More thought control-very soon anyone who does not conform with what is considered "PC" views will be taken away for re-education-a la the cultural revolution in Chaiman Mao's China.

Scotland/UK is turning into a really horrible place-unrecognisable from the country I grew up in. What next brain implants to monitor our thoughts??

Incidently does anyone really imagine any rascists/bigots would be discovered by this-from personal experience psychometric tests are fairly easy to fudge.

The police should spend more time, energy, education and resources on eliminating the "knife culture" instead of stupid ideas like this.
Has the Race Discrimination Board stopped race related incidents, has this stupid sectarian bill stopped sectarianism, when they still insist on a sectarian, seperate school system...no

I rest my case, M'lud

Not a suprising knee jerk reaction to this documentary that highlighted some isolated patches of non-pc behaviour within the Police.

Whilst never condoning any form of bigoted behaviour is it pehaps wasting money and resources to openly correct the views of the few. When perhaps the greater need is to police adequately the increasingly yobbish society. Would that be money better spent?

Come on, it is a standard procedure in the armed forces. Anyone who joins the army to shoot people is shown the door. I would think that anyone joining the Police Force to bash the local emigrants, delinquent teenagers, or just to get their hands on a tazer, would be given the same treatment.

Given that the link between holding prejudicial or racist beliefs and acting upon them has been shown to be tenous at most is it fair to be dismissing cadets on the grounds that they might hold racist beliefs.

As people have pointed out psychometric tests can be fudged (although they are designed in such a way that this is difficult at best...) but that is a possibility if someone truly wanted to join the policeforce to bash immigrants as Peter suggests its likely they could fudge said tests if they were determined enough.

Also to reiterate the attitudes displayed are highly unlikley to translate to actual overt racist behaviour. However it is possible that you could argue holding such biases already puts you in a frame of mind to accuse someone on the basis of their ethnicity/religion or similar grounds. Then again are police officers not taught to judge each case/suspect on its merits (as hard as itis for humans to do this) without falling back on stereotyped or prejudicial opinions? (If not one assumes that might be a better idea then sorting the wheat from the chaff prejudice wise...)

In short its fair to stop people who have displayed racist behaviours in the past (or whilst serving) from joining/progressing in the police force but really is it fair to say that because you may/may not (no psychometic test is 100% valid afterall.) hold certain unpalatable beliefs. Personally I think not.

In pratice Psychmetric testing is flawed mainly by it's environmental place of testing and the fact that a scenario is no replacement for reality. Moreove, psychometric testing is, by it's definition and conception, a tool of discrimination. These tests are used throughout many industries and negate the properties of being human.

All the comments here could have been written in the 50's.

I have a phone in my pocket that can take 1,000 extremely high quality pictures, it can record sound and the battery lasts for at least a day when taking lots of pictures.

The answer to police corruption, brutality, lying, sexism, abuse, ...... etc etc etc? Every policeman or woman should be made to carry a phone-type device so that from the begining of an incident until the person or persons are booked into the cells is all recorded. Sound can be recorded 100% and a grainy picture taken every second. My brother-in-law is a criminal lawyer and he says at least half his case load is taken up with the see saw of you said this, no I didn't, yes you did, no I didn't, ......

WE don't live in the 50's, we don't need retraining, we need everyone who is in the police force to be made aware their every move is being watched, .... and just what is wrong with that?

There are too many bigots in the police; but the solution is to change the society they come from, not the recruiting method.

Oh, and also to stop paying peanuts, so as to stop getting monkeys.

so you bar them from promotion, is that supposed to prevent the damage or undo the harm they can and will do?

I am a police officer, and if you think we should all carry cameras that record our every word and deed, I say yes, I'll sign up to that. Imagine how many guilty pleas we might get at court, and the dramatic reduction in spurious complaints!

While we are on the subject, lets make sure every member of the public is recorded on camera day and night - after all we are all equal!

David/11
I think the suggestion is that your conversations with the public would be recorded and photographed (presumably it's the other person who would be on your camera?), not your whole life.

You sound a bit cynical. Well, unfortunately there is a bit of a public confidence gap to bridge - how would YOU do it?

Aye right! MIGHT being the operative word.
In the words of Ian Paisley. . ."NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!"

Ole boys network you see.

Pschmetric tests ? load of easily manipulated crap.
Why not simply use lie detectors during the screening process for our boys in blue. What do you
think DAVE , too accurate maybe ? lose too many of the force ?. Will there be a list of questions aimed at spotting racist asian recruits, eg What would you do if a white suspect called you a paki ?, or is it just aimed at finding white "racists".

While were looking at police crimes, can we do something about offending officers who seem to get off scot -free when they speed, fight , threaten neighbours etc etc etc.Want a list of test cases Dave.

Whatever happened to freedom of thought?

It will be interesting to see how Mr. Thickett will distinguish between racism and pride in one's culture, religion and ethnic origin - Scottishness, for instance. Do I not recall that the last time Lothian and Borders Police used academic psychometric testing on their officers, they contracted the disgraced Professor Chris Brand from Edinburgh University who was not only accused of racism in his views but disciplined by the University for it.

David No. 11 your comment is ridiculous. Members of the public do not have the power to take away peoples liberty but you do. It is only right that you are accountable. As for this policy it is a utter rubbish and will prove nothing. However I would be most interested to see the results of the tests if the subjects were the senior officers of the Scottish police who on the whole were recruited in the 1970's when it was the good old bad old days of policing and where such racist, sexist and biggoted views were common place and did not amount to misconduct!

I want to add, despite my peanuts/monkeys comment above, that there are also many very good police men and women working in Scotland, and we shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush. If there was a method of screening which really could reduce the number of wrong-headed oafs in the force, then I'm sure it would be welcomed by the police too. And it should be applied to serving officers as well as new recuits, if the change is to be sustainable.

11. David, Erskine /You sound like a little hitler with your control freak opinions on how to control the public.i feel sorry for you .GET A LIFE .

Duncan #8 and #18 - You really have no idea what being a police officer is all about - by the way, since you're so knowledgeable about Lothian and Borders Police and you have been so unstinting in your praise on previous police related topics, I'm surprised byou used a phrase which has been outlawed by the Force's Diversity Code - i.e. "tar everyone with the same brush". Also why distinguish between men and women, they're all police officers, capable of attending to any task , apart from searching prisoners, regardless of gender.

