A totalitarian global one world government is on the way.. BUT... they cant do it all at once...so they do it bit by bit by bit

Another item in this section uses the sexist/moralising term 'midwife' Since midwife means "with the wife" this assumes that the person having a baby is FEMALE (how absurd!) and also MARRIED!!!!!!!.
Is Glasgow also banning the term "midwife"???We really need to know.

windlass, heresy, Manchester, Ladywell, Ladybank,
will half of the Clyde now be known as the Bonnieand what are we going to do about Cockburnspath? Petty, idiotic, jobsworth, po-faced humourless @rseh013s to a man and woman. Thank goodness they managed (sorry, no MANagers anymore) succeeded in solving all of our current problems before inventing new ones

And what are our co-persons of an alternative sexual grouping going to call a manhole?

Shouldn't the final paragraph have begun 'A council spokesperson' ?
I am also however intrigued by the thought of male council employees wearing flowery dresses.

Of course, not one of the possibilities I have mentioned above could possibly come to pass, because Glasgow newspapers don't have the balls to report anything -- OOPS! Did I say 'balls'?

Or maybe they'll be invited to join one or other of Glasgow's looney local political parties and be feted in George's Square?

Hey! I forgot! What's that guy's name? .... Sheridan! That's right! He's got the party (no double-meaning intended, I'm sure).
He's the guy with the party that's right for anyone who can totally, completely, absolutely, never say anything that's got anything even slightly to do with those really, utterly nasty notions of ... you know .. the 'S*X' or 'G*ND*R' stuff.

have you noticed that most of the newspeak terms are longer, will take more paper and ink - how green are you?

Not surprising from a country which has replaced Strath Spey with Spey Valley and Spey side
Firth of Clyde with Clyde Estuary
Tweedale with Tweed Valley

"Don't assume it is acceptable to address women by endearments such as 'dear', 'pet' and 'love' when you would not address men in such a way."

I'm not sure if females are addressed as 'pet' and 'love' in Scotland much anyway - might that indicate that the book is English in origin?

But I recall a male bus driver in Yorkshire addressing me as 'love' - appparently it happens a lot there - so in accordance with the above guideline it would be OK for him to address women as 'love'!

Well, the intention behind the guidelines seems a noble one but unfortunately, they only treat a handful of symptoms, not the underlying attitudes and will therefore inevitably fail.

Everybody is 'Darling' to me, male or female. xx

I wonder how much it cost Glasgow City Council to come up with this garbage? Or should I say, how much did it cost the council tax payers?

I really would have thought that Glasgow had many more problems to concern itself with, and wouldn't have had the time or the money to spend on such nonsense.

If they want to bastardise the language in their own homes, that is up to them, but if they expect other people to use stupid words like a "personhole cover" and similar, it's time they got kicked out. Incidentally, a chair is something you sit on. A chairman is, according to the Oxford Dictionary, a person chosen to preside over a meeting.

I am delighted that Glasgow City Council is going to outlaw sexism. I really despise being referred to as 'hen' and feel there is no place for this level of offensive disempowerment. I'm actively involved in trying to rid the church of exclusive language, and would like to see certain words banned such as brethren.....and yes, I'd like to see the end of the word chairman. Chairperson is absolutely fine. Likewise, my current job title is Centre Manager, NOT Centre Manageress. I think we need to come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who thinks it's acceptable to indulge in the vile practice of sexism whether male or female.

#4 - 'a personhole'.

. . and just when Glasgow really seem to be getting their act together, compared to the ragbag ferrets-fighting-in-a-sack shambles of nonentities-on-the-make who pretend to run this fair City of Embra, out comes this pseudo 1970's Sociological Claptrap!! Stuart #14 - you're right - 'Love' and 'Pet' are much more English (Yorkshire/Lancashire/Midlands) than West Coast - look for some new middle-management Human Resources Prat from that neck of the woods behind this piece of municipal nonsense.

Well - here's something new and important for us all to consider and worry about, while the planet continues to take a daily beating from man-made (sorry, 'person-made') pollution and our coastal cities all wait passively to be inundated.

I see a very strong argument here for closing down all of these bulls*** 'Humanities' departments and their laughable pseudo-courses - or better still, the 'Universities' that present them - if this is the best that the products of the UK's so-called Education System can come up with.

#19 Not being from Glasgow I can't really be sure, but, don't women there also call each other "hen".

Incidentally, exactly what is "offensive disempowerment"? And how does being called "hen" do this to you?

Helen from Midlothian - you need to get a life, Hen. Wimmin who get all hung up about this stuff usually have a monumental inferiority complex - you're clearly not busy enough Managing your Centre, if reading Germaine Greer is all you've got to bother about.

Will toilet door 'identifications' be problematical?

Is the 'Chief' alleged top person in Glasgow 'Provost Cameron' and should not include the phrases 'Lady' or 'Liz' and if so, to be correct - (as we know, Ladies, like Gentlemen, especially these days, are still like lamp-posts - few and far between, especially in the use of 'language dept.) therefore is it OK to address the Provost (whoever!) as mere Provost ? or even, perhaps as 'Oi! You.' - no gender problem there!

Celebratory card manufactureres are going to have one hell of a problem!

Glasgow Council must be absolutely 'work starved' if they have time to waste on such small matters as this pantomime!

Presumably all the crime on their streets must be down to someone else in the 'Twis'nae me' dept!'

I've got a better idea. Lets do away with the words woman, female, she, her etc. That particular gender has virtually ceased to exist and has been largely replaced by a third sex which is alien to our civilisation.
[:-)]

Helen of Midlothian: "I'm actively involved in trying to rid the church of exclusive language,..." ?????

So are you going to amend the Bible to S/He, Her/His throughout?

Presumably the Editor, or whoever, is giving the necessary serious thought to a name change for 'The Scots ???. - or pehaps not?

Well words what can one say?
If we exclude man and male does this mean woman are now Wo and female is now Fe?
How can we tell if Wo..man is Wo...men? If we use just Wo? Are they now Woperson and Wopersons? And can we use 'Son'? So its Woper and Wopers.

I once worked as a bus driver and every single day I was addressed as Son: Love; Darling, Sweetheart, Driver, Mate, Pal, Lover, B******.

All those words except Pal and B***** are sexist. For years I was abused verbally by Wos I never realised that all those Fes were sexist swine. Should I now sue Lothian for the verbal abuse I had to put up with?

Well said, Guga - if I'm 'Chairing' a meeting, I occupy the 'Chair' and, through a process of biological determinism, I am the 'Chairman'. Should the 'Chair' ('Cathedra' in Latin, as 'seat of power') become vacant, the new occupant may be the 'Chairman' or 'Chairwoman', according to the layout of their personal plumbing. 'Chairperson' is an ugly, contrived term that should be banned from the English language.

What a great day so far. First this nonsense then I read the Sunday Times online about a man in Swansea is given a criminal record for putting a piece of paper in a re-cycle bag for cans. His first offense - putting out the bin on the wrong day.

BTW many 'wimmin' address men as love or in SW England 'my lover'. Why don't these feeble minded loonies go an do some work.

Watch out for the personhole covers!

Helen get a life, hen! There are much more important things in this world to get wound up about than an endearment. Starvation, war and world poverty are just a few examples. Try seeing the big picture and you might begin to realise how lucky you are with, really, nothing worth complaining about! As for Glasgow council. I have a vision of women sitting round the table cooking this scheme up as cushy number rather than providing services to taxpayers as they are meant to be doing. If they have the time to do this the council has too many employees and should reduce the wage bill.

Susan #24. Believe me I have a life and I don't need to read Germaine Greer to know when women are being disempowered by offensive, thoughtless language. As a highly qualified professional who has a very responsible job, I can assure you I don't have a monumental inferiority complex, and I certainly don't allow sexist language in my workplace. By the way, it was Betty Friedan not Germaine Greer that helped me to become a proud feminist....

William #27 Use of words like brethren and mankind marginalise and exclude women in the church. The NRSV translation is inclusive and much easier to read. It doesn't take much to alter sons to read sons & daughters, or brethren to read brothers & sisters. The Bible isn't a sexist book but institutionalised religions have interpreted it in a sexist way for their own ends which usually involve disempowering women.

And there was me thinking that Cooncils were just there to mend holes in the road, run libraries and public lavvies, and empty the buckets - that sort of thing. Now they're telling us (who elect them) how to think and speak. Next May, when these wobbly-bottomed parasites come slithering round your door wanting another hurl on the Gravy Train, give them hell!!

Well, Helen, Dearie - all I can say is that I pity anyone who has to work under your grey Stalinist regime in Midlothian. And I'll bet your man has to make his ain tea, as well!

Alex #32 As someone who spent a number of years doing voluntary work in a developing country, I am only too aware of the amount of war, poverty and famine in the world. However, eradicating sexism still needs to be a priority because if we allow it to continue then we are disempowering people. I can speak up for myself (and as I'm not a chicken you have absolutely no right to refer to me as a hen) but there are countries where people cannot speak up for themselves, and we should be deeply concerned.

What a load of crap! (neutral gender of course) terms of friendship that have been used for centuries are now upsetting people. Poor wee hens!
Next we won't be able to say what a load of crap! for fear of upsetting someone with a bowel problem.
I run one of the biggest portfolios in London, I don't give a toss how I'm addressed just as long as at the end of the year I receive my £1m+ bonus. This way men can come crawling as much as they like to share the secrets of my success.
So Bolloc*s! to the old hometown cooncil!

Helen! you have it all wrong hen! Brothers and sisters? Sons and daughters? If you soooooooooooo much of a feminist it should be Daughters and sons? etc?

#33 "The Bible isn't a sexist book". Umm Helen, could you tell me which parts were written by the daughters and sisters? I must have missed them first time round.

What worries me is what the rest of the World will make of this tosh....

Blair's Labour Government is the equivalent of a drunk in charge of a Brewery.

Its interesting to note that it is mainly men and a few women with what I would describe as agressive loutish tendencies who seem to be responding to this article - Helen take heart from the fact that you seem to be one of the few who are taking an objective view of what certainly takes place in society. I personally have no problem if someone calls me love or pet - but not in a work situation. Having had to fight tooth and nail to have equality in the work place - and since it is mainly women who have experienced this problem - then I am not surprised that it is mainly men who are against change - what's new?

Helen....
Inclusive language has its place, but there are some areas of the churhc where that will be difficult. How to end the service ?? In the name of the Parent, the Offspring, and the Spook ???

We look back to the Victorians and make fun of their aversion to the sight, or mention, of table legs, or the supposed indelicacy of a lady using the word "breeches" even although she was confronted with them every day she left the house (see Thackeray). Looks like the politically correct brigade will in turn be objects of derision a few generations from now.

Helen of Midlothian: do please answer the question: do you want the Bible altered throughout to She/He and Her/His or not?

What's wrong with being called "hen" or "dear" or "love"? Surely they are terms of politeness or even mild endearment? I say "my dear" to both men and women - just trying to be pleasant and sweeten somebody's day!
Or is the bitterness so evident in some of these posts (oh dear, Helen, try aromatherapy!) better?

I detect a pattern here. Females being elevated over males. Islam being elevated over Christianity, Coloureds over Whites. If my WIFE was not a WOMAN and me a MAN, what hope would there be for us to have children? These same children may be girls or boys. Both different and both equal. In#36 Helen, bless her, talks about people who cannot speak up for themselves. If this nonsense continues, none of us will dare to say anything for fear of upsetting the thought police.
PS surely the name HELEN is sexist. We must all change our names to one that is gender non-specific.

Helen 19#
well misus wumin, yuse hiv tae hae a dammed big chip on yer shidder, if yuse n yer likes think thit gender is sumfin new yuse ir affy mistook.

#50 Christopher, no, there's no pattern - this particular bit of politically correct drivel is a different bit of politically correct drivel to the other bits.

Peter - it is now "The Guild".
You would be most welcome!

I almost look forward to the day when left-wing liberal lunacy dictates that a ship's captain has to run around shouting ' people the pumps' as his ship sinks beneath him.

Sandra McElphee ... ah love you!

As a Lancastrian I am used to being called "Love" by persons of both genders,( should that be all genders?); it is a general greeting, not an endearment. It seems to me that the officials, and the elected officers of Glasgow ,haven't got enough real work to do.

Dahlings, what are the luvvies to do now? Have they got a huperson resources department?

Thank goodness inanimate objects don't have a sex as in most European languages.
And most of us are hu---people?

How dare they dictate that I can no longer be known by my husband's name. That's one of the reasons I married my surgeon, for his hands and his name ;-)

Dearest Helen of Midlothian, I'm sorry about the sexist nature of my name, but I can't help it - it's the one given me by my parents and I quite like it, so I tend to use it a lot. My brethren and cistern were given different names to save confusion within the household - a neat tactic which has worked for years now. You, however, can call me Fanny if it offends or disempowers you.

In the short time I have known and grown to love you, you have managed to communicate that you are highly qualified, hold a very responsible job at a senior level, have enriched the lives of a grateful people in a developing nation and are a good Christian to boot. Whoopyflippindoo! Such glowing self-endorsements, to my mind, do not enhance your credibility to speak on the subject (which was never in question, anyway) but they might suggest that you do indeed have a such a monumental inferiority complex that you feel the need to qualify your utterances by saying what you do rather than who you are. Think about it.

As for Glasgow City Council, as an organisation where one is likely to have one's business dealt with by a Bernadette Flynn, an Ann-Marie Flanagan, a Theresa Doyle, a Patrick Docherty , a Michael Quinn or a Brendan O'Neill (metaphorically, of course), methinks you have bigger issues to deal with than the one you have chosen. Here are some more words for your dictionary of properspeak.... pot, kettle and black!

What an absolute load of complete gender feminist crap - There are so many other important issues surely that can be debated in Scotland – In Wales the word ‘Love’ is used frequently in all working conditions by both Women and Men –
EXAMPLE
Someone’s ill “How are you today love” or a Shopping assistant “Thank you love”

Nasty femminists on thier own agenda telling us how and what to speak “Get a f.....g Life” idots!

Oh... the stupid twits!

There's so much, so much that needs doing in Glasgow and all they can do is sit there and make idiots of themselves in public.

As far as respect for women is concerned, I don't think I can be faulted - but this twisted, moronic reasoning! Someone needs a child psychiatrist and sending back to school. Nursery school by the sound of it.

The intentions are no doubt good, but if ever you see anyone with that kind of good intentions coming towards you, whether you're man, woman or beast, get up and RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!!

Main thing on display is plain, blooming ignorance.
If these good people have their way, it'll be like the fire brigade arriving with flame throwers.

