why don't moslems see how this face covering thing is acting as if they're ashamed of themselves

As they said in the princess bride "Those who wear masks should not be trusted"

Be that as it may, they're ashamed of their women, and disempower their femininity by making them be covered up head to toe, in order to make them feel ashamed also.

Likely cause moslem men often have been treating their women so bad, that they're afraid they'll leave them.

It isn't me who says that, the documentarien Theo Van Gogh who was murdered for showing the horrors of that ideology and how they ritualistically murder any women who are the least bit independent...

Murder murder and more murder, The pope says that moslems have a habit in the past of resorting to violence, after fully admitting that the churches past isn't pure either. Trying to show how violence cannot be tolerated

So the moslems burn down some 2000 year old churches, and kill some helpless nuns.

A cycle repeats as its the only response they know how to do, treat women like slaves, treat those who disagree with them to a blade, and kill all dissent

I'm glad I escaped Islam, So I guess You'll want to kill me too inasmuch as I'm an apostate

I think Mr Straw is wrong because moslem women who wear the veil do so volutarily to prevent any man who is not their husband from seeing their face and recieving unwanted attention.

Jack Straw is absolutely right. There is no problem at all with Muslim women wearing a scarf (or indeed the veil under some circumstances) but I also would feel there was a barrier being erected between us if the woman had her face covered while we spoke. I like to see people's reactions and you can't gauge that with only a pair of eyes looking back at you.

The Muslims may feel it's a religious thing, but I would think it's at least very rude and if they truly want to integrate with British society, then they really do have to make some concessions.

every one is free to wear whatever you want and every one is free to choose what you whant and every one has to respect choise and religious believe of other , no one has a right to aske other what have to wear ,jack straw is absuluty wrong and not tolerant ,he disorve to put him in jail because he discriminated a women.
i prefer to choose a women well covert then women who wears sexy clothes and trying to drawn intention of man and they buy themselves like goods .

I am so fed up with arguing with the Muslim community. We opened our doors to these people and welcomed them and in return they are trying to change the views of this 'Christian Country' to suit them. If we go to their countries we are not treated with open arms, as they are here.They do not have in place any of the things we have set in place for them in our 'Christian Country'. They have set up ghetto's in our country and have no intention of intergrating with us here. It says in the Koran that they shall take over the world and change everyone to Islam, and so far they're doing just that because we have let them in to all countries without a fight.If they want to remain in this country then they should adhere to the countries laws, and if they feel we are encroaching on their religion then go preach somewhere else. We as a planet of different races will not be able to fully intergrate because we all have different goals. If they feel threatened in any way in this 'Christian Country' then they should beat a hasty retreat to where they do feel safe.

I find #1 Aaron's rant to be confusing, disjointed, rambling, and unclear. He is all over the place and injects his prejudices and pet foibles and peeves into his unreasoned "thoughts". What DOES he mean by saying he "escaped Islam" and that he is an "apostate"?

If he collect his "reasonings" in a coherent and understandable way, those of us who read these things would know what in hell he is talking about. He drags in everybody - including the pope and Theo van Gogh and then wanders all over the map with his nebulous natterings.

OH. Come on not again. He is medical practitioner not a police woman.
He has his patients. Would he ask a Scottish not to wear a kilt in his lab? Who ever thinks that because of you income going low you cry foul. No sir, There is enough of you in Iraq, let that stay there. Leave this issue untouched. I mean will you classify after some time this is a Pakistani, Bengali, India, Chinese, Japanese , English(Pure) English(Scotland) English(Wales) and do the chops.

I'm confused my tasty canuck cousin, How am I ranting, and disjointed

I merely refered to current events and The religion of peace's response was murder, blood thirsty murder in each case

I came to America Young enough to not buy into the crap that Was taught by me from childhood.

Moslems would call me an Infidel, cause I have to have the religion of my parents. If one leaves the islamic faith, he must die. It is a command, and I have had threats to my life in that respect.

My judgings, are post-judice, not pre-judice..

That is all

What a bl**dy carry on about nothing. He asks them to remove their masks, he doesnt rip them off does he? Mind you, he needs to watch what he says, most Muslims are a droll bunch and desperate to see insult and injury round every corner.
Having said that I think its a great idea if EVERYONE wore masks at all times in public. It would make all those CCTVs a bit useless

Never thought about the CCTV's which while being privatly used here in Oregon, they're still considered a violation of privacy.

I always consider scotland home, but I love the protections that I have here

Do these women appreciate how intimidating they are to other people when they walk in the street totally covered from head to foot? And in black, which itself is a frightening color? When I was in Scotland a few weeks ago my kids were so terrified by them I ended up having to cross the road - and it's nothing to do with racism, just a perception of what a human being looks like. Jack Straw is quite right - how can you have an open communication with someone whose very appearance says they are not open?

The command to wear the veil is just the whim of stupid jerks to harm women. One should avoid the silly statement that it is ethnocentric like wearing neck ties or what have you: it is a matter of respect for women .Like Dawkins, I disrespect those aspects of religions . Religion should not be an excuse for harm! We have to protect children from parents who refuse valid medical treatment . We do not follow the precepts of sharia or what not.

I work in an opticians and we have to ask women who wear veils to remove them if not we could not test their eyesight, so why id Jack Straw getting stick for asking the same question?

Can someone, anyone, please inform me of any benefits the British people have derived from the presence in this country of the so-called muslim "community"

I myself see only discord.

We have gangs of racist muslim thugs who have declared certain districts in British cities to be "no go areas" to the indigenous population and who threaten and perpetrate violent acts against any who dare set foot there.

We have muslim racist thugs who abducted, tortured and brutally murdered a white schoolboy in Glasgow for no other reason than that he "was white".

We have muslim racists such as the so-called "Tipton Taliban" who went to fight against British forces and our allies and who should have been tried for treason but instead are allowed by this corrupt and ineffective government to continue to abuse our hospitality.

Unfortunately, we also have in this country, a media, who for the most part, are strangely silent (witness the lack of coverage in the national news bulletins about the Kriss Donald case) when racist acts are committed against members of the indigenous population, but loudly proclaim any professed injustices against the ethnic minorities who are lucky to be in this country in the first place.

It is the indigenous population of this country and their forefathers who have worked and fought, and indeed died, to enable us all to enjoy the freedoms and privileges that are being abused for the most part by certain of our ethnic minorities. Is there a political party out there who dares to stand up for our rights?

We feed, clothe, house, and attempt to educate the vast percentage of those people and what do we get in return? They want to destroy us and our way of life. How dare they. We don't need, nor do we want such people in Britain.

If, as alleged by the "muslim community" we are a nation of racists, why do they not just pack up and head back to t

So Jack Straw has a communication problem?

I write, telephone, and talk to people without looking at them. I don't need to see their faces. Why intrude on people's privacy?

Islam isn't a "race." It's a creed.

Re the veil: It's not a religious "requirement" in Islam, even. Note the millions of Muslim women who don't wear them.

Rather, the insistence on making the women wear the shroud is a hallmark of the Islamic extremists, the most misogynist of the bunch (and that's saying something).

Craig #6 & #15 Finally someone who sees the truth for what it is.

I find the veils that the Muslim women wear disconcerting. I don't mean to be rude but they look a bit like the bogyman looking through a letterbox at you and that in itself is frightening for children. Even worse because it's black in colour.I would also like to know why Muslim men come to this country when they think that we 'White Woman' show too much body and by doing that lable us cheap? I fail to see why they have arrived in droves when they feel like that. Unless it's to try and suppress us mentally, like they have their own women for centuries. I shall always wonder when I walk along Princes Street why they look at us the way they do. It's starting to make my skin crawl.

It seems to me Islam demands everyone respect them and their customs/beliefs, but does not feel they need to respect anyone elses customs/beliefs.
It's all one way!

Put this in perspective!

A Danish newspaper publishes drawings of Mohamed. Islam reacts with random acts of violence and murder.

The Pope (though he insists it was not intentional) says Islam is a violent religion. Islam reacts with random acts of violence and murder.

Mr Straw says that it makes him feel uncomfortable to speak to someone who has their face covered.
Islam reacts with outrage and condemnaion.
I guess he should be glad their not fireboming his house.

When Bourguiba, a muslim, took power in Tunisia, a muslim country, in 1952, he banned the veil over the face. The reason? Because, he maintained, the banning of the veil would prevent women from being forced by their husbands to cover their faces. To my knowledge, there is nothing in Islam which requires a woman to cover her face.

7. TIMOTHY CHARLES, CANADA

8. Aaron, Portland, Oregon
Timothy, I think you are the one who is confused. Aaron could have written in better grammatical terms but nonetheless his message was clear. Perhaps if you knew a little of the Islamic faith you would understand that, having rejected Islam, he is an Apostate and as such his live is forfeit. Do not mistake this for some empty threat – it is real. If this gentleman was silly enough to visit an Islamic State, his life would be in danger. The Koran is clear on this – the Apostate is to be beheaded!!

If only for this reason alone there can be no integration with the Muslim community their religion does not permit it. This religion has not moved forward since it was introduced by Mohammed in mediaeval times, during his reign of terror.

The Pope and other leaders, including that idiot Prince Charles, should stop calling Islam a religion of Peace.