What is this PC nonesense? All I see and hear is pseudo intellectual facism, lets drop the nanny state and each adult and child for that matter take personal responsibility for their thoughts and deeds, scary isn't it?

Bigots have rights too. Is it not bigoted to single out bigots?
.

I too am a serving officer. I would welcome the use of recording equipment. I and a good number of my colleagues would be more than happy to wear a camera that recorded every word we and the suspect said.

However, despite the assumption by some on this forum that the police would lose out. I know it would be a wake up call for the public and the courts. Who would then get a real picture of the loutish behaviour of some people in society. Note the phrase "some."

As for the tests, waste of time. There are so few racists in the Police that the ones that are left are clever enough to see through that rubbish.

Contrary to the belief of some of the previous posters, we don't sit around in those mythical canteens (that don't exist) all day thinking up ways of fitting up people who are not white, or making a list of people to beat up.

Also, I think you will find it is only the poor sods who have joined in the last few years that are on crap wages. Remember that idiot from Wales, not Manchester, that spouted all that crap on "The Secret Policeman," was getting paid peanuts.

#20, what is wrong with the phrase "tar everyone with the same brush"? I don't think that that particular saying has anything to do with racism. This sounds to much like the PC garbage we were getting for a while wherein you were not allowed to call a blackboard a blackboard (though strangely enough, you could still call a whiteboard a whiteboard).

This is as bad as banning people from calling Noddy's pal "Big Ears" because it discriminates against people with something or another.

Anyway, let's get real. Next thing they'll be wanting to brainwash us all to make sure that none of us have "impure" thoughts, of any kind.

#24, I didn't say that I agreed with it being banned but used it as an example because Duncan from Newington seems to think he knows about the Force where it is banned.
As far as I am aware the phrase originated in farming where a tarry brush was used to mark sheep and identify which belonged to which flock but I'm happy to be corrected. The Force Diversity Unit banned it as being or interpreted as being racist and much of what the Force did was over-the-top PCoerrectness. As Billy Connolly correctly said, "Political Correctness is the language of cowardice" and has gone too far. Have a look at Lothian and Borders' Police Policy on the subject on their website - even wearing a rugby club tie off duty could be interprteted as excluding some!! Crazy!

The article mentions bigots-would this new legislation also apply to membership of the masons and any formal Association of Roman Catholic police officers, which I believe exists in Glasgow-as surely these are also "sectarian" and open to accusations of bias? Or perhaps there is a uniquely RC way of policing?

Somehow I dont think so-lets be honest and admit that Scotland is intrinsically sectarian; from our divided education system up through every echelon of society.

Bill [20]: in previous police-related threads I have been vocal in my support for Paddy Tomkins, not the whole of LBP. That is because I have worked with him and know him to be a decent, hard-working and pragmatic guy. I have also had bad experiences with the police, LBP and others, and through other friends who are serving police men and women I understand that there are cultural problems within all of the Scottish forces that need to be addressed.

Incidentally, I wasn't distinguishing between men and women, I use the phrase "police men and women" rather than "police officers" because not all police staff are officers, and the problems run through the entire service, so it would be unfair to pick on the officers alone.

Finally your comment about the "tarred" phrase I used is typical luddite rubbish. I imagine you get all worked up about European banana regulations and imperial measures too. All straw men invented by conservatives harking back to a non-existent golden age.

Duncan, old boy, having served as a police OFFICER for over 30 years and retired recently, I am well aware of how the Force functions and accutely aware of the difference between Police Officers and Support Staff - Peter Thickett, in spite of his grand title, is not a police officer but a member of Support Staff and has no powers of arrest, cannot countersign a passport application etc. etc..
I also have worked with Paddy Tomkins, the Chief Constable and Police Officer (I'm curious as to your role with him, please enlighten me), and agree with your comments although his knowledge of Scots Law isn't great. Nor am I a Luddite but when the law specifies miles not kilometers, feet and inches not metres, tons not tonnes, pounds not kilograms etc., I do feel obliged to acknowledge that. So your attack is both petty and disingenuous and does you little credit.

As it happens, Bill C, I worked with Paddy on a range of equality and diversity issues as a community representative, including involvement in the drawing up of the LBP Diversity Strategy, in which you will find no mention of the canards of "tarring" or "nitty-gritty" or other such straw men. I know the staff of the Diversity Unit well, and your description of them is both unfair and inaccurate. I suspect you of being embittered by 30 years on the receiving end of the worst dregs of our society, and I do not doubt that it takes an unusual person not to become so embittered whilst being given lectures on treating others fairly. Yet, that unusual ability to continue to treat others fairly while being treated unfairly yourself is what I think we have to request of our police. It is a tall order, and that is why I also support calls for police to be better paid and better supported than they currently are.

Duncan, Your post at #18 contains 4 examples where the Diversity Trainers would pick you up for inappropriate language. Where have I described the staff of the Diversity Unit, who I know a lot better than you, unfairly or inaccurately? I have only attacked certain examples or policies, not the staff themselves.
I will thank you not to make assumptions about my service as a police officer and whether I left "embittered" or not. I happen to care about a job which has been eroded in worth and value over the years and which is, in my considered and experienced opinion, falling short of reasonable delivery expectations in operational policing whilst being embroiled and tangled in the ever increasing number of external pressures on staff relations and practices.
My I get to know, as a "community representative", who voted for you or appointed you to "draw up" an internal policy or strategy document?

Duncan, #8, 18 27 et al, having tried (with some difficulty) to follow your previous threads, I have to say you've copmpletely lost the plot with that gratuitous 'peanuts/monkeys' reference. As a (fairly) recently retired Lothian and Borders Police Officer, I take grave offence at you making such a disparaging and stereotyped reference to my hard working and committed colleagues. Like Bill C, I really couldn't care less whether you're Paddy Tumpkins' adopted love-child but you have absolutely no right to 'tar the whole force with the same brush', just because YOU have clearly 'failed the attitude test' on more than one occasion. And it's patently obvious you haven't got a clue about the organisation of Lothian and Borders Police or 'Policing'. I suspect you might even be a 'serial complainer' - have you ever wondered whether it's you who has the problem?

