I can't really see that stopping people drinking outside pubs will stop the noise problem - they'll still go outside to smoke, shout and scream even if they can't drink.

And if they can drink outside before 11pm, why bother banning them after that time if they can still go outside for a smoke?

A spokeswoman for Lothian and Borders Police said: "We would welcome additional powers to help address anti-social behaviour and would actively take enforcement action where required in response to any complaints made by the public."

Wouldn't it be better if police took enforcement action without having to wait for a public complaint? The problem is that because of this ethos the public don't complain because they think the police aren't interested - thus a viscous circle.

I really dont miss drinking in the town

Soon 'being happy' will be banned just to keep the soor faces soor.

surley standing on and blocking the payement in front of any building is an offence on which the police can act

After this they will than add a noise ban after 10PM like they have here in the USA, no public drinking outside, no noise after 10 PM, no smoking in public places......if you want to have a party, you have to get a noise permit and than you still get about 6 visits from the police during the party.....

Everyone is up in arms at the council and police plans but in reality the problem is caused by a small number of people who become loud and obnoxious because they drink too much. If you're upset by the new law, have a go at the people causing the problem not the ones trying to fix it.

Surprise surprise. Smokers now drink outside (joined by their mates i would imagine) and noise levels are up. If the research had been done by the legislators before this ill thought out piece of PC nonsense was enacted you would have found exactly the same problem in New Zealand the year before.

If it were not so sad it would be funny.

Perhaps the politicians should start allocating funding to build new prisons right now, and the police should have a massive recruitment drive. They have, after all, created a new generation of criminals. Having a night out in town now if you are a smoker or drinker could easily lead you down the slippery slope to time in the slammer. if you smoke indoors, you break the law. if you drink outdoors, you break the law. You just can't win, can you?

Oh yes, and we're not talking about illegal substances here. We're talking about two perfectly legal substances (albeit it's debatable whether they SHOULD be, but that's a different story).

If the government are going to make criminals out of ordinary law abiding citizens who are using two of the biggest revenue earners in the economy, they'd better set the criminal justice system up to deal with it. Oh well... at least I can have a fag in prison without anyone stopping me.

I'm afraid taking the attitude of highschool playground rules is not going to solve the problem

But Kate, there is NOTHING stopping people from drinking or smoking outside. What the new regulations propose to stop is people being so noisy outside after 11pm that they breach the peace. No one should have the "right" to do that anyway, should they?

Smokers are developing a persecution complex, because it suits them. I repeat, NOBODY is being prevented from drinking or smoking outside - they are being prevented from being antisocial, and that's surely a good thing?

What extra powers do the police require ? if some one is causing a breach of the peace , arrest them.
Are the Police in Scotland going down the tube with the rest of the country. ?

This is great news - too long have the majority suffered from the selfish acts of the few.

Duncan #10, I have to disagree. I believe what is being said here is that there will be a ban on drinks being taken outside after 11pm, although alcohol will continue to be sold till all hours. I am a non smoker, and personally enjoy the smoke free atmosphere of pubs now, but I think smokers have every right to feel persecuted in the current climate.

If the issue is about anti-social behaviour, then the behaviour should be tackled, regardless of whether or not someone has a drink in their hand.

Prior to the smoking ban, the issue was raised of crowds piling onto the street and violence and anti social behaviour resulting. There was also concern about smokers having to leave drinks unattended while they went outside to smoke. There were various concerns for safety, which those who were in favour of optional designated smoking areas asked to be addressed. Everybody knew there would be problems.

If the licensing laws hadn't been pushed to the point where 24 hour drinking was possible, we wouldn't have half the problems we do with alcohol in this country. Many of the women who are victims of domestic violence (the kind people DON'T see) have had more to face since alcohol became far less restricted. It's not about WHERE it is being done.

Unfortunately greed shines through, and as long as it pulls in the big money for government revenue, the politicians will continue to promote an irresponsible attitude towards drinking by allowing it to be served and sold round the clock, and then tell the public, in their usual nanny state manner, that they must behave.

Of course the public should be protected from drunken anti social behaviour, but this should be tackled by sensible licensing laws, not by adopting a "get as much as you can, whenever you like" attitude. Stricter controls on sale is what required. This government is doing the opposite by encouraging round the clock drinking!