In the course of my work I have visited many Islamic States and on the few occasions I have been accompanied by my wife, she has been obliged to follow their rules. In Saudi she is not allowed to drive and ,as in all other Islamic States, she is required to wear long sleeved dress or blouse, no shorts or jeans and she is obliged to cover her head in public.
Jack Straw is correct in asking women to remove their veils. Muslims need to be reminded they came here of their own free will and they are free to leave if this country is not to their liking.

And a warning to all Muslims their increasingly aggressive pushing of their religion is beginning to seriously irritate many of the indigenous Brits and moving them towards voting BNP – something the vast majority would not normally consider. If the BNP do come to power Muslims will be removed!!

Aaron I wish you every good luck and I admire you courage to follow your conscience.

GOOD ON YOU CRAIG YOU SAID IT ALL

As a practicing Muslim (best of my abilities), I support JACK Straw's point. I am sad to say that Muslims have become so sensitive with all that has happened; that when ever a non Muslim makes a comment; they take it as an assault.

The idea of Muslim is to be modest; head covering was modest in year 700. Now when one wears head covering, it is an object of attention in the West, contrary to what it was meant for.

Head covering does not make a Muslim, it is our belief and good deeds that do.

Craig,
I thank you from the bottom of my heart, but you did not say enough,
Our God bless you.

Islam is a great faith. Don't blame it for the actions of some middle-eastern maniacs.

Christianity likewise. Don't blame it for middle-western maniacs and crusades. The Crusades were about murdering Jews who were owed money by bankrupt nobles, Jerusalem was an excuse.

People should be known according to their actions not their words. Thugs are still thugs whatever excuses they spout.

If Mr. Straw asked women to take down their veil of their own free will, then good for him. He is helping them to be free from servitude to the will for power of some imposters who take Islam as an excuse to impose power over them. Islam, like Christianity, is about submission to God, not submission to men.

Craig./ Alan,

SCOTLAND, ONLY FOR THE SCOTS.
sand eaters out!

Mr. Straw has said that this applies to Muslim women constituents who visit him, presumably with concerns or special requests for his intervention.

Let it be. He should simply do as anyone else would do and ignore them if they do not wish to do the minimum that he asks of any of his constitutents.

Enough of this hypersensitivity to insult, chip on the shoulder and completely one sided attitude that characterizes the discourse.

Let us have done with it.

Kriss Donald
'Boy snatched off street, set alight and murdered for being white'
Why can we not comment on this story? Another great boost for the BNP

What absolute madness. How dare any politician think he has the right to tell people what to wear.

Also sexist - would he think of ordering men to dress in a particular way before deigning to speak to them? I doubt it.

Well said Craig from Edinburgh. I for one am also sick of this so called peace loving, tolerant race called muslims and the day they all left would probably be as big as the celebrations at the end of WW2.

Again if being pro British makes me racist, I am proud.

John 11 says 'Do these women appreciate how intimidating they are to other people when they walk in the street totally covered from head to foot? And in black, which itself is a frightening color?'

Funnily enough I used to feel the same way about nuns when I was a kid. But I don't see that as an excuse to ban them! Get a grip.

Muslims? This government ludicrously bends over backwards to appease them because of fear of being called racist or, in the case of MP's like Straw, of losing the Muslim vote in his community. And MP's are now being intimidated by lies and hatred by Muslims into doing their bidding. Read 'Londonistan' by Melanie Phillips for a shocking (if flawed) overview of this disgusting, disgraceful phenomenon.

This is OUR country, and if Muslims don't like OUR laws and rules and religions they should just go back to where they came from. Permanently.

Islam, that wicked, evil, medieval "religion" of violence and its adherents has no place in 21st century Britain, nor indeed in any other civilised, democratic, western nation.

Thre are plenty of Islamic nations where they can practice their evil to their hearts content and I'm always amazed when they continually criticise the "host" nations yet refuse to settle or re-settle in said nations.

But, of course, only in Britain are they allowed to abuse our benefits system with impunity.

Only in Britain, are we forced to bend over backwards to continually appease incomers who have already declared their intention to turn Britain into an Islamic Republic (watch out Royals) and impose their barbaric Sharia laws upon us all.

Only in Britain are we continually forced to live under the control of weak, ineffectual government who are literally giving our country away to those who seek to destroy us.

It's time we took our country back, if not for ourselves then for future generations who shall be forced to live in "The Islamic Republic Of The Former Great Britain" if we don't do something, and quick- this is not scaremongering, this is the very real threat that faces us all.

"Migrationwatch", which is an independent organisation working in this country to monitor immigration levels, has declared that in 60 years or less, the indigenous population, thats people like you and me - shall be the minority in our own country.

I think they got it wrong. I think we'll be a minority much sooner, given the alarming birthrates within muslim families and the huge numbers of British citizens who feel they have to leave the country purely because they can no longer bear to see it's destruction.

This so-called government has wasted countless billions on immigrants and asylum seekers whilst our old age pensioners die in their thousands each year from hypothermia and malnutrition (20,000 in a 12 month p

UNMASK or leave the country. and take their families with them. because if a English man/woman went to a mosque as a visitor. they have to take their shoes off. actually when one sees a moslim woman covered from head to foot they remind one of a K.K.K MEMBER.

Miss H: Re: Nuns

I hate to break the news to you, but nuns do not walk around covered up looking like eggplants with eyeslits; they show their faces. You are the one who needs to get a grip (on reality).

And good for Mr. Straw. Cultural acclimation is a two-way street. Or will I be beheaded for insulting islam, like all those recent muslim protest signs that I viewed from Jolly Olde England? Funny how Great Britain doesn't have the death penalty, but their muslim, oh excuse me, their immigrant population does. Can I have an honor killing? Insh'allah.

Malcolm,

Get a clue.

First, just what about Islam is great? Please give me one 'great' thing about Islam that hasn't been plaigarised from Christianity.

Second, you need to do some research before you can give your opinion on the Crusades. Jerusalem was an excuse? Apparently you have never read the prime sources of information available at your nearest university on the matter. Try: defensive military action. And sure, there was the sack of Constantinople. This was not the reason for the Crusade(s). And is that all you have? The dastardly Crusades? How about the grand 'ole Inquisition? Ever read contemporary schools of thought on that? Like the part about it being totally overblown by protestant groups to fuel the campaign against Catholicism?

I'm guessing not. So. Crusades VS the entire history of Islam. If Islam is SUCH a great religion, and the fanatics have 'hijacked' it, what was it based on? Exactly what was hijacked? Well, its founder set the precedent in sieging cities, forcing people to follow his orders or having them killed, stoning elderly women to death, and having sex with 9 year old girls. Hmmmm. Like you said, Malcolm, "Islam is a great faith." Great compared to what, exactly?

Christ, on the other hand, confronted a crowd of zealots who wanted to trap him in an argument, so they produced a woman caught in adultery. He merely told them that they were all imperfect just as she. They left. So much for stoning women to death. Second, Christ told one of his best friend who was trying to save his life to drop his weapon. Sound just as great as Mohammed, hmmmm?

And third, the Crusades are the exception to Christianity, not the rule, unlike Islam's military expansion the moment of it's inception and continued violent confrontation with all critics. As demonstrated WITH FACT above, the conquests of Islam followed Mohammed's example.

And don't start with the myth of the 'flowe

Isn't there a saying about "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen"?

Well Rick, maybe in NY there is a dress code for people being allowed to walk the streets or consult their elected representatives.

But those of us in Scotland who actually believe in that old fashioned idea called FREEDOM believe that people can wear any damn thing they want, including veils.

Reading some of these comments it is clear that many of the people here would have voted for Hitler.

I am glad most of you don't live in Scotland.

Miss H
No-one is actually stopping these women from walking around the streets dressed as they please. I would say that it is common courtesy to show your face to someone when you are speaking to them. Anything else is exceptionally rude.

JG if you read the posts you will see that a number of people have objected to women walking the streets wearing veils, apparently because they might frighten children.

Personally I worry more about the hordes of drunken neds and druggies walking the streets. I think most kids would find them a wee bit more scarey than women wearing veils.

But I suppose it is all a matter of perspective and which you find most threatening.

I love the logic, Miss H. Simply by reading the comments you are sure that most would have voted for Hitler.

Ironclad.

I listened to Jack Straw's full interview on the BBC - His position does not seem unreasonable. He is simply stating a preference that if he is talking to a muslim woman, he would ask that to aid communication btween them, she show her face. If she says no, then he said that's ok, and he tells them that. That's what the man said. Why does the fact that Mr Straw talk about such a simple request bring so many people out hives?
Incidently #15, 25,26, 31,35,38 need to exercise a bit of restraint and some manners. Reasoned arguments works best if you want to influence anyone.

Apologies about the brevity of that last one.

Hitler had quack scientists to preach that the Aryan race was superior because of better genetics. That was the cornerstone of his ideology. Jack Straw and the people here that are opposed to Islam are aware of the history of the religion. Fact vs fiction. Don't assume that one equals the other in argument. They don't.

