1st the newspaper, now an opera! When is the non-fanatical Islamists going to realize our very existence is being challanged... As a whole (moderate Christians, Muslims, Buddist, etc) we are on the path of a cultural war on a global scale! Fanatical Islamists will not allow anyone, ANYONE, who is not a convert to live, PERIOD! Trying to appease fanatical Islamists or putting our head in the sand will not work.

I have just two words for the world... WAKE UP!

Thank you,

As Muslims find the bible, bacon, beer, swimsuits, offensive, how long before they want these things banned as well?

I guess we'll have to agree, as we wouldn't want to offend them would we?

I am a 68 year old American who has watched freedom of expression slowly give way to those who would like to kill all western cultures. We seem to have surrendered out of fear. What if the British Empire and the USA gave in to Hitler out of fear, what kind of world would we be living in now? Shall we now get our young citizens ready to live under muslim rule due to fear? Where is the back bone that made us the free people we once were? When freedom of expression goes, freedom goes with it....that is a fact. The history of the west may be coming to an end.

How ironic; after all anyone who is not a Muslim automatically offends the “radical” Muslims, so why worry about offending them at all? If our very existence offends them, why be concerned about plays, newspaper cartoons, etc. The only way not to offend them is to cease to be, or convert. We cannot allow ourselves to be intimidated by them! Grow a backbone! If as a Christian I complain about something I see or hear, people are quick (and proper) to point out my freedom to not watch, listen, read etc, the offensive material. Why should Muslims be treated differently?

No 5 "What if the British Empire and the USA gave in to Hitler "

If they had done-then somehow I dont think there would be any worries about offending muslims in Berlin-probably because there would no muslims to be offended!

Islam is becoming the new nazism in our midst-and people in the west are becoming angrier at the attack on our hard-won freedoms. Muslims no-one asked you to come to our countries-if you dont like our ways then kindly go home-for the most part you will not be missed.

These people won't stop until we are all under Sharia law unless the west wakens up and starts to take a hard line.

This is very sinister. Last night a documentary on Channel Five went someway to redress the doublethink adopted by much liberal opinion in the West regarding Islam - practicing such self censorship will not assuage those who's interpretation of the Quran leads to terrorist attack.

In view of Scotland's support for free speech perhaps this production could visit next year's Edinburgh Festival.

While many in Europe have been eager to blame Israel as the source of all the problems with Islam, Islam has been creeping up on Europe to overwhelm it. Your freedom of speech is eroding. Your other freedoms will follow. Israel isn't the problem. Islam is. We are the pointmen - the ones who have to deal with the problem first. Follow us and learn from us.

Just a look at the comments in response to this question shows just how islamophobia is nothing but racism with a new bogey man. Free speech seems to be the banner, that and the notion of 'our values' used as a an attempt to legitamise their views is exactly that -racism. Respect people's beliefs, understand the harm that is caused by defiling what others deem to be sacred, or follow the line that has seen fear replace respect, and has sentenced thousands or Iraqis, Palestinians and Lebanese to death in the name of 'our values', the glory of war and naked greed.

Please don’t be biased about Islam. Please don’t fall in for the propaganda of imperialism and capitalist states through channel 5, CNN, BBC low voice tone documentaries.
Read just a little bit about the history of Islam and west from before 15-16 century. Research how Islam integrated itself with other.
If you think using your Sisters and Moms to sell an upcoming BMW CAR or a Candy bar, Gay Marriage and open sexuality, insulting others values is freedom of speech?
Islam is the most humanitarian religion.

Now before getting angry at me again just hold on for a moment and think from an other view. Coz I found Islam to be true religion comparing it with Christianity and Zionists. Do you?

Please do some kind of factual research before blaming Islam for eliminating freedom of speech.

On one hand, I fully agree that we cannot give up our freedoms to satisfy the Wahabbis and others that seek to destroy us, infidels - and I highly recommend the reading of the history of the Wahabbis by Charles Allen as elightening. On the other hand, this particular example, the opera, is a somewhat difficult one, since it is a modification of an opera (Mozart's original did not have the scene in question). What is to be gained by showing the heads of Jesus or Muhammad? Freedom of speech does not allow us to yell, "Fire!" in a crowded theather.

Responding to Wagas: each of the monotheistic religions have had a bloody history and each has fringe groups of fanatics. However, Islam is the only one using its extreme beliefs to kill hordes of people, including Muslims. Violence is at the core of the Wahabbis; violence is justified by promising the criminal paradise and 72 virgins (or mangos, depending on interpretation); violence is the basis for the anticipated coming of the Twelfth Imam; and so on. No, Wagas, Islam, as practiced is not a peaceful religion.

"Islam is the most humanitarian religion" ??
Give us all a break! How many mosques in this world
have individuals discussing war? Now ask yourself how many churches are preaching the same.
The differences are staggering, to anyone who can
"do some kind of factual research".

Another Western own- goal.
To submit to intimidation is shameful and cowardly, and doubly so, when it is only anticipated intimidation.
Freedom of speech and expression are fundamental human values , the denial and destruction of which, deprive us of our full humanity.

Waqas,

Propaganda! Are the beheadings that were proudly shown propaganda. Is indiscriminant s of women & children just to kill a few non-believers propaganda. I don't think so! I stand by what I wrote, Islam is a disease. It's intolorant to anything else but it's belief. Freedom comes at a cost, some good, some bad. I'd rather have the freedom that goes with BMW's & gay marriage than the tirany of Islam.
Maybe I just don't get it. Most contries where Islam is the predominate religion are awashed in oil money, but do they spend it on uplifting their peoples? No! They keep their masses illiterate and in fear. Just look at Iran and their population.

You state "Islam is the most humanitarian religion." Please give examples of that humanitarian in countries where Islam is the predominate religion... Also, give me an example where it's humanitarian towards another religion.

Please visit faithfreedom dot org. It might be an eye opener!

Islam is not the source killing being done nowadays. If you read history it was a christian who killed 6 milllion jews namely Hitler. He was second only to another christian and hopefully they will be followed by another chritian Mr. Bush. So please do not distort history. When Sullah-ud-din Ayubi captured jerusalem there was no blood shed after war. Islam is against blood shed. It even gives you rulesfor engagment in the state of War. Islam is not seperate from government. It is a complete way of life and Muslims believe it to be the best one.

