam a hard time. See if you can dig out a Paradigm for that little mess.

And an economist you obviously are not.

#142 Marcus
I'm not sure I spotted anyone saying that Christians are loonies and followers of other religions aren't. The gist I'm getting is that people feel that extremists in any religion are at the very least "a bit scary"! If you believe in God and Jesus then that is your right and if it helps you through the day then that's fine too.

But why do you have to "follow" someone? And are you actually interpreting the bible for yourself or are you listening to these self-seeking evangelists spin on it? Giving them your money isn't going buy you a seat in the front row when you (hopefully!) make it to heaven.

134 - Expose the Truth

Yes! Precisely! Tell it! Well said - the truth hurts...

This gaggle of twits in Texas is just the tip of the iceburg. They have major hives in Lynchburg Virginia--where Rev. Moon money, Falwell craziness and the 'Rapturist' twaddle of the Tim LaHaye all intersect. Moon money (Korean CIA) bailed out the Falwell organization as well as the WASHINGTON TIMES, which never earns a profit and--as far as I can see serves only to make the WASHINGTON POST look half-way respectable.

To the east of Lynchburg lies the domain of Rev. Pat Robertson who called for the assassination of Hugo Chavez, the democraticly elected president of Venezuela. And, lest we forget Henry Luce's tent preacher, Billy Graham, that TIME plucked from the obscurity of LA evangelism to give a religious hue to the Cold War are lurking here in North Carolina. There is also his Muslim-baiting offspring.

All of them have one thing in common, when Israel has gas, they fart...apparently, the existence of an atheistic Zionist state is of some importance to them.

Unfortunately, the real comic relief in this pack of pseudo-Christian jackals--the Bakers...Tammy Faye was my favorite...are part of America's religious heritage: financial scandal, sexual indisgressions and prison...though there is a buxom platinum blonde bombshell on one of the hokum and soak 'em shows that looks more like a pole dancer or an item behind the glass in Amsterdam, than an evangelist...she could well be the media replacement for Tammy. Seems that this type of personna must bring in the cash. The psychologists, I'm sure, have explored the sex-money-religion intricacies of the human psyche.

On another note, if you go to the translations of the Iranian president's speeches, untainted by the ties of the translators to Israeli intelligence, you'll see that what he is calling for is an end to the Zionist regime, not the nation of Israel. While he is no peach, Olmert and the thing that was just brought in to the Israeli government--who an HA'ARETZ editorial compared

134 - your comment "Americans are by and large 'as dumb as a plug'" - is RACIST VENOM. You make me ashamed.

All readers of this article, please read post #29, *thank you!*

"Listen up, president of Iran," booms the pastor. "We are going to be your worst nightmare, Mr Ahmadinejad.

Maybe

http://www.prosefights.org/larryeverest/larryeverest.htm

No Rosalee. ancient Babylon was in what is Iraq today. End-times Babylon - that is in America.

Um, Daniel, I do not entirely agree with your contention that 134's statement is racist.

It is perhaps a harsh (if funny) way of stating the truth, i.e. that an alarming majority of Americans are shockingly ignorant, especially when one considers the resources available in that great land.

Neither do I believe the statements in post 29 about life for Arabs in Israel - my partner lived and worked there some years ago, and tells quite a different story from the picture you paint - and things have definitely gotten worse...

Ex-Pat - I think comments in 134 have a lot of truth in that here in America our education system has purposely dumbed-down our people, our media has deceived our people and kept our people ignorant. But I do not agree that the Americans are somehow defective relative to others in this world.

On the contrary I know how my people are and we are not at all defective inherently. If the evil that has come to America came to germany or england or japan or any other country in the world and attacked those nations as it has attacked mine, then your nations would succomb much more quickly and easier than mine.

Also I agree with your assessment of #29. The Israelis are doing great evil to the Palestinians. The recent murder-fest that was called the war against Hezbollah was extremely evil.

this article above does describe some of the American christians accurately. However, like in any other community the American christian community is very diverse in its views. I would say that this article accurately describes a sizable minority of the American christians.

In the early part of the bible a large theme is the special blessings that god gave to the hebrew tribe. But each time that this special blessing is spoken of, then later on a threat is issued that if this tribe does not follow the laws they are given and properly honor god, then all of these blessings will be taken away.

before jesus was sacrificed he was speaking with some high-ranking people in the jewish hierarchy, and he told them that their blessing was to be taken from them and given to others.

In the same time-frame jesus said that a conspiracy against him was being built up in jerusalem. And after jesus was sacrificed some jews who did oppose him wrote the majority of present-day jewish scripture. And this present-day jewish scripture is completely opposed to the early jewish scripture of the torah. people who are christian should note this carefully.

christians & jews are united by the torah. Christians and jews are divided by the talmud.

christians should remember what is written in Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 where it says that in the end-times there will be many who call themselves jew, but are really with the synagogue of satan.

christians should also be aware that in the bible there are many verses that identify this 'Israel' that is to receive these blessings as not a nation that is the genetic seed of early hebrew leaders, but instead the spiritual seed, those who believe in god are said to be Israel and receive these blessings, not some tribe of people merely descendant from someone else.