They'll really split us into HuMans and HuWomans.

Variations on George Orwell's 1984, Newspeak, and the Anti-Sex League....

It's really distressing what our minders get up to. But they could always be put up to doing something socially useful, like tidying up the lanes around here... Or going out into the streets and talking to real people...

Oh dear Helen, can you imagine how that revered religious sect are going to feel about being renamed the Plymouth Brothers and Sisters. No doubt the UK will be invaded by the US in due course for failing to amend any references to the Plymouth Fathers (that's enough Plymouth. Ed.)

(Please excuse reference to bad language in this post - I am simply trying to make a point)

How pathetic. I happen to like being a woman. I like it when I'm called hen or dear - makes me feel nice. But I suppose now I've admitted that I'll have the leftie socialist women's movement mounting a campaign to rescue me form my oppression. For crying out loud - does it matter what you're called. If someone called me a C*** or a w**** I'd be upset but as for the men I work with or pass in the street calling me dear, love, hen, even wifey, I find inoffensive. It's time all these wierdos took their noses out of the air and looked down for a change - men and women are different because nature intended them to have different roles. If one some women want to be of neutral gender, bally-ho - but don't stop the rest of us being WOMEN.

Does this mean that Labour.. Tories and all the rest wont have a MAN..ifesto?

And before anyone accuses me of being a poor wee highland lassie (oops sorry person) I happen to have a degree which I worked hard for but never took my place in any great instituion as I was put off by politically correct socialism which is rife in such establishments. Why can't we be left well alone - if someone upsets/offends me, I tell them, hopefully they don't do it again - life goes on as normal and the powers that be can get on with more important business.

Once again Glasgow/Scotland has to create legislation to combat its parochialism and over-casual nature. Just you try getting ahead anywhere in the professional world outside Glasgow by referring to co-workers as "the girls" and referring to customers as "pet" and "hen". It's what I've come to call the "och aye" culture - we just can't be bothered with basic manners and respect. I would never call a woman "hen" simply because she's a woman or refer to a colleague or subordinate as "love" simply because it's part of my regional vocabulary. Excuses, excuses, excuses.

The breakdown of manners and formality in our society doesn't begin at school, it begins at home with the idea that it's OK to act in public the same way you act in your living room - and from there it's a slipperly slope down to the state that Scotland is in today. And why is it that the sort of people who use terms like "pet" and "hen" never have a full set of teeth?

Aw Man!!!!.. this is terrible... Ooops... I mean..
Aw Person!!!... This is terrible..

No more "Instruction MAN..uals".. They wil now be called "INSTRUCTION PERSONUALS"... No longer will "Fire-persons" be able to "MAN THE PUMPS".. They will have to "PERSON THE PUMPS"..

"MAN-slaughter" is no-longer a crime.. It will be replaced with "PERSON-slaughter"

The English language and all its dialects is the most beautiful and expressive language. Freedom of speach is the hallmark of a truly democratic nation. I do not believe that a handful of petty minded beaurocrats that may not even be in their job next year have the moral right or the power to make changes to a culture and heritage that will (God willing) still be around long after these people are buried (physically or politically). I assume from this article that it is still ok to be called an infidel or gentile. I assume that it will also be ok for the gay men and women to still use their own terms that segregate - after all the word 'gay' is an expression based solely on one's sexuality. I can only assume that there is a motive behind all this that has the intention to destroy a culture and heritage that at present still puts all other nations to shame and by which others are measured against and which is the envy of so many. Its time for the people of Great Britain to put your votes to work and take some pride in who you are and not allow these alien forces to divide and conquer. It is time to oust these petty minded and subversive elements that are trying to destroy your culture in YOUR name

It might take a few more years than Orwell imagined, but we are well on the way to a 1984 State as long as idiotic legislation such as this is promoted.

This just ANOTHER non-story.

MOST public facing organisation give guidance on how to address customers. A council is no exception.

Indeed, most newspapers also give similar advice to journalistic staff in the form of a style guide.

Maybe we should see the one for SoS.

_____________
freetalkscotland - Scotland's leading forum for heavy discussion and light chat.

I have a seven year old daughter who reacts badly when called by a name other than her own, because she takes it literally, being too young to have learnt to take it for what it is - usually a term of affection. I explain that this happens to everyone and that as she grows up she will realise this and not be bothered by it - as is the case with most adults. I think there are a few people in Glasgow who need to grow up - life really is too short to be worried by these petty matters.

WTF ?
It just keeps getting worse.
There must be something in the water through there.

Dave... You have a problem now... You live in the "Isle of MAN"... You will have to change that to ISLE OF PERSON

What a waste of time, effort, and taxpayers money.
What happened to the good old scottish backbone, where one could speak up for ones self ?
Is everyone now incapable of dong so ? Try spending our money on something constructive rather than waste it i'm sure the councils, social work, police forces,schools, hospitals, etc could fund better causes than this

Grumpy 77

"Just you try getting ahead anywhere in the professional world outside Glasgow by referring to co-workers as "the girls" and referring to customers as "pet" and "hen". It's what I've come to call the "och aye" culture - we just can't be bothered with basic manners and respect."

I work in the professional world outside Glasgow (in fact I've worked all over the world) and I have to say I've got ahead everywhere and have used this type of language frequently.

Having said that, you address different people in different ways at different times for different reasons. It's just common sense, and is very much connected with basic manners and respect.

It is bad mannered and disrespectful for our councils to tell us how we should or should not address each other - it is literally none of their business.

since nobody but indigenous locally born inhabitants can understand the various scots dialects such as Glsagow and Ayrshire whet does it matter but it has given rise to a lot af very humerous comments.

and will the sandra elphee please marry me.

Hey Herb@75, that rabbit thingie almost makes me wish I was a woman... where's that Cecilia till I talk to her husband?

J, #85, very true my friend ha ha ha. Thankfully all the PC nonsense has not reached our island yet and hopefully never will.

The island is being known as the Isle of Woman next weekend as a lot of events are planned to raise money for Breast Cancer Research but that's as far as we will go.

We are MAN and proud of it. Sorry Helen......... Ha Ha Ha.

It's "hen" "son" and "Jimmy" they'll have to jail Weedgies for.
"Love " and "Pet" are hardly terms used in Glasgow, or Scotland as a whole as far as I'm aware, which shows how much the politically correct, wannabe Anglo, middle classes know about the society they parasite off.
I assume MSPs use them to each other while air kissing at Labour Party buffets.

328 - Victor

Indeed, given the current editorial bias, NORTH BRITSHER would be appropriate.

It's sufficiently gender unspecific and would help to explain aberrations like the leading NON-story in today's "Politics" section.

Just another thought, what will happen to that strange religious sect, the Plymouth Brethren, or indeed the people who sailed to America, the Founding Fathers? Is the Lord Provost now going to be known as theChief Provost, or will this smack ( probably another word not to be used) of elitism?
In fact, an earlier suggestion of "oi, you" does seem appropiate.

Also I assume that a company called Rentokil Initial, who specilaise in "Feminine Hygene" will no have no contracts with the council.

#86, sorry, but you just asked for this

"hello darlin'"

Does this mean, as a bloke, I'll be able to wear my skirt going to Tesco for my groceries without fear of ridicule and persecution anymore. (There's such a lack of understanding these days don't you think)

David on the Isle of Man... what a "Darlin" you sound.
I`m sooo glad PC hasn`t reached your Isle yet. Are you still hanging & birching there? Your remarks re. Helen`s clothes, hair style say more about you than her. Men suffer from breast cancer too so make it Isle of People weekend.

Douglas from Bathgate( 4 ) has raised a very pertinent question. The council should be more concerned about ensuring that humans don,t fall down 'personholes' than wasting money on this rubbish. One things certain - Glasgow councillors will not be invited to Manitoba !

These pathetic people are promoted from the ranks of the Old Labour West Coast Mafia not because they are competent councillors but because they know how to play their sordid internecine political games.

Lacking any useful talent or creativity that could serve mankind in general, or their constituents in particular, they waste their overpaid time in office by concocting this mindless "politically correct" crap.

Just a thought...........

Are there still Ladies & Gents toilets in the City Chambers in Glasgow????

Oh Jesus- if you could only look down and have a look at this pathetic rhetoric coming from this City Council.

I, like others, are very concerned that intellectuals might be looking at this and wondering whats going on in this Glasgow City council- Drunks in charge of the brewery- This you now is what is called as "dumming down"- Do we not have other bigger problems to address? It's very evident they are running out of ideas on how to spend our TAX payers money- These people should really people bagged for mis-appropration of public funds. Where's the Audit committee ?

Everybody leave Scotland- this maddness can't be alowed to continue. ahhhhhhh

So if we can't use terms of endearment that we wouldn't use with men (and where do homosexuals in a liberal minded office stand?) is it alright to invite a woman outside for a "duel" if she uses physical violence or is unforgivingly abusive in her comments? Personally I think this would be taking things too far... as is this guide. Wouldn't it be better to leave it to the individuals concerned and let women know, if they don't like the way they are being addressed, to say so. Part of the development of humanity, surely, has been through verbal intercourse regarding points of dissatisfaction between the sexes. By making it a rule that these terms cannot be used is avoiding, rather than solving, the problem. I personally don't think the terms of endearment in the article are sexist in any negative sense... if they are I'd like to be told why they are by women that I'm in direct contact with, not simply told not to use them by invisible bigwigs.

Should we also outlaw the word huMAN?

PS. I've never in my life heard anyone use the term "clerkess".

Cock or a Hen, who gives a toss?

Hi Douglas #3. I haven't read through them all, so apologies if anyone else has made this point, but be glad you don't live in England, because then you'd have to deal with Cockermouth, Penistone and Scunthorpe.
And what about names? I would love to rechristen Peter Mandelson - Persondeloffspring?

I am really ashamed to admit this... but... I live in South Knightswood.. and Liz Cameron (Our illustrious Provost) is my Councillor...
Guess who WONT be getting any future votes from me???

#85 J
The Isle of Man is named for Mannanan Mac Lyr, the Celtic equivalent of Poseidon or Neptune. Maybe the 'anna' cancels out the 'man'?

Helen, if you feel so strongly about this gender business, don't you think you should change your name to something more gender neutral? Anyone have any suggestions?

#104 Cassandra: Aye and what about Alister Darling

Oh man! (oops) Seriously though, is it any wonder that people emigrate? What's the betting that a Labour victory in May will simply increase those numbers?

#107: Hilary? abbr. Hills as in moutains out of mole.....?

(Herm)Aphrodite?

Is the world going crazy?

James Joyce

Thank you Scotland for giving me a reason for getting up early on a Sonday (oops)

Wee Wullie (oops again) wee thingy

Any chance of a back to top button?

It does sound as if the initiators of this guide have themselves hangups about their own inadequacies and being in the position of power are using it to project the blame outwardly. Having said this, my own experience of working in a female dominated department (would using the word female in this context be politically incorrect) was that each addressed the other by their christian names. In this era (50s/60s) women did not openly swear so I was forced to increase my vocabulary to communicate more effectively. A problem that arose (with unisex toilets) was that the men were accused of spraying the toilet seats when, in fact, this was caused by women who choose not to sit on them properly, a moot point which proves that there is a difference between men and woman that others may not have noticed. Furthermore, I love it when the women in my life use the effectionate terms 'love' or 'darling' (& etc) when addressing me. What the authors of this report are seeking are 'smacked botties'; now that's not sexist, or is it?

Hembra( pronounced) embra means FEMALE in Spanish.
Where do you come from? embra!!! Well I suppose we do?

And in conclusion.............................................................................................................................

Hilary Benn.

We have been referring to police, hyro, plane stewards etc. for years as...non gender and it sure gets confusing for someone raised using man woman terms. But since over here LOVE is considered a term of endearment, I for one would not mind the term. If I were called a hen then what do you call the man...ROOSTER? Cock of the walk?

Y'all need to learn how to work around it just as most of us in the US have learned...for example MANHOLE cover is now a Utility Access Cover. Personell Manuals can be Employee Instruction booklets, etc. Get with it you rigid minded ejits!

To Helen #19.
But are you happy with with MANager, Helen?
This can all get too silly, can't it!?

Some of these comments have really brightened up my Sunday and brought a smile to my face! If only people wouldn't take these issues so seriously I'm sure the world would be a better place. If a term of endearment can be treated with such contempt and animosity the people who take offence must have some serious issues to deal with in their lives. Here in Lincoln I'm frequently called 'duck'. I'm not offended. I'm originally from Birmingham and us 'kids' were frequently called 'bab' (amongst other things! 'You little bugger' being one of the most frequently used expressions. Now there's something to think about!!!!)
With regard to Helen's job as a Centre MANager - as opposed to MANagerESS!!!!!! Hmmmmm!

Surely the only corect form of personal address is COMRADE.

To a lot of people (eg. 111, 113, 119....) Could we all PLEASE give reference to the message we are answering?!

#121 MerryJayne
I am totally pi$$ed off with us adopting stupid alternative names for things (frequently from America!) that already had perfectly good names to begin with. What's wrong with calling a manhole a manhole? That's what it is. What was wrong with the personnel department? I certainly didn't want to be a "human resource" as opposed to a member of "personnel".

Pandering to idiots who make this kind of crap up is the problem - not whether someone calls you "hen", "son", "lass", "laddie" or "love". If that's all the Cooncil have to with their time, find them a proper job - like filling in the holes in the roads!

oh hen, what aboot ma trifle, are ye sayin' ah canny use LADYfingers???

this is a catastrophe!!!

Hen is an old germanic word meaning woman cf Scandinavian kvinne, NE Scots Quine, Northumbrian hin/hinnie (the last now being used for both males and females. So, saying "Hello, hen." is the direct equivalent of "Hi, Mam" in the US or "How do you do, madam" Hardly offensive!

Will cartoon Scots now have to say "Hoots, person!"

The Germans get round the he/she problem by saying "one" as per the Queen. Pity the word is "man".

And if 113 is in reference to my comment about having never HEARD anyone use the term "clerkess".....!

(I'm presuming (presumptiously) that you've never met Joyce. Where did he use it anyway?)

With ref to #115
How about a button in the middle button, so there's no difference between men and women's clothes?

I wouldn't be seen dead in a flowery dress. But the boys can call me 'love' any time they like.
Cheers

I am going to stretch out in my chair and put my feet on the ottoman...oops, I mean ottoperson. Those who seek to define other's speach are control-freakoids...they will tell you how to run every facet of your life....just ask them. Control by these psychitzoids will not stop with language...