44. Miss H /give me neds and drunks any time.

Thank you Charles. You succinctly summed upnthe salient points against Islam. Most history books mention the Crusades as am christian pillage. The very fact that is sometimes it is capitalized indicates the bias. People forget that Islam was conquering its way northward very quickly. Didnt the mooselems get near Vienna in the 18 century?? We almost lost europe. Everytime I go back to UK I talk to people and they already feel as if they have lost their country--they all are finding ways to go to France, Australia, US or Wales or Scotland. AWAY from the ethnics.

Miss H
I DID read the posts and so far no-one has actually STOPPED Muslim women from dressing as they please - certainly there have been many objections expressed, but that was the point of these comments, was it not?

I too would find a group of drunken neds and druggies more frightening than a woman in a veil (well, nearly always anyway!) but that doesn't mean people shouldn't identify who they are and have the good manners to show their face to you when in conversation.

Miss H, I live in Scotland and the views I have been reading are the views of most people I talk to. And none of us would have voted for Hitler. There has not been even the slightest suggestion of a law to prevent Muslim women wearing their veils or whatever. They are free to wear whatever they or their husbands want them to wear. The furore is over Jack Straw politely ASKING them if he could see their faces, just while he is having a conversation with them, which would not have been out in public and a woman would be there.

No JG nobody has managed to stop women wearing veils - but they WANT to.

That is kind of the point.

Why do people want to stop women wearing veils? What business is it of theirs to begin with?

You have people here making all kinds of wild allegations about plots to take over Europe based on a discussion of the fact that some Muslim women choose to wear a veil.

Preposterous paranoid nonsense. Exactly the same mindset as people who voted for Hitker.

Ditch the veils. When Saudi Arabia (location of Mecca) practices actual religious tolerance (instead of beating/jailing/killing people who practice anything but Islamisism) , then Muslims will find fewer objections in the free world to their choice of garb. At this point in time, it's oppression-wear so don't offend others who value freedom by wearing clothing that expresses not choice .. but religious and cultural intolerance.

i think miss h should go cuddle up to some these peaceful muslims as she doesnt know the diffrence between a request and a demand,

No True Scot read the story this discussion is actually about.

Mr Straw has said that women should "think about the implications on community relations" of wearing a veil.

That is a bit more than asking them to remove their veils when they are talking to him privately. That would hardly be a news story would it?

Maybe you should think how you would feel if Scotsmen were asked to "think about the implications on community relations" of wearing a kilt.

Miss H
This is actually Britain and the Muslim people tell us they want to "integrate" with our society (which is fine) - do you think not being able able to see someone's face when you are speaking to them is a good way of fitting in here?

I'll bet you were happy enough to see the authorities cracking down on "hoodies". Why did they do that? BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T SEE THEIR FACES.

Who was "Hitker"?

Miss H,

Then I suggest a little test for your FREEDOM "to wear any damn thing [you] want, including veils." Wear just socks and shoes on your way to work next week. We have laws in our civil societies that have cost blood many times over. With the bending over backwards to accomodate the intolerant, more blood will be shed, as is happening with the new uncivil wars in Europe. As I said above, cultural acclimation is a two-way street. How are muslims acclimating to our societies? How are they adapting to our cultural norms?

And I must say, your blase attitude over this issue shows me why Western women's rights groups are so silent on muslim mysogyny. When it comes to the hijab/burqa/niqab, it's a case of, "Well, it's not happening to me (yet). So why bother?" But what you are really allowing to happen is for your society to incrementally suffer the Death of a Thousand Cuts. Every new muslim demand for respect and tolerance, when neither are returned, is one more nick. Never forget: islam likes to go for the jugular.

Miss H

I would think that the Scotsmen would think that since they are, after all, in SCOTLAND, nobody would have a problem. That is, not Scots.

Just my thoughts, though.

However, if a Scot were to try and wear a kilt in, say, Yemen.......actually, I doubt he would try, out of RESPECT for the country he is living in.

Do I detect a double standard?

#52 Who the heck is Hitker? No one is saying they cannot chose to wear the veil. They can, Jack Straw was just asking if they would mind taking it off whilst they talked. They just have to say "no thanks! "and he's fine with it. Why take insult from a polite request that can easily be declined?

This point about drunken/drugged people being more or less 'frightening' than veiled women is ridiculous and illogical! Are we to somehow infer that the "superior" Islamists don't suffer addictive disorders? One thing has nothing to do with the other .. unless, of course, you want to explore the idea of people being held captive to an ideology ( that may as well be a drug ) that insists upon forcing itself upon its adoptive culture instead of adapting to that culture's mores on dress etc. What happened to all the shrill Islamic voices that, after 9/11 were insisting that the veil etc. "had nothing to do with Islam" but were non-Islamically mandated cultural manifestations? Which one is is: political wear or religious wear? Or is there (very problematically) no difference in between those domains in Islam? There IS quite a difference in those domains in the West. Get rid of the costume.

I think it entirely reasonable to ask people not to cover their faces. In this day and age when terrorism is a real threat in the world it could be anyone behind that mask and swathed in a burkha. Man or woman, armed or benign.

It is quite unfortunate that vast majority of people tend to have lost their morale value, if it is possible to go on for hours on telephone conversations even with someone one had never met nor set eyes on without any discomfort, i then wonder why Jack Straw was not comfortable without asking women in veil to remove the veil. when women that walk around the street in nudity do not get condemnation again because they are in "christian country", then this world is turning into animal kindom, if those in nudity have not been classified as intimidating by John from califonia, then i think, people should check their morale value.

For goodness sake why must you see a woman's face before you can talk to her?

I certainly would not ask any Muslim to become British- why would I ask someone to do something I refuse to do myself? As far as I am concerned I am Scottish, Britain means nothing more to me than a geographical label. Most Muslims I know are of Asian origin and describe themselves as Scots Asians not British Asians. So they are actually more patriotic in my book than many indigenous Scots.

European mooselem 'civil' groups are working their way up Europe's neck. I predict a race war--not a riot--within 5 years. It will start in the UK and spread.

Well Rick you may 'have laws in our civil societies that have cost blood many times over'

In the case of the USA of course most of that blood was shed by the indigenous inhabitants who were ethnically cleansed to make way for your civil society.

So forgive me if I find a lecture on cultural acclimation from an American a little amusing.

59 - because that is not what he said. Why don't you read the story you are commenting on? Jack Straw has asked Muslim women to "think about the implications on community relations".

i feel mr. straw is right. if they don't want to take off theri veil then stay home and don't go out into the constituiency. i have no pity for women who voluntarily let men abuse them.

Ishaq,

I doubt people have lost their moral value because we are uncomfortable with a hostile religion (one in which NO major group has ever condemned the use of violence to spread itself) that will not integrate into greater western culture (greater here meaning 'larger').

And there is a large group of people that do not walk around nude in western culture. I would think that this group is the vast majority, but admittedly I have no sources.

That said, I agree that it is wrong to walk around in public nude. I also think that it is wrong to propagate a culture/religion/politic that encourages women to abase themselves. The burqa is a nod to the notion that women are evil, tempting creatures who exist to cause men to sin.

Excuse me while I puke.

The mere fact that some wear it tells me that they have been subjugated, knowingly or not.

And get off the phone crap. People use phones when they AREN'T face to face. If you weren't aware of this before, you shouldn't be leaving posts here. Go back to school.

Oh Miss H please!

Most Native Indians were wiped out innocuously by European diseases (smallpox etc.). Some tribes were also plenty busy massacring each others villages (including women and children--(oh noble savage!).

Please read SOMETHING other than your standard school history text!!

In Peace.

Miss H
Like it or not YOU ARE BRITISH. You can call yourself Scottish if you like, but as it stands at the moment you are also British - so am I.

Nevertheless, do you not think if you wanted to live in another country you would make the effort to blend in? Is hiding your face really "blending in"?

How right you are Paul. Check out this site www.bnp.org.uk and see for yourself what is happening to this country. As for Jack Straw, well he and his ilk are actually responsible for the coming chaos/race war. No-one was ever asked did we want a multi-culti-racial society. It was foisted on us by the political pygmies the sheeple elected. The chickens coming home to roost springs to mind! The wearing of sacks by these muslim women should be banned. All it takes is for dedicated 'suicide killers' to don a sack with a slit to see from, strap on their bombs, and casually stroll into a crowded store and pull the cord! Boom, a hundred infidels wiped out in one fell swoop, and the glories of 72 'virgins' awaiting the 'martyr'. Why bother with planes, too much bother. Especially since this pathetic country's 'leaders' are terrified of losing votes to the millions of muslims who vote for them. No searches will ever be down, we can't offend them can we?, so it amazes me it hasn't been down yet. Time will tell. Enoch Powell was Right! Just a decade or so out. Waken up fools, we are sleepwalking into disaster.

Miss H, you said, "In the case of the USA of course most of that blood was shed by the indigenous inhabitants who were ethnically cleansed to make way for your civil society." Obviously not a student of American history, are you, much less world history? But you sure have those ultra-liberal talking points down pat. Look up a little thing called the American Civil War, and check out the casualty lists. And that war ended up eradicating slavery here. So yes, I stand by what I said about our societies having civil laws that have cost much blood. It seems that you want to revisit those days of yore today. Pity.

BWAAAAAAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!

Miss H, you are totally off your rocker.

Ethnically cleansed? By whom? And how?

Seriously. Answer those legitimate questoins.

Oh, wait, you don't know.