Now coming to Marty's referal of muslims as people talking about War in mosques. Well do I need to say anything about that. Ofcourse if all over the world muslims are under war imposed on them then what do you think they would be discussing. Now one thing we must realise is that terrorist for one Nation might be freedom fighters for others. If War is imposed on you by a gigantic Military power and you stand against iut it does not make you a terrorist. If you read history you will know that history is aklways biased towards the mighty and victorious. It is not always the representative of the facts. Please think twice before calling muslims terrorists because I hate Bush and I think he is a terrorist but I still dont call every christian terrorist. Muslims if at all extremists are not the only peple with extreme views in this world but WHY are they being singled out!!!!!!! This is the role that western media has plaed over the years and this has led to the isolation of Muslims from the rest of the world. Now you call them whatever its like you put a tape on someone's face and start calling him names and then say " look he is quiet that proves he is what I claim he is" GImme a break folks!!!

To Steve: I believe people like you are threat to the world, as long people like you live there will be no peace in world.

To Carlos: Read Quran while keeping your eyes open and then post comment. Quran never Encourage anyone to kill other living thing. Quran Tell us" if you murder one man kind, it means you murder all living thing". What does that mean?.. Man you are pumped by satan & Devil. And those muslims who preach criminal thoughs and blame on Islam are Not MUSLIMS, simple as that.

To Encephalon: Open your eyes Islam mean Peace, and you know what is the meaning of "PEACE", if you dont know the meaning of it then you have no right to be born. Islam has laws which are in interest of all mankind, you call the law of west as good as law of islams? i dont think so. the west laws are made by man and they are only in interest of that person who made them and in control of them.
Again you say muslims comes to your country, infact your government is destroying there home and that's why they migrated. Now list one no muslim country where is war and West are not involved? I guess none..

Freedom is not that you insult someone religion and there values.
Freedom has limits and keep it within limits before you disrespect your self in front of mankind.
Finally as long west have power there will be no peace in the world.
West involved in wars: vietnames, afghanistan, iraq, palestian etc more..

Open your eyes west is involved in all these wars..

The Scotsman's own "Report as unsuitable" about sums up the whole sickening conundrum with the all too suitable West. Suitability! A straitjacket is a kind of suit. So's a winding shroud. As for "reading about Islam," my earnest correspondent, let's start with the so-called Prophet ("Kill the Jews wherever you find them.") and end with the Ayotollah ("Islam grew with blood.") Nice. I know! I know! Report as unsuitable...

'Islam, as practiced is not a peaceful religion'. Is it your practice that leeds to this conclusion?

Islam is the last and final religion from God. For the times it was practiced completely in its social, policial and economic aspects, it gave the best to the worlds inhabitants. It removed the descriminations, racism, injustice and ignorance.

The believe in the Hereafter, Heaven and Hell is one of the fundamental beliefs in Islam. Belief in hereafter is sacred to all God-made religions.

Germany is already frightened by the rise of Islam as native Germans are producing children at a far lower rate than the Muslims. The result will could well lead to their being fewer Germans than Muslims in years to come.

We need to take a stand against ALL fanatical religions, Islam is the most obvious right now but don´t forget that a play in Birmingham was banned for fear of causing offence to another religious group. Also the a certain church threatened to refuse to send any speakers to Newsnight when their demand for school toilets based on religion was questioned.

Islam should be tolerated when it comes to people practicing it in their homes or in a Mosque - it is both wrong and difficult to ban religions. However it having a huge effect on every aspect of our lives from freedom of speech to terror acts, so we need to act before it is too late. This may mean protests against its rise in the streets etc, but it is the only way.

Steave,

You are right Islam has a bad face because so called Islamic world leaders who not faithful to Islam either. All of them are western agents, put by west at the end of colonalisum, no one cares what goes on in there country but keep a keen eye on there bank accounts and friends in west. This situation combined with new western target (ISLAM)after fall of sovient union has brought Muslim World to this day.

Can you please think why this all (terrorism phenomena) started to happen from previous decade after end of cold war?
This is all preplanned, how come All Muslims Existing for 1400 years suddenly became terrorits and everything you say.
You can not imagine the kind of suffring muslim world is facing.

You know what Allaha teachs in Quran
"killing one humen being is like killing whole humenity"
You know Allah ask for coexisting for all the religion in Quran.
I think Islam would be only religion to say that.
Only islam talks about women right even animal rights in quran.

Any one who kills in the name of Islam uses Quran out of Context. And this is mainly due to frustration that is creeping into the mind of Muslim World.

On top of that if someone starts to do such act as Cartoon, Pope thing etc.. Helps not any one.

Gordon,

I am amazed Just sticking with two sentenes told by some priest or rabai has satisfied you for the rest of your life. Just for once read any Quran.
Just read and think that a man you called "So-Called" prophet who did not knew to read and write could have writen this 1400 years back.
I am not judging you. You judge by yourself. Just try it man.

Waqas,

I don´t think anyone has a problem with Islam in Europe provided it does not alter the rights of other citizens who are not Muslims. For example denying freedom of speech or through terrorist acts. I acknowledge that the West has done a lot of wrong in many Muslim countries, but the citizens are NOT responsible for the actions of their leaders. Likewise most Europeans would not call for the death of all Afghanis on the basis on what the old Taliban leaders did to the US (via Sept 11th).

On the subject of the evil Governments, the people of Iran chose their current crop through a revolution. I admit the previous lot were awful, but you did allow the current people to set up the system that is in place. But even on this basis the people here do not hate the Iranians or want to change their way of life - we just dont want to be threatened by people who clearly are not of sane mind.

The people of the West do NOT want Sharia law in their countries, that is our right. However frequent calls for a Caliphe in the UK (through the Muslim Parliament of Britain) do nothing to reduce people´s fears.

Muslims should not be forced to leave their religion, but likewise the West should not be forced to accept the "Muslim life" via the back door. As someone pointed out it is a way of life not just a religion. For most people what we have seen of Islam so far has not led us to a happy conclusion.