#126 JG
I'm with you on the subject of "human resources".

Refering to employees simply as a "resource" is one of the most offensive concepts I can think of.

I suppose at least it is gender non-specific! :-)

Recently in hospital the (Sister) Sorry for that, said, "Come here petal, how are you feeling today flower?".

Guess it was better than being called "That old weed in the bed over there"

Maybe some fine Lancastrian will sue the Glasgow Council for racism if they are told off for their language?

pc has been taken too far. no references to girls or ladies, not being able to ask for a black coffee or referring to a blackboard as a chalkboard for fear of offending minorities - it is a lot of tosh... the thin end of the wedge! bring back the days of the empire - people knew their place. britain for the british. if you don't like it bugger off to some god forsaken pc madhouse!

Hilarious and sad. Glasgow City Council gets PC...only 10, 15 years after America notices it, tries it on and discards it as worthless and useless. Typical Scotland-lagging-way-behind-America rubbish. I can think of a few things to call the wife of the First Drooling Two-Chin Idiot Sell Scotland To Donald Trump Minister, none of them 'hen' or 'love'.

And whoever drafted this illogical litigature legislation doesn't realise that women give just as good as they get - if not better - in the workplace as men, and treating women as soft wee lassies to be protected is actually a sexist and disempowering view of them in itself.

Think about it.

I worked for Edinburgh City Council a few years ago and remember one woman having a pretty tacky conversation about a live sex show involving a woman and a snake (seriously) she had seen in Ibiza. I thought it was pretty disgusting, and said so, but she just said "Doesn't bother me" and went merrily about her day. It's pure sexism towards men, especially in a mostly female environment, as most offices are.

This worthless legislation is just another way for women to assert their superiority in the office arena (maybe getting back at their husbands or boyfriends or lovers with it; this garbage is an act of passive aggression against men). Anybody who disagrees with me about women being just as bad, if not worse, than men, has obviously never worked amongst them for any length of time, or know that they say things that would turn your hair white.

This council crap is not real-world politicking, it's PC nonsense that bears no resemblance to the real world. And these pseudo-leftie New Labour 60s throwback PC-fascist clowns need to grow up. And get some REAL ideas about governing a country drowning in booze and drugs and immigration confusion and self-hatred and a dying Health Service. Language is not the enemy. Lack of vision for the future of the country is.

GROW UP. THIS IS GRIM GARBAG

Willie (69, by the way my favourite number!!) love it man! With you all the way.

Helen, well.... I, I, I, me, me, me, aye! There's some kind of complex buried in there.

But everyone we have a worse problem about to occur......I've just read "David" will soon be Sir David if the p.c. brigade get their way. For the love of God man, what total *hite. Lady Posh indeed!!

What about all the nurses, teachers and the other small "man" of society who work for years on a pittance! This Mr W. Anker... Sir indeed...... just goes to show that these titles are total *ish and all true Scot's should in future decline the few we get each year.

After all what does it matter any longer.... we're the "not so Great Britain" these days!!

Sandra#56 watch out: "complete dickheads" is surely sexist and unacceptable to Glasgow's thought police. I propose "complete genitaliaheads."

Absurd! Absolutely Absurd!

Willie - you think you've got problems :-)

#19 etc. etc. Helen

I am appalled that Helen has been shouted down by so many other writers in this posting. She is entitled to her opinion and has expressed it eloquently - which is more than I can say for many of the other writers here.

Your treatment of Helen amounts to abuse and I hope many of your comments will be deleted by the Scotsman proof-readers. Shame on those who have behaved disgracefully towards someone who is only seeking to contribute to the debate!

Language is extremely important and can often be used abusively, oppressively, bullyingly. Sometimes the bullying is veiled - for example, using terms of endearment in a sarcastic or inappropriate manner.

Workplace bullying is a highly corrosive problem, and Glasgow Council should be congratulated for any steps they are trying to take in the right direction.

Personally (the right word!), I object to being called "love", dear", "pet", etc, by people who are not dear to me. How dare people take such verbal liberties! I'm not stand-offish - but I do value my personal space. Others should have the good manners to respect this.

I don't think we need to re-write the Bible in the manner that some here have suggested. "Son of Man" and other gender-based Biblical expressions were symptomatic of their time. Are they anachronistic now? Well, the theologians are still trying to calculate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin ... so it may be some time before the Church catches up with society.

To sum up. Helen from Midlothian should be thanked for putting forward her views - which seem to me to have much validity.

To those who have responded to Helen with rudeness and taunts, I say - "haud yer wheesht".

Is there a man or woman among you who is person enough to apologise to Helen? We'll see!

Please don't confuse me with the other helen. The name is the only thing we have in common.

I have a great idea.

Why don't we just stop communicating with each other altogether? We could use some kind of non-partisan universally accredited sign language for really essential messages, such as "2 pints and a packet of crisps please love" or "Doctor it hurts when I do this..."

But otherwise it will save a great deal of time if we all agree to remain silent. There are so many things we do that apparently cause grievous offence to sensitive souls such as the OTHER helen... and then of course she's a churchgoer too, and an active one, don't want to offend one of those things.

Blether, blether, inclusive language, blether. I have never felt I was not part of mankind. I like it when a cute bloke calls me 'love' or 'darls'.

The problem with people like the OTHER helen is the total absence of a sense of humour. Does she know how to have fun? I so doubt it. There are a few of them about, too, not just her. (Can we say 'her' or should we stick to 'its' ?)

Sure does put you off christians, hey. Who'd want to be a part of that joyless bunch?? Sheesh. That's what He died for???? I think not.

Hasta luego, chickadees.
H

Women can say what they want in a workplace. men cannot. They get reported for it. And men know it. As do women. And they push it all the way.

Pure sexist garbage.

Religion?

http://www.bumc.bu.edu/Dept/Content.aspx?DepartmentID=481...

#69 - oops, hope that didn't offend anyone!
Good post man!

How come most of the writers here do not seem to understand what all this is about? Is it so difficult to just stop and consider for a moment whether there is any value in this? Are the stupid jokes to cover up feelings of inadequacy and thoughts of ‘I don’t need to change else that would be admitting I’m not acting in full awareness’ WAKE-UP, this is 2006 - If we are not going to try and improve ourselves now - WHEN?

If you are one of the people who claim “HELP, this is above me, this is political correctness gone MAD” Well, to my mind, I don’t think you are really thinking correctly. Its not okay to patronise people. We need to move forward to a much more humane society, a sensitive one, one where people care about each other and their feelings. I have always hated being called Love and Pet and I was SO offended when I first visited Scotland and was called Hen. Have you noticed that these terms are usually used by older people to younger people? And often older men to younger women? I think this is not because they are just being oldfashioned but because they want to patronise. Maybe people who don’t feel patronised by it have been brought up with it and have had to deal with it in their own way, perhaps by de-sensitizing themselves to it. It is time we thought a little more about things.
Personally I think it’s a dream come true that some people have the courage to try and make this world a safer place, and wonderful its actually started to happen in governments. Its time for a big change in the world, its sink like previous generations or swim with a new tide of awareness.

Patrick@47 - I had actually suspected that there could be 'relationship issues' there, (how p.c. is THAT!!) but was frightened to tiptoe over those eggshells. Whether the lady gets the Other Bus to Wimbledon whilst wearing Comfortable Shoes is no problem by me, and she's quite entitled to her view that All Men Are B******s - but she's no right to inflict her puritannical views on the rest of us.
And I think Mr Aishus at No.75 offers a very constructive solution to whatever ails her - in fact, I've just sent for one! Thanks Herb!!!

I wonder why the City Council did not address "Lookism". Lookism occurs whenever a man looks at any woman.

I really wish those silly twits would get over their penis envy.

Oh, and by the way, Helen and all you other women who think you are hard done by ... come and live in Canada (if you can get in) for a while and experience the reverse discrimination towards the white Anglo Saxon male! If you are a woman or visible minority (although WASPS are soon becoming the visible minority) you are given preferential treatMENt!

From the article:
"Some words and phrases such as 'manpower' and 'man the office' exclude or ignore women. Use inclusive terms like 'staff' and 'workers' and 'staff the office'."

OK - picture the scenario - you're on board ship and its dark - the person of unknown gender near you slips over the railing and falls into the sea. Your instinct is to shout "Man, overboard" and get help asap ........ but the ship is run by the likes of Glasgow City Council and you now have a really dilemma on your hands. "Person overboard, Human Being overboard - Gender non specific being overboard" - its going to be a complete nightmare .... not least of all for the poor sap in the water.

Oops ......... bet you're not allowed to say sap either!

Btw: Its only a couple of months ago that Newcastle council was saying their 'rubbish collectors' (not dustbinmen anymore!) couldn't call anyone pet, hinny, bonnie lass/lad or use any other terms of endearment on their round...... I think the council had to back down on that one!

Trevor#125: They were all replies to #107, calm doon man.

#149 Jenni, Ever heard the phrase "sticks and stones ...."? Surely money would be better spent on educating the youth on smoking, drugs, teen pregs etc etc. Not to mention putting a stop to sensless war. THAT is where we can improve society in 2006.

Wow... makes me happy my family got ran out of the place 250+ years ago.

In a Southern German town, some new and unusual public urinals have been installed: in the shape of a woman's mouth.
How about that one.

What kind of simple-minded trash puts such yuk-yuks in power? Is Glasgow so deprived of real problems and issues as its Council has nothing better to deal with than this sort or nonsense? If so, they really don't need the likes of Dizzy Lizzie and the Glasgow City Council on the public dole. Lads and loves, pitchforks and firebrands should be the order of the day in Glasgow!

# 155 Willie, Have you ever wondered why young people have to ‘make a statement’ - maybe they have never felt ‘heard’ in our ‘unaware’ society. I’m glad you agree that war is senseless. Sticks and stones can break bones that usually mend. Any sort of abuse to other people, emotional, sexual or verbal can leave scars that do not heal. Political correctness is one challenge that all people can take on board. There is not much we can do about wars in other countries run by governments we have no power over, like our own. But we can start to make an impact by changing ourselves and maybe that way we can change the tide of abusing others such as war and abusing ourselves with drugs etc. By the way its not money we need but a total change of attitude.

So when does a cool CHICK become a HEN and when you're HEN-PECKED what am I allowed to say as a victim of domestic emotional abuse. Furthermore if I cannot say HEN or CHICK why can I (seemingly) be allowed to say EGG. And why not ban all nicknames, all descriptive speech, metaphors, similes and allegory and while we are at it (Probably cannot say that either) all artistic expression. In fact lets ban all speech and looking at each other. Maybe we should all wear veils or even better not go out after all, GETTING ON with each other could be deemed by the loud few as a sexually degrading experience. We can just vote these high earning, sinister manipulators in again by postal vote! Are there any real and nice girls around anymore?

Isn't it sad that Helen is trying to remove sexist language from the church rather than trying to persuade a few more people to attend what is fast becoming a disappearing institution. The church will gain not onemore convert by changing the language that has worked for centuries.

Incidentally, either the Bible is the immutable word of the Lord (Cranmer word, not original) or it is not. The true scholars go back to the scriptures in their original languages and translate them accurately. If 'I am who I am' gave the Bible to us all then surely it is not up to some Glaswegian tart in the 21st century to rewrite it. If Helen is changing the word of God then she is making herself God. How presumptive can you get?

#149 Jennie.

Here's an idea Jenni. Don't visit Scotland. It's all about the intent hen. Most of those older men you find so offensive are the backbone of our wonderful country. There's nothing sweeter to my ears than a nice Scottish man calling me hen, pet, china, love etc etc. I'm sure you can find enough to be SO offended about south of the border. In fact I'm away to call my dad in Bridge of Weir who will say 'how are ye doin' pet? Brings a lump to my throat.

# 38 Sandra .. Steady on lass, be a bit less foul mouthed and show some literal decorum when using this forum, you come across like an obese, pint-swilling, combat-trouser wearing, swearing, sweating, nagging feline, if you want to take part in this debate, rinse yout mouth out first, and try again.

Will this apply to Muslims? If language is to gender neutral because of its pyschological impact does that mean dress needs to gender neutral. You can't allow Muslim men to wear the veil or that black tent as you'ld be unsure just what they were up to. So the whole lot has to go.
I'm sure after Helen has purged the Bible the Koran would be her next stop. But only if she get a couple of burly blokes as bodyguards.

What ever happened to, "Vive la differance." ? Women are women and men are men. Both are loves and pets to those who have enough life in them to venture the endearment. The old pendulum swinging too far the other way pushed along by idiots who have no balls or female counterpart. Now there is a task; develop female counterparts that are simply female to male. "That girl has some ovaries." "That boy has no balls." Hmmm. We need a better word for ovaries...in some cases balls will work. Ya ever played chess. I think it is time to equalize the statures of the King and Queen. Here the King is noting more than a trophy. The Queen has all the power. The Queen makes all the moves. Where is the fairness?

Leaders with bandaids should be shown the door. Leaders unable to make a decision should close it after them. "Let's make a rule for that. That will fix that."

My preference is to fill in both sides and learn how to apply the terms correctly: balls--ovaries, dickhead--____head or simply _____, steward--stewardess or you could use steward and ask, "Steward in the dress, could you get me a glass of water?"

Boy or should I say youth, What a load of crap. Crap, by the way works for both genders.

Having grown up wonderfully engaged in all things female and having been equally ripped apart in love as having ripped apart-hearts that is; I have watched sadly as one extreme has fostered another and unisex has repressed the awareness for la difference. Shouldn't we be learning how to appreciate and respect rather than hide?

145 Alisa Craig:

Living here in the "South" and having spent some time in England, I feel welcomed and warm when someone calls me pet or love. I stop and pay attention to them as when someone calls me sir. Ice is melted and I am face to face with someone who is offering themselves. Hey you can work, but I really love being called love. If you wish to live cloistered in your personal space, simply fade away. "Excuse me, human being of the female gender, could you show me the way to the office of hupersons resources? Come on lady, girl, sweetheart, love, pet, and all the endearing terms that make a society worth living in, lighten up.

I just want to thank you all for the biggest laugh on a rainy, leaky roof, morning, that I've had in 74 years. Especially the poor misguided Helen. What a hoot. In my 8 trips to, and around Scotland, I have been called many things which could be called 'terms of endearment' in other situations. But since I have always tried to say "please and thank you " at the appropriate time, the terms have resulted. Am I upset? Not in the least. Just proves that someone listened to what I said, whether a "waitperson" in the Beefeater, or a bus driver. Frankly I have never run across anyone as uptight as Helen, thank God, (if I'm allowed to say that).
To John 124, 'Comrade' has been used in the Royal Canadian Legion as a form of member address since its inception. Again, thank you all for the bellylaughs.