Duncan, I echo Bill C - what exactly is a 'community representative' - I suspect you can't hold any kind of elected office or you would have said so. So are you just one of those agitators who just think you know more about any given subject than the professionals? What a load of patronising self-important garbage - and Thicket wonders why he's got a looming personnel crisis!

'Policing by consent' is as dead as democracy; almost as dead as the dodo.
Should not a socialist government have respect for the typical attitude in Working Men's Clubs towards pederests, family values, unassimilated and unssupportive immigrants, religion, and above all traditional UK values, 'bigotted' though the supercilious, arrogant other classes may consider it, even though this government does not have the respect of a typical club?

Okay, I apologise for some of the language I've used - we all behave differently online than we do in the real world. I'm actually not a terrible person. I do take offence at being called a serial complainer and clueless, though I am an agitator and I've no doubt I can be patronising.

If two long-served police officers don't understand the benefit of community representation in policing then we really do have a problem. This idea that everything should be left to the "professionals" didn't work in the past, and community representation has very clearly helped to reduce corruption and discrimination in the force.

Of course I wasn't elected; on the contrary, I gave up my own time as a volunteer to try and make a difference. God help us all if the only people to give community input into policing were the politicians.

Again, I apologise for any offence. If this was the real world none of us would probably be saying the things we are saying; but I think there's great value in being able to have a dialogue here.

As a retired Police officer this latest move comes as no surprise, the Police service has become so politicised and populated by senior officers who, rather then concentrating on real policing issues, focus their attention on any politically correct junk which will enhance their career prospects. At one time, not that long ago Police recruits were taught that the Scottish Police Service was separate from political interference and that chief constables and administration of the law were independent from the political process.
How times have changed. Does anyone believe Her Majesty' Inspector of Constabulary sets of on his annual inspection of Scottish Police Forces without having been made well aware, by inference or direct briefing by his political masters, of the political requirements expected of today’s Police. Any Chief Constable who fails to show his active endeavours to ruthlessly implement the wishes of the executive risks an adverse report on his force and all that that means for his own career.
So, no I am not surprised to hear of this latest attempt to produce robotic politically correct police officers, that is the way politicians have been moulding the service for years.
The only bright light shining in the PC murk is provided by the superb young officers who actually do the policing on the streets. Let them get on with it.

Duncan, apolgy accepted in the spirit in which it was give.
Can you see where people in any profession can be wary of "community representatives" who are not elected and therefore represent no-one but themselves and consequently do a disservice to the title? In such a case, a community representative is merely, as you say, an agitator and patronising - so there we agree. Consitent with the Force Policy, even the use of "God" can be misconstrued or insulting to some and should be avoided so the issue goes on.
Over my excess of 30 years as a Police Officer, I have been honoured to serve all the public of, and visitors to, Scotland and I have made many firiednds as a result, both police and public. Friends of all religions, ethnic origins, nationalities, genders, orientations, political beliefs, ages etc. etc. and I have never had any problem presented to me as a result. As a Scot, I have been proud to serve my country and its people in that way whilst retain ing and celebrating my own culture, history and beliefs.
As I said earlier, the disgraced Professor Brand was the last time this questionable social experimentation was embarked upon in our local police - I hope they get it right this time and appreciate that ALL applicants for the Police and ALL employees of the police have the same rights as I have enjoyed.

Duncan, In that case, your "working with the Chief Constable" is, at best, an imaginative interpretation, is it not? You are, in fact, a self appointed, opinionated busybody who cannot leave community consulation to elected representatives like councillors, MSPs, MPs, Community Councillors, Parent-Teacher Groups, Resident Associations etc. etc. etc.. and you clearly believe you something important to say. May I suggest the word "Goodbye"

I don't think most police are racist, but like anything there are bad eggs. What is sad is that people can nolonger call a spade a spade, I spoke to one cop from London who said that on several occasions the facts were being hidden, in this case around 90% of crime was committed by the ethnic minorities, but no one would talk about it as it was not PC. This does not mean we should be racist when tackling the crime, but when you start hiding facts things are getting dangerous. Also it does a great disservice to the ethnic minorities as perhaps they do not understand the full scale of the problem within their communities, and hence cannot take action within their own communities to solve it.

Reducing crime is the responsibility of society (before it happens and sometimes after it) as it is as much about the police tidying up the mess afterwards. By the time the police are involved it is too late.

We do need tougher rules on the police when it comes to investigating them for bigotry, corruption and assualt on members of the public, or just being useless. At the moment they get away with far too much. But as I said those officers are the minority!

So, people who join the army to shoot people are shown the door, eh? I know of at least one lad who was in constant trouble with the law for almost psychotic behaviour. His life changed forever when a big burly polis got the better of him one night and and gave him 'why not do something with your life' homily. It turned out the polis was an ex-marine, and after a few hours talking and a £300 fine the boy was virtually on the next train to Arbroath bound for Condor 45. He is now considered a credit to society. I pass no judgement here, but would observe it provided all parties with a reasonably tidy solution.

I accept, however, that nowadays most people join the army to escape poverty and end up shooting people who joined the Taliban to escape povery. Pity 'that idiot from Wales' didn't do that.

The officer who commented above right. If you screen for 'bigots' you'll end up with a smaller but probably elite set of smart biogots, which is counterproductive at best.

"I don't think most police are racist"

This sounds like the first part of the famous "I'm no racist but" line, the second half of the sentence usually has some sweeping prejorative statement about how all "Xs" are stupid, criminal, violent etc.

Most police are not racist but many just take racist actions, make racist statements and discriminate against ethnic minorities - not racist at all - lets call a spade a spade.

Calum [38], unpaid work is still work. And it was hard work too. I wasn't self-appointed, I was asked. Goodbye.

Duncan, Why don't you stand for office in one of the many legitimate and recognised community groups in Newington rather than acting in isolation, it would carry more weight to your opinions rather than being seen as some lone raver. I'm sure you're well intentioned but give it a go .... you may be surprised.
Can anyone answer the following ........how can this Thickett fellow represent the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland when he isn't one? Is he a mandarin, a plant from the Executive, the minute clerk to a committee? What is he?