Also for people to behave in such an irrational way on the basis of a religion which lets face it has some interesting parts is very odd. Also seeing children as young as four being made to learn the Quoran in Madrasas does nothing to improve the image - it looks just like a lot of kids being brainwashed rather than learning something useful.

I have worked and studied with many Muslims and have NEVER experienced any problems with them, nor did they attempt to convert me - for that I am grateful as not all Christians have been the same. Th

Pat 13 - well said - it is frightening how the ball of islamophobia is just rolling along and getting bigger all the time...

Many of the comments in these posts betray huge ignorance and are born of fear, esp those of posters from the US - but the US propaganda machine is very effective too - Americans on the whole are not encouraged to learn about other cultures ("We got 'em all here! Why don't they learn English, anyway? This is the greatest country in the world! We're number 1!" etc) nor to ask questions nor to think very much or very analytically... a dangerous combination.

As far as religious leaders or extremists representing the whole of the faith, I offer you the Rev Pat Robertson, who publicly called for the assassination of Venezuelan head of state Hugo Chavez. Does he speak for all Christians in promoting violence?

Maestra, he is a pretty vile man. However from memory I do not think he called for fellow Christians to carry out the act. He should have been thrown in jail though.

Justice,

I and others like me are not the ones who are the threat. I only ask that I am giving my space to live in peasefully as long as others do the same. However, knock on my door and dictate that I either convert to another religion or die will cause me to react.
Sure the West has been in wars and certainly not with the best intentions, however the majority of the wars the West has been in, it was to fight for an underdog who was being picked on by a bully!

Rod... hit it on the nail head. Instead of toleration, I think coexistance is more in order. My freedom ends where another's freedom begins! That's the way I try to live my life.

Waqas, you're right too! I think the build up of today's ism is more media hype to scare populations than to inform. It's an agenda I can't quite understand. Unless it to build the world up to a war.
I read what you are writing, but to blame the West for the suffering of Muslims is keeping Muslims from moving forward and attacking problem.

Question... where are the masses of moderate Islamist? Why aren't they speaking out against the fanatics?

Rod, well said!

Maestra, please don't generalize me. I very proud to be an American such that you are proud to be from your country (I sure.) I'm not thinking while I type that my country is any better than yours. Sure, I thank God that I was born an American, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to take the time to learn about other cultures/religions. We are engaged in an inteligent conversation here and I'm am learning from what is being said. I want to know what's going on and why.

El Cid does not represent the majority. El Cid, I value your input, but make it more intelligent that your last statement... ok!

A helpful thing in all of this (and it is hard to do) is to try and stand back a bit from your own point of reference and try to see the bigger picture.

Example - re: Rod's point that most Europeans would not call for the deaths of Afghanis after 9/11 - What happened? War in Afghanistan, and then Iraq, who had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11 - not much happened in Saudi, though, which is where the alleged mastermind and most of the named bombers were from - doesn't that make you ask some questions about the promotion (and carrying out) of violence? War is pretty violent, and lots of civilians get killed...

Again from Rod's post - about children as young as 4 being made to learn the Quran - how is this different from any other kind of religious indoctrination (or brainwashing) - hell, how is different from plunking your 4 year old in front of the TV for some fairly comprehensive brainwashing (and brain-destroying)?

I do not believe that 25% of UK Muslims "supported" the London bombings. I do, however, believe that a much higher percentage of Muslims, and many Christians, and quite a few Jews, and lots of thoughtful, concerned people, regardless of their religion, object to the West's hegemonistic intervention in lots of countries all over the world, which causes a lot of trouble, not only for Muslims... but it makes some people rich... and keeps a lot of people fat, dumb, and 'happy'...

I do not feel afraid of Muslims nor threatened by Muslims - I definitely feel worried about the increase in and the hyping up of fear and hatred of Muslims, though, as seen in many of these posts.

BTW, I am an American living in Scotland.

maestra... go back and read the posts... we not worried about the muslims. We're worried about fanatical Islamist.

Can you not tell me that Islamic children are not being taught to the West? It is my understanding that children have to recite lyrics in songs, passages in verse, etc. I can honestly say that Christians do not have their children recite songs/verse.

Sorry about the last post...

Children are being brainwashed into hating the West. They are being told Westerners are devils and Westerners are evil.

That's cool that you're an American living in Scootland! I hope you're having the time of your life there.

Pat,Waqas,Tayyab,Justice(!),Farrukh,Maestra,you are soooo right....
And among your merry bunch it seems not all are
muslims.
Pat and Maestra ,maybe.

Well,you dear sir and mam,are the very proof of
the superiority,yes,I damn well said su-pe-rio-ri-ty,
of the Western culture,and its judeo-christian
ascendance.
For one good reason : Self-criticism.

The self criticism that you so elegantly display,that
our Western culture so very often shows,and that is so BLATANTLY absent from any public expression of islam. ( And,unfortunately,private expression as well.)

And that is the crux of the biscuit.
When the Muslims will show the same self criticism
as the West,all tensions between communities will
ease,and we will be able to live peacefully as brothers.

Alas,pigs might fly over Mecca before this eight wonder of the world happens.....

Why are you people so afraid of Islamic fundamentalists(one who knows the fundamentals of lslam).you people separate religion from state because your religon is not compatible. Due incompletenes of these religions they are not compatilbe with state. Where Islam is complete way of life from Social Laws, War laws, Human Rights etc everything is part of religion. Islam is the religion where Human rights are more important the God's Right.

All muslims are terrorist but terrorist for those who are doing bad things. for thief a policeman is a terrorist. but it does not mean policeman terrorizes thieves then he is a bad guy. Think...............

Idomeneo's libretto was set in the years just after the Trojan war - well before Christ and Mohammed were born. There is no way that Idonmeneo - the king - would even have heard of Buddha. I'm in favour of freedom of speech, but suspect that the depiction of the heads of Buddha, Mohammed and Christ was intended by the producer of the opera to be offensive at least to some people. I think that it was also totally unnecessary as part of a reasonable production of the opera. There's a difference between artistic licence and the licence to offend gratuitously.

Rod/steve,

I think the majority of the western people has fallen into the trap laid by western rulers and now you people in fear keep on insisting that your space is not intervened while you are living with same Muslim community for so many years.