They weren't ethnically cleansed at all. 95% of them died from European diseases, which the American people had no resistance or exposure to before 1492. As far as I know, there was no USA at that time.

Also, I really doubt that Rick was alive or would support genocide. I do like your generalisation that Americans aren't as enlightened as you are, or that since several army units and personnel were engaged in war with Indians discredits Rick's point.

By your reasoning, it is WE 'Americans' who should be turning a deaf ear to you 'Europeans' about the whole genocide thing. It is, after all, your 'greatest' contribution to the 20th Century.

Don't like that? You shouldn't. Because it is not true. Don't throw crap and you won't get it on yourself.

I agree completly with Anne and Craig, and don't feel as if you are the only country with a spineles government, you've got lots of company! I cannot fathom why WE are expected to comply with everyone elses beliefs and accord them every courtesy, while they feel that they do not have to reciprocate. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" Remember, you are in OUR countries and should expect to have to adhere to our laws and customs

Aaah! Craig, your comment would also apply to Canada..well said!

JCPKAG

I just visited the British National Party's website and donated 25 very precious, wonderful POUNDS (soon to be riyadhs).

I recommend that all of you do the same.

Bring back WINSTON!!!

Thus spaketh Miss H: "So forgive me if I find a lecture on cultural acclimation from an American a little amusing."

Just for your little mind, the United States is the most racially and ethnically diverse country on the planet since the fall of Rome. Stuff that in your haggis and eat it. Somebody sane help me out here: What's Scottish for 'twit'? This Miss H is one, whatever it's called, in spades.

#77 Rick
No, "twit" covers it!!!

In a world of fear and distruction , to worry about someone choosing to wear a vail according to their on beliefs, is making a mountain out of a mole hill. This certainly does not win friends and influence people, nor contribute to any process of positve solutions to betterment the planet. If we all want honesty and such, lets be extreme and run around in our birthday suits. While such people as Jack Straw are nit picking, people are out there dying on all sides . He and the Pope should get together and stay home and complain to their tvs.

WHY ALL THE FUSS??
Ii it's so important NOT to show you'r face, then why don't their female?? newsreaders on the T.V. wear the yashmak? could it be that along with 1000s of their countrywomen (all good moslems obviously) are hoping to meet and get the attention of either a wealthy westerner or an even wealthier son of the desert with interests in oil.
Personally from what i've sen 90% of them should be MADE to wear a disguise of some form anyway.
Perhaps i'm being a little too cynical, BUT !!!!!!

Why all the fuss; if everyone talks about freedom of speech or opinion and respect of each others beliefs why this is such a big deal. Dont anyone have better things to do. Jack can say what he wants;and those women can wear what they wants;if none is comfortable with each other, so big deal,move on

" There is no compulsion in the religion" verse from the koran. So Aaron; u are not doomed or become headless; it is between u and god ; the rest of us so called human have no right to pass sentence. Believe me!

# 38. Craig. (And earlier postings from you.)

There is some degree of truth in what you have written. But supporting the BNP is not the answer. The BNP are far too extreme. Let's not go there.

Britain is a pluralist society and we have to find successful ways of co-existing. Tolerance of racial and religious differences is a vitally important way forward.

Of course, it works both ways. Immigrants to this country have to meet us at least half way.

Dear Liz

Given the current climate of ignorance and the liberal constituents that enjoy a monopoly on it, it would seem obvious that the impending mountain construction project of PC submission to Islam sensitivities is the sure result of many years of foolish little molehills.

Could someone please reconstruct that sentence for me??

No compulsion huh? Tell that to Abdul Rahman. These guys seem to disagree with you (p.s. they use research and fact to back them up... while you use......nothing)
"There is no compulsion in religion." (The Qur'an 2:256)
This Qur'anic verse is used by Muslims to defend themselves against the charge that Islam is an intolerant religion. The charge of intolerance has been haunting Muslims everywhere since the beginning of Islam. Is this charge well founded or is it a false one?

To answer this question we shall look at what the Muslim scholars have said about the issue and at this verse in particular. We will also look at some historical facts related to that issue.

NO COMPULSION - WHEN?

Of the verse "There is no compulsion in religion", the scholar Nahas said:

"the scholars differed concerning Q. 2:256. Some said: 'It has been abrogated [cancelled] for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fought them and did not accept any alternative but their surrender to Islam. The abrogating verse is Q. 9:73 'O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them.' Mohammad asked Allah the permission to fight them and it was granted. Other scholars said Q. 2:256 has not been abrogated, but it had a special application. It was revealed concerning the people of the Book [the Jews and the Christians]; they can not be compelled to embrace Islam if they pay the Jizia (that is head tax on free non-Muslims under Muslim rule). It is only the idol worshippers who are compelled to embrace Islam and upon them Q. 9:73 applies. This is the opinion of Ibn 'Abbas which is the best opinion due to the authenticity of its chain of authority."[1]
In exempting the Jews and the Christians from Q. 2:256, the Muslim scholars agree that the idol worshippers can be compelled by force to embrace Islam.

It is clear that, whether Q. 2:256 was abrogated or not, the sc

Dear Sally

You are a fool if you think that 1000 good english folks with your attitude will stand up to 100 fervent moslems bent on converting or killing before they enter into a 72 virgin paradise.

Scots do not have a history of being the most tolerant of folks. They hardly welcomed the Irish with open arms, and they have a long History of not getting on so well with their English Neighbours. Many still grumble and hold a grudge about it today. Ever wonder about the cutlural background of those ugly people that dreamed up the idea of THE KLAN. Funny word Klan - Oh they must have been Polish or Muslim!

dammit, was cut off.

To sum, there is compulsion in Islam. Always has been. Always will be. It is there because Muslims believe that Islam is the Truth (it is not) and therefore it is permissive to make people accept the truth. Their becoming Muslim justifies compulsion. Don't make me dig up more on this, you will only get whacked.

What is with people giving out their opinions on matters that they know little or nothing about? Uninformed opinion should not be tolerated.

r:

Of course there is no compulsion in religion according to the koran. One is either killed, accepts dhimmitude (until the end times come, then that choice goes out the window), or becomes a muslim. islamic free choice at its best/worst. If there is no compulsion in religion according to the koran, then explain what happened to those two American reporters in Gaza that were forced to convert to islam at gunpoint in front of a camera. Now if those reporters backslide, they become apostates and subject to death. Great li'l psychotic 'religion' you got there. But that's what happens when a warlord creates a religion out of the bits and pieces of other faiths in order to control his new empire, and other people, centuries later, still believe him. Thanks, but I'll pass. I'll stick with Voltaire, Mozart, and DaVinci (a good multi-culti trilogy if there ever was one).

Mick you moron. Those ugly people were hillbillies from southern states bent on keeping their economy for themselves. You can find nasties wherever you go, POINT IS THAT AMERICA NOR CHRISTIANITY CONDONES THE KLAN. QUITE THE OPPOSITE!

And in Canada, we have the French who grumble and complain that they aren't getting enough from the rest of the country.

What is your point?

Charles,

I'm so glad the US ended up with the good French Canadians! Cajun food is great! The zydeco music ain't so bad, either. Maybe what those French Quebecois need is some healthy 'gators in the 'hood. Helps in attitude readjustment.

Miss H is an idiot, I used to live next to the warm springs reservation, which most natives don't seem to want to leave, they like being out in the mountains, there are no border guards forcing them to stay, and the kids attend a diverse ethnic school with the americans of every stripe in the city.

they make the best fry bread too!

but as their half the rural population of Oregon, I don't see how 95% were annilihated, they live freely, and enjoy all the freedoms and liberties as every citizen does,

I for one am A grateful immagrant here, and they've accepted me, and treated me as one of them (the whites, the chinese, Native, and Hispanic Americans all)

America Akhbar

It looks like Jack has grown a pair to combat Dr. Reid in the "I want to be firm but fair" debate aka the race to be deputy leader of the labour party. So many great scholars commenting on this ma heids fair birlin'. Still get a grip on where you live or go where they live like you.

What could possibly be wrong with saying "Would you mind removing your veil? I would feel so much more comfortable talking with you if I could see your [beautiful--adjective optional] face."

Straw is not forcing them to commit this gross immodesty; he's just being honest about his reaction. Whenever I go to a Muslim country I am expected to show "cultural sensitivity" by covering my bare arms and not, for instance, walking around in a miniskirt. (And I have always done so, if only to avoid being stoned to death...) All Straw seems to asking is that Muslim women be aware of the reaction Westerners have and to perhaps show us some "cultural sensitivity."

Is this the Jack Straw who was foreign secretary when Iraq was illegally invaded?
A war criminal?
And now he wants to see what their women look like?

I would like to know how these Muslim women get a bank account up and running. Surely the bank manager would have to see their faces?
Have you tried getting an account these days?

A newsreader is questioned for wearing a cross, a footballer for making the sign of the cross, Christian symbols. Why should muslim women have a right that we Christians are denied - that of openly wearing a symbol of our religion?

It is time for Christians to stand up and be counted. Turning the other cheek is seen as weakness by non Christians.

Seriously though, when I look at a Muslim woman I feel I'm looking at a non-person. How do you get through this barrier that they seem to project from behind the veil?