Well, Duncan - at least you know what it's like to have your head bitten off for one careless remark. And you had the luxury of thinking about it before you 'sent' - a luxury denied daily to thousands of decent young cops, striving to deliver a public service despite the attentions of self-confessed patronising agitators like yourself, ready to Complain at the merest imagination of a slight. Encouraged by rubbish like this article, kite flying by Thickett who knows nothing and cares less about the Police Service, and who wouldn't know an angry man if he found one in his soup. So 'policing' is too important to be left to professionals, eh - does that also apply to Doctors, Road Engineers, Gas Fitters, Social Workers, Teachers, Bank Managers? - how about you tell me where YOU work and I'll pop round and give you advice on doing your job?

What an interesting thread this is. One question I have. Do officers in the CID have to be less racist, less corrupt, less bigoted than other police officers, or others Duncan from Newington, because that is what the Secretary Thicket is implying. I don't think that would go down well with the vast majority of police officers who are not CID officers.

The psychometric tests should be applied to politicians and bureaucrats to identify those whose not-so-secret desire is to destroy what little is left of civilized society -- and replace it with the laws and rules of sharia or Stalin. Such Law and Order would then exist! To paraphrase Churchill's 'some chicken' remark -- 'Some law; some order.' But it wouldn't be 'bigoted,' inasmuch as it would murder everyone, equally.

Rod, @ 39 - by 'Tougher Rules', to address 'they get away with far too much' - are you suggesting that the Police should be subject to any lesser standards of evidence under Scots Law, or that police officers (and their families) should be denied their human rights (fair and impartial tribunal, etc) ? What do you know about the process of investigation of complaints? Have you ever been subject to the process - or undertaken an investigation yourself? I have, on both counts.
Are you aware that every complaint against the police alleging 'criminality' is sent to the Procurator Fiscal, for independent scrutiny, before AND after investigation? Or are you just regurgitating tabloid rubbish or what somebody told you in a pub ?

If I worked in the public sector I would expect to have the public expressing opinions about how I do my job. We need well paid professional police, and we also need to enforce a connection to the communities they serve. One without the other is a recipe for misunderstandings and discrimination. The idea that police should be insulated from the community they serve has been demonstrated (Lawrence Report etc.) to be very dangerous. With community involvement comes improved understanding and trust, and with trust comes easier police work, better clear-up rates and safer communities.

#41, well I am not racist - if you had not jumped to conclusions you would have seen that I called for tougher enfocement when they are found to be racist or corrupt etc.

However I fail to see why basic crime statistics are hidden? It just smacks of being PC for the sake of it.

If 90% of crime is committed by people from a particular group, then why should the police effort not focus on that group? That does NOT mean the police can make racist statements or take other racist actions, but it should NOT prevent them from investigating.

If a policeman makes a racist statement or action then he should be punished, or even sacked. There should be zero tolerance of it, however that does not mean that issues should be hidden under the carpet.

Come on, Duncan. Many of the contributors in this article have said what they work at or what they used to work at, particularly in the sensitive area of policing. Just tell Bobby and the rest of us what you do or did so that we can all judge your professional competence to pass analytical and critical or constructive comment on the history, policies, procedures orfuture of the Scottish Police. Oh, and in addition to the huge number of properly representative community groups with whom the police consult, are the police expected to chap every door in Scotland to ensure that everyone has a voice?

Someone mentioned lie detector tests as being more reliable then psychometric testing... I am afraid that it is markedly easier to train yourself to pass a polgraph lie detector test then it is to pass a psychometric test...

Also its worth noting that this measure could be counterprodcutive as there is some psychological research that suggests minority groups may hold more prejudicial beliefs than the majority (or minority within the majority who hold such beliefs if you prefer.).

As such if the police force applies these tests to members of minority groups it recruits, and the results of the afformentioned research are proved to be valid, then it would mean less recruitment from minority groups and perhaps barr them from promotion.

I firmly believe that the link between attitudes and behaviour has not been proven to be strong enough to justify this as a robust means of reducing racism or racists entering the police force.

#47. Perhaps those were the wrong phrases but from what I have heard, all too often and also read or seen on TV - in most cases from reliable sources (I do not even read the tabloids- Scotsman? ). It seems to easy to get away with things, or that the punishments are not severe enough. There are a few recent and not so recent cases in point - a quick search on the BBC or here should dig them up. That does not mean that they should be denied basic rights like a fair trial etc.

My own experiences are more to do with their incompetence or rather lazyness than anything else. That said I met one retired policeman recently, assuming he was above board (I have no reason to think he wasn´t) he did restore some of my trust in the police. He was also rather scathing about certain attitudes displayed by the current batch of police officers.

As I said in my post most police are decent people, but as ever there are a few bad eggs and those whoare not "bad eggs" should do more to get rid of those how are.

Sorry Bill, don't understand - what information are you lacking? I've told you my involvement with policing, I was a community rep working with the LBP Diversity Unit and its predecessors. Like anyone else I'm not about to post personally identifying information to an internet message board. It's not just retired policemen around here you know - there's some right funny sorts too. :-)

A "proof" of bigotry shouldn't be having to encourage, nor discourage, your grand-daughter towards interracial dating, etc. Nor should a man be held to "unfair religious beliefs" if he refuses to have FGM done to his daughters, doesn't participate in Ramadam, etc.

We Anglo-Saxons should be judged as being fair when we allow other races to be treated fairly, and considerately, without having to inter-marry with them, as then our prodigy are no longer Anglo-Saxons by definition. Additionally, we, as members of the Western, or Judeo-Christian culture, should be judged as being fair when we allow other religions to be treated fairly, and considerately, without having to practice FGM, whirling as do the Dirvershers, or Yoga for enlightenment, etc. ... or else we are deigning our own beliefs, and by definition no longer being what we are.

In short, our culture is successful, and vibrant. It's generous and kind. Believing that some religious practices are not equal to our standards is not only acceptable, but it's correct and good. And, wanting to continue our quality Anglo-Saxon race as it is also not only acceptable, but it's also correct and good.

But Duncan, the only one of the professional examples offered, not in the 'public sector' is Bank Managers - that was deliberate. So why do you think that you are qualified, uniquely, to offer opinions on the professional discharge of their duties by only one public sector group? Why not pop down to A&E at the Royal, and give the Nurses the benefit of your wisdom. Or up to the City Chambers and tell the Council Officials what they're doing wrong - they have a much wider impact on all our lives. Or hop on the first LRT bus that comes along and give the driver some pointers - ah, but its always just the Police, isn't it?