You see there was going to be some reaction is Muslim world after all its been done and western powers very intelligently redirected this reaction towards attack on freedom, children brain washed, lack of democracy, violent religion, evil regimes, WMD and finally terrorism.

Its all about power and control at the expense of labeling on community terrorist. Out of this frustration people should be expected to do what ever in reaction.
I believe you have done the same or even worse.

This situation is going to get worse until your forces continues to bomb Muslim countries directly or indirectly. I think its that simple.

wajhi,

It's fanaticism that is the problem. It's the "convert or die" attitude that is so threatening to the West's core values.

How can anyone claim in the name of religion to someone that's not of the same religion.

What the Pope said in his speach certainly wasn't enough to burn churches over or to kill a nun over.

I don't know what's going on, but my posts are not complete.

Maybe it's too early in the morning.. 4am

The reason for the growing anti-muslim feeling in the UK is quite simple to explain:

1) in Europe there is a growing resentment of asylum seekers and economic migrants feeding a general climate of xenophobia.

2) exacerbating 1) is that muslims (2million in the UK) specifically are now perceived as being a direct threat to our personal security as the bombs in London last year and the plots to blew up the flights last month and others demonstrated-the so called "enemy within".

3) although most muslims are undoubtedly peace-loving-there apperars to be significant cultural differences being manifested -in particular re freedom of expression which is as sancrosanct to us in the west as Allah is to the muslim.

Indeed there would appear to be a clash of civilisations taking place both culturally and indeed now increasingly militarily. This is undoubtedly attributable to a number of factors: fear, ignorance, religious intolerance, disrespect etc etc . Incidently Muslims are not the only religious zealots on the planet; there are quite a few in the west as well occupying fairly high profile positions of power eg Bush, Blair, Ratzinger.

The solution: I wish I knew and could be optimistic but sadly we are all mere pawns in the game .

Grabi,

1- UK is paying price being ally of US on war on terrorisom.

2- The solution: Your forces should not bomb Muslim countries directly or indirectly.

3- Its not clash of civilization its clash of INTRESTS.

39 Terry

Congratulations on the most sensible contribution to date to this debate. Trust all other contributors will read it and realise it brings it to a conclusion.

..Islam is totally out of hand.....its members show little or no humility but act great ...ARROGANCE....no one in Australia compared the Pope Benidict to Hitler or Mussolini as in Turkey or called for his murder as Sheik Malin did in Somalia.

The voilent reaction in many parts of the world justified one of Pope Benedicts main fears.

They show the link for many Islamists between religion and violence,there refusal to respond to criticsm with rational arguments , but only with demonstrations,threats and actual violence..and the murder of an innocent missionery nun..shame on Muslims.

They harp on the crusaders of centruies old to justify there murderous ways ..thank God iam not Muslim...

Shiekal Hilali ,an import to Australia, responds to critism by questioning the intelligence and competence of the critic ..who the hell does he think he is ..if Muslims cant fit into Australia ..they should go back to there 3rd world countries.

There practice of aborting female feotuses to populate our wonderful country with there kind over time is scandolous. They dont send there children to our schools and maintain an attude that we are unclean .God help the family if your daughter should marry into this sinister cult..be prepared to loose contact.

What i say to thoes Muslims who claim Alla is great...and that there Koran is peaceful ....why dont there Mullas preach peace ..they rarely if ever speak out forcefully against Islamic violence in the world...They always seem to blame America.

Is this silence because if they too fear for there lives or are they so brain washed not to really understand ..justice.

These things I know...
Some of Islam's teachings may not be applicable today. But Islam played an important part in human civilization.
Islam reared many great minds.
There are good and bad parts of Islam.
Repect should be given to people of different faiths.
Not all Muslims are fanatics.
My views are being swayed by controlled media. Or maybe my views are being controlled by swayed media... (Grabi... "Pawns in the game.")

"Example - re: Rod's point that most Europeans would not call for the deaths of Afghanis after 9/11 - What happened? War in Afghanistan, and then Iraq, who had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11"

Afghanistan looked after Al-Quaeda or more specifically Bin Laden. They were given the chance to hand him over but refused. The regime was also extremely repressive to the extent that music and TV were banned and women were not allowed a good education.

I am at a loss to explain Iraq, except that perhaps they were using a pretext to get rid of a vile regime. The Iraq`s can now decide who leads them, which is something they could not do before.

"not much happened in Saudi, though, which is where the alleged mastermind and most of the named bombers were from"

I find this as unacceptable as you(?), for that the answer is the usual US oil problem. However in terms of military targets Afghanistan was an easy option, and had little support from anyone. Therefore militarily and political it was probably seen as being easier to change things there.

"War is pretty violent, and lots of civilians get killed..."

"Again from Rod's post - about children as young as 4 being made to learn the Quran - how is this different from any other kind of religious indoctrination (or brainwashing)"

Well I was brought up a Christian and to some extent made to follow it till was I was 14 (90 minutes per week at Church). However at school until age 12 I received about 30 minutes of religious instruction per week then about two hours per week from 12-14. In the case of the later it was about all religions not just Christianity. The latter taught me a lot about other religions, in particular to respect their right to co-exist in my society and others. We were encouraged to think about the religions and question which one may actually be right for us. In the end I chose none of them.

"hell, how is different from

Frank,

You do'nt know what you are talking about sitting in your BEAUTIFUL country.
Ask any Afgani family liked by forces of your beautiful country.
You should also thank that you are not in AGANISTAN.

Waqas, and what was it like under the Taliban? All a bed of roses? I have heard many stories of excellent public services (water and electricity), an education system open to all and of course freedom of speech under the Taliban.

I am sure things are not perfect now, indeed far from it. But in the longer term if people let the central Government actually do their job rather than support the Taliban then things may actually improve.

Rod,

Again where you get this from have you ever bin to Afganistan. You got this what was fed to you.

You see that's what i am telling you from the start. Your govenent sit qutiely when it comes to Palestine, Kashimir, Checheney but talks ages about Talibal.

You know who build taliban you know who made Sadamm Hussain.

Its all maniputation of the facts to feed uncle Sam and left overs to Europe.