Charles, my point is that it is rude to point. It's also rude to be hurling terms of abuse to advance an argument. We should spend some time looking to ourselves and our own shortcomings. I have a few, perhaps you do too.
From which cultural background did the hillbillies or Southerners , who you seem to dismiss for looking after their own interests (misguided and ugly though it was) come from? Scotland perhaps? It's suprising to see the hostility to wards immigrants on these pages. Many seem to be arguing from some fanciful superior moral notion of themselves compared to "forreigners". You take insult when none was intended as evidenced by your reference to America and Christians- I never implied that there was any condoning of the Klan from either. Although you do make my point precisely - we "find nasties wherever you go" - even among our own folk.

You devalue yourself, not me, by calling me a moron.

Maybe we feel threatened by them because we cannot read their body language. We want to associate because we have a built in gene for association and by wearing the veil they are sending the message 'KEEP AWAY'.

#86. Paul. Let's be sensible. There is no 72-virgin paradise.

Tolerating other people's reasonably-held religious beliefs is essential for peaceful co-existence.

However, they need to show tolerance of others in return.

Mick, please shut up. The whole reason Britain is in the mess it is in with extremist moslems is because we as a society and culture have spent 40 years "looking to ourselves and our own shortcomings".

NOW it is time to spend 40 years looking at Islam's shortcomings. And don't give me any of that crap about "the British empire sowed the seeds etc. blah blah blah..." Christianity and democracy (its political wing) have changed this world immeasurably for the good, regardless of its oft-touted failings.

So there.

101. Sally Forth, Edinburgh / I agree. if there was 72 virgins what happens when you ,lets say,make her a non virgin,does she get replaced with another virgin?.

Bill......ah, why waste my time.....

Sally.

My point exactly. If Islam WERE a reasonable belief I might tolerate it better. However, since it is inherently ridiculous and devoid of any reason, I cannot muster the tsunami of tolerance required.

well i am muslim and to be honest it doesnt say any where in islam to cover your whole face and look like a black ninja . we live in UK and we must follow UK law's
i believe it is a bit rude talking to somone whos face is all covered in mask.

#98 Anne

When I look at a moslem women all dolled up, I feel like I am looking at a walking shadow. Is that what they had to do to the women to get the men to stop raping them? If this characteristic of middle-eastern men be true, then Moreham'id did women a favor by throwing a tent over them.

Unfortunately Islam is a simple Mickey Mouse faith for simple Mickey Mouse people who still live in the equivalent of the West's medieval times.

It is a one way set up where they have to be tolerated and evryone else is wrong.

We also hear regularly of "Muslim scholars" - what a contradiction in terms!!

All religion is nonsense in my book but Muslims with their vicious , archaic, foundationless ideas should not be either in the UK or the west. THEY BELONG TO A VIOLENT STUPID CREED - WHO ELSE GOES ALONG WITH ABUSE OF WOMEN AND NONSENSE SUCH AS 72 VIRGINS IN THE AFTERLIFE IF YOU COMMIT A MURDEROUS ACT AGAINST THE "INFIDELS"? AND AS FOR THAT STUPID, SIMPLE "GOD IS GREAT" NONSENSE...

Anne,

Then again, "The General" had his eye on his 9 year old niece, so he threw a garment over her because the girl was evil because she excited him. It wasnt poor ol' Mo's fault, was it?

It sure must a bin tough being a middle eastern man. All those evil hot chicks flaunting their ankles forcing men to molest them

Right on Ali.

Mick, your reference to the Klan is most frequently used as an attack on Christianity. I may have thought that you were doing just that.

Of course most people here are morally superior to the Islamic religion or Muslims. Have you not been reading my earlier posts? I have yet to read a response to the first, in which I challenged a poster to dig up something 'good' doctrine in Islam that wasn't plaigarised from Christ. He can't, because there is none.

Uh-oh. Does that sound absolutist? Am I....intolerant? No. I am just stating a fact.

And as for the moron comment.......if the glove fits. You seem to give equivalency where none is present. Maybe moron is wrong, ignorant is better.

My bad.
P.S. No offence, btw. You just don't seem to know.

BNP? away ye go ye bloody half wits....gawd subjects like this always bring the ghost of Alf Garnet back. As for the comments on what muslim women look like under the veil, get a life you f******g prats! Its cultural, not religious and strikes me as a form of oppression. If you want to wear it walking down the street fine but dont expect people to understand as it is an obvious barrier to communication

Bill;

And since when does a nation need permission from others to invade? Please find me an example of this.

Illegal war. Phsah. By who's standards? And remember what Pascal said, "law without force is impotent". I would argue law without force is just opinion.

My personal feeling is that if you want to wear a veil and are so offended by following traditions in a "western" community or country, you should go back to the middle east or whatever country you come from. When you live in a country that is secular and not ruled by religious groups you should follow the majority. When the western world starts bowing down to narrow fundamentalist groups I personally believe this is really wrong. I have lived in countries in the east and they certainly impose their beliefs on all people living there no matter what your personal beliefs are (i.e., not being able to drive (as a woman) in Saudi Arabia). What is wrong with with a government that bows to a strident and isolated minority? If these groups don't respect the laws and customs of the country they are living in they should simply go back to their own countries asap!

I used to get on really well with the muslims who own the only local shop for that area,like a lot of people did .But it all changed after 9/11,I thought i was hearing things But they were laughing and joking about it very openly with an extra spring in their step,and i heard a few coments about it in sneering comments like Happy idependence day to me ,? And even pensioners started to not shop there i still havent used the shop like a lot of people here,Things have gone bad for the shop as i believe ,But since all that, Govt offices cant play xmas music cant call it christmas Religous festival i believe they call it,When i heard on tv when young british muslims were going back and forwrd to pakistan etc to fight ,to train and kill british people ,etc ,Im glad i made the decition not to use their shops Because we can all make a difference by not shopping in their shops,As thats obviously were these trips are financed,I believe their God is money,And it is my democratic right Not to shop in their shops ,Im not rascist ,I dont really give them i thought now ,I just go about my everyday like i did before 9/11,

Just how ignorant many of the people here are surprises me.
To the commentors No:-
1. You keep valueable things hidden, If you had a diamond or a big pile of banknotes, you would not be showing it off and tempt people. If you read genuine history (non propoganda), you will learn that the crusaders started the wars saying tht 'Islam has given too many rights to women'.

5.Which law says that veil is illegal ? Tell the nuns as well.You are basically saying that the nuns, who are highly respected as Christians do not deserve it.

6.Next time you go to hospital, take a look at who the doctors are.
Who taught the Europeans about cleanliness ?Go back 100 years in history. Even Queem Victoria only bathed twice a year, so how often did the peasants bathe ? For Muslims, it is compulsary to take a bath after sexual relationship.

11. Obviously, you do not go to church, because you are freightened of black dress

15, Three shootings at schools in America in one week !

I am not going to reply to any more comments because it seems that most of the people are ignorant and brainwashed by the anti-Islamic propoganda over the past 700 years or so.

115. Ahmed, UK /Chill out man,stay cool.

Just surfed over for the muslim posts. N°28 & 106.
Glad to see posts like yours.

Hey, Ahmed, would these precious "things" be women? They are PEOPLE not things!

As for Muslims teaching us about cleanliness, that's a joke, surely? One look at the filthy kitchens of a few local Pakistani restaurants knocks that on the heid!

I worked with many muslims all over Europe, in kitchens: Most stank. Mustn't have been having sex then...if the bath is compulsory and all, eh? also they whined 'til they got time off for Ramadan, when I, a Catholic (and a devoute one) couldn't get Easter or Christmas off.

If your "culture" is so great, move to a country that practises it, mate. Stay out of mine!

Salaam,

Having read the comments above, I feel that as a Muslim I need to clarify a few facts:

1) Women choose to wear hijab voluntarily. It is not forced upon them.

2) Islam orders its followers both men and women to dress modestly, to keep thier gaze lower. This is obligatory. There is no consensus on the exact nature of "modest dress", but it atleast involves a headscarf and loose clothing. The aim is to not invite any prying eyes.

3) I want to live my life according to my faith, I also respect every persons right to live according to their beliefs as long as they do not cause harm to the society we live in.

4) Many people who have posted comments above seem to have a knowledge of type of Islam unknwon to me and to all Muslims I know.

5) Mr Jack Straw has right to say what he thinks, and I as a Muslim am completely free to ignore them.

6) And finally, if we are to avoid unneccesary hatred and ill feelings we need to start talking, not in an emotional finger pointing, but to truly understand each other and recognising thet each one of us is only responsible for ourself and no one else.

# 106 Ali khan:

Nice post. Well said.

"i believe it is a bit rude talking to somone whos face is all covered in mask."

There's that and there's the question of how does one safely drive or do certain jobs, among many problematic questions raised by the Wahhab-influenced islamicizing of the full female body covering. A total male domination and control thingy, a fear -- leading to oppression of -- women. Just like that Female Genital Mutilation, a 'cultural' relic that hangs on in not only Saudi Arabia, but in many parts of Africa and in other places. This burqa nonsense should be ridiculed for the grotesque misogyny it is. The women suffering under such horrors deserve no less.

I remember reading about the plight of Afghani women under the Taliban. Afghanistan was never like that, had that type of islam. But thanks to the influence of the Yemeni/Saudi Bin Laden pushing his Wahhabism, the cultural heritage of that land-locked piece of real estate was conquered and lost. We are still trying to reclaim it.