Duncan, Just tell us what your principal occupation was from which you draw the experience, knowledge and expertise in policing and all its implications to be able to benefit the Force in its redrawing of its policies .... that's all. No need to identify yourself.
What are you....butcher, baker, candlestickmaker?
Lawyer, social anthropologist, Professor of Philosophy? Traffic Warden, Park attendant, comedian?
And do the community of Newington know that you represent them? On an unelected basis?

Believe me Bobby, the Council Chambers have seen me through the doors a lot more than Fettes has. And the Scottish Parliament more often still. It's called participation in society. Now put your persecution complex away please. If you and Bill are going to continue to play the man instead of the ball there will be no point in continuing this discussion.

Like it or not though pyschometric testing is not the answer. Its widely proven thats its not suitable for screening people and even when run by highly qualified medical staff. People willing to be bigotted are also willing to lie - and this makes the test useless.

I too come from a police family and had pride in my father, his colleagues and the beats/people the protected. They were respected by both business' and the community.

Now we can hardly get officers to get out of their cars to confront the culprits. Police go out of their way to catch people out - rather than catch the real criminals. This has been made clearer from all the bad press of late.
On the whole most business' and communities they deal with have lost faith with the system at present. They are never around when we need them... Sound familiar in your area?

Its with this situation in mind that the priority to fully vet and secure the best and most honourable people we can get to ensure the next generation of police can improve on what we have today.

Until we do screening to the extent of the security forces do - then we will always let the bigots and other undesireables through into the police force. I want to be able to be fully proud of our police again - but there is a long and difficult path for them to follow before that happens once more.

Is the phrase, "let's call a spade a spade" not racist? Should "black person" is the correct expression!

Correction (Clumsy me!):

Is the phrase, "let's call a spade a spade" not racist? Surely "black person" is the correct expression!

You don´t have to be black to be ethnic :-) You need not even be in the minority to be ethnic, for example the English are the ethnic majority in England, therefore making any Scots part of the ethnic minorities.

In my view being PC is judging and treating everyone fairly, regardless of minority or majority status. There is no harm in being PC if that is what it leads to. A Muslim, Christian, Black, Green, Purple person or whatever should never be subject to racist taunts. But if a group is responsible for the most crime then more discussion and effort needs to be put into finding out why, and most likely policing.

In addition to the 90% rate (discussed earleir) I heard about crime in London, it was also pointed out to me that within that around 80% was within the group, so had little impact on the ethnic majority. Surely therefore community leaders in these groups can see the benefit of opening up the debate on the issue and consequently getting policing targetting more resources and strategies to those groups. Preferably with officers sharing the same ethnic background - even if that is almost for PC reasons. But more often than not they may also have some important local knowledge.

Surely it is not racist to discuss an issue? It is how you go about dealing with it that is the racist bit. Yet discussion has been all but banned on this subject, as central government knows how much of a hot topic it is.

I have never complained to the police in my life. Every visit to Fettes, the Council Chambers and the Scottish Parliament has been by invitation and as part of a larger delegation, never as a lone "complainer" as you put it. And I have never represented a geographical area, nor campaigned on any local issues like road signs; Newington is just where I live. So many assumptions being made, and all of them wrong.

I thought we were meant to be discussing bigotry in the police? Or even the lack of it?

It seems it has sadly becoming a mud slinging match..

And the most wrong of the assumptions is that you are a "community representative" because you're not, and it was you who used the phrase. You have absolutely nothing to contribute to any issue concerning the internal management and operational delivery of policing services and youy have been exposed as such.
But still, before you finally run off, please tell us all what your profession, job, calling is .....because we police officers or ex-police officers (and my missus as a member of police staff) are intrigued. But I bet you don't. Prove me wrong.

Rod,
It's only mud slinging because this Duncan fellow has claimed to be something he isn't. I, for one, would be happy to return to the central point of the discussion, provided others do the same.

Perhaps I should change my login name to "Police whipping boy". :-) No, a community rep I was, and whether you accept it or not won't change it.

Anyway, I do believe that if we offered the police better pay and conditions, we would be able to attract higher quality personnel. The way to defeat bigotry is education, and the better educated a recruit is, the more he or she will cost to retain. So we should be ready to pay that price.

My particular area of interest is LGBT issues. There is a lot of latent homophobia in the population at large, and it is natural for this to be reflected in the police. But the police have a duty to serve the LGBT community, just as any other community. The NEOTS (National Equal Opportunities Training Scheme) training now done with all new recruits at Tulliallan and being rolled out to serving officers goes some way towards tackling this but these attitudes, like racism, can be hidden and run deep.

NEOTS, incidentally, is partly delivered by community representatives. ;-)

George Orwells book 1984 is here for all to see in reality.
Perhaps his dying words are more enlightening when asked about the state taking over thoughts .
Fight them .

I hope you don´t fall out too heavily with those who you "deliver the course" to Duncan, otherwise you may end up getting a free nights board and lodgings under some pre-text of the "Prevention of Terrorism Act". I would make sure you get rid of the bi-carbonate of soda or any other fizzing substance as soon as possible - just in case it could be used to make a bomb.

Rod, I know - and I love baby milk too, but the buggers won't let me take it in with me any more... :-)

(Actually I don't do training - I haven't been trained.)

At least you have now said which community you claim to represent. And you will be aware, therefore of the massive strides taken by the Police and L&B in particular in this area of previous discrimination and difficulty for some police staff. In particular, I'm sure you welcome the appointment of a L&B Inspector, Mr. Lyle, to head the Scottish Project on the subject.
But please, Duncan, don't ever make the assumptions you have, because that makes you as bad as the bigots that you abhorr. Police officers represent and serve all sections of the community, including LGBT, and I'm sure that you appreciate that everyone, including the majority, need to be heard as well. In true Scottish fashion, I believe in the words of Burns -a Man's a Man etc. etc.
Frankly, I've never bothered what sexuality a person is because its nothing to do with me and I fail to see what difference it makes on their ability to do the job of a police officer or other employee.