Waqui

1) Allies- there is an argument that both the UK and US are paying the price of being Israel's ally. Unquestionably, neither the US nor UK is being even-handed in their foreign policy in the middle-east and I think much more could be done to achieve a viable two state solution. I believe that the Palestinian issue goes to the very heart of the problem -however if push ever came to shove and we had to choose then I have no doubt that the UK would side with Israel for reasons that I think muslims are unable to understand -(and indeed many others too)!

2) I would contend this has been building for a long time-long before 9/11 and Iraq. I lived in Saudi Arabia more than ten years ago and even then I was left in no doubt that any final conflict or war of civilisations would start from there. We may have physical similarities but mentally, my view was that we are from different universes and dimensions. I have worked in countries where the people are buddhists, hindus and animist -but the difference with muslims was most profound. I found very little common ground but I have also worked with muslims from other places who were dare I say less orthodox and more "human".

3) A clash of interests between rival civilisations-Iraq was never about WMD or even oil-the real issue is whether Iran will get a nuclear capability to change the balance of power in the middle east.

Divide et impera -as my old classics master used to teach us!

Doreen,

Please read Quran just for once have a Highliter in your hand.

Keep highlighting anything you find inhuman or takes your freedom from you.

Scularism comes with a tiny thing called capitalism and then starts the power game and under which atleast one group of people starts to suffer.

Free speech argument should be used responsibly. There is no such thing as free speech anywhere in the world. Every country has censorship of some sort. All governments have restrictions on what we can say. BNP are not allowed to make offensive speeches. It is also a crime in Europe to give a lecture saying that Hitler did not kill 6 million Jews. Ministers tell us that certain things should not be said. So, please, stop banging the "freedom of expression" drum when muslims find certain things offensive to their society. We all find many things highly insulting. We should not have standards rules for different communites. Its disgraceful.

Waqas I'l try and see if I can get my hands on a Quran and have a look. People will always suffer, whether it is under capitalism, communism or Islam. That is the nature of the beast, ie human nature. I would much rather live in Glasgow, where it is violent and women are sexually assaulted, than in a country where it is patriarchal and I am a second class citizen. Like say Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. As I have said before I have heard young Muslim women say that they wear the headscarf to protect them from men. But surely the intelligent answer to that is well, the problem lies with men and not women.....if women feel that they have to protect themselves. I realise a lot of this is cultural rather then religious but I will never visit any country where I cannot drive a car or takes even more of my freedom from me. I am not saying I am free in the West, not when I am afraid to walk past men in the street at night, but I have a lot more freedom than I would in certain other countries in the world.

To Justice,

You say “Quran never Encourage anyone to kill other living thing. Quran Tell us" if you murder one man kind, it means you murder all living thing"”

This simply is not true. The Qur’an contains repeated calls to kill such as:

Qur’an 9.5: "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

To avoid integration with non-Muslims:

Qur’an 3:28: "Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

To fight non-Muslims:

Qur’an 9:29: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

And to oppress and beat women:

Qur’an 4:34: "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

And if you have read the Qur’an you will know that this is just a very small selection of possible surah I could have used. You would also know about the principle of abrogation, by which chronologically later verses abrogate earlier verses. A majority of the so called peaceful verses o

Lol,, ANSWER ME ! question???
ISlam teaches that their religion is the only tru religion and all other faiths are false,, Islam calls all other faiths Kafir,,which means sinners,, so if Islam has no good words for other religions what good is it goning to do for other people other than islamists,,
other faiths teach love and equality for all people and other faiths,, but islam dose not !! i teaches that their faith is the only true faith!!
so if a faith teaches that you are right and all others are sinners,, what good is that faith going to do for people it clases as sinners ?? NONE as you can see today in the world!!
This is not the 1st time islam has tryed to kill inocent people look into history they have been at it since the start of time

Choose,

You are misleading everyone by quoting versers out of context and do'nt know the interpretaion. These verses are for a specify time period and do'nt apply in certain condations.

This will answer your questions about women rights: For rest you can also find one.

http://www.uctis.za.org/html/women_s_rights.html

Western media with all its brians only comes up with these verses for diffrent meaning then what you use for propoganda.

Rather quoting things from some where else why do'nt you read quran for your self.
Try to do it once. Just once

King,

Only BBC, CNN, Fox, Sky will show muslims as terrorits. Are you forgeting IRA, Tamil tigers, Bush administration. Hitler.

"terrorists are muslim" that is what you think.

Try to have little bit of open mind.

56 Doreen -gosh what quaint names you have in Scotchland-do I detect a hint of jealousy -perhaps because Charlton Heston portrayed me in a Holywood extravaganza!!

Waqas,

No but I know a few who have been on humanitarian missions. They tell many interesting stories of how most people there are quite grateful of the change but fear what is going on, but above all just want a normal life.

Actually this is not quite true. We sat on the sidelines when it came to the Taliban until Sept 11th, i.e. when they struck the US.

There had been terrorist attacks by Al-Quaeda before Sept 11th, for example the embassy bombings in Africa. These were carried out due to the disgust of having US soldiers on Saudi (read Holy) land. At no time did Al-Quaeda during this time have any excuse not even Palistine when it came to causing untold terror on many innocent people.

So lets see, Spain helps the Isreali´s therefore it was ok to set of bombs in Madrid? It is ok for people to try and set of bombs in Germany on trains - I was on the trains in Germany (in the same area) around the time this was going on. Likewise I was in Strasbourg when there was a serious security alert there - terrorists were going to blow up the Xmas market. In all cases these countries had absolutely nothing to do with Palistine! In the later cases the (previous) Governments had even condemned US policy. However I guess it was just because a few "holy warriors" were not too good at geography and mistook Spain, Germany and France for the US.

I am sure there is genuine anger, and when it comes to the treatment of the Palistinians I am very sympathetic. However a few less bombs across the world would probably get more support for the cause than using that as a pretext!

There are two wars going on here, those who have a genuine political cause (i.e. Palistine) and those who are simply out to cause trouble for the infidels. Sadly its too easy to get those two groups confused. However in either case violence is NOT the answer.

Waqas,

Secularism is not relation to capitalism or any other political (economic) movement. It is about respecting all religions but making sure the laws are not based on religion. It even ensures those with no religion are protected. Where is the harm in that?