#159 Jenni, honey. I suspect you are one of these "do-gooders", a social worker or the like. Society has gone to the dogs (or bitches) because there is no discipline. A slap on the wrist for stealing cars, vandalism and more serious crimes doesn't cut it. Don't give me this BS about not being heard in an unaware society. Bring back the days of a guid clout roon the lug. That'll make them aware. " There is not much we can do about wars in other countries run by governments we have no power over, like our own" you say. Don't we have troops in Iraq and Afganistan?
I do agree that there needs to be a change of attitude though :-)

Please, what happens to the name of your paper? And what is the capital of the Philippines? And isn't perSON a sexist word? Among other questions...

149 Jenni

You speak of safety. When everyone is reduced to the anonimity of political correctness and nuances are verboten; how will you, "get an idea of who you are dealing with?" What is going on here is the sanitization of society. There are plenty of cults where everyone has given up their personality. Take a look at these groups if you want a glimpse of where we are going everytime some stupid politician is cajoaled by another stupid academic into "fixing" the problem with a wide paint brush.

It is good to know that all of Glasgow's serious problems have been solved so that the gender non-specific councilpersons don't have anything more serious to do.

There was a time when socialists were actually trying to do something real not this posing.

I think it would be a real shame if some of these 'pet' names died out because of vendettas like this. It is very interesting to wonder where the various different forms of address throughout the UK orginated. They are really a part of our history and culture and once they are eradicated and we are reduced to speaking (and thinking!) like robots, I feel it will be a loss for all of us.

The origins of pet and love are obvious but what about hen, hinny, duck, marra, chuck etc.

Maureen @ 162 uses the term 'china', for instance, I didn't know that was in use in Scotland and wonder if it has the same meaning as in London where it is Cockney rhyming slang for china plate = mate?

HELEN,

Hows it gone HEN?

If I was you I'd buy the Sunday Herald next Sunday after having had a long lie in bed.

When I was a wee boy (person) and I'd go round to see my Granny (mature person ) she would let me play with her record player. Now my dear old Granny only had two kinds of records, Jimmy Shand or the Alexander Brothers (or should that be Alexander PERSONS??).

As a 5 year old I fancied myself as a bit of a singer, so I took to playing the Brothers records and singing along - much it has to be said to my Grandpa's (different sort of mture person) amusement, though I don't think Granny took to my singing - "That fella can sing without your help" she use to tell me regularly.

One of my favourite songs to sing to was COCK OF THE NORTH. Does that mean that after all those years of being embarassed by my mother telling my girlfriends and later future wife about my childhood fondness for Scottish music I was actually singing the BLUES?

Helen from Midlothian - as a Catholic I just pray that you're Church of Sciotland, beacuse its people like you who destroy churches by turning religion into sociology

So if I understand the main issue correctly, we are not allowed to use language that denotes separatism in ore society. HENce the word SOLDIER should no longer imply that it is a MAN that goes to the front line of any war and gets his genitals blown off. It now means that there will be an equal number of male and female soldiers taking the bullets and bombs, gases etc etc. I also do not see the females making a fuss about fireMEN who risk their lives. To All ladies that agree with this article, become a fireperson or stand in equal number at the front line and risk your life for your belief - I for one may then take this strive for equality more seriously. (No offence to those ladies that may already do this, you have my respect, I bet you are real babes and would welcome that term of endearment as long as your efforts were respected and valued which I for one do)

#152 Willie from Canada ... absolutely true as far as reverse discrimination goes, but that's a whole other issue ... you just hang in there pet.

Having read most of the comments to this point, I'm hard put to know whether to laugh or cry ... on the whole, I tend to laughter. How sad that Glasgow has put out such a document; equally sad that (apparently) some women feel it's needed. Personally I'm in total agreement with #86 Darlin' from Fife who claimed a guid Scots' tongue to deal with any problem. Way to go hen! Me too.

PC in the written word has been around in Canada for years ... as a former educational editor in the publishing industry I've sweated blood trying to make textbooks genderless because the various Provincial guidelines require it. A thankless, in my opinion stupid, task ... but books will not be bought otherwise. And it does eventually reach the point where it almost becomes necessary to rewrite history.

Silly really..

While I also don't agree at all with Helen, it's a bit unfair of everyone to gang up on her like that. She is entitled to her opinion - even it appears a bit staid. If she doesn't like people calling her "pet" names can she not just say "please don't call me that"? (If things didn't change after that, I find a strategically placed kick in the crunchie works a treat!)

Of course, you know why we say " Amen " at the end of a prayer. It's because we sing 'hymns' and not 'hers' !!

Judgement! People need to use their judegement!

I think it's ridiculous when the government is trying to tell people what to say or not say. They are rtying to do the same in Canada, although the terms here differ too. We have a tendency to add the feminine at the end of a masculine word.

As for the "pet" "love" "sweetheat" denomination, I still call my kids that way (although I never use "pet"). For me they are more a familiarity than an insult.

So I believe that when you know someone enough, and you are familiar with them, you could use such terms, if they do not mind. When my friends call me "Love" I do not mind. If someone I don't know calls me "Love", I just think: "Who does he OR she think he OR she is? I do not like familiarities with people I don't know. AND that goes for BOTH sex.

Wake up governement! On this earth, there are MEN, Women and CHILDREN. Not just one sex. We give title to jobs so we know who we are dealing with. Knowing their gender is inevitably part of who we are dealing with. I will never approch a man and a woman the same way. It does not work. A mini skirt, high heel and a smile won't work on a women. And the bitching won't work with the men.

It's all about the art of communication. Some have it, some don't!

The governement has to stop interfering with the lives of its civilians, both male and femaile. Live and let Live!

Nice confessional Ailsa Craig (145) of your inner fears and feelings of presumably inadequacy and your self-hatred, the signs of which are fallen from you like confetti. Your edifying advice on the use of lanuage of which none of us appeared (in your view) to be aware will probably be appreciated. I don't suppose that you happened to notice that your 'slip' was showing?

Jenni (149); you sure do have a problem with status and in coming to terms with reality. Contrary to your cherished views the comments expressed by the majority are because others do care and any ridicule shown towards this peurile ruling reflects its nature.

What the egalitarians of Scotland don't want is the influx of neo-nazisim slipping in beneath the disguise of sexism that's been created by society's lilliputians. I have the feeling that most subscribers will hope that you find your Shangri-La and that you will go there, and remain!

One can only say that if Britain is to survive.'LIBERALISM' must be eradicated .

Don't these folk realise LOVE is a universal word and hopefull - has a wonderful meaning? Love is neither a sexiest or age related word, nor is it any other type the word-police, politically correct idiots with no feeling can come up with! Try tell a Lancastrian they can't say "Luv" or is our spelling of it exempt! It's used to honour women here, not demean them! Love Jenny

# 166. Kenneth.

Like you, I LOVE terms of endearment - but only when they are used by the right person in the right context. That is unlikely to be you, candidly.

I'm not cloistered and I'm quite light enough already, thank you.

I decided to contribute to this debate because I read through the comments and I saw a contributor called Helen (Midlothian) being verbally torn to pieces by a shower of semi-literates.

I have read better "spam" than some of the rubbish here.

Helen stated her case clearly and reasonably. Others may not agree with her - but that is no reason to make highly personal and offensive remarks about her personal life, professional life, sexual orientation, church membership, and so on. We know nothing about her personal life and it is no-one's business but her own.

Please note that the rules of this web-site say: "Don't be offensive".

Language IS important. As you know, the Nazis used the term "special treatment" when they meant "mass extermination". War-mongers still talk about "collateral damage" when they mean "civilian deaths". So we need to be aware of the real meaning of words and all their implications.

As far as I can see, Glasgow Council are merely trying to urge people to be careful and considerate in their dealings with others. Thoughtfulness and courtesy. Is that so much to ask for?

There is a saying: "I may not agree with someone's views - but I would defend to the death their right to express them." (Was that Voltaire?)

I honestly think the louts (and loutesses) who have made such offensive remarks about Helen should apologise to her, unreservedly.

I would tell you that you are "Philistines" - but I don't want to be non-PC about Philistines.

It all comes down to intent. If someone is calling someone "pet" with a smile on their face and kindness as their intent, then it's the smile and kindness which should count. If someone is using a term as an insult, meaning to demean (e.g., "that's so retarded" for something they think is stupid), then that's not cool. Smile back at the kind ones. Politely correct the idiots if you feel up to it.

Common sense and respectfulness.

I will admit to getting my hackles up when some young thing calls me "dear" though. You don't get to call somone "dear" until you've got a few years on you. Personal idiosyncrasy.

Read it (in full) and weep...

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?act=Attach&am...

We had the same thing here with my local Council in Yorkshire. They wanted to remove words like love and flower and then some. Basically every Yorkshireman's and Yorkshire lasses favourite words. Our relaxed way of speaking is a credit to the warmth of Yorkshire folk as it is to Scottish folk.

Line the do-gooders up against a wall I say!

Don't worry, bold Scots!

While the knife-banning, language-twisting, gender-hating, revisionist politically-correct ninnies think they may have won the day with their continuing PC drivel, their same PC drivel is enabling an entirely different state of affairs....

Soon all the council harridans will be wearing burhkas, and once Sharia law rolls 'round, only the Elect (and I don't mean elected) will be swaggering through the streets with longknives in their belts. It will be interesting to see how your elected twits will reconcile one set of PC garbage with the other. May the most virulent win.

Hope you distant kinsmen -er, kinsfolk- wake up before it's too late.

Like I said, it's all about intent. Now, if Scot or Jake call me pet they'll get a knuckle sandwich. Put the brakes on the piggery boys, you're losing the argument for us.

#186 Ailsa Craig: it was getting a bit dog packish, wasn't it.

Speaking respectfully, any time and any place, will never go wrong. That said, certain colloquialisms are part of certain cultures and I prefer to see them as just that. I heard (and enjoyed them) in Scotland, as I have in the Southern U.S. (where being called "hon" didn't bother me one bit - they say it so well there). We don't tend to use "endearments" in the same way in Canada. It used to be "sir" and "ma'am" in stores but not so much any more.

The geek in me had to do this:

Using the council's webite search engine I searched for two terms mentioned in the offending document:

"storeperson"
http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Search/search.htm?Query=stor...
The search returned 0 items.

"storeman"
http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Search/search.htm?Query=stor...
The search returned 53 items.

Hmm...

#42, the rest of the world will know that you are being brainwashed just like the rest of the world. We have the same problem here in the USA. Think it is bad now? Wait untill all the brainwashed kids in school and college get in the real world. The UN has it right. Break up the family, pretty well done, get rid of religion, they are working on that. Next is to teach the youngsters what they are allowed to say and think. The working generation, print guidelines on what they should (allow) to say. They are too independent to stop their thinking but we will die off.
All coming from the UN. I don't like to be called love or darling from a complete stranger which is what the customer is commonaly called at the check-out counter but I just shrug it off. What is missing is that yes there are times that words are inappropiate and shouldn't be used. Tell the person you don't like it. What is happening now is that a lot of people want to exclude any thing that would call attention to their gender. To them I say get one of the opposite gender, get completely nude, stand side by side in front of a mirror. If you don't see any differances then you are beyond help.

Ailsa I have just read through most of the Posts here & like you I am appalled by the personal abuse given to Helen. The ASSUMPTIONS regarding Helen`s status, sexuality and religion have no relevance to honest debate.

David from Texas & your "penis envy".... USA psycho-babble!

Liette from Canada, if you don`t want " Government to interfere in peoples" lives,' what are you suggesting.... Anarchy, Survival of the fittest?

What seems to have not been highlighted here is that euphemisms are constantly in use by way of avoiding public censure. The problem will never be identified by attacking the word since as soon as one word is ourlawed those that have a derogatory intent to their language will simply find another word that will soon be recognised by all (with that level of consciousness) to have ANOTHER meaning. GAY is an example one upon a time had a totally different meaning to how it is used today. The real issue therefore is the INTENT behind the word used. Crucifying the English language will not help. People can be most offensive with tone even when thay may use the word 'sorry' or 'please' it is the intent and the state of mind behind the word, NOT the word. Now since we are all free to think and feel what we choose we just have to accept that some people are rude some are friendly and some are not skilled enough with words to say exactly what they mean and are therefore oblivious, perhaps unintentinally upsetting some people when they speak. We simply have to get along and develop a greater sense of self so that the comments of others do not cause us to lose our own equilibrium. Leave the language alone, its innocent and is our birthright!

19. Helen, Midlothian - I would be interested in your comments now the debate has brought up some valid points (ignore the personal comments) I value your opinion and have made no personal comments myself. I feel we will not move on in this discussion until you make a further constructive contribution.

Man in the moon... jings....dis that MeAn ...MANaging MANagers MANning MANhole MANfacturing in MANchester MANdate gerMANs in gerMANy MANchuria MANgle MENopause MENtal HENhooses ....get the drift ? ....aMEN.....

#168 - Willie
I dont think I worded that statement very well. I meant to say that ‘I’ and others like me, cannot stop our own country going to war, as in Iraq, Afganistan, as you say, that is, unless all our soldiors agreed with us too.
Im glad we agree on something, but why are you calling me honey? Are you trying to patronise me?

I agree we need discipline, we need boundaries, we need to show boundaries on how we like to be addressed, notwithstanding that those with a chip on their shoulder will cross those boundaries gleefully.

#162 Maureen,- you sound offended. I think its lovely that your dad calls you pet, provided you like that. Personally I wouldn’t like my dad nor your dad to call me Pet. Futhermore, if a council member called me pet, I would be outraged, no matter which country I was in. By the way I didn’t say that older scottish men are offensive. You read too much into what I said. Maybe you are more sensitive than you realise.

#170 - Kenneth - This has gone right over my head - can you speak in more simple terms please, so that I can understand you?

#186 Ailsa Craig - As Ailsa says, terms of endearment should be kept in the right context, ie. unless you are a boyfriend, girlfriend, partner, very good friend, please call me by my name.

A lot of people find it difficult to express themselves and it is easy to slip into being abusive and trying to offend, patronise, put other people down, and in this way try to make themselves appear in a better light. Its much more difficult trying to be honest and unabusive.

Sorry to point out the obvious but a lot of you mention the words PERSON as a substitute. but PERSON has the word SON in it, So I don't that woulbe a suitable substitution.

Oh dear! Oh dear! What is a PER to do?