From the headline, I'd like to know which bars will be first on the list to be screened for bigots. First, no smoking, now no bigots - bars will close through lack of trade!

Duncan, you just can't help yourself making stereotypical assumptions and wallowing in self pity, can you? A lot of Latent Homophobia, eh?, so well hidden that only those with monumental chips on their shoulders can smell it out? That's no doubt why we need loads of advisers and focus groups and others with nothing better to do. How much 'Higher quality' do you want the force to be - the starting salary and prospects are at least as good as 'outside'. There's a higher proportion of graduates in the Job than ever - The police serve ALL sections of Society - why is it the self-defined and perpetually self-victimising LGBT 'community' always want more? In more than 30 years, I never asked any 'client' what they got up to behind closed doors - only the LGBT 'community make it an issue - And before you accuse me of being a bitter old reactionary, I have an honours degree myself - if nothing else, it taught me to recognise people riding a gravy train.

We know all about NEOTS. Incidentally, what do you say about the point made earlier about the Black Police Association being racist in nature? Good point? The Scottish Police Federation represents everybody and detests discrimination of any kind - why the need for splinter groups for Gay Police, Black Police, Women Police etc. all of which are discriminatory in nature?
Did anyone pick up the point in the article where it says that test will be taken by those seeking promotion? So, I assume you can't be discriminatory in a promoted office position but you can as an operational on-the-street officer where the effects on the public are greater? Another ill-conceived idea from the office clerk, Peter Thicket!

It's a common attack used against victims of unfair discrimination that any moves to bolster their support (like a Black Police Association, or a Gay Police Association, or indeed even having consultation with women's or disabled groups) are themselves discriminatory. The issue is how to create a level playing field from a starting point where barriers exist for certain groups. You have to use force to break down those barriers.

Calum [76] makes a very pertinent point - the Scottish Police Federation has clear statements about representation and anti-discrimination policies. And yet, at the national LGBT liaison forum, which ran for three years hosted by different forces each meeting, and was attended by representatives of ACPOS (the heid bummers), HMIC (the Inspectors), ASPS (the middle management), Tulliallan, British Transport Police and every force in Scotland, plus a range of community groups, the only organisation that refused to send a representative to any meeting consistently for three years was the Scottish Police Federation. They talked the talk but did not walk the walk.

I hope that attitudes at SPF have improved. The forum never stopped asking them, and including them in work. But sometimes these barriers have to be forced over, and just saying "we detest discrimination" isn't enough.

You know what the biggest flaw in this idea is - the fact it has been publicised. Now most psychometric tests are only effective when its not clear to the person sitting the test whats being measured (IE they are implicit) however by saying, in a press conference to the national press no less, that you are going to do this to combat prejudical attitudes then the test in effect becomes useless. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together will be able to identify what the tester wants from them and answer accordingly. Therefore all you really achieve is a record of a test result that shows a candidate for promotion has demonstrated that they don't hold prejudicial beliefs in a test that they knew thats exactly what it was designed to do.

76: I hadn't realised it was just for promotional candidates in that case it really is just a bureacratic joke as far as I am concerned. The test cannot be considered valid, it can be easily fudged and the whole thing is begining to reek of an outbreak of another publicity stunt...

Duncan,
The Gay Police Association attend the SPF Conference very year. Mr. Lyle was a local Federation rep. The L&B website does NOT have a link to the Federation but does to minority representation groups - please tell me why.

I have no idea Calum - ask David Lyle. I have no connection whatsoever with the GPA.

Did you understand/agree with my point about breaking the barriers needing some force?

No, I don't agree. Many times, it just needs the right key to open the gate. Gates are not always for keeping things in, if you get my understanding.

Quite right, I've never been a believer in force to try an win over entrenched views. Intelligence, perception, persuasion and encouragement is the better way to do it. Force just creates resistance, if Duncan understands that point.

You may be taking my metaphor too literally. Whether you call it a key to open a gate, a force to knock down a barrier, or the persuasion to win over entrenched views, making the change to stop discrimination requires an effort of some sort. That's all I was getting at.

In a heterosexist society, which is what we live in, the barriers for LGBT people can be obvious - like the Catholic Church screaming about deviants - or subtle - like the advertising which assumes every household is a mixed sex couple. The fact that the Catholics, for example, say "we don't agree with discrimination against gay people" means absolutely nothing when their actions speak for them. These gates/barriers/views have to be opened/forced/persuaded.

So it is not only right that there should be a Black Police Association; it's essential.

George Orwell is alive and well; he’s working as an ideas man for the establishment.

Bottomline - police persons should be the vetted correctly to avoid these sort of unsavoury traits that seem so pervasive in our society.

The use of Psychometric testing is a non starter - its completely useless way to sort out the mess we have in various services.

If they really want to know then why dont they put these people through a series polygraph tests and security service based interviews - ie do it properly instead of half hearted...

We're not going to be assured to get the best police force by one new method such as psychometric testing - are we?

60. Gervas,

is the phrase, "let's call a spade a spade" not racist? Surely "black person" is the correct expression!

------------------------------------------

The correct expression is:

Call a spade a spade and not a shovel!!!

(I assume you know the difference?)

Nothing to do with black 'persons' at all.

Which just shows how even the most innocent of sayings will be deemed 'racist' by those who have a vested interest in continuing 'racism'.

Think of all those lovely jobs that would vanish if some old-fashioned 'common sense' were to raise its head.

You will never get rid of racism whilst there are so many people making a good living out of it....they have too much to lose and will always seek ways to perpetuate it.

If not the unemployment line beckons.

I wonder how much tax payers' money is wasted on this 'racism' and PC twaddle?

Duncan - At the 'Diversity Course', shortly before I retired, I asked whether it would be acceptable to form a White Police Officers Association. I was told 'certainly not, that would be Racist'. So far, so good. However, since you believe that a Black Police Officers Association is not only acceptable but 'Essential' - for whom, and to serve what purpose? - maybe you would be kind enough to unravel the paradox? I was proud to be a member of the Scottish Police Federation - it served ALL officers, without favouring any particular agenda-group

Bobby, I'm interested to know whether there was any additional discussion at your in-service diversity training after you asked that question, or whether it was just stated baldly as you put it. I would hope that the trainer would have explained the difference between the formation of a White Police Officers Association in a society in which white police officers are not subject to unfair discrimination, compared to a Black Police Association in a society where black police officers are subject to unfair discrimination.