Continuing from comment #57:

The same law that leads to Iran’s penal code and Article 104 of that code which states that the stones used to kill a woman should be "not so large that they would kill a woman too quickly, nor so small that they would fail to cause serious injury or pain".

And finally you talk about the west being involved in wars and utterly fail to admit that Islam is an expansionist ideology. It is, according to the Qur’an, the duty of every Muslim to play their role in Jihad until every single person on the planet is either Muslim, dead or reduced to dhimmitude (a protected slave paying a special tax for protection). Islam started this way. Islam continues this way, but Muslims don’t like to recognise that it was Muslims themselves, Muhammad in fact, that first invaded Europe.

So open your eyes and stop lying to the people of the west. Islam is a barbaric cancer and the west had better stand up to it, not just for their own future but for the future and freedom of every single person on this earth. To start with we should stand up for the 800 million women world wide that are subject to oppression, violence, rape, and murder within the law and living standards provided by their “religion”. We should think of their children, the coming generations that will live, suffer and die under the brutal reign of ancient barbarism if we don’t have the courage to stand up for only freedom of speech.

Islam is fascism. Islam is violence. It gives no respect. It deserves no respect. Freedom of speech is hated so much by Islamists because freedom of speech allows people to call Islam what it is. Islam is unthinking viciousness and oppression based on the lies of an ancient murderer.

Its a healthy debate but boy, does it bring out the worst and best in everybody!
I was born a Muslim but stopped practising, not because I 'found' a new religion, but because I found out that religion in its basic form is organised thuggery and blackmail.
I believe in respect for all, human or animal and an understanding of wrong and right.
Not one of you has seen, talked to or shared a cup of coffee with either God, Muhammed, Jesus or Mozart so lets not be in a position to judge.
We follow books that have been written so if I choose to follow the Book of Cosmo and its ethics, please dont bash me as as a fanatical follower of The Book of Hello!!

To Waqas (comment #60),

I've read the Qur'an and a great deal of haddith. I also follow news relating to the mistreatment of women and I follow that up with research into the law and origin of law used to justify or excuse such actions. I do not speak form a position of ignorant bias but from a position of informed opposition. Is all of the Qur'an and all of the ahadtih out of context? I think not. Before you try to make a case that I have taken anything out of context please give me one example of a muslim society that can demonstrate that?

Also, in your comment #61 you say"Only BBC, CNN, Fox, Sky will show muslims as terrorits."

Actually the BBC hired the ex-head of al:-jazeera to train their reporters on standards. The result is that the BBC virtually never use the words "msulim" and "terrorist" in the same report, repeatedly refer to mulsim terror suspects as simply "asian" and have a nasty habit of stealth editing reports in which they have blatantly lied in support of Muslim terrorists to try to reduce the storm they face over bloggers catching them out.

I write about this at times on my blog which is linked to from my name and Iwould highly recommend you check out the following blogs which either deal directly with media (mostly BBC) pro-terrorist bias or often cover the topic in significant detail:

http://www.biased-bbc.blogspot.com/
http://thisongoingwar.blogspot.com/
http://ussneverdock.blogspot.com/

To find out something earth shattering about media bias that the MSM have failed to adequately report check out this link:

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/corruption-of-me...<

Waqas!!!

dont quote other organisations if you dont know what theis goals and targets were

IRA non existent and more and only targeted military targets ,,Hitler is dead because of the coalition back in ww2,,,, Islamists are killing any one man woman and child and now they have started to kill themselves,, and y shouldnt chossen not quote from your quran,, it dose state that and therefore is valid in context,, ,, the pope quoted a 14 cebntury text which was true in saying that mohamed spread his faith by the sowrd ,, look in india when muslims killed all hindus for not converting to islam !! do you not know your own history??

Light ,,i seems as you r the enlightened 1,,,by rejecting a faith that teaches hatred and barbaric practices,, if islam is so peacfull as all claim ,, then what the heck is a fatwa?? its a death warrent for sinners!!!
now thats what i call a peacfull religion that is tolerent and loving!!!!!!
you just have to look @ salman rusdie!!!
and his book the SATANIC VERSES ,, he must have realised what islam teaches and tryed to warn the world of muslims,, then he also had a fatwa from the so-called peacefull religion islam!!!! yea right

So, What else is new?

After Theo van Gogh's movie 'Submission' - in which he critisized the treatment of women in Islam - he was murdered by a Muslim. [shot in the leg 7 times, nearly decapitated and a knife in the belly]

After the Danish cartoons all hell broke loose and dozens of people got killed.

After the Pope's speech again Muslims rioted and killed a Nun.

I am sick and tired of Muslim-sensitivities which, apperantly, can only be solved by violence.

We need to stop this.
We'll lose not only our freedom of expression, we'll lose our FREEDOM, period.

waqas

You quoted hitler !!hitler wanted a single race killed inocent women and children ,, lied and decived to achive his goals,, this to me sound like what islam is trying to do today !!!!!!

Hi, i am not a religeous person and may appear as somewhat ignorant so i apologise in advance... but a few days ago, i had two friendly Jahova's Witness gentlemen knocking at my door trying to preach their ideas of creationism. I must point out that I'm scientifically minded and don't buy creationism. What i found however when i told him that i am an evolutionist was that he hit back with quite a witty remark dissing Darwin and made me feel stupid for what i believed in.

I was quite offended at this as anyone would be. I could have easily hit back by saying that i don't believe what is quoted in a book that has a talking snake in it! But no, i bit my lip momentarily and then forgot about it straight away. No big deal because im strongly opinionated in what i believe in.

Imagine if someone came to you dissing your partner. To some people, this wouldn't bother them in the slightest as their love for their partner is so great, and anyone else's opinion is negligable, perhaps laughable.

What im trying to say is that i think that this should and can be applied to everything in life and all religeons in general... if people did love, believe strongly and had no doubt in their religeon at all, anyone else's opinion would be negligable.

As far as religeon is concerned, each to their own but please don't be as easily offended by things such as plays or television adverts etc, they aren't intended to offend, so they shouldn't be interpreted to offend.

Waqas, out of curiosity did you chose to be a Muslim or was it something that was "given" to you at birth? In either case why do you still follow it now and did you ever question it?