#193 Maureen

Hi there PET. I once knew a Catholic girl called Maureen from near Skelmorlie (that's on the Largs road). It wasn't/isn't you was/is it?

That particular Maureen was never going to be frustrated!!

# 197. Janis.

Thank you for your support. Much appreciated.

I have asked "The Scotsman" to remove the offensive remarks aimed at Helen (Midlothian).

Unfortunately, there were so many of them, that it took me much of the afternoon. However, it is well worth weeding out the offensive postings from this web-site because, if we don't, it will disintegrate even further. Some contributors are already plumbing the depths. Enough is enough.

Language IS important, and we should support people who seek to maintain good standards. Glasgow City Council included.

We don't need to agree with people, but we should still treat them with decency and respect.

For the semi-literates, I recommend the book "Eats, Shoots and Leaves", by Lynn Truss. Even commas count, when it comes to clear communication.

(Or should that be "Eats Shoots and Leaves"?)

Ask yourself why is Scotland being Americanised bit by bit. Last time I looked out my back door I could still see scottish scenery. Do our senior CIVIL SERVANTS live in the same country or even on the same planet, makes you wonder at times !

#197 Janis

No, I do not suggest anarchy. And I am surprise that you would think so. Government are suppose to be there for the people. Laws are inevitable because there is always a bad seed somewhere, and they need to protect the people.

It's when the governement start telling you what to do in your own home, or in the present case, telling you how to speak, I believe that the government is reaching too much out of their mandate. Don't you think so?

What I love(ed) about the Celtic people and the English (of the past) is that they were a feisty, rebellious bunch that lived in no ones shadow and would not have anyone tell them what to do or to say - it has made the peoples of this land most formidable. Dare we look our forefathers in the eye in the wake of our submission to such interference and controlling by weak-willed party politicians that may well have personal reasons for this meddlesome unproductive infringement on our hard-fought-for freedom.

Well, perhaps some southern manners are in order, then...

I apologize to ya Helen, if I offended ya...you do have a right to speak yer mind. And as yer probably the prim high-collar type, I suppose the other won't be a problem!

Ya really do need to get some humor there, chickadee!! and them other pc folks, as well!!

Respect is a thing earned, not demanded. Unisexing words doesn't change anything!!

Apologies and a low sweeping bow to ya Maureen #193, I really was only tryin to help!! ;)

Ailsa #204 so much for free speech, if Helen can state her opinion, then why can't we?

#202 Jeremy: that made me smile, thanks.

#201 Jenni I'm more likely to be outraged by the fact that the world is still full of starving children, battered women, people who want to blow me up on top of a double decker. Compared to these getting mad at being called pet just seems downright - I'm sorry, I have to use the unpc word - er, stupid. I'll tell all my friends you think I'm sensitive. I've been trying to tell them that for years.

Scot, it is me, and I think you meant castrated. LOL!! Small world eh?

Liette No I don`t think so completely. In this case there is no mention of Government " telling people what to do in their own homes"

Personally I really don`t mind being called Darlin, Sweetheart or whatever by strangers. Often makes my day!! But...... in the hospital. where I work. a directive has been sent out asking staff not call patients by there first names, unless requested. A lot of older people resent being being so addressed by young "slip of of a girl" nurse, or "schoolboy" Medical Student. This is understandable, & as commented by other Posters, it is the context that matters.

Thanks GG (190) for the actual reference which does not cite any authers other than the GCC. The document is clearly sexist and discriminatory and intellectually embarrassing. Am I the only man that has at times been referred to as 'dear', 'love', 'darling' or had my bottm felt by females and some of those practices having taken place at work or to be debagged by a group of women while at work all to my delight and pleasure although, at times, a little embarrassment? Obviously I am not, so why the need to discriminate as this document is doing.

One of the features of which most of us are aware (but seemingly not all) is that there is a physical difference between men and women and each of us gives due regard to the other's gender but usually treat the other as we too are treated by them. It is important to recognise those features and to pay due regard to them.

As a minor analogy, as a child I never became confused between whom my mother was nor whom my father was and each was treated differently but with due respect. It is so fundamental to give cognition to this difference, and arrogance by anyone seeking to ignore it.

Whenever I am conducting business with someone of the opposite sex then I am treating them with regard to their gender but always politely. It is an inevitable feature that cannot be ignored and owing to the differences in our sexuality so each gender needs to be treated according to their biological needs which has nothing to do with inequality or personal 'hang-ups'.

The meaning of the title 'Ms' is that this woman is available sexually to all and sundry, while 'Miss' means that she continues to remain unattached and 'Mrs' that she is married woman. If any woman seeks to advertise her availability sexually then I doubt if any man will object by for a woman to permit others to so address her without her consent is offensive to good taste.

Just a few passing thoughts on a fatuous subject.

#199. GG.

I have now read the pamhlet in full. Why are you weeping? The pamphlet is quite innocuous. In fact, much of what it recommends is already in common usage. Or increasingly so.

Glasgow City Council are merely seeking to "level the playing-field". Perhaps they will bring out other pamphlets in respect of men, gays and lesbians, the elderly, children and ethnic minorities. Fairness and good manners should apply in the treatment of all people. That is only democratic. (Why is GG upset by that?)

The expression "storeperson" will probably not catch on. But we could say "storekeeper" instead. The English language is always developing. So, if we don't like "chairperson" or "spokesperson", we can surely think of something that sounds better.

The main thing is to strive for a fairer, juster and more democratic society. That's why New Labour were elected, wasn't it.

Oh, dear, I think the electorate has been disappointed yet again!

If you think this is daft then the next time a boss talks of manpower economies ask him if he means no women will be made redundant - jusging by the NHS I think not ?

#204 Ailsa Craig: loved that book. When a book about language and grammar can make you belly laugh.....

I listen to the language/dialogue on many tv programs and think 'this is the culture that our young folks are having spewed at them'. Typical plot: smart, capable *empowered* child takes control of entire family and saves bumbling, inept adult parents from sure disaster by employing sarcasm, rudeness and disrespect.

If people could only speak respectfully to each other, even when they disagree, perhaps it would go a long way to removing the need for disenfranchised people to go to the extremes that they do, to have their voices heard. Guess I'm a dreamer, eh?

Helen #19 (and elsewhere) You are not a MANager, you are a PERSONager - as well as being sad. Time you went back to the kitchen sink.

Philip #22: How dare you use the term "huMANities". New speak (or Helenspeak) dictates you should use the term "huPERSONities.

BTW, the female (OOPs, sorry feminine) head of the City Of York Council, namely MRS janet Hopton, is traditionally referred to as LORD MAYOR. How do you feel about that Helen? Still want to change hundreds of years of British history?

157 Hamburg

Unfortunately it is people such as yourself that create the extreme that brings us to this opposite extreme. Why a woman's mouth? I am still, after 58 years, a glass half full kind of guy. I still believe that people like yourself can be dealt with without losing the more wonderful aspects of human interaction. You need to think seriously about what you wrote.

Having lived in Glasgow most of my life, I am well versed in the local terms of speech, as in endearments which are used, its humour and of its "Patter"
Each country and regions in these countries, have there own particular ways of speaking which adds colour to their heritage and this they should be proud of. (apart from terms which are a bit too colourful!!)
Writers strive to write stories and poetry which reflect their speech and traditions.
It is sad that the Council have felt it has had to step onto the Bandwagon and to follow this attention seeking trend.
Perhaps they should remember their slogan that
"Glasgow's Miles Better" and try to retain the individuality which belongs to them.
A waste of money and I feel that it is 'much ado about nothing'.
Time to reread George Orwell's 1984 -perhaps a future of robotic - like individuals or should I rephrase , non indivdiduals will be the answer.

# 208. Jake.

You can indeed have free speech on this web-site - provided you express yourself reasonably.

The rules of this web-site are that you cannot express your opinions in an offensive manner.

I understand that offensive postings will be removed by "The Scotsman". But many of the contributors appear to have forgotten that!

I hope "The Scotsman" will act appropriately and remove the worst offenders at least.

#213 Robert: Ms. is also used by those women who don't want their married or unmarried status to have any import, or when it is unknown. It's common usage here to address a letter to a Ms. Jane Doe when nothing has been specified, rather than sending it to Jane Doe. It has become so common that it doesn't have any political connotations.

Alisa Craig 186

Alisa, if you were to fire a term of endearment at me, I would first relish this attempt at being human, vulnerable and strong. How wonderful it is to receive a wink, smile, or any other sign of a beating heart. If you need to, advertise your desire to have the rest of the world stay out of your personal space. Perhaps a drooping head covered somehow would do. How something is said is far more important that what is said. Language is a living thing. There are relatively few words and names that cannot be used with all respect. I would still welcome some one calling me pet than, "you there". Take away all of this and think about what you will have left. There will be no vehicle for intimacy. Intimacy is the only way we will earn and give each other respect.

#19 Helen,
You can't "outlaw sexism" any more than you can outlaw racism or any other ism. Prejudice is an attitude of heart and changing laws won't change that.

Perjudice, in whatever form it takes, is born out of fear and all that is achieved with this kind of politically correct speech control is more fear.

# 213 - Robert
Women choose to give themselves the title Ms to match the male equivalent Mr. If men do not want or need their title to be changed when married then why should women? It certainy doesn’t mean you want sex with everyone, that strikes me as a very wishful and perverted thought. It simply means we are women who do not see the necessity of walking around with the label on, ‘I am married’. Its no big deal to be married or not, you still have the same amount of pervs to deal with, wedding ring or not.

Can we expect "Cowcaddens" to now be renamed
"bovinequadrupedofnonspecifiedsexcaddens"?

#100. Heimdall.

Yes, I wish Helen (Midlothian) would come back and progress with the debate. However, I suspect she has gone off in disgust - and who can blame her?

I see "The Scotsman" web-site as being an enjoyable forum for intelligent debate - potentially.

But many of the contributors today seem to be hiding behind their pseudonyms and venting their cowardly and pathetic dirty-mindedness. That is totally inappropriate here!

Helen (Midlothian). Please come back. But do so using a pseudonym so you don't attract more flak!You obviously stand up for your beliefs. Good luck to you!

PS - Ailsa Craig is my married name. Should I change it? (I'll have to get my husband's permission!)

"You can't "outlaw sexism" any more than you can outlaw racism or any other ism. Prejudice is an attitude of heart and changing laws won't change that."

Jennifer @ 223

What you seem to be saying is that society should allow racism and sexism and any other derogatory behaviour to individuals and do nothing about it. I may have misread your post but that is how it sounds.

A decent, tolerant society has to have laws against discrimination, otherwise, attitudes will never change.

Personally I love it when my Glasgow relatives greet me on the phone with "How ur ye, Hen" It brings back so many lovely memories, and has a friendly connotation for me.

As for PET, that one irritates me, ugg.
Over the weekend a canadian member of parliament called his ex-girlfriend a "Dog"...women voters are calling for his resignation.
I'd say this is the most unpolitical thing he's ever done.

Does a policeman become a policeperson? What will they call a yachtsman? We have this stupidity here too.

The council have a valid point, some language is used in a demeaning fashion. But surely "mankind" is inherently gender biased as is the word "human". Should I now feel demeaned when women address me as "love" or "dear". And when will the council address women's demeaning use of "manflu" to describe a cold when the sufferer is male. Or derisory references to the alleged inability of all men to multi task simply because they are men. Naturally no-one will be allowed to refer to anyone "having the balls" to do something or other. This is clearly inherently demeaning to women, implying that they are incapable of bravery equivalent to that of suitably endowed men.

I have been regaled with laughter reading these comments! Better than the Sunday funnies by half!

Since I live in "The most enlightened city in America"

http://cafeutne.org/towns/ithaca.html

I may have some insight into the growing movement toward mandated rectitude of thinking.

However, rather than impose my personal views on the readers of this discussion, I challenge them to consider which of the following statements is true:

1. "It is the purpose of government to shape the thinking of its constituents."

or

2. "It is the duty of government to be shaped by the thinking of its constituents."

I don't think it can be both, but I may be wrong…

#230 George

In NZ I know you have a lot of sheep, but a pig's a pig ..... so why complicate the matter?

Intelligence measures things by their differences, contrasting qualities and similarities which are often expressed by way of colourful and even poetic language. I for one, would not like everyone to address eah other as comrade (and I am sure 124. John, that you meant that ironically). But for those merchants of doom that want everyone to be neutered to be the same in language, why are they not insisting that all workforces are dressed the same - i.e. neat uniforms not high heels, short skirts and perfume that you can smell before you can enter the room - surely that is a mixed signal that encourages a more relaxed and informal or familiar response from males. Work is work and has nothing to do with parading oneself with all the 'signals' of being 'available' to courtship - CONSISTENCY of argument is vital. Personally I am not bothered by phrases of familiarity or dress, but a rule or law must stand up to objective argument and test. I believe this type of imposed ruling has more subversive undertones of a political will to bind intelligence and dull the thinking process of people making them more easy to control and manipulate. Furthermore, I would prefer to be addressed by someone who shows directly how they think and feel - it is feedback to me as how I deliver myself and am communicating and where, if necessary, I need to make changes. It is better by far than being addressed with sanitised language whilst the person is really thinking, feeling and percieving something else.

Well, what sort of country are we living in? The word First minister is wrong because as a useless puppet the title should say last minister. If you were looking for the person in charge of say a school would it be correct to say head master, head mistress or just head. Oh women wouldn't like that either. What is correct?

Before they go to the bitter conclusion I think the councilloers should refer themselves to a good dictionary wherin they may find that a man's person (and possibly a woman's or should it be woperson's) can mean the genital organs - might this not be politically incorrect therefore or be an ultimate insult? Puerile puking stupidity all!

It's not the sentiments per se of the document I disagree with, it's the fact that sanctimonious, mediocre civil servants use documents - and ultimately regulations or laws - like this to enforce their hypocritical standards on the rest of us. We've all been working in mixed gender environments for years and we all know what behaviour is appropriate and we act accordingly. Maybe the semi-literate author of the document will get a promotion and a pat on the back (not literally of course) and the council will be able to bask in the reflected warm glow that they fixed a problem that was never there in the first place.

For all who see this as a waste of time and resources, get used to it. These people have already won the battle here. We now have Firefighters, Mail Carriers, Flight Attendants and Servers. Calgary City Council has been fighting about the term "Alderman" for years. PS it will only get worse.

Well, us common folks will just have to stop using LOVE,MATE,BUDDY,PET,PAL ETC, and just settle for HEY YOU.