It is unworthy of you to suggest any form of equivalence between the two. Your white racial identity is not a source of unfair discrimination, and your suggestion makes a mockery of the necessary provision for officers who do suffer discrimination.

I suggest that you work on your empathy. Can you imagine being the only black officer in a unit in a Scottish force? Would you feel supported by the existence of the BPA? How would you feel if one of your colleagues wanted to form a White Police Association?

The key issue is that there is an existing imbalance of power in favour of, in this case, the white over the black officer. That imbalance needs to be tackled.

The purpose of the BPA, the GPA and all similar organisations must be to put themselves out of business - i.e. to achieve the change necessary to render themselves unnecessary. They have a long way to go, and with the line of questioning you describe yourself taking, you are not part of the solution.

85: peecee

Polygraph tests highly unreliable.
Polygraph tests easier to fake.
Hence polygraph tests inadmissable as evidence in UK.

Message ends.

Problem is, you get these nice shiny new recruits, jist oot the wrapper turnin up on your polis station doorstep. They start giein it aw this Tuilliallan pc psycho babble nonsense so ye hiv tae slap them doon and remind them thit wir in the real world here. Ye dont dis yer seniors and ye back them up if ye want to fit in. It kin git awy uncomfortable for ye if ye dont fit in.

These dinosaurs will aw be gone some day, in the meantime ye hiv tae weed oot the would be 'dinosaurs' before they get a chance to get in. How aboot the polis hivin their ain 'attitude test'. Its not jist aboot racism, sexism, homophobia etc. There are folk who join for the wrong reasons. Personally, I never found they had a problem with gays....now asians, that was another matter.

90% of crimes in Glasgow commited by blacks??!!!! Aye right. I've never seen any black neds on the scale you get in Glasgow or throughout small-town Scotland.
Most Asians are incredibly law-abiding compared to some of the white-trash who despoil our city centres with yobbery - fighting, puking and pishing all over the place.

Remember, many cops are bigoted against many other people. I come from an ex-mining town and remember the actions of the police against huge swathes of working class Scotland. Other people on the end of their predjudice include football fans, gays and lesbians, Irish, travellers, Catholics, 'lefties', disabled folk, women (even WPCs). PC depends on the nature of the Political cause behind it. Thus Tories are all in favour of PC regulations when it comes to limiting trade-union rights, freedom for gays and lesbians or even sex before marriage, which is un-PC according to the rightwing Christian creed we're all meant to adhere too.

A recent offical and independent report observed that many police were "little better than the criminals" they supposedly protect us from. Nuff said.

Well, what an interesting exchange and from a relatively impartial point of view I believe that the "police or ex-police" have won the argument hands down, Duncan.
When you give your opinion that you have to use force to change opinions, I believe that the counter from Bill C, who is obviously from the old school, had you beaten to the wide. He is absolutely right when he states that force will only be met by resistance and the way to deal with this issue is by enlightenment, education and encouragement (the 3 "e"s) in order to havel respect. Force and shouting will only bring counter-force and deafness. Much of your argument has failed to address that point and the old cops have shown a great deal more understanding of the issue than you have, I'm afraid. Indeed, far from the old fashioned traditional view that you seem to think that they have, it is you who has shown lack of understanding and respect by some of your less considered comments.
It would seem to me hardly surprising that you have met resistance at the Council and Scottish Executive if the tirade on these posts is typical of your approach. I really do think that you need to learn the art of subtlety and I question your contribution to Lothian Police if that is true.
Far from being monkeys and wrong headed oafs, you have shown yourself to little better than a school prefect trying to shout down the first years atAssembly,and looking like an oily tick in the process. You could learn a lot from these guys, Duncan.
For my own part, I have worked with LGBT reps and with individuals who have gender dysphoria and you are not typical of the reasoned, balanced views that I hear from them on a range of issues including health, employment and criminal justice. I think you need some other cause celebre to engage in.

Thanks for that character assassination Connor, you have completely ignored my argument (in which I strongly supported education as the form of "force" to which I was referring) and gone for the personal attack method again. Still, if you think that someone who wants to stir up trouble with a "White Police Officers Association" remark is "understanding", then that's up to you I suppose.

There have been far too many personal attacks in this thread based on either wilful or ignorant misunderstandings, including that one on me from you. Why can we not stick to playing the ball instead of the man?

Knew a lady once who worked in a law office as a clerk. After a few years of that she thought the whole world was made up of deviants and derelicts after seeing a steady stream of criminals being defended day after day. Expect police work gets to be that way after a while. To some degree, you are what you eat. That said, 'thought crimes' and 'word crimes' are nonsense. I mean except here where the rule is not to swear, be offensive or post comments that break the law. I mean, you know, real world, they are nonsense. Here it is serious because the business of the paper is words and so words matter. But in real life actions matter and that is where there are real crimes, not the imaginary PC ones.

The Police are supposed to reflect community values. Maybe we should ensure that we have the correct ratio of bigots and corrupt officers - I think we are probably below the ratio at the moment. :)

Looks as if there is likely to be a vacuum at the higher echelons within the police if the test is applied to all serving officers!

I served 10 years with the RN and a further 10 with the Bedfordshire police in the 40s to 60s and race prejudice towards those who were not English was rife but I cannot recall any one of us subjected to it ever complaining nor did it upset us; we simply took it in our stride.

Later, while in the prison service in Scotland, the same prejudice prevailed but it was not racism; the battle was fought mainly between the 'doves' and the 'hawks' and gawd bless those who were moderates (an alien concept within the PS) as they would be out in the cold and end to promotion.

Prejudice is an innate part of human nature and has existed since time immemorial and will continue until global warming wipes us off the planet.

Why then protect coloured races, females, or whoever else falls within the chosen few? Better still, make prejudice (in whatever form) an indictable misdeamour; this should then operate in the favour of all who have genuine grievances and not just the favoured few.

Robert, #99,

I salute you, sir.

Your generation gave up the best years of their youth fighting a war against the worst excesses of tyranny and prejudice.

That you can express yourself so succinctly yet make such a strong point in your final paragraph serves to illustrate the value of life experience over "idealism".