I questioned my religion when I started seeing that although some aspects of it were beneficial, i.e not killing others I can quite easily live a life which contributes to society without being blinded by stories told be ministers. I am sure there are aspects of Islam which are beneficial, not least the ban on bank interest :-) But it is possible to adopt the constructive parts of religion without needing to agree with everything it says.

Several thoughts:
1. The real "clash of cultures" is within Islam: between the civilized Muslims who believe the 10th century was their Golden Age, and the ragged madmen who think it was the 7th, when Caliph Omar (whoi burned the Library of Alexandria) "wandered the camp with a whip looking for crimes to punish". I can get along with the first set, but never with the second.
2. In America free speech is regarded differently than in Europe. There is no right not to be offended. I agreed that slandering and misrepresenting a religion are morally wrong, but I will not support giving the state the right to make it illegal. The state has big feet and is too clumsy to be allowed the discretion to prohibit "offense".
3. If you want real peace with the West, then you'd better acknowledge your own history. Some of us had had our fill of it.

Let's see: Some here espouse reading the Koran to familiarize ourselves with the fact that it is peaceful.
Well, OK but how about the old saying that actions speak louder than words.
Let me illustrate:
Pope is shot by Muslim, reaction from Catholics is concern for his safety but no one dies.
Cartoons from the Danes about Muhammad, reaction from Muslims, at least five people have been killed in Afghanistan as protests against European cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad swept across the country.
Madonna mock crucifixion, no one dies.
Pope quotes 14th century material, Muslims want his resignation and the death of a nun possibly linked to Muslim outrage from same.
I could go on, but my point should be obvious to even a casual observer.
I'm banking on the fact that most Muslims abhor the above extreme reactions. If this is correct, the solution is straight forward, fix the outliers in your religion. Remove the Imams from your mosques that are inciting violence. Disallow anyone claiming to be a representative of Islam from "stirring the pot" and speaking of hatred, violence and intolerance to others and their chosen religion. And, as an aside, I'm kinda tired of being referred to as an infidel. If you are already doing this show us. If you want help, ask us and we will help you so you may practice your religion peacefully and coexist with those of other religions, agnostics and atheists.
If, on the other hand the vast majority of Muslims do condone such radical reactions the rest of the world will fix it.
If you don't accept our right to practice what we believe, I say bring it on, the sooner we get started the sooner it's finished and we can all get on with our lives.

Let's not blow things out of all proportion.

Listen, i will not stand for my traditions and my culture being eroded in the name of "inclusion".

If i've to give up Christmas, then the Muslim give up Ramadan, the Jews give up, whatever it is they do and we can all wallow in a pit of blandness.

That will never happen. Let me tell you - if MY GOVERNMENT ('cos this is where it originates) tells me we're banning Christmas Trees - they will pay for their folly and i'd urge anyone else out there, not to take it out on Muslims, but get down to your local councuillors office and get stuck in, because it is MY GOVERNMENT, pen pushing caucasians who come up with these ideas.

I remember the Birmingham City Council wanted to change Christmas to "Winter Festival" - idiots - thing is ladies and gents - the Muslims thought that this was as daft and unacceptable as we did!!!

It is OUR GOVENRMENTS who are the sheepdogs here and we are the sheep being herded down the lush green meadow towards hatred of Muslims.

It is a ploy that has been used upon populaces for centuries, they create an enemy, make the people think they're under attck and BINGO, we get licence to do whatever we like.

People, it isn't Muslims we should be fearing, but our GOVERNMENTS who are trying to change our traditions.

What of the Extremists? - Kick them all out - every single one of them - if a mosque is being used to preach hate - shut it down.

There are simple solutions our GOVERNMENTS are not taking, why? Because they want you (the populace) angry, they want you hating muslims, they want you fearing for your existence.

Why? Because they want you to fight. And you won't fight unless tyou think you're being attacked.

But ladies and gents - lets fight the right people - the GOVERNMENTS work for us, we the people, if they don't protect our traditions and our freedoms then get rid of them - if the next lot are not better, pull

As you've all woken up after my last post - here's more;

Why do they want you to be angry and fight?

Because the next hundred years will be about controlling the middle east - the holy sites - forget the oil - it's the holy sites they're after - and to do that we're gonna have to be pretty much p*ssed at a whole religion aren't we.

I remember people talking of the jewish holocaust, the words were "never again" - human being will never again do such evil to one another - this of course was wishful thinking or nonsense depending on how you view it - all we need is a cabal with an evil agenda, the means to whip up fear and anger through a compliant media and there you have it - scores of little christian soldiers ready for their crusade to defend Chritmas and it's trees.

We don't need to go to the middle east to safe ourselves guys - get down to whitehall and do what it takes.

#76 - you mention the pope - that was pretty stupid saying what he did.

the nutters who burn flags etc do themselves no favours and they should learn from their stupidity, but what they do in their country is their business.

I'm an American and beleive the golden rule. The golden rule is: Respect Each other, do not violate anyone's right. We don't have Christian Terrorist or Jewish Terrorist but we've lots of Islamic Terrorist. Be real! Criminal is Criminal and terrorist is terrorist, no matter what religion he/she follow. We need to think about ourselves and our faith. We can debate about the faith, values but we should not question about anyones faith. BEWARE of violating anyone's faith or leader of faith. We can live peacefully side by side with other faith if we follow the GOLDEN RULE.

If you cancel your opera for fear of offending a religion then you are a coward, and if you if you are worried about your freedom of speech don't, you let that go the instant you canceled the show. If Islam can't take a bit of criticism without shooting nuns and burning effigies than no amount of telling me it’s a peaceful religion will make me believe that it is peaceful.

The old expression "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" must apply if national laws and customs are to have any meaning. Of course there is the other well worn but sadly underused phrase where agitation and threatening behaviour are concerned: "You have the right to remain silent".