Disgraceful! Time to change the Coonsellors; let's have more drinking Al Fresco, eh Al?, not less and no smoking outside bars as well - in fact no smoking anywhere!
If there's a babble in the street it shows that there's life going on; just because folk cannae hear their telly shouldn't destroy the ambience and animation in the toon. Anyone been in Seville lately, by the way? There's a toon where they ALL are on the streets ALL the time and everyone complains if they're NOT there!

Ann, fair point, but I'm at a loss to understand why people are pointing the blame anywhere but at the people who are causing the problem - those who drink too much, become loud and obnoxious, and cause trouble.

You don't see this happening in France, where people drink in moderation to have a good time, but not to excess.

I hope the current adverts pointing out the hypocrisy of people pushing drink on others hit home. But we really need to have a cultural shift away from alcohol dependence, and that is a hell of a thing to achieve.

First of all, the government who "encourages" round the clock drinking is the Westminster-based government of England and Wales. The Scottish Parliament has hardly promoted round the clock drinking. As a career barman, I know their emphasis is on trying to get Scotland to drink less, more responsibly.
And second, smokers get over yourselves. When I smoked I whined about all my supposed "rights", forgetting that I was denying others the right to breathe clean air. This ban is here to stay and only a self-important idiot would think it's a bad thing. You don't like not being able to drink and smoke outside after 11?
Then quit and drink inside.

#17, you are wrong. England and Wales do not dictate Scottish licensing laws, and for many years the drinking hours between the two were different.

There is also empirical evidence that if alcohol was subject to the existing legislation which applies to illegal substances, based on harm, it would be placed in the same class (Class A), as heroin and cocaine. It is an undeniable fact that it is a harmful drug of abuse. In moderation, the effects would obviously not be so damaging, just as they wouldn't be with many other, illegal, substances. People often confuse legality with harmlessness. They do not go hand in hand. Sometimes it is just that the law is indeed an ass.

Given that alcohol will never be made illegal, proper, responsible licensing laws should be put in place to protect society from its health and social harms (alcohol misuse accounts for more accidents, household fires, violence, disease and crime than all of the illegal drugs put together). Liensing laws have instead been relaxed beyond belief. This is irresponsible legislation, no matter how many fancy sensible drinking adverts they fire out.

The licensing laws should reflect the culture of any country. Unfortunately, unlike our cousins on the continent, whose drinking culture is to drink in moderation, the Scottish culture of "drink to get drunk" does not fit well into all round drinking licensing laws. Until the culture changes, the licensing laws should not try to reflect those of other countries who do not share the massive alcohol related problems that we have. Having said that, the health problems relating to alcohol in some European countries is far greater than it is in the UK. It's just that ours is more behaviour related than theirs.

#17. You have exactly the same attitude as the 'minority' you now persecute for being small minded over an issue that is important to them. More of you around and all our rights go. What next? Thin edge of the wedge Mr I have seen the light and i WILL make you follow (while insulting you).

So, the anonymous police spokeswoman thinks that it would be a good idea to have more powers and that the police would take enforcement action in response to complaints?
What happened to the days when police officers were on patrol, on foot, at night, in the busy areas in town, where the noisy pubs were and took preventative action in line with their statutory responsibilities? To guard, patrol and watch so as to prevent crime........ etc. etc.. Not to police the streets in the way that the Fire Service answers calls.
The police report to the Licensing Committee but it should be by observations, visits etc. etc. not by the tick-box number of calls attended about noise.
They seem to have given up at Fettes!

Greg (17) I choose to smoke and drink indoors with friends. We save lots of money that might have gone to pay your wages. You may succeed as a career barman but many will have to look for new jobs.
Still, not to worry, now we're saving so much we're planning another flight to Spain.

Wow another cringe making story from the home-land. What's gone wrong ? We look like right morons from the outside. Britain is the only country I have seen with such an alcohol problem. The German's consume more alcohol than the Brits ,but
with only a fraction of the consequences. Why can't we learn to control our intake. Is it seen as a macho thing to drink untill your drunk ?.