Bigots are bullies. The only way to beat a bully is to stand up to the bully. Society must support that stance.

More bosh and tosh. What about real stuff like solving crime and making the place safer. I totally despair - I mean, who is trying to impress who?

I got too much, time on my hands...

What are they trying to do? Cut recruiting in half? Perhaps the police can't do their job effectively without corruption and perverting the course of justice. The wider definition of corruption is any action that advantages of disadvantages any other person or group of persons. On that definition just about every police officer is guilty of corruption. For some police officers, innocence or guilt are merely semantics: At best an inconvenience, at worst an irrelevance. In other words, everyone's guilty of something; most just haven't caught yet. These are the bad guys. One problem is that authority will never allow a police officer to be convicted, however blatant the circumstances. Take the case of, JC de Menezes if you can. Police prosecuted under the "Health and Safety Act". Give me a break. Over 1,000 deaths in police custody since 1969, and not a single police officer convicted. At some point surely there has to be a "clean the stables" exercise. Namely, an amnesty for police officers and lawyers that "confess" so that innocent people can be released from unjust incarceration. All I can say is, I’m glad it’s not my problem.
Bigoted? Of course they are bigoted. With so many disparate segments in society thanks to NuLab’s multiculturalism, hardly surprising they target those their experience shows exhibit the highest level of anti-social behavious, and then exaggerate. So to some extent, their bigotry is self-fulfilling. "Those to whom evil is done do evil in return."
BTW, the notion of police being equipped with a camera (police tachograph) seems really first class. Do I detect a prime-time TV opportunity? And as another Internet correspondent mentioned, the public would become better acquainted with the type of "scumbags©" the police have to deal with.

Has anyone seen "Demolition man"

That is the Police service which we are trying to recreate. Fear of being sued is a terrible thing.

I recall the engrained bigotry of Glasgow's top cops years ago, when the Chief Constable ignored tumultuous protests and refused to ban a pro-IRA march. The day ended in violence, but he still declined to admit he was wrong, much less resign. He had eagerly caved in to his Labour pals' demands and banned a far-right parade, but the IRA were clearly more to his taste. That's the kind of bigot we need sorted out.

To all the so called retired police officers who have posted here........ go away! let's face it you joined the service in quite frankly the dark ages and are now dinosaurs.. and you know what happened to them. All this nonsence about knowing certain chiefs is patronising. You've hung up your truncheon enjoy your retirement, and relax safe in the knowledge that you got your rent allowance, reduced rate mortgages unlimited overtime etc. I feel for the poor sods out there who have clearly joined a public service run by out of date buffoons who pander to the tin pot politicians of this country. Put simply if any of you here had joined the service today you simply couldn't cope with its demands.

To the editors; the subject is not trivial, but your headline was. For the first several seconds I was wondering what a "bar bigot" was.

88. Duncan
...formation of a White Police Officers Association in a society in which white police officers are not subject to unfair discrimination, compared to a Black Police Association in a society where black police officers are subject to unfair discrimination.

It is unworthy of you to suggest any form of equivalence between the two. Your white racial identity is not a source of unfair discrimination, and your suggestion makes a mockery of the necessary provision for officers who do suffer discrimination.

-----------------------------------------

I seem to have read recently that more than a few White applicants to (I think) Glos police were turned down simply because they WERE white. One in fact received compensation for this.
No racism against Whites.......come off it!
Positive action/discrimination in favour of one group/groups must be NEGATIVE action/discrimination against other group/groups.
Looking at it like that you could easily say that apartheid in South Africa was OK because it really was just Positive discrimination in favour of Whites.
Sauce for the goose......?
If you can't see that what is happening is that non-whites are not being treated as equal but as special, then you must be blind or have a vested interest in inventing/maintaining so-called discrimination but then I think you do, do you not?

I think the concerns that we should have are about the validity and reliability of the tests: are they measuring what we think they are measuring and do they do that consistently?

Unless the people who developed it have new evidence, and a strong criterion measure to show that the tests distinguish between 'bigots' and 'none bigots' with some firm anchors into behaviouir in the real world I look forward to the first employmnet tribunal!!!

your police are not what you say representive of everyone! when I am arrested for stealing video of notty judge - no brazilian police lady to question me .
why I ask? You scotland police are to bring in police to question pollish people ! why no brazilian police to question brazil people- all my family are here-many more people from south america are here.

The idea of screening for promotion is not so far off the mark - but let's start further up the line.

If culture change is what is needed, it needs to comes from the top - so let's start with the Chief Constables, his senior staff, and all the political types who can influence them on police committees.

With Disability a focus this December, let's consider the attitude of the largest police force in Scotland. Focussing in on one particular subject, that of colour vision.

It used to be the opinion that the 8% or so of the population who had colour vision abnormality could not perform the role of a police officer. Now, that view has been proven totally wrong by an in depth investigation into the role of an operation police constable. The findings of that investigation have now been incorporated into police regulations.

Yet we have a situation where the largest police force in Scotland are maintaining their ignorant and prejudicial views and excluding those who have colour vision abnormality - it seems they assume the right to ignore regulation if it does not suit them - an attitude which comes from the highest levels in the force.

If someone with a minor issue of colour vision "abnormaility" can be excluded, what hope has someone with a significant disability have of even being considered for the role of an operational police officer.

And if those at the top of the largest police force in Scotland can wilfully ignore the statutes and determinations of a Scottish Executive who appear scared of confronting such a force, what hope have we against any form of prejudice and discrimination.

Associated Web Links
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/hi/news/5056143.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5260...

Sorry guys but if had asked me two years ago for my opinion of the Police I would have told you that they were a fair and professional service. However after seeing the other side of them I am sorry to say the testing should be done independently and should start with those in the job now. We are as tax payers spending a fortune training the new recruits only to turn the loose with the bad eggs that are already out there.

We have a culture of bad practice and no matter how many senior police officers stand and spout how the are behind the latest topic of the day unless those at the coal face are behind it then there will never be any change. We need to root out the bad eggs and start a new programme of retraining and the testing should be repeated every few years along with the a personal assessment system that reflects how the officer has performed over the past year.

In short we should have a Police service to be proud of, what we have is a complacent self-centred self-righteous service staffed by people who think the uniform gives them the right to act as they please.