Screw the Wahhabs. Not that the Shi'a Mad Mullahs in Iran are any better, yet they are much more of an immediate nuclear danger. The Wahhabs are taking a different anaconda-like tack, as opposed to Iran's deadly venomous one. But both have the same results in the end. The prey is consumed.

Ahmed, women are not 'valuable things' to be hidden, they are not your possession to control in order that they do not 'tempt people'. You know fine well that this is not just what the veil is all about. If men have a problem coping with unveiled women and wish to possess them/rape them then you must deal with the men as THEY are the problem. By the way a nuns habit represents her particular religious order and is entirely different from an islamic veil. But you probably know that too?

Well said Rizwan

On another point - is it a big no-no for muslim women to get jiggy with westerners? The reason i ask is that those eyes at the top of the page are HOT HOT HOT, i wouldn't mind seeing the rest of her coupon.

Is this taboo? Or are women free to mingle?

Eric #114 - i know what you're sayimg, i don't believe you are rascist. i know people who feel the same way about jews. (not me).

118. rizwan, UK / I agree well said pal,after all we are all supposed to be human.

Pauline #97 - easy - the power that be want you to feel like you're being attacked, threatened in your own country in order to gnerate hatred of muslims.

This is turn will allow you to sanction their wars in muslim countries, which will be happening for the next 50 years.

It's a massive psy-op.

You can thank me later for waking you up.

# 115 Ahmed:

"1. You keep valueable things hidden, If you had a diamond or a big pile of banknotes, you would not be showing it off and tempt people. If you read genuine history (non propoganda), you will learn that the crusaders started the wars saying tht 'Islam has given too many rights to women'."

Yes, but that was then and this is now. With islam regressing in this area, The West is now light-years ahead in terms of women's rights and opportunities.

"5.Which law says that veil is illegal ? Tell the nuns as well.You are basically saying that the nuns, who are highly respected as Christians do not deserve it."

No offense, but we're talking the full body bag treatment here, not a veil. Look at the photo above.

"6.Next time you go to hospital, take a look at who the doctors are.
Who taught the Europeans about cleanliness ?Go back 100 years in history. Even Queem Victoria only bathed twice a year, so how often did the peasants bathe ? For Muslims, it is compulsary to take a bath after sexual relationship."

Being clean is good.

Ahmed #115. I lived 15 yrs in a ME country. I never saw a woman in full 'guiness botttle' oufit unless they were Bedu women. Bedu were mostly Wahabi influenced and treated their women same as their stock.

Only when I came back to UK I was appallaed to see so many wearing the full gear. Can only be general Pakistani influence, I reckon.

Also, I do not recognise the brand of Islam in the UK as the Islam I knew in Oman.

Finally, I respected their ways and adapted to their society. No Christian worship, no preaching. Pity it doesn't seem to work that way for you guys.

I think this subject should be debated on TV with representatives from both sides present, lets thrash the whole thing out into the open. Lets find out from their religious leaders what the correct procedure is.

# 127 Ann:

"Lets find out from their religious leaders what the correct procedure is."

Truthfully? Who cares? The practice is wrong. It demeans and degrades women, and eventually will lead to specialized shari'a courts to handle certain matters involving women, to be culturally sensitive of course. Just not to the women.

#127 Anne
Why? All Jack Straw is asking is that he gets to see who he is talking to. It's only polite after all - I would expect the same courtesy as he obviously does. Many, many Muslim women wear a scarf to cover their heads (Nuns also just cover their heads - you can still see their faces) there really is no problem with that. Some people just go too far.

We don't [ rightly] put up with anyone wearing a motorcycle helmet.
We ask them to remove it.
Same-thing.

Why should anyone put up with the repression of women?
Oh yeah the bastards may get aggressive.
So I'll get away with it then?
What's that?
Only if I'm a Muslim.

F..k Off!

Hi Charles, I apologise on behalf of Ishaq.
There are lost of us reasonable people over "here" who do not possess similar opinions.
His loose definition of "nude" is one of those things that is wrong with that religion. They tend to see in Black and White as long as the subject does not favour them.
Why don't the men go around in veils - afterall they may also be tempting innocent women. They don't see anything wrong in one man having 4 wives (well, the religion encourages the view that women are senseless creatues subject to whims and so must be protected even if it against there will - human rights hello!)
And why is it 77 virgins awaiting the male Martyr.
May be there should 77 young studs awaiting the women Martyrs too. Let's have some equality before God and man!
Britain for the British (British here meaning anyone ready to abide by the norms of the country. By the way, I may migrate very soon m'self. Show me the nearest pub m'lord :-) (Even though I dont drink :-)
And as long as the BNP are not against coloured people they can have my vote - when I get over there that is!

Islam is a 7th century misogynistic, homophobic religion that has no place in the modern world. The modern UK is a mess. But we don't want to subjugate women or think that homosexuals are evil or practice polygamy. We also don't want to take over some host country and force it to bend to our wills, like many Islamists do.

www.melaniephillips.com/

The woman is a bit of a right-wing clown, but she makes a great many fascinating, frightening points about contemporary weak UK government thinking and their appointing raving anti-Semite and hatemonger Muslims to task forces on integrating Islam into the UK, who then oddly enough, come back saying the UK is to blame for its troubles and needs to change its foreign policy.

These twisted hatemongers are being allowed FAR too much political power and many view EVERYTHING about the contemporary 'weak, decadent' UK as being an assault on Islam. Seige mentality hypersensitivity. The hell with them all.

115 Ahmed
Three shootings at schools in America in one week

Three shooting in Baghdad in one hour. One Shite kilks 50 Sunni. One Sunni kills 50 Shitesi. One Shite kills 50 Sunni. One Sunii kills 50 Shites. etc, etc etc etc etc
etc, etc etc etc etc etc, etc etc etc etc etc, etc etc etc etc etc, etc etc etc etc etc, etc etc etc etc etc, etc etc etc etc
But Islam is a peaceful religion

With regards to the comments posted by Charles from Canada,

Here is what I consider to be true, (In the end only Allah knows best),

First of all the whole content of the verse 2;256 is

"Let there be no cumpulsion in religion:Truth stands out Clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hanhold, thet never breaks. and Allah heareth and knoweth all things".

The Quran in most of the places encourages to forgive but it also points out that warfare is sometimes necessary, for example it maintains that a war fought in self defence is justified.

"To those againest whom War is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged-and verily Allah is most powerful for their aid. (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right-(for no cause) except That they say, "Our Lord is Allah" Had not Allah checked one set of people by means of another ther would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagouges and mosques in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure." (22;39-40)

You have chosen to cite2:193 but you have conceniently opted to omitt some vey necessary details, including 190 and 192 the preceding verses)

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits: for Allah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out: for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter"

and the it says " but if they cease, Allah is Oft forgiving, Most Merciful"

And finally the complete contect of 2:193

"And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail Justice and faith in Allah: But if they cease let there be no hostility Except to those who practise oppression."

As should be clear by now, the Quran is explicit that t

Three cheers for Jack Straw .It is way past time to deal with these issues with common sense .Dump all the political correctness .Some muslim women in the US wanted to have their photos for their drivers lincenses taken with their veils on . Ridiculous !!A twit is a twit , no matter what country she lives in .

To Charles,

And finally, you oberve that islam is a plagiarised version of Christianity. Let me explain what is different in Islam:

The concept of Allah having children or being born on earth is completely rejected in Islam.

No one is born in sin. We all earn our own reward.

Adam and Eve made a mistake, they were forgiven for that by the merciful Lord.

Nicene creed is unacceptable to Muslims.

Islam requires people to ask Allah for forgiveness. No man can act as intermediary.

Judaism and Christianity are accepted in Islam as the Abrahamic religions. Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them) were true messangers of Allah, they brought the same message as Noah, Abraham and David hence for some of the similarities between them.

In the end Allah is all knowing.

SOHEL:
"...the idea of Muslim is to be modest; head covering was modest in year 700. Now when one wears head covering, it is an object of attention in the West, contrary to what it was meant for.

Head covering does not make a Muslim, it is our belief and good deeds that do."

Jack Straw was 100% correct. People hide their faces when they are up to no good.

Good deeds, huh? OK, where is the OUTRAGE from the millions of so-called "peaceful" Muslims around the world about all the killings, bombing, firebombing, etc., etc.,and basically hateful destructive behavior??

From what I have been able to discern about this evil, vile religion is that is is the most intolerant group of people ever.

What good deeds? If you made as big a deal over your "Good Deeds" as you do over a stupid cartoon, people might take you more seriously.

When you come to a country like the United States, Scotland, France or any other Western country, you need to assimilate and become American, or Scottish in your interaction with your fellow countrymen instead of hiding behind a "mask". What are you afraid of? Is it that your Muslim men cannot control their urges if they see a woman's face?What you do in your own home is your business, but "when in Rome, etc."

THAT is where your biggest problems are, considering that you and your religion are better than everyone else. It is becoming more obvious that you do not know much about what is actually in your Quran. You should try and explain the violent Suras and tell us how they do anot apply anymore.

It has been said by one of your leaders that "through YOUR (The Western nations) freedoms we will infiltrate you, and through OUR religion we will dominate you."