Funny thing, I seem to recall being called 'love' and 'pet' a few times by women working in shops and restaurants etc when I was in Glasgow. Don't they realise men have names too?

Not that it bothered me, anyway.

Well my DEARS at the psuedo intellectual thought police you have outdone yourselves most of the sane amongst us had already figured that your world is banal and pointless,
Thanks for proving it!
Unfortunately good manners will fall as a result if this idiocy, Reap the whirlwind

#229. Gordon.

I don't know Helen or Jenny. Yet you refer to us as if we are a group. We are not. I am contributing in my own right, thank you.

Our society has many, many problems. You have referred to debt, murders and assaults in the City of Glasgow. The Council has been elected to put in place policies and other measures that will ameliorate (or, better, solve) the city's problems. They do this "according to their lights", as the saying goes.

It seems that the publication in question aims to encourage a culture of fairness, courtesy and consideration in the workplace. That sounds like a good idea to me.

I DON'T agree with EVERY word of it. But I do agree with SOME of it, and I applaud what I believe it is aiming to do.

Why have you accused me of immaturity? You have no grounds for this. Possibly, you are immature yourself. Why else would you feel threatened by other people's reasonably expressed opinions?

Scottish society is hardly a "utopia". But it isn't a "distopia" either. We should value what is good in our society, and work towards social progress where we can.

If you don't like the current Glasgow Council and what they do, you need to lobby your Councillor to make your views known, and to use your vote at elections as you think best.

A wee message to Wee Jack,
Seems your Bernadette is mixed up in this.. not good for re-election..What do you say?..Bonnie person!!

It seems not have occurred to our politically correct friends - oops, sorry, colleagues - that language and thought are not the same thing, they are intersecting circles.

Thus racists talk ironically about "our coloured brethren" - OK, I know it's sexist - which looks endearing but means the opposite when you hear it.

P.S. I anyone allowed to be friendly anymore?

#204 Ailsa Craig. That was the old definition of a Kiwi: Eats roots, shoots, and leaves.

Well I find it hard to understand why a Scot (whatever the gender) who is being politically correct in Scotland would object to being called "Hen". It is after all derived from the Scottish Gaelic word "fhein" (pronounced hen) meaning yourself. As in the phrase "Ciamar a tha thu fhèin?" ("How are you yourself?" )

My grandmother called everybody "Hen" if she liked them especially if she thought they needed sympathy. (As in "Come awa in hen, and I'll mak' ye a cuppie").

It is not the words fault that some folks with no knowledge of its origins, mixed it up with a bird. So why the need to through it out?

i am FEMALE and like my pals saying hen or dear or lass. very very few men have addressed me as such but i wouldn't mind at all. i like it! but then i'm a dying breed...a real woman and not scared of words!

I notice that there are few comments by women and that the men who have commented seem vehemently opposed to the elimination of sexist terms. Honestly, if one of my co-workers called me "doll, hon, love, babe, etc." I would be shocked. It's not a matter of language police, it's a matter of equality. If you do not consider women to be equals then it follows your language will reflect that. If you do consider women equals then please don't demean them.

Here Here Jock I like your style.

Working in a nearly all male occupation for the last 25 years I have been referred to as lady, woman!, the lady painter, and I have been come on to and flat asked to "do it" by my co workers. I have heard some of thee most off color jokes and conversations one could. It's the way it is on construction sights. Somehow, it just doesn't bother me enough to try to change the men's ways. Long time ago I came into their world.....And I suppose I am thick skinned. If it bothers me that much I say, "Hey, don't talk like that, you're grossin' me out!" or I just go work somewhere else on sight.

Funny, the only thing that's ever really made me think that a man is a moron is when I've done a good job and they say, "GOOD GIRL!" That makes me feel like they are addressing a dog.....which I'm not....so even that provokes no response....

245. Jackie, Scotland - Thanks for the elucidation - EVERYBODY please take note.

For the guys who think this is funny, it won't be in 2 years when every self rightous, narrow minded, martyr in their own mind, womyn decides to complain about any man who dares to offend them at work. As was said above, womyn complain about men's behaviour at work, men do not dare complain about womyn.

I do not mind being called lass, girl, hen, doll,etc. But, I think it is about time Jack and Bernadette left us Scots to live our own lives.

PC is wrong!!

Try it on me and I will take YOU to court!!

I run my own company.. so, try it, PLEASE!! I'm thinking of my profits here!!.

Liberals have already destroyed the USA. Don't let it happen to your country! With all our political-correctness, no one here can even communicate any more. Diversity is worshipped, but no one is supposed to mention race, gender, religion, culture, or disability. For those who hate America, your wish is coming true. We are imploding from the inside with the aid of politicians and people who are offended by everything.

Two things come to my mind when I read this: firstly, in many other European countries you would be urged to use th equivalent of '...ess' in order not to be sexist (since the manager would undoubtedly be the (alpha)male).

Secondly, I really do wonder, if Glasgow City Council and in particular their p.c. senior figures would be all happy if all their manpower would, by decree and over night, turn into workers power...

255. Anne - Its reassuring to know that there are still people like you on the planet and even more reassuring that you exist despite the US experience. I shall watch out for your further contributions.

I think it is lovely to be addressed as love or pet, terms of endearment serve to make the workplace more comfortable, and thus more work gets done..

What irritates me is the murder of our wonderful language - and all the crass ignorance that underlies it. I'm sorry, but that was what I meant by urging some people to go back to school. Or am I wrong to be angered by people who MANgle the English language, however good their intentions?

Take all this nonsense about the word MAN.

Those who think that the word is gender-specific need bonking on the head - I'm using the b-word in its old acceptance - with an OED. Or my Websters will do.

The basic meaning is - I quote "1a: a member of the human race: a human being: PERSON"

If you look at the etymology - i.e. where the word came from - that is the only meaning, although it is suggested that it may also have come from the old English Gemynd - mind. My dictionary does go on to say "now generally used of males except in general or indefinite applications with collective adjectives or in the plural". It then quotes David Hume: "All men, both male and female..."

Meaning 1b (1) is the human race: mankind and 1b (2) ....... homo sapiens......

The "male human being" is a subsidiary meaning...

Perhaps we should throw out the English language and replace it with Japanese, which doesn't go in for "he" or "she". Be that as it may, having a gender-free language doesn't make for a less macho culture...

Oh, I'm male and getting old now. I've lived in many places; but, all my life, whenever I've been in anywhere in Britain, I've received endearments from strangers - and always rather liked it. Something warm and friendly and we're-all-in-this-together about it. I never, ever had the feeling that there was any lack of respect behind it. And this is the first time I've ever come across the idea that there might be anything sexist about it.

There is a very English way of putting people down o-so-politely, without a word, a smile, misplaced... Now, I don't really

We went through that phase years ago. Believe me, it's temporary. The "authorities" dictate this PC nonsense, the public ignores it and it goes away. As for empowerment, anyone is empowered as much as they're willing to work for. The problem with the gender feminists is they don't care to work for it, they want it given to them regardless of performance.

I just don't see how you can legislate the way people talk. You can outlaw sexual harrassment in the workplace (the real, not the imagined). But how silly to make some words legal and others illegal. You can't even do that with profanity. As an employer, you can set guidelines that prohibit vulgarities aimed at women (or men) in the place of business. However, once off the clock, people are going to do whatever they please.

We women need to keep fighting for equal employment but should also realize that if we don't want to be treated like "hot babes" on the job, we cannot be "hot" at work. Save it for the clubs.

I believe change can be achieved by education -- not by legislation that micromanages people's lives. The Council can ask people not to speak in a certain way, but they cannot make it against the law.

Liette#181 & 206: Hi, it's a bit off the subject but it doesn't seem to bother the rest so I'll just say what a small world it is. My wife's uncle and family also live in Beaconsfield, on Wakefield Road. Regards.

Jackie (245) Thank you for pointing out the origin of "hen". The example you use may also be worded more formally as "Ciamar a tha sibh fhein?"
In navigation traing during the war I flew around the Irish Sea a lot and Ailsa Craig was always a welcome sight. That seems to hold for this site also!

To Ailsa Craig (#145)

Please confine your remarks to subjects about which you know something. Your 'understanding' (which is remarkably slight) about what theologians discuss and do rather disqualifies you from any worthwhile discussion of this topic, I'm afraid.

It seems to me that some people will go to great lengths to back up their predjudices by, for example, saying that the word hen comes from some questionable Gaelic source.

The word hen in fact comes from a much simpler source. It is an abbreviated form of the female name H(el)en as used in the Lothians.

An example of its use is "Aw right hen?"

This can be verified in the following article from a local newspaper in that area.

http://heritage.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=1391&id=6...

Here in Oz we use the gender-non-specific "Mate" by way of endearment. We also use "Love", "Lovey" and a number of other terms. "Yah Little Beauty" and "Go, Ya Good Thing" are also popular.

Only hairy-legged, ugly skanky "wimmin" in Newtown (a suburb of Sydney inhabited almost exclusively by pinko ****holes) object.

You cannot equate being subjected to involuntary genital mutilation with being called "Hen", you stupid bloody "wimmin." THAT is oppression.

If that is all that Glasgow cooncil can come up with in a city with such serious problems then the populace should riot! How much did this latest crock of ***t cost?

I don't mind being called a lady/or anything else that sounds nice. I like a door held, and I like a bit of charm from a man...I can drive a bloody truck, a tank and anything else with wheels. I can shoot, ride a horse, and do most things a bloke can do, apart from pish standing up. Which I envy, especially on long car journeys......

What I DO NOT NEED is some sour-faced baggage telling me what I want to be called!

Bridget, awa' hame and mak yer mannie's tea! The wee fat bastard looks like he could do with a good root as well!

Aye, and "Hen" is also an abbreviation of the male name Hector (as in "Hen" Broon.)

I entered this discussion during this afternoon because I was appalled to see a contributor called Helen (Midlothian) being victimised by other contributors. They did not share her opinions, it seems, and they resorted to denigration, innuendo, insults and abuse to clamp down on her. We have not heard from Helen from some time, and I can only guess that she feels bullied off the web-site.

Shame on all the intolerant people who did this! What have you proved? Only that there are a lot of political battles still to fight. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance - and always has been.

As I said earlier, "I may not agree with someone's opinions, but I would defend to the death their right to express them."

It seems to me that "political correctness" is okay when it is appropriate and sensible. What we do NOT need is "political correctness gone mad". That's the difference.

Anyway, I must go now. My husband wants me to go to bed.

#57. Herb (Aishus). No products from the Ann Summers web-site will be needed!

To Helen of Midlothian

Glad you've read the Bible! However, the NRSV, by substituting 'non-gender specific' language in its translations does the originals a disservice, rendering many passages theologically and linguistically both confusing and inaccurate. As for the Bible being 'non-sexist', perhaps you would care to read, for example, 1 Timothy 2:11-15 -in any version you care to open. Enjoy!

Why is it that some women, but only a few thankfully, seem unable to celebrate the differences of the sexes without becoming paranoid, threatened, strident, and garrulous? What would this reaction suggest; possibly that they are a tad over-sensitive and hence the purpose of the guidance on appropriate lanuage usage?

I think everyone is entitled to make known their opinion on anything and unless their opinion is totally ridiculous they do not deserve to be ridiculed. Helen is no exception. But I do not understand what point you are trying to make Helen. If you FEEL disempowered by the language in which you are addressed then you ARE disempowered. But not by the language. You are simply disempowered from within yourself. If you have power noone can take it away fom you with a few words. If you feel offended by the way you are addressed, then let it be known to the person addressing you. Show your power. To take up cudgels on behalf of all women, many of whom are quite happy with the status quo, smacks of arrogance. But, of course, that is only my opinion. The old Fife saying, "ca' me anything you like as long as dinnae ca' me ower", comes to mind in this case.
We should bear in mind that GCC has stated that the booklet is only a guideleine for staff and that noone will be disciplined for transgressing these guidelines. Surely it is a harmless albeit worthless exercise. Public money has been wasted on worse things (enforcing pub closing time for instance).
tgm

Well posted Ailsa, off you go to bed now.... enjoy!!

My husband is lusting after Helen Mirren, is Prime Suspect not on in Scotland?

# Helen "The Bible isn't a sexist book" ??????
Obviously you haven't read the old testament. It's full of sexist discrimination. Even when God is choosing his much beloved animal sacrifices he always prefers a male animal burned (I believe He thinks they smell better than female ones) The Bible is perhaps the most misogynous book ever published, with its selling of daughters, getting the servant girls pregnant, discriminating against menstruating woman and women after birth and so on and so on. Plus the stoning - we can’t forget the stoning. Oh and the seizing of virgins after pillaging a city (only virgins God instructs the others to be slaughtered.)

"For auld lang syne, my dear,
For auld lang syne.
We'll tak a cup o' kindness yet,
For auld lang syne.

"And there's a hand, my trusty fiere!
And gie's a hand o' thine!
And we'll tak a right gude willie waught,
For auld lang syne."

OR

"O, my luve's like a red, red rose
That's newly sprung in June.
O, my luve's like the melodie,
That's sweetly play'd in tune.

As fair art thou, my bonnie lass,
So deep in luve am I;
And I will luve thee still, my dear,
Till a' the seas gang dry.

Till a' the seas gang dry, my dear,
And the rocks melt wi' the sun;
I will luve thee still, my dear,
While the sands o' life shall run.

And fare thee weel, my only luve!
And fare thee weel, a while!
And I will come again, my luve,
Tho' it were ten thousand mile!"

Shame on you GCC. Come next May the good citizens of Glasgow will send you home.....to think again.

#275. Gordon.

Don't be silly. Good night!

Another example of waste of tax payers money. . .down the drain. Didn't take them long to produce that. . .but it took GCC 30 years to back pay low wage employees, only as a result of a court case.

Tell us how to speak? What next?

Sorry for being picky but there's no such word as noone. Dyou mean no one?

#273. Gordon, Germany
Sorry for being picky but there's no such word as noone. Dyou mean no one?

Almost forgot to congratulate Andrew#277. . . well done pal!

The whole f*****g country is going f*****g crazy! What on Earth is going on - do the people that come up with this crap have nothing more to do with their time? I am a woman and have never been offended by anybody calling me any of these names AND I have NEVER felt left out or ignored if someone says "manpower" or "man the office". ALL THIS PC NONSENSE MUST STOP NOW!

Being from Texas, hardly a day goes by without my being referred to as 'dear' or 'honey' or occasionally 'sweetie,' both over the phone and in person, usually more often by females than males. Those terms of endearment just get shrugged off because the truth is that the person saying them doesn't even realize that they are doing so. It is a matter of unconscious habit, just like the phrase 'ya know' being slotted between every other word in a sentence~~it is simply a bad habit, but not an intended slight.

Additionally, in highschool, I was taught that the term 'he' or 'men' referred to men and women alike in writing when no specific gender was provided in the text. Business and legal publications use 'he' or 'his' all the time to represent women as well as men. It certainly is nothing to get your 'panties in a wad' over!

If women are being kept down in society or relinquished to a lesser position in life by men's attitudes, altering our language isn't the place to start to correct the problem~~which, by the way, isn't enforceable in practice anyway. The change must come early on with the respect that male children develop for their mothers' and sisters' accomplishments and the mixing of gender roles so that males and females are both seen as competent no matter the task.

Anyway, I am perfectly happy be considered part of mankind! And never, ever get offended crossing a manhole cover! Women continue to make great strides in the area of being considered equals, but it's not coming true due to politically-correct legislation in my opinion.

Ha ha DOUGLAS NO4 FROM BATHGATE. Well said, that made my day. lol lol

What a load of bollocks!! Political correctness is a cancer in our society. The council should spend it's time earning the council tax they con from hard working people, not engaging in that sort of crap. Get a life the lot of you and people, vote them out at the next council elections - idiots that they are.

No 29 Ian - I can't see for my tears of laughter!

#277. Andrew.

Burns's poem is very beautiful. His loved one must have been completely bowled over, having such wonderful words written for her. (Good tactics, Rabbie!)

But that's the difference. The poem is written from the standpoint of a man writing for his true-love - i.e. for someone who would welcome terms of endearment.

I don't think the GCC intend to have this poem banned! That's NOT what their leaflet is recommending.

In France, there is a form of address called "vouvoyer" for formal relationships and one called "tutoyer" for informal or close relationships. It allows time for people to get to know each other, in due course, if appropriate. We could do with that here!

Anyway, I must go. My husband is now watching "Prime Suspect". How can I compete with Helen Mirren?

Ailsa,
Thought you went to bed at your husband's request 1 hour 27 mins ago.
Now he's watching HELEN!

I am huMAN, I am Scottish, and as a nation we are ScotsMEN...oh no! Now what?? What a load of twaddle! I am a woMAN...a hen if you like, or pet or love or...

None of these terms demean me, if anything, they make me feel nice.

Scotland is known for its friendliness, its fellowship, its warm heartedness...so, where does that leave us when we can't use terms that reflect that??

As many have pointed out, terms of endearment are not exclusively female related. As one person said, he was called petal and flower by a WOMAN...no offence meant or taken. Others are called love, dear, dearie, etc...I have never met a man who has taken these as offensive and demeaning. They take them in the light they are meant - kindness. So, why then should I be offended when male friends call me pet, hen or love. Or when the person behind the till...male or female...hands me my change and says "Here you go pet/love"? Or if the waiter or waitress says "What can I get you pet?"

Shock, Horror! They are being nice, friendly and sweet to me! Phone the police and my solicitor! I am going to sue...another thing we can adopt from America.

As for not referring to our gender; so, if men can't say "the girls in the office" then when are they going to tell the women they can't refer to the men as boys, "the boys in the back", etc. Are they next going say we can't call OURSELVES girls and boys?? We all know this is just as common in many places as pet or hen. You hear it everywhere here in Oban. "I'm so and so's boy." "I'm the boy with the blue mini." When are they going to come out with a directive for the women on the council?

They say no one can use the term lady/ladies unless gentleman/men can also be used; ok, so does that men LADY Provost Liz Cameron will have to give up her title? Will anyone who has been knighted have to give up their 'Sir' so that no one has a gender based title??

Did they p

You cannot use the word "person" because it contains the masculine word "son" and for extreme political correctness you cannot use "the", "there", "here" . etc. because all of them include the masculine word "he" or the femine word "her"/

I wonder what the Glasgow Council members would do if they had to speak, French, German, Spanish or any other language in which all bouns have a gender?

#289 Ailsa Craig (the ROCK), Nr Arran - (and wee Jack)

Robt Burns - term of endearment - as in "Auld Lang Syne" (my dear), sung the world over, on every N Yr's Eve, and other celebratory events. This was written for all huMANkind.

Considering these are only "guidelines" and not legislation, the vast bulk of replies on this thread are complete nonsense.

It's another one of these media constructed, bonkers Britain stories that takes an issue that should command no interest outside the organisation involved, and turns it into some ridiculous crusade.

I pray for the day that the bonkers Britain, Colonel Blimp brigade finally get the ability to form their own opinions from the facts and don't just absorb the mis-information fed to them by biased media sources. I wont hold my breath though.

Ach, tomorrows another day...........!
Night Night Luv!
x

Dick #144, it's Willie #69 here - thanks for the comment, man! I used to work with a guy named Willie Dick! Funny enough, I also worked with a dick named Guy!

Anyway, it's past midnight, so off to bed...
n'nite, Helen. Please don't be too hard on your clients at the centre of excellence in the mornin' xx

Granted it is put out as a guide...just as it began in the states...and look where that got them.

They have gone PC mad there...I, too, pray Scotland has more sense than that.

Not 'guiding' people into being less friendly is a good start.

Joanna #227 and Jennifer #223

"A decent, tolerant society has to have laws against discrimination"

"You can't "outlaw sexism" .... Prejudice is an attitude of heart and changing laws won't change that."

I think you were both correct to a point. There needs to be some manner of laws/rules to regulate the clods whose attittudes will never change, and who have no common decency, but who still need to be kept in check. However, laws/rules don't change hearts/attitudes, but open communication, common decency and respect, usually do.

Sorry, Helen #19, but I very much disagree with your attitude and approach to solving the problem you seem to have.

To all you gentlemen out there who would give a smile as you call me hon, sweetie, hen...thanks for the compliment! :)
and, thank you for holding the door open for me as well!! :)

#300 Lady Labobo

Yes my dear that is what we are paying for all over Scotland. What is the point of Local Councils ... they are only breeding grounds for those overpaid non-entities earning £55,000 plus a year at Follyrood. And now the Councillors have decided they want to put their snouts in the political gravy train trough .... the a**holes think they should be getting £20,000 a year.

So, the eeeegits in Glasgow want to reinvent the way we all talk about them ..... they'll be banning the phrase 'f***ing useless c***s next. What will Glaswegians call them then?

Then there's their equally loonly counterparts across here in Edinburgh .... they plan to spend a few grand making Edinburgh a nuclear free zone .... I hope they have told the Iranians and the North Koreans about this master stroke of military strategy.

I bet Suddam had wished he'd thought of that one, then he could have declared Bagdad a 'conventional bomb free zone'.

I think at the next Local Council elections in Scotland there should be a rule that says if less than 25% of voters actually vote, the whole bloody lot of them should be scrapped.

So am I a wo-person?

And do we all belong to the hu-person race?

So, the politically correct world has finally descended upon Scotland?

This should be a sad day in history – or should that now be spelled 'herstory?'

Woman – as with men – have always had the option to tell someone that they do not like being addressed in a certain way.

And if that person persists? Ignore them!

No man-made law has ever stopped anything from happening. Yet another set of useless laws isn't going to make anything different.

In the main, the women driving the change are just as likely to be Misandrists: Man-haters.
I say that because the new regulations are aimed specifically at men.

And, take note that if a man complains about a woman speaking to him in way he should not speak to her, he will likely face derision in a way no woman would ever – under the new rules.

Therefore, this whole idea of political correctness is not much more than yet another aspect of the Orwellian, calculated to turn men into pseudo-women.
Imagine: All of Scotland's men becoming effeminate to please the misandrists.

The very great objective – if there is to be one here – is to entice others towards both self-respect and the consonant respect for others.

You don't need a law, or rules, or regulations for that, just simple understanding.

I read your headlines with the hope of finding some common sense. Sorry, but this article seems to have lost it. Personal experience shows people are somewhat reluctant to communicate simply because they may not be what we refer to as "politically correct". If being referred to as love, dear, pet, etc. is personally offensive, the individual certainly can express their wishes not to be addressed in that friendly way. Why waste everyone else's time with perceived offensive salutations that to someone else, may not be offensive at all. Let each person speak for their self. That is why they have a voice, it's their own and their own preference. Or did freedom of speech get lost in Scotland too leaving one with only the politician's opinion.

Well, what a load of codswallop!
Stone the crows, and starve the lizards!
I never actually thought a Council would go ahead with this sort of claptrap.
Does that mean that all Toilets will now be Unisex?
Does that mean that Cross Dressers can now perform their Professions, ie Lawyers,Doctors etc, without Prejudice from their clients/patients?
Why doesn't this Council leave well alone and get on with important issues that they were voted in for?

Furthermore, how are you going to cope with the Commonwealth Games in 2012?
What are you going to call the men and women?
Imagine- Flat Chested entrants and Lumpy Chested entrants!
Don't personstion (mention) that the Personager (Manager) is putting something on the Persontlepiece (Mantlepiece).
What a joke!!!!!

What complete and utter tosh. As a female (am I allowed to say that) it is very rarely that I am offended by be called pet or love. Sometimes it makes you feel quite nice to be called by a term of endearment.
Wonder how much was actually spent putting this document together. What a waste of tax-payers money! There are far more needy causes out there that could have benefitted from the dosh!

get the Taliban over here to sort things out

Hu-person
Fe-person
Personkind
Hu-personanity
Mid-person (Midwive no longer acceptable)
Persondable
Personifest
Persondrake duck

What sh*te. Needs to be vigorously resisted. There is now a new word in the dictionary - MASCULINIST.

Well, ahv sin the error of ma ways and tellt all ma pals to quit callin me mate. An any fowk that pop into ma stores will noo have to address me as Equipment Distribution Operative.
So there!

'midwife'

I believe nowadays they're called birth facilitators!

Ma cuzins band has it sorted. Track 3 is just right.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.view...

This has to be the biggest bunch of dribble I have ever read.

Perhaps they should be turning their attention to women who are really truly suppressed and treated like trash, no treated like they are nothing. They are the women we should be helping, we should all be helping them!

These are women who are trained as Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers etc, who because they are women and only because of that they are not allowed to work.

They are not allowed to drive a car! But, male children are allowed. Why? Because they believe that all males are superior to all females.

This is why these men can beat these women up, maime them, and kill them and mostly go unpunished, because why? Thats the law and afterall it was ONLY a woman.

Why does the GCC attack our language and terms... Because its an easy target!

Wake up people and defend the people who truly need to be defended, protected and supported.

313! - A good argument is a good argument regardless of gender. The best arguments have now been put forward, however it seems that hardly anyone is reading all of the contributions as a result the main issues are getting lost in slow grade often fatuous, sometimes peurile comments that add little to this forum. It would be better to refer back to these good arguments and keep the ball rolling in good healthy debate before we are ousted from cyberspace!

with a view on life such as yours, you have got to live on your own - mmmm? i wonder why

comment 322 is directed at 313, just in case it was difficult for anyone to work out!

Those Council females ..(yes they are mainly females)
that are pushing for those changes belong no doubt to the 'ugly sister brigade' and are as a result not being addressed with any terms of 'endearment' by anybody.
Thus the proposition to do away with all those terms of endearment as mentioned in this debate, is nothing more that an act of spite on their part, following the concept that 'if we can't have it, then nobody will'
they will of course not succeed, it's all too ridiculous
but that should not stop us being 'witty and sarcy' about it because that is what this proposition deserves.

The Scotsman newspaper has definetly got to go.

In my line of work I don't care what they call me. In fact sometimes I get paid more if they call me names.
Thank goodness for men, they are so weak.

Funny how women who have 'careers' fuss about what names they are called by men. All the while bitching in a vile manner about other women. Women who have to work, bus drivers, posties, check out girls, just get on with their lives. Get the office workers out there 'working' instead of feeding their hang ups to one another! Chattering hens all of them!

Cindy

The only industry I can think of where a person gets paid more to be called names is the sex industry. That (the sex industry) being the easiest vocation in the world, you call men weak? Dearie me, dearie.

Well, I really thought we in South Africa had gone completely overboard in political correctness, hate speak, and all the other nonsense that has been thrust at us since 1994, in the name of Human Rights and non-discrimination, but this really does take the cake as the old saying goes (wonder if that's now considered PC??).

I can think of a good few other four letter words that seem to have become acceptable of late, in general conversation, that are a lot worse than these regional terms of endearment.

Quite honestly I don't want to become a non-entity - I'm a female and proud to announce the fact....so add any of the identifying prefixes/suffixes/title to anything referring to me - I certainly won't be offended !!! In my book, it certainly doesn't indicate I'm inferior to any male counterpart whatever position I may hold within a company or elsewhere.

Thanks for the best laugh I've had in months.

dave, it takes a strong personality to be compliant and intimate with strangers. I think I have many special skills which make me good at my job and some of the silly posts here do not reflect the reality of men/women relationships which are for the most part tales of domination by one of the parties. whats wrong with calling a woman "dear" or "hen" or whatever

Nowt cindy.

I think the whole thing is very silly and frankyl unsettling and causing further divisions between the sexes. At this point, we need to get on more than ever. I presonally get called Gaelic terms of endearment by colleagues male and female and i like it, it makes me feel accepted.

Being called 'Mate' by someone serving me in a shop is unacceptable. I refer to many people as 'Sir' or 'Mr' at my place of work and they nearly always respond in a like manner. If the person in B & Q or Wickes or Clarks shoeshop was in fact my friend then 'mate' is fine. Some of the women I work with (there are very few) call me 'darlin' I care not. I call them by their first name or if I know them well enough, by a term of endearment. I care very little for all this pc nonsense, if someone asked me not to call them a particular name then I would desist. Equally, I respect the common terms of address around the country. 'Flower' 'pet' 'chuck' 'duck' 'darlin' 'sweetheart' etc etc, Vive la difference!

Douglas #154. Thanks for clearing that up! Didn't mean to sound irrate.

In reference to comment #23. I assume you are male. You ask what is offensive about being called a "hen." I would ask, would you like to be referred to as a "cock?"

#267. Lorne. Many thanks! I appreciate your kind remarks (which I have just come across).

You are a ray of sunshine in what has tended to be a very disappointing - and often disagreeable - forum.

There have been other fair-minded contributors also, who have expressed themselves well and made worthwhile points. But they have often been drowned out by seemingly undemocratic people who did not want others to have their say.

That is not what one expects of The Scotsman's web-site!

Yes, my name-sake Ailsa Craig is still a very beautiful rocky island, just south of Arran.

I shall look out for your postings in future occasions!

Best regards. AC

This fascinating subject must surely be coming to an end?
I wonder why no one from Wales has explained their native term of endearment.."Bach" I was frequently addressed thus when I stayed there in the 70's. "Bach' made me, an 'outsider,' feel accepted.. never really knew what it meant, but just felt that it was all good!

When my family and I were on holiday last year, thorughout England, Scotland and Wales, our party of 2 women and 1 young man were frequently addressed as "dear", "love", "darlin' ", and "mate". We found it an endearing trait - very friendly and welcoming - and sincerely hope the practice will continue, as we plan to visit again (soon and often). Could someone please notify your Lady Provost not meddle with a good thinng?

A lot of hypocracy going on here...
Bettcha the turnout at the last cooncil elections barely made it to double figures! You get what you deserve if you don't pay attention to who you are electing. Start a common sense party and see the votes pile in.

A little late perhaps but I applaud Bill in #88, I too have worked all over the world and used such language now to be considered inappropriate in Glasgow. Not all the time, not on all occasions but tempered with common sense and respect... seems easy enough really.... Glasgow's high and mighty just join a long list of people with too much time on their hands.

Oh dear - I cannot call anybody "hen". Does it mean that one can no longer say "Hey Jimmy". What a state some people get into.

I'm a feminist who uses "luv" all the time because I can't remember people's names. I've yet to have anyone: male or female, bothered or unhappy about it. And as far as the use of lady goes, my mother taught me that a female deserves to be considered a lady until she proves herself otherwise. THese people need a real job rather than these make-work projects that just bring feminism and the real problems women face in the workplace, such as far lower salaries, into disrepute.

I'm on the same wave length as #17 and for the same reason as # 342....
when appropriate I use darling... never had anyone man or woman be offended....

Poor overly sensitive Helen. You always seem to produce your credentials in order to satisfy your own desire that you are more than anyone else, therefore you must be right.
If you have a problem with the word Man and brethern in the Word of God, ya might wanna take it up with the Lord as He, not she, created man, male and female.
Are going to offer us more credentials about yourself and tell the Lord HE is being politically incorrect and insensitive?

Well done glasgow city counsil.I wonder if it is down to counsil leader STEPHEN PURCELL and his forsight, to let this nonsence enter the nany pc rule books. G.C.C.have just made glasgow THE UNFRIENDLY CITY. CONGRATUATIONS. I think not.

Ridiculous. Everybody in Glasgow is called Jimmy, even the women.

I wouldnt openly object to being called "hen" or other such "term of endearment" but I am with most of the other women in so much as I do not like it, darlings.

I blame plastic surgery and lipposuction - the current trend of cosmetic surgery has some debilitating side effects that are just beginning to personifest themselves on us all. I know of a bloke (can I say that ?) who went in for a nip and tuck and came out having had all his common sense glands inadvertently removed. Another female colleague found that extensive lipposuction had vacuumed all sense of reality from the poor woman. On the plus side (for her) she was later promoted to a level that reflected her new found incompetence. Beware these minor surgical procedures !

It occurs to me that maybe men should start addressing each other using the terms they normally reserve for woman.

Of course, that may raise some eyebrows ...

If everyone is being addressed the same way, then there cannot be any =real= reason to complain. Right?

The first rule for defusing a bad situation, is to inject as much humor into it as possible.
Remember: You can't be angry if you're laughing!

I can see it now, opening soon on Broadway, a revival of Arthur Miller's play, "Death of a Salesperson."

http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/YourCouncil/Council_Committe...

In Glasgow the first citizen is known as The Rt. Hon The Lord Provost of Glasgow.
A female Lord Provost is the Lord Provost and is not called The Lady Provost. The spouse of the Lord Provost, if the spouse is female, is called The Lady Provost. There is no title if the spouse is male.

"But Glasgow City Council, whose senior figures include Lady Provost Liz Cameron ..."

Please choose one of the following:

a) if Ms Cameron is on the council, her title is Lord Provost, not Lady Provost; please make corrections to this and future articles

b) if her title is Lady Provost, she is the female spouse of the Lord Provost; please ask her to 'stick a sock in it'

I am sad to learn that our 'Mother' Country passes silly laws just like we do i8n the US. What has happened to plain old common sense??????? Sad, Sad.
Being a country boy raised on a farm, I have a word for this kind of foolishness but--------it would not pass the speech police.

Perhaps we should refer to everyone as "IT".. would that satisfy the imbicles of the world??

If you have not figured it out, it is called incrementalism.....ref: people that respond with, hey its just a pamphlet, or its such a non-story, or its so trivial. That is the whole idea of doing things a little bit at a time. the order is socialism then becomes fascism and then stalinism.
Not to get off topic but even terrorists know this and were getting away with killing hundreds of people alittle bit at a time, until they got greedy. (extreme example I know )
Here where I am, they are now trying to tell food service folks what kind of grease they can use. They plan on most people, just being"sheeples"
and going along with it.
In short it is a "bottomless pit" as many observant folks have pointed out, where do you stop, IE different religions, cultures, Idioms.
no matter what people will say or discuss it will always comeback to a few things. They have already been posted in some form or fashion.

IF YOU ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE OFFENDED ,THAT IS YOUR FAULT, NO ONE ELSES
it's called your ego, or for helen's sake i should use scripture, "only with pride comes contention". If the basis for this was TRULY for the warm fuzzy "equality" the council/feminists would change nothing. Wanting to draw attention to your gender, and then stand back and scream unawareness and equality is "mucho guffaws" , I won't bore you with the gnat on the bull's nose story.
but it is quite similiar.

The actual crux of the matter will always be the simple fact:
YOU CANNOT MANDATE MORALS.
As others have said, there is a way around every law, known to man.
In the Military (I'm retired) I worked with some normal testosterone type males and we actually created a proffesional chart for

Good Grief! What hogwash, total rubbish! Last I knew, I was female, a WOman, and proud of it! I LIKE being a separate distinction from men, thank you! I use terms such as "dear" and "love" as much for men as women. Who has the time in this busy life to be "disturbed" by such silliness? Good Lord, man (oops, and WOman), find a hobby!

I propose that we tell the Glasgow city council to ban the use of 'Jimmy'. I was born and bred in the city and hate to be addressed as such. Terms such as 'ok Jimmy' 'awright jim' etc I find horrible.....

What a shame that we are to lose 'hulawrerrhen, hozitgoan'

Well - This Blog has got to be one of the funniest doing the rounds at the moment - certainly not boring! Had tears rolling down my face from some of the comments - congrats to all ma's and fe's with a sense of humour.

I've read every single post and have come to the conclusion that those objecting to nicknames must be having a Gender Identity Crisis and are very insecure little Vegemites. ( Now there's another one for you - bet you don't know what that one means! Unless you're an Aussie, that is.)

And in case anyone's wondering, I was a nurse for nearly 40 years - have been called just about every nickname you can think of, by many different races ( some I didn't understand, and that might be just as well :) - and can't remember objecting to any of them...even the naughty ones - it was all in a day's work.

#29 IAN....Hope you don't mind, but I've sent your comment all around Oz and the world - a clasic!!!
Oh...and Bastard can be a term of endearment in Oz, depends on what context and tone of voice it's used in.

#357 JIM - You're not going to loose anything mate -
most people aren't sheepels and the intelligent ones know that PC has got out of hand, and will now go right out of their way to make sure the lighthearted friendliness of substitution lives on.

And if you want to learn some new ones - just to totally confound and confuse the Political Correct over there - type in Google Search 'Australian slang words and their meanings' or try this link.
http://www.australianexplorer.com/slang/people.htm

We might be a thick skinned, un-couth lot over here, and heading slowly down the American path because of some idiots warped way of thinking ( probably an import from some other country anyway ), but most of us are not going willingly or without a fight.

To Helen and Ailsa - Me thinks you must be a couple of FIGJAM'S. ( No

I have a friend called Blackie. It's legitimate because its on his birth certificate. He's happy with it and has never been a problem for him. What I want to know is will I get into trouble for writing his name on an envelope before posting? More! I am told, but don't believe it, that schoolteachers are not allowed to refer to the blackboard as a blackboard or for that matter a whiteboard as a whiteboard. People, please reassure me that we have not sunk to this level of insanity!

Alex#359: You're bang on about the classroom stuff. They use something called smart boards now and it's only a matter of time before the scruffier little urchins object to that.

I'm coming into this a bit late but in answer to Douglas #4, San Francisco dealt with this a while ago and declared that manhole would now be personhole as Philip #20 wrote. I personally find this whole topic quite offensiv. If I don't like being called "love", "hen" or any number of other things, I can open my mouth and say so. Good grief, being raised with 5 brothers taught me to stand up for myself and I'm tired of women standing behind someone else instead of standing up for themselves. I can say this being female myself. Don't coddle me for crying out loud!

I'm coming into this a bit late but in answer to Douglas #4, San Francisco dealt with this a while ago and declared that manhole would now be personhole as Philip #20 wrote. I personally find this whole topic quite offensiv. If I don't like being called "love", "hen" or any number of other things, I can open my mouth and say so. Good grief, being raised with 5 brothers taught me to stand up for myself and I'm tired of women standing behind someone else instead of standing up for themselves. I can say this being female myself. Don't coddle me for crying out loud!

Aye, Julie, how right you are,
the converse usually goes like this,

If a female does something for a male, in any office, hospital, pick a place, and the male replies with, "thank you darlin'" the female simply says "I'm not your darlin", and then the poor fellow falls all over himself trying to recoup his "losses" and never speaks in that fashion ever again.

The norms are "sweetie" "dear" "babe"
"darlin" some of the older gents still use "sweetheart"

For the sake of entertainment let me also add that a large number of men call their wife by those same names, the reason is for longevity, they have figured out they will live a lot longer if they never call out the wrong name while "engaged" in physical co-mingling.

#No 358 Carol You are a bonza sheila & your blood is worth bottling.

PC is dying the death here Im glad to say. We tend to be too pragmatic for that nonsense. I knew I was home when a shop assistant asked "you right luv?" I didnt feel insulted.

By the way can you you use the word "person"? Son is definitely male.

#230. When ah was wee and lived in Glesga, they were called Wumman Polismen !

#365 - Thankyou George for the nice compliment. ;)

OBITUARY

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend by the name of Common Sense who has been with us for many years.

No one knows for certain how old he was, since his birth records were some how lost in bureaucratic red tape.

He will be remembered by some, as having cultivated such valued lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm and that life is not always fair.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (do not spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, NOT kids, are in charge).

His health began to rapidly deteriorate when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place; when Governments started dictating to us how we should live, eat and raise our children; when they took OUR responsibility away from US.

Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a girl classmate, teenagers suspended from school for not wearing the 'correct' shoes, and a teacher sacked for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

It declined even further when schools were required to obtain parental consent to administer aspirin to a student, but could not inform the parents when a female teenage student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Common Sense started to lose the will to live as the Ten Commandments and the Bible became politically incorrect; churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.

Common Sense finally gave up the ghost, after a man who was drunk, went swimming and diving off the rocks at a popular beach at 3am - hit his head on submerged rocks, and broke his neck which left him a paraplegic - then sued the local Council for not having signs warning of the danger - and was awarded a hugh settlement for THEIR negligence.

Common Sense was preceded in

Wait until we are all given and will only be known by a number......Hmmmm....being odd might cause a problem. The (new) labour party are, at the bottom of all the spin and misirection, still failed communists wishing to squeeze out ever last bit of individuality, freedom and will power from everyone, while they swan around wasting public funds and MIS-leading the country on the basis of their delusional, early college days', radical ideology and politics that has long since been rejected and dispensed with almost everwhere else. While I am here Thanks 354. fred, USA, another American whose on the ball I wish there were a few more like you and 255 Anne. in Great Britain we might see our way out of this nightmare.

Magic! I've been reading for the past hour... but really you folks on the PC side - get a life. 20 years ago - on walking into my first Labour Party meeting - I was confronted by a wall of stunned silence when I was the only voice of dissent against an overwhelming majority of yeahs to vote for the formation of a woman's group (oops!) Being the only female present - I felt in no way threatened to vioce my opinion that creating sub-groups creates additional divides which in turn DIS-empowers those we try to defend. I was naive - 16 - but I also knew that I could speak up for myself - and didn't want any 'special' group to do it for me. In my mind - if I needed a special group - then that in itself was an admission I needed help - screw that - I can speak up for myself thank you very much. That includes replying to amyone that pisses me off... To the many posters who wrote about empowerment coming from within - I couldn't agree more. No amount of legislation will satisfy those who claim special group status. Where do we stop? Let's not forget - in losing terms of address - we lose portions ouf our culture, regardless of the etymology. As many have pointed out - it is the intent - the significance if you will. We are renowned in Scotland as being friendly - hence our traditional use of a variety of terms of address - most of which veer towards the informal. Likewise - if one were to travel to Egypt for example - one would be called "tante" "ochti' or "ya mamma" (auntie, sister mama) depending on your age - yes - I open another can of worms...
Get real - if you have a probelm with what someone says to you - deal with it like people have always dealt with it - have the guts to reply - or shut up! DON'T make everyone pay for your lack of courage by enforcing guidelines which may lead to legislation.

# 1- Your very welcome 368

Jim, put up with it or move baw bag!

This sort of thing is pretty silly. I grant that 'humankind' is an improvement upon 'mankind', and that some usages are deliberately offensive. I myself, in signing up, found it offensive to describe my 'gender' as 'male'. I am of the male sex, and my name's gender is masculine, and in languages other than English, gender is independent of sex.

Why have no lefthanded people risen up in fury at the obnoxious connotations of 'gauche', 'sinister', and 'righteous'?

'Political correctness' is sometimes just plain correctness, sometimes idiotic euphemism, and often merely politeness. For a while the people in this country who were content to be called 'black' were insulted by the Latin or Spanish equivalents of that word. But for most of them, African-American was far more accurate. I am myself a paleface, and know nothing of the Caucasus.

This one is for Gordon, who correctly notes that the Hebrew and the Christian Scriptures are sexist.
But in fairness, he should remember the severe penalties imposed in Ahab and Jezebel's time against those equipped for pi$$ing against a wall.

Dear Helen,
I beg you to reconsider the word 'chairperson'. I recommend instead 'moderator'.

At the Commission where I worked, a woman took over the Chairman's role. She had the title of that office changed to 'Chair'. So for the term of her occupancy, this woman was a chair. That was bad enough, but as soon as a man got the job, the Commission had a Chairman again.

What a waste of effort!