And christians should also consider that the large majority of present-day Israel is not descendant from the early hebrews mentioned in

to True in #17 - gosh True. You're crazy. You ridiculed europeans for their immigration problem. And you are American. I live in Arizona. Let me explain to you. Our people have been opposed to these high levels of immigration for 40 years. and yet both parties pursue these policies of high levels of immigration. I know of a public school in suburban Phoenix where all of the lessons are given in Spanish. the English speaking children are out-of-luck. and yet they are the Americans. And the immigrants are the spanish speakers.

A couple of months ago the Heritage Foundation revealed that the immigration legislation favored by Bush and by most Republicans will facilitate 100 million new immigrants in 20 years. We The People don't have any control over these politicians. Don't you think maybe that we Americans have an immigration problem?

any American who ridicules Europe for having an immigration problem is a mental case.

Not all born again evangelicals agree with Hagee! I am a born again evangelical Christian and do NOT agree with Hagee's view re. Israel, the Middle East, and Iraq. As much as I deplore Hagee's views in this area, I believe he teaches sound doctrine in other areas. His salary is way too high. Of course people should not be millionnaires by going into ministry, nor should they be paupers. I believe Hagee and a good portion of the evangelical church is in error regarding foreign policy, much like the majority of evangelical Christians in 1940s Germany were in error (except for Bonhoeffer and others like him who resisted the third reich). I pray that Hagee's errors will not keep you and others from the Lord Jesus Christ who died as a substitute for your sins (and mine) on the cross 2000 years ago. I pray that Hagee will focus on those things that are sound doctrine and let go of pre-tribulation rapture theology that had it's start in the late 1800s in church history, and not in the Bible itself. Pre-tribulation rapture theology grew out of dispensationalism, a theological framework developed initally by Darby and then more popularly by Scofield, a person of very dubious character. There's an excellent recent book about him. The historical position of the Christian church coming out of the reformation has largely been primarily postmillenialism, not pre-millenial pre-tribulation rapture which leads to Hagee type views regarding the middle east. Sound-minded Christians and others need to look to our Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and Bill of Rights, which all of very significant Christian and biblical underpinnings/foundations as the supreme law of the land. These documents and our founding fathers warned us of becoming unduly entangled in foreign fairs and that the only just war is one that is in self-defense and declared by congress. Beyond this, we need to look to the Law of God as found in the 10 Commandments and the Case Law of the old testament

The article by Chris Stephen regarding Hagee, the Christian right and Israel emanating from the Cornerstone Church is illustrative of how little our preachers actually know about their Bible, prophecy and what the God of Creation desires from His people.

"Hagee preaches that if Americans want God to bless America then Americans had better bless the Jews." but the Scriptures paint a different picture.

The common attribute of Judaism is the denial of Christ being the Son of God. It is written, “Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.” 1John 2:23. Even a simple mind can see that if one denies Christ, they do not have the Father. Isn’t the Father the God Judaism pretends to worship? What father?

If Judaism denies Christ then they are anti-Christ’s and liars (1John 2:22), enemies of true Israel. It is also written, “Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD and so bring wrath on yourself from the LORD?” (2Chronicles 19:2) If America blesses enemies of God, doesn’t she bring the wrath of the LORD on themselves?

One ought to get understanding from Scripture, not from men who pervert it for their own purposes.

For the King of Kings,
Larry Penner
Washington

I'm so happy to see that other Americans agree with me. This fellow Pastor Hagee is part of the 'fallen-away' church. It is spoken of by jesus in Matthew 24 and elsewhere. In the end-times there is to be a large portion of the church that is fallen-away. In the fallen-away faith they have a faith, but it is the wrong faith. This is prophesied more than once in the bible and as I said included in Jesus' words in Matthew 24.

Praise the Lord. For he is coming. His wrath is always just.

You should look up the stories told by those who witnessed George Washington in december 1777 speak to his troops one morning at Valley Forge and told them of an angel that visited him. The angel spoke a prophecy to washington. and washington relayed it to his troops. I won't tell the story. But it is fascinating.

Instead, I'll tell you about Babylon. As you all know in the end-times prophecy there is a Babylon spoken of. This is true in many books of the bible. There are many things that prophecy says about end-times babylon. It is open to interpretation.

But there are many like myself who believe that Babylon is here. It is here in our country.

You all can read the prophecies about babylon. The concept of end-times babylon is spoken of in many books of the bible, including old testament and new testament. I believe it safe to say that Daniel and Revelation are thought to speak about Babylon the most.

There was an ancient babylon, originally from Iraq ironically. And there is end-times Babylon. The end-times Babylon is geographically located in America.

It is to be destroyed in one-hour's time. Upon its destruction the world will be at darkest hour. That is when jesus will return. Judgement will occur. Then the kingdom of heaven will be built here on earth.

That is the special secret reason of the American nation that it would participate in this prophecy as I've outlined.

Well Well Well our holier than thou give me all your cash for Christ has had to resign because he was caught paying for sodomy with a man. Bless Him.

Maybe he will pay back all the millions he's made by his preachings but I bet instead he will try a comeback saying he's a fallen angel and is in need of salvation an forgiveness for his sinfull transgressions.
Jesus has forgiven me why cant you etc etc.

And no doubt the gullible and moronic will again donate what they can ill afford with tears in their eyes love in their hearts and mince in their heads.

If anybody would like to donate cash to me I would be more than happy to tell you anything you want to hear.