I certainly hope not. Europe (Eurabia) and the USA need to wake up and smell the coffe.

134. rizwan, UK / 12:05am And Then kriss Donald died because he was a white kid.

Paul 104

Come on! What's bugging you?

I find the whole issue an over reaction from a community that is feeling the bite of the extremists in their midst and yet who refuse to curb their own behavior. It has very little to do with religious freedom and everything to do with politics. One person's rights and privlidges end where another begins, they don't seem to understand that is the cornerstone of a free society. Why is it that everyone must show those of the Muslim faith repect for their culuture (not only religion) but they don't show an understanding or respect of the new culture in which they have chosen to live? I don't think that Mr Straw is showing disrespect toward the women or their faith, he asked that they not wear them during interactions with them in his role in the government, he didn't demand it. But notice how the Muslim organizations uses volitle words like "demand", they are the ones chosing to make this an issue and quite frankly, they need to grow up and get their own house of extreemists in order before they question those who they have chosen to live amongst. Shouldn't they be willing to respect the cultural norms of their adopted country? Tolerance and compromise needs to be a two way street, a basic value absent in their culture apparently.

Hi Garry,

You can certainly propose to a Muslim woman, and talk to her. As regards to knowing her "more" yes-if you marry her. Let me know when you get to that point. cheers!

Charles 112

We are supposed to live in civilised times. You only invade other countries with good reason - regime change is not one.

Illegal war is defined by international law, no just cause, no self defence, no good reason, no justification.

Blaise Pascal also said 'Justice without force is powerless; force without justice is tyrannical.'

There is no justice in the war against Iraq; it is tyrannical.

# 136 rizwan:

"The concept of Allah having children or being born on earth is completely rejected in Islam.

No one is born in sin. We all earn our own reward.

Adam and Eve made a mistake, they were forgiven for that by the merciful Lord.

Nicene creed is unacceptable to Muslims.

Islam requires people to ask Allah for forgiveness. No man can act as intermediary.

Judaism and Christianity are accepted in Islam as the Abrahamic religions."

How can you accept Judaism and Christianity when you reject so many of their tenets? That's a major contradiction you got there. Besides that, we're talking about the religiously mandated mysogyny that is rampant in islam. The whole 'a woman's testimony in court is worth one-half that of a man', or 'it takes four witnesses for a woman to prove she was raped' (and she'd better prove it or woe unto the woman who gets pregnant from such a sexual encounter, if one even dare call rape that). That's what the full female body covering, including covering of the face, signifies. Now whaddaya gonna do about that stuff?

Rizwan 118 and 134

Thank you for the information - very useful.

Screw the Saracens

"tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter"

SINCE WHEN?

That is insane. INSANE. Tell that to the Jews in 1945. "Don't worry, we're not oppressing you, just slaughtering you. It could be worse."

That makes me sick.

You really bought it, hook line and sinker, huh rizwan? I like how your Muslim concept of God puts him beyond all human understanding, yet in order for him to have a 'son' he has to physically impregnate a woman. Ok, anyone else spot the contradiction? Allah is irrational and imperfect, thus inferior.

Logical fallacies aside, how can you earn a reward when the measurement for success is total and absolute lifelong perfection? Impossible. And as for a man being an intercessory, in Christianity you are addressing God when you address Christ. If you can't understand that fundamental difference, shut up.

Bill, international law is set up by those with the most to loose. Regime change was obviously justified in the second world war. Saddam has murdered upwards of 1.5 million people. Not worth regime change, though. Because France wants uninterrupted imports. And there apparently was good enough reason for the States to invade. Not for France, but then again, they didn't invade. No big deal.

Rizwan, further, I like how you back my point with the Koran. I was cut off in my posting the research (which eventually concluded that there is more than enough justification in Islam for forced conversion....this by ISLAMIC scholars) but you finished nicely for me. The point is yours is a worldy religion. Your heaven is the best a sinful world can give. Your Allah cannot tolerate criticism, where my God is bigger than that. He needs no defending by me. That is the thing really pathetic about Allah - what will happen when you Muslims don't fight for him? Your religion will disappear.

And what Mohammed went through? Obviously not enough, as he was alive to waste Mecca.

One cannot have a meeting "face to face" with a barrier separating the parties. For those who choose to erect such a barrier, or those who would require such a barrier were the female members of their family to meet with a man, the appropriate means of communication should be by phone or email or by post: but certainly not in person. For one party to be at such a disadvantage; for one party to be so demeaned; is inappropriate. I respect that some choose to set themselves apart from equality: but they must not do so at the disadvantage or denigration of others. Mr. Straw is absolutely within his right to demand equality of position: as long as he is willing to communicate by means other than this unequal position espoused by those who oppose his position.

The Sunnis and Shias fighting in Iraq has nothing to do with Islam. It is politics. The Quran says regarding the Christians and Jews 'come to common terms with them' so it absurd to say that Islam condones war.
My wife does not wear a hijab but that does not mean that hijab is wrong. When you look deep into the subject, you would see that it is good and that is why I support it.
People talk of freedom and yet when someone chooses to dress in a certain way, there is uproar. Pure hypocracy.
I know that smoking is bad and I have been smoking for 35 years but I do not tell people that they should smoke. I am not a hypocryt.
My daughter-in-law serves in the shop without a hijab. Hundreds of men come into the shop.But when she goes out of the house, she wears a hijab. Nobody forces her. Are you people saying that I should force her to give up her dignity and join the crowd ?

I guess there is one thing learned here. It seems that most here are disagreeing with the uproar posted at the BBC right now (since I am somewhat of a tek noob, just paste this into your browser): http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/

watch the video at the top of the page.

Ahmed, I seriously doubt that your daughter in law finds her dignity in a piece of cloth. Rather, her dignity comes from being human, and acting in a responsible and mature manner. She would be no less dignified if the Hijab wasn't a part of her wardrobe.

Doreen,
You say that Nun's dress is a religious order {Christian} and veil is different. Why is it different when it is Islamic ?
Somebody earlier said that he lived in ME and saw little of jijab. That is true, abou 30 yrs ago, none of the people I know wore a hijab and many of them still don't but the young generation that grew up in the FREE society are wearing it so where is the oppression coming from ?
It is the result of freedom, when society says, 'make yourself an object of desire, they refuse to comply and do what they want to do. After Straw's comments,there will be more hijabs.

Ishaq, Nigeria - "For goodness sake why must you see a woman's face before you can talk to her?"

Because face to face, engaging with a masqued person is disconcerting. Even if you feel safe, it is impossible not to depersonalize a woman or man who appears to you only as "eye slits" covered in cloth. Consider the reaction in Nigeria if all men claimed it was their "tribal right" to wear balck ski masks everywhere.

Covering women like sacks of potatos to force public anonymity on them and enforce isolation from others to prevent assimilation is a recent radical Islamic invention. If you look at old pictures from the 40s-70s of Egypt, Pakistan, Bahrain, Palestinian areas, Turkey, Iran, Morocco you are struck by the lack of veils, or burquas, or chadors. Only in Salafi-dominated lands like Saudi Arabia or rural hinterlands was "cover" mandatory. The stuff shifted with the Iranian revolution, when the chador became madatory or jail and beatings awaited - and Sunni extremists soon rushed to emulate their Shiite counterparts and told their women to drape - or else. It has nothing to do with instructions in the Qu'ran. It is patriarchal - keep the lesser women bound, restricted, unable to freely socialize outside those of the Faith. Hajibs are even used as gang colors in the West to distinguish immigrants - different pattern and color for Hamas, Al Fatah, Shiite, Whabbist groups - so Muslim women even know the "right women to greet", and Believing men observing - know if women mingle without permission not just with infidel filth by observation, but with "bad" Muslims of different sects or political affiliation.

Miss H fatuously defines wearing a veil as a matter od choice, ignoring that the Muslim woman have absolutely no choice in many UK, Canadian, communities. It is now a command. Just like the present Muslim imperative to have large families to supply more Jihadis, especially if Western ta

Charles,
As I said ,many men come into the shop but she chooses to wear hijab when she goes out. Should she not have the freedom of choice ? Should she be forced to do what other people expect and ignore her own feelings ?

#118 - Amed, UK -

"1) Women choose to wear hijab voluntarily. It is not forced upon them."

Bullshit.
Women are commanded to do so by the man of their house, community pressure, even instructions from the local illiterate Saudi wahabbi running the mosque. To defy the local ROP community in the West means a woman is nearing apostasy and must be "guided back" to what is proper and decent.

"2. Which law says that veil is illegal ? Tell the nuns as well..."

Again, bullshit.
No law says they have to de-veil, but no law says we infidels are forced to interact with your Muslim women, allow them to drive wrapped up like mummies, or go to our free schools in OUR Western Civ dressed in a manner that discourages Muslim children from socializing, assimilating, or interacting with others. (Of course, with kids, that is the exact idea isn't it? To prevent the filth of infidel culture in an infidel land you voluntarily came to from infecting your females??)

The nun business is another red herring. They represent a sect, not a dress code imposed by intimidation on every Christian female.

#151 - Ahmed again - "but the young generation that grew up in the FREE society are wearing it so where is the oppression coming from ?
It is the result of freedom, when society says, 'make yourself an object of desire, they refuse to comply and do what they want to do. After Straw's comments,there will be more hijabs."