As a nurse in Accident & Emergency, covering weekend late night shifts, I know first hand that the sensible drinking message is not getting through in Scotland. If people could see the damage caused by irresponsible licensing laws, they wouldn't be so keen to applaud the Scottish Executive on their grossly ineffective and expensive sensible drinking adverts. They should instead be doing their duty in restricting the drinking hours. THAT'S how to protect society from anti social behaviour and drink related violence. Our politicians' priorities are all wrong.

most pubs in edinburgh already stop people taking drinks outside after 9pm, even those with beer gardens, but its when the people are huddled together having there smoke that it can get a bit noisy. but as a door man ive never found it that high a level to be classed as a nuisance/disturbance. i think its more to do with the fines they are going to introduce,£500 more money in the governments coffers. but it was there doing that caused the problem in the first place by banning smoking in pubs and clubs now they are trying to pass the blame for there muck ups on to the public, why dont they admit they were wrong with the ban, or didnt think it threw properly about after effects.

#19

The culture will not change until the law does.

There is very little evidence that more liberal licensing laws will lead to an increase in alcohol-related violence, or even a rise in alcohol consumption.

Ann, the problem is not caused by irresponsible licencing laws, but irresponsible drinkers! Why does only a fraction of our problem exist on the continent?

The answer is to ban these people from pubs. No challenges, no messing and have their pictures published as idiots who can't hold their drink. Then we'd have a reduction in drunken violence and we'd see results a lot sooner than any half baked anti smoking law!

There is no one single solution to combat anti social behaviour as a result of alcohol misuse. Only a combination of stricter licensing laws, better targetting of hard hitting education campaigns and mandatory alcohol education in schools, and tougher legal penalties will have any hope of improving the culture. NONE of these in isolation will be enough.

re Greg 17

No Greg, I and many friends family etc who enjoy a smoke and a drink have voted with their feet, to stay at home (saving money, buying a carry out from the supermarket) have a nice meal some wine, cigs and watch a DVD or actualy have a chat without being told what to do in a pub and pay extortionate prices for the priveledge of a beer or glass of wine.

Wait till a bad winter comes and revenue will fall for pub owners smokers will not be bothered going out to a pub to have the hastle of having a fag outside in the cold and snow.My Uncle is selling up his pub after 30 yrs,and moving to Spain due to the ban, and I honestly dont blame him.

It wont all be coming up roses for landlords due to this.

jim29, i agree with your uncle selling his pub mate, its already started major pub chains selling off, firstly spirit group, london& edinburgh inns,luminar leusure, to name a few. its been okay during the warmer months for smokers out at pubs clubs, but with winter some or most local pubs will not make enough to cover there electricity amnd council rates ect so will inevitably close.

There’s a plot hatching down in my local. A group of about 5 or 6 folk take a trip to a part of the town they are not known in. Two thirds of the way through their pint they all light up and refuse to leave until their pint is finished, then move on to another pub and do the same. Groups from other parts of town are invited to do the same. Starts this Saturday.

A quiet rebellion.

Jack, what an unpleasant plan. Not only will you get the landlords in trouble, you'll spoil the evening for every other person there who is prepared to toe the line. And this great "rebellion" is in what cause? Your own selfishness. Well bravo, my friend, bravo indeed.

good luck with it jack, hope it starts something.
dont listen to duncan, he is just worried your plan might gain support.

On the contrary, I'm worried it will start something, Martin - a totally unnecessary alcohol-fuelled confrontation between a group of stubborn, selfish people and the rest of the bar who are there for a good time.

Ann #24

While I agree with the tenor of your remarks, I think the licensing hours issue is a bit of a red herring. For example,I know that if opening is extended by a couple of hours then people may well just go out a couple of hours later. Thus merely the timing of the ASB and violence changes, not the extent. However, since I live beside a pub I'd prefer the shouting and bawling at 1am rather than 3am, say, so to that extent I agree with you.

As for the current advertising campaign, I think it's quite good, but as for being effective I doubt if it can do much good without tough licensing and policing. The Scottish licensed trade bleated that it was trying to discourge people drinking in traditional rounds, for example - how pathetic!

But it's interesting that the smoking and licensing issues have come together in articles like this and this demonstrates how the Executive should have sorted out the existing problems rather than bumbling on with new legislation which has to an extent exacerbated the liquor licensing/ASB problems.