As the great prophets Simon & Garfunkel observed:
"One man's ceiling is another man's floor." There is no way to reconcile that and no need to as long as each man is willing to allow the other to follow his own perspective. Its when we get into a mindset that we hold THE truth and we have some special right to impose that truth on everyone else that we always get into trouble. No matter what the particular circumstances are the first law of peace is to leave others alone. The west has certainly not followed that precept - but then neither have others so in the world today there is more than enough blame to go around and to justify most any action one wants to take. If we as individuals don't hold passionately in our hearts and minds that others have a right to cast their lives as they see fit, then we will go through these cycles of war endlessly until one day we achieve such technical mastery of the world that we simply wipe ourselves out. The one thing I can promise you is that if you hate what is not you, what is different from you, you will always visit war on everyone's head.

Benedictus XVI may not be right, but today's Muslims are islamically wrong!

The wrong question is: "Did Benedictus XVI insult Islam and Muslims?" The correct question is: "Are today's Muslims entitled to protest, and to what extent can they be taken as the true 'custodians' of the system preached before 14 centuries by Prophet Muhammad?"

(first published in: http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/9-16-2006-109009.asp)

Less than a year after the deplorable 'Cartoons War', a false debate is reproduced in front of a multi-confused international community. The wrong question is: "Did Benedictus XVI insult Islam and Muslims?" The correct question is: "Are today's Muslims entitled to protest, and to what extent can they be taken as the true 'custodians' of the system preached before 14 centuries by Prophet Muhammad?"

For a war to be fought you need two or more opposing forces yet it can be started with the declaration of only one. This is what apologists and appeasers need to understand before they spout on about "justification" and our own blame.

Not just radical Islam, but fundamental Islam - Islam by the book - is an ideology covering many aspects of living, some of which you may admire and others not, and it is also an ideology of war against you. Islam requires war against the infidels that can only end once all are killed or subjugated. From it's inception during the life of Muhammad Islam was expanded by the sword. Other cultures were crushed and subjugated. You need to understand that that is Islam. That is the Islam of the Qur'an. That is the Islam that can be verrified in all of recorded history.

Islam declared war on everything not Islam. Islam devides the world into Dar al-Islam (House of Islam) and Dar al-Harb (House of War). The peaceful verses of the Qur'an are either directed only at fellow dwellers in Dar al-Islam or are abrogated by later verses speaking of cutting off the heads and finger tips of Infidels and enslaving them. You can't negotiate a peace with that. Just look at the Hamas covenent (their founding rule book) which states that progress can only be made through violent jihad and that Jews must be killed.

Wake up please people. Learn more before you reach a conclusion. Most Muslims might not know enough about Islam to have been made violent by it, but the more Islam becomes a focus the more they will. Islam has to be quarantined indefinitely until the day when those infected by Muhammad manage to break free. Until that day his followers will bring you "things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

The Qur'an is many things. The Wahabists are not wrong that amongst these many things it is very clearly a declaration of war.

Can anyone tell me what the religion was of those who are now Muslim before Muhammad came on the scene?

choose #85
"Islam declared war on everything not Islam. Islam devides the world into Dar al-Islam (House of Islam) and Dar al-Harb (House of War)."

It certainly seems that way. If true what are we to believe about the Muslims living in the West? Why would anyone who professes fealty to such a doctrine want to live amongst the infidels? Are they advance troops? That kind of thinking is a road to paranoia but it is somewhat perplexing that Muslims who hold these beliefs would choose to live in the West. Is this why they remain silent when they should be speaking loudly to condemn the atrocities of Bin Laden et al?
As I said before, When you hate what is not you, when you think you have THE ONE TRUE WAY and are charged with imposing that on the world you are a cancer on the planet.
Perhaps the best defense the West has is oil independence. It wouldn't matter what Muslims think if they didn't have the money to buy red eye rockets and nuclear bombs. Without the money to finance such hatred they would be insignificant on the world stage.

Who is saying we have to give up that best-loved pagan tradition, the christmas tree?

who cares as long as we have the old firm match

Islamic terrorist/extremists are not Muslims they are Bona Fide murders. The pacifist Muslim sits in silence when Suuni and Shiite die, the pacifist Muslim sits in silence when suicide bombers maim and kill europeans and others. So, why should I have respect for Islam. I am appalled at the way in which Suuni and Shiite are killing each other and that tells me that we have not got a snowball's hope in hell of having a dialogue. The fact that the UK Muslim Council has asked that Sharia Law be introduced shows that they do not have respect for our judicial system and if the law is allowed to be practiced then you will have a state within a state.
I would prefer dialogue but quite frankly If they are killing each other what chances do us "Infidels" have of surviving. Regarding the Opera.....Did any Christian or Bhudist voice his/her objections non violently/violently?

In Glasgow we used to switch the "Christmas" Lights on..........now we have the "Festive" lights. The dear old council forgot us pagans and christians and that we also have rights. Thank goodness we can Joke about it but it is far from a joke when our own culture is being placed on the back burner.

How cowardly of the Germans to scrap Mozarts opera.

Can you imagine the mayor of Riyadh banning a cultural event that might be seen as offensive to Christians??

Not a hope.

This is real appeasement.

We in the West are grovelling and fawning at the feet of militant Islam.

And the more we crawl, they more they will expect us to crawl.

In a Mosque they have a Book called Shara de Kathab,, Which is full of punishments and executions for sinners,, what kind of religion has such vial and evil book in a place of worship ,, Islam teaches that they are the only true religion and all others are fake!!!! im my mind its the otherway around ,, islam is the misleading religion and all other religions which teach respect for others no matter race or religion , peace and love and the true religions and if you take a look at all major religions only Islam teaches you hatred for others that are not muslim , how wrong is that?? the world should wake up and wage jihad on muslims the same as they are doing to us !!!! a eye for a eye a tooth for a tooth

Here is a statement from the sick islamic assho*e,
this is how the muslims thinks it is clear we have to unite to fight the infedell muslims,, how can they be allowd to express thir views and not worry and the west have to be carefull of what they say??

News reporter : So this fight will never end?
ABB=Abu Barka Bashir: Never. This fight is compulsory. Muslims who don't hate America sin. What I mean by America is George Bush's regime. There is no iman [belief] if one doesn't hate America.
News reporter: How can the American regime and its policies change?
ABB: We'll see. As long as there is no intention to fight us and Islam continues to grow there can be peace. This is the doctrine of Islam. Islam can't be ruled by others. Allah's law must stand above human law. There is no [example] of Islam and infidels, the right and the wrong, living together in peace.