Again, bullshit.
It has nothing to do with FREEDOM, but everything to do with enforcing by intimidation or pressure the wearing of the hajib as a "new norm" in the West to show all that younger Muslims seek to create a Balkanized society that holds they have little in common with their fellow UK or Canadian or French citizens, but they do with "the brothers and sisters" in Palestine or Pakistan.

All while "demanding" manifestations of Western c

I agree with #1,#15 and Jack Straw.

As far as women have the freedom of choice to wear a veil or not they have no choice.

Surah 4:34 - Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Allah is high and supreme.

Thus according to the above quote "good women are obedient" so do as you are told or Koran 4:34 will come into play.

The Quran does not command the veil (Hijab). Wearing the veil is a tradition and is only supported by the man-made books of Hadiths and Sunna.

Now the veil is being used to make a political statement.

I agree with Anne and Craig on the hypocracy of the transplanted Muslims. Unfortunately it has been the continuing misguided policies of both Conservatives and Labour that has created this situation over the last fifty years. Enoch Powell I have to admit was right after all and I am a liberal by nature. I was a child in school during WW2 in England and I shudder to think what would have happened if todays England had to fight that war. We would have lost simple as that. There would have been no united front and we would have had millions of fifth columnists in our midst. Remember which side the Arabs were on, they supported Nazi Germany. Our childrens children will have to suffer the consequences of government stupidity and blindness, in their past and continuing immigration policies.

It is interesting to see how the direction a story, (which if you look at the face of it) could just as easily be construed as being about common manners and courtisy, could turn into other platforms which clearly people feel strongly about.

The way I read it, I would ask the same of a man who wished to speak with me inside if he was wearing a hat. It is part of my custom of conversation and hospitality to ask these things to be observed. The Japanese might ask for my shoes to be removed before I enter a building, I could refuse however that would be very impolite and could offend my host.

Purhaps this is a niaive view, however if people do feel strongly enough to refuse I see Mr Straw as willing to accomodate this 'request'. My final question is, who really has been offended by this?

Pax huic domui

Straw is right, for once, the veil being an integral part of Muslim enforcement of subservience on women. Just like polygamy for men but no polyandry for women, and the sorry sharia law that devalues women's testimony in court.
Ban it!

(BE HONEST TO JOURNALISM ) please report this issue in your News.

(Patriot Act) "Please Save Amercian Freedom and Justice System " My name is N J Shah (India) . We live in Bristol CT USA . My husband name is Ajmal Mehdi (Pakistan) . We were ( Human Faith ) married in New York cut off from our families because of religious problem moved to Bristol Connecticut USA. We were very happy have two kids America was safe for us we were Patriotic Citizen without signing Patriot Act . 1. 1996 I went to Pakistan to drop our daughter for four years so we could improve our education and financial condition here and decide not to go on welfare in USA was Patriot Act. 2. 2000 I was held in Pakistan for three days when i went to bring our daughter back just because i was Indian Born . Human right Geneva office helped us get back here in Connecticut USA . That day we thanked God and blessed American justice system and freedom. 3. July 2003 Hudson United Bank called my husband and said Mr.Mehdi you need to sign Patriot Act for one second you will think what did I do wrong then you will sing it because you have no choice . but you think what did you do wrong just wrote two Letter to editor one for New York Time and Other one for Hartford Currants about "How freedom can change life" or applying for police jobs . 4. June 30 2004 he pass Citizenship test but his Oath is held need background investigation almost four years no Oath yet . 5. Next some one write 187 K-town Dr. on the Property which mean" Homicide" by local police department which started mental problem for him can not sleep up all night doing Homeland Security thinking every minute of his life what's really going on is some one trying to give him psychological torture or real torture. 6. Lost his job because one customer wanted to Rearrange his face when he complained to his boss was fired from work . 7. I Start losing my small business here in our town we love Bristol and Ameri

(BE HONEST TO JOURNALISM ) please report this issue in your News.

(Patriot Act) "Please Save Amercian Freedom and Justice System " My name is N J Shah (India) . We live in Bristol CT USA . My husband name is Ajmal Mehdi (Pakistan) . We were ( Human Faith ) married in New York cut off from our families because of religious problem moved to Bristol Connecticut USA. We were very happy have two kids America was safe for us we were Patriotic Citizen without signing Patriot Act . 1. 1996 I went to Pakistan to drop our daughter for four years so we could improve our education and financial condition here and decide not to go on welfare in USA was Patriot Act. 2. 2000 I was held in Pakistan for three days when i went to bring our daughter back just because i was Indian Born . Human right Geneva office helped us get back here in Connecticut USA . That day we thanked God and blessed American justice system and freedom. 3. July 2003 Hudson United Bank called my husband and said Mr.Mehdi you need to sign Patriot Act for one second you will think what did I do wrong then you will sing it because you have no choice . but you think what did you do wrong just wrote two Letter to editor one for New York Time and Other one for Hartford Currants about "How freedom can change life" or applying for police jobs . 4. June 30 2004 he pass Citizenship test but his Oath is held need background investigation almost four years no Oath yet . 5. Next some one write 187 K-town Dr. on the Property which mean" Homicide" by local police department which started mental problem for him can not sleep up all night doing Homeland Security thinking every minute of his life what's really going on is some one trying to give him psychological torture or real torture. 6. Lost his job because one customer wanted to Rearrange his face when he complained to his boss was fired from work . 7. I Start losing my small business here in our town we love Bristol and Ameri

Seeing as muslims seem to take offence at all things minor and trivial why don't they all move to Gibralter where they can go about doing whatever they want wearing whatever they want. All the loyal British subjects in Gib can be relocated to the UK. Then we'll all be happy (apart from the apes, they'll probably be stoned to death for being Zionist spies.

The Ozzies have the right idea. They have been told if you want to live here in Ozz you live to our rules. If you done like it go home. If anybody is found causing problems your out.
Don,t come to Ozz and start telling us the way we should live.
I can only see bigger problems in the UK with Muslims and the UK people will fight back. The NF of the UK will grow in the next election and the streat wars will grow. Just look at what is happeneing in the EU, France, Holland and Germany they are causing problems everywhere.

I am a second generation Canadian.My father who emigrated from Italy met and married my mother in Montreal. I was born and grew up there in a time when the Royal Commission on bi-Culturalism and bi-Lingualism was struck, and for the first time since Confederation, Canadians were confronting there identity. Just a quick point to Charles #90, you have absolutlely no idea or knowledge of what you speak.To continue, I am fortunate to have lived in a mixed community where both the official languages, French and English, were spoken.The Commission on B&B was the main topic for discusssion and the subject of the British North America Act and the French Civil Code, the terms of Confederation, were openly and heatedly discussed. This whetted my apetite for Constitutional Law and I graduated with Honours from McGill (Anglo University) Masters from Laval(Franco University) and Doctorate from Queens (a WASP University). My chosen skills have been utilized, and sometimes compromised, in Human Rights cases in which the wearing of head and face coverings have been an issue. Muslim women and Punjabi men claim their right to wear the apparel, veils and turbans, falls under the Charter of Rights and therefore is both Human Right and a Religious apppendix. The turban has been officially recognized In the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, The Royal Canadian Legion and covering the face is the practice of Muslim women and only if it can be cited and proven that the veil is endangering society can you ask the wearer to cease. Jack Straw may be uncomfortable facing a veiled constituent but he must consider the discomfort of the same constituent in facing him after removal. The Muslim community is not a threat to the UK, it is an asset enriching you with access to a rich and noble culture. The racists and the bigots who are expressing themselves in this Comment column are the people who keep visitors to their country in the opinion that they are a rude, ill mannered and poorly educate

Charles,

I thought we were having a rational discussion. Please note that I have adressed you positively and have not attacked what you believe in (contrary to your comments)

Let me start again,

In case you have not read my posting carefully, I maintain that according to Islamic faith Jesus is not Allah's son.

3:59 " the similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; he created him from dust, then said to him: Be: and he was"

Secondly, yes, in Islam there is no intermediary between Allah and man, even the Prophet Muhammed is a mere "warner" of the Day of Judgement to come. Every man earns his own reward and punishment. I am not asking you to believe in what I believe to be true. We are talking, right?

When you say that Islam is a wordly religion, note
57:20 " Know ye (all) that the life of this world is but play and amusement, pomp and mutual boosting and multiplying, (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children" and it ends in "And what is life of this world, but Goods and chattels of deception ?"

As regards to a lifelong pefection, yes we strive to do that but almost never achieve that. We will make mistakes and we should always seek Allah's forgiveness.

As regards to the suffering of the beievers including early Christians. Yes that is true, but is also true of suffering of Jews under the Egyptians and of Muslims under Pagans. Faith always struggles against Unfaith. As I have said earlier and reiterate now, Jesus (peace be upo him) was a true messanger of Allah and a Sign from Him.

#138
Be assured that those who have killed any innocent person have committed a deed so wrongful as if committed the murder of whole hummanity. They should be punished in this world (whether its a Muslim or a Non- Muslim). In the Hereafter there is eternal misery for them.

#143

Thanks Sir,

Yes some of the points you have raised